Braves

By Lew

October 12, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

DOB-I kind of like the idea of bringing Glavine back. Tutoring James would make it worthwhile, if nothing else. Besides, I’m still not convinced Horacio wil come back strong or remain healthy if he does. David-I’m going to KC next summer, and a friend from Lawrence (yeah, she and her husband are at KU) are going to take us to the Savoy Inn to eat. Got any knowledge of this eatery?

By Shaun

October 12, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

The Braves should only sign Glavine if they can for around $1 million a year for no more than two years.

By Matthew

October 12, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

DOB:

I for one would love to see Glavine back. It would be great to see Glavine pick up his 300th win, Smoltz get his 200th, and Smoltz get his 3,000th K in the same year. We’re talking about two definite Hall of Famers in the same uni!

I didn’t realize that about the Mets’ trouble with lefty pitching, but with Glavine, James, and Hampton in the starting rotation, the Braves could conceivably start all three games with lefties.

The more realistic question is this: do you think Glavine would give the Braves a hometown discount of any sort to come back, if he was offered a two-year deal? I know some fans lost respect for Glavine because of the move to NY, but I would love to see him return and help the Braves wipe out the Mets next year. If he would agree to an incentive-laden deal, that would make things even easier. Put incentives on the deal for him reaching 200 innings, 35 starts, or whatever. That would relieve the payroll crunch if he did stumble, allowing the Braves to sign someone else if an emergency arose.

Great job DOB. Keep up the good work. it’s getting us through the offseason.

By Dave

October 12, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

DOB,

I’ve followed the Braves religously for about 20 years now and I must say I can understand your reasons for possibly bringing Glavine back. I must however say that I disagree. I was extremely disappointed when the Braves didn’t make the playoffs this year, but what I realized a few days later was that for the first time in 15 years I felt a new kind of excitement about next year. The prospect of breaking further away from teams of old and beginning the reload process with fresh faces excites me. I realize mainstays such as the Jones boys and Smoltz will be here as well they should, but the prospect of James, Davies, Prado, Aybar and any other new faces becoming mainstays excites me. I am a true Glavine fan, but it is my belief that the 10 million + it would take to bring Glavine back should be spent in other areas. If they need Glavine to be a mentor for the young guys then offer him the pitching coach job when he retires. In the meantime trust our current staff to cultivate these young minds and hand down the winning mindset that they’ve learned the last 15 years.

By Lew

October 12, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

Shaun-A 15-7 record with a 3.82 ERA and a 2to1 strikeout ratio will garner Glavine a good bit more that $1 million a year. It is also a considerably better record than Hudson put up this year, or Horacio, or Davies. Glavine is healthy, knows how to pitch, BC is familiar with him and vice versa. His worth as a mentor to James in and of itself would be invaluable, and it would damn sure be nice to see him win 300 for Atlanta. Probably wouldn’t hurt at the box office, either, which might just get the Braves a couple extra bucks later in the year to fill gaps.

By Matthew

October 12, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

Shaun:

Not gonna happen for that little money. The Braves are going to HAVE to invest if they want a return. As the old adagre goes, “You get what you pay for.” I think Glavine would be worth a little more, especially if pitching is the only hole that BC and JS are looking to fill. If we don’t need a leadoff hitter, as the brass has intimated, then we have more money to throw at a top-tier starter, which Glavine certainly can be.

What about this? After Glavine pitches here for two years, he retires and becomes the pitching coach? DOB, can they work that into the contract…:)

Go Hogs and Braves!

By John Adcox

October 12, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Personally, I’d love to see him win 300 in a Braves uniform, if only to increase the likelihood that he’ll enter the hall with an A on his chest. Glavine, to me at least, doesn’t carry the stigma that he seems to with other fans. When he took the stand he did in the strike year, he took a lot of heat that otherwise would have been hurled at his teammates. That takes guts and principle, whether you agree with the stand or not.

I think he can help us win again in 2007. It’s not my money, and I have no real idea what the budget ramifications are, but I wouldn’t hesitate to throw $20 million that way, since we’re not going to land a Schmidt or Zito, and unless someone truly knocks us over with a trade offer. That way, we can use our other tradeable pieces for a leadoff man and bullpen help.

And seriously, someone should have told me about these Dylan/Cash sessions sooner. This is one amazing CD.

John

By Homet

October 12, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

NO NO NO Glavine will FOREVER be remembered by how he handled the union crap he crammed down Atlanta fans throats!!!..Let him stay in the Big Apple!!!

By knowitall

October 12, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

I’ve always been a big Glavine fan and would love to see him finish his career here. That being said, I don’t think the Braves should give him $10M to return. Now if they could get him for around the $8M they are paying Smoltz then maybe. I think his price is going to go well above $10M though. He can always argue that him chasing 300 is going to put more butts in the seats so he deserves a bigger piece of the pie.

By knowitall

October 12, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

Speaking of the Hall of Fame and former Braves pitchers, does anyone have any idea as to which way Maddux is leaning? Braves or Cubs?

By 22oz

October 12, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Its a nice scenario to think of, i loved tommy when i was growing up. But we have other problems that our budget has to address, and i don’t see glavine taking much of a discount. unless he secretly plans to win back the atlanta fans by doing the opposite of what he did a few years ago, which is turn down the mets for less money with the braves.

By The Grinch

October 12, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

Glavine would solidify the rotation and give us a better chance. That said, my answer is: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! And on top of that, Hell no. Matthew, bro! Were you serious about him taking a “hometown discount?” This guy is the definition of what’s wrong with baseball (in my opinion) and I hope he never reaches 300 no matter what uniform he’s in. A guy who’s made a few hundred grand with the Braves and gets offered a multi-million deal from someone else and has to make a living is one thing. We’d all do it. But what he did and the way he did it to all of us, not to mention the example he set for kids and future players around the country…Benedict Glavine need not expect a hug from me if he comes back. I’ll boo him like the Phillies do Santa Claus.

By geauxbraves2000

October 12, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

Personally I would like to see Glavine back in a Braves uniform, but logic doesn’t allow it in my mind. $10M a year for him is way too much, if the Braves are going to spend $10M on a pitcher, get another power pitcher. The Braves have enough finesse pitchers.

2nd - With Pedro going down for a while, the Mets will probably throw the bank at Glavine, and he is not worth any type of bidding war. He was in decline when he left the Braves, and he may have found himself for a couple of seasons, but I don’t think it’ll last.

Just my opinion. I like Glavine, if he does come back to the Braves I will not throw something at the TV, but I am not going to shed a tear if he doesn’t come back.

Geaux Braves!!

By Ricardo

October 12, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

I really like Glavine and think it would be a lot of fun to see him win #300 as a Brave, but given our limited funds and the fact that starting pitching isn’t our greatest need, you can’t do it. Whatever money we have needs to be invested in the bullpen and in a good leadoff guy. When Glavine left he made a buinsess decision for him and his family. Unfair though it might be, I think the Braves need to address this as a business decision as well and persue some other options.

By The Grinch

October 12, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

Knowitall, the last thing he deserves is a piece of pie.

By Cosmo

October 12, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Homet, I absolutely agree with you 100%!!!!

By Head Coach

October 12, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

My sentiments are to give Glavine whatever the hell he wants. We would all love to see him win number 300 in a Braves uniform. The obstacle is the Mets (they hold a team option for 2007) and they are not going to let him walk. Smoltz , Giles , Wickman and Andruw’s contracts are all up after 2007. The Braves need to go out and get a young , talented , cheap pitcher (preferably a lefty) who will not be a contract burden for several more years. A trade seems to be the answer and that would give the Braves at least four dependable( three lefthanders) pitchers going into spring training. Anybody have a clue as to how it can be done ? I do. How to free up 18 million a season for Andruw Jones and sign him after 2007 to a 4-6 year contract ? I do. It really isnt that hard , it isnt. About that Marquis/Wainwright catastrophe of a trade….. Marquis is an aggregate 42-37 and has eaten up 200 innings three years(04-06) running , not to mention helping the Cardinals into the playoffs all three seasons. As much as you guys want to hate his 6.02 ERA had he made 33 starts this season for the Braves they would probably be in the playoffs right now and now Wainwright has overcome his arm problems and is contributing. Schuerholz is right , the Braves gave up to much.

By David

October 12, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

The Braves should NOT bring back Glavine. Tom Glavine was too greedy to stay in Atlanta, so why bring him back at his advanced senior citizen age now. Glavine is way too old to help us win games. The Braves are trying to go to a youth movement—-and if we are going to bring back Glavine, then let’s bring back Sandy Kaufax and Cy Young as well. They are both probably still alive and can probably help bring us back to respectability. No, forget about Glavine—try to make him a distant memory if at all possible. But you can’t fault Glavine for taking the money and running to New York. Ask yourself this—-if any of us had been offered $13 million dollars—-would we leave that money on the table and accept less to show loyalty? Absolutely not. We would take the money, even it meant playing for an Alaska baseball team in temperatures of 150 degrees below zero—we would take the money and run. So don’t fault Tommy for not being allergic to money. The big, green almighty dollar rules everything—-and I DO MEAN EVERYTHING! I don’t want to see Tom Glavine’s face in an Atlanta uniform—hopefully not in this lifetime. I don’t mind seeing Tommy get inducted into baseball’s Hall of Fame—-but I would prefer if he did that in a New York Met uniform, as far as I am concerned. I would not even watch the Mets in the post-season in a New York minute, knowing that that greedy Tom Glavine is involved. I like the fact that Tom Glavine didn’t gloat in the fact that he made the right choice by getting out of Atlanta to greener pastures in New York. Tommy is a world-class person and I wish him and his family the best of luck and Godspeed. But please don’t show up in Atlanta because I will never watch you again.

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Shaun, $1 mill a year, huh? Did you think I said John Thomson?

Just for some context or whatever, I should add this from story I wrote couple days ago:

After going 23-34 with a 4.25 ERA in a span of 78 starts from May 23, 2003 to Aug. 5, 2005, Glavine is 20-11 with a 3.26 ERA in his past 42 starts, including 11-2 in his first 17 this season.

The improvement began when he made adjustments and starting pitching inside more and throwing more pitches than the changeup and modest fastballs away, away, away.

But hey, I can see both sides of the argument.

Adcox, which Dylan/Cash CD are you talking about?

By David

October 12, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

The Braves should NOT bring back Glavine. Tom Glavine was too greedy to stay in Atlanta, so why bring him back at his advanced senior citizen age now. Glavine is way too old to help us win games. The Braves are trying to go to a youth movement—-and if we are going to bring back Glavine, then let’s bring back Sandy Kaufax and Cy Young as well. They are both probably still alive and can probably help bring us back to respectability. No, forget about Glavine—try to make him a distant memory if at all possible. But you can’t fault Glavine for taking the money and running to New York. Ask yourself this—-if any of us had been offered $13 million dollars—-would we leave that money on the table and accept less to show loyalty? Absolutely not. We would take the money, even it meant playing for an Alaska baseball team in temperatures of 150 degrees below zero—we would take the money and run. So don’t fault Tommy for not being allergic to money. The big, green almighty dollar rules everything—-and I DO MEAN EVERYTHING! I don’t want to see Tom Glavine’s face in an Atlanta uniform—hopefully not in this lifetime. I don’t mind seeing Tommy get inducted into baseball’s Hall of Fame—-but I would prefer if he did that in a New York Met uniform, as far as I am concerned. I would not even watch the Mets in the post-season in a New York minute, knowing that that greedy Tom Glavine is involved. I like the fact that Tom Glavine didn’t gloat in the fact that he made the right choice by getting out of Atlanta to greener pastures in New York. Tommy is a world-class person and I wish him and his family the best of luck and Godspeed. But please don’t show up in Atlanta because I will never watch you again.

By BB

October 12, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

I say YES, bring back Glavine. I was mad at him for leaving, but I am over that now, and would love to see him win number 300 with the Braves. I say give him a two-year contract, and the Braves would be set to return to the post season next year.

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Did I mention polarizing effect? Take a look at the posts so far.

By Alan

October 12, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

David, if I were GM of the Braves, I probably would offer Glavine a 2-year contract for 20M for all the reasons you’ve stated. I say “probably” because it certainly would depend on shedding folks like Giles, Ramirez and maybe even Hudson to make the move financially feasible. However, I believe the reality is this: The Mets will exercise their 14M option, also for the reasons you’ve stated - PLUS Glavine is their ace. Why would they consider letting him go? Especially when Glavine himself has said the only other team (besides the Mets) that he’ll play for is the Braves. He’ll be with the Mets again next year.

By BB

October 12, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Do the Mets have a deadline for picking up his option?

By David

October 12, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

BB are you serious? Please don’t bring that mutt (Tom Glavine) back here unless you are trying to finish last to get a high draft pick. I’m not trying to be a horse’s a* here but I am tired of seeing these greedy SOB’s just hang on after they are washed up just to grab the almighty dollar.

By The Grinch

October 12, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

David, I agree with you except for the predicament you propose. Of course we’d all take 13 million. My point is he’d already made 50 million (or more) with us so far, spent 16 years here, was a hero to the city of Atlanta and a role model for kids everywhere. By the end of the negotiations, we offered an aging pitcher essentially a three year deal for 30 million. The Mets offered him a three year deal for 33 million (with an option for a fourth). That’s a whole different ballgame if you’ve alredy got more money than you, your children and grandchildren can ever spend. Then it just comes down to doing what’s right as a man in your position in your community. What’d he do? Bought a new house in New York (which probably negated that extra 3 mill, especially with travel expenses), left his family here (his kids get to grow up without him around…great guy!), etc. to play for a team that every person in Atlanta who made him rich and loved in the first place hates, all just to show people that he’s a union guy. What a total loser. I’m getting sick to my stomach.

By Lew

October 12, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

The way I figure salary-After the Braves dump the dumpables (those already gone and Thomson, etc), they will have about $5 mil left over after paying Wicky and giving arbitration raises. Trading Giles bumps it to $10 mil. If you trade Ramirez (who I’m not real sure of, anyway) you can definitely have enough $$ for Glavine and a RH bench dude-especially if you trade Giles to the Padres for Linebrink (8th inning set up) and whoever else (if anyone) you can get. Grinchy-You’re my bud but, Dude, you’re wrong about Glavine. A rotation of Smoltz, Hampton, James, Hudson and Glavine, with Davies and Cormier in the wings is going to end Mets dominance. Even Hudson’s 13 wins is fine for a number 4 starter (at least at $6mil).

By Phat Bat Boy

October 12, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

If you brought back Glavine, you would be commited to Smoltz, Glavine, Hudson and Hampton for 2 seasons (assuming Smoltz gets an extension beyond ‘07). I wonder how that may impact the younger guys. James misses starts as the fifth starter. Davies gets caught in Richmond or is forced to work out of the bullpen in Atlanta. Surely, there are a few other guys who are 12-18 months away from competing for the starting rotation. Ultimately, I’m indifferent, but it feels like we would be risking long-term development and production of some of the younger arms for a quick-hit associated with bringing back Glavine. All of the politics aside (union leadership, signing for big bucks, signing with the Mets, etc.) I’m not sure it is the best baseball move.

By CC Rider

October 12, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

I would remind those that hate the idea of Glavine returning that John S. lowballed him until the very end of their trading figures. Rightly or wrongly Glavine felt unappreciated and despite a last minute effort by John S., Glavine took the extra money and extra year to try to be assured of a chance at 300 wins. I would like to see Glavine return get his 300 wins and pitch for 2 more seasons with Smoltz. Package Hudson, Ramirez and Prospects to acquire a young stud starter. This would free enough salary space to sign Glavine, and the space already created by leaving players and the probable trade of Marcus Giles could go toward bullpen help or a leadoff hitter. Smoltz,Hampton, Glavine James and another young starter like James: with our lineup and potential bullpen that looks REAL GOOD.

By knowitall

October 12, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

I don’t know that I can really blame him for taking the money. I mean, I know that he had already made plenty but still he had been on the decline for a couple of years. Then someone offers you that kind of money on what could have at the time been his last contract. I know the Braves upped the ante but his mind may have already been made up by then. Plus, he may have looked at the Mets as a team on the rise and the Braves as a team that had become rather stagnant over the last few years.

By roger slayd

October 12, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Ive beena Braves’ fan from Milwaukee to Atlanta and I really belive that it would be a big blunder to even consider bringing Glavine back to Atlanta. His success has been achieved only when the home plate umpire widens the width of the plate an additional two to three inches. Also, I place a lot of the blame on Glavine for the fall of John Rocker. Glavine was the player’s rep for the Braves and instead of trying to help the young pitcher and get him through the turmoil, Glavine be-littled Rocker and caused a majority of the team to do the same. He’s in New York where he wanted to be and needs to be. If he had been as loyal to the team as Smoltz and Chipper and I may think otherwise. However, he wasn’t and it is my opinion that we can do better without him back in Atlanta.

By Mets Stink

October 12, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Glavine would definitely help the rotation, and it would be great to see him win #300 in Atlanta, but I don’t think he’s the kind of guy the Braves need to make a post season run. Glavine was horrible his last few years with the Braves in the post season. He did pitch well against the Dodgers, but I bet he struggles against St. Louis. The Braves need another guy besides Smoltz who can pitch in the post season. With Wickman, the Braves have enough right now to make it back, but they don’t have enough pitching to go very far, just like every other year.

By Ricardo

October 12, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

If you do something with Glavine, you’ll need to be prepared to address Smoltz’s deal as well. If there’s anyone who is a “company man” it’s Smoltz and if you give Tom Glavine $10 mil per, you’re gonna have to give Smoltz somthing better than that to keep him happy. He’s taken a discount to stay here over the years and he’ll see it as a smack in the back of the head if TG comes in w/some new mega contract while he’s in the last year of his deal. Having said that, having 2 guys on the same staff both +/- 40 years old and taking up approx. 25% of the entire payroll is too risky. I say take care of the guy that’s taken care of us and give Smoltz a new deal and be done with TG!

By Head Coach

October 12, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Glavine reinvented himself. He started throwing a two seam cut fastball inside to both leftys and rightys. He already had the curveball , four seam fastball and change up. His two seamer acts like a slider and now he can come inside on hitters and still throw his other pitch’s for strikes on the outer half of the plate. Not many pitchers can say they actually improved later in their career , but Tom Glavine has done just that and he is headed for the Hall of Fame because of it.

By TJ

October 12, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

The point about Glavine coaching James is really the only reason to even consider this. There’s no other way to justify bringing him back considering the money he’s going to command. Although I guess his return would generate alot of media interest nationally, and fan interest (both pro and con)locally, which might translate into revenue for the team.

By ernesto

October 12, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

I personally like Tommy. I met him a few times and you can tell, at heart, he’s good people. But, I’d certainly rather see the Mets paying him 11 + million a year for a 40-year old finesse pitcher than the Braves.

By Mike from the coast

October 12, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

I don’t think we should offer him a contract IF we plan on resigning Andruw, which I hope we do. I don’t see how we can make the payroll work with another $10 mill for a pitcher. DOB isn’t Hampton’s contract due to escalate this year? Glavine may have more in the tank than I think but I think it’s risky offering that much for a 40 year old.

By The Grinch

October 12, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

Lew, look back at the first sentence of my 3:49 post. I never denied that. It’s a great idea from a purely baseball standpoint, especially if we can get another starter who might even be able to throw over 88 (is that a prerequisite for Braves pitchers, Smoltz excepted?) to complement him. I’m just saying, no.

By tyyosh

October 12, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

I’ll bet no one bashing Glavine had to ever decide whether to say no to a raise of a few millions of dollars.

There is one question that matters, and one only: Will Glavine coming here make the Braves win more now and in the future? If Yes, he should come back.

What’s great is that the Mets paid for him to reinvent himself! Now we can get the “new” Glavine back - the one who wins about 7 out of 10 games. AND, like someone else said, he can really tutor James and probably others. Seems like a real win IMHO.

By knowitall

October 12, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

roger slayd, are you serious? I know a lot of people are mad at Glavine for leaving for more money and I can understand their stance on that but to blame him for the Rocker situation is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a while. I don’t think there was anyway to guide Rocker through that situation. He has never been genuinly remorseful about it and he’s still walking around saying crazy stuff today.

By TennesseePaul

October 12, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

HA! Great Post DOB. I love Payne’s idea of a million dollar contract. If For some reason Glavine takes a million dollar a year contract, I’d probably be more hesitant. It would immediately trigger worries that his mind has ceased to function and that doesn’t sound promissing for a pitcher.

I say no. We have other duties and I’d rather spend the money on younger talent than throw it towards a money grabber for nostalgia sake. But, if HoRam looks like he’ll be out all of next year, I’d re-think it… maybe.

By Hotspur

October 12, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

I love reading a bunch of know-nothing, fair-weather fans who cheered lustily when Tommy G pitched a one-hitter to bring the only major world championship yet to Atlanta, then started screaming bloody murder when the guy had the temerity to fulfill his function as team union rep ably - as if any working person wouldn’t want their union doing everything it could to improve its members’ position vis-a-vis ownership and get more money for salaries. Oh, sorry, I forgot - Georgia’s a right-to-work state; jeez, Tom Frank oughtta come write a book about US. And then Glavine was so “greedy” as to accept a substatially better and longer offer from another team instead of a last-minute, “oh, okay, we guess we want you” contract from the team who had repaid his years of work and Series-winning game with diffident silence. I mean, seriously, Glavine-hatas, do you people actually bother to read the paper or remember the facts of what happened? ‘Cause you come off like a bunch of whiny, resentful, capricious dittoheads whose walnut-sized brains have been entirely wired-around by your knee-jerk emotions. You’d think four years would be enough for passions to subside and for ALL Braves fans to realize what we had in Tom Glavine, and what we lost. Apparently, however, you would be mistaken.

Nice work as always, DOB. Sorry the general tenor of the debate here isn’t up to the standards of rational analysis you’ve so ably set.

By Jeff

October 12, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

DOB…Where to start? Tommy Glavine’s fastball is what now? 75-80 MPH? Does management really want to shell out millions for a 40-year-old hurler with declining velocity?

Hampton…we’ll see how he performs when the starting bell sounds next April.

Hudson’s perfromance has slid the past two seasons. Will he go for the Trifecta?

Davies needs a full season at Richmond. The guy needs the experience, and he needs to acquire the focus and disipline to make his pitches work.

Wainwright…there’s no way I would have given up a top pitching prospect for any position player. I winced back then when the deal was made. Crying shame that the Braves have zilch left from that trade.

Hope Schuerholz doesn’t opt to patch up the Braves with a bunch of old arms. This team needs younger arms and a little patience. The “Let’s Go for One More Division Title,” rather than building for the future is a mistake.

By rammerjammer

October 12, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

DOB, it’s too much of a financial risk to tie up millions in TWO

By The Grinch

October 12, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

Look, if Glavine had just simply said “Y’all, I’m a greedy, greedy man. I just can’t help it. I’m like a reincarnated Spanish Conquistador; no matter how many tons of gold I have I just have to add more no matter who or what is in the way. I am what I am,” then I could respect him and I wouldn’t be saying what I’m saying. But what he said (after all those heartwarming shows filmed at his multi-million dollar Buckhead mansion showing that no family could possibly be more well-taken care of) was: “I’ve just got to do what’s best for my family.” Having your kids grow up 1000 miles away from you so that they can have 83 million instead of 80? No, Tom; you’re just greedy. Be a man and own up to it. Come to think of it, he probably IS doing what’s best for his family. I’d laugh my a* off if he comes back one day and there’s some dude at the house his kids call “Uncle __.” Anyway, I’m done for the minute; going to go see “Othello” at Oglethorpe tonight so I can’t watch the Glavinator. I’ll think of him every time Iago comes onstage, though.

By The Grinch

October 12, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

Hotspur, I’m not gonna bother getting into a p** contest with you, people who come on here ONCE and make insulting generalizations about people they don’t know aren’t worthy of much space. However, it’s precicely BECAUSE I appreciate what he was and what we had and the way he did what he did that makes me so mad. I gotta go or I’ll be late. Later.

By MGL

October 12, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

It is very bad business policy to hold grudges or burn bridges. The decision on whether to offer TG another contract with Atlanta or not should be based upon the costs and benefits of TG vs other options. I personally think that it would be a positive move if not too expensive. He should not be hated for his player rep tour of duty as someone had to do it. The New York move was distasteful to me, but I can put that behind me. Seeing him get 300 in a Braves Uniform does nothing for me, but if he can win games better than the alternatives, put more buns in the seats, and is affordable, it should be taken seriously.

By rammerjammer

October 12, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

Let’s try that again.

DOB, it’s too much of a financial risk to tie up millions in TWO 40-year-old pitchers, and Smoltz’ asking price will certainly go up with his next contract.

Let’s instead deal from our strength - hitting - and trade for a starter.

By John Adcox

October 12, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

Jeez, the blow to the Mets alone seems worth the signing. (Petty? Me?)

John

By David

October 12, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

I guess I’m still a little upset with Tom Glavine for leaving the Braves to pitch for the Mets. Truth be told, however, is that it is Tom Glavine who was the starting pitcher in the Braves clinching victory in the world series in their championship season of ‘95. So, it is the same Tom Glavine who is partially responsible for our lone world-series championship, so for that I will be eternally grateful for having such a wonderful talent as Tom Glavine in a Braves uniform. At the same time, if the Braves had lost to the Indians in ‘95 and during the Bobby Cox era, we had had no championships in 14 years of post-season play, the Braves would have been much more of a laughingstock than they currently are, although so many people make fun of the fact that the Braves have only 1 championship to show for 14 years of particpation in the post-season (the Braves futility in the post-season would have become even more legendary because they would have laid a big goose egg in 14 years). So Tom Glavine helped the Braves from being totally humiliated and embarrased for their post-season futility. I’d have to say, if I could ever forgive Tommy for leaving us, I would welcome him back in a Braves uniform with open arms—-but I am so bitter about it, plus with John Shuerholtz low-balling Tommy with such an embarrasing offer, that whole negotiations has left a bad taste in my mouth. I’m sure I will eventually get over it, but for now I wish Tom Glavine and his family all the success in the world, and I hope he wins a world series with the Mets this year! Good luck Tommy!

By Kaye

October 12, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

I say no to brining back players once they leave. We have done it before and it never and I repeat never works out the same. Remember Pendleton back, nope didnt work, Byrd back, nope that really didnt work. There have been others and I just dont remember a single one giving what we paid for. Byrd didnt give anything. So I say no no no. Leave Glavine with the Mets. Thats where he signed and he should stay put. We dont need him.

By gpburdell

October 12, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

As much as I would like to see Glavine get his 300th win in a Braves uniform, his time here has passed. The Braves should have never let him go, but what’s done is done. As far as Jason Marquis goes, he was never that good with the Braves and he is still not good with the Cardinals. He gives up too many hits and especially home runs. Basically, he throws hard but he doesn’t miss bats. It doesn’t matter how many times the Cardinals run him out there, it doesn’t make him better than he is…a 5th starter.

By Kentavo

October 12, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

Ya’ll are getting riled up about nothing. The Mets aren’t going to let Glavine go back to ATL - especially if they win the WS. Because if they win the WS, Glavine will probably account for 2-3 of the wins.

By Train Wreck Bystander

October 12, 2006 06:34 PM | Link to this

I think we should spend our pitching money on someone with a little better risk/reward ratio. I can just see us outbidding NY and then losing Glavine to a spring training arm blowout.

Let them take on that risk.

By krath

October 12, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

I would give Glavine 2 years for a total of 10 mil…. I just don’t think he’s worth more. He faded again as the season wore on (his M.O. the last few years) He actually pitched decently after he took the time off with the blood clot scare, but that just restates the point. He’s not going to be effective over the long haul.

He pitched pretty well in his start in the division series, but I have a theory on that. The old adage is that good pitching beats good hitting and I believe that. On the other hand, I believe that mediocre hitting and players who are pressing with the bat can make a mediocre pitcher look like Cy Young in the playoffs. I think more playoff games are lost by teams failing to hit a pitcher who isn’t performing any better than he did during the season than by pitchers who suddenly throw these “gems” in the playoffs.

Of course, the media isn’t going to say the bats suck, (unless it’s the Yankees) they are going to say the pitcher is great!

Now I’m going to contradict myself, Kenny Rogers threw the best game I have EVER seen him pitch the other night. I don’t think he threw a single pitch down the middle of the plate all night!

Ok…. I wandered off the topic a lot! Sorry about that.

Nope…. no Glavine for 10 mil. Not now not ever!

By Lew

October 12, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this

Dittoheads with walnut sized brains. I like that. So much more expressive than Neanderthals or idiots, don’t you think?

By krath

October 12, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

I meant to close with No Glavine for 10 mil a year. I would give him 10 for 2 years, but no more. But that won’t happen.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2006 06:58 PM | Link to this

dob was right - this blog is all over the board on tom glavine returning to the braves. journalist votes no. let those young arms work and let glavine pitch in ny where he is close to the museums and theatre and union halls. go for power pitchers. we’ve had a few developing and sent them elsewhere. now, carolina lady … it is not necessary to hold a grudge. this journalist has learned this journalist’s lesson. jimmy smith will no longer deal with you-know-what that happened in the early 1900’s at a nearby beach. it is forgotten. right, carolina lady? forgotten? now, baseball players flying airplanes - who are the pilots on the braves team. “uh, tower, uh, you know … ”

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2006 07:02 PM | Link to this

bake him a pie when he wins 300. mail it to shea. may be 2008 before he gets to eat the celebratory pie.

By Carolina Lady

October 12, 2006 07:06 PM | Link to this

Glavine: No, thank you. He made his choice. How many millions are enough??

jjs: hmmmm………I’ll get back to you…. or…. maybe I’ll……no, I think it would be more fun to…..well, best not, I guess. OK. You’re forgiven. Again.

By True Braves Fan

October 12, 2006 07:09 PM | Link to this

LET MR.UNION, TOM $$$$$ GLAVINE STAY IN NEW YORK, OR ANYWHERE BUT ATLANTA

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2006 07:14 PM | Link to this

Say goodbye to Death Ray. Kenny Ray was claimed off waivers by the Royals, and no-longer-a-top-prospect infielder Luis Hernandez was claimed off waivers by the Orioles.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this

journalist is ashamed - that was clearly a shot at uh, chipper and certainly, if chipper wanted to fly, chipper could fly. perhaps chipper would prefer an aircraft without an oblique wing. then again, perhaps not. it seems a natural that chipper would fly a clipper. imagine if chipper takes a round tripper on his uh, clipper. “uh, tower, uh, you know … ” now, more glavine … remember how the braves beat him up when he left? would you want to see him pitch to the mets next year? journalist thinks not.

By David

October 12, 2006 07:22 PM | Link to this

I vote “yes” for bringing back John Rocker, but this is only after he checks himself into a mental institution and comes back with a clean bill of health. I would say give Rocker another chance because everyone deserves a second chance. Here’s another idea: pay for Rocker to take flying lessons and maybe he will fly a plane off the Eifel Tower or something like that. The Braves have a good closer in Wickman—but Rocker would make a good setup guy— how about it folks!

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2006 07:24 PM | Link to this

kenny ray will always have that first big strikeout. he gave what he had and he helped the team for a time. success to him in kc.

By Jeff

October 12, 2006 07:28 PM | Link to this

Big loss there, the “Death” Ray. Can the Royals claim the other 23 relievers that comprised “Blown Save, Inc.” for the Braves?

By Snowball's Chance

October 12, 2006 07:29 PM | Link to this

I have been off for a while working a UNION JOB and have been too tired to post. Glavine would still be a Brave if JS didn’t lowball him. As stated the Mets are going to throw a big offer his way, so I don’t see it happening. I would rather see a power arm anyway.

By Carolina Lady

October 12, 2006 07:32 PM | Link to this

“kenny ray will always have that first big strikeout. he gave what he had and he helped the team for a time. success to him in kc.” Jimmy, that was very nice! (Every time I’m ready to take you off my Christmas card list, you redeem yourself!) :-)))

By Bill

October 12, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this

A simple answer, NO. They don’t need another soft tossing washed up pitcher. They need some young power arms.

By ernesto

October 12, 2006 08:02 PM | Link to this

Hats off David, one of the weirdest posts in my 1st season of blogging. Well done.

By mike

October 12, 2006 08:07 PM | Link to this

NOOOO WAY NEVER** Even the thought of bringing back the backstabber proves the point why out of town corporate ownership should never be permitted in Major League Baseball — Tom can freeze in the cold wrath of real Atlanta fans

By stew

October 12, 2006 08:37 PM | Link to this

Next year should be Davies chance to prove he belongs. If Glavine was around, Davies wouldn’t get his shot. What’s all this talk about Aybar or Prado replacing Giles? Does either of them have 45-50 doubles potential? I don’t think so. We have to keep Giles! Let’s dump Renteria and trade for A-Rod to play short. The Yankees are so desperate to trade him they will eat half his salary. A-Rod at 12-15 mill a year is too good to be true. He’s going to hit 700 homers before he’s through. Let’s get A-Rod for short and Crawford for left to lead off. The new lineup would be Crawford/Giles/A-Rod/Andruw/Chip/McCann/ Frenchy and Roachy. Could any team in baseball match our lineup? It wouldn’t take much. We’d be back on top where we belong!

By Calvin

October 12, 2006 08:37 PM | Link to this

If Glavine would take a hometown discount, so to speak, I think it would be nice to have him around. Maybe at something like 5-7 mil for two years. That would mean trading Horacio because you can’t have both Ramirez and Davies in triple A. I like that rotation Mr. O’Brien. If Hudson can have any kind of a good year, meaning something like 17-8 or better, and Hampton can come back to be dominate like he was prior to getting injured last year, the rotation will definitely be the best in the East, if not, in the NL. You know Smoltz will be…well Smoltz and Glavine will probably put up 15 wins or so. The way James pitched in August and September, you know he will be a good starter as well. That is intriguing…interesting…

By Hotspur

October 12, 2006 08:38 PM | Link to this

Actually, Grinch, I’ve posted before. I just have neither the time nor the inclination to wade into the middle of flame wars. Sorry you took what I said personally; it wasn’t aimed at anyone specifically, just generally those who shoot before they think. (Which is, admittedly, a lot of folks on boards like this.) That said, I stand by what I wrote. The totality of what Tom Glavine was and did while with Atlanta demands, in my view, more respect and appreciation than a lot of people in the ATL give him, regardless of how one feels about how he left or whether we should try to get him back. For the record, I agree with those who think the Mets will never let him leave. With Pedro and El Duque in serious injury trouble, I know I wouldn’t if I were them.

By Carolina Lady

October 12, 2006 08:43 PM | Link to this

Just a rough count:
Glavine - yes: 9
Glavine - no : 27

By Mike Fowler

October 12, 2006 08:52 PM | Link to this

Pay Glavine the money and bring him back.

By Kevin

October 12, 2006 08:57 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB, what are the chances that Kyle Davies would start the season in AAA next year? How much do you really think we can get out of Horacio Ramirez if we were to trade him? I mean, he HAS been hurt the past several years and his record hasn’t been stellar.

BTW: I know Horacio Ramirez hasn’t been able to put a good string of starts (and ultimately, seasons) since his rookie season, but if I were the GM, I’d be a bit hesitant to give up on him and trade him away—he’s shown a lot of promise and it seems like if he’s able to stay healthy, he can turn things around…but then again, many of us have said that one too many times…

As much as I would like to see Glavine come back to Atlanta, I think it’d be better to see the younger guys in the organization develop…

By ssiscribe

October 12, 2006 09:07 PM | Link to this

Greetings everybody. It’s been a busy week in Scribeville (is that a word? Guess it is now) and I haven’t had much time or access to get on here.

Posted a quick note on Wainwright on the previous blog. DOB, nice story. He was the make-or-break part of that deal, from what I remember of the trade. I know the Braves hated to give him up (thanks for sharing the Trader John quotes on the blog today).

Like I said, great kid who had a great upbringing. He always, and I mean, always was wonderful to deal with. Always would call you back. If you got him on the phone during football season, he wanted to know how his alma mater and the other teams back home were doing. Just a super guy and a class act, and I’m thrilled for his success.

Now, to the lefty across the way at Shea …

I was blessed to see three of Glavine’s biggest moments in person. First, the home opener in 1989 (what, you may ask?). Facing the defending world champion Dodgers, Glavine beat them (I think it was 6-1) and my dear, late grandfather commented that he thought “that kid” had the stuff to really be something.

Of course, the most memorable moment of all was Oct. 28, 1995, the one-hitter in Game 6 of the World Series to win the title. I was there as a fan that glorious night. Five years later, I had the pleasure of covering Glavine’s 200th victory, during the summer of 2000. I would love to see him get to No. 300 in the Braves’ uniform.

Think about it, Braves fans. Knucksie got No. 300 away from here. So did Maddux. It’d be great for Glavine to do it with a tomahawk across his chest.

But it’s not going to happen. When you look at the money the Braves have allocated for a handful of players for 2007, barring a major trade that sends a source of a high salary away this winter, I don’t think you’re going to see Glavine accepting chump change to come here. And anything less than $10 million, after the season he’s had, is chump change.

A rotation featuring Glavine, Smoltz, Hampton, Hudson and James indeed recalls memories of Smoltz, Glavine, Avery, Maddux, et al. But with the economics of today, it ain’t happening, gang. Sorry.

DOB, you mentioned the chill in Flushing (Toilet). Well, it’s chilly back here on the southside of the ATL tonight. Heading into the 40s, and maybe some 30s up in the hills. It’s hockey season (How bout them Thrashers? 3-0-1 so far), and we’re missing postseason baseball down this way. Enjoy the NLCS.

The Scribe abides. Over and out.

—30—

By brian

October 12, 2006 09:15 PM | Link to this

The Braves should definitely do what they can to get Glavine back in a Braves uni next year, but not break the bank. I still think Andruw will end up being dealt for a package that will include a top young pitcher like Ervin Santana, and I still think that Hudson will be dealt back to the AL (Yanks or Red Sox most likely destination)

Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton, Santana, James with Davies in the wings - I like that rotation a lot

Any word on Davies and Salty playing winter ball?

As the Braves transition to the young players taking the lead, getting Glavine back in the clubhouse will be huge. Glavine is a Hall Of Famer and will go in as a Brave. He should win his 300th in a Braves uni. He should lead the Braves (with Smoltz) back to the playoffs and a second World Series Championship

By Gaye

October 12, 2006 09:50 PM | Link to this

During tonight’s game between the Mets and Cardinals, it was mentioned that Glavine said that upon reaching 300 wins that he would retire. I would love to see him have that 300th win with a Brave’s uniform on and I really think that he would like that also. Let’s get him back and with the others, win the World Series in 2007.

By Georgetown Kid

October 12, 2006 09:54 PM | Link to this

No, we should not.

Glavin is a good pitcher right now, but not great. He isn’t worth the money (in terms of performance) that the Mets are going to offer him.

I like Tom Glavin a lot, and would love to see him in Atlanta, but we shouldn’t overpay for nostalgia.

1) The Braves need an innings-eater. Glavin can’t throw 100-120 pitches a game any more. He is a 6-innings starter.

2) The Braves don’t really need a mentor for James, as they already have Hampton. And I have read several accounts of games in which Hampton worked with James in the dugout in between innings of games which James was starting.

3) Finesse pitchers don’t seem to age as well as power pitchers. Maddux at 40 is a shell of his former self, while Smoltz, Clemens, Schilling, Johnson were/are Cy-Young callibre pitchers at 40.

So, I don’t think it would be a good idea to spend all-star money on a pitcher who isn’t really an all-star any more, and can’t log big innings any more.

By Steven

October 12, 2006 10:00 PM | Link to this

Bring Glavine back for 300 AND BEYOND.

By TennesseePaul

October 12, 2006 10:45 PM | Link to this

No more Death Ray!?! I know he wasn’t that imposing, but… oh well. Dayton Moore really must like him.

What’s up with Weaver? This guy goes out and stinks up the place every year and then the post season comes around and he has two good outings. I know he gave up the homer, but considering this guy does nothing but give up homers I’m really, really surprised he did as well as he did. He had a 1 hitter through 6. What’s that all about?

By Bo

October 12, 2006 10:47 PM | Link to this

Why is it the Braves love to resign X-Braves? You talk about budget,not signing AJ, picking up Smoltz 8 million, and no money to spend but now you want to give 40 year old Glavine 1o plus mills. The Braves have enough old player. Its time to get some new young Blood. DOB had you rather have a 23 year old wife or 40 year old off the streets of NY? Sorry Carolina Lady about that. The Tigers don’t have 40 year olds on their staff just young power pitchers. Please no more recycled players, after 14 years some of these guys are getting old. The fans deserve Better. As for me Glavine can keep on truck’n. If they sign him I will not attend anymore games, thats it.

By T

October 12, 2006 10:53 PM | Link to this

No one deserves as much credit for the Braves’ long title streak and their culture of confidence and winning (what’s left of it) as Glavine. That winning tradition began in 1991 when Glavine was the worst-to-first ace and team leader, crystallized when he brought home the 1995 world championship, and ended just this year with Glavine not coincidentally fully recovered from the blow-off the Braves gave him after all those years and Cy Youngs. The Braves organization treated Glavine like sh*t in that negotiation, lowballing him, trying to take advantage of his roots in and love for Atlanta, but they’re paying for it now, because the day the Braves let him go was the beginning of the end. Bringing him back for a final Hall-of-Fame clinching season might make amends and reestablish the Braves as a class organization with a sense of history, but I don’t see it happening. The Braves will probably sink back down in to the loser-swamp because fans and management don’t seem to realize how it is that their culture of winning and excellence came about.

By Brad in KY

October 12, 2006 11:01 PM | Link to this

DOB and Others

Concerning Shaun’s post at the beginning of this thread, I don’t think he was seriously proposing that the Braves could sign Glavine for $1 million a season. The idea, I think, is that the Braves should only bring him back at a super low price. Otherwise, it’s too risky to sign Glavine at his age. 40+ year old pitchers tend to get bad fast (even if there are a very small handful of exceptions). $10 million a season? No way. I think Chuck James has done just fine without Glavine…

By Jimbo

October 12, 2006 11:04 PM | Link to this

No way on Greedy Glav…let him rot in NY.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 12, 2006 11:08 PM | Link to this

The way Glavine’s pitched tonight, I think he’s doing anything but rotting in NY.

Pitching his way to a second World Series ring would be more like it.

Sure you don’t want to bring him back?

By Bo

October 12, 2006 11:10 PM | Link to this

T, its not a matter of how we got it. 1991 Glavine was 25 years old not 40. We need more 25 year olds to get it back. Hell some people like to live in the past.

By NLCHAMPS

October 12, 2006 11:28 PM | Link to this

Look at the reception Glavine got from the braves on his return. Boos and hatered. Piazza, Seaver, Cone were shown respect and love from New Yorkers on their returns. We understand the difference between the game and the “Business”. Did you guys see Glavine tonite? What a frikken pitcher. You people in Atlanta were lucky to have him for so long.

By TennesseePaul

October 12, 2006 11:43 PM | Link to this

Piazza, Seaver, Cone were shown respect and love from New Yorkers on their returns

New Yorkers sure seemed thrilled beyond believe when Braden Looper took the mound. Cheers and love and huges all around for that guy.

By Rip

October 12, 2006 11:46 PM | Link to this

NL CHAMPS-Glad you got him and finally got a good defense and offense to help him win. HAWK , Glavine could pitch a No-hitter and I wouldn’t want him back. I do hope Mets win world series.

By TennesseePaul

October 12, 2006 11:49 PM | Link to this

NLCHAMPS: Did you see the turn out and respect that Julio received when he returned to Atlanta for a series? Braves fans know how to show respect to the players that respect the fans. Glavine’s exit from Atlanta was not on good terms and it can all be laid at his union lovin, money grabbin feet.

By Rip

October 12, 2006 11:58 PM | Link to this

Thanks TennesseePaul Julio loved the Fans. Glavine used the fans, he loved the union more than the fans. Don Sutton is another one that loved the Fans, Atlanta and the Braves. His ad in the ajc was great. I hate to see him go.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 12:32 AM | Link to this

Bo, you wrote: “DOB had you rather have a 23 year old wife or 40 year old off the streets of NY? Sorry Carolina Lady about that. The Tigers don’t have 40 year olds on their staff just young power pitchers.”

Well, um, does the name Kenny Rogers mean anything to you? Not a young power pitcher, Bo.

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 12:34 AM | Link to this

Glavine ia 2-0 with 13 shutout innings so far in the 2006 postseason….he has my respect. O yea , he has never been on the DL and will probably pitch till he is 45.

By The Grinch

October 13, 2006 01:02 AM | Link to this

Howdy, all who are left. Sorry Y’all missed that performance; it was phenomenal. I didn’t realize Carolina Lady was a 40+ pitcher for the Tigers! You go, girl. Thank you, 10Paul, for the agreement. Keep in mind, everyone else, I’m not saying TG couldn’t help the team. I just felt like I needed a rape kit after he left and I’m prone to remember those kind of things in a bad light.

Hotspur, no hard feelings. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion. I happen to agree with you to an extent; I was a huge Glavine fan for a long time. Never thought he had much personality but I had many a fine moment watching him help our team be something special. That’s why I don’t like him now. If you’re Jarrett Wright and you’re bouncing around from team to team each year not knowing your future and the Yankees offer you enough to retire on…hell, yeah. Go for it; I would too. Good luck and congrats. But that wasn’t the position he was in here. As for JS lowballing him, remember he only “reinvented himself” last year. JS offered him probably a little more than he was worth at the time; the Mets overpaid. He was mediocre at best the first two years he was gone, and how many of you forsaw him “reinventing” himself and thought we screwed up when he left? Not many, I’d bet. I remember everyone (including myself)being much more concerned about the loss of Maddux, who looked a lot stronger than Tommy when he left.

By Drummerdad

October 13, 2006 01:38 AM | Link to this

Grinch, Spmetimes you just have a way with the words. I agree with your assessment on Glavine, Schuerholz, and lowballing. If I remember right, Glavine was mediocre during his last year with us and was pathetic in the playoffs. I forget, but was that loss to the Giants? After the season he wanted more money and, if you read Schuerholz’s book, Glavine’s beef was with Stan Kasten. Schuerholz wanted to keep Glavine. They expected Maddux to go to free agency and leave. When he accepted arbitration they were surprised to say the least. That precipitated the Millwood trade.

Glavine strikes me as a very mentally tought guy. That could be a great influence on the young guys. BUT, my opinion is that in order for him to finish in Atlanta it works like this: he or his agent calls up John Schuerholz and says he really wants to finish at home. Can we just work this out? Otherwise, no way I’d spend 10MIL a year on the guy. On an 80MIL payroll, there just seems to be much better ground we can make in other directions that will yield better dividends over time. For me, a “bring him back” vote is with the heart. The head says yes with qualifiers.
Besides all this, reports are out that say that Alfonso Soriano has said no to the Nats. Wouldn’t 10 MIL a year go a long way toward acquiring him to play 2nd?

By BullDawg Rick

October 13, 2006 01:44 AM | Link to this

Uh.. Like …. He!! NO!!!

In the BIG picture - Tom Glavine helped start free agency as it is today (NO loyalty to ANYONE!!).. He’d have had to go to the Mets for $1.00 more than the Braves offered simply ‘cause he was all ‘bout the money$$… & the head of the Players A*. I’ll bet the past 3 seasons he spent in NY, and the ONE Million more he made in NY over that time… He Lost due to the cost of living, etc…

Do Not Let Him Retire A Brave!!! He’s a Turn-coat the Atl!!!

By BullDawg Rick

October 13, 2006 01:49 AM | Link to this

BTW…

How ‘Bout trading (though I’d rather keep A. Jones) for A-Rod straight up?!?! I LOVE A. Jones, but since there’s been so much smack about him ‘having to go’ (for what reason, I have NO idea!! He’s the BEST CF in baseball the past 10 seasons & 5 +…)

Just MO.. (My Opinion)

By The Grinch

October 13, 2006 01:50 AM | Link to this

Thank you, sir. Yeah, it would be a solid rotation if he came back but a team in our position financially would be better served commiting the money he’d likely command elsewhere. It’s really just a novelty idea; no way (especially after tonight’s game) the Mets aren’t going to outbid us. They can afford to. And for all saying “Well, what if he took a hometown discount?” If the man was capable of that he’d still be here in the first place. Soriano would be nice, but I’ll bet JS is going after a solid mid-rotation pitcher/mid-echelon leadoff guy combo for that money. If something special jumps out, he’ll pull the trigger, but that’s where he’s looking I’d bet.

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 02:05 AM | Link to this

The Mets have a 2007 team option on Glavine , this whole blog is concerning opinion and specuation regarding him. The Mets will exercise their option and Glavine will be a Met next season , end of story.

By Drummerdad

October 13, 2006 02:26 AM | Link to this

Well jeez Coach, you just poured water on all our fun. You gotta remember, this is DOB’s way of providing us something to do while the real stuff heats up. It’s kid of like the coloring sheets and crayons my kids used to get at a number of resturaunts when they were younger. It’s distraction for us.

By The Grinch

October 13, 2006 02:32 AM | Link to this

Hell, I still like crayons. :-)

By Drew

October 13, 2006 04:57 AM | Link to this

Noooooooooo Way!

He went to the Mets just to get the 4th year of his contract guaranteed - so he could get to his precious 300 wins. Well, after 4 years he’s still a long way short, and he can stay that way.

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 05:18 AM | Link to this

Um , Drew…….dude what is your definition of a long way short of 300 wins ? Glavine is a career 290-191. He is ten wins from 300 and he won’t stay that way and how did I misspell speculation , arrrghhhhh. I need more coffee.

By Greg

October 13, 2006 05:42 AM | Link to this

I used to be Tommy’s biggest fan. But I’m really ticked. He used to give up 4 to 8 runs in the first inning of most Braves playoff games. Last night when I need him to do that, he shuts out the Cards. Where was this pitcher when we needed him?

By Wedgie Evans

October 13, 2006 06:06 AM | Link to this

I don’t think it’s worth bringing him back for that much money — no matter how you wanna look at it, he is still 40 years old and before this year he wasn’t exactly lighting it up in NYC. The Braves already have more than half their payroll tied up in 5 or 6 players, which is part of the reason we couldn’t afford to keep Furcal. Which young player walks in another year if we burn another $10 million on Glavine? I would rather see us try to trade for Dontrelle Willis, who won’t cost nearly as much yet as Glavine.

By ncscoots

October 13, 2006 06:25 AM | Link to this

Glavine isn’t exactly what I had in mind when I opined that the Braves need one more PDRSP going into next year. Just too pricey. And frankly, HoRam has better stuff from the same side at a lower price. Yes, yes, the injuries, etc., but the kid hasn’t had any injuries to his ARM, and you have to think that hammies and fingers and whatnot have to subside SOMETIME (I admit, he may be one of those guys just doomed to the DL every year, but I still that’s an awfully pessimistic view). Braves rotation as now projected could be either lethal or brutal, dependingon which way all the “ifs” fall. I’ve only advocated trading for another SP as a hedge against the uncertainty, but I don’t think Glavine is the answer there.

By krath

October 13, 2006 07:27 AM | Link to this

TP posted last evening about Jeff Weaver’s two great outings in the post season after stinking it up in the regular season.

I still stick with my opinion that the hitters have more real impact on the outcome of post season games than the pitchers. If you get Roger Clemens in the regular season, you know what you are going to get in the post season. It’s gonna be tough, but it’s up to your offense to figure out how to score.

Normally, a pitcher who struggles during the season doesn’t wake up in the post season and suddenly learn how to pitch!

For example, did you see the first strike out of Pujols last night? When do you ever see that guy swing at a pitch a foot off the plate and almost in the dirt for strike three? Did you see LoDuca swing at a 3-2 pitch from Weaver that literally bounced up there? He doesn’t do that against the Braves in the regular season does he?

Glavine threw well last night, but his two starts in the post season this year have been against teams who havent been offensive juggernauts this year. St. Louis is so banged up with Scott Rolen and Jim Edmunds both shooting up just to play. Eckstein has been hurt and just got back before the playoffs. Molina hits a nifty .216.

In short, If Puhols doesn’t do it, it likely won’t get done.

The Mets are a really good offensive team. I subscribe to the opinion that they made Weaver look pretty good last night rather than Weaver controlling the Mets lineup.

By Shaun

October 13, 2006 07:47 AM | Link to this

Concerning Shaun’s post at the beginning of this thread, I don’t think he was seriously proposing that the Braves could sign Glavine for $1 million a season. The idea, I think, is that the Braves should only bring him back at a super low price. Otherwise, it’s too risky to sign Glavine at his age. 40+ year old pitchers tend to get bad fast (even if there are a very small handful of exceptions). $10 million a season? No way. I think Chuck James has done just fine without Glavine…

Well said. I don’t think Glavine should be paid like Smoltz. Maybe $4-5 million a year at most. But even that is too high in my opinion. Sure, Glavine is the type pitcher that could eat innings, but he’s also old and could slow down any minute now. It would be nice to see him in a Braves uniform for one more season. Maybe they can convince Maddux to come back one more time at a discounted price.

By Shaun

October 13, 2006 07:58 AM | Link to this

With the Braves offense and the depth of the pitching, I see no reason to overspend on an older starting pitcher. Sure, they may not have another Maddux, Glavine or Smoltz but they have plenty of solid arms. Chuck James looks like one of the best young pitchers in the league. I would almost guarantee Kyle Davies will be fine very soon. They still have Smoltz. Hampton and Ramirez are hopefully coming back. The Braves are in a nice position for next season without a Tom Glavine or another veterand starter.

By batrol

October 13, 2006 08:05 AM | Link to this

If Glavine had pitched like this in the postseason for the Braves they would have more than 1 World Series win. I vote hell no on bringing him back. The money would be better spent elsewhere.

By dadgum

October 13, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

Glavine doesn’t excite me in the least. While it is I guess worth blog space to conjecture, if this was a poll I would vote NO. Entirely too much money would be needed to land him again and I think we can get comparable younger talent for less. Who? Dontrelle Willis for starters. Far less than 11 mil Glavine would command.

Glavine is kind of like the plastic man. Like that icon cartoon character Headbloom(not certain of exact name). That is how he has always comes across to me. Anyway maybe it is just me.

Braves can do better by finding a long term solution to regainning pitching dominance. The Kazmir/Verlander types are out there and will be surfacing if our scouts can find them. Meanwhile I would go after a little more stability in age than Glavine.

By cmk

October 13, 2006 08:29 AM | Link to this

I was under the impression that the Mets already picked up the option, or at least declared their intention to do so. At least that’s what I took away from listening to WFAN in New York the other day.

By Dave

October 13, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this

ALCON:

The loss of Kenny Ray just thins out the competition for five relief spots among 13 (now 12) pitchers. I expect further thinning to continue as the injured top-flight relievers the Braves have (Foster, Boyer, Reitsma) come off the IR list and show that they can and will pitch in 2007.

Same logic applies to Luis Hernandez. The Braves have plenty of good middle infielders.

I would have liked to have had Glavine for the past three years. Had he stayed with the Braves, they may have been in the playoffs this year and may have advanced further the past two years against Houston. Further, Glavne would reached 300 wins sometime this year.

That said, the Braves do not NEED Glavine. Further, they do not need pitchers like Glavine (finesse, control pitchers); they have plenty of those types of pitcher (Hudson, Hampton, James, Davies). What they need are power pitchers like Verlander. Smoltz is the only real power pitcher they have, and it’s questionable how much longer John can bring it at 90+ MPH. We need a Verlander or a Nate Foster.

Just my humble opinion!

By Mitchell

October 13, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

Sure—-Bring Him Back!

What I gathered from reading the Schuerholz book is he never (in his heart) wanted to leave anyway. I say bring him back…he’s one of the orginization’s heroes and he should be offered the chance to ride out the final days of his remarkable career in a Braves uniform.

By Jeff

October 13, 2006 09:18 AM | Link to this

Bring back Glavine!

By fnreitsma

October 13, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this

Under NO circumstances should we even attempt to sign Glavine…fn sellout.

By 3trees

October 13, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Good post DOB - that got some spirited discussion going.

As an already admitted Glavine fan, I still say no (to the speculation, Coach). Too much $ and for better or worse, each party has gone down different paths. Now maybe when he actually comes available and if it would be cheap enuff… “For the good times…” :-)

Grinch, I can agree with you on almost all your points except the conclusion. I’ve tried, but I just can’t hate him, but its certainly cool that you do.

On the music front - Just heard from a friend that Buddy Miller will be in Shawn Colvin’s band tomorrow night at the Variety. He also mentioned that Buddy had produced Solomon Burke’s new CD and it had some great stuff on it. I haven’t heard too much Buddy discussion here, but he’s a real good ‘un

By Michael A.

October 13, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Yes.

Q: Who was the Braves player rep before Tom Glavine?

A: Dale Murphy.

By Paul Hamilton

October 13, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

No, please don’t bring back Glavine. He showed his true color, green, for all to see. Let’s move on please, we need to concentrate on the bullpen and maybe a leadoff hitter. I will not cheer on the Braves if they bring Glavine back.

By Shaun

October 13, 2006 09:37 AM | Link to this

If Glavine had pitched like this in the postseason for the Braves they would have more than 1 World Series win. I vote hell no on bringing him back. The money would be better spent elsewhere.

The money would probably be better spent elsewhere, but I think Glavine did a fine job for the Braves in the post-season. He posted, what, an ERA under 3.50 with the Braves in the post-season?

By Steve

October 13, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this

I don’t think anybody else has thought of this, but I think it’s cause for concern that all of the allies Schuerholz and Cox have had are all leaving. Ned Yost and Dean Taylor (now with Moore with the Royals) left a few years back, and then in one year they’ve lost Moore, J.J. Picollo (player development director), Rene Francisco (international scouting director), Scott Nethery (one of our top scouts, signed with the Reds) and Marco Paddy, an assistant in scouting and Latin operations, who just signed with the Blue Jays. Then you add the coaches: Mazzone, Corrales, Gonzalez and Dews. I think these guys are going to be missed more than we think. Anybody agree?

By Shaun

October 13, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

I look at bringing in Glavine the same way I look at bringing in a speedy leadoff hitter—I’m all for it, but the Braves shouldn’t overpay. What does that mean? More than $5-6 million a season for Glavine, and more than $4-5 million a season or one quality player for a speedy leadoff hitter.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Head Coach, you need to read the fine print. There’s a player option and a club option, and if Glav doesn’t execute the player option at about $8 mill, the club option is HUGE, and went to about $14 mill with incentives he hit this year.

So unless they want to renegotiate, maybe give him a two-year deal for slightly less money per, then the Mets are looking at paying Glavine about $14 mill next year for one more year of service, which even for them is a lot of money. But given Pedro injury, they almost have to try to make it work.

If Braves want him and have any chance, it’s to hope Mets don’t want to pay him $14 mill for one year and try to renegotiate a deal. That’s all I’m saying. There’s a chance it could happen if Braves want it to, because like I said, $14 mill is a lot for a 40-year-old pitcher who won 15 games in his first winning season in four years with the Mets.

Drummerdad, NO WAY the Braves should or would spend $70 mill for five years to have Soriano play 2B for them. He’s a total hack at 2B, a better LF than a 2B even though he was initially reluctant to play LF. He’ll probably still want to go to a team that will let him play 2B, but he’s bad over there, certainly not up to the Braves’ defensive standards for middle-infield defense. With their renewed priority to beef up pitching, they’re not going to complement that with a 2B who will make 25-30 errors.

Soriano reportedly just turned down $70 mill for five years from Nats. Braves could probably re-sign Andruw for less than that. And while he’s certainly not the overall offensive threat that Soriano is, and is older, Andruw still plays far, far better defense than him and changes games with his glove.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this

3Trees, love Buddy Miller. Got his last CD. And was going to get that new Soloman Burke CD. What a career rejuvenation he’s had in his, what, early 60s? Great, great voice, and this latest CD has a country undertone, from what I understand (hence the “Nashville” name).

By Turn2

October 13, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

DOB- one word — YES, then add in a few more… YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By lin

October 13, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this

well lets look at it this way galvine back just like braves to do it. they somehow seem little unsure of themselves to trust the new guys they have. you must build a team from young guns. give them the chance. hr needs go along with thompson and hamption and smoltz and hudson then start with james davies and some other young ones. come on even if we dont win its a test and trial era. or take those oldies and put them in bull pen. oh ya that be interesting. sports is a gamble is it not? starter well trade giles and thompson and orr if necessary.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this

Shaun, whether he’s worth it or not is irrelevent and the discussion moot if the Braves are offering $4-5 mill for Glavine. That’s less than HALF of what he’ll get from Mets, so there won’t even be a discussion.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Not to belabor this point much more, but one other thing: Those who bring Smoltz and his $8 mill salary into this discussion, you shouldn’t. Smoltz is only making that low a salary because that’s the contract he agreed to when he restructured his deal so he could move back to starting. if he’d have had ANY idea he’d have the success he was going to have, I’m sure he’d never have agreed to such a low option-year salary. But it gave him some security at a time when there was no real way of knowing how long he’d last in the starter’s role.

To Smoltz’s credit, he honored the contract and didn’t demand a renegotiation after leading the Braves’ rotation for two seasons. A LOT of guys would have bitched and moaned about being underpaid, because he’s vastly underpaid next season. But you can’t use that as some standard by which to compare other possible aquisitions, because those incoming possibilities aren’t going to care what Smoltz is making or why his salary is what it is. Glavine’s unlikely to take a paycut, especially not a more than 50-percent paycut, after a 15-9 season with an ERA well under 4.00, nearly 200 innings, and, so far, a great postseason. Whether he’s 40 or not.

By 22oz

October 13, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

Glavine has shown his true color is green, but it won’t be if he comes back to the Braves because he’ll be offered a low price deal. So there’s no debate, either he comes back for a discount, or he doesn’t. Schuerholtz won’t offer him anything that will hinder the Braves payroll. Just look whats’ happened with Hudson.

On another subject, I’m glad to see the Royals got Kenny Ray. He was a feel good story, but he probably wouldn’t have made the Braves bullpen this year, so maybe he can continue his big league career with KC. All the best to Death Ray.

By StartANewStreak

October 13, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

Assuming we could get Glavine for about $10 mil a year, how would that affect Andruw’s future with the team? Because while I think Glavine would help, if the choices were Rameirez/Andruw vs. Glavine/TBD, I’m taking Horacio and Andruw every time.

By Shaun

October 13, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Well, all I’m saying is that’s all I would offer him, $4-5 million a year. If that ends the discussion, oh, well. Payroll efficiency has become increasingly important for the Braves, it seems, if they want to contend with the Mets from now on.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 13, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

glavine looked good last night. the umpire seemed to call all his outside, off the plate pitches strikes. when umpires did that for him here he was tough, too. this journalist is struck though by a comment from the broadcaster, “that was an 88 mph fastball.”

By Lew

October 13, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

I asked a major league ballplayer one time (one making the MLB minimum), what the difference was between $10 million and $14 million, figuring your rich either way. His answer was “$4 million, would you turn it down if it was offered to you?” I’m not so sure that any of us WOULD turn it down, so maybe we shouldn’t judge Glavine so harshly. As far as the Union gig goes, give it a rest, y’all, it was 13 seasons ago and is no longer significant-get over it. It is highly unlikely that Glavine will be a Brave next year anyway, but the bitterness needs to go away-it was a long time ago and likely a moot point. DOB-Ever heard of the Savoy Inn in KC? A friend from Lawrence is taking my wife and I there when we go to Kansas next summer.

By Bo

October 13, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

DOB I knew you would catch the Kenny Roger spin (43 next mo) but just one is ok thats Smoltz. Thats why you are the best at AJC you know your facts. I still don’t want Glavine back but I wish him the best in NY. What about Ted Lilly LHP 15 wins 160 k’s Free Agent this year Blue Jays?

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

I completely agree with Lew. It’s easy for us to judge from the outside. Most of us will never have to make decisions that are worth Millions of dollars. Glavine made HIS decision. There may be personal reasons we’ll never know about.

By Shaun

October 13, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Lew,

Lawrence, KS, hometown of Bill James, of course.

I agree about Glavine. Cut him some slack, he’s just working for all the other greedy ballplayers. How many of the rest of us would behave the exact same way if we were put in that situation? Humans are greedy. How many of us would rather spend $40-50 bucks per game to go to a sporting event a few times a year than give that money to a more worthy cause? We all have some responsibility for the high salaries of entertainers and athletes.

By Carolina Gent

October 13, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

Add my vote to those who want Glavine back, BUT…. let’s not break the bank to do so. Assuming that what FOX reported last night is true, that TG will retire once he gets to 300, let’s offer, say, a two-year deal that’s guaranteed for one, worth around 9 mil, with a 300th-win bonus incentive of another mil. If he really wants to come back to the Braves and win #300, this will give him a chance. But if he’s after the $$ AND the 300, we won’t be able to afford him. We still have too many other holes to fill. I still don’t trust that HR can be consistently effective, and then there’s that sophomore slump thing to consider with James. Am I right in thinking he qualifies as a 2nd year man next year? I do think Davies could use at least half a year at AAA, if not more.

By Carolina Lady

October 13, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

See, Grinch? Told you I didn’t have no ‘girl arm’! You’d know that if you’d seen me throw rocks at JDeere, incorrigible one! :-)))

By Samy

October 13, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

Glavine is one of the all-time great braves pitchers. This organization hasn’t been quite the same since he and Maddux went looking for greener pastures. I’d love to have him back. He really regained his form this year, and poor starting pitching is what killed this team this summer.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

Lew, if you’re talking about the Hotel Savoy, it’s a great old place downtown, with an outstanding restaurant, the Savoy Grill I think it’s called.

Hope your friend is also taking you to Lawrence, aka the greatest town in America.

Shaun, Bill James taught (still does, I think) a class in baseball literature at KU when I was in school in the early 80s. He taught it once every other spring, I believe, and it filled up instantly.

I tried to get in, but after sitting through the class for about 4 days and seeing no one drop out, I knew there was no way, and I wasn’t going to keep going for no credit. But it was really cool, read a bunch of the best baseball books and discussed them, etc.

By KC

October 13, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

Since fitting Glavine into the rotation would require the Braves to trade Horacio Ramirez, the question of whether or not they should try to bring Glavine back is really a question of who would the Braves rather have… Tom Glavine at 8-11 million a season, or Ramirez at 3-4 million.

Here are the facts… decide for yourself:

Tom Glavine is still a quality pitcher, though obviously not quite what he once was, and will turn 41 in March. He had a solid 2006 season, and so far this year he’s been terrific in post-season play. However, in his last 3 seasons in Atlanta, he went 2-4 with a 7.20 ERA in October. If he pitches post-season baseball next year, which Glavine will show up?

I think everyone has a pretty good idea of what we’re looking at with Glavine, but Horacio Ramirez is a guy who people don’t seem to know a lot about in terms of his ability. The Braves have regarded HoRam very highly for several years now, though he hasn’t been able to put it all together yet… partly due to injury, and partly due to underperformance.

HORACIO RAMIREZ (a snapshot):

Over his first two seasons in Atlanta (2003/2004), HoRam went 14-8 with a 3.59 ERA, and the Braves regarded him as a top-of-the-rotation kind of lefty in the making. The injury bug bit for the first time in his sophomore season when he missed 2/3 of the 2004 season. He enjoyed a healthy season last year, but struggled somewhat in ’05, posting a 4.63 ERA and seemingly giving away more round-trips than a Wendy’s-Airtran promotion.

This year he again missed much of the season due to injury, and his 2006 season when he was on the mound was peculiar. In his very first start of the season, he left the game early and headed straight to the disabled list. His last start of the season was one in which he also left early and was immediately placed on the DL. In both instances he tried to pitch through his problems before finally alerting BC that he couldn’t keep going. With that in mind, for the purposes of evaluating his 2006 season… let’s toss those 2 starts out and focus on the 12 starts he made between DL stints.

In those 12 starts, Ramirez went 5-4 with a 3.89 ERA. Over that stretch, he was either remarkable or awful every time out… there was no in between. The good news is that he was mostly remarkable. He made nine outstanding starts in which we went 5-1 with 1.70 ERA. In the other three starts, he went 0-3 with a 27.00 ERA. The other good news is that Roger MCDowell got him sinking the ball more, and his HR-per-9 innings ratio was cut in half from the previous year. In short, Ramirez had 3 terrible outings, and 9 truly outstanding ones. He certainly showed again this season the type of pitcher he’s capable of being. If you take away those 3 bad starts, he looked like a guy who could compete for CY Young at some point. But even with those 3 horrible outings, a 3.89 ERA is almost identical to the one Glavine posted this year.

There are legitimate concerns about HoRams ability to stay healthy. Still, he is a young guy who could help this team for years to come. Tom Glavine is old, and will cost 4-8 million more than Ramirez. Whadya think?

By jason

October 13, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

How about this roatation Smolts, Huddy, Glavine(no brainer if he wants to come), Hampton and…………..Maddux as the 5 starter. I believe he will be a free agent. That would be kind of cool. I would still take Maddux as our 5 starter!!!!!!!

By jason

October 13, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Sorry Smoltz not smolts my bad

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 13, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

DOB Help me out with some lyrics from The Man. I found my old c.d. case of “Murder” but I can’t find the c.d.

The Sound of Laughter:

Well I stood there in the shadows,

and I had my forty-four,

I could hear her mockin’ laughter,

but she won’t laugh anymore,

…….

Now I’m down here in this jailhouse,

and I know what got me here,

it was the sound of laughter ringin’ in my ear.

OH MAN, I’ve got to find that c.d. TONIGHT!!!

By Tomas

October 13, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

Great article as always DOB:

• Every fan of any would love to have Glavine, but with all the money the Mets have, they wont let him go and thats a fact.
• The Mets are getting close to having an unlimited payroll, they will add starting pitching next season, and theyre going after Zito, and Schmidit.
• Braves have a potential great pitching, and good hitting, but with the mets having that extraordinary offense, and if they add Zito, or Schmidit, they will have the best pitching in Baseball: Mets Pedro Martinez(at the middle of the season, Tom Glavine, Barry Zito, Orlando Hernandez, and John Maine.
• Braves have to tune it up, add a captable setup guy, and a lefty reliever, you got yourself the bulpen ready. Now you need to add a leadoff hitter, they were third in runs this season, thats not enough they need to be the best, add Lugo, or Matthews, if you add Lugo, you got all set up perfectly, because he plays second, if you add mathews trade langerthans.

By Salty55

October 13, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

KC I think…well said.

By Lew

October 13, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

DOB-That sounds like the place. Yeah, we’ll go to Lawrence. My friend has her PH.D from KU and she and her husband are at the University (at least temporarily-her grant ran out). They live in Lawrence and have for many years. We’ll go out next summer and see the DRays when they play the Royals. I’ve never been out there, but my wife has and likes Lawrence.

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

David , I read the fine print. 8 million , 10 million or 14 million it makes no difference to an organization based in N.Y. the Mets need pitching , they have the money to burn and they will. End of story.

By SR

October 13, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

Jeesh, why would the Braves need Tom Glavine, I mean, they have quality studs like John Thompson and Horacio Ramirez and Kyle Davies and Tim Hudson and Kenny Ray, wait strike that and Mike Hampton who hasn’t pitched in two years. Bring back a Hall of Famer with almost 300 wins? Nahh, they are loaded (with bums)

In all seriousness, what has happened to this team? Where are the quality pitching prospects? Oh yeah, traded away for rent a players and underachievers. Hasn’t it been a priority over the years to draft young pitchers? Where the hell are they?

To read that this staff has “potential” is laughable at best and sobering at worst. Each one of these clowns other than Smoltz (whose age and history of arm troubles does not portend well for much longer) is transparently bad. HoRam??? Are you kidding me?? For every good outing this guy gets torched twice over. Plus, he is a walking AFLAC commercial. Hudson?? I’ve already spent enough keystrokes on him, he’s done, finished, been on the downside since he went south, literally and figuratively.

Hampton?? Who would bet a nickel on him coming back? Kyle Davies? What is he going to give you? Chuck James, maybe but then there’s the sophomore jinx. John Thompson, never was, is or will be. Adios.

Is there no one coming up through the system that offers a ray of hope for the future? If not, absent the signing of some quality arms, this team ain’t going anywhere.

By Salty55

October 13, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

The $14M for Glavine isn’t the issue, IMO. The Mets aren’t taking that option, not with going after Zito and/or Schmidt as well. The # is the $8M, and what Glavine ultimately wants to do beyond next year. So…if he wants two more years, what’s the #? $10M…$12M? Regardless, it’s tough to see Glavine in a Braves uni going for 300, not that I have a problem with him being here.

By Lew

October 13, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Tomas-I wouldn’t worry about Pedro being any kind of factor for the Mets next year. He very well might not even be back by mid-season. El Duque is also getting real old and shouldn’t be much to worry about. Schmidt and Zito- Schmidt can’t pitch worth a damn in Atlanta, so I don’t much worry about him. As far as Zito-after seeing what’s transpired with Mulder and Hudson, is another A’s pitcher anything to worry about? Besides, even with an unlimited payroll, the Mets will still have the Yankees, Red Sox and Blue Jays and their unlimited slaries to contend with. The Mets do NOT have a dynasty. They have many more issues with their rotation than even we do, and will lose Cliff Floyd and they have several players like Beltran that have trouble staying healthy.

By The Grinch

October 13, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Morning, all. 3Trees, “hate” is perhaps too strong a term. How about “intense dislike” instead?

That was vicious, CL; my forehead still hurts. :-)

Shaun, has someone recently gotten on to you about not donating to charity? This is like the second time I’ve seen you mention it in the last week or two. If you’re just feeling guilty, I know of an excellent one: the “Guiness for Grinch” Foundation. You haven’t lived ‘till you’ve seen the happy look on a poor Grinch’s face when that Guiness truck backs up in the driveway. It’ll warm your heart and make you proud. If you’re interested, say so and I’ll give you further info. :-p

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

Lew…..Trust me on this. The Mets have a general manager that will deal with all the issues and correct them. He will have the Mets ready to win come 2007. You’ve been predicting failure for the Mets all season and now it’s obvious you were off the mark. Thoughout the 2006 season the Mets have dealt with injuries. We lost Pedro, El Duque and Duaner Sanchez. The Mets proved they were deeper than people thought. Now we’re just 3 wins away from the WS!!!!

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

David , your current blog is a worthy subject and I’m not here to bust your chops. So , if you want to look at this from a money standpoint I’ll add my two cents. Wickman , Smoltz , Hampton , Chipper , Andruw , Hudson , Renteria and Ramirez are eating up appoximately 65 million of the teams 80 milllion payroll. Factoring in the other 17 or more players in a 25 man roster along with arbitration and it will add another 4-6 million. So you see my point ? Glavine is to expensive and the Mets would never dream of letting him pitch for a division rival. Schuerholz will try to keep his payroll around 75 million , which gives him the breathing room to add players and payroll later on during the season just like he did this season.

By Lew

October 13, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Grinchy-Guiness? You actually drink that crap? I thought you were more discriminating than that. Even when I still drank, that stuff wasn’t worth the time or effort. That and all this animosity about Glavine. Do we need to tiptoe through the potatoes or something? Go listen to Mott The Hoople and chill, Dude.

By Lew

October 13, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

Champs-What I’m saying is not that the Mets will have a bad team-they won’t. My point is that they have as many issues (if not more) than the Braves. You may find that you have other VERY rich teams competing with you for the available free agent talent this offseason. Besides, I still attribute the Mets running away with the division this year more to the fact that the Braves stunk than that the Mets were that great. It should have been much closer than it was and next year I think will be a three way race with the Mets, Braves and Phillies. Beware the Phillies if they can find pitching. If that happens, we both may be looking up at the division winner.

By KC

October 13, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Tomas:

Even if the Mets get Zito or Schmidt, they still will have nothing even remotely close the “the best pitching in baseball”. Their bullpen will be solid again I’m sure. That’s not a concern for them. Their rotation however, will remain a major concern, even if they add a big-name free agent.

Pedro Martinez won’t be off the DL until about half way through next season. When he comes back, I’ve heard a number of people around the game question whether he will ever be the same when he does return. Where as elbow surgeries such as the Tommy John procedure rarely affect a players stuff or velocity, shoulder surgeries often do.

They will probably work something out to keep Glavine there, but let’s remember that while he’s still a solid, above average pitcher… he’s no longer a number-1 starter (thought he’ll likely get paid like one). He’ll be 41 in March.

So let’s say they do sign Schmidt or Zito… First of all it it’s Zito, it’s important to point out that his ERA over the last three seasons is 4.04. That’s well above average in the AL, but one has to wonder whether he still deserves to be called an “ace”. Schmidt is still dominant, though a regular visitor to the DL. If the Mets sign one of them, their rotation on opening day would be what? Zito, Glavine, Maine, ?, ? That’s not a great starting staff. If… IF Pedro Martinez comes back and looks like his old self come August, they will have a solid starting staff if they can find someone to round out the back end of the rotation.

I think the chances are far greater of Tim Hudson coming back and pitching like an ace all season next year than odds of Pedro Martinez coming back and pitching like an ace at any point next season. Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, James, Ramirez… that rotation looks much better to me than any rotation the Mets are likely to feature next season.

As to the Mets incredible offense… you do realize that the Braves were better, right? Atlanta scored more runs, had a higher batting average, and hit more homers than the Mets this season.

By TennesseePaul

October 13, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

Lew: The Mets have a good chore. They have Wright, Reyes and Beltran for 5+ seasons. They have Delgado and LoDuca for another 2 seasons. They have Wagner for 3+ seasons. And they have the financial ability to window shop. I’m not saying they have a dynasty, but they should be hanging around with the top teams for at least the next 2 to 3 years.

Signing Glavine, to me, is not a wise use of money, or talent. HoRam has a high upside and will be around longer than Glavine. Having said that, signing Glavine would be a sly move in that it would remove the most dependable starter from a division rival. That would leave the Mets with a lot more shopping/trading to do in the offseason and the Braves with less. But a move like that does more to win a division title than it does a WS. And I think, now that the streak is over, the building focus should be entirely on the WS. I don’t believe that it wasn’t before. Before we were always built to make to the playoffs and needed a part here or there to hopefully go deeper in them. But after this season, we’re more than 1 or two parts away from getting back.

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

I’m actualy more concerned with the Marlins. There’s a lot of talent over there. If they get the right Manager….Watch out.

By The Grinch

October 13, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

Lew, I’m out of potatoes. But I do have pancakes! Good idea. Guiness is a love/hate beer. Sorry you’re on the wrong side. :-)

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

ALl you folks need to keep in mind that the Mets do have some young arms in the minors (Pelfrey and Humber) who may challenge for a spot in the rotation. I know people don’t think much of Maine and Oliver Perez but they’re young power arms that with some corrections and maturity will also contribute. I’m just saying don’t overlook these pitchers in the Mets future.

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

One more thing…..As for the braves, I believe Hudson and Hampton are the keys to your success. If both find their forms the NL East race will be fun to watch.

By KC

October 13, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

TennPaul:

But after this season, we’re more than 1 or two parts away from getting back.

WHY?

Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, Ramirez, James figures to be a better rotation than most, and has a chance (if Hudson bounces back and the rotation stays relatively healthy) to remind us all of Atlanta’s starting rotation glory days. Waiting in the wings, we’ve got Kyle Davies (he sucked this year but still has a great deal of potential), and Lance Cormier, who posted an ERA of just above 3.00 as a starter for the Braves in September. What does the rotation need? Not a thing that it doesn’t already have, if you ask me. We needed two more quality starters from what we had most of this season, and we’ve got them… Hampton and Ramirez.

The bullpen only needs one piece… a proven setup man. That’s it. We’ve already re-signed Wickman. We have two good young pitchers in McBride and Yates who both learned on the job this year, and finished the year out looking very good. From July 16th onward, McBride had an ERA of under 2.00. Yates’ September ERA (under pressure in the setup role) was 2.70. Don’t forget about Chad Paronto who finished the season with a very respectable 3.19 ERA. That’s 4 pieces already in place. Then you’ve got Blaine Boyer and John Foster (2 very important parts of the ’05 bullpen) coming back healthy this spring. So besides that proven veteran setup man… what do we need in the bullpen?

Offensively… while a true leadoff hitter might be nice, is there any way to say that an offense that is already the best in the league truly needs anything? Would there be anything wrong with trotting the same lineup out there next year?

TennPaul, I understand your assertion that the ’06 Braves need to improve in numerous ways over the ’05 team, and that’s obviously very true. The thing is… they already have improved greatly. Wickman is re-inked. McBride and Yates seemed to come into their own toward the end of the season, and they’re getting Boyer and Foster back in the pen as well. We’re getting Hampton and Ramirez back in the rotation. This team is greatly improved already without making a single move.

By Salty55

October 13, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

What’s wrong with Guiness??? Now Grolsch…sheesh, it doesn’t even sound good saying it…and much worse going down!

:-)

By TennesseePaul

October 13, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

NLCHAMPS: Off the mark on the regular season, but the Mets have yet to match up against good pitching. I don’t know what Weaver was doing last night. If I were commiss, I’d drag him in for testing. The Mets have a very, very strong chance of making it to the WS (nothing can be said to be 100% after what Boston pulled a few years ago). But in the WS they will be going up agains the Tigers. That team really has their sh!t together. It’ll be the first stiff competition the Mets have faced in the post season. At that point, we’ll see if predictions hold. I predict that the Tigers superior pitching will over match the Mets. It already over matched the Yankees, and the Yankees have by far the best offensive lineup.

If I’m wrong, big deal.

By KC

October 13, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

Head Coach:

Based on the comments of Braves’ President Terry McGuirk, I think JS will go into the season with a payroll every bit of 80 mill. McGuirk said they might be able to squeeze a few more dollars out (actually increase payroll slightly).

By KC

October 13, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

NL CHAMPS:

You didn’t just inlcude the words “Oliver” and “Perez” in a statement of the Mets hope for the future, did you?

By TennesseePaul

October 13, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

There is no guarantee that the Mets are going to get either Zito, Schmidt or both. There are a lot of equally wealthy teams out there that need pitching. Two of them happen to be in the same state that both those pitchers currently work in. And who knows what the Giants will do, but they also could be a player in the sweep stakes. And you can never count out the Rangers desire to hand out ridiculous contracts. They do it all the time.

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

TennPaul….you make some excellent points and I won’t argue with them. I will say the Mets lineup is more balanced than the Stankees. Also, when you say offense keep in mind that stolen bases are part of that equation. The Mets have the most steals in MLB. They have the speed to manufacture more runs than the A’s or Stankees.

By The Grinch

October 13, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

Salty, “Grolsch” does kind of sound like what happens when it comes back up, doesn’t it? But give the Dutch their due; they settled New York. Umm, never mind. :-)

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

KC don’t laugh……He pitched a complete game shutout against the braves this season. He’s young, lefty, and throws in the mid 90’s…..He’s too young to give up on…

By Shaun

October 13, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

The Grinch,

Point is we all complain about how much athletes make and complain about how much we make and how much things cost. But we have no problem spending at the very least $20-30 bucks a few times a year at sporting events. If it’s that big a deal, stop going to major league sporting events and stop watching them on T.V. If we were honest, we would see we are just as greedy as pro athletes just on a smaller scale; most of our salaries just aren’t as high and aren’t as public.

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Well , I wish Terry McQuirk would give out an accurate number for the payroll increase. Schuerholz was bumping right up against that 80 million cap at the end of the season with the added contracts of Wickman , Baez , Aybar and Ward.

By TennesseePaul

October 13, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

KC: WHY?

Why you ask? Because after watching the injury bug hit all the pitchers we had, no matter who we already have it is prudent and necessary to aquire more than 2 players. I am right there with the rest of the lot in the excitement I have over our young pitchers. But I differ in that I do not believe Foster and Boyer alone are going to be improvements. Neither of them has pitched in a year. And both are coming back from injury. After this season, I don’t want to have to rely on those odds. Also, I don’t think the offense was bad without a lead off guy, but it was very inconsistant. And a lead off guy would help (the right lead off guy. A step up would be a willing leadoff guy, which we didn’t have this season).

So yes, I think we could use two pitchers and a position player. If other parts, dare I say it… AJ, are traded, we’ll need a lot more than just the box full of A level rookies that Payne has been salivating over.

This team in the second half was a 90 win team as is. It was greatly improved by making 3 deals. We signed wickman, aquired a younger utility/possible future 2B, and picked up a solid bat for the bench. It also improved by more playing time from McCann. The bench bat needs to be resigned. That’s one move. McCann needs a dependable, servicable back up because it’s foolish to play him every day. Pena might be the guy, but he might be traded to get us another dependable bullpen arm and/or starting pitcher.

In short KC, I believe if we stand pat or make the typical moves we have the past few years, we will accomplish the same thing as the past few years and I want to accomplish more than that and I believe it will require more than what we’ve done in the past few years.

By KC

October 13, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

NLCHAMPS: Given a chance to pitch every 5th day… every one has pitches a good game once and a while.

I certainly agree that Oliver Perez has a lot of ability, but when it comes to delivering, he’s a long shot at best. He’ll be heading into his 8th big-league season next year, and has only had one good year in his career.

By Rick Roberts

October 13, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this

Definitely bring Glavine back—he wants to come back, as well. Needs his #300 in a Braves uniform. Big thing is, he is pitching better and differently than when he was in Atlanta. He goes out every fourth/fifth day and throws innings. Glavine is a leader and a true pro—good for the Braves

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

KC….I think you’ve got him confused with someone else. Oliver Perez is 24 yrs old. Broke into the majors with San diego in 2002. Was traded to the Pirates in 2003. So he’s only been with three teams counting the Mets.

By 3trees

October 13, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

Grinch - now we’re on the same side of the love/hate debate (yeah, hate probably is too strong a word). There’s nothing as good as a well drawn Guinness from a clean tap, in a (clean) well lit place, with tile floors, on a corner, in the fall, with the sun shinning - AFTER work.

Maybe we can add that to the Blog line - Braves, TMIB, Music, Pie, Toes, Guinness - you know, the good stuff?

Arkansas H’billy - not the same tune, but a great one by the man nonetheless:

Delia, Oh, Delia Delia all my life If I hadn’t shot poor Delia I’d a had her for my wife Delia’s gone, one more round Delia’s gone

By Shaun

October 13, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

So yes, I think we could use two pitchers and a position player. If other parts, dare I say it… AJ, are traded, we’ll need a lot more than just the box full of A level rookies that Payne has been salivating over.

The Braves almost won the World Series in 1991 with several key players 25 and under then stayed at the top for the next 15 seasons. I guess there is something wrong with young, cheap talent. I know there is a good chance they can’t get that much young quality for AJ, but if they can they should. So your assertion that we’ll need more than a lot of quality young players may not be true (if that’s what you mean by A-level rookies). I hate to keep beating a dead horse but if the Braves can get two or three of the top 50 or so young players in baseball for AJ, they should pull the trigger on a deal.

By KC

October 13, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

NL CHAMPS:

Sorry, I was looking at his career stats and just counted the number of lines. Two of those seasons were divided into two lines since he was traded in the middle of the season. My apologies.

He is actually heading into his 6th season… not his 8th. Still though, I think he’s a long shot to really help the Mets.

By AJK

October 13, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

DOB, yeah, I’d bring him back, both for the strong addition he’d make to the staff, and for the nostalgia of watching him win #300 in a Braves uniform. If the Braves can swing it financially I think it’s a great idea. Assuming we subtract Giles, Thompson and Horacio from the payroll, do you think there’d be enough room to sign him? Any indication he’d give the Braves a hometown discount?

By NLCHAMPS

October 13, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

My point was that the Mets have some young power arms that may contribute to future success. They’re just not counting on the availability of free agency. Lets see how Maine pitches tonite. That will go a long way in determining if he’s a player the Mets will count on next season.

By Salty55

October 13, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

3trees Guiness…Brilliant! (It had to happen!) Nice visual you created…I’m there!

Grinch On the Dutch and founding NY, if you’ve ever been to Amsterdam, the first thing that strikes you (or at least me) was, ‘Wow, New York City…with canals’. Pretty neat actually!

By Lew

October 13, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Grinch-One must be really desparate to resort to smoking pancakes. Maybe the syrup will help. Come to think of it, the syrup may just help the Guiness, too. It certainly can’t be much worse.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 13, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Yeah, good call 3Trees, its on the same album along with some other good unheralded classics like, Mr. Garfield, Cocaine Blues, The Sound of Laughter, Orleans Parish Prison…….

I just can’t get that one out of my head. I don’t do Guiness, but many, many bw’s were removed from the Igloo due to that c.d.

By MGL

October 13, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Koster is gone, released, byebye.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 13, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

I don’t drink this stuff either but just out of curiosity, do y’all have Coors in Georgia yet, or is the Alabama Wild Man and Fred still trucking that stuff over there on the down-low?????

Send bill to big Enos Burdett B-u-, B-e-, aw hell I’ve got to go!!

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

Trade Andruw , trade Andruw……listen to yourself Shaun. Your advocating trading a perennial gold glove hall of fame CF in the prime of his career at the ripe old age of 29. I bet you would have traded Frank Robinson in 1965. after all , Frank Robinson was washed up at 29 just like Andruw and yes you should check out his stats after 1965. Andruw can stay a Brave , Schuerholz just has to get creative with the payroll and yes I have have the answer as to how to go about making it happen. Shaun your membership in the Idiocracy is stamped and official , congratulations.

By Amber

October 13, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

sigh Nice fantasy rotation, but unfortunately the chances are slim to none of it occurring.

By ncscoots

October 13, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this

so, KC, a bullpen of Paronto-Yates-McBride-Foster-Boyer-Wickman inspires you to confidence? If you slide in a long reliever there somewhere, who is your 8th inning guy? Or go the other way, if you add an 8th inning guy, which in that group is your long reliever? I don’t know…there’s a good deal of potential in that group, but it’s a long way from there to believing there’s a bullpen ERA of 3 in them. It’s tough to imagine that JS will go into the season with that much uncertainty in ANY pitching area.

By MGL

October 13, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

ncscoots, delete Foster, He’s gone

By KC

October 13, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

There has obviously been a lot of talk around here about Mike Hampton’s return to the rotation next year.

The first concern that is always raised is the fact that he’s coming off of Tommy John Surgery. I have been looking, but have been unable to find an instance in recent years where a player has shown any ill effect from that surgery after the 18 month mark (the actually period of time doctors say it takes to fully recover from the procedure). There hardly ever any effects from that surgery 18 months after the fact these days. Hampton will reach the 18 month post-surgery mark in March. The concerns about his health are certainly understandable, but not really all that warranted.

There have been other assertions made however, that I cannot understand. A number of people here have said something to the effect of “Hampton is overrated anyway, healthy or not.” Or “Mike Hampton is an above average pitcher, but nothing more.” That’s simply not accurate. Here are some numbers that will prove he’s all about, and what we can expect from a healthy mike Hampton:

• Many have opined that Mike Hampton is “injury prone”. 2005 was the first season in 9 years in which Hampton failed to make at least 29 starts.

• Hampton’s (non-Colorado) career numbers: 117-73, 3.57 ERA

• After leaving Colorado, it took Mike Hampton a half-season to get his head and mechanics straight again. From the all-star break of 2003 (his first year in ATL) until he went on the DL last year… his numbers as a Brave were: 16-6 with a 3.43 ERA.

• From the all-star break of 2004 until he went on the DL last year, Hampton went 13-2 with a 2.54 ERA. He was throwing the ball as well as anyone in baseball when he got hurt last year (he was 4-1 with a 1.83 ERA on the 2005 season before getting hurt).

By KC

October 13, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

There has obviously been a lot of talk around here about Mike Hampton’s return to the rotation next year.

The first concern that is always raised is the fact that he’s coming off of Tommy John Surgery. I have been looking, but have been unable to find an instance in recent years where a player has shown any ill effect from that surgery after the 18 month mark (the actually period of time doctors say it takes to fully recover from the procedure). There hardly ever any effects from that surgery 18 months after the fact these days. Hampton will reach the 18 month post-surgery mark in March. The concerns about his health are certainly understandable, but not really all that warranted.

There have been other assertions made however, that I cannot understand. A number of people here have said something to the effect of “Hampton is overrated anyway, healthy or not.” Or “Mike Hampton is an above average pitcher, but nothing more.” That’s simply not accurate. Here are some numbers that will prove he’s all about, and what we can expect from a healthy mike Hampton:

• Many have opined that Mike Hampton is “injury prone”. 2005 was the first season in 9 years in which Hampton failed to make at least 29 starts.

• Hampton’s (non-Colorado) career numbers: 117-73, 3.57 ERA

• After leaving Colorado, it took Mike Hampton a half-season to get his head and mechanics straight again. From the all-star break of 2003 (his first year in ATL) until he went on the DL last year… his numbers as a Brave were: 16-6 with a 3.43 ERA.

• From the all-star break of 2004 until he went on the DL last year, Hampton went 13-2 with a 2.54 ERA. He was throwing the ball as well as anyone in baseball when he got hurt last year (he was 4-1 with a 1.83 ERA on the 2005 season before getting hurt).

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

How about a bullpen of Bob Wickman RP , Macay McBride LP , Horacio Ramirez LP , Kyle Davies RP , Chad Paronto RP , Tyler Yates RP and Oscar Villarreal RP . Rotation : Smoltz RP , James LP , Hudson RP , Mike Hampton LP and the mystery fifth starter ???? . Not bad , you say. How does it happen ? “therein lies the rub” say I , lol.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

KC, agreed with you on Hampton and the misrepresentation of his record by some. The guy’s ONLY issue is health, and it’s obviously been a big one. But as you pointed out, when he’s healthy, the man is a very good pitcher, and he’s had two sustained runs of excellence with the Braves that were longer than any run that Hudson has had in his two seasons here.

He’s 32-20 with a 3.96 ERA in 72 starts since being traded to Atlanta before the 2003 season.

He went 15-2 with a 2.61 ERA in 22 starts from July 4, 2004, until May 14, 2005, when his elbow problems began.

And he went 11-2 with a 2.88 ERA over a nine-week stretch in the 2003 season.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

OK, Amber, we’ll just stop discussing it, then. Sorry.

Head coach, if you’ll notice I had Horacio being traded. Wouldn’t need him if you have three lefties already, and obviously they’d have to free up some cash to afford Glavine anyway. So Horacio’s $3-4 mill is traded in that scenario.

But again, this is all just speculating. personally, I don’t think it’s very likely they could make it work. But depends how much Glavine wants to get back, obviously. And the more success they have here, the less likely it probably is, for many reasons….

Hillbilly, the whole trio of Cash CDs in that set _ Love, God, Murder _ it oustanding, but Murder is the best one, I concur. You should try Nick Cave’s “Murder Ballads” along those same lines. Covers mostly of great murder-related songs, all dark and done with his deep, ominous-sounding voice.

By ncscoots

October 13, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this

Head, your bullpen plan blows up when you look at Ramirez’ and Davies’ previous efforts at working out of the pen. “Brutal” is the word that comes to mind…

By Andy

October 13, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Jason—yeah its fun to dream of glavine being back and Maddox as the 5th starter—why not add a-rod to left—come on that would be cool-Aybar as lead off and at 2nd—but no, none of that is going to happen. I think HoRam and Giles will be traded and the braves will buy a John Thompson type pitcher who will eat innings—sad it won’t be glavine—but with the pedro injury how could they not bring him back. The braves gave away so much starting pitching I know we still have guys—but I don’t think anyone near Wainwright or could be wainwright(I mean power—not quality). A looong off season ahead—head coach decaf baby!!!

By Lew

October 13, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Head Coach-You might want to rethink Horacio in the bullpen. Not sure of the exact stats, but he has been horrendous in relief. Not only that, but paying the $4mil he is likely to make in arbitration, he’s too expensive for a bullpen contributor, which is likely the best he would be. Doubtful he would be that dominant as a setup guy-certainly not $4mil worth.

By Salty55

October 13, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

Scoots Did you go to the game in Charlotte last night? Kick-off returns are scary!

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

USA today has horacio’s 2006 salary at 2.2 million and I’m not sure as to their accuracy. I’ve been thinking more along the lines of trading for another young , talented , inexpensive left hander. Zach Duke(Pirates) or Noah lowry(Giants). the Pirates are shopping for an inexpensive lefthanded power hitting 1st baseman (Thorman) an outfielder (Diaz , Langerhans) and some pitching (Cormier, Villarreal). The geriatric Giants entire outfield of Bonds , Alou and Finley along with 2B Ray Durham , 3B Pedro Feliz , Pitchers Schmidt and Wright ar all up for free agency. We could trade Giles to the Giants if they lose Durham and include two of the already mentioned Braves. You are all of course going to ask why would either one of these teams trade a young pitcher ? If the Braves were to dangle Saltalamacchia or Escobar to sweeten such a trade and of course I’d want more than just a pitcher in return. I have nothing against Salty , but the truth is he has no future in Atlanta at the moment and Escobar seems to be a headcase. The rub of it is if either one of these young leftys proved to be productive in 2007…… it makes one of the veteran pitchers (Smoltz , Hampton , Hudson) expedable , solely to free up the cash needed to resign Andruw to another long term contract and Horacio would still be available to move back into the rotation in 2008. Its a long term , creative cash freeing trade that creates depth in the rotation , bullpen and most importantly keeps Andruw Jones a Brave.

By geauxbraves2000

October 13, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

As of right now, I am not at all giddy about next year’s bullpen. Seems the names are the same so far. Wickman can’t pitch every game, they need an 8th inning guy that can close a game or two. They need a 7th inning guy that could be an 8th inning guy a game or two, and right now there is no one in that pen who could do that. They all are too inconsistent. Too many walks, not enough strikeouts. IMO, there is a lot of work that needs to be done. And that means you can’t tie up $10M or so in Glavine.

Geaux Braves!

Oh yeah, Lew, how about them LSU Tigers. Can’t beat up the little ones but get’s bullied around by the big ones. I thought they’d be better that that. Oh well.

By Lew

October 13, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

Head Coach-Horacio is due for arbitration this season and that $2.2 mil could turn into $4mil easily.

By Antonio McNugget

October 13, 2006 05:29 PM | Link to this

NO way on Glavine. Used to be a big fan. As far as i am concerned he had his chance and threw it away for a little extra cash. Not sure how much extra but I am under the impression it was marginal, all in the name of the future money grubbing players sake. i say he deserves New York and and arm problems he gets.

By Jim

October 13, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

Instead of inviting Glavine back to Atlanta, I would much prefer another visit by General Sherman. Glavine is clubhouse poison.

By Tommy Crump

October 13, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

Absolutely. I would bring back Tom Glavine in a heart beat. Two (2) years ago the answer would have been no but there is no denying the man can pitch. He is better today that I think he has ever been.

By David B

October 13, 2006 06:05 PM | Link to this

I wouldn’t give him 50 cents. Let him stay where his heart is: NYC.

By Tommy Crump

October 13, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this

For all you that don’t want to bring Glavine back because of what happened when he left, let me remind you of what has happened since he left. The Braves have missed the playoffs this year. In the previous few years they have been dismissed in the first round. With Glavine post season ability I would like to see him back and maybe if the braves make the playoffs next year maybe they can advance past the first round. Perhaps you can get Tommy to come back for less per year that the Mets can offer him, but give him a lifetime contract, let him pitch the next couple of years and move him into management. Afterall, Bobby Cox and Schuerholtz won’t be around forever.

By Lew

October 13, 2006 06:15 PM | Link to this

Jim-I can see reasons for Glavine not returning, but clubhouse poison? I doubt it. It’s the fans who have a problem with him, not his teammates. Smoltz and Glavine are best friends. I never heard of problems with other players.

By Antonio McNugget

October 13, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

thanks for the reminder, now go buy yourself a Mets shirt

By Spider29

October 13, 2006 06:21 PM | Link to this

Just got home from being on the road and read this post. I’d sign Glavine, trade Ramirez, send Davies to AAA. Davies looked very rusty those starts he made at the end of the season. I also thing Glavine would be worth 2 years, 8 or 9 million a year. It would be fantastic to see Glavine get Number 300 as a Brave while Smoltz gets Number 200.

By The Grinch

October 13, 2006 06:30 PM | Link to this

GeauxBraves; no offense, but LSU’s overrated this year. Believe me, as a Dawgs fan I know how that is.

Arkansas Hillbilly: You ever stop to think that there would be no “Smokey and the Bandit” if Big and Little Enos just said “f-it, let’s drink Budweiser instead.” Potential tradgedy. Of course, that would have prevented “S&B II” and (heaven help us) “III,” so…I guess it’s a wash. Pontiac would’ve been p**. How many Trans Am’s do you think that movie sold? I’ll be honest; I bought one just like it in the late 80’s just ‘cause I’d wanted one as a kid from watching ol’ Burt. Loved that car, though it was a piece of crap (that whole sentence describes many a Pontiac owners experience).

By Lew

October 13, 2006 06:35 PM | Link to this

GeauxBraves-Know what you mean, Dude. My butt still hurts from that whuppin Tennessee put on my Dawgs last week.

By David O'Brien

October 13, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

Lew, you’re exactly right about Glavine. I think sometimes folks forget that the impression that fans or media or whoever has of a player can be entirely different than what’s going on in the clubhouse with his teammates and manager or coaches.

Glavine’s a good example _ his teammates loved him _ and LaRoche is an even better example. I don’t know how many times I heard radio callers or e-mails to me say he’s a clubhouse cancer who must be traded, based on nothing more than the boneheaded error he made and what appears to be a disinterested look he wears most of the time.

Fact of the matter is, LaRoche even more than Glavine is liked by all his teammates. He and Furcal might be the two most universally popular guys among teammates of the regulars the Braves have had in the five years I’ve covered the team. Not including the youngest guys _ everybody likes McCann, Francoeur, et al.

By Paula

October 13, 2006 08:40 PM | Link to this

Tom Glavine is better than any Braves pitcher not named Smoltz. Some of you need to grow up and get over it. Glavine may or may not come back to the Braves next year, but he will ALWAYS be a Brave.

By Head Coach

October 13, 2006 08:55 PM | Link to this

I’m dumbfounded , totally. After watching the Detroit Tigers go 25-32 the last two months of the season and then backing into the playoffs by losing the division on the last day of the season…….the last thing I expected was this. They are steamrolling through the playoffs and it looks like the World Series will be nothing more than an exercise in futility for the N.L. participant. My hat is off to Jimmy Leyland , the man has clearly shown his experience , savvy and leadership ability. He is the manager of the year in my opinion.

By John the Handsome

October 13, 2006 09:45 PM | Link to this

Flidder no, don’t bring him back. He may have a good game now and then but get young players that are civil to the fans. Glavin is a bum who happens to have pitched well over the years.

By Thomas

October 13, 2006 10:00 PM | Link to this

Lew, and KC:

• I know the mets have some problems of injuries, with Pedro, and El Duque until midseason. Floyd, well his been injured his whole career, they have Endy Chavez.

• Lets say they sign Zito or Schmidit, Zito had an awesome year, and Schmidit hasnt had a good season in the last two seasons. Last year I would have thought, Zito would have been a horrible acquisition he had a couple of bad seasons.

• Mets rotation, with Zito or Schmidit included. Barry Zito 28, Tom Glavine 41, Steve Trachsel, John Maine, Oliver Perez, and at half season Martinez 35, and El Duque 38 may come back. Your telling me that the mets dont have the best pitching in Baseball, its not so much the rotation, is the bulpen its liqhts out.

By Thomas

October 13, 2006 10:19 PM | Link to this

Like I said earlier, if the mets tune it up, the braves should tune it up as well suggestions:

• First step trade Marcus Giles, for Cla Meredith and a player to be named, or Scott Linebrink.

• Sign Julio Lugo to play second, and leadoff.

• Sign LHP Damaso Marte.

• Trade Horacio Ramires for 2 prospects.

By flbravesgirl

October 13, 2006 11:57 PM | Link to this

I’ve been mulling this one over since yesterday. Sentimentally, I’d like to see Glavine win his 300th in a Braves uniform. Realistically, I doubt the Braves will match what the Mets will offer. The only way is if he gave a deep “coming back home” discount and NY needs him too much next year to allow that to happen.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 14, 2006 12:21 AM | Link to this

Thomas, as for trading Giles to the Padres, unless they move Barfield to 3rd I don’t see them having any interest in Giles. Teams like the Blue Jays, Cardinals, Indians, Giants, and Angels are more likely to be interested in Giles’ services.

I think Lugo will be too expensive to sign. Remember, the reason he didn’t sign with the Rays was because he wanted at least $8 mil a year.

Concerning Glavine, I would love to see him finish his career as a Brave. But, it isn’t going to happen. Especially now. With Pedro out until at least the all-star break (and realistically September) and El Duque being old and worn out the Mets will be more likely to keep Glavine. They will go hard after Schmidt, Zito, and Willis. But, they will only get one of them. Too many other big money teams competing for those teams services and with the Yanks in a lot of need of starting pitching and having a lot more money to work with the Mets chances of getting more than one of those guys is next to none.

The Braves would be crazy to give Glavine $10 mil when the money could simply be used in other areas or even getting cheaper and just as good starting pitching. Don’t let this postseason performance fool you. Glavine began to break down in the second half this year until he got hurt and missed those couple of weeks. Those weeks allowed him to rejuvenate his batteries. Like I said, I would love to see him back but for $5 mil not $10 mil.

I really am excited to see what happens over the next two months. Some feel JS will do his typical shrewd under the radar moves while others feel he will make a splash. I feel he will make a splash because he has to for the morale of the team and because the Braves need a player or two that can jump start the team. Signing Ward has to be a priority.

And, as for Ken Ray getting claimed by the Royals, who cares? I like the guy. It was a nice story. But, is this guy really going to be an important cog in the bullpen? No.

By Dave

October 14, 2006 07:48 AM | Link to this

NO, do NOT bring him back. Outside of this season, when was his last really good season?? Over the hill, this is his last hurrah. The future is now for the Braves, don’t delay it by bringing him back for nostalgia sake.

By ACE

October 14, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this

Great Blog!!!! I cannot believe how many people ( Braves fans?) are willing to let Greenbacks Glavine return in a Braves uniform. The only way I’d consider letting him come back is if begged forgiveness for 3 years of treason and kissed his own arrs. (I saw that in Braveheart)!

By Head Coach

October 14, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

Morning all , just wanted to throw out the names of some of the free agents that will be available: Javy Lopez C , He would be an upgrade over Pratt as a backup catcher. Wes Helms 3B-1B , he could be Chippers backup and Aybar could be moved to 2B making Giles Tradeable. Tony Armas jr. RHP could make a decent fifth starter. Darin Erstad OF-1B would be a great pickup(assuming his ankle surgery goes well).

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this

Glavine doesn’t even have enough personality to check Pujols for saying he sucks. I wonder if he’s related to Al Gore. Is he from Cordele?

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Lord God, Y’all; I’m stuck babysitting a Pekingese who’s recovering from back surgery. It looks like it runs off batteries. What in the world are people thinking when they breed these poor things? It looks like you could attach it to a handle and dust your blinds.

By Lew

October 14, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

Head Coach-Did you see Javy’s performance, both offensively and defensively after being traded to the Red Sox? He was as bad as anyone could be. Not to mention he will cost considerably more than Pratt. I think either Brayan Pena or someone else would be a better bet. Helms is not a bad idea and would fill several roles. Armas, Jr. is one of the most injury prone players around. With all of the injuries we’ve had the past two years, I would be real hesitant to take a chance on him. The same with Erstad. As you mentioned, his surgery makes him doubtful. There’s got to be some better options out there. Where have you seen a free agent list? I would like to check it out.

By Sonny

October 14, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

Glavine is a waste of time, we can’t afford him and he’s past his prime. Time to focus on some young promising pitchers (see Marlins).

I’ve been saying it all along, but Hudson has to go. The guy has been below average for 2 years now and I’m not sure what another year will do for him in Atlanta. Either he’s on the decline physically or it’s mental or both for that matter. Either way, he’s making too much money to be mediocore.

The offseason priorities have to be the bullpen, finding another starting pitcher or two and we have to get a consistent leadoff hitter with SPEED!

Let’s hope JH can to a better job than what he did in ‘06.

…I’m still p** about the Betemit trade.

By KC

October 14, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

Tomas

“Mets rotation, with Zito or Schmidit included. Barry Zito 28, Tom Glavine 41, Steve Trachsel, John Maine, Oliver Perez, and at half season Martinez 35, and El Duque 38 may come back. Your telling me that the Mets don’t have the best pitching in Baseball, its not so much the rotation, is the bullpen its lights out.”

Yes Thomas… that’s exactly what I’m telling you. Zito, Glavine, Trachsel, Maine, Perez (and possibly a 1/2 season from Pedro)- Is not a particularly impressive rotation. If the Mets succeed in signing Zito or Schmidt, and IF (and it’s a big if) Pedro can come back and look like his old self 1/2 or 2/3 of the way through the season… then when/if Pedro does come back and can get back to 85-90%, the Mets should have a good rotation, not great, but good. Let’s take a look at the pitchers your suggesting may help lead the Mets to the title of “best pitching staff in baseball”:

Barry Zito: His 3.83 ERA this year was his lowest ERA in 4 seasons. Over the last 3 seasons, his ERA was 4.03. I think he’s a quality pitcher, but I’m not sure he’s been an “ace” for several years now.

Tom Glavine: He’s still a very capable pitcher, but he’s no longer a number-1 starter either. A 3.82 ERA is certainly good by today’s standards… but in no way dominant.

Steve Trachsel: His ERA this season was 4.97. He hasn’t posted in ERA under 4.00 in several seasons.

John Maine: He pitched well for the Mets in 15 starts this year, but I’m afraid that’s not nearly enough of a sample to bank of him as a quality starter next season. He’s a young guy who the Orioles gave up on after 2 seasons in Baltimore. The Mets will just have to cross their fingers and wait and see what the get from him next season.

Oliver Perez: This season, Perez went 3-13 with a 6.55 ERA. His ERA last season was 5.85. Nuff said.

Pedro Martinez: Elbow surgery rarely affects the velocity or stuff of pitchers these days (after proper recovery time). Shoulder surgery (the kind that Pedro just had) on the other hand, often does. When he comes back, which won’t be until 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through next season, there is a distinct possibility that he won’t be the same pitcher.

Tomas, you must be a Mets fan… because there’s no way to describe this rotation as “great” unless you’re blinded by love.

By KC

October 14, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Head Coach

Who in our rotation would we replace with Tony Armas Jr.???!!!!!!!!

Horacio Ramirez? (please see my 11:55am post from yesterday)

We’d be crazy to replace Horacio Ramirez with anything other than a proven top-tier starter.

By KC

October 14, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

Head coach and Lew:

I’m with you all the way on Wes Helms. He would be a perfect fit. He’d be a solid right-handed hitter off the bench, and another option as a backup at 3B. Which, as you pointed out Head Coach, could free us up to use Aybar at 2B.

Let’s sign Helms as our number-1 rightt pinch hitter and 3B insurance policy, and let Prado and Aybar battle it out for the 2B job.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

Wonder what Charlie Leibrandt’s up to these days? :-)

By Thomas

October 14, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

KC,

Well Im notttttttttttttt a mets fan, Im just trying to be realistic. If they got to the postseason, as the best team in baseball, without Pedro for most of the season, Victor Zambrano injured, El Duque acquired at the 2 month of the season, Trachsel being hit hard harder than Hudson, and Tom Glavine had problems in the second half. Still they got to the playoff, if they add Zito…. Again Im not a mets fan Im just trying to be realistic.

By Thomas

October 14, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

Robert,

Good point on trading Giles to SD, but they need an infielder with power. They dont have a third baseman, if they got Giles, they will at least attemp to make Barfield a third baseman. As for Lugo 8 million(per season) in his wildest dreams, Im thinking a multiyear deal worth 5 million.

By Thomas

October 14, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

Does anyone know how much will Gary Matthews Jr. will ask in terms of money.

By Head Coach

October 14, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

Lew its a website called mlb4u.com/free agency. Breyan Pena can do the job as a backup but the Braves would want another journeyman catcher at Richmond in case of injury. I would much prefer the Braves trying to trade for Zach Duke. The Pirates also have a fast young outfielder who can leadoff in Rajai Davis. I would make it a multiplayer trade involving 3-4 Pirates and the same number of Braves. The biggest advantage concerning Duke is he won’t be an unrestricted free agent for another 4 years. It allows both Ramirez and Davies to be in the bullpen , creates depth in the rotation. It would cost only the major league minimum to pay him and if he were effective in 2007 he makes Smoltz , Hudson or Hampton expendable , which would give the Braves enough cash to resign Andruw to another longterm 4-6 year contract.The Braves could throw Rajai Davis , Gregor Blanco and Willy Aybar into the mix in spring training and maybe even come up with a leadoff hitter.

By Metropolitan Man

October 14, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

So the cards finally got to our smoke and mirrors postseason pitchers. I dont know who will be signed in the offseason but for the METS to be this close with no pitching seems like a great free agent attraction to me. What free agent pitcher wouldnt want to sign with the METS in the offseason after watching this season? I do beleive the METS have set themselves up to be a franchise that people want to associate with now. I know 1 season dosent make a franchise, but the future looks as bright as your returning starting rotation for 2007.

By David

October 14, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

I wouldn’t bring back Tom Glavine——why on earth would you need two 40-year-old starting pitchers in your starting rotation? Instead of having two 40-yr olds, why not go with just one 80-year old (Cy Young) the greatest pitcher of all times (511 career wins); dig him up from the grave and let him start for you—even if he has to pitch out of a wheelchair—let him pitch—Heck—Cy would probably pitch for free (he wouldn’t be as greedy as the modern day ballplayer (ala Glavine). If Glavine had only been appreciative enough to the Braves for launching his career and had given the Braves a hometown discount for his salary, Glavine would still be pitching for the Braves. But instead, Glavine pulled a Latrelle Sprewell and felt as though he couldn’t feed his family on $11 million dollars a year and left the Braves high and dry without a starting pitcher to keep them competitive. No, don’t bring back Glavine—let him rot in New York.

By Metropolitan Man

October 14, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

The METS will gladly keep Glavine until his arm falls off. I dont get it, many players left the braves for more dough yet glavine and Drew get the most critcism, why is that? After the all star break last year, METS fans finally started accepting him. Now that he has finally earned a portion of his contract in the final stretch, he has been a leader. Dont get me wrong, I stil sometimes see him with a an “A” on his cap, but I know he is a professional and gets the job done (mostly). And if he was that same profeesional for the braves franchise for so long, why all the hate????

By Head Coach

October 14, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

Al I can tell you Metroman is Glavine was the Dude on the mound who won both games two and six for the only world(1995)championship the Atlanta Braves have. He virtually reinvented himself last season with the addition of a cut fastball and became a better pitcher. The man gets nothing but respect from me.

By Canadian Brave

October 14, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

Lets see…Hmmm! 30 Million for 3 years on a team that is cutting its payroll and beginning to stumble or 33 million with an option for a 4th year on a team that is increasing its payroll and trying to build a champion with new players and a new management…hmmm! tough decision. Maybe it should e the ownerships loyalty to the players that is in question and not the other way around. After all isn’t it the fan support and the talent of the players that puts the money in the owners pocket.Why should Glavine have settled for less than market value for a team that obviously had no loyalty to him!! I’m Sure Glavine will always be a Brave whether they bring him back or not! I for one will be happy to see number 300 no matter what the uniform. The braves have a far greater need to increase team speed, acquire a good leadoff man, and give their young pitchers a chance to grow. Don’t I remember Glavine losing 17 games!!! I for one can wait a year or 2 for a championship. I look at our youngters and it feels like 1989 all over again. Let Glavine win 300 with dignity. He is one of the best of our generation no matter what uniform he puts on!!!

By Metropolitan Man

October 14, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Good to know Glavines ATL tenure did touch some people H.Coach. All I know is when great ex-METS players show up to Shea wearing the opponents uniform, its applause and thanks 1st. Then after everyone has settled in, then you get the boos. Piazza had a great return to Shea this year, standing O, video tribute, and he didnt even bring a ring to NY, just a WS appearance. If loyalty is what you hate about Glavine, then check the loyalty of your management who keep trying to lowball hall of famers by calling it a hometown discount when its nothing more than a hometown ripoff. Whatever the METS are paying him, its paying off right now on a grand stage and will problably repeat itself next season.

By Lew

October 14, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

MetroDude-The only problem I foresee for the Mets acquisition of all those free agent pitchers is the pocketbooks of your hated Yankees, the Red Sox, and Blue Jays. They are all looking for pitching, too. It might not be as easy to outbid them. Head Coach. I like Zack Duke, despite his sophomore slump. However, I would rather see Horacio traded for someone decent. He has been terrible every time out of the pen, is going to get expensive real quick, and has a major tendency towards injuries. I think this is at least 3 injured seasons and I think he had surgery in the minors. Not a good track record. I know he’s good when he’s on, but he’s also very inconsisitent. Have you heard how he’s coming in rehab? Davies could do with some more AAA time to get his head on straight.

By Metropolitan Man

October 14, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

I hear ya Lew but look at whats going on right now with those teams you mentioned. Nobody wants to walk into the stankee mess in the Bronx. Boston is ok but their upper management is still looking for clues to waht happened in 2006. The Jays are a good fit but only if you are detemined to beat the stankees. Its like all the newcomers on the METS squad, they all give the same speech….”I wanted to be here and be part of the turn around.” The Jays have a longer route to that turn around becasue of their division. The METS look more attractive becasue they are in the hunt for pitching like everyone else, but they have less holes and needs after that. We could upgrade at 2nd base and maybe a corner outfielder, other than that we are set. Other teams need pitching, leadoff hitters, more run production. This year we will see if the free agents are about the money or winning, the choices for winning arent abundant but its easy to get a big payday on a team going nowhere in 2007.

By David O'Brien

October 14, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

Working on no sleep except what I got on the plane(s) today during 6 a.m. flight to Chicago and connecting flight to St. Louis, so not going to spend much time here. Need to do some stats-crunching and the like before heading over to Busch Stadium.

But I did want to remind folks that today is an anniversary:

On Oct. 14, 1992: In Game 7 of the NLCS, Francisco Cabrera’s ninth inning, two-out pinch single scores two runs giving the Braves a stunning comeback victory, 3-2 over the Pirates. The backup catcher had three hits during the regular season.

By Metropolitan Man

October 14, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB, if you see Trachsel, tell him we still beleive. And I dont know if are around da METS but us fans feel a little steam has left the WS train, are the players feeling the same way??? Last night had to hurt knowing that Gagner cant be counted on in big game situation unless he is given a 3 run lead.

By Jaye'

October 14, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

I have to admit, I am one affected by the “polarizing” ordeal with Tom Glavine’s past contract negotiations with the Atlanta Braves. And while I understand that this sort of thing, these days, happens all the time with so-called “greedy” millionaire ball player who simply want more money. Mike Hampton took a bigger contract and left New York. And most recently, Rafael Furcal took a bigger contract in Los Angeles. So, what makes Glavines rumored whining in the front office so much different? Nothing.

But when I consider that not only rookies-but-veteran players like Brian Jordan and Javy Lopez didn’t really want to leave their “home” team and would have possibly taken less than they were worth to do it, I’m not too thrilled about giving second chances to the millionaires who made the choice to leave Atlanta for bigger contracts. I wouldn’t entertain offers to have Glavine back despite his stellar history in the franchise and potential goodness here. Someone else (like a Chuck James) deserves that spot in the rotation he so willingly gave up. [James is much cheaper too.]

By Jim

October 14, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

I’ve not been on the blog much since the season ended, but I’ve just noticed that someone else has posted with my name. (It happened at least once before, also.)

I have been, and continue to be, a Tommy Glavine fan. He’s one of only 15 pitchers since WWII to have won 20 games or more in 5 or more seasons. (Clemens is the only other current pitcher on that list.) He pitched the clinching game in the ‘95 WS, and is the coolest, toughest competitor in this or any other sport that there is. He gets more out of his ability than almost any other athlete gets out of theirs.

He is a baseball player, and our assessment of him should be left at that. His politics and union work should not draw any more attention than his charitable work and leisure activities. He has not done steroids; he has not beat-up his wife or girl friend; he has not been involved in brawls at bars or strip clubs; he has not been arrested for DUI or other offenses. He has been nothing but professional, on and off the field.

If he were to come back, I think he would be a positive influence in the clubhouse. Having said all that, I don’t think it is the right baseball move to bring him back next year. We need to carve a new identity for the future, not try to revive the last embers of the past. I wish Tommy good luck. I hope he wins his 300th next year (as long as its not against us!), and goes to Cooperstown with an A on his cap.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

Metro Man, I assure you nobody here gives a tin s&%t about Drew (if they do then they shouldn’t). Yeah, free agents leave all the time for more money, but not after 16 years and not straight to the worst enemy when they’re given a fair market offer based on their age and ability (Glavine is pitching worth his salary now, but from about ‘01-05 he wasn’t worth more than what we were offering, or even as much). The only comparable situation I’ve seen is Clemmens going from the Sox to the Yanks, but even then the Sox insulted him first. There is no comparable situation, really. I guess you had to be here (though a lot of people who were here seem not to have cared/noticed). He did everything exactly the wrong way. If the Braves had a dog as a mascot he might as well have kicked it on the way out.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

Man. The Dawgs have to return an interception just to get ahead of Vandy in the 4th quarter. This just ain’t our year.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Ummm, about that. Yeah. Well, I suppose they can cut the “We’re not rebuilding, we’re reloading” crap now. We’re officially rebuilding. UGA football will next be brought up by The Grinch in September ‘07. GO DAWGS!!!

By David

October 14, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

I wouldn’t mind Glavine coming back to the Braves. I would base his pay on a contingency basis stating that he will receive $14 million dollars if he wins 18 or more games as a starting pitcher, along with an innings clause for logging in a certain amount of innings as well. His $14 million dollar salary is contingent on him meeting BOTH of those goals. However, if he were to miss either one of those standards, his salary would immediately be reduced to the major league minimum—-so in other words his salary is deferred until the end of the season and he would only get the total lump sum of $14 million if and only if he met those two goals. That way you get paid on your performance, not paid on what you did yesterday. I would add bonus incentives if he were Sporting News’ Pitcher of the Month; Pitcher of the Year; or even the Cy Young pitcher in the National League. If Tommy agreed to all of these stipulations, I would bring him back and give him his old uniform back. He can even take his old locker if he wants it. But I’d be very reluctant to bringing in the old goat if he came back with the attitude that he should be paid $20 million dollars a year for his services. I would tell him to take a long jump off of a short pier and to never show his face in Atlanta ever again. At any rate, I would honor Glavine by constructing a statute outside of Turner Field next to Henry Aaron’s statute just for the fans of Atlanta to show their appreciation for all the great work that he has done for the Braves organization in all his years in Atlanta and for helping them to win their one and only world series championship in 1995. For that I would say Thank You Mr. Glavine for giving us our championship!

By Shaun Payne

October 14, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Trade Andruw , trade Andruw……listen to yourself Shaun. Your advocating trading a perennial gold glove hall of fame CF in the prime of his career at the ripe old age of 29. I bet you would have traded Frank Robinson in 1965. after all , Frank Robinson was washed up at 29 just like Andruw and yes you should check out his stats after 1965. Andruw can stay a Brave , Schuerholz just has to get creative with the payroll and yes I have have the answer as to how to go about making it happen. Shaun your membership in the Idiocracy is stamped and official , congratulations.

First of all, I don’t really care too much about whether the Braves trade Andruw. I will be happy in Andruw’s in centerfield for the Braves for a while longer. But if the Braves can get two or three of the top young players in the game, I think they should pull the trigger on a deal.

Yes, Andruw is 29 but 29 is not young in baseball terms. Yes, Andruw will remain productive for several more seasons, but players generally peak in their late 20’s.

If you look at almost any player in baseball history, his best years will be in his late 20’s. Even players that don’t put up great numbers in their late 20’s, chances are that’s when their abilities peaked. If a player puts up better numbers earlier or later, it’s usually because he was injured, he wasn’t getting a lot of playing time or something else during his late 20’s peak years.

You bring up Frank Robinson. Yes, he was a great player after 30, but his best year was 1962 at age 26. Robinson was out of this world in ‘62, and was just great in his years after 30. He did declined after turning 30. He was still valuable because when he dropped off, he still had to drop quite a bit to not remain very productive.

Andruw Jones has more than likely peaked already and his peak numbers really aren’t that close to what Frank Robinson did during his peak years. So it follows that it will be very unlikely for Andruw Jones to remain a very legit MVP candidate into his 30’s. He’ll still be a great player, but his years as a top 5 MVP contender are likely done.

That’s why the Braves need to pull the trigger on a deal for AJ if and only if they can get two or three of the top 50 or so players under 24-25.

By TennesseePaul

October 14, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Robinson was out of this world in ‘62, and was just great in his years after 30

Good arguement Payne. You can’t expect to much when all you get is just greatness. We are looking for out-of-this-worldness and AJ has passed that point and is headed straight for the low levels of greatness. Poor guy has to settle for being great now. Must be hard to sleep at night.

Every time you say something like, he’s old (29), his days of being an MVP are likely done, or players usually peak in their mid to late 20’s you do little to justify trading AJ. If AJ is going down hill from an MVP status, he’ll still be up hill from most any prospect that we could get for him. It just doesn’t make sense to trade AJ because he might, or he could, or others slow down, or maybe he’s done, or he may never do again. He’s still a great player. He’ll be a great player for a long time. And even if I were to agree that he’s lost a step, or not as good as he used to be, he’s still as good as any and better than most. If his defense actually were sliding, he could move to LF. But none of these things are true.

Replacing AJ would be very, very hard. His defense and his bat make up a lot of this team. It would leave a big, big hole in this team. To get that level of production back, we’d most certainly have to trade pitching. And pitching is something we need, not really something we can trade.

By Head Coach

October 14, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

Payne, your hilarious but highly entertaining. Maybe you should try some comedic stage work ? Vanderbilt 24 Georgia 22…….. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME ? WHAT IN THE HELL IS MARK RICHT RUNNING , A ZOO ? After last weeks loss I figured 10-2 or 9-3 at worst and a bowl game. but not now. O my God , This is unbelievable.

By Lew

October 14, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Dude-Frank Robinson won the Triple Crown after Cincinnati traded him because he was too old at 30. Big damn mistake. Besides, you are not going to receive three prospects for Andruw. The Angels have been mentioned in relation to Andruw. Why would they or anyone else trade prospects for Andruw when the could get Soriano or Carlos Lee as a free agent without giving up anyone?It just isn’t going to happen. Andruw is just not going to be traded. I refer you to this JS quote-“It (the team) needs some changes and adjustments-not major, not backing up the truck changes, not explosive changes that detonate the entire team and organization.” Trading Andruw would be an explosive change that would detonate the entire team and organization. It just is NOT going to happen.

By Lew

October 14, 2006 05:29 PM | Link to this

I could halfway accept losing to Tennessee last week. At least they are a good team who is ranked. But Vandy? I may not watch anymore football this year. It’s time to just give the Freshman quarterbacks some experience for next year. It does not bode well for Florida, Auburn OR Tech. This may well be a dismal season. It may already be. Vandy?

By Shaun Payne

October 14, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Well, the triple crown stats are overrated. Look at the percentage stats—AVG/OBP/SLG. And Andruw is not the same hitter as Robinson.

I think it’s unlikely AJones will be traded, but it will not destroy the Braves.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

There will still be a bowl game, but it will be one of those ones Tech usually goes to, like the Travelocity.com Gnome Bowl at the University of Alaska at Fairbanks. I wonder if we’ll wait 4 more years before recruiting Quarterbacks again so we can have this problem in ‘09?

By journalist jimmy smith

October 14, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this

bowl of cherries. bowl of pudding. bowlarama. bowlweevil. bowling for dollars. bowld move forward. six wins gets you a bowl, grinch. no sweat. now, baseball … the twins play better national league ball than the braves. do you see their hitters put the ball in play with men on base and two strikes on the batter? they are scoring runs instead of swinging from the heels and falling down. now, cold weather does not bode well for baseball …

By Lew

October 14, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Actually, Shaun-It may very well destroy the Braves-in run production, team psychology and fan psychology. Dude, how did I know you would come up with something about Triple Crown stats being overrated? If it is not significant, then how come it has been done twice in my lifetime? Man you are so far out in left field that Juan Pierre couldn’t hit the cutoff man from where you’re standing.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 06:30 PM | Link to this

Lew, you’re off. Seattle Slew was the only one to win the Triple Crown in your lifetime. :-)

Looking back on my last post: Gnomes…Alaska…Gnomes…Alaska. Ha! The Gnome bowl shold be in Nome, not Fairbanks! Silly me. Journalist Smith, how dare you stress fundamentals!

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

Thomas Brown blew his knee out, as well. There goes the running game, which was the only bright spot. Man, I hope the Falcons win tommorrow.

By Ellen

October 14, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

Well, I never wanted Glavine to go in the first place. It still pains me to see him in New York black and blue. I would LOVE to have him back in Atlanta and think it would be wonderful to see him end his career the way it started…as a Brave. Despite the hatred that some have toward him, he is a big part of this organization’s success in the past 15 years, so he should at the very least be given that respect.

Now, would he accept less to come back? Maybe, but unfortunately, probably not. A 2 year contract is not unreasonable, but the Braves simply don’t have the money to pay him the big bucks that the Mets will. Given he still lives in Atlanta and his wife and kids are still here (and best bud Smoltz), that maybe just maybe he would at least give it a thought or two. However, I doubt Scherholtz is even considering it an option.

By Lew

October 14, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

Grinch-I guess I just forgot that the Mariner’s had a player named Slew. Yes, the Gnome Bowl sounds about where we will be heading. I would settle for whatever bowl they’ve named the Citrus Bowl. Whatever one of the several they play in Orlando now. The Nextell Triple Cheese Burger Car Rental Bowl or some such thing.

By David O'Brien

October 14, 2006 07:46 PM | Link to this

Grinch, Tommy actually did kick the Braves’ mascot dog on the way out of that last negotiation with Kasten and Schuerholz. It was a terrible thing. The beagle didn’t know what hit him.

By David O'Brien

October 14, 2006 07:54 PM | Link to this

Train Wreck, not that I’m advocating signing Glavine, but I don’t think an arm blowout should really rank high on the list of concerns in doing so. The man has NEVER been on the DL, never had arm problems. He throws so free and easy, doesn’t put the kind of stress on his arm that some aging power pitchers like Big Unit, Clemens, and even Smoltz do.

But hey, like I said, it’s unlikely the Mets would lose a bidding war for him, even if he took a hometown discount (and he wasn’t willing to take a discount before, although that had something to do with the tension that existed throughout those negotiations between him and management).

Hey, it’s a bit chilly here in St. Looie, in this open pressbox with no heaters.

Place is a sea of red _ red seats, red T-shirts, red coats.

WOW _ MAGGLIO just gave DETROIT a SWEEP with a walkoff homer!

By TennesseePaul

October 14, 2006 07:55 PM | Link to this

TIGERS WIN

What a frickin way to win it! Walk off 3 run homer. Sheeeeesh. Beans A’s have yet to walk their way to the WS.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 08:09 PM | Link to this

DOB, you sure that was a Beagle and not a Neagle? :-)

Lew, the Citrus is the second-highest SEC bowl (behind the Sugar); one step above the Peach. The Outback Bowl is far more likely (the one right below the Peach). And that’s only if we can beat Kentucky.

By Carolina Lady

October 14, 2006 08:14 PM | Link to this

I’m more interested in a bowl of BBQ. With sweet tea, DOB! :-))

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 08:20 PM | Link to this

CL, does that mean you root for Arkansas?

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 08:35 PM | Link to this

Oops, I goofed earlier. The Cotton Boll is also an SEC Boll, and since it’s a BCS Boll it’s ahead of the Citrus Boll. Which SEC Boll will the Dawgs go to, if any?

Time for a pole.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 08:36 PM | Link to this

I apologize for my last post, but it was really the lesser of two weevils…

By journalist jimmy smith

October 14, 2006 08:48 PM | Link to this

baby seal is rooting for the cardinals and is sporting a little puff of cardinal red spiezio-like chin hair. this makes spiezio look fearsome, don’t you think? it does not do much for baby seal because baby seal does not have a prominent chin. imagine wicky with this fearsome look next season! and why chin hair? why not eyebrows? imagine if tom glavine sports a mets blue chin ornament in his next start …

By journalist jimmy smith

October 14, 2006 08:57 PM | Link to this

now, the dilemma discussed by grinch … this journalist will gladly participate in a pole of which boll. what are the choices?

By elbravox

October 14, 2006 09:48 PM | Link to this

we could have beaten both these teams. we could have been a contender.

By The Grinch

October 14, 2006 09:57 PM | Link to this

I think we should hold a top-secret Boll in Sweeden. Then it could be the Interpol Boll. Add a couple of ugly QB’s that came from a mountainous region, have it sponsored by a pineapple company with the halftime music by the Foo Fighters/Courtney Love and it could be the Interpol Troll Boll sponsored by Dole. Music by Grohl and Hole.

Pole?

By Head Coach

October 14, 2006 10:16 PM | Link to this

Whether the Cardinals or Mets , I really feel sorry for them already.

By KC

October 14, 2006 10:20 PM | Link to this

Thomas:

Sorry for accusing you of being a Mets fan. I guess I just don’t really see where you’re coming from. If they sign Zito as you say, they would still have a rotation comprised of two number-2 starters, and three 5th starters (not factoring Pedro who may or may not be a significant factor next season for the Mets.

In contrast, the Braves could have three number-1 starters (if Tim Hudson bounces back). Either way, think the Braves will almost certain have 1 or 2 legitimate aces on this club next year, with quality arms throughout the rotation 1-5. Atlanta’s rotation will be substantially better than the Mets next year, even if they do sign a Barry Zito. And if the Mets don’t add a big starter or two… God help them. I personally think they overachieved given the weakness of their starting staff, and I don’t think they can do it again with the same cast. I think the Mets took advantage of an historic lack of competition in the NL this season. It ain’t gonna happen next year. The Braves are going to be a much better team. The Cards and Philies will be looking to add some arms. Heck, the Marlins might actually add a couple pieces to go with all their young talent.

If the Mets don’t add an ace and at least one more quality arm on top of that… I say their reign as NL champs will be a brief one.

By TennesseePaul

October 14, 2006 10:48 PM | Link to this

KC: The Mets reign as NL Champs may never be. Suppan is shutting them down tonight. And tomorrow night doesn’t look pretty for the Mets either. They might just get knocked out of this thing in St. Louis.

By TennesseePaul

October 14, 2006 10:51 PM | Link to this

What a frickin play. The Cards have handled the ball so well tonight. It’s been down right impressive.

And why are the Mets forcing black into the uniforms? They’ve squeezed it in there a little more each year. Before you know it, they’ll have black pin stripes with a blue and orange N Y on the left chest.

By Mills

October 14, 2006 11:04 PM | Link to this

I would love to have Tommy back. He would be awesome. And Albert Pujols is a jacka$$. He has no class and I have lost all the respect I ever had for him.

By TennesseePaul

October 14, 2006 11:13 PM | Link to this

Lame. Pujols isn’t a jackass for saying Glavine wasn’t good the other night. That wasn’t the point of his comment. It was more of a lashing of the Cardinal offense than it was of Glavine’s abilities. Glavine threw junk off the plate all night long. It wasn’t particularly amazing stuff he was tossing. Pujols could have worded it better, but he was obviously frustrated with the results of the game.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 14, 2006 11:16 PM | Link to this

remember the low country boll with sausages and shrimp and corn and various other unmentionable ingredients. carolina lady could tell us how to make it. now, cardinals up 2 to 1. tigers in the series. oh, the humanity! one pitch at a time. take what they give us. a new cliche leader in suppan. doesn’t say “you know” a lot though.

By Sherry

October 14, 2006 11:23 PM | Link to this

The Braves were lucky to have such a great pitcher as Glavine and were fools to let him go. He did not leave out of greed! The Braves lowballed him and only offered him the $30 mil at the last minute. Would that make you feel appreciated? After all, it was Glavine that pitched the one-hitter in Game 6 of the World Series to win the title! I have remained a loyal Glavine fan all of his career - from day one until now. I think Atlanta would be lucky to get him back. Some of you so he is too old. Well, look at Smoltz and all of the injuries and surgeries he’s had and they’re giving him $8 mil. Why can’t they give a healthy pitcher that has never been on the DL $10 mil?? If you wanna cut some money, I say get rid of Chipper!!! GO GLAVINE!! This Atlanta girl still loves you!

By Art

October 14, 2006 11:38 PM | Link to this

I think it depends on a couple of things. Do the Braves want to return to the post-season and are they a class organization? If the answers to both those questions are yes, then they do what they should have done 3 years ago. Make good faith negotiations to try and get him. I think the answers to the questions are no. I think they’ll follow the advice of the haters (who seem to think that Glavine owed them some kind of loyalty they didn’t show him and that the Braves have never shown to any of their players.).

By Daybed Wagmoe

October 14, 2006 11:39 PM | Link to this

i would like it if the braves brought glavine back to win #300 next year, but i won’t hold my breath or cry if they don’t. sometime within the past two years, i heard one of the braves announcers say that “atlanta wouldn’t bring glavine back, even if it was for an office job.”

it’d be cool to see glavine win #300 in the uniform he’ll wear in the hall of fame…but that’s it. i wouldn’t want the braves to lose any other players because they’d have to pay for his huge contract for that bit of triviality.

By Head Coach

October 14, 2006 11:48 PM | Link to this

Well , there you have it. The Mets have to win 3 out of 4 games with Tom Glavine and a bunch of cannon fodder pitchers. Now I really , really feel sorry for the Cardinals.

By Stinky

October 15, 2006 12:01 AM | Link to this

Jimmy, go to bed. Your rambling is tiresome.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 15, 2006 12:08 AM | Link to this

Head Coach, why the sudden faith in Jim Leyland, your most-despised manager, and the Tigers, the team you said would fold in the second half?

By David O'Brien

October 15, 2006 12:14 AM | Link to this

Art, solid point, often overlooked.

Met fans, you’ve got a helluva team _ with Pedro healthy.

Without him, just no way to cover up the glaring deficiencies of a rotation that has Tom Glavine accompanied by the Isle Of Misfit Toys.

I’ll say Tigers over Cardinals in five games.

By Thomas

October 15, 2006 12:30 AM | Link to this

Braves free agents:

• Brian Jordan
• Todd Pratt
• Mike Remlinger
• John Thomson
• Daryle Ward
• Danny Baez

On the block:

• Marcus Giles
• Ryan Langerhans
• Horacio Ramirez
• Andruw Jones
• Oscar Villareal

Players the Braves might add concerning their needs:

• Willy Taveras
• Scott Podsednik
• Carl Crawford
• Coco Crisp
• Endy Chavez
• Damaso Marte
• Mike Gonzalez
• Salomon Torres
• Chris Duffy
• Julio Lugo
• Gary Matthews jr

Information is from www.mlb4u.com

By Thomas

October 15, 2006 12:37 AM | Link to this

Is Oliver Perez pitching for the mets tomorow. They should really be short on pitching.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 12:42 AM | Link to this

“The Braves lowballed him and only offered him $30 million at the last minute. Would that make you feel appreciated?” Ummm, yes. It would. Especialy if I had already been payed at or above market value by that team for the last 16 years, making me one of the richest men in professional sports, beloved by my city and the country in general. I would have felt myself beyond blessed. But then, I’m not one of the greediest bastards to ever come down the pike, so my opinion doesn’t matter. I’ve noticed that of the 12 or 13 folks that want G-spot back, about 70% of them are women. I guess y’all are used to deception and are therefore more forgiving.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 01:03 AM | Link to this

“Paid,” excuse me. Scott Spezio’s chin looks like an ex of mine, and yes, her face is smooth. How ‘bout them Thrashers? FLBravesgirl, I looked Tanith Belbin up today and I agree with your assessment. She does not look like a hobbit. Did you get her phone number when you met her? Not that I’m interested, mind you; I just thought she might like some tutoring if she’s a history major. If my schedule permitted, of course. :-)

By Drummerdad

October 15, 2006 01:14 AM | Link to this

Art, I disagree with your conclusions about Braves management and their mode of operation. You make it sound as if Schuerholz wants to develop a bad team and miss the playoffs again. He’s won’t be Braves GM a whole lot longer and the last thing that man wants is to leave with things either mediocre or washed up on the shore. By his account in his book, Glavine’s beef was not with him, but with Stan Kasten. I’ve never heard Tom refute John’s account, just differed with airing it. Glavine wanted to stay and bowed to external pressure to leave. He’s a Union Man. 4 years ago, he was an aging pitcher who, by the end of the series with the Giants, looked like he was done. And he has just begun to play well again this year: CONTRACT YEAR!! Javy Lopez did the same thing. It wouldn’t really bother me to see him in a Braves uniform again. By all rights he should go out as a Brave with the other pillars. For what he meant to the organization he probably should have gotten better treatment from Kasten, but he sure got better than Gary Sheffield got.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 01:26 AM | Link to this

Drummerdad, I bow to your knowledge and experience (I have not read JS’s book). That and your general good nature/banality. Being a mischevous fellow in general, I tend towards the devil’s rather than angel’s advocate. Now I’m thinking food cake. Yummmm. :-)

By Drummerdad

October 15, 2006 01:45 AM | Link to this

Grinch, Banality here. that devil’s food cake is middle aged man heart attack stuff this time of night. Of course, if you get the food topic going, then you might get Journalist Jimmy and the Carolina Lady talking seafood and coastal cuisine. Where I live, it’s called Beaufort Broil or Frogmore Stew. And Grinch, devil’s food cake won’t do after having that stuff, you’ll have to have Key Lime pie. For now: angel’s advocate, over and out.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 01:55 AM | Link to this

Key Lime! Graham crackers…Oh, the humanity! I can’t bear it. Night, all…

By Drummerdad

October 15, 2006 02:06 AM | Link to this

yes, even Grinch’s need sleep.

By Head Coach

October 15, 2006 02:29 AM | Link to this

Tom A. Hawk , I still despise Leyland for what he did to my Braves. I also respect him for what he has done for the Tigers. In case you forgot , the Tigers went 19-31 and backed into the playoffs , fortunately for them the Whitesox and Redsox came unglued to and that was something even I couldn’t predict. So , yea I am still technically right. The Tigers played like I expected they would in the second half but the Sox didnt and that tipped the boat. They have woke up and played brilliantly in the playoffs so far and like Schuerholz has said , the playoffs are a crapshoot , anything can happen and the Tigers are proving it.

By Andy

October 15, 2006 02:38 AM | Link to this

Glavine was a great brave—great for the clubhouse—the standings—“our” one world championship. The Braves offered x—the mets offered x plus whatever. He took the better deal…….oh my god he sucks—so glad that that ba$@^&$d is gone. Oh that’s right….its true…he is a union guy. Thank god he is gone. What exactly did he do that was so wrong. Protect his rights with other players—take the best offer given to him. Be the man on the hill to win it all for the Braves. I love the braves—its sucks that he is gone. But come on. When the braves had turner(the good ole days) the braves had a payroll and bought people JS thought we needed. Now its different—if the braves were still owned by turner would we even be talking about Glavine being with the mets—-(much less would we have wagner instead of the mets —and if the braves (with turner) had wagner the cards would be striking out frenchy) Its only my thoughts—-but no. Glavine would be with the braves. AND if he (glavine)had had the same last three years before this one people would be screaming-“why hasn’t JS traded or realeased Glavine by this point…bla bla bla. I mean Andruw Jones sets career highs in rbi’s and “people” are like “get rid of him he’s done. He’s about to approach the logan’s run deadline.” Come on decietful(sp.)glavine—your in a negoation or maybe a date—with your wife whatever. You say what you need to say to get the best deal. No you do not look fat in that dress. Glavine was great. He has bascially sucked the last 2.5 years and then he’s kicked butt for a year and a half. Good for him. If the braves had a chance to get him. wow. But as dave o’brien said the mets would not lose a bidding war for glavine. Neither would the braves if they had had Turner.

By berigan

October 15, 2006 05:11 AM | Link to this

Grinch, in your 12:42 AM post, you managed to insult both men and women, congrats! ;)

By berigan

October 15, 2006 06:11 AM | Link to this

KC, I beg to differ with your 10:20 PM post to Thomas. You said….. Thomas: *Sorry for accusing you of being a Mets fan. I guess I just don’t really see where you’re coming from. If they sign Zito as you say, they would still have a rotation comprised of two number-2 starters, and three 5th starters (not factoring Pedro who may or may not be a significant factor next season for the Mets.

In contrast, the Braves could have three number-1 starters (if Tim Hudson bounces back). Either way, think the Braves will almost certain have 1 or 2 legitimate aces on this club next year, with quality arms throughout the rotation 1-5. Atlanta’s rotation will be substantially better than the Mets next year, even if they do sign a Barry Zito.* KC, how is Barry Zito not an ace??? He had the tenth best ERA for starters in the A.L. at 3.83. He was 3rd in innings pitched inthe A.L, with 221(My how times have changed, eh?)Doesn’t that sound like an ace? While Smoltz had to face a pitcher batting .124, Zito was facing people like David Ortiz, and Travis Hafner, and Giambi and Zito had to pitch in bandboxes like Fenway and Yankee stadium(How many cheap homers did Giambi have this year?) So, if he comes to the N.L. next year, playing in generally bigger parks, against players who aren’t used to his big curveball, and with no DH, he should knock that career ERA below 3.55. And besides Smoltz, who are the other potential #1’s? Hudson with an ERA a full run higher than Zito’s last year? 7th worst amongst starters in the NL? Or are you saying Hampton is a better pitcher than Zito? I really like Hampton, and pitchers often come back from his surgery, but he has pitched 69 innings in 2 seasons!! He is 34, can we expect him to pitch 200+ innings next year? Then pitch in the playoffs? Could you expect ANY injured player to do that? Hampton hasn’t pitched 200 innings since 2001. The league hits .271 against him over his career. Or did you mean Chuck James? 11-4, with a 3.78 ERA? Gee, in 2005 Jorge Sosa was 13-3 with a 2.55 ERA.

I really hope the Braves will have a great year in 2007, but hope will only get you so far. If J.S. thinks he can count on a 40 year old who has had several elbow surgeries, a 31 year old who has pitched like a 4th, or 5th starter his 2 seasons here, a 34 year old who has missed the better part of 2 seasons, and a 24 year old kid with 18 big league starts…well then J.S. will be scratching his head wondering why the Mets, Phils, and Marlins are all far ahead of the Braves in June.

By berigan

October 15, 2006 06:22 AM | Link to this

Drat, let me try this again…

KC, I beg to differ with your 10:20 PM post to Thomas. You said….. Thomas:Sorry for accusing you of being a Mets fan. I guess I just don’t really see where you’re coming from. If they sign Zito as you say, they would still have a rotation comprised of two number-2 starters, and three 5th starters (not factoring Pedro who may or may not be a significant factor next season for the Mets. In contrast, the Braves could have three number-1 starters (if Tim Hudson bounces back). Either way, think the Braves will almost certain have 1 or 2 legitimate aces on this club next year, with quality arms throughout the rotation 1-5. Atlanta’s rotation will be substantially better than the Mets next year, even if they do sign a Barry Zito.

KC, how is Barry Zito not an ace??? He had the tenth best ERA for starters in the A.L. at 3.83. He was 3rd in innings pitched inthe A.L, with 221(My how times have changed, eh?)Doesn’t that sound like an ace? While Smoltz had to face a pitcher batting .124, Zito was facing people like David Ortiz, and Travis Hafner, and Giambi and Zito had to pitch in bandboxes like Fenway and Yankee stadium(How many cheap homers did Giambi have this year?) So, if he comes to the N.L. next year, playing in generally bigger parks, against players who aren’t used to his big curveball, and with no DH, he should knock that career ERA below 3.55. And besides Smoltz, who are the other potential #1’s? Hudson with an ERA a full run higher than Zito’s last year? 7th worst amongst starters in the NL? Or are you saying Hampton is a better pitcher than Zito? I really like Hampton, and pitchers often come back from his surgery, but he has pitched 69 innings in 2 seasons!! He is 34, can we expect him to pitch 200+ innings next year? Then pitch in the playoffs? Could you expect ANY injured player to do that? Hampton hasn’t pitched 200 innings since 2001. The league hits .271 against him over his career. Or did you mean Chuck James? 11-4, with a 3.78 ERA? Gee, in 2005 Jorge Sosa was 13-3 with a 2.55 ERA. I really hope the Braves will have a great year in 2007, but hope will only get you so far. If J.S. thinks he can count on a 40 year old who has had several elbow surgeries, a 31 year old who has pitched like a 4th, or 5th starter his 2 seasons here, a 34 year old who has missed the better part of 2 seasons, and a 24 year old kid with 18 big league starts…well then J.S. will be scratching his head wondering why the Mets, Phils, and Marlins are all far ahead of the Braves in June.

By jim

October 15, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

If you IDIOTS who hate Glavine had half a brain, you would understand what a great competitor he is, and that he just took the best deal he was offered. Get over it! EVERY MAJOR LEAGUE MANAGER WOULD TAKE 25 GLAVINES ON HIS TEAM IF HE COULD GET THEM!!! Yes it’s obscene how much money they’re paid to play a kid’s game that’s fun, but who is anyone to say what is too much??? What about rock stars, movie stars, supermodels? None of them are “worth” more than a teacher, fireman, or mother but that’s the free enterprise system for ya, ESPECIALLY IN THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTY. Go take an economics 101 course. Grow up! It’s called freedom to choose where and by whom you want to be employed; in an industry that has a huge revenue stream and very few employees (25). Is it always good or fair for the fans and the game? Probably not, but that hasn’t hurt the quality of the product or the fan interest(all time attendance in 06). And while you’re at it why don’t you read the history of the Reserve Clause in baseball and see how the owners were ruled against probably 99 out of 100 times the two sides ended up in court. I don’t care one way or the other if he comes back. Sure it would be “NICE” and loyalty is great if it’s a two way street, but that only goes so far, and juggling the money vs. production is always the issue. And spring for some seats one time right under the net behind home plate and you’ll see what a humbling game baseball can be for both hitter and pitcher; and WHY SOME, NOT ALL, GET PAID WHAT THEY DESERVE!!!

By Lew

October 15, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

I would like to propose a new award- The Juan Pierre Way The Hell Out In Left Field Award. I would have considered giving this award to Shaun for his maniacal reliaqnce on stats to the exclusion of well, whatever….I now have a new nominee-George Will, noted political analyst and huge baseball fan. I just read a Will article about overspending on baseball (the Yankees) and the fact that the expenditure doesn’t always lead to success. This, in and of itself, is not a new concept. However, Will blames it on the fact that New York is the geographic center of Political Liberalism and his opinion that Political Liberalism solves problems by throwing money as a solution. I think George Will has just passed Shaun for the lead in this award race. Journalist Jimmy-Any idea what we should name this award? The Juany?

By paluka

October 15, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

The Mets need Glavine back their pitching is a mess for next year. Zito does not want to play in New York, he’ll probably go to San Diego. Schmidt will probably go to Seattle. Therefore the Mets will give Glavine the $14M option. Otherwise, if I’m JS I would offer Glavine 2 years at $8M per with an option for $6M. At the very least Glavine would be a bargain at $8M as a 3rd or 4th starter. I think he would accept because in the long run he will be making more money over the life of the contract plus I think he would alo like to win #300 with Atlanta and go into HOF as a Brave DOB: who may be interested in Horacio or Kyle Davies?

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

By The Grinch October 14, 2006 08:20 PM CL, does that mean you root for Arkansas?

Arkansas…..hmmmm……American League?? :-))

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Glavine has said that he will retire as soon as he gets his 300 wins. He’s almost there. Why not offer him a one year contract (max $8 mil - what Smoltz makes) with a 2nd year option. He’ll have incentive to pitch extremely well to reach his goal, he’ll be back home with his family, and will still have that option open if he fails in the 300-win quest in ‘07. If he accepted that, he’d truly show where his heart lies. If he doesn’t, he proves that money is his #1 priority. How many million does a person need, anyway. Other players have turned down mega-bucks to stay with family, a certain team, whatever, and have still had more money than they could ever spend in a lifetime. Just a thought…..probably not worth even 2 cents…:-)))

By Sherry L.

October 15, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

To The Grinch’s 12:42 a.m. post - Is that the best you can do? Sounds like a bit of envy to me. More women like Glavine than you? Get over it! He is a top-notch baseball player and leader. I have met him and he has more class in his left pinky than you do in your entire body! GO GLAVINE!!

By Drummerdad

October 15, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Excellent idea Carolina Lady!!!
Do you know of Low Country cuisine such as Frogmore Stew or Beaufort Broil? Perhaps you call it something else up there.

By ernesto

October 15, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

DOB- are there Blogs in the off-season. If so, are they going to be once a week or more often?

By Lew

October 15, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

Now Y’all-Be nice to Grinchy-he has issues.DrummerDad-Not sure about Frogmore Stew. It gives rise to images best left unexplored.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Sticks and stones, Sherry L. I’m glad to see you’re objective (and mature) enough to make schoolyard taunts regarding someone you have met vs. someone you haven’t. Everyone here knows I like to stir up a little $#%& every now and then with a controversial comment; looks like you took the bait. Don’t worry, I’m not going to interfere with your “private” time involving your Glavine poster. :-)

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

Hey, DrummerDad! I sure do know Frogmore Stew/Beaufort Broil! Goooood stuff! :-))

Sherry, don’t pay Grinch any mind. He means well - just misses the mark sometime. In reality, he’s one of the ‘good guys.’

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

And the only woman who supports me is the only one who agrees about Glavine…an interesting study could occur here if one were so inclined to persue it. Thank you, CL. You know, I actually had a dream about baby seals last night…what a trip! So what is this Frog/Stew/Boil thing? My curiosity’s piqued.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Man, the Falcons and Giants are trying real hard to give the game to each other and neither will take it. 3 turnovers in the last 4 minutes. Blah! Lew, I advocated calling Pierre “Froggy,” think that might be a good name for your award?

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Grinch, before I go into details about the recipe, how good are you at catching frogs? :-))

By David O'Brien

October 15, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

Just doing stats on Stats Inc this afternoon. Check these out, Mets in LCS (it ain’t just the pitching that’s struggling):

The Mets have hit .196 overall including .171 (6-for-35) with runners on base, .118 (2-for-17) with RISP, and 0-for-9 with RISP and two outs.

After the sixth inning, they’ve hit .148 (4-for-27) with one extra-base hit and no RBIs….

By the way, I will go out on a limb here and guarantee that if Glavine repeats this season next year, or even comes close _ if he wins 12-15 games and still feels good, he’s not going to retire, not if he can still command a good salary (which he obviously could if he’s healthy and productive).

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this

Honestly, I’ve only got a few left here and I’d like to keep them croaking (or “from croaking” as the case may be…wait, that could go either way). That’s one of the very few wild animals I’ve never been big on eating. Dove, Quail, Deer, Goose, Rattlesnake, Boar, whatever; but I’ve just never felt quite right about Mr. Froggie (though I admit his legs are tasty). Can another wild meat be substituted? Although I guess that would neccessitate a name change… DOB, do you get a sense of “here we go again” from the Mets fans up there?

By Glass Half Full

October 15, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this

Let’s hope the NL East Division winner curse continues tonight. Only 2 teams from the NL East have won the Series in the past 20 years…fear the curse Mets fans.

By Glass Half Full

October 15, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

Mets vs. Tigers would be a more compelling World Series, but I can’t bring myself to root for the Mets.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Whoo-hoo! Warrick Dunn just had a 90-yard touchdown run for the Falcons. Lew, didn’t he use to play for you guys? Much obliged. :-)

By journalist jimmy smith

October 15, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

frogs? jimmy smith knew it! this low country boil is not to be trusted. we have heard from many bloggers on this subject (even the no longer relevant ugly blogger left this journalist a greeting) and jimmy smith can only deduce that after the corn and the shrimp and the sausages anything can be thrown into the pot. now this question, are oyster crackers appropriate with this dish? and what of devil’s food cake? drummerdad is right - devil’s food cake is for another day. and as to lew’s award … the noodle. arm like a noodle - appropriate name for an award. now, glavine … the name brings up many sentiments. an appropriate song to be played when glavine enters the game? “look for the union label …” journalist thinks this is not a real union but that’s what the players want to call it. now, american league tigers … playing like a national league team. oh, the humanity! it is fun watching these tigers. now, music … where is the talk of music today? only jimmy smith has mentioned a song. now, toes … not to be trifled with.

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

Here you are, Grinch: FROGMORE STEW INGREDIENTS 3 quarts water 1 lemon, halved 1 medium onion, halved 2 cloves garlic, smashed 1 teaspoon coarse salt to taste 1 (3 ounce) package dry crab boil 1 1/2 pounds medium red potatoes, scrubbed 1 pound smoked sausage, cut into 1 inch pieces 4 ears fresh corn, shucked and broken in half 1 1/2 pounds unpeeled, large fresh shrimp 1/2 cup butter, melted DIRECTIONS Bring the water to a boil in a very large pot. Squeeze the lemon juice into the water, then throw in the halves. Add the onion, garlic, salt and crab boil. Reduce heat to a simmer, cover, and cook for about 10 minutes. Add the potatoes and sausage; cover and simmer for 20 minutes. Add the corn and cook for 10 minutes. Remove from the heat and stir in the shrimp. Let sit covered for 5 minutes or until shrimp are pink. Drain, and serve with melted butter for dipping. Broth may be reserved and reused for cooking rice or other soups. (Some people don’t use potatoes - optional.)

By journalist jimmy smith

October 15, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

wd-40. carolina lady left out the wd-40.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

That sounds quite remarkably tasty. I see I was taken advantage of by the frog question; points to you! Journalist Jimmy, you’re in good form today. I counted no less than five transitions in that paragraph. I do not believe devil’s food cake would be very good in the Frogmore stew.

I second the vote for “Noodle.” Of course, that makes me think of hunting catfish with a knife…

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

jimmy, if you use WD-40, you have to add 2 tablespoons of Listerine. Surely you knew that!

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this

I will not, for the remainder of the football season, bring up a team of mine on this blog when they have a big lead and the game isn’t over. This has been jinx number two.

By Thomas

October 15, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

Tonight:

Mets vs Cardinals

Pitchers:

• Oliver Perez: 3-13 with a 6.33ERA this season. I think he has a lot of talent, in 2004 he had an awesome season 12-10 2.98ERA, and he can throw 97mph. He is gonna get crushed today, first his control is a mess, and he is in that roster just to fill in. I would have started Darren Oliver, and have Oliver Perez as long reliever.

• Anthony Reyes: It was him or Jason Marquis, I think Tony Larussa is just putting the hottest pitcher between, the two. I still think he should have gone with Marquis, because of his expirience.

By max

October 15, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

No Only NO But HELL NO!! Him & Smoltz Are Through!!

By KC

October 15, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

berigan:

There is of course no quantifiable definition of an “ace”, but in my opinion Zito hasn’t been one in several years. His 3.83 ERA was definitely good, and well above average these days (especially in the AL). The fact remains that an ERA slightly under 4.00 is really nothing to write home about, and it the best ERA he’d posted in 4 years. His ERA over the last three seasons is 4.04. That doesn’t qualify him as an “ace” in my book. He’s still a “top-of-the-rotation” type of guy, and obviously anyone would be happy to have him, but an ERA of close to 4.00 puts you in number-2 starter territory as far as I’m concerned.

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Smoltz is through?? Without bullpen failure, he would have had..what? 20 wins this year?? I respectfully have to disagree, Max. Just my opinion. :-))

By David O'Brien

October 15, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

Max, what about Smoltz and Glavine this season would lead you to believe they are “through”? Just wondering. Not being a smarta*#, either, just seriously wondering what you meant.

Speaking of music (jimmy), I was about to relate that I’ve finally become fully aware of the greatness of this band The Whigs from Athens, Ga. Don’t know why it took me so long to get their CD that came out months ago, “Give ‘Em All a Black Eye,” but man, it’s terrific. A straight-ahead rock band that reminds me at times of Replacements, or any other garage-rock sounding, loose, rockin’ outfit. Definitely suggest and highly recommend it to others.

And the good thing is, it’s available cheap at most used and/or new record stores. I got it for $8 I think, and have seen it many places for under $10. Every song on it’s solid.

By KC

October 15, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

max:

Smoltz is through???!!!!! What the *$#%)#$%^& are you smokin’ man?

Smoltz finished the year with an excellent ERA of 3.49 that ranked him 7th in the league and 10th in all of baseball. His stuff and velocity are still as good as they’ve ever been. And the only reason he didn’t win 20-plus games this season is because the bullpen was so bad (for the majority of the season), it bordered on criminal.

So I’m not sure what your rationale is for claming that Smoltz is “through”… but I’d love to hear it.

By David O'Brien

October 15, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

DAMN _ I meant to “Give ‘Em All a Fat Lip.” That’s the name of the excellent Whigs CD. not black eye, fat lip.

Smoltz is “through”…still pondering that one….

By David O'Brien

October 15, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

Straight from Tom Glavine’s mouth, while he’s literally talking in the interview room right now, here’s a quote as I type it (he said this about 50 seconds ago):

“Most of the time we’ve faced the adversity pretty well [this season]. Judging from the way the guys are in the clubhouse right now, everybody’s pretty loose and we’re ready to go. We still feel like we’re very much alive and can win this thing…”

I should point out, don’t know how available that Whigs CD is outside of the Atlanta market, though any indie record store would have it. don’t know about your local Best Buy in Buffalo or Butte.

By Lew

October 15, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the Award Name Suggestions. The Froggy may just be it. Maybe the award winner should get a portrait of Juan Pierre’s arm-hell maybe a portrait of Juan Pierre himself. Anyway, George Will leads with Shaun coming in second. Does anyone else have a nomination for the “So Far Out In Left Field That Juan Pierre Couldn’t Hit The Cut-Off Man Award”, henceforth to be known as “The Froggy”? This may rival the Mendoza Line for baseball innovation.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 15, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

fat lip. black eye. stubbed toe. something like that. now, more music … “some humans ain’t human/some people ain’t kind/ you open up their hearts/ here’s what you’ll find/ a few frozen pizzas/ some ice cubes with hair/ a broken popsicle, you don’t want to go there.” now, transition again (journalist is feeling good today) … cod liver oil will be in short supply following the earthquake in hawaii. all cod liver oil users are asked to conserve. anyone know the relation between cod liver oil and good toe health? prize for the correct answer.

By TennesseePaul

October 15, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

Maybe Max was talking about this season for both. Smoltz’s season is obviously over and Glavine’s is about to come to an end.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

Cod liver oil is good for circulation. Frostbite prevention?

Lew, I’m working on it. Any category restrictions? By the way, right after I opened my mouth about the Falcons, Atlanta blew a 14-3 lead at home, and all three other teams in the NFC South rallied to beat better teams. I can’t believe the Saints are probably gonna win the division. Detroit in the World Series, Saints in the playoffs, snowfights in hell…

By DHD

October 15, 2006 07:02 PM | Link to this

NO

By Lew

October 15, 2006 07:10 PM | Link to this

Grinch-No category restrictions, but the final result will be voted on by the Wurlitzer selection committee (and the Wurlitzer winner, if he so desires). We will think of an appropriate portrait for me to do as the prize. I mean we might as well do it up right. Nominations should be made by anyone on the blog, for the Selection Committee’s final approval. Just post the nominee, the reason for the nomination, and anything else that may be relevant to the situation. Refer to my 11:53 a.m and 5:51pm posts from today to see what it’s all about.

By KC

October 15, 2006 07:14 PM | Link to this

FOOTBALL SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can’t stand people who rag on baseball and talk about how wonderful football is. “There’s not enough action in baseball”.

Every time I’ve ever tried to sit down and watch a football game… it’s the same thing. They move the ball a few years, and then play stops. They move the ball another few yards, and then play starts again. I fail to see how people who don’t have the patience for baseball, find football so much more interesting. Basketball I could understand. At least that really is non-stop action… but football??

All football does is detract from baseball and basketball coverage. For this reason, I hate football with a passion!!!!

Thanks for letting me share. I feel better now.

By KC

October 15, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this

BREAKING NEWS:

Bobby Cox just said in an interview that Chris Reitsma might very well be Atlanta’s setup man next year, provided he’s healthy

By KC

October 15, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this

Just kidding. I made the Chris Reitsma report up. Just wanted to see if anyone was paying attention. .

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

KC my friend, I feel oh so sorry for you. I’ll put you on my Christmas list. :-)

By Jack

October 15, 2006 08:11 PM | Link to this

No! Spend the money elsewhere.

By KC

October 15, 2006 08:20 PM | Link to this

GRINCH:

GREAT!!!!!! I want a Suzie Talks A-lot and a Radio Flyer, and all 3 seasons of the Greatest American Hero on DVD!!

By ncscoots

October 15, 2006 08:22 PM | Link to this

Lew, don’t think you can actually put Shaun up for your “Left Field” award. While you or I might not agree with guy on some things, the fact is that his opinions are based on valid and logical arguments that can be supported by statistical evidence. On the other hand, we got TONS of folks on the blog spouting stuff so off-the-planet that left field would be akin to a return to normalcy; opinions stated as fact with absolutely no basis in reality, and so bizarre I have to read them twice to make sure that I didn’t suddenly become dyslexic. Try some of THEM bubbas out for your award, my friend.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 15, 2006 08:40 PM | Link to this

sunglasses again at a night game. yes, this journalist will bring it up. why is larussa wearing sunglasses in the dugout tonight? bobby cox is said to have worn sunglasses once in the dugout during a day game but the lenses continued to get smeared with a sticky substance that obscured bobby’s vision and was hard to clean off. hint: not sugar but rhymes with sugar. bobby had to discontinue wearing the shades. but larussa wears them at all times - even in the dark of night. perhaps someone will explain.

By Lew

October 15, 2006 08:48 PM | Link to this

Scoots-Ordinarily I would agree with you. However, I refer you to my 5:14pm post of 10-14 and Shan’s reply at 5:32 pm also on 10:14. I’m sorry, but this one is so far out in left field that Juan Pierre could not hit the cutoff man while standing there. It really is a moot point. I’m not allowed to nominate anyone, because I’m on the selection committee. Besides, if I wanted one of my portraits, I’d just do what I wanted and keep it. Now the winner of the Froggy Award will be the person who nominates the winning entry. Unless Shaun wins, in which case I’ll do the portrait for him. This is not a joke prize. There are several people on this blog that will tell you I am a damn good artist. I’ll send you proof if you need it.

By Lew

October 15, 2006 08:59 PM | Link to this

Scoots-Also, If I had a nomination, it would be the columnist George Will for his assertion that the Yankees overspend on salary becuase they are from New York, the geographic center of Political Liberalism. Will contends that since Liberals solve problems by throwing money at it, that this is why the Yankees do it. I mean, it’s Clinton’s fault.

By KC

October 15, 2006 09:01 PM | Link to this

nscoots:

Never had a chance to respond to your post the other day…

“so, KC, a bullpen of Paronto-Yates-McBride-Foster-Boyer-Wickman inspires you to confidence? If you slide in a long reliever there somewhere, who is your 8th inning guy? Or go the other way, if you add an 8th inning guy, which in that group is your long reliever? I don’t know…there’s a good deal of potential in that group, but it’s a long way from there to believing there’s a bullpen ERA of 3 in them. It’s tough to imagine that JS will go into the season with that much uncertainty in ANY pitching area.”

I never said that bullpen inspired a great deal of confidence as is. But if you add a proven veteran setup man… and then yes, I would have confidence in the pen.

Again, both McBride and Yates really showed us something late in the season. McBride had an ERA of under 2.00 from July 16th onward, and Yates posted a 2.70 ERA in September under pressure as the Braves’ setup man. Chad Paronto finished the season with a very respectable 3.19 ERA. So if they go get a setup man… there’s 5 roles already set. Then, between Boyer, Foster, and Villareal… they can pick two relievers to round out the pen. I think we’re a proven setup man away from an excellent bullpen next season.

By JJMB

October 15, 2006 09:10 PM | Link to this

journalist jimmy smith,

Opiates dialate the eye(s). Often addicts wear sunglasses indoors, and at night to reduce light sensitivity.

By KC

October 15, 2006 09:17 PM | Link to this

Braves off-season checklist (or at least, what it should be):

1- Sign or trade for a setup man 2- Sign Juan Pierre or Dave Roberts 3- Sign Wes Helms 4- Re-sign D.Ward

Do those 4 things… and they’re done.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 09:21 PM | Link to this

KC, instead of the “talks a lot” doll I’ll just send you an ex of mine. Then, you’ll wish you were able to “walk on air.”

Jimmy Smith, I think LaRussa’s related to Corey Hart. God, I’m getting old.

Lew, there you go with your ego again.

By Stinky

October 15, 2006 09:30 PM | Link to this

Perhaps journalist jimmy smith will explain why he talks in the third person despite the fact that we all know he is retarded.

By JJMB

October 15, 2006 09:52 PM | Link to this

Does anyone know what Delgado does during the National Anthem now? Does he sit, go in the tunnel, stand, take a dump?

I just saying, he’s in NY now, the epicenter of United States of America patriotism.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 15, 2006 10:02 PM | Link to this

jjmb, think so? have to place an asterisk next to his record, right? now, knowing about corey hart indicates the grinch is an old timer much like bob only much younger. did someone wake bob for the playoffs? now, lew is a talented artist- baby seal intends to enter the contest. someone has pens envy and it ain’t pretty.

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 10:17 PM | Link to this

jjs, Bob is continuing to have computer problems. Don’t think he is online.

By Lew

October 15, 2006 10:26 PM | Link to this

Now Stinky-Are you trying for a Froggy Nomination? Journalist Jimmy speaks in the third person because he chooses to. This is as it should be. Do you not, after all, have your own affectations and masks? Yes, Grinch-One must look out for my ego. I’m always careful not to trip over it myself.

By no glavine please

October 15, 2006 10:39 PM | Link to this

no.

By JJMB

October 15, 2006 10:39 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady, thanks for your response the other night regarding the Lidle plane crash.

I’m unfamiliar with the Cirrus SR20. One site I found discussed it’s propensity to drop a wing during a stall, and unrecoverability. I wondered if you saw that, or had an opinion on it.

A write-up I found was here

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 10:40 PM | Link to this

Man, St. Louis sucks. They can’t even finish off the Mets in a timely fashion. Detroit’s gonna wipe the floor with them. Jimmy, there’s a difference between old and ancient. Bob’s so old, his blood type’s been discontinued. He’s so old, when he walks by a graveyard people chase him down with shovels. He’s so old, he farts dust. etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Love ya, Bob! :-)

JJMB, New York’s a symbol for patriotism, but it sure ain’t the epicenter. Delgado probably opens TV dinners with a box-cutter.

By The Grinch

October 15, 2006 10:44 PM | Link to this

Tripping over one’s ego can cause toe problems. Lew, may I suggest a pair of Red Goose shoes? A wise man once said, “Toes are not to be trifled with.” Or so I’ve heard. :-)

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 15, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

Well, let’s hope Chipper’s toes are doing well and will be ready for spring training.

By JJMB

October 15, 2006 11:02 PM | Link to this

Grinchy, you crack me up.

By Tomahawkin

October 15, 2006 11:05 PM | Link to this

Grinch the fact that St. Louis is so bad really p-i-s-s-es me off…We could easily take these guys, had it not been for our crappy Blow-pen we could take dese guys to the wire…Cards and Braves games are always good…

By Sherry L.

October 15, 2006 11:10 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I was only judging by what you put out here for all to see. That’s fine if you wanna stir up some s#$%, just be able to take back what you dish out. And don’t worry, I wouldn’t let you or anyone else keep me from my private time with my Glavine poster! :-p Seriously, if you research the facts, Atlanta did not do enough to keep him here. And I think the Braves would be lucky to get him back. Look at his numbers vs. Smoltz.

BTW, to all the Mets haters, they are winning right now 12-5, top of the 8th. Check out Glavine tomorrow night to refresh your memories.

By Carolina Lady

October 15, 2006 11:26 PM | Link to this

Hey, JJMB! Hmmm. That was an excellent article; hadn’t read it before and did not know of the unrecoverability factor of a Cirrus spin. Amazing. In NY, it could have been the beginning of a stall, an attempt to turn away from the building - just don’t know. I’m truly puzzled as to why they turned toward the buildings instead of staying over the river. Central Park is not far away; perhaps there was hope of reaching the Park and deploying the chute. Just don’t know. When things happen “quick and dirty”, there is little time to think sometimes. I’ll certainly be interested in reading the NTSB report when it is issued! Lots of questions!

By JJMB

October 15, 2006 11:27 PM | Link to this

Yeah Sherry, Grinch is a real menace (eyes roll).

By journalist jimmy smith

October 15, 2006 11:28 PM | Link to this

robertjitb poses an interesting question, whither chipper’s toes? are these toes (uncertain how many) a huntin’? are these toes squished into little pointed cowboy-boot-toes? does anyone own red goose stock? is there a broker on this blog? will toe separators work with fewer than five toes? not sure, just a rumor.

By Tomahawkin

October 15, 2006 11:34 PM | Link to this

I still got love 4 Glavine, I grew up watching him, read his book, and still enjoy watchin him work, But I don’t want him back, I think he’s gonna be too expensive, and besides there will be other teams in search of #1 or 2 starter.On a team that is weak in starters he qualifies as an Ace of a staff, so we’ll lose the bidding war nontheless…When he retires he needs to just sign a one year contract with the team, and retire a Brave, Like what Jerry Rice did with the 49ers

By journalist jimmy smith

October 15, 2006 11:37 PM | Link to this

sherry l, welcome to the blog (if really sherry l and not you-know-who with a new female identity). the grinch gets along with all the ladies so you will soon come over to his ways. grinch is suave. not sure what that is but he has his own vegetable garden and that’s where he gets his suave. this journalist hopes glavine will refresh this journalist’s memory tomorrow night of tom glavine in the playoffs of 2002. still, the mets are really hitting the ball tonight and deserve to win - tonight.

By JJMB

October 15, 2006 11:53 PM | Link to this

Yeah, CL, maybe too much airplane too soon. It’s a damn shame, and I regret diminishing the tradegy of it all.

Thank you, flbravesgirl for your comments, also.

By flbravesgirl

October 16, 2006 12:27 AM | Link to this

Grinch, I was pretty sure you’d like Tanith.

Now for a totally unrelated subject: If anyone here knows someone who enjoys dance and the “So You Think You Can Dance” tour is coming near them, tell them to get tickets now. I just got home from the Tampa show. It was one of the best shows of any kind I’ve ever seen. Just incredible!

By David O'Brien

October 16, 2006 12:42 AM | Link to this

JJMB, whatever he does, they don’t seem to have a problem with him in the “epicenter of U.S. patriotism,” so I don’t really care what he does. But since it hasn’t come up in any conversations or the dozens of stories I’ve read about him in the past week, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that he no longer does it and that he stands with his teammates.

Again, not that I really much care. If he had a four-RBI game and a five-RBI game for my team in a span of three days in the LCS, I wouldn’t care if he sung the Turkish national anthem during God Bless America….

Jimmy, nice quoting John Prine there. I wonder if you should give all the lyrics to that song? Naah, might rub a few folks here the wrong way. But I do love that entire song, especially the lyrics he tweaked when I saw him sing it in Houston this summer….

Glavine on short rest tomorrow. In seven postseason starts on short rest for the Braves, he was 2-5 with an ERA well above 6.00….

By Tom A. Hawk

October 16, 2006 12:47 AM | Link to this

Now that the Cards are crumbling, all Braves fans/Mets haters now must pin their hopes on their last hope, the Tigers. Better hope Detroit doesn’t cool off after their sweep of the A’s as they wait all week for the NL to settle the score.

I think the Tigers will win it, but I don’t think it will be an easy series. The Mets are better than most of you care to admit; after all, they easily survived an Oliver Perez start. Now Glavine can give them the lead in Game 5, while St. Louis must rely on the ever-erratic Jeff Weaver. Maybe Glavine can pitch well enough to impress Pujols this time.

Kenny Rogers certainly has eradicated the shame of being the only pitcher to end a postseason series with a bases-loaded walk, hasn’t he?

By The Grinch

October 16, 2006 01:09 AM | Link to this

Sorry, all; I was away for a bit. Sherry L., I am hardly one to back down from my own missteps. I view women like Henry V viewed France: “To those who say I hate France, I point out that I love France beyond measure, else I would not try so hard to possess every inch of her soil.” Or something like that. Y’all will be the death of me. I can’t leave well enough alone. Anyhoo, don’t ever take me seriously; I’m a writer. I may say all manner of strange things at any time. You’ll know if I’m serious (probably before I will). You may even find that you’re strangely attracted to me despite our initial misfire. :-)

Journalist Jimmy, how’d you know I hid my shampoo in my vegetable garden? Is this some of Norm Werm’s doing?

T’hawkin, what’s up, baby? This is not our post-season; it looks like the Mets are gonna have it handed to them just like the division. They didn’t win it; everyone else lost it. PLEASE don’t bring up Rice and the 49’ers; his career highlight reel is hours and hours of footage of Falcons DB’s biting the turf two yards behind him.

FLBgirl, what’s this about you knew I would like Tanith? Have you sent her to me yet? I did not see that package at my P.O….I will check first thing in the morning. Much obliged (I told you to be quiet about it, though)!

By CBGB

October 16, 2006 01:40 AM | Link to this

Turn out the lights, the party’s over.

By Head Coach

October 16, 2006 03:20 AM | Link to this

Time for a new blog , this one has gotton way off subject.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 07:50 AM | Link to this

[A Andruw Jones trade] may very well destroy the Braves-in run production, team psychology and fan psychology. Dude, how did I know you would come up with something about Triple Crown stats being overrated? If it is not significant, then how come it has been done twice in my lifetime? Man you are so far out in left field that Juan Pierre couldn’t hit the cutoff man from where you’re standing.

How can the triple crown stats be overrated? Well, batting average doesn’t take into account walks or total bases. Homeruns are great, but a player could make a huge number of outs between homeruns or he could play in a favorable hitter’s park. And RBI are largely dependent on where and how often a hitter is in the lineup; if a hitter is behind a two or three high on-base guys it will be much easier for him to drive in a lot of runs even if he’s not that great a hitter (see Tony Bautista in 2004).

And just because something is rare, doesn’t mean it’s significant. Even so, I will agree that if a hitter wins the triple crown it is impressive. It’s mostly impressive because it’s very difficult for a hitter who is not a great run creator to win the triple crown. But the triple crown stats by themselves don’t really tell us much about a hitter’s run creation. A better way to evaluate run creation is to take into account OBP, SLG, AVG, PA and ballpark.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 08:59 AM | Link to this

[A Andruw Jones trade] may very well destroy the Braves-in run production, team psychology and fan psychology. Dude, how did I know you would come up with something about Triple Crown stats being overrated? If it is not significant, then how come it has been done twice in my lifetime? Man you are so far out in left field that Juan Pierre couldn’t hit the cutoff man from where you’re standing.

As far as an Andruw Jones trade destroying the Braves, if we get a couple of players about as valuable as Matt Diaz or Chuck James, that would make up for Andruw’s production.

By The Grinch

October 16, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

Shaun, you had someone defending you yeaterday; you’re really not helping your case any. Good lord, man. Do you try to argue your way out of a ticket by telling the cop the average person drives 63.1 mph in a 55? Or that according to (choose an obscure source), seat belts actually don’t save lives when worn by left-handed Dutch-Asians on Thursday afternoons? No offense intended, honestly; you just trip me out sometimes.

By NLCHAMPS

October 16, 2006 09:47 AM | Link to this

Mets showed there’s still thunder in that lineup. After last nights offensive output DOB will have to re-work his numbers. Oh yeah, KC if you out there, remember what we talked about last week regarding Oliver Perez. I told you don’t overlook a young lefty who throws in the mid 90’s. Tonites game will be rained out giving Glavine another days rest which means The Mets will head back to NY with a 3-2 lead in the series. One last comment, the NY Giants once again proved that Vick is NOT and elite quaterback.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

The Grinch,

I know you’re kidding, but the things you are talking about are exactly the kindof things I’m trying to speak out against. People who quote triple crown stats or many traditional stats are closer to the seat-belts-actually-don’t-save-lives-when-worn-by-left-handed-Dutch-Asians-on-Thursday-afternoons crowd. I actually try to bring up more meaningful stats to creating runs or preventing runs, stats like on-base and slugging percentage.

The thing that the “sabermetric” world realizes, but most people think they do not, is that many stats are useless. Most people think of the sabermetric crowd as bringing up meaningless stats that don’t really tell you anything. In truth, sabermetricians bring up, discover or invent the most meaningful stats instead of just assuming the stats baseball fans have traditionally used are meaningful to actually creating/preventing runs and winning/losing baseball games. And they try to filter out meaningless stats like player x bats .276 during day games vs. LHP.

There are some statistical companies (the Elias Sports Bureau) that do quote meaningless stats because they think that’s what fans want, but intelligent and legit statisticians/sabermetricians despise meaningless stats.

It’s almost like astrology vs. astronomy. Some see sabermetricians like astrologers but they are more like astronomers.

The sabermetrician’s goal is not to add to the fodder, but to filter out the meaningful stats or come up with more meaningful stats if necessary.

By BB FAN

October 16, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

“As far as an Andruw Jones trade destroying the Braves, if we get a couple of players about as valuable as Matt Diaz or Chuck James, that would make up for Andruw’s production.” ????

Two players like Matt Diaz or Chuck James? I would not trade Andruw Jones for two Matt Diaz’s!! And that would NOT make up for Andruw’s production. Diaz has a career .348 OBP and has 9 HR and 44 RBIs in 416 career at bats and he is almost 29 years old. Andruw had 41 Homeruns and 129 RBIs last year!!! And he hit .280 with runners in scoring position! He hit .349 in close and late situations! That is clutch. And he improved his walk total this year. Andruw Jones is just 29 years old and is starting to blossom into a superstar. And you want to trade him for two Matt Diaz’s or Chuck James.

Have you seen Diaz play defense? Defense counts a lot in the real world. Matt Diaz is a great 4th outfielder (or platoon guy)and pinch hitter off the bench, but that’s it. Where do you get that Matt Diaz is even half as good as Andruw Jones? I hope that Baseball Prospectus bible that you are always quating isn’t telling you that! I would consider THREE Chuck James’ but not two Matt Diaz’s. Hell, not even 9 Matt Diaz’s!! You do not trade a future Hall of Famer for a 4th outfielder!!

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this

BB FAN,

My point is not that the Braves would or should trade AJ for a player like Matt Diaz or Chuck James. But two of those type players would equal roughly what Andruw Jones gave the Braves last season. Imagine how much more production AJ could bring in. He could probably bring in at least 1-1/2 to 2 times his own production in a trade, if the Braves are smart about it and if there is a trade out there to be made.

(Diaz was the Braves’ 6th most productive hitter—that’s pretty good for the money.)

By KC

October 16, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

Sherry,

I did as you suggested and compared the numbers of Smoltz and Glavine. Since joining the Mets, Glavine has gone 48-48 with a 3.97 ERA. Smoltz just returned to the rotation last season so I can’t compare all four years, but in the 2 seasons since his return to starting, Smoltz has gone 30-16 with a 3.27 ERA. That’s substantially better than anything Glavine has produced since leaving Atlanta.

Let’s look at post-season numbers. Since the 2000 season, Glavine has gone 4-4 with a 4.60 ERA in October. Over that same period, Smoltz went 3-0 with a 2.10 ERA in post-season play. Now I realize that most of that was with Smoltz as a closer, so it’s apples and oranges, but the fact is that John Smoltz is the most prolific post-season pitcher in the history of the game. He is tops in baseball history in post-season wins with 15, and has a career October ERA of 2.65. And it’s definitely worth noting that the Braves are paying Smoltz less than the Mets are paying Glavine.

As to the Atlanta’s efforts to re-sign Glavine… The winter in which the Braves tried to negotiate a new contract with Glavine happened to be right after Glavine single-handedly knocked the Braves out of the NLDS, giving up 17 earned runs in 7-2/3 innings in two starts against the Giants. Still, the Braves did make a fair offer to Glavine. The money offered by the Mets and Braves only differed by about 10% (per season). And at the time, the Braves had already begun stepping down their payroll. The Mets, desperate for pitching and to sign a quality starter away from the “team to beat” in the NL east, were willing to outbid the Braves… both in annual salary, and in the number of years they were willing to offer an aging pitcher. Had the Braves “antied-up” a bit more, the Mets simply would have countered with an even better offer to Glavine.

The fact of the matter is that with the diminished payroll that was beginning to be implemented at that time… the Braves couldn’t afford to win a bidding war with the Mets. The offer made by Atlanta to Glavine was a fair one, and if remaining a Brave was important enough to Glavine for him to settle for 10-11 million a season, he’s still be here.

By KC

October 16, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

NLCHAMPS

“Oh yeah, KC if you out there, remember what we talked about last week regarding Oliver Perez. I told you don’t overlook a young lefty who throws in the mid 90’s.”

Oliver Perez went 5-2/3 innings, allowing 9 hits, a walk, and 5 earned runs. (That’s an ERA of 7.94)

Are you seriously talking smack to me about Perez’s performance????

By journalist jimmy smith

October 16, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

small player with tremendous upside potential available. this player hits for average and with surprising power. good glove and throwing arm/flipper. can get to first base in a flash but leaves a dusty trail along the basepath. good leadoff candidate and can turn a double play. also can do small engine repair. if interested contact agent/journalist jimmy smith. more later.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

And just because something is rare, doesn’t mean it’s significant.

Very much like statiticians.

By BB FAN

October 16, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

Well my point is that two of those type of players (James and Diaz) would NOT equal what Andruw Jones brought to the Braves. Andruw saves twice as many runs with his glove as Diaz produces with his bat. And Diaz costs the Braves runs with his glove.

Defense counts and Andruw is the best defensive centerfielder in the game since Willie Mays! And he is one of the top offensive performers in the game today. The guy is clutch in close and late situations and is just starting to reach his prime.

And as good a 4th outfielder Diaz is, he should NEVER be part of a deal for Andruw Jones (a Fyture Hall of Famer). If JS and the Braves are dumb enough to trade Andruw Jones, they better be getting 3 top YOUNG talents…NOT 29 year old “journeyman” outfielders!

By Lew

October 16, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this

Shaun-I certainly don’t mean to disparage you as a good or intelligent person. However, you must realize that MLB is now and always has been a stats driven sport. Maybe moreso than any other professional sport. These stats are part and parcel of a very rich and illustrative history. Sabremetrics is basically a philosophy (maybe) somewhat useful in putting a team together-not really useful for the appreciation of the game.Winning the Triple Crown has only been accomplished 14 times since 1900. It hasn’t been accomplished 3 times since 1947-60 years. Three times in my lifetime and it has not been accomplished at all in the past 40 years. When something occurs so infrequently and is a positive accomplishment in particular, it is , by definition, significant. It does not automatically lead to a WS appearance (3of9 times since 1900), therefore I am sure this leads to your belittling of the Triple Crown. I still contend that it is a good thing to lead the league in HR, RBI and BA. To do all 3 during one season is certainly significant and is an extremely rare happening. I have never seen a player honored for leading the league in OBP, OPS and walks, although I wouldn’t be surprised if the Triple Crown winners did just that in their winning seasons.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

HA! Did I read NLCHAMPS correctly? Look, the Mets won, but it wasn’t like Perez’s performance was so astounding, you’d make him the #1 starter for the WS. Count your blessing, say a prayer and watch tonight. Glavine on short rest against Weaver, the homerun maker. This should be just as entertaining.

By NLCHAMPS

October 16, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

I don’t do smack. I was just pointing out that it was too early to give up on the young fellow. He was tiring and gave up those two meaningless solo shots. At that poing the Mets were up 11-3 and I’m sure he was told to just throw strikes. St Louis is a savvy team and Im sure they were sitting on those pitches. Again, no smack here.

By Lew

October 16, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

Excuse me it HAS been accomplished 3 times since 1947.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

As far as an Andruw Jones trade destroying the Braves, if we get a couple of players about as valuable as Matt Diaz or Chuck James, that would make up for Andruw’s production

I disagree. If we were to replace AJ with a fly ball pitcher and a defender on the level of Diaz, we’d be in big trouble. AJ’s bat isn’t the only thing that would be missing. Diaz’s performance isn’t guaranteed to be repeated. And certainly wasn’t enough to merit giving him the clean up spot. He was good, don’t get me wrong, but not good enough to replace AJ.

By Lew

October 16, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

Shaun-If you truly believe that Andruw could be replaced by Matt Diaz and Chuck James, then you have indeed, become delusional. There is absolutely nothing you can think, do or say that could possibly support this point of view. This statement is certainly deserving of a Froggy Nomination. Dude-It is so completely out in left field, Juan Pierre can’t even SEE the cutoff man from there.

By NLCHAMPS

October 16, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

Look….The Mets formula for winning is simple. The starter needs to keep them in the game for 5 innings. The offense has to do what it’s been doing all seaon….score runs. The bullpen then comes in a closes the deal. Perez did his part. I’m not anointing him the next Cy Young. All I’m saying is kid did better than expected and the Mets got a much needed win….That’s it.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

Lew,

Well, yes, it is helpful to a players team to win the triple crown, but it’s very dependent on a player’s teammates. I’m not trying to deminish winning the triple crown. But there are more meaningful things to winning than winning the triple crown.

It would be difficult for someone other than the most productive player in the league to win the triple crown but it’s possible.

The point is maybe we should have a new triple crown that is much more meaningful to creating runs and therefore creating wins—leading the league in average, on-base percentage and slugging percentage.

You make the argument that baseball’s has always been a statistical game but want to ignore the most meaningful stats in terms of run production in favor of traditional stats that tell you little or nothing about run production (maybe not you specifically but many baseball fans and even many insiders).

Sabermetrics may be a philosophy, but one of its goals is to arrive at more objective, more meaningful stats and filtering out the subjective, meaningless ones.

I appreciate a player who leads the league in AVG/OBP/SLG all in the same year more than a triple crown winner, although both are impressive.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

He could probably bring in at least 1-1/2 to 2 times his own production in a trade

How exactly? What team looks at their players and says, hmmm these two guys are just as good as AJ. Each one on his own is equal in production to AJ. Let’s trade 2 AJ’s for 1 AJ. I know you really want to pillage some other teams system, but it is no given that any other team is going to give up that much for a one year rental. It is no given that any other team is going to give up that much. Period. You say yourself that young pitching is very unpredictable and therefore a great trading chip. You know pitchers don’t normally pan out. Yet you advocate trading a future HOF highly productive exceptionally skilled CF for a pitcher who more than likely won’t pan out and a 4th outfielder.

Stats alone aren’t going to get good players. How? Well, stats alone would have said, trade the winningest pitcher in the majors for Chuck Thomas and Juan Cruz. Trade Andre Either for Meltdown Bradely. Scouting and personal interviews would have told you not to make either one of those deals. But sabremetrics endorsed them.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Replacing AJones

Okay, maybe we would have to get three Diaz, James types.

By Lew

October 16, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

Shaun-They have come up with The Rolaids Relief Man Award and The Viagra Comeback Player Of The Year Award. The day they come up with The Sudafed On Base Percantage and On Base Plus Slugging Percentage Award is the day I start watching competitive Curling and give up on baseball completely.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Payne: The definition of the triple crown is not going to be changed so that Frank Robinson being traded makes more sense. That’s where all this stemed from. Robinson was traded, he then won the triple crown. He was great and didn’t need to be traded. Very much like AJ.

You’re right though, it is extremely difficult for the triple crown winner to not be the most productive guy in the league. It’s pratically impossible.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

Andruw Jones was worth 48.7 runs more than a fringe level player offensively (VORP). Matt Diaz was worth about 15.8 runs more. Chuck James was worth about 25.4 runs. Two Chuck James’s was worth more than AJ’s offensive production. Two Matt Diaz’s would have been worth more if he would have received the playing time he deserved.

Here are the Braves’ VORP numbers and an explaination of VORP:

http://baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?stats&team=ATL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VORP

By David O'Brien

October 16, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

Bravo, Lew, for this comment:

“These stats are part and parcel of a very rich and illustrative history. Sabremetrics is basically a philosophy (maybe) somewhat useful in putting a team together-not really useful for the appreciation of the game.Winning the Triple Crown has only been accomplished 14 times since 1900. It hasn’t been accomplished 3 times since 1947-60 years. Three times in my lifetime and it has not been accomplished at all in the past 40 years. When something occurs so infrequently and is a positive accomplishment in particular, it is , by definition, significant.”

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

The definition of the triple crown doesn’t need to be changed for Frank Robinson’s sake. It needs to be changed to something that better measures a players ability to create runs.

By Lew

October 16, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

TenPaul-As always, the voice of reason. Thanks. Time to go eat before I start advocating delusional trades. Shaun-Have you checked your blood sugar lately? I think it might be low.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

Okay, maybe we would have to get three Diaz, James types.

Payne: That still isn’t going to work. AJ plays nearly every day. You can’t play 3 Diaz’s every day to make up for him. There isn’t enough room on the field for that. I’d love it if we could. I’d feel much more comfortable with trading AJ if we could replace him in CF with three guys. We’d have 5 guys in the outfield. We should be able to catch everything at that point.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Who said anything about stats alone getting you good players? You also have to look at your needs and other things.

I think the Tim Hudson trade has worked out okay for Oakland considering they couldn’t pay him, and chances are the Bradley trade would have been fine had Bradley been healthy; that’s something you can’t predict.

By Carolina Lady

October 16, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

TNPaul, Bravo! your comment

agent/journalist jimmy smith, you might want to mention that your client is adorable, absolutely lovable, and eats an astounding quantity of fish! :-))

By BB FAN

October 16, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

“Andruw Jones was worth 48.7 runs more than a fringe level player offensively (VORP). Matt Diaz was worth about 15.8 runs more. Chuck James was worth about 25.4 runs. Two Chuck James’s was worth more than AJ’s offensive production. Two Matt Diaz’s would have been worth more if he would have received the playing time he deserved.”

There you go again, talking like offense is the only thing that matters. It’s not!! Diaz is a defensive liability! And that is why he is not an everyday player. And just because he has a good 2 months does not make him Andruw Jones…or even half of Andruw Jones. Diaz is a good 4th outfielder. nothing more. I can’t believe you are even trying to justify it. I’m glad you are not the Gm of the Braves. You would have them losing 120 games a year.

Losing Andruw Jones defense alone would cripple the Braves chances of returning to a WS champion.

You spend too much time in your little “sabermetric” world, pal. In the real world, no GM would trade Andruw Jones for Chuck James and Matt Diaz. Or two Matt Diaz’s. Not even Nine of him!! If a GM did make that trade, he would be fired within a day.

Come back to reality, buddy!

By BB FAN

October 16, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Don’t get me wrong, I think what Matt Diaz did this year was great. A team needs guys like him. But you can not replace an Andruw Jones with guys like Diaz, no matter how many. That is just ludicrous!

By Carolina Lady

October 16, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

Just my opinion:
sabermetrics = oatmeal without salt
:-(

By Lew

October 16, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this

Journalist Jimmy-Perhaps Baby Seal would do well in San Francisco. They are an old team and could use the youth. SF is also a great location for sea food and used to have a team known as The Seals. Boston would be good, as Baby Seal could dine at Legal Seafood, or possibly the DRays, where he could eat at either of the Leverock’s in St.Pete. Of course, there’s always the Marlins, but they could wind up playing in the desert (as opposed to the dessert) and would probably not find that as rewarding an experience.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Payne: I love your enthusiasm. But sabremetrics has clowded your mind. Not everything in baseball is about run creation. The triple crown for instance, isn’t an award to a guy who created the most runs. That’s not the point of that award. The single season home run record isn’t herald because it creates runs. The batting title isn’t praised for run creation. The hitting streak or Iron Man streak are not about run creation. Some things in baseball are praised for what they are. Somethings in life are exactly as they appear.

By Lew

October 16, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

Ma’am-That last comment was, indeed, priceless.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

I think the Tim Hudson trade has worked out okay for Oakland considering they couldn’t pay him, and chances are the Bradley trade would have been fine had Bradley been healthy; that’s something you can’t predict

Yes Payne. You are probably right. The A’s really benefitted considering they couldn’t afford a highly valuable player. Much like the Marlins did when they traded Beckett for Anibal Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez.
I don’t have the VORP on Chuck Thomas or Juan Cruz in front of me. But I can guarantee you that the half a season they were on the A’s team didn’t help the team. They were terrible as A’s. Horrid beyond belief. Now they aren’t even on the team. They lasted half a season. That was a good trade.
With Meltdown, an injury isn’t something that’s really that difficult to predict. It’s about a 50/50 shot. Probably more like 60/40 (hurt/healthy). At any rate, Andre Either would have been more valuable. They’d at least have him for more than one season as Meltdown is a FA this winter.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Shouldn’t the players who contribute the most wins get the most praise? How does a player contribute to wins other than creating/preventing runs? Shouldn’t run creation/prevention be the most important aspect of player performance?

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

BB FAN,

I agree that you can’t put Diaz in CF, but in terms of value, two or three Matt Diaz types would be equal to or better than AJones. Of course it would be silly to trade Jones for two or three Matt Diaz types, but my point was not that you trade AJ for two or three Diaz types. My point was that two or three Matt Diaz’s and Chuck James’s would have equaled or bettered AJ’s production in 2006.

Of course, in order to trade Jones, the Braves have to get two or three of the top 50 or so players under 25 or so. I don’t think Schuerholz would accept anything less.

By Head Coach

October 16, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Hey Payne ! you think we should maybe trade Hudson back to the A’s for Juan Cruz , Charles Thomas and Dan Meyer ? LOL !

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

You don’t just trade players, you trade contracts in the real world. They traded Hudson to where he wanted to go and took a gamble because they could afford to. They also got Dan Meyer in the deal and he’s still young enough to make something of himself; he was the guy they really wanted.

And Bradley played in at least 96 games four of the last five seasons. There was absolutely nothing that would indicate he would be injured.

Still, Billy Beane’s not perfect. Even if we accept that he should have done better with those two trades, he’s made plenty of excellent trades over his career.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

Which makes more sense?

1. The Braves should not trade Andruw Jones at all.

or

1. If the Braves are smart about it and trade Andruw Jones for the right players, trading him is likely to help the Braves.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

Head Coach,

I wouldn’t mind the Braves getting Dan Meyer back and using the extra Hudson money to fill in other holes. Problem is the A’s will never take Hudson’s contract.

By Head Coach

October 16, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Dan Meyer is a whopping 5-11 / 5.24 ERA playing for the A’s Sacramento AAA club the past two seasons since he was traded by the Braves. He was a 1st round(34th)pick in 2002 and so far in five minor league seasons he has been a bust. I do believe Billy Beane got suckered by Mr. Schuerholz.

By Head Coach

October 16, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

Payne , your a legend in your own mind. I am just about ready to fall out in the floor in a hysterical fit of laughter , dude your killing me , absolutely killing me , I’m LMFAO !!!

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Payne: Your opptions are fascinating. Which one of these do you think is better?

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

Shouldn’t the players who contribute the most wins get the most praise? How does a player contribute to wins other than creating/preventing runs? Shouldn’t run creation/prevention be the most important aspect of player performance?

Funny Payne. But not necessarily. There is more to life than just this. Cal Ripken did something incredible. I praise him for it. Do I praise him more than Hank Aaron? Not when it comes to total hits, HR, doubles, or RBIs. But when it comes to Ripkins field, I give him the props he deserves. Playing for 20 straight years without missing a game. If he was injured, we didn’t need to know about it. He was on the field producing. If he sucked, he wouldn’t have played every day. If a player has a 162 game hitting streak. I’ll praise him. If a guy hits a walk off homerun, I’ll praise him too. If a GM trades the winningest active pitcher for two crappers and a perpetual minor leaguer, I’ll scorn him.

By ncscoots

October 16, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

Head Coach, if you’re rollin’ because of some of Payne’s stuff, you should see me when I read yours. Talk about pot and kettle, bro…

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

Shouldn’t the players who contribute the most wins get the most praise? How does a player contribute to wins other than creating/preventing runs? Shouldn’t run creation/prevention be the most important aspect of player performance?

Forgot to mention… They already have the MVP award. The criteria for this award may be defined differently by each voter, but your description is that of the most valuable player. Though, I think re-wording your phrase would help…Shouldn’t the player [from each league] who contribute[s] the most [to the teams] wins get the most praise?

Payne, this is what I was trying to say, not every single award is going to be for the same thing. The MVP is more towards what you are thinking. The triple crown is for exactly what it is for. The home run title, batting title and RBI title. Somethings are exactly as they appear. A triple crown winner had an exceptionally good year. Maybe he didn’t win the MVP, but it doesn’t make his accomplishments any less significant.

By ncscoots

October 16, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

TPaul is on the mark, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Appreciation of feats not directly contributing to run creation (as defined by Shaun) aren’t unworthy of our admiration and awe. Their praiseworthiness is not due to their place in the halls of OBP, or VORP, or even winning games, but because the feats simply…are.

I’d wager that Payne has an appreciation for that, too, though it may be unspoken on the blog. Sometimes I think he just enjoys playing the contrarian to old-school baseball thought, and the rest of us just come off the launch pad at the notion that our cherished perceptions might be challenged, or worse. It’s actually kinda humorous, most of the time, so I hope he keeps throwing that stuff out there.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

If the Braves are smart and trade AJ for the right young players it is very likely to help them. Almost every top hitting prospects makes something of himself. It’s not the same for pitchers, but there is value in young pitching.

I don’t think anyone should be off-limits for a trade, including Andruw Jones. The Beckett deal that you bring up is a good example why. Imagine if Florida said we aren’t going to trade a 25-year-old hard-throwing pitcher with Cy Young potential.

You are just proving my point by bringing up Josh Beckett—if the Braves can get two players as valuable as Ramirez and Sanchez, look what it could do.

As far as the Hudson trade, I have no idea if the A’s could have received more, but it hasn’t really hurt them. And they weren’t going to resign him after ‘05 if they had kept him. Why not take a chance on Meyer, Thomas and Cruz? And you can quote Meyer stats all day, but he’s still young enough to become at the very least a solid middle reliever.

By Head Coach

October 16, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

Scoots , Payne is the king of the idiocracy. Your the king of potshots. The two of you are a regular Laurel & Hardy. Maybe you guys can get together and start your own comedy act. I would pay to see it , lol.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Yes, Cal Ripken gets a lot of deserved praise for staying in the lineup and staying productive and should. But does he get as much praise as Babe Ruth, who was the most valuable player in terms of contributing to wins? Probably not—at least not to intelligent baseball fans or historians. I mean, not to knock Ripken at all because I would love to have someone anywhere close to as valuable as Ripken. But Babe Ruth helped his teams win more than any other player and gets more praise.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

The Braves hold an option on Danys Baez they have to pick up before Nov. 15 or he can become a free agent.
New York Post

A more realistic target, one GM says, is Atlanta’s Danys Baez, who will be a free agent
New York Daily News

DOB: Which of these is correct? Or is one just assuming the option will not be picked up? I’m currious to see. If Baez is signed by another team, wouldn’t that grant the Braves a draft pick?

By BB FAN

October 16, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

How the hell can you say that two Matt Diaz’s and a Chuck James would equal Andruw Jones production? You can’t play two Diaz’s in one outfield position.

Like I said, you spend too much time in your little “sabermetric” world. It’s more than just offensive numbers. Your stats, like VORP, don’t mean much…not how you are using them. You simply can’t say 2 of Diaz equal one of Jones. You have to take the player’s production, the 2nd Diaz would replace in the field, into consideration too. And that is not even taking into consideration that Andruw is a 9 time gold glove centerfielder. He is known as the best desfensive centerfielder since Mays. Some have even said he is better defensively than Mays.

No matter how you try to justify it, you will not convince any sain, knowledgeable baseball fan. And I actually find it comical that you are even trying to justify it.

Quite frankly, after hearing you try to justify your belief, I have lost respect for your baseball opinion. I just do not think you have the baseball knowledge you claim to. I think it’s all in your own little world…maybe the “sabermetric” world.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

TPaul is on the mark, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Appreciation of feats not directly contributing to run creation (as defined by Shaun) aren’t unworthy of our admiration and awe. Their praiseworthiness is not due to their place in the halls of OBP, or VORP, or even winning games, but because the feats simply…are.

I’d wager that Payne has an appreciation for that, too, though it may be unspoken on the blog. Sometimes I think he just enjoys playing the contrarian to old-school baseball thought, and the rest of us just come off the launch pad at the notion that our cherished perceptions might be challenged, or worse. It’s actually kinda humorous, most of the time, so I hope he keeps throwing that stuff out there.

I do have an appreciation for triple crown winners and hitting streaks and things like that. But I have more appreciation for someone who contributed 13-14 wins a season for his teams.

To me, it’s all about contributing wins and that’s what players deserve the most praise for. Winning the triple crown almost certainly means you contributed a lot of wins to your team, but other things are more telling (in terms of win creation) than those triple crown stats.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

I have no idea if the A’s could have received more

Payne: the Beckett trade shows they could have recieved more for Hudson. That’s the point. The A’s got Kolbed in that trade.

Trading AJ? I don’t think it’s necessary. We have a nice farm system in place. We have the players to fill the positions that are up in the air. And our payroll is much, much higher than the Marlins or A’s. It’s actually as high as the Marlins and A’s put together. I don’t see the need to trade him. I think, whatever this team does need, can be obtained without trading AJ. I also think AJ can be resigned to fit into the team budget without harming long term plans.
So should the Braves trade AJ? I say no. If some foolish team wishes to offer an outstanding fabulous out of this world deal, then take it. But that deal is going to have to be stupendous. And so far, all the rumors out there don’t sound all that amazing to me. Coco Crisp an injured pitcher and a player to be named, to me is the same as the terrible, worthless, horribly made Hudson deal (from the A’s perspective).

As to the reason for my original post… the way you worded your choices though was funny. Should the Braves not do anything at all? Or should the be super smart and intellegent? It’s a loaded question, very much like mine was.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

He is known as the best desfensive centerfielder since Mays. Some have even said he is better defensively than Mays

I was talking to my father in law about this. His recollection is that Mays was like a Jim Edmonds of his day. That AJ should be compared more to DiMaggio. Apparently Mays made the plays look outstanding, just like Edmonds. But DiMaggio made every play look riculously easy, like Andruw. I found that to be an interesting take on the matter. But nonetheless, it wasn’t said in a way that would detract from any of the players, just a note on the defensive stylings of each.

Having never seen Mays or DiMaggio play… I still think AJ is the best every. Bam! =)

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

But does he get as much praise as Babe Ruth

Payne get over the stats. You don’t have to quatify the level of praise bestowed upon players. Once they have retired and entered the hall of fame, they have obtained the ultimate praise. After that, it’s all bias, opinion, intangibles heresay, perspectives, era preference and the sorts.

If you want an award that acknowledges the runs created or wins attributed to or the Sabremetric stat of the month, then create one. But mind you, you should, at most, only have one per league, otherwise it’s just cheap. In the mean time, the rest of the baseball world is going to acknowledge the individual feats of the players with other awards that are meant to bestow praise on each recipiant for the work the award acknowledges.

By Dave

October 16, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

Comments on NLCS and The Braves for 2007:

Tom Glavine is THE MAN for the Met tonight. If he pitches them to a win, they stand a good chance to win the NLCS and advance to the World Series against the Tigers.

If they lose, I do not think they will two straight games against Carpenter and Suppan.

Regardless of who wins, neither team will win more than two games against the Tigers and the stable of well-rested 100-MPH pitchers.

As for the Braves, I trust John Schurholz to make the right decisions regarding the Braves lineup. If that means trading Andruw, so be it.

I would rather they sign him to a five year, $75M contract, but that may not be possible.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

BB FAN,

My point is not that you can replace AJones with two Diaz’s. My point is that getting a couple of players as valuable as Diaz in terms of run production would likely be as good as having AJones. Obviously it depends on defensive ability and playing time and other things, and I wouldn’t want the Braves to trade AJ for someone as old as Diaz. I’m just trying to point out how two or three pretty good players are just as good or better than one great player, especially if they are younger and cheaper.

And I’m not trying to justify anything. I just tried to find out what it would take for me to give up AJ if I were running the show.

I think my argument has been misconstrude as I would trade AJones for two players exactly like Matt Diaz. That is probably my fault for not making myself clear. My argument was that two or three pretty good players that aren’t that overly impressive could match the production of Andruw Jones; and if the Braves have a trade for two or three young, cheap, pretty good players with star potential they should pull the trigger.

I’m not trying to make the argument that I would trade two Diaz’s for AJ, just that it’s very plausable that trading AJ wouldn’t be as bad as people think and may even be good for the Braves.

One thing I, and other people who love the “sabermetric” approach, try to avoid doing is using stats to justify beliefs. I use stats to help me answer my own and other’s questions about player performance, not to back up whatever opinions I have.

Quite frankly, it’s insulting to me when people accuse me of using stats to back up my opinions; or when people make the same accusations against more intelligent baseball analysts. I try to go out of my way to stay open-minded and to use stats to answer questions rather than to try to attract followers or convert people to my views or some other BS.

By ncscoots

October 16, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this

Head, I seldom take “potshots”, but I will occasionally redress those that I think are in need of it. I don’t believe I actually insulted your intelligence (as you did Payne), or engaged in any verbal baiting (as you have on numerous occasions). Just calling a spade a spade, as I see it.

By Robert

October 16, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

The “win” is a traditional but very poor measure of pitching

Consider

A starter can go 5 horrible innings and get a win if his team scores enough runs and if the official scorer doesnt feel any reliever deserved the chit a little more

while

a starter can likewise pitch shutout ball from here until the cows come home and not get a win if his team scores no runs

Pitchers dont win games - they can maximize or minimize their teams’ OPPORTUNITY to win games

That said, any guy who gets near 300 wins haslikely been pitching consistantly high quality innings for a long time

Glavine - sure fire HOFer - I never liked his union stance, but cant say anything bad about his performances and grit

I think he has something left in the tank, but I think that the next year or two wont be pretty for the Braves,and that therefore this team’s future is NOT in forty something year old players - the nostalgic value of seeing him get number 300 in a Braves uniform aside

Would Glavine WANT to come back here?

By the way, that was a BAD loss for the Cards the other night. Oliver Perez is Chris Reitsma’s main competition in the battle to see who gets to pitch the Home Run Derby at next year’s midsummer classic. Pitching him in a playoff game is akin to surrender - and getting a win out of a game where he takes a step out of the dugout is like hitting the Powerball

Of course, LaRussa is another manager who has a genius reputation for no apparent reason

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Well, contributing to wins is what matters most to me. Sure, it’s hard to distinguish between Honus Wagner and Ted Williams in terms of contributing to winning, but that’s how I think players should be judged. Isn’t professional sports about winning? In my opinion, contributing wins is what matters most. Maybe some care more about other things when evaluating players.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

And you can quote Meyer stats all day, but he’s still young enough to become at the very least a solid middle reliever

So now trading Hudson for a solid middle reliever was a good trade? Don’t kid yourself Payne. It was a bad deal. You can admit it and it wouldn’t detract anything from the numbers. It just means you have to suplement numbers with scouting. Reports don’t show you everything a tour of the factory does.

If AJ is equivalent to Hudson and a trade is to be modeled after that; then if AJ is traded for a middle reliever, a middle reliever that isn’t even on the team until 4 years after the trade, there will be riots and flaming garbage all over Braves nation.

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

It’s still early to tell whether the Hudson trade was a bad one. The A’s felt they had to dump his contract and they took a chance getting the players they got. Maybe it will turn out bad for the A’s, maybe not. So far it hasn’t looked all that bad—maybe not great, but not bad. And actually the numbers should have told the Braves that Hudson isn’t the same pitcher he was in 2002 or 2003.

And the Braves aren’t going to give up AJones for the type of players the A’s got for Hudson. AJones is much more valuable and could bring in more…don’t you worry about that.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

In my opinion, contributing wins is what matters most

That’s the point of all trades I’d imagine Payne. The difference is, how some define a win contribution. Sabremetrics has its formula. Is that the end all be all formula? Could there be a different way to find this out? A different means to measure a player and construct a team? I’m sure there could be. I’m sure each team has it’s own way of measuring quality and contribution. But that isn’t the point of any of the awards that are out there. All those awards are for exactly what they are for.

The point of all of this is rooted in your attempt to say Frank Robinson dropped off after he was traded. He won a triple crown after his trade. That isn’t exactly dropping off. Your defense against this was two fold, The Triple Crown is meaningless and Robison sunk to the levels of being “just great”. As if that was a bad thing and justified trading him. It doesn’t. He was still a good player. Check that, he was still a great player. Maybe other reason factored into that trade, but to say the trade is justified because he “was only great” there after and that winning the triple crown is insignificant is… well, ridiculous.

By The Grinch

October 16, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

Robert, good point about wins.

Shaun, I generally don’t agree with you, but I see where you’re coming from and I respect your determination.

NLCHAMPS, Vick doesn’t stand there and let all four defensive lineman beat the snap to his quarterback (like the offensive line), or consitantly drop passes that hit him in the hands or chest (like his recievers). It’s a team sport.

By d

October 16, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

yes glavine needs to retire as a brave

By Shaun

October 16, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

The point of all of this is rooted in your attempt to say Frank Robinson dropped off after he was traded. He won a triple crown after his trade. That isn’t exactly dropping off.

Well, Robinson did drop off in the numbers that matter most to run production.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 16, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Aside from a great “oatmeal without salt” line from Carolina Lady, this debate has produced nothing. Let’s agree to disagree, people. Learn like I have that no argument exists from those of us who enjoy the game that can coax Shaun from his lair of esoteric numbers and theories into our hot-dog-at-the-ballpark world of simple baseball pleasures. Conversely, Shaun, you’re not winning over anyone into your cult sabremetric fun warp. We’re not gonna drink the Kool-Aid, Reverend Jim! We’ll just revel in our ignorance at the ballgame enjoying the play of Andruw Jones while you and the rest of the superintelligent race of pasty-faced dorks pore over your VORPs and worship the statistical potential of Matt Diaz.

Next subject, please.

By BB FAN

October 16, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

“Well, Robinson did drop off in the numbers that matter most to run production.’

That statement sealed the deal pal. You know absolutely nothing about baseball. No offense. And I’m not trying to be an jerk. That statement is ignorant and ridiculous.

Frank Robinson had the best season of his career after he was traded to Baltimore and won the damn Triple Crown. He also won 2 WS rings with Baltimore and went to the WS 2 other years. He batted ~ .300 with a OBP of ~ .400 while in Baltimore for 6 years. His slugging percentage in the six years with Baltimore was ~ .543 which is higher than his career slugging percentage of .537. There was no dropoff there. Numbers don’t lie.

I can’t wait to hear your stupid justification for this one.

By Lew

October 16, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

Ten Paul-I think DOB answered the question a while back. Due to some quirk in his last contract, Baez is a free agent despite his length of service. He won’t be coming back here, anyway. The whole trade Andruw situation is likely a moot point, too. JS is not going to trade him and has pretty well said as much. Despite Shaun’s assertions to the contrary, his trade would be an explosive event, which is just what JS has said he WILL NOT cause.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

Payne: What kind of drop off are you looking at there? Less than 5%? What was obtained in return? Doubt it was MVP level production, even by the inverse sum of an obscure questionable stat. And it still doesn’t justify any of the comments made so far, or the trade itself. This goes back to your Trade AJ for 3 Diaz type players. It doesn’t work no matter how you try to add up the VORP. By trading one guy in a productive offense, you have only opened a spot for one guy to play. So you lose 2/3s of the production simply by trading for three lesser players. That doesn’t even include deffense. In return maybe you received a Chuck James. Now you have a fly ball pitcher pitching to a defensive liability who simultaneously weakens your offense by subtract 2/3s of the production from the clean up spot. Now, all of this doesn’t include the intangibles. The sort of things that stats can’t describe. Like presence. The presence of AJ in the outfield changes the approach of hitters at the plate. The presense of AJ in the batting order changes the approach of the opposing pitcher to the lineup.

It’s still early to tell whether the Hudson trade was a bad one
Payne, it’ll be three years next season. Two parts of the trade are gone and those two parts did more to hurt the team than help. The other part of the trade still isn’t in the majors and more than likely will not be in the majors next year. How long do you need?

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

Lew: Yeah, I remember that. His contract was signed with a free agent clause. However, the NY papers just this weekend posted scenarios that would still allow Baez to be a FA, but also allow the Braves to recieve a draft pick (recall Furcal, Farnsworthless, Sheffield, Wright, Drew, etc.) Though the Boss found a way around the Sheff business by putting off the official announcement until after a deadline. I’m curious as to the validity of those papers claims and what the deadline is for FA/draft pick compensation

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

BB FAN: Nice research. I didn’t have a chance to look it up, but I couldn’t fathom it being anything significant.

By BB FAN

October 16, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Robinson was traded for Milt Pappas, Dick Simpson and Jack Baldschun.

Simpson had a total of 138 at bats in 2 years for Cincinnati and was out of Baseball by 1969. He was traded for Alex Johnson, who had a couple of decent years with Cincinnati.

Baldschum pitched 70 innings for Cincinnati in 2 years and was out of baseball by 1970. Cincinnati released him after 2 years.

Pappas went 30-20 with Cincinnati in 2 + years. Pappas was a solid pitcher and won over 200 games in the majors. He was actually traded to Atlanta in 1968.

Anyway, not exactly getting quality for a Hall of Famer in Robinson.

And if the Braves trade Jones, that’s probably the kind of deal they will get. I think JS has enough sense to keep him though. I mean unless a team offered a deal that nobody would refuse.

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

BB FAN: Thanks!
Sheeesh! Had it not been for Pappas that deal would have been as bad as the Hudson trade. But, with Pappas and the contributions of the other two for at least a season and a half, it worked out way, way better than the Hudson trade. At least so far. Give it 10 more years and we’ll see if Meyer can ever get out of the minors and into that middle relief role. Reminds me of a commerical from a few years back that had a bunch of quotes that no one ever says when they’re a child: “When I grow up, I wanna claw my way up to middle management.”

By TennesseePaul

October 16, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

NEW BLOG POSTED

By Carolina Lady

October 16, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

There are those who love baseball for the game. There are those who love baseball for the numbers it provides. I think has been proved on this blog that never the twain shall meet. :-)

By Jaye'

October 16, 2006 07:22 PM | Link to this

In regards to “paying” for Tom Glavine as a means of remaining “loyal” to him, I often wonder if ‘I am talking to fans, or soon-to-graduate business majors.’ I love the $90 million or less payroll.

By Homer Simpson

October 18, 2006 03:45 AM | Link to this

Can we please stop this silly talk of “acquiring a lead-off hitter”. It’s like people don’t realize we were 2nd in the NL in runs scored. Do you people really think that our problem is that we don’t score enough runs. No, no, no. The problem is that we give up too many.

One guy above even said “we were 3rd in runs, but that’s not good enough, we need to be the best.” While I agree there’s always room for improvement, I think most of you are EXTREMELY OVERESTIMATING the importance of a prototypical lead-off hitter. If a lead-off man were so important, we wouldn’t have been 2nd in the league in runs, because we sure didn’t have one.

If this team goes out and makes a big move to acquire a lead-off man and fails to address the glaring deficiencies in pitching, I will be severely miffed. We should focus everything on acquiring a dominant pitching rotation. I want 3 dominant starters and 2 dominant relievers. After that, we can think about improving our line-up. Until then, no more silly talk of “lead-off hitters”.

Oh, and to address this silly talk of Glavine…it would be nice to see him back here, but I don’t view him as the dominant type of starter I want to acquire. Considering that we would have to pay him nearly as much as a Zito or Schmidt, I would rather spend my money on one of those younger options. I don’t really even think we have money to spend.

By Randy Howard

October 18, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this

I would take Greg Maddox back in a minute, had Tom Glavine gone anywhere other than the STINKIN’ mets I would welcome him with open arms. I would bring Kolb back before Glavine.

Go Cards

Randy Howard Gainesville Ga.

By JD

October 19, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Should have found some money to keep Glavine in the first place. It has been a huge mistake to let him go. Smoltz and Gman are two of the toughest. Chippie “I’m overpaid” Jones and the big money boys, renegotiate to get Glavine back.

By Tom

October 19, 2006 09:42 PM | Link to this

Get Greg back too. Both are better than anything we had this year other than John. Golf foursomes again. Mentors for the young pitching staff- wouldn’t even miss Leo. Can you imagine the emotion? Everyone in the country would be backing the Braves. The current Braves would probably do the right thing with their contracts to make it work. We would probably be almost guaranteed to be back in the playoffs. In the meantime the Baby Braves could continue their maturation. However it will take a little more money from the owners- not that much. Oh well, nice thought. Idiots.

By M. TYLER

October 21, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE GLAVINE BACK IN ATLANTA…MONEY ASISDE, TOM “TERRIFIC” CAN STILL PITCH…I HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN THE 1995 WORLD SERIES GAME 6, AND HOW HE PUT THE CAP ON THAT SLUGGING INDIAN OFFENSE AND ALUDE A GAME SEVEN…BRING HIM BACK…

By David

October 25, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

Glavine’s plan to get another ring outside of an Atlanta uniform backfired when the Cardinals eliminated the Mets in this year’s post-season. Glavine was starved for a ring, as any Atlanta Brave can attest after the Braves have come up empty on 14 of 15 post-season appearances—Glavine thought that if he left Atlanta, his chances would be better to get a ring than if he stayed with the Braves——WRONG DECISION. We could have used Tommy Glavine to help us get another ring but Tommy made the foolish decision of defecting to the Mets of all people and joined the evil empire to try and overthrow the Braves division championship run. Well, the plan seemed to work for a while, but then the Cardinals sent the Mets home fishing for the off-season and Tommy Glavine’s plan folded like a marked deck of cards. Yes, I would welcome back Tommy Glavine back with open arms, but only after giving that mutt the major league minimum salary and placing that old goat as the fifth starter in our 5-man rotation. That’s all the appreciation I would show that greedy slime for defecting to the Mets. In fact if Tommy’s stuff is so old that he is not good enough to make the major league club, I would take Tommy back and make him our pitching coach to replace Leo Mezzone. I would even give Tommy Glavine the option to be a player/coach pitching coach. Tommy may be the first guy to hold that title, but that is really the only place that I think I would use Tom Glavine. Otherwise, I would give him a swift kick in the rear end and tell him to never show his face in Atlanta ever again, that is provided that we are unable to find a place for him.