Braves

By flbravesgirl

October 4, 2006 10:52 PM | Link to this

I just read that Pete and Chip are already under contract for next year and that Skip and Joe were expected to sign soon. Wish they could do the “Sportsouth” games.

By JJMB

October 4, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

Yes! At last Sutton is gone.

By TennesseePaul

October 4, 2006 11:01 PM | Link to this

Love the post DOB. Now, where is Payne to tell us how little relevance the pressure stats are? J/K Payne.

McCann: WAY TO GO!!

By kevin

October 4, 2006 11:06 PM | Link to this

Hey folks, remember when there were 100+ games on TBS every summer? …sigh…good times…good times…

on a sidenote, I’m really gonna miss Don Sutton on TBS—he was a good analyst.

By TheTEFLONSouthernJackAss

October 4, 2006 11:07 PM | Link to this

Censorship by AJC is nasty business DOB!!!…

By gotigers72

October 4, 2006 11:16 PM | Link to this

I’m gonna miss Sutton. He added a lot of insight that you don’t get from people that weren’t HOF pitchers.
A list of early wishes for Christmas presents for some Braves players. My opinion only.

Chuck James - Control like he had in the minors, and to give up less homers. [He gave up 20 in a little over 100 innings] Smoltz - To continue to be one of the best pitchers in baseball, and to continue to grow in his faith. Wickman - Continue to pitch like he did after he came to the Braves. Kyle Davies - To learn how to PITCH and not just THROW. This would include keeping the ball down, throwing less pitches and more strikes. Hudson - To find the magic he had in the AL, and to figure out what he needs to do to keep the ball down. McBride - To trust his stuff and to throw more strikes. Tyler Yates - To be more consistent, to keep the ball down and give up less walks. Mike Hampton - To come back and pitch like he did before his injury. Andruw - To WANT to go the other way more and to keep his promise to lose 15 lbs. to take the strain off his knees and back. Chipper - Health. If this guy stays healthy he will have another MVP year. Take it to the bank. Marcus - To get his wish to remain a Brave, health, and to be able to learn to slide feet first. Frenchy - Plate discipline and to WANT to be less pull happy. LaRoche - Improve focus and improve % of contact. Thorman - To get to play more to show off that bat. Edgar - Play like he played in the first half for an entire year. McCann - Keep that hot bat and continue to improve defensively. Bobby Cox - He doesn’t need anything. He’s already one of the best managers in the history of baseball. Schuerholz - To go out and get the pieces needed to bring the Braves another pennant winner.

You never know. You may get what you ask for if you’re good boys. HO! HO! HO! MERRRRRY CHRISTMAS!

By David O'Brien

October 4, 2006 11:20 PM | Link to this

flbravesgirl, I’m hearing conflicting info on Pete, whether he’ll be back doing both TV and radio or just radio.

I was told tonight by someone who’s involved that the plan was for Pete to do radio only next season. If that’s the case, I’d hope that would be reconsidered, because I really think Pete and Skip bring so much to the table and such a thread of knowledge and perspective about the whole Braves run and climb from 80s oblivion, etc.

I’m not sure how many games Skip plans to do, and I’d hate to see both of them missing from a lot of TBS games.

By The Grinch

October 4, 2006 11:28 PM | Link to this

Although there’s no question that Don Sutton was/is about as long-winded as a man can be (without actually being Joe Morgan), I like what I’m used to and I don’t like this dismantling of the Braves broadcasters to suit some flaming corporate agenda that we don’t care about. Time-Warner makes me physically ill. Corporate ownership of a once-proud franchise now relegated to toeing the line makes me violently physically ill. If you’re listening, Time Warner(and I know you’re not), give us our Braves back and go do something you’re actually good at…well, I’m not sure what that would be. All your subsidiaries suck. AOL sucks. Even Ted Turner’s crazy behind said if he’d known how inept and worthless you all were he never would’ve even talked to you in the first place. Go away, and don’t come back. Did I mention p** off?

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 4, 2006 11:37 PM | Link to this

Any word on why Sutton won’t be back?

By The Grinch

October 4, 2006 11:45 PM | Link to this

Sorry, DOB; I don’t mean to be so wishy-washy in my opinions. I’ll try not to straddle the fence so much in the future. So, how was Colorado? :-) T’hawk’s my boy, but I had to make sure he was on to the right stuff (Green, Gaye, Sly). You mentioned Albert King; is he the one who growls when he plays solos, or is that Freddie King? When the blues guitar cranks up, I just tend to go in a trance; I get those two confused.

Kevin, true sailing is dead.

By Brad

October 5, 2006 12:03 AM | Link to this

I think its really too bad that TBS is not only cutting back on games, but the guys who have been with the Braves so long. Its really too bad how things have gone down with TBS, but at least now we can get games online and on cable no matter where we live, even if we do have to pay. However, I think it would be horrible to not have Skip and Pete on TBS…they mean a lot to everyone who has been a Braves fan all these years. Thanks for the updated DOB!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 5, 2006 12:20 AM | Link to this

This whole TBS thing comes down to MLB wanting to get a piece of the pie. They want their cut. The same thing is happening to the Cubs. The Cubs used to be on WGN all the time but now split time between WGN and Comcast Chicago. Same with the White Sox. I live in Indiana and see both teams quite a bit. But, even with that, the Sox had about 50 games or so this year that were not televised here because they were only on local tv in Chicago. Selig is going to make sure they get their cut.

They say the Braves will still be on the “game of the week”. Yeah, right. Even if the Braves are the best team in baseball in 2008 how many times do you think the Braves will be on tv on those Sundays. I’m guessing about once.

By Scalp'em Braves

October 5, 2006 12:29 AM | Link to this

Dave:

Thanks for the “insider” informative post.

I like Don Sutton, and enjoyed his call of the game. He’s got a good baseball voice, knows the right terms to spew out (“he hits it on a rope over the right field wall”), etc. Plus, I liked Sutton’s HOF insight on what was going on with the game. Although I didn’t dislike Joe Simpson, I thought Don was superior to him as a color guy. I enjoyed the old days of Don providing color, and Skip doing the play by play - they were a great pair, but I noticed that they rarely appeared together on radio or television. Don’t know if that was due to some friction between them, but I liked them together.

Anybody here cannot stand Bob “Biff Barf” Rathbun as much as me? I’ve railed against him time and time again. Never saw one word in response. I cannot stand his contrived voice, and cannot stand his incessant cheerleading for the Braves (“?What a GREAT play”, he yells in exhuberance, describing a routine play by the shortstop). I’m sure Biff is a nice guy, and he’s got nice hair, and knows how to look into the camera, and show his teeth, while he talks. But, I CANNOT STAND THIS GUY - HE SOUNDS LIKE GEORGE JETSON!!!! If he continues to do games on “Sports South”, or FSN, or whatever they are calling the network du jour, I’ll turn the TV sound down and listen to the radio broadcast.

I do like Torborg - he is low key, knowleageble, having been involved in the game at all levels for 40 years and knows a lot of the players as a former manager/coach for several teams in the past. He is a huge improvement over Tom Paciorek.

As for McCann - he is THE MAN. He is big, he is stong, he is talented, but above all, he is SMART at the plate. Dubbed “Baby Huey” by moi in an earlier post, he is, to opposing pitchers, a seeming fish (an expression from my wrestling days for somebody who would flop around until he got pinned). He is not a fish - he is a swimmer, and is our future behind the plate, and at the plate. I noticed LoDuca is batting 2nd in the Muts post season. McCann is worthy of hitting in the top 4 or 5 of our order.

Frenchy - yes, he swings at lots of first pitches - reminds me of the old cartoon of two vultures sitting there, with one saying “waiting for something to die, to hell with that, I’m gonna kill something”. Nothing wrong with that, as first ball hitters can be effective. He just needs to mature and learn which first pitches to swing at. I’m confident that Frenchy will come through in the long run. And, after all, he broke the 100 RBI barrier this year, despite his less than impressive BA. The guy was money with runners in scoring position.

As for Frenchy’s errors, some of those resulted from his a*-bustng style of play. I don’t fault him - he lays it out every play, and every once in a while, screws up. He makes up for those occasional errors with incredible throws. Don’t ever, ever, question Frenchy’s heart and desire to play his best.

McBride - I acknowledge the stats referenced. But, I would like to know how many batters he walked, and how many scored. That seemed to be his weakness this yet.

Nuff said in this verbose post.

We will rule in 2007!!

By Tom A. Hawk

October 5, 2006 12:34 AM | Link to this

Don Sutton lost me one game years ago when he praised Jeff Blauser for “an intelligent strikeout.” I still haven’t figured that one out. Shaun?

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 12:35 AM | Link to this

Grinch, that Time Warner/corporate diatribe made me smile.

By the way, you gotta hear a couple of tunes on Jerry Lee’s new CD. The Killer, 70 and stick making music. It’s called “Last Man Standing,” which refers to the original four giants of Sun Studios _ Elvis, The Man In Black, Orbison, Carl Perkins and Killer, only one of whom is still standing (and isn’t he about the LAST one who should be still standing?)

It’s a CD of “duets” with the likes of Jimmy Paige (their version of “Rock and Roll” will make you move), Keith Richards, B.B. King, Kris Kristofferson (They do “The Pilgrim”), Haggard, Neil Young, etc. A few unimpressive tunes, but a bunch of really good ones.

I don’t know how much they had to do in the studio to makie it sound so good, but I imagine a lot, after seeing hold bad Jerry Lee looked tonight on Letterman. He makes Neil look like a teen-ager. But anyway, it’s a good CD, or at least about 2/3rds of it is.

By Scalp'em Braves

October 5, 2006 12:36 AM | Link to this

Grinch - you should be embarrassed over the DAWGS performance this past weekend against the 2nd worst team in the conference. I was in Atlanta over the weekend, and watched the game with “Leg-Humper” fans - it was painful to watch them cheer their team to no avail for their team until late.

War Eagle, Ya’ll!!!

By Kentavo

October 5, 2006 12:40 AM | Link to this

Relief pitchers that come in the 7th and beyond should be fined for every walk they issue. That’ll learn ‘em.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 5, 2006 12:43 AM | Link to this

McCann is a stud. Nothing more to say.

I agree about Frenchy’s errors. His great ability causes some of those errors. Because of his cannon for an arm, he attempts to make throws that others wouldn’t dare. Hopefully, he will start to hit better. I am interested to see how he responds to having a full spring training. I know some see this as a cop out, but I think the World Baseball Classic messed him up and was a total waste of time. By the way, I think it could have been a factor in Chipper’s health problems this year. If he had been in spring training getting into shape, perhaps he would have been healthier for the games that really mattered. Maybe.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 12:46 AM | Link to this

Yeah, I checked Don for being long-winded, but he does know what he’s talking about, which is more than I can say for a number of announcers. Rathbun doesn’t bother me so much, though he’s nothing special. I like Torborg; he knows what the hell he’s talking about without hogging the mic. Joe Morgan could learn a thing or two about that, the guy’s in love with his own voice more than just about anyone I’ve ever heard. Yeah, Joe, we know you’re experienced. We got the point the first five times you explained the last play and your opinion of what the player(s) OUGHT to have done. Guess what? They didn’t. Shut the $%#& up and call the next play. Good Lord. Skip and Pete (or Joe S.) would be ideal, but why go with what everyone knows and likes? Scalp ‘em, if I didn’t know better, I’d think you knew your college football…:-)

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 5, 2006 12:46 AM | Link to this

DOB, do you not like Boyz II Men?

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 5, 2006 12:51 AM | Link to this

I have to say that I like Joe Morgan, but he can be a bit wordy can’t he?

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 12:56 AM | Link to this

Scalp, I will be the first to tell you the Dawgs are about 10 slots overrated this year and Y’all are about as likely as ever in history to spank us. We’ll likely be exposed aginst Tennessee this Saturday; a team Richt usually beats. Our D is good, as are our three-headed running attack, but our QB situation is dire. We’ve got an untalented senior who will start, giving way to two highly talented freshmen who will struggle. I conceed, though I will still woof loudly. Enjoy, but be humble. The next three years won’t be so kind to the Eagles/Tigers/Plainsmen/…can’t you guys even figure out what to call yourselves after 120 years?

DOB, I’m surprised Killer’s still alive. Just like Dion. I’ll see about checking them both out. So, you’re saying you don’t think I could get a job as a sales rep for our parent company? I can be persuading…:-)

By Daybed Wagmoe

October 5, 2006 01:04 AM | Link to this

DOB - you said that mccann was 70-for-90 with runners on base, but that doesn’t equal .368. that equals .778. damn - i didn’t know he was THAT good!

also, in keeping with your little tidbits about players’ stats and what not…smoltz could have possibly had 22 wins this season if the bullpen had finished his work in each of those 6 games.

dave roberts?

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 5, 2006 01:07 AM | Link to this

If not for the bullpen, Smoltz would be the runaway Cy Young winner.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 01:09 AM | Link to this

Robert(JIB); that’s an understatement. I don’t often disagree with him; I just wish he’d chill out and let there be room for other thought.

Scalp, I will say i like Tuberville advocating a playoff system. The SEC gets screwed every year; our conference is 25% harder than the next closest one and any one of our two-loss teams could wipe the field with most “frontrunners” like USC and Texas that only have two challenges per year on their schedule. Time to separate the men from the boys…

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 5, 2006 01:13 AM | Link to this

Yeah, Morgan goes overboard. His partner, Jon Miller, does the same thing. I actually like when both of those guys do games but they both can have trouble knowing when to shut up.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 5, 2006 01:16 AM | Link to this

Grinch, I agree about the SEC. I live in Big 10 country and I always hear about how difficult the Big 10 is, but the SEC is five times tougher than the Big 10. Other than Vanderbilt and Kentucky there are no doormats in the SEC. And even now, those teams are tough.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 01:16 AM | Link to this

Ha! In Bill Simmons running diary of the Mets game today, his 1:04 pm comment was “Today’s announcers: Gary Thorne, Steve Phillips and Joe Morgan, who will leave after the game with a police escort so he can announce game two of tonight’s Yankees series. If you ask me, that’s a lot of Joe Morgan. I mean, a LOT of Joe Morgan. But you didn’t ask me.” I love it!

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 01:25 AM | Link to this

Yeah, Robert; I hate to play the no respect card (it’s SO cliche in sports); and I hate even worse to defend Auburn, but after they went 13-0 in the SEC and didn’t get a title shot…whew. Kentucky and Vanderbilt would be mid-level teams in most conferences. Mississippi State has fallen hard, but still.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 01:46 AM | Link to this

Oh, my god…Y’all just have to check out Simmons’ running diary of that game if you feel about Morgan like I do. He checks him so hard and so realistically about a half-dozen times. Man. When Morgan leaves in the 5th inning with his police escort to get to Yankee Stadium, Simmons says “I wait for Joe to point out “If you have a police escort, you get to Yankee Stadium faster,” or “The big difference between yankee Stadium and Shea Stadium is that the Yankees play in Yankee Stadium.” Hee-hee!

By Calvin

October 5, 2006 02:30 AM | Link to this

I really dislike this agreement with TBS and MLB. For people like me who do not live in the South anymore,(I live in Canada now)I won’t be able to see any Braves games after next year except maybe on ESPN Sunday Night game and the rare occasion TBS has the Bravos on this Sunday special or whatever. It is really lame in my opinion but I guess since TBS will be making a lot of money from this, it is all good. Weak.

By Plate Appearance

October 5, 2006 02:41 AM | Link to this

I don’t usually take time to write much in these blogs, but I was extremely disappointed to hear that Don Sutton would be leaving the Braves Broadcast team after this year – and wanted to comment.

Don Sutton was and is the epitome of a class in the broadcast booth. Listening to him broadcast a game never ceased to brighten my day and increase my enjoyment of Braves baseball. I always looked forward to listening to a game upon hearing Don Sutton would be in the booth for the upcoming broadcast.

Ever positive. Quick to laugh with others and join in with his own brand of down home humor. Always insightful. Willing to “tell it like it is” – to coin an old phrase. A great baseball man, who played the game as it should be played – and was summarily rewarded with his rightful placement in the Hall of Fame. Yes, the epitome of class!

But a quick story about Don Sutton. I live in Vero Beach, the training site of the Dodgers, and had the pleasure of seeing Don in action one day during Spring Training, among those who were there hoping to obtain an autograph or two from the players.

So many sign without any interchange with the fans in a cold, stark kind of way. I stood from afar and watched. Don was warm and genuinely friendly with the fans, as he signed bats, balls and other memorabilia, taking as much time as necessary to accommodate all. He acted as if he cared, because he truly does.

That’s Don Sutton. That’s the Don Sutton all who know him “from afar”, through listening to Braves baseball would expect him to be – and nothing less.

Removing Don Sutton from the Braves Broadcast team, as far as I’m concerned (and I know a multitude of fans would echo my sentiment) is like removing Andruw from center, Chipper from third, or Smoltzie from the mound. Braves baseball just won’t be the same without him!

And Don, I don’t know if you read these blogs, but we will miss you greatly! Thanks so much for all the marvelous years of baseball on behalf of we the fans!!

I’m hoping somehow you’ll make it back to the Braves booth as a free agent! I just can’t see you with another team. Here’s hoping the public outcry will be such, as with Pete and Skip last year, that it will indeed happen!

But anyway, thanks again Don! It if was up to us, the fans, you’d still be here!!

P. S. Dave, is there an address we fans can write to – to voice our dissatisfaction with this decision? Furthermore, can you give us insight (and even a name) on who was responsible for this decision?

Fans, let your “vote” be heard!

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 03:15 AM | Link to this

Hey, Don; nobody reads this blog. Love Ya, but no need to become “Plate appearance.” Just kidding. Really. Yeah, it would blow to see Don go for all his faults. Like I said earlier; I like what I’m used to. Dodger or no, Don’s a bit verbose but he’s earned a place here. Down with multi-conglomerate corporations! Eviscerate the Bouguoise! Damn the “Man!”

By Bob, journalist

October 5, 2006 06:52 AM | Link to this

David O’B … a very good, informative post.

The diatribes des Grinch make me smile too … as does your “I’m not sure how many … I’d hate to see both of them missing from a lot of TBS games” … sorrowful though it may be.

It’s the “lot of TBS games” that gets me … and to think I used to get upset ‘cause there weren’t 162.

Mindless Mindtriggers … One of my least liked comments about hitters in a slump has always been “he’s hitting the ball well … but right at people” … to me, the objective is to hit it where they ain’t … so give the pitcher some credit, if he were hitting it well … it wouldn’t be right at people.

By Greg

October 5, 2006 07:29 AM | Link to this

Sutton could be long winded and self-important, but his pitching analysis taught me a lot. And I pitched in high school. If you really want long winded listen to Vin Scully or Bob Costas. Those guys will tell you what the player ate on his first birthday. Costas is a good journalist and Scully a good baseball man, but the player bios get ridiculous.

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 07:49 AM | Link to this

Now, where is Payne to tell us how little relevance the pressure stats are? J/K Payne.

Here I am!

And yes, around 100-200 at-bats really isn’t enough to tell us anything.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=betweenthenumbers/ortiz/060405

Excerpt from this chapter:

…apart from the bonus effects of plate discipline, it’s probably folly for a club to go looking for clutch hitters — the ability just isn’t important enough in the bigger scheme of things. Producing wins at the plate is about 70 percent a matter of overall hitting ability, 28 percent dumb luck, and perhaps 2 percent clutch- or situational-hitting skill.

Clutch hitting ability exists, more than previous research would indicate. It’s about on the order of something like baserunning ability. Sometimes baserunning can make the difference between success and failure. Sometimes a hitter like David Ortiz gets a bunch of big hits down the stretch, and it makes the difference in a pennant race. Usually, though, it’s the big three that prevail: Pitch the ball, catch the ball, and most of all hit the ball.

By berigan

October 5, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to this

I’m sorry to see Don Sutton leave as well. After 17 years, you’d think the people in charge of hiring and firing would let him know 2 weeks ago, so he could say goodbye and thanks. What a silly notion, eh what? Many will miss you Don…. And journalist Bob, I too recall getting mad when I put on TBS in the 80’s and there wasn’t a game on. (What, did they only show 150 games a year then?) I do know if I didn’t see all those braves games when I lived in Jacksonville, I’d never had become a Braves fan. How will a young baseball fan today, living outside of Georgia ever get turned onto the braves these days? You can’t get them on WSB several states away, a soon you won’t be able watch the games on TBS. Someday down the road, the next owners of the team will scratch their heads wondering why the team in only drawing 2 Million fans a season….

By dadgum

October 5, 2006 08:17 AM | Link to this

I too liked Sutton but frankly it doesn’t really matter to me who broadcasts Braves games since we no longer see many of them. Maybe 40 total next year of which I may actually watch half of those. I do think Skip and Pete are icons and should remain as they are excellent all around. We only get TBS telecasts in Virginia.

Couldn’t get to teh Skynyrd concert in Charlottesville Tuesday due to some last minute conflicts but they will be at Chastain in Atlanta this weekend and Virginia Beach tomorrow night. Check ‘em out.

I heard the Jerry Lee/Page Rock & Roll duet last month. Not bad at all. However, nothing compels me to go out and buy the whole cd.

Gotta believe my Yellow Jackets will win the division in the ACC. They should beat Miami at home then lose to Clemson on the road. The key will be NC State & Carolina back to back on the road. Win both those and that should do it. Hopefully(fingers,eyes, toes crossed).

DOB THANKS! Great blog all year. I agree the majority of the time with your views although still a little shaky on Cox at times this year. That’s just me though.

Smoltz would have won 20-22 games this year had the bullpen been anchored by Wick. I can recall at least 6 wins that the bullpen destroyed late. San Diego early on was a prime example. The key next year will we be able to acquire my oft-mentioned starting complement to Smoltz. This team needs another Glavine/Maddux combo if you will. Put James in the #3 slot and Hampton(who just may be that #2 guy but can’t risk that bet)as the #4. Hudson most likely will be around to start in the #5 if he isn’t traded. Overall I am optimistic regardless of the Giles/Andruw situation. Just remember everyone it is all about starting pitching. Our nucleus of players is strong so let’s all hope the rotation gets back to elite status sooner than later.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this

“I’m scratching my head here, wondering how in the hell my comment about the Dodgers’ highly unusual boneheaded play ….. somehow became a discussion of … Bobby Cox?”

Word association my friend. I saw the word boneheaded and immediately thought of Bobby Cox

And for anyone making fun of the “leg-humpers”. Can you say 5-0? (obviously not, if you’re a Tech fan)

By KC

October 5, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this

Yeah, I’m pretty sad to see Don Sutton go. First we learn that we’re no longer getting the true Braves broadcast team on Turner South (now “Sports South”) anymore. Now we find out that we’re losing Don all together. This has been a sad year for Braves fans. Much more for what’s happened in the broadcast booth than what’s happened on the field in my opinion.

I have nothing against Rathbon and Torborg… they seem like terrific people. The fact of the matter is though that they simply aren’t as enjoyable to listen to as the old Braves broadcasting gang. Skip, Joe, Pete, Don, and even Chip (who I’m still getting used to) have a lot more personality and are just plain better than Rathbon and Torborg.

The reason Fox gave for ousting long established Braves broadcasting crew was that they are associated in people’s minds with Turner broadcasting. “Our guys are associated with Fox”, they said. I think that’s way off base. The real Braves broadcasters are first and foremost associated with the Braves, not with any particular network. That’s why the Time-Warner suits wanted to move Skip and Pete last year off of the TBS telecasts. They wanted to change the image from “Braves on TBS” to “MLB on TBS”, and those guys were too closely associated with the Braves for that too work.

FOX, we want to hear the REAL Braves broadcast team!!!!!!!!!

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this

Robert,

I have no idea if Bobby Cox is a great manager or a horrible one. But it would seem difficult for his teams to post a .563 winning percentage with a “bonehead” manager.

He’s managed teams that won at least 90 games in 14 seasons. He’s managed 100-win teams six times. I know the players should get most of the credit, but shouldn’t we assume he did something right? Or at least that he hasn’t done as many wrong things as many other managers?

By 10-7-4

October 5, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

Greetings all—this just in—‘Popeye Is Dead’——-e-coli.

By John Hoar

October 5, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

I want to add my name to the fans that thought Don Sutton was great. I’ll really miss you Don.

By Bob, journalist

October 5, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this

Popeye’s safe … he eats gray spinach!

By KC

October 5, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

Also, it should be noted that Popeye only eats canned spinach. The contaminated spinach was bagged, not canned. No need to worry.

By Lew

October 5, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

35-Come on Dude-You just knew Bluto would win in the end. As far as the announcers go-I, too will greatly miss the Braves broadcasters. I only missed one game this year with the MLB Extra Innings package and with XM Radio, but many times the announcers were the other teams and many times was Rathbun/Torborg/Gant. Believe me, it was not the same. Skip, Pete, Don, Joe and Chip was without a doubt the best out there and the TBS camera crew is also the best. But in the end, when has TimeWarner done anything right? Dadgum-Do you get into Procol Harum? I’ve been on a Procol remembrance tour lately. A very underrated band.

By Bob, journalist

October 5, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

Robert, dead horse beating is the way of the weak, insecure and closed minded … those with a narrow plane of reference tend to dwell on what they think they know and while that’s probably better than dwelling on things about which you are sure that you know nothing … it’s a lot like folks that eat the same thing day after day … it’s boring and you miss out on a lot of good stuff.

You can take it to the bank that most folks probably have figured out by now that you don’t think much of Bobby Cox … and reaching those who haven’t yet grasped the idea doesn’t seem to have much potential as a good investment of time and energy; especially with most of them watching their teams in the playoffs.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this

I’ll chime in to lament the pending loss of Don Sutton. I have zero complaints about him whatsoever that I wouldn’t assign to any announcer. What he brings to every game he covers is an incredible perspective on pitching. Man. It is such a HUGE rarity to have a superb announcer who just happens to be a pitcher and a HOF one at that! Plus, he has an excellent ability to view things from the hitter’s perspective, as well as from a pitching coach/managerial view as well.

Don, you will Most Definitely be Very Sorely Missed by practically everyone. Whether they realize it now or not.

I’m sure you’ll have all sorts of offers. It’s a real shame though to see you parting with the Braves.

Thank you for every one of those seasons here.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this

Why would FOX want to draw attention to “their” people? FOX as a whole has more morons and scumbags working for it than any other media outlet. Why not get Shaun Hannity to call the games and have done with it? Can you tell I want my TBS back?

35, your wife must be a very understanding woman. :-)

Bob, I’m sure he’s different behind closed doors, but Bobby Cox is the absolute master of absurd comments like the one you mentioned. It borders on the comic. Reitsma gives up 5 runs on 6 pitches and it’s “The only bad pitch he made was the one for the grand slam.” Never mind the three doubles that preceeded it. Sigh.

By Todd

October 5, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

I liked Don Sutton a lot, he done a fine job. But Rathbun and Torborg absolutely stink. Less enjoyable watching for me. Stick with the old stuff, it works everytime. I’m in SC, with TBS dropping all of those games will FSN pick them all up? I will have major MLB withdrawel without all of the televised Braves games.

By Steve

October 5, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

I live in Pennsylvania, and I can still get all the Braves games (Extra Innings package) so I was wondering if the package isn’t available elsewhere (like in the South, where in maybe the Carolinas it would be blacked out). Also, would the regional telecasts of TBS be available on extra innings in 2008?

By Spider29

October 5, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

I miss living in Georgia and being able to see every Braves game. But there is this thing called MLB Extra Innings that I get each year now that enables me to see almost all of the games. The bad thing is that most of the games are Fox feeds and that means Rathbun and Torborg. I am fortunate to have a local radio that carries the Braves. I mute the TV and listen to Pete, Skip and Don. If Pete and Skip are doing the radio broadcasts, I’ll be listening. DOB, thanks for the statistics/numbers. I knew McCann had a great year but that reinforced what I thought I knew! I am already looking forward to next year! Go Braves in 2007!

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

I just tried to check out the NFL section of ESPN.com and all three headline articles were about Terrell Owens. What does one have to do to get away from this fool? Why not just start a 24-hour T.O. network so we can be free not to watch it and get some other sports news? I can sum up everything everyone ever needs to know about him (besides stats and injury reports like anyone else) in one sentence. “He’s a good reciever and he’s an idiot, not necc. in that order.” Next! Honestly, have Y’all gotten anything else besides that out of the 50,000 hours of coverage devoted to him so far?

By Todd

October 5, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

I think Don Sutton was real good and he will be missed. Rathbun and Torborg absolutely stink. It made the broadcast less enjoyable. Stick with the old stuff, it will work everytime. I live in SC, does anyone know if FSN will be picking up all the Braves games or are we gonna have to suffer through Braves withdrawel? Sort of like I’m feeling now. Go WEST COAST BRAVES, beat the mets.

By Todd

October 5, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

Extra innings is available in SC, but the bad thing is that it cost extra money. Although I have no clue of how much. Does Fox read these blogs? Maybe they will hear us Braves fans out about Rathbun and Torborg.

By Jman

October 5, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this

It’s about time Don left! I have been so sick of him for years! “It’s like a raincoat, see.” He’s a Dodger guy, let him go help Vin Scully. Pete, Skip, Joe, and Chip on the other hand are the best! Thankfully they’re still around. I just wish one of them would move to Sportsouth.

By Salty55

October 5, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Am I missing something? Don may not be back with TBS, but I don’t see that he’s missing from the radio line-up, or do they go hand in hand? I like Don, Torborg, and Gant…they give a perspective only players/coaches/managers can provide.

By Dave

October 5, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

Finally, TBS will be fun to watch and listen to again. I was starting to dread their broadcasts. All is well :-)

By 10-7-4

October 5, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

AAHHH!! Well Bob, Lew, Grinch & all of my blogger friends I am very relieved to hear of Popeye’s well being. The situation [ala Sam Clemons] is now acceptable. Lew, I kind of rooted for ole Bluto anyway. I felt that any guy who would hook up with Olive, deserved whatever he got.

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

I was never a big Sutton fan. Seemed fairly knowledgable, but also seemed like he liked to show off. He is only slightly less annoying than Joe Morgan.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

Thanks Payne. I guess now that it’s up there in italics we should stop being so proud of McCann’s great clutch hitting. So far he’s built a career on it, but it was all for naught. The italics has spoken. What McCann did was dumb luck and nothing more.

By the way, what are Pujols’ career “clutch” numbers? I’d venture a guess that they are better than Rapheal Belliard’s. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were better than A-Rod’s either. I can’t think of a clutch hit from that guy. Mainly what pops in my head is A-Rod slapping the firstbasemans glove after rolling over a pitch to hit when the team needed a clutch hit.

By 10-7-4

October 5, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

ooops—Pardon me Mark for the typo—should be ‘Clemens’. The hand eye coordination is the 2nd thing to go.

By Lew

October 5, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Steve-The way the Extra Innings package works(at least in NewEngland, but I’m sure everywhere) is that they identify your home team (usually proximity to your cable supplier) and those games are blacked out. In Vermont, all of the Red Sox games are blacked out, but we have NESN (New England Sports Network) which televises ALL of the Red Sox games. The only other requirements that I know of with Extra Innings is you must have digital cable and it costs $160 a year (broken into four monthly payments on your cable bill). I imagine that it would do no one in Georgia much good (except Metro Dude and fans of other teams), as you would probably be blacked out, at least for home games. Contact your local cable company for more details. There are approximately 100 games per week on Extra Innings. XM Radio broadcasts ALL ML games during the season (probably playoffs as well) and has a baseball talk show station on 24-7-365 with Rob Dibble and Buck Martinez among others like Orestes Destrada. They do discussion and commentary as well as interviews. They even have a fantasy baseball show dealing with all types of fantasy leagues. The infomercial ends.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

“He’s managed teams that won at least 90 games in 14 seasons. He’s managed 100-win teams six times. I know the players should get most of the credit, but shouldn’t we assume he did something right?”

My arguement is that, given the rosters he has had, that no, we should NOT assume he did anything right, because given those rosters, as many wins as they had, they probably shoulda had more, and definately should have had more playoff success. I think he did a lot of things wrong and that those 100 win teams shoulda won 105 or 110 except for him.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

“Bob, I’m sure he’s different behind closed doors, but Bobby Cox is the absolute master of absurd comments like the one you mentioned”

Grinch, other than it being almost inconceivablke to imagine someone being THAT stupid and still being able to live outside of a nursing home, give me ONE piece of evidence that makes you think he is in fact any different behind closed doors

He’s so darn consistant and good at appearing incredibly dumb that logic says it cant be an act

By Robert

October 5, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

“Robert, dead horse beating is the way of the weak, insecure and closed minded”

1) An ongoing problem that continues to hurt the team we all root for is not, in my opinion, a dead horse, but rather an active issue

2) Blind acceptance of the party line, just because the infamous “they” all supposedly say so, is, in fact, the hallmark of the weak, insecure, and closed-minded

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

No, we should be proud of McCann’s overall performance—both in clutch and non-clutch situations.

The question is not whether Pujols has better clutch numbers than Belliard. The question is whether Pujols’s clutch numbers significantly different from his other numbers.

Most hitters’ numbers in the clutch are pretty consistent with their overall numbers, given enough plate appearances. And most hitters show no consistent ability to put up better numbers in the clutch than in other situations.

And does it make sense? If you had major league talent, why wouldn’t you try extremely hard every time you go up to the plate? Why would you press only in “clutch” situations?

By 10-7-4

October 5, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

Robert—I’ve been absent for a long spell—so pardon if I’m going over old ground. You claim that 14 straight division titles are the result of ‘dumb’ luck?? Before my leave of absence, I presented my{also Drunky Clint’s} evaluation of Mr. Cox. I won’t go into it again because of it’s length, but I felt it explained how he could win 14 straight division titles in a row, and manage only 1 championship during that spell. ps: it wasn’t just dumb luck.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

given the rosters he has had…
This is what they said about the Phillies. Given the rosters the Phillies had, they probably should have at least came in first in the division once, but that never happened. Larry Bowa couldn’t scream them into the playoffs no matter what. Mean while Cox took 18 rookies into a first place finish, ahead of Larry Bowa and a stacked Phillies team.

But it’s a valid point Robert. Good thinking. This will help when Cox retires. We can make sure to stay away from Joe Torre as a managerial candidate. He isn’t talented at all.

By Lew

October 5, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

Robert-I won’t debate you about BC anymore because it’s obvious that neither of us will change our opinions. That’s fine, but why do you insist on thinking we are following a “party line”? Just because I and others disagree with your position doesn’t mean we are incapable of making up our own minds on a subject. I adhere to no party line whatsoever. I just don’t agree with you. That certainly doesn’t make me a butt kisser or so stupid that I can’t make my own decisions. We get you don’t care for BC or for his style or decision making ability, but we don’t accuse you of not having the free will to decide this on your own. Give us a flipping break and treat us with a little bit of respect. I would assume that if you hold everyone who disagrees with you in so little esteem, that you probably don’t care for much of anyone.

By Salty55

October 5, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

Shaun: Who’s to say players press only in ‘clutch’ situations? That can’t be measured. The pitcher knows it’s clutch as well…perhaps their contribution has more to do with the outcome than the hitter’s…but again, how to measure…not that I want to!

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

Robert,

I don’t know if there is a good way to measure a manager’s success, which is why it’s really hard to argue for or against your claim that Bobby Cox is a bad manager.

I guess one way is to look at what we might reasonably expect from teams and see if they exceeded expectations consistently under a particular manager. I don’t have the data in front of me, but I would guess Cox has done that.

I’m sure you could do a little study with the Braves pre-season Diamond Mind projections over Bobby Cox’s tenure.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

Most hitters’ numbers in the clutch are pretty consistent
That’s a pretty vague statement in itself. It admits that some players clutch numbers exceed their regular numbers which would imply they are better in the clutch. It also implies that some do not, meaning they are worse in the clutch. It would make sense right? That some people are better under pressure than others? So maybe it isn’t a matter of pressing, as much as a matter of not cracking.

By Lew

October 5, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

I don’t know about stats for this, but I do know that since 2000, it was predicted pre-season that this would be THE YEAR the Braves were dethroned. Guess what, we won anyway until this year. So that leaves at least six consecutive seasons BC team exceeded expectations. The final season of these six, BC won with 18 rookies. Certainly THAT had to exceed expectations. I guess that with a good manager we would have won the WS six more times because BC couldn’t exceed the expectations quite that much.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

Salty55: Interesting take. Most statistical analysis looks only at one side of the equation. That is to say, the over all Hitter X has success/failure in the clutch. Like McCann’s stats up above. They are over the whole season against every pitcher he faced in those situations.
Maybe we should break that down and see how the pitcher reacts when he is in the pinch. Then juxtapose the two and see if there is a correlation.
Doing this would be fascinating and I’d bet you could learn who truely is a clutch hitter and who truely is a wiz at pitching out of jams. And likewise who cracks under pressure. Some players just can’t handle it. Others realize the situation and focus better under pressure. It happens every day in every job. People respond differently to pressure situation and non-pressure situations.

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

Salty55,

Well, you assume you have a large sample of different types pitchers in a large sample of clutch plate appearances.

I mean, if there was a such thing as clutch, wouldn’t it clearly show up in the numbers somewhere somehow?

By Robert

October 5, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

“I guess one way is to look at what we might reasonably expect from teams and see if they exceeded expectations consistently under a particular manager”

Shaun - egg-ZACT-ly — But I disagree with you that the Braves have in fact exceeded expectations

To my way of thinking, ONE WS title with the powerhouse teams of the mid 90’s was in fact a significant UNDERachievement.

And I dont think that beating all of FOUR other teams every year , particularly given the Braves rosters, is such a big deal

Tell me this, these overachieving Braves teams - gosh if they overachieved so MUCH during the season, dont you think that just ONCE in the past five years they might’ve continued to overachieve thru mayobe just ONE round of the playoffs?

Guys, do this for me , if you’ll indulge me. Name me the Braves team that y’all think was just so bad that it was some miracle that Dipstick got them ahead of all of FOUR other teams

By Robert

October 5, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Lew - Give me a reason you think Cox is great that is not

a)”everyone in baseball” says or thinks so

or

b)”14 blah blah blah”

At that point, you’re no longer the party line

By Robert

October 5, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

“We can make sure to stay away from Joe Torre as a managerial candidate. He isn’t talented at all.”

Torre got his teams 4 rings in 5 years vs Cox 1 in 15.

I think if Torre had managed the Braves the last 15 years, John Smoltz might have more rings than fingers and that Bobby Cox might’ve gotten the 1998 Yankees a wild card spot

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

Name me the Braves team that y’all think was just so bad that it was some miracle that [the greatest manager who ever lived] got them ahead of all of FOUR other teams
2005.
2004.
2001.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

“You claim that 14 straight division titles are the result of ‘dumb’ luck?? “

Not at all. I dont think luck had anything to do with the LONG TERM successes OR failures of the Braves

It was GREAT PLAYERS, particularly the long standing and almost always healthy trio of Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz that was the cornerstone of the run of division titles

It was a dumb MANAGER who was then subsequantly responsible for the team’s failure to turn that run of excellent rosters and division titles into a legacy of playoff successes worthy of any note

What I am saying in the end is that as good as y’all think the players have been, that they were and are in fact that much better.

If you think it took a genius to lead a rotation of Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz into the playoffs, then you are way underestimating just how good those guys were

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

I think if Torre… yadda, yadda, yadda.
Well that’s just like, your opinion, man.

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

That’s a pretty vague statement in itself. It admits that some players clutch numbers exceed their regular numbers which would imply they are better in the clutch. It also implies that some do not, meaning they are worse in the clutch. It would make sense right? That some people are better under pressure than others? So maybe it isn’t a matter of pressing, as much as a matter of not cracking.

Actually, what I said was given enough plate appearances a players clutch numbers would be the same as his numbers in other situations. That’s what I mean by consistency.

But over a career, players don’t really show any consistency from season to season. One year a player might hit well in the clutch and the next he might be horrible.

Some players just can’t handle it. Others realize the situation and focus better under pressure. It happens every day in every job. People respond differently to pressure situation and non-pressure situations.

Players that can’t handle pressure are also the players who can’t hit/pitch/field. Every situation is a pressure situation in the major leagues. Sometimes good players are not going to perform in the clutch and sometimes bad players are going to perform in the clutch.

I would rather have Albert Pujols or Alex Rodriguez at the plate than some lesser hitter regarded as a good clutch hitter or who had put up better numbers in the clutch but is clearly a worse hitter overall.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

“So that leaves at least six consecutive seasons BC team exceeded expectations.”

Nice to think so, but in fact most preseason prognostications every year were “cant pick against the Braves” - including this year

Give Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and company some credit. It would take more than Bobby Cox to get them behind the Nats or Valentine’s Mets

By Robert

October 5, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Tennessee Paul

baseball-reference.com

Pythagorean analysis of the ‘01, ‘04, and ‘05 teams (calculates how many wins a team would be expected to have, on average, given the number of runs scored for and aginst)

‘01 - predict 90-72 actual - 88-74 ‘04 - predict 95-67 actual - 96-66 ‘05 - predict 91-71 actual - 90-72

net negative 2 games -

Try agin, my friend, to tell me why these teams, in your mind, overachieved?

By Robert

October 5, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

By the way, thanks Tennessee Paul - been waiting for someone to step into that for a while now

By Lew

October 5, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

Robert-I suppose that unless I can give you proof that YOU will accept as definitive, that THEN you will grant that I’m not an A$$ kisser and a party line person. Well, we know that you will never change your mind or accept any proof as definitive, so I guess I’m just doomed to be a party line adherent. At least I’m not a one trick pony with a one track mind. Despite what you may think (and I’m not at all certain that you DO think), I’m quite capable of thinking on my own and I’m not really sure where this supposed party line comes from, anyway.

By Salty55

October 5, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

TPaul and Shaun: A very large sample of data would be required, and I don’t know that it exists, categorically. The variables are exponentially way out there. How many batters have enough apprearances versus a specific pitcher to be ‘statistically valid’…thus, vice versa as well?

It may well be that specialty pitching isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Anyone willing to go back and measure clutch in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s. At least the same pitcher was (usually) on the mound in the first and the 7th-8th inning, so the key variable would be fatigue, solely supposition on my part, though.

You know, at the end of the day, this is comparable to do you get wetter ‘walking, or running in the rain’? Where’s the formula? :-)

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this

So, is anything going on OTHER than destroying Bobby Cox? Give the man a break already, go torture blind ladies or little disabled kids. Cox has taken enough heat, mostly undeserved. Name me one other Atlanta sports manager with half the success of Bobby Cox, season and postseason. I’m from out of town, but the Thrashers and Falcons don’t have 14 playoff appearances between the two of them, do they? How many national championships have GA Tech and the Dawgs? Cox is not Joe Torre, fine. If that’s your point, Robert, we accept it. Fine. Bobby Cox should have done more to win more World Series rings in the mid-90s during the Braves’ glory days. Okay, we give. Now, what are you going to do, climb into the Delorean with Doc and Marty and go back to strangle him before he ruins your life? Get over it, and get on to something constructive. You want Cox gone, fine. Go buy the club, then you can make the call. Until then, chill!

End of rant, and I promise there is no offense intended. Everyone wants to see the Braves succeed, and even though we look at different routes, we all want the same thing. I can appreciate your passion for the team, Robert, even if I disagree with your analysis.

Now on to other things. I like Don Sutton, but I’ve always thought that he’d be happier as a Dodger broadcaster. I didn’t understand what possible connection he could have to the Braves. It would be like Roger Clemens doing a Devil Rays broadcast. There’s just not a conneciton, at least not one that I am old enough to know about.

I for one am incensed at TBS, Turner Sports, Time Warner, and anyone else responsible for this chorus of idiocy. First you build a fan base that is literally nation-wide (I live in NE Arkansas, and have followed the Braves since 1989 on TBS) then you change the system so that you can show 84 re-runs of Friends and Sex in the City? Who freaking cares if Ross and Rachel have the same fight for the 30th time on TV this week? Those shows can be purchased, in full, on DVD. New Braves games cannot. This is one more example of why I should run all Braves broadcasting enterprises. I would put it into the home of every Brave fan who wanted it, and pay for it by fining ever reliever $10,000 every time he walks a batter and Franceour $10,000 every time he swings at a first pitch ball.

See, no problem!

Lord, I shouldn’t post again until sometime in November. I think I’ve exceeded my word limit for the day.

Go Braves!

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

Robert,

It would be better to look at something like Diamond Mind or something that takes a more objective approach at projecting wins for teams to find out if the Braves exceeded expectations.

Looking at things like pre-season publications take a more subjective approach to predicting standings (“we can’t pick against the Braves”) than Diamond Mind or Baseball Prospectus’s PECOTA.

By Lew

October 5, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

Robert-And why if it was great players that got us to the playoffs, didn’t these same players win it all? Why is the season record attributable to the players, but lack of playoff success is only the fault of the manager? That makes no sense whatsoever. It’s not that I’m sticking up for BC-I’m doubting that you apply any logic to what you are saying. You justr can’t have it both ways with your argument. Either Cox is responsible for the success of the entire season, or the players are. You can’t split it up the way you propose and be right both ways.

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

Robert:

Pythagoras has been dead a long time. I don’t care what pre-season numbers said; preseason numbers, by your own admission, took into account average runs scored and runs scored against. I’m assuming those averages were calculated from the previous year’s (but I’m not sure). It doesn’t factor in injuries, nor could it possibly have taken into account the effect of having to use 18 rookies in 2005. No, Bobby Cox had nothing to do with promoting the right kids, getting them ready for major league life once they arrived, or anything. He just sat in the dugout picking his nose all year. You honestly think that the 2005 team didn’t under-achieve? Congratulations, you are the first person I have heard to try that argument over two years. Go back and watch the film of the 2005 team again, this time without your “I hate Bobby Cox” rose-colored glasses obstrucing the view. You really think that everyone has been picking the Braves to continue their string over the last five years? You must not get ESPN, Fox Sports, or ANY other sports channel in America. The ESPN pinheads have been picking the Mets for the last three years, INCLUDING THIS YEAR.

Again, no offense and have a good day.

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

Lew:

Thanks. I forgot to mention that.

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Pythagorean Record is not the same as projected record. Pythagorean record is record based on runs scored and allowed. If you lose a lot of close games like the Braves this year, you are going to underperform your Pythagorean record.

Comparing Pythagorean record to actual record just tells you if a team was lucky or unlucky, basically.

Things like Diamond Mind and PECOTA project based on past player performance, historical performance of similar players, playing time, age, etc. If the Braves out-performed these projections, that might tell us something about Bobby Cox.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 5, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Congratulations, Shaun! Seems you have the power even to bore Robert into muteness. And that’s saying something!

By Bob, journalist

October 5, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Robert, no offense, I just wish your song had more than one verse.

Later Robert, guys and gals … my “performance monitor” says I have 995 new emails … maybe more virus attacks!

At least it’s different …

By geauxbraves2000

October 5, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

I actually jumped into the DeLorean and took BC & JS out of the equation. The Braves went to the playoffs in 1995 but were quickly elimated, and did not have another winning season until they went 84-78 in 2021. I didn’t like what I saw, so I fixed it and all is good again. One WS is better than none compared to what I saw.

Geaux Braves!!

By Carolina Lady

October 5, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Hey, Matthew! How’s Miss Jennifer and the little one?! :-))

There are times I wish we did have a word limit ‘cause that would reduce the amount the rest of us have to endure from Johnny-One-Note. :-))

By ncscoots

October 5, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

oh, the Pythagorean! (just wanted to get that in there, because it’s SUCH a cool word).

I’m really posting to rail once again against the totally bogus way AJC has gone about reducing the number of posts by individuals. The delay between posting and seeing the comment appear is simply asinine, as a methodology of accomplishing the mission. The way any smart programmer would have done this is check the timestamp at the time of a post against the most recent post by the same IP, and bail if it doesn’t meet the standard wait-time (SARCASM ALERT - Dave, if your tech-weenies need help with this kind of kindergarten code, I’ll be happy to consult - END OF ALERT). The practice of delaying the post, regardless of when the IP address last posted (if ever), has been successful in at least this respect: I seldom post at all, let alone post many. Maybe that’s what someone had in mind, but, if so, it’s a fairly moronic way to treat a customer group as passionate about the product as this blog’s participants.

There…I feel much better now. I can’t STAND infuriating software.

By Bob, journalist

October 5, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

For those interested, it’s evidently the Trojan.Zonebac virus … at least Norton just reported that it’s active on this machine … later!

By Mets Stink

October 5, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

Robert, you’re entitled to your opinion, but do you really have to voice it over and over again? Most everyone on this blog knows you want Bobby out and I’m sure the vast majority doesn’t care. The I hate Bobby campaign is getting old and boring. Find something else to talk about.

By Beachcomber

October 5, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

Scalp em Braves: I’m very late replying to your well crafted remarks. Couldn’t agree more - don’t dislike Joe but Don Sutton was light years ahead in depth of analysis. As a guy who used to hire poeple like that, my only complaint was Don (as well as Skip) would get a little lazy and coast once in a while. Pete - never! At the end of the season, I turned in my digital box, a must for seeeing Braves games here in Florida. Gonna rely on the radio (or computer) next year - just can’t warm to Turner South (or whatever it’s called this week) without the “A” team.

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady:

Jennifer and Walter are doing great! We do not have to go back to the pediatrician until Walter’s 2 mo. well baby check up, and Jennifer goes for her 6 wk checkup at the end of the month. Otherwise, everything is great-took him to church last night for the first time. That was a trip!

Geauxbraves: I still think that the Delorean is the coolest movie car since the ’80s. And I like your analysis. It’s about as scientific as Pythagoras…:)

Go Braves!

By Bobbymahlon

October 5, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

Can you tell me how many Braves games I can expect to see in 2007 and 2008? I live in Greenwood S.C. and get TBS,TSouth,FoxSP,USA and TNT. I’m having a hard time figuring it out. I’m a diehard Braves fan and would hate to miss a single game. If I can’t get all the game will the cable companies be carrying a package that I could purchase ?

By KC

October 5, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

This really shouldn’t be “breaking news” (Don Sutton’s leaving). When wrapping up the last TBS game of the season, Don Sutton signed off by saying something to the effect of “I want to thank all the fans. It’s been a pleasure doing this for the last 17 years.”

That statement all but outright told us that he wouldn’t be back.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 5, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

Future post from Robert, five years after Bobby Cox decides to retire:

“Donkey in Cooperstown! Hee-haw!!”

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Well Robert, looks like I don’t need to respond to the merits… but nice try.

Payne: I’d agree that I’d rather have Pujols up there in the clutch, but not A-Rod, nor Soriano.

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

Daybed, that was my special math….

Actually, should’ve been 70-for-190, not 70-for-90. rather important 1 got dropped in my haste…

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

Tom A, that was hilarious, the donkey in Cooperstown line….

Gotta thank Bravo Nam for the recent Badfinger praise. Going through the collection, that must’ve been in back of my mind because I pulled out old Badfinger CD. Forgot how much I really loved some of those old tunes, including “Day After Day.” I know that one’s kinda cheesy (or maybe not), but lot of good memories come back listening to that one….

Dadgum, being a big fan of old Skynrd, I respect your opinion that the new lineup is still strong. However, nothing would compel me to go see them this week here in Atlanta at Hi-Fi amphitheater when they’re playing with … Big and Rich and Preacher Troy?!!!???? You’ve GOT to be kidding me. That’s just sad. They should be playing a twinbill with Drive-By Truckers or My Morning Jacket or Kings of Leon, not the godawful Big and Rich.

SCOOTS, I have absolutely nothing to do with the 5-second delay or anything else. Sorry, man, but they don’t consult us blog plebes when making such decisions. I just abide, or try to.

But I sure wish our damn site wouldn’t be so slow, period. I mean the site in general. Or is that just my cranky laptop getting worn out? Anyone else think our site is particularly slow, the AJC.com sports site in general? Just curious.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

“Robert-And why if it was great players that got us to the playoffs, didn’t these same players win it all? Why is the season record attributable to the players, but lack of playoff success is only the fault of the manager? That makes no sense whatsoever.”

Easy - Over the course of a season, when the Braves frequantly play overmatched teams, the talent advantage holds out and the managerial blunders can be compensated for over the course of a 162 game season

In the playoffs, where the talent advantage is less, and where you have at most 7 games to make up for a mistake rather than 162 - in that format, the managerial errors are much harder to overcome

Think two armies - if one has an emormous manpower and/or technology advantage, then in an open field battle, that army should win no matter who maneuvers them

But when it comes to near evenly matched armies, then the generalship is the difference maker

This dominance in-season and complete repeated faceflopping in the postseason is EXACTLY the hallmark of an extremely talented team that is led by a dipstick

The Braves are just fine, until such time as a Cox decision determines whether they win or lose

By Robert

October 5, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

All I can ask is this.

How can so many people who obviosuly care about the Braves and their doings more than the average bear so casually and nonchalantly accept the team’s history of wasted talent and wasted opportunity

I guess it’s because everyone just assumes that division titles define greatness and that noone could outdo Cox, tho their is no hard evidence for either

Y’all say I wont change my mind. I told you how you could, and no answer.

I ask you. What evidence would make yall even begin to start to think about considering the idea that Bobby Cox may not be god?

14 blah blah blah

Honestly, y’all really would think it incredible if the Braves played in the Little League WS and won that title 3 times in a row

By ncscoots

October 5, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

Dave, wasn’t railing at YOU, bubba (though you might copy that little rant to your webmaster; he or she might get a clue). The site IS slow, but not intolerably so, especially compared to similar sites. I’m sure your folks are doing their best (it ain’t always the fault of the software…budgets kill speed, too). That, unfortunately, has nothing to do with the business decision made by some weaselly pocket-protected nerd in your company to implement the delay in the aforementioned fashion. Of all the different ways they could have accomplished the mission, someone chose the very worst alternative. Gives the rest of us geeks a bad name…

By Robert

October 5, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

“Pythagoras has been dead a long time. I don’t care what pre-season numbers said;”

Translated - “Dont bother me with facts. I think Bobby Cox is god and if he soils the bed in front of a live tv audience for thirty seven more years running I’d still vote him into the HOF”

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

Robert,

How did you arrive at the conclusion that Cox is the person to blame for the Braves winning only one World Series? It always looked like a lack of offense to me.

By Salty55

October 5, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

Blog is slow when there are tons of posts.

The AJC should take Scoots up on his offer to help. If the five minute lag remains, at least have a means to evaluate posts. If it meets the Talking Heads “…same as it ever was” test, it’s redundant and shouldn’t upload. Cuts volume (way) back while rewarding original thought…and the blog loads faster!

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

Sadly, Robert, it’s been the less-than-clutch performances of several marquee Braves, past and present, that’s had at least as much to do with their postseason fades or collapses than Cox. I mean, unless you think Sheff’s choke a few years ago, Andruw and Chipper’s mostly silent bats for 5-6 year postseason span (before Andruw came alive in the past two postseasons, and Chipper had the big series, or game, vs. Chicago a few years back), Glavine’s near-10.00 ERA in his past three postseason starts, etc., somehow is Cox’s fault?

He’s made several postseason mistakes, especially in roster and lineup decisions, but for me, those guys’ underperformance in the postseason was the biggest reasons for the failures for so many years, that and the recent run of great pitching they’ve faced (Arizona with Randy Johnson and Schilling, Chicago when Prior and Wood were healthy for once in their lives, Houston with Oswalt/Clemens/Pettitte).

But hey, if you want to lay it on Cox, I’m sure all those guys would greatly appreciate you absolving them of responsibility. Or maybe he didn’t give them the right pep talk before they went up to bat all those years in the postseason? Talk about toeing the company line … you’re letting dozens of guys off easy and blaming one. If only it were so simple, my man. If only it were so simple.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

you have at most 7 games
Bobby’s regular season record, during the streak, consisted of Bobby winning the best of 3 series and best of 4. Also it consisted of Bobby winning the best of 7 to the best of 18 series against each team during the regular season. So, Bobby, during the run, won the 162 game test, the 3 game test, and the 4 game test and the seasonal 7 to 18 game test. Oh wait… all of that is the player, not Bobby.
Now, flip the calender over and you have October and suddenly Bobby is responsible for Farnsworth blowing a 5 run lead. No longer is the player capable of winning a 7 game series or a 5 game series… All of the sudden, after winning short series, and season series, these same players can’t win another shortened series.

Sorry Robert. You are now 0-200.

By Lew

October 5, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

I still contend that had we won the WS in 91, 92, 96 as well as 95, Robert would still say that wasn’t enough for 14 straight division titles. Just how many titles would have been enough? Even the Yankees never won 14 straight-with any manager.

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

And Robert, to totally dismiss the Mets, Phils, Marlins and Expos/Nationals all those years, not to mention the teams in the West when the Braves won that division, as though they never had any talent, didn’t have any baseball sense, or never spent any money (for the past four seasons, Braves didn’t have highest payroll in the division, let alone the NL) is simply foolish. The East has been mediocre at best in recent years, but not during the entire run, man. Nor the West in the years the Braves won that division.

You need to check some facts, not just keep up with your emotional rants about Cox. Baseball is way more complicated than your simple view of things _ Bobby bad. Braves most talent. All other teams stink in their division….

The Mets had a helluva lot of talent some of those years, and so did the Phils and Marlins and even the Expos. I’ve just got a problem with you dismissing every other team by saying that any idiot could have managed the Braves to win 14 consecutive division titles with the wealth of talent they had. Eighteen rookies last season _ 18 _ and none of the other teams could win the division over the Braves? Check out the money that New York and Philly spent last year. Are they just idiots, too, for not winning the division over the Braves last season?

If only it were as simple as you say, then the Braves could look forward to winning a few World Series titles when Cox is gone.

By Lew

October 5, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

DOB-Amen and Selah. It has been spoken. Time to go listen to something less repetitve and somewhat more soothing. Maybe Mott The Hoople’s “Live Dudes”. That should mellow my harsh. That and a trip to the potato patch. Maybe then I’ll go out and enjoy the mid 50’s weather and all the nice colors.

By Shaun

October 5, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this

How can so many people who obviosuly care about the Braves and their doings more than the average bear so casually and nonchalantly accept the team’s history of wasted talent and wasted opportunity

I guess it’s because everyone just assumes that division titles define greatness and that noone could outdo Cox, tho their is no hard evidence for either

Y’all say I wont change my mind. I told you how you could, and no answer.

I ask you. What evidence would make yall even begin to start to think about considering the idea that Bobby Cox may not be god?

Do you really want to talk about a lack of evidence?

Let’s see, Bobby Cox has led the Braves during an unpresedented run. Sure, they could have won more World Series, but is there any evidence that the blame should lie soley with Bobby Cox as you claim? Baseball is a team game, so why not blame Cox and the players and Schuerholz and the coaches if you’re looking for someone to blame?

It’s hard to find evidence that a manager is great or bad. It’s just hard to measure how much a manager is worth. But, you are the one claiming Cox is a bad manager, so the burden of proof is on you.

All most of us know is that baseball’s a team game. A manager is not a player, but he’s the organizer. I’m sure Cox has made mistakes; he’s not perfect. I know Cox can’t go out and pitch, hit or field. But he’s led the team during and unpresedented run.

The Braves have won 54 percent of their games in 15 of the last 17 seasons under Cox. They’ve failed to win in the post-season except for once, but there’s no reason to believe Cox should be blamed more than any player or the GM.

Seems to be working fine with Cox. Maybe they win more World Series with him, but maybe they don’t even make it to the post-season without him…or they peform worse in the post-season..or maybe it makes no difference. There is no way to know. How about you provide some evidence since you seem to be so sure that Cox is a horrible manager?

I’m not saying Cox is or isn’t a great manager. I just don’t see how another manager would do that much better. And doesn’t Cox deserve the benefit of the doubt since he’s won most of the games he’s managed with the Braves?

By Thomas

October 5, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

Why cant Turner south become FSN Atlanta and broadcast 40 games FSN South 40 games, and TBS 65 games, the other 15 games ESPN, and Fox.

By 10-7-4

October 5, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Well, well—just saw the headline-‘Scientist are planning a “Frankenrabbit” by fusing human & rabbit cells together’. Drunky Clint once tried fusing some cells with a ‘bunny’. I know ‘stalking’ charges were filed, but I’m not quite sure how he avoided jail time.

By Thomas

October 5, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

LOOK AT THE BRAVES PLAYERS PLAYING IN THE PLAYOFF

• SS RAFAEL FURCAL
• CF KENNY LOFTON
• LF GARY SHEFFIELD
• RF JD DREW
• 1B RYAN KLESKO
• 3B RUSSEL BRANYAN
• 2B WILSON BEITEMET
• C ELI MARRERO
• DH JULIO FRANCO

PITCHERS: - SP GREG MADDUX - SP TOM GLAVINE - SP JASON MARQUIS - SP JARET WRIGHT - SP JORGE SOSA - RHP SCOTT LINKENBERG - RHP ROBERTO HERNANDEZ - RHP KYLE FARNSWORTH - CLOSER ADAM WAINWRIGHT

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

Thomas: Interesting idea. As an out-of-state fan, I’d much rather see the Braves create their own station and play all 162 games on it and allow me to purchase a subscription to it for a nice annual fee. In the offseason and non game times they can replay games from as far back as they can go. They could interview players. Hell, I’d even watch the front office guys sit around a desk and yell into a speaker phone during the draft. I’d need a lot of booze though. But I’d make sure I got my money’s worth out of it.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

“He’s made several postseason mistakes, especially in roster and lineup decisions, but for me, those guys’ underperformance in the postseason was the biggest reasons for the failures for so many years”

I contend that if he hadnt made those mistakes, that the team’s talent would have been enough to overcome the inevitable occasional player mistakes - which they also made along the way in 162 game season

And if I hear “14 b;ah blah” one more time I think I will vomit my lunch. The only time 14 in a row would be impressive would be if it were 14 WS titles.

DOB - Looking back on the 90’s Braves, I cant help but think that it WAS just so simple. Whether he made a wrong move, or whether he did not have them mentally ready, that one man stood between the Braves and real glory.

Obviously, I am not going to change anyone’s mind. My own mind could change, if someone could show me a team that didnt win without Cox that then won with him (same team, same year) That’s unlikely to happen. The only example we have was Nixon vs Cox in 1990 which wasnt flattering to Cox, but I admit isnt definitive

I can only go back to this. To stop arguing and put my money where my mouth is. Who wants to bet - you name the amount. I’ll wager you that no Bobby Cox managed Atlanta Braves team will ever agian win a major league baseball World Series title

Back your man or step out of the batter’s box

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

“Translated - “Dont bother me with facts. I think Bobby Cox is god and if he soils the bed in front of a live tv audience for thirty seven more years running I’d still vote him into the HOF”

First of all, anyone soiling the bed for thirty-seven years running deserves to be in the HOF of Ripley’s Believe it or not. That was very funny. :)

Second, I believe in the one true God expressed in the ministry of Jesus Christ, so Bobby doesn’t fit the definition of God.

Thirdly, you casually ignore my argument by focusing on one statement at the beginning. Translation: you are so blinded by your presuppositions that you refuse to acknowledge anything to the contrary of your argument. What you’re telling me is that all of the postseason choke jobs of the players, all of the injuries, being forced to maintain the streak while payroll was slashed after the sale to TW, all of these should not be mitigating factors in the manner of Robert, God’s gift to managerial knowledge, vs. Bobby Cox, the obviously inept man wearing Depends in the Braves’ dugout. Spare me.

I’m tired to responding to Robert’s prejudices, so let’s talk about something that won’t cause an argument.

So, what’d ya’ll think of Bill Clinton’s tirade with Chris Wallace on Fox News? lol

DOB, didn’t get a chance to thank you for the great blog this year. Keep up the good work!

By Thomas

October 5, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

PITCHERS:

• SP GREG MADDUX
• SP TOM GLAVINE
• SP JASON MARQUIS
• SP JARET WRIGHT
• SP JORGE SOSA
• RHP SCOTT LINKENBERG
• RHP ROBERTO HERNANDEZ
• RHP KYLE FARNSWORTH
• CLOSER ADAM WAINWRIGHT

By BB FAN

October 5, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Your assessment that Joe Torre has won 4 rings in 5 years is wrong.

Your man Torre has won 4 rings in the 10 years he has been manager with the Yankees but has had an unlimited payroll. He did not win any rings in 15 other seasons as manager of the Mets, Braves and Cardinals. In fact, I believe he only has one division title in those 15 other years (1982 with Atlanta).

Torre is a great manager but a monkey could have managed those Yankee teams to rings. In fact he should have a lot more rings than just 4. He has had an unlimited payroll with the Yankees for 10 years and he “only” has four rings! Those Yankee teams talented than Cox has had with the Braves.

Bobby Cox is a great manager. Yes he has been guilty of some bone-head decisions over the years but so hasn’t Torre and every other manager in baseball. They are only human.

By Beachcomber

October 5, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

Tenn Paul - any way we could get you a job with Time Warner? Your idea makes way too much sense. I could watch Marquis grissom caught that ball in left center 365 times a year - Sid’s slide too!

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Translation: I think Bobby Cox is god

I have yet to see anyone say anything that would be remotely close to implying that level of sentiment for any person affiliated with the Braves. The only thing I can figure is, somebody’s jealous.
Is Robert really Tony LaRussa?

By Thomas

October 5, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

TenesseePaul I hope they could make something like the Yes Network that plays around 145 games asociated with my 9, the other 15 games are for ESPN and Fox. Maybe the Braves make something like BBG, Braves Broadcasting Games.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

And if I hear “14 b;ah blah” one more time I think I will vomit my lunch
14 in row Robert. No other team, no other manager in the history of sports has done that.

Carefull now, make sure you wipe off the chin. That stuff can really stink if you don’t get it all up.

By Thomas

October 5, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

or BBS Braves Broadcasting System

By hk

October 5, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

… I watched the last TBS broadcast last week and listened to radio as well … listened a little more closely, thinking that it might be the last we’d ever hear of some of these guys … when TBS tried that MLB experiment a couple of years ago, Don developed the habit of talking way to much about stuff of little interest to Braves fans, never quite got over it …

… but his last broadcast was really good … over several innings, he gave a wonderful analysis of why he thought things had shifted to so much relief pitching over the last 40 years, stuff I had never heard before from anyone … wish I could remember what he said, but the thing that stood out was that he thought in the back of their minds manangers were actually heavily influenced by the media in their late inning decision making … he talked about the subtle pressures of being continually second guessed, all season long, both the by newspapers and especially the announcers in the press box … he described in detail through the years how first it was relievers only, then came the setup man, then middle relievers, and examples of exactly how it happened …

… he ended saying something like “they’ll probabably ban me from the baseball booth forever for saying all this” … the thought crossed my mind at that instant that maybe this was his last game with the Braves …

… good guy, I’ll miss him a well …

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

Lew _ fantastic photos of Vermont in fall. I’m jealous.

Mott the Hoople _ now there’s a band we can agree on.

By the way, Lew, Grinch, TommyB (I’d say Georgetown, but I think he’s already been converted), all rock- and blues- guys and girls _ I’ll guarantee you if you get any Black Keys CD, you’ll agree with me they’re the most underrated and (possibly you’ll agree with this) best band to emerge in the past 5-6 years or however long they’ve been around. Go guy their music.

OK, me and the Black Keys _ I’m becoming as repetitive as Robert with the Cox rants. I’ll stop.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

My own mind could change, if someone could show me a team that didnt win without Cox that then won with him (same team, same year)

That’s the most asinine, ludicrous statement I’ve ever read.

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

BB Fan:

Thanks for the insight. I like Joe Torre, although I HATE the Stankees. You have a point. Give Bobby Cox a $200 million payroll ten years in a row, subtract a handful of boneheaded plays, and you will have more than 1 ring.

Ultimately, this is a moot point. Robert has his opinion, which he expresses clearly, and we have ours. It doesn’t really matter who is right or wrong here. Bobby is the manager, and the Braves are our team. Unless you want to go root for the Stankees or the Mutts, then relax and support what will be a return to dominance in 2007!

Now, if only I could watch it…Stinkin’ Time Warner people!!

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

BB Fan:

Thanks for the insight. I like Joe Torre, although I HATE the Stankees. You have a point. Give Bobby Cox a $200 million payroll ten years in a row, subtract a handful of boneheaded plays, and you will have more than 1 ring.

Ultimately, this is a moot point. Robert has his opinion, which he expresses clearly, and we have ours. It doesn’t really matter who is right or wrong here. Bobby is the manager, and the Braves are our team. Unless you want to go root for the Stankees or the Mutts, then relax and support what will be a return to dominance in 2007!

Now, if only I could watch it…Stinkin’ Time Warner people!!

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

10Paul:

ROFLMBO!!

Gotta go for now, everyone have a great day!

By Matthew

October 5, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

10Paul:

ROFLMBO!!

Gotta go for now, everyone have a great day!

By Mets Stink

October 5, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

The fact that the Braves have only 1 World Championship in 14 years is all Bobby Cox’s fault. Joe Torre would have never started future hall of famers Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine in all those post season games they lost. Surely he wouldn’t have played Gary Sheffield during his choke job a few years ago. Torre would have known that Chipper and Andruw would fall short more often than not.

Seriously, Cox probably did lose a game or two for the Braves in the post season, but EVERY manager loses games for his team. I’ll give it to you Robert, maybe Cox’s decisions cost the Braves two, maybe three championships over the years. The other 11 can be placed on the players.

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

meant to say “buy” their music.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 5, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

this journalist has been involved in matters of high finance and has been away from the blog. jimmy smith has been shopping for a watermelon. now, the blog is very confusing with this talk of popeye, pythagoreus, and bobby cox. and what of uh, chipper? is he a huntin’? and is he wearing red goose boots with a rounded toe? and what of bob and his syrupy tuna? and what of the pitiful voices crying to be heard on this blog but only being ignored? and now, don sutton … the old hall of famer would have left at anytime if the dodgers had said come on. that was apparent last year. besides, ron gant is a former player and he can you know, replace, don, if, you know, they need another player in the booth. now, canned hams … horse cartilage tendons, hooves - produce a gelatine, used in products such as Jell-O, camera film, and canned ham gel. try that with syrup journalist bob. and what of the canned hams sent to anne cox chambers? do we have a new columnist to announce?

By Thomas

October 5, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Tell me how many rookies, or sophmores are the yankees playing today, none. The Yankees have a great player in Melky Cabrera, if he were in the Braves and theyd have lets say gary sheffield in the last year of his contract, the braves let sheffield go, and stay with Melky, instead the yankees give sheffield him a 20 million contract, and trade melky. Joe Torre would have died in florida this year if he were manager, Bobby may have led them to the playoff. On Tuesday Chien Ming Wang had retired 17 in a row throwing only 93 pitches in the 6th inning with one out. Grant Ganderson was coming up, and Torre takes out Wang and brings the lefty specialist Myers, what happens, Granderson had a homer, and made another run.

By BB FAN

October 5, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this

Matthew,

I like Torre as a manager too. I think he’s one of the best of all time. However, he has had the advantage of an unlimited payroll. But I was kidding about the monkey being able to manage those teams. Torre has done a great job.

People don’t realize that only 1 out of 30 teams can win the WS ring every year. JUST 1! ANd it takes talent, chemistry, a good manager as well as luck. A team has to have everything go right for them.

The White Sox are the perfect example. Last year, they won the WS with pretty much the same team as they had this year. In fact, they were beeter on paper because they added Vazquez and Thome to the mix. They did not even make the playoffs this year.

That is just how it goes in baseball. It’s can be unpredictable. Now of course I still agree with teams trying to buy the WS though. Because as much as I realize that a team with a low payroll can win the WS, it makes it easier with a $100-200 million payroll.

By BB FAN

October 5, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

That was supposed to be “That is just how it goes in baseball. It’s can be unpredictable. Now of course I still don’t agree with teams trying to buy the WS though.”

By Robert

October 5, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

“14 in row Robert. No other team, no other manager in the history of sports has done that.”

BULL-hockey - depends how you define it

examples - Syracuse lacrosse 20-some seasons made it to Division I final four

UNC women’s soccer same thing

FSU football - how many consecutive seasons finished in top ten?

Cousin Joe’s Beer and Pretzel softball team in East Comer Alabama - 22 straight seasons of winning the beer guzzling while playing softball division title for LA (lower Alabama)

So depends how you define things. How broad and general do you want to get to include your man

It’s like the HOF arguement that “so and so is the only player with a combination of X hr’s, y rbi’s z hit by pitches, q ex girlfriends and c number of episodes of jock itch. It’s MEANINGLESS

Talk CHAMPIONSHIPS my friends. ONE, and thirteen wasted golden opportunities

By Robert

October 5, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

” being forced to maintain the streak “

THERE’s the problem - this artifically defined as great streak.

14 blah blah.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

“That’s the most asinine, ludicrous statement I’ve ever read. “

You’ve obviosuly never read a Cox quote in the AJC :P

By Scalp 'em Braves

October 5, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

My last shot at managing a baseball team was 10 years ago, with my kid’s little league team. My biggest worries were whether the parent responsible for bringing the aftergame snacks would come through, and making sure Little Johnny’s a***** dad didn’t make the umpires so mad from his incessant criticism (hey, maybe that was Robert) of every call that he would start taking it out on the kids with bad calls. I really don’t think my managerial experience qualifies me to criticize BC or any other MLB manager, and I doubt that any naysayers here continually railing against Cox are qualified either.

It’s ok, fine, acceptable, and expected, that we as baseball fans have opinions. Mine is that Cox has done a fine job, both as GM and manager, since he came to Atlanta this time around. The former go round wasn’t so good, but that was another era. I don’t care what Chuck Tanner says, he didn’t get this club to the point of being a winner and then graciously step aside for BC to take over in the dugout. Cox was busy beefing up the farm system, and stocking the team with talent that Tanner did very little with. The truth is that BC got tired of Tanner screwing up and misusing the talent and kicked him out of the dugout and into retirement.

That’s my opinion, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to argue until the cows come home about it. Nobody’s going to fire BC for the coming season, so give it up dude.

By Thomas

October 5, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Joel Zumaya is awesome 103mph, and Justin Verlander 101mph. Both very young maybe 1 day the Braves could sign them.

By Thomas

October 5, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

o thats right the Yankees will offer them 25 million per year contract withe their 300 million payroll.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

Back again. Robert, in regards to your question to me about Cox’s postgame comments (and that’s all I’ll adress; don’t want to get killed here): “…Other than it being almost inconcievable that someone could be that stupid and still be able to function outside a nursing home…” No, that’s the only basis I was using. :-)

DOB, in regard to your 1:33 post; I think I know what happened to that missing 1 you lost in that stat yesterday. It got undeservedly added to someone’s IQ to make it 3 digits. (rim shot)

Journalist Smith: Hooves and syrup! The new official food; love it! “What flavor syrup would you like on your hooves?”

Scoots: It shouldn’t be budget constraints involving the tech problem. The chick that owns Cox Enterprises was on the Forbes billionaire list the other day. This fishwrap can’t cost THAT much to operate. DOB, you feel overpaid and underworked? :-)

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

It’s like the HOF arguement that “so and so is the only player with a combination of X hr’s, y rbi’s z hit by pitches… It’s MEANINGLESS

So every hall of famer with only one ring or less contributed nothing but meaninglessness? Do you even understand baseball?

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Dave O, Is the BK CD you’re recommending Chulahoma?

I’ve already been through the others on iTunes and grabbed a mess of tunes.

My hands down favorite so far is still “I’ll Be Your Man.” #2 is “10 AM Automatic”. Tentatively hoping to make Variety show.

By Scalp 'em Braves

October 5, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Good point Tenn Paul. Ernie Banks’ career was a complete waste. Ditto for The Splendid Splinter and Stan the Man.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

Way to go TIGERS…!

By BB FAN

October 5, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

One other thing that gets overlooked is the Braves have never had a great bullpen. It has always been pieced together. It hasn’t just been the last 4 or 5 years since AOL took over either. It was like that in the Ted Turner years as well.

You take the Yankees bullpen: money is spent on it every year to improve it.

It’s difficault to win without a bullpen. Even when the Braves got good years out of Wohlers, Rocker and Smoltz, the rest of the bullpen was pieced together. And when did Smoltz become the closer, the starting picthing was not replenished.

I think the Braves have done a good job for what they have had over the years. Yes, they should have won in 1991 and 1996 but that’s baseball.

By tyyosh

October 5, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Can you provide some specific examples to back your position, examples that would demonstrate to the analytical basis for your belief?

To be balanced, you would need to match that list up against other factors that may have contributed to losses, such as a bad bullpen (my vote for biggest recurring problem), Nixon’s drug problem, Maddux getting hit on the leg in 1993, the umpire interfering with Dye in 1996 WS, Chipper’s bad series in 1997, the ascent of a particular core group of Yankees, etc. You would also need to match the negatives against the things that went well in the playoffs. For example, games 6 and 7 in 1991 playoffs, Game 7 in 1992, both series in 1995, wipeouts of opponents in division series, etc.

As you probably know, the Braves since 1995 are 10-10 in postseason series while the Yankees are 16-7 (if my manual count is right). So the Braves have lost only 3 more series during that time. Since 2001, the Braves are 1-5 and the Yankees are 3-5. Are you positive that Torre is the answer?

By BravesFaninRockies

October 5, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

Hi folks,

Joe Torre’s obviously a saint of a guy but overrated as a manager. I watched him overwork Brave (and Cardinal) bullpens repeatedly — and lose because of it. What has made him a HOF manager is that for the past decade he was fortunate enough to have the greatest big-game relief pitcher of all time on his roster. Without The (until this year) Indestructible Mariano Rivera, how many WS would the Yankees have won?

Other than ‘96 of course. Curse you Jim Leyritz!!

By bruce

October 5, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

Dave, Can you repeat for me or find a couple of walk stats… percentage of no out and one out walks that score, excluding intentional walks.

And, if possible, percentage of the same walks in and after the seventh inning that are tying or winning runs.

It felt like Roger/Bobby were too tolerant of relief pitcher walks, yet I have confidence they know what they are doing. They probably haved the above stats memorized.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

“So every hall of famer with only one ring or less contributed nothing but meaninglessness? Do you even understand baseball?”

No,Paul. I mean that if you want to, you can create some set of parameters that only your particular player or manager of choice and a few select others meet, that make your guy look very special.

People use this kind of arguement to justify their campaigns to get marginal players elected to the HOF

For EXAMPLE - Suppose I want to campaign for Ruben Sierra to be in the HOF. Well, I can point out that the only other players ever to have a combination of over 2000 hits, over 300 home runs, over 1300 rbis, over 58 triples, and over 140 stolen bases are Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hankl Aaron, and Mike Schmidt.

In other words, I define greatness by selecting a set of criteria that suit my purposes

And yet, no matter I try and artifically define it, Ruben Sierra doesnt belong on the list with the other guys, and isnt a worthy HOFer

In lauding Cox for “14 blah blah” y’all are doing exactly what I just did in the Sierra example.

This is truly hopeless. Y’all are so sold on how terrible those recent Braves teams were and how noone but Dipstick the Miracle Worker couldve had them finish anywhere but the cellar that it’s impossible to start the arguement

Once y’all are able to take the stand that it is POSSIBLE that Cox is not good, then a discussion can begin about whether he is or not that might could help someone form an opinion or maybe even change a mind

As long as anything I say is poo pooed by shouts of “14 blah blah”

How many teams did the Braves have to be better than to win “14 blah blah”?

Four. So, in THEORY, they could have been the 26th best team in baseball in each of those years, and still have won 14 blah blah

That is why “14 blah blah” in and of itself, without CONTEXT, does not define greatness

I have repeated this messgae in a bunch of ways at a bunch of times, hoping (against hope, I guess) that it would somehow get THRU

It’s all good tho - Worship the man if you will

My offer of a bet remains open. And it will, even if someday Cox is managing the ‘27 Yankees and has a 3-0 WS lead over the ‘62 Mets. I’ll take the Mets and win every time

By berigan

October 5, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this

Ryan Klesko, after missing 152 games this year, is on the Padres roster, and got a single pinch hitting today!

By Robert

October 5, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

“Are you positive that Torre is the answer?”

No

But I am positive that Cox is NOT the answer. (unless the question is “Who is that donkey in the Braves dugout?”

By Lew

October 5, 2006 06:25 PM | Link to this

DOB-If you can sit there and tell me I have to get a Black Keys cd after extolling the virtues of Mott, then I guess I better go on Amazon and buy one. Which would you reccomend? Robert-I didn’t know Ruben Sierra looked so good.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 06:26 PM | Link to this

I just happend to be in my favorite dictionary and look what happened to be on the page.

troll

1 |trōl| noun a mythical, cave-dwelling being depicted in folklore as either a giant or a dwarf, typically having a very ugly appearance. ORIGIN from Old Norse and Swedish troll, Danish trold; adopted into English from Scandinavian in the mid 19th cent.troll

2 verb [ intrans. ] 1 fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat : we trolled for mackerel. • search for something : a group of companies trolling for partnership opportunities. 2 [ trans. ] sing (something) in a happy and carefree way : troll the ancient Yuletide carol. 3 [ trans. ] informal Computing send (an e-mail message or posting on the Internet) intended to provoke a response from the reader by containing errors. 4 [with adverbial of direction ] chiefly Brit. walk; stroll : we all trolled into town.

noun 1 the action of trolling for fish. • a line or bait used in such fishing. 2 informal Computing an e-mail message or posting on the Internet intended to provoke an indignant response in the reader.

Personally, I like the first definition. There’s something here for everybody.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 5, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

dob has lifted his lamp beside the golden door - and one never knows who will drop in. now, baseball … will tom glavine be in playoff readiness? and what is playoff readiness for tom glavine? this journalist remembers the esteemed left-hander in 2002. will he pitch that way for the mets? we shall see. now, canned ham gel … a fine pomade. and journalist bob must try pc-cillin to avoid such nastiness as trojan horses. this journalist will now talk pie. if bobby cox were invited to robert’s home for pie - what pie would robert serve? now, transition once more … toes are not to be trifled with.

By Robert

October 5, 2006 07:08 PM | Link to this

Let’s change the subject.

Which young catcher would you rather have?

McCann or Mauer? (and why)

Personally I think you cant lose either way. For real baseball, I’d take McCann because of his better long term power potential. For Fantasy baseball, I take Mauer because of the steals at catcher

By tyyosh

October 5, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this

But I am positive that Cox is NOT the answer. (unless the question is “Who is that donkey in the Braves dugout?”

Can you provide specifics to bolster your point? Thank you

By Robert

October 5, 2006 07:13 PM | Link to this

“Robert-I didn’t know Ruben Sierra looked so good.”

On paper, with only that information, he sure does look good doesnt he

But then, in CONTEXT, when you look beyond what the person touting him wants you to see

and there we’d go back to the merry-go-round

Mauer vs McCann guys

By Lew

October 5, 2006 07:24 PM | Link to this

Robert-Don’t worry-I wouldn’t vote to put Sierra in the HOF. Chili Davis and Willie McGee are in the same category. They look decent on paper, but are still a bit short on the HOF credentials.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

TommyB, what if a large, ugly, cave-dwelling creature briskly walked into town for the purpose of presenting a new blogging idea as a business venture while trailing a baited hook and singing a yuletide carol? That’s MY favorite definition of troll. :-)

Robert, props on the change of subject. I’d love to be able to offer an intelligent response to your query, but I haven’t seen Mauer play yet.

Journalist Bob, I have a hand-carved Trojan Horse on my coffee table next to in illustrated copy of The Illiad. It has never done a single thing to bother my computer. What have you done to make this one so angry?

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this

OK, Roberto. I’ll also take McCann and here’s why.

In 23 fewer ABs, McCann has:

-16 more RBIs

-Slugging % of .578 to Mauer’s .486

-24 HRs to Mauer’s 12

-34 Doubles to Mauer’s 26 (Mauer has 4 Triples to McCann’s 0)

-Only 3 more Ks than Mauer (again with 23 fewer ABs)

-Half the Ground Into Double Plays

-Higher BA (.334 to Mauer’s .333)

Both are clearly Rookie Superstars.

But what kind of gamecalling does Mauer bring to compare with McCann’s seasoned veteran-level stuff?

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 07:55 PM | Link to this

Hang on there Green One… Let’s not practice Revisionism. We all know that grinches live in caves high ATOP MOUNTAINS.

Nice try, though.

And if you’re interested in seeing Mauer, better hurry. You may have just one more chance this year. (IHope IHope IHope)

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 08:06 PM | Link to this

Dave O, and fellow celluloid fanatics…

Last night whilst rain poured in Yankee Stadium, I threw in the top entry in my small stack of Netflix DVDs. I wish to suggest you put it on your list for post World Series. That is if this review interests you.

Think “The Good, The Bad, The Ugly” kind of impact for its time, transferred to 2005.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 08:31 PM | Link to this

OK, Grinchy. My bad. I “imagined” you said “under the bridge.” Just re-read and it now it’s gone entirely.

I guess I’ll stop celebrating the Tigers and Cards wins and smell some coffee (notice I didn’t say I would drink any).

I’ve been sitting here with the stereo at near full-blast featuring “rowdy” tunes from the Black Keys, Paul Revere & The Raiders, Hendrix, and Sly & the Family Stone. Chased the wife through the downstairs, up the stairs, back down, and now she’s escaped to Publix after making coffee for me. The kids aren’t fazed by the music (nor amplitude). The dog and cats are probably still running. I have my eye out for headlights coming up the drive and once I see them, I’ll ease off the volume until she gets in and puts her keys down. Then… I think her keys will discreetly find their way into the oven (it’s off, thank you very much). Then up goes the volume once more…. Aahhh, I just love postseason baseball when your teams are winning….

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 08:41 PM | Link to this

Do you even understand baseball?”

No,Paul

Just as I thought.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 08:48 PM | Link to this

Robert: Change of subject

PRAISE THE LORD ALMIGHTY!
That’s all we ask.

As to your question, I saw Mauer play in Elizabethton in the minors. He seemed to always get a hit. It was amazing. Personally, I’d pick McCann. Something about his approach I like. But it’s a no-lose situation. I appreciate McCann’s use of the whole field. He’s low Ks and the power. The high OPS (between the two) isn’t bad either.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 08:49 PM | Link to this

Robert changed the subject… now I’ve vomited up my lunch. But I mean that in the best possible way you could take it.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 09:01 PM | Link to this

That’s an image I could do without… Let’s hopethere was ceramic nearby.

Robert… I’m waiting on your input on Mauer’s game calling….

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 09:29 PM | Link to this

Back again. Tommy, I was not in any way comparing Trolls to Grinches, thank you very much (we’re much better looking); I was simply combinig all your definitions into one fantastic creature. BTW, don’t know if you like hockey but the Thrashers/Lightning game on TS is pretty good (2-2 with about 7 minutes left in the third).

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 09:34 PM | Link to this

I do, but so far, I can only get into it LIVE. Maybe after BB withdrawal, and a decent Thrasher record, I’ll be snookered into TV hockey.

By brian

October 5, 2006 09:35 PM | Link to this

Got to keep Skip and Pete on TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I was on JV basketball, I remember Pete coming to our varsity basketball games. I can remember keeping stats along with a few team mates during the game for the team and Pete was amazing. He could tell us how many points, rebounds, assists each player had at anytime off the top of his head.

Pete and Skip give valuable insight to Braves games (look at the difference on other networks and ask Gant how hard it is). They are a part of the whole Braves experience. They make me feel like I am at the game even though I am in North Carolina. Thanks guys!

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 09:38 PM | Link to this

PS - I could never watch something else when the MLB posteason is afoot.

I’m just flat out nuts, I guess.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 10:01 PM | Link to this

MAN, what a heartbreaker. Lost 3-2 in the shootout. That was a heck of a close game. Thashers are missing some offense, but are looking better balanced. I’ll just be honest; if the Braves aren’t playing I’ve got to have a compelling storyline to watch other teams in the PS and I don’t see one so far. I mean, I’d watch it over Will and Grace, but not the Thrashers.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 10:15 PM | Link to this

That movie you recommended looks right up my alley. I wonder how I missed it? Blood Meridian is one of my favorite novels.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 10:33 PM | Link to this

Fixin to get back to work. Metropolitan man, you guys are up 4-0 as I write this. I didn’t get done what I needed to so I didn’t even leave the house. I was hoping to be able to photograph you with the “Glavine face,” but it looks like I would’ve missed out on that. Good luck. Maybe we’ll do a Thrashers/Rangers game or something.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 10:33 PM | Link to this

T’isn’t for the squeamish. It is one amazing movie.

If the Dodgers don’t score during this at bat, am going to chase the wife again and sign off.

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 10:33 PM | Link to this

TommyB, the new Black Keys CD one is “Magic Potion.” They released the equally outstanding “Chulahoma” last spring, and it’s all covers of Junior Kimbrough, hard blues with rockin’ edge. The new one is more rock, their stuff. But literally every CD they’ve recorded (it’s five now, I think) is outstanding, at least everything I’ve bought.

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 10:35 PM | Link to this

TommyB, see if you can download stuff off their “Rubber Factor” CD. Mind-blowing stuff.

By David O'Brien

October 5, 2006 10:36 PM | Link to this

Oops, typo. That’s “Rubber Factory,” not Factor.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 10:40 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah, Magic Potion is one I’ve already ravaged. “Your Touch” and “Strange Desire” are two that come to mind. I’ve probably grabbed a dozen or so tunes that are getting well worn now. Something about ‘em reminds me of very early Kinks sometimes. Just some little thing.

I think I’ve grabbed stuff from every CD, including that “Split” cd with Six Parts Seven.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 10:42 PM | Link to this

Headline at SportsPickle.com: “Fat guy in Under Armor going to protect this Waffle House.” Hee-hee! It is amazing how many out of shape people wear that stuff without realizing they look terrible.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 10:43 PM | Link to this

Dodgers didn’t score in the 7th and are now down 4-0. But their new pitcher (Taiwanese guy) was pretty danged good through 4 innings. Back off two Tommy Johns and previous stint as reliever.

Signing off. Night all.

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 10:44 PM | Link to this

So DOB, what do think about the Black Keys? Would you recommend buying one of their cd’s? :-)

By The Grinch

October 5, 2006 10:48 PM | Link to this

Later, dude. You wouldn’t think something made in Taiwan would make it through 4 innings, huh? :-)

By flbravesgirl

October 5, 2006 10:53 PM | Link to this

Trolls, huh? One of them posted on Bisher’s column using jimmy’s name.

Unfortunately, I’ve barely seen Mauer play, but you know I’d pick Mac over anybody.;-)

Grinch, your home sounds very interesting. Gargoyles, gothic, Egyptian, Trojan horses, the garden… When are you hosting the Blog Tour of Homes?

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 10:54 PM | Link to this

Hey, he’s from the same town and same high school (same time) as Chien Min Wong. What are the odds that both guys would be pitching in the MLB playoffs at the same time… and in the same city? ?

Wong, as you surely know, is the true Ace on the Yanks staff.

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

Kuo is the guy’s name (starting pitcher for the Dodgers tonight… aka Braves/Red Sox West).

By TommyB

October 5, 2006 10:59 PM | Link to this

Hi FlBravesGirl,

Can you make TrollHouse Cookies?

Hey — Betemit just knocked one out! It’s 4-1 now.

By flbravesgirl

October 5, 2006 11:24 PM | Link to this

No Trollhouse cookies, TommyB, I don’t want to encourage any trolls to hang around. Baking is a specialty of mine though.

By TennesseePaul

October 5, 2006 11:38 PM | Link to this

Dodgers suck. That’s all there is to it. They have zero pitching. Even worse than the Mets. And Waaaay to many short stops.

By David O'Brien

October 6, 2006 12:07 AM | Link to this

I hoped for S.D-L.A. NLCS for obvious reasons (weather, Southern Cal, scenery, etc) and I’m going to get NY-St. Louis. There’s no justice for your correspondent. Instead of staying at the Marriott Marina in downtown S. Diego, I’ll be staying in the rat-trap Laguardia Sheraton and Laguardia Courtyard, since the rates in Manhattan were about $400 and higher per night….

Betemit and Furcal let two runs in with their poor defensive plays in that one inning, then Betemit gets his back with the bomb he hit out….

Anyway,

TommyB, I saw that flick at Blockbuster or read a review somewhere. Sounded outstanding; glad to hear it is. I just rented “The Proposition” (spaghetti-western set in outback, came out about six months ago to rave reviews, but not big release because no american star power; Nick Cave wrote it, the big draw for me since I’m a huge fan of the Aussie songwriter. His first screenplay).

The four Black Keys CDs I have, and I can’t recommend them in any order because they’re all terrific, but I’d probably get the first two of them first:

1. The Big Come Up (released in 2002)

2. Rubber Factory

3. Chulahoma (Junior Kimbrough gut-bucket blues covers)

4. Magic Potion (the newest one)

By David O'Brien

October 6, 2006 12:11 AM | Link to this

TennPaul _ ain’t that the truth about the Dodgers and their shortstops? My god, they’re like the Hawks with forwards.

Lugo at first is worse than Sheff at first. Far, far worse….

Hey, you know what the NFL said when they called the lineman in after he stomped on that helmetless opponent with his cleats?”This aggression will not stand, man.”

The big lineman will abide and serve his five-game suspension.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 6, 2006 01:06 AM | Link to this

Boy, if everyone on this blog hasn’t changed their tune about the Dodgers-Mets series. Of course, no credit to the Mets; just a lot of “Dodgers suck” posts.

Well, folks, the Mets are good. They will get to the World Series, and they might even win it if the Tigers can somehow upset the Yankees.

Cardinals fans deserve another round, DOB. Try to be happy for them while you’re enduring your crappy accommodations in the Big Apple.

And watch Woody Allen’s “Manhattan” before your flight to LaGuardia. Maybe the glow will last a while.

By bill

October 6, 2006 01:09 AM | Link to this

Although I’ll miss Don, he is not a saint. Braves radio returned one time too early, and Don was saying:”then keep the hell out of it!” Don Sutton is the bastard stepchild of Braves Radio. Odd man out. Bye Don.

By billmelater

October 6, 2006 01:12 AM | Link to this

Sutton is a blowhard egomaniac. goodbye, goodluck goodriddance

By The Grinch

October 6, 2006 01:29 AM | Link to this

Hey, Y’all. FLBgirl, I kind of signed off right after my last post; sorry. Yes, my place is nothing if not interesting. Sometimes a little TOO interesting; I’ve thought once or twice about getting TAPS out here but didn’t really want the publicity. I DO have the occasional booksigning here, though. Next one’s OCT. 29th for Jeff Field’s “A Cry of Angels.” Holla if you’re in the area; I may even let you bring cake. :-) And what’s wrong with Trolls?

DOB, when I checked on the link Tommy provided “The Proposition” was what turned up. Are Y’all not talking about the same film? That really sucks you gotta trade SD for NY. You oughtta try talking the AJC into giving you a bigger expense account or something, at least. Yeah, I know; good luck with all that, huh? At least you’re getting to travel; I haven’t been out of state in about two years. Sleepy time; g’night, All.

By Tomahawkin

October 6, 2006 02:59 AM | Link to this

From da last blog…Someone was bashing Delgado 4 not standing up to the national anthem

Dude I Love Delgado 4 Protesting The worst President and his Clowns beolw him, Put my a-s-s on TV and Let me be an athlete, and I would Call his a-s-s out on TV, Gawd I wish pac was still alive…Becuz we both say F-c-k Da B.U.S.H….

You braves Fans I’m gonna miss sutton…Unlike most of y’all, and I’m not trying to sound cocky but I love hearing sutton’s insights, I’d always thought he’d be our next pitching coach… Sutton taught me a couple of things about pitching when I was in High school…

By Tomahawkin

October 6, 2006 03:03 AM | Link to this

Tom. A Hawk where did You get Ur name from, I got mines from that old Braves license tag that said Tomahawkin I’ll catch U’s guys later

By Tomahawkin

October 6, 2006 03:11 AM | Link to this

D.O.B. What’s Ur opinion about Sutton…? I loved him, I think that a lot of the so called braves fans who bash him are only bandwagoners… They have not listened to him since day 1…I learned a lot from him when I was playing little league baseball 10 yars ago in Fayetteville Jaw-Guh…Holla…

By TommyB

October 6, 2006 07:17 AM | Link to this

Grinch, DOB, et.al… Yes, the movie I was talking about IS “The Proposition” (2005) with Guy Pierce. Like Spaghetti-Western reborn (but in the Outback).

Dave… Have you also checked out these Black Keys CDs?

-Thickfreakness

-Split: The Six Parts Seven/The Black Keys

Good tunes to be had on these as well…

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 08:06 AM | Link to this

I contend that if [Bobby Cox] hadnt made those mistakes, that the team’s talent would have been enough to overcome the inevitable occasional player mistakes - which they also made along the way in 162 game season

Okay, so the players are allowed to make mistakes without blame but the manager is not? How about blaming the lack of more World Series championships on the inevitable occassional player mistakes? Just because every player is likely to make mistakes that means the mistakes didn’t help cost the Braves a few more World Series titles?

It’s just a rediculous argument. Baseball is a team game. The Braves only won one World Series because of the players and the manager and the GM and probably many other factors. It’s rediculous to say Cox cost the Braves a lot of World Series titles without any good reasons. Yes, he deserves some of the blame, but so do the players and Schuerholz and maybe the coaches, etc….and maybe we should blame a little on just plain ol’ bad luck. I’d like to know how you narrowed down the finger-pointing to just Bobby Cox.

With your logic, maybe we should blame the Yankees’ lack of a title since 2001 on Mike Mussina. That’s when he came on board with NY. Yankees haven’t won a World Series since. If anyone says it’s not because of Mussina, show me…see how rediculous your reasoning is.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

Can’t go wrong either way, but I’ll take Mauer. Mauer has consistently put up better numbers in pro ball and he’s younger. Both will have great careers, barring major injury, (Hall of Fame?) but Mauer could be one of the all-time greats. Both are good defensive catchers, also.

Minor league numbers: Mauer - .332 AVG/.407 OBP/.426 SLG/1206 PA McCann - .275 AVG/.334 OBP/.462 SLG/1192 PA

Major league numbers: Mauer .399 AVG/.471 OBP/.526 SLG/1284 PA McCann .317 AVG/.376 OBP/.523 SLG/696 PA

By dadgum

October 6, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this

DOB,,,yeah, can’t fault you for the take on Skynyrd this weekend in Atlanta. I guarantee that Skynyrd alone is still rocking strong. Not sure about the other acts. My take, it is for a great cause so that is why I was kind of tooting that horn a little. Certainly there are other things in Atlanta to do this weekend and spend money on.

Lew, Procal Harum certainly was good. “Conquistador” though is pretty much all I can remember from that band. My ignorance of course. I will check in occasionally to catch some music banter with DOB and crew now that baseball is over. Mets vs. St.Louis won’t get me to the tv. GO DETROIT!!!

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this

Let me make this easier to read

Minor league numbers:

Mauer - .332 AVG/.407 OBP/.426 SLG/1206 PA

McCann - .275 AVG/.334 OBP/.462 SLG/1192 PA

Major league numbers:

Mauer .399 AVG/.471 OBP/.526 SLG/1284 PA

McCann .317 AVG/.376 OBP/.523 SLG/696 PA

By Robert

October 6, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

“Robert… I’m waiting on your input on Mauer’s game calling”

Dont know. He’s never caught me :P

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

My dream would be to see Mauer vs. McCann in a World Series someday soon.

By Matthew

October 6, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this

Shaun:

You mean like, next year? :)

Robert, thanks for changing the subject. I don’t think anyone was bashing you for your opinion; we’re just glad to talk about something other than bashing Bobby Cox nonstop. Personally, and this is not something that a statistic will point out, but I feel that McCann has “it.” Whatever Yogi Berra, Johnny Bench, Calton Fisk, and the other greats had, BMac has it also. You can see it in the way he handles his pitchers and calls the game. I haven’t watched Mauer very much, and he probably will end up being a great player also, but my completely biased vote goes to BMac.

By tyyosh

October 6, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this

I think the Mauer #’s are off (ESPN says lifetime .321, OBP .399, SLG .471). We will really see next year when we have McCann’s 3rd year to compare against Mauer’s year this year. If McCann’s 2006 2nd half is remotely indicative of future production, then definitely McCann.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Dadgum-That has always been Procol’s problem-lack of recognition. Besides Whiter Shade of Pale and Conquistador, no one knows their stuff. Check out “Exotic Birds and Fruit”-a great album. Takes me back to the bygone days of college debauchery.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

My bad. My numbers were off.

Minor league numbers:

Mauer - .332 AVG/.407 OBP/.426 SLG/1206 PA

McCann - .275 AVG/.334 OBP/.462 SLG/1192 PA

Major league numbers:

Mauer .321 AVG/.399 OBP/.471 SLG/1284 PA

McCann .317 AVG/.376 OBP/.523 SLG/696 PA

Again, can’t go wrong with either player, but I think Mauer has an edge. His numbers look a little better throughout their pro careers and he’s younger.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this

Here’s something from ESPN.com written by Baseball Prospectus’s Nate Silver, who earlier this year ranked the 100 most valuable “properties” in baseball:

6. Joe Mauer, C, Minnesota Twins (23)

Mauer suffers from the Felix Hernandez problem: He’s such a special player that there’s nobody to compare him to. Start with catchers who became big-league regulars before they turned 21. That alone is a pretty small group. How many of those guys could hit a little bit? Perhaps Ivan Rodriguez, Ted Simmons, Joe Torre … that’s about it. And how many of those guys were legitimate base-stealing threats? And stood 6-4 and weighed 220 pounds? And played Gold Glove-caliber defense? As Bill James has pointed out, the truly greatest players are often the most unusual. I look at Mauer and think of Rickey Henderson.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 09:29 AM | Link to this

Here’s what Nate Silver had to say about Brian McCann:

40. Brian McCann, C, Atlanta Braves (22)

One of the idiosyncrasies of the prospect shell game is that players who break into the major leagues in midseason are often held in less regard than guys who spend the whole season in the minors — making themselves eligible for the myriad top 10 and top 100 lists that dominate hot stove discussions. McCann, along with the Reds’ Edwin Encarnacion and the Tigers’ Curtis Granderson, qualifies as a player to watch this season. PECOTA projects McCann to develop into a .290 BA, .370 OBP, 25 HR guy within the next several seasons. Given how well the Braves develop young talent, it’s easy to share in that optimism.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 09:35 AM | Link to this

tyyosh,

Looks like we have enough of a sample size of major and minor league plate appearances to say Mauer has the edge (barring injury). Mauer also is younger.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this

Shaun-Actually, McCann is younger than Mauer by almost a full year.

By Rodger

October 6, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

Robert-

Tho’ I’m not Cox’s biggest fan, you’ve got to LET IT GO!!!

This dead horse has been beaten, run over chopped up, and ground into Big Macs! You’re not changing anyones mind, so PLEASE just drop it!

By Rodger

October 6, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

Don,

Thanks for many great years!

When he first came on board, on a part time basis, he drove me crazy because he never shut up! But as he got more comfortable in the booth, Don became a terrific source of knowledge on both how the game was played, and how it should be played. A southern gentleman with a smooth voice, I have really enjoyed listening to him as much as any announcer in sports. Simpson can be irritating to listen to, and his “player insight” came from someone who was a…er, what was he? And please don’t get me started on Chip-he often sounds like he’s not watching the same game as everyone else! This is a HUGE mistake for the Braves organization (not Fox or Turner South-HELLO?), and I wish Don the best wherever he may end up.

BTW, I imagine all the Skip bashing is by people who only joined the bandwagon after the Braves started winning. Skip would be the ONLY entertainment through many dark, losing seasons. Thanks, Skip!

By The Grinch

October 6, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

One comment before I head to the chiropractor. The one, ONE thing (besides defense) UGA had to count on this year was our field gol kicker who never misses (even from 50+). Now he feels a “pop” in practice trying a new method of onside kicking and is out for the season. This just ain’t gonna be our year.

By Rodger

October 6, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

dadgum,

recently saw a VH1 special with Skynyrd, 3 doors down, and wouldya believe, Hank Jr. Awesome, baby! BTW-how OLD is Ricky Medlock? Good grief!

By The Grinch

October 6, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

Rodger, Robert dropped it yesterday afternoon. Shaun just brought it back up (then I think he caught up on yesterday’s posts and switched to the new subject Robert brought up: Mauer vs. McCann). Later, All.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this

Lew,

Sorry. My carelessness strikes again. McCann is younger. But I’d still take Mauer.

McCann will post the better power numbers, but Mauer will get on base more, hit for a higher average and put up decent power numbers.

By NLCHAMPS

October 6, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

Again your predictions are inaccurate. Several posts predicted that the Mets would lose once they faced “Superior” pitching in the playoffs. Glavine looked great last night and the Mets keep on rolling toward the World Series.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this

Shaun-I don’t expect McCann to hit .333 on an annual basis, but I think we’re solid and just fine with him behind the plate for some years to come. Maybe Maurer is better-maybe not. It’s really too early to tell on either one. I wonder if anyone really thought McCann would hit like he has this season. I thought he would be a good .280 or so hitter, but I never expected .333. The thing is he just kept getting better. The kid has one of the sweetest swings I’ve ever seen. Maybe we need Daddy McCann as a hitting instructor-maybe TP’s assistant or something.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

Lew,

I agree. I’m happy that McCann is here. And McCann is an Atlanta native which may increase the chances of a hometown discount when it comes time to pay him the big bucks. Coincidentally, Mauer is a Minnesota native, so the Twins may have the same advantage.

It’s amazing the similarities between McCann and Mauer. Their last names start with M. Both have common first names. Both suffered injuries early in their careers. Both were the 8th-youngest players in their leagues when they came up. Both play in their home big league town. Both bat left and throw right.

McCann and Mauer will forever be linked as their careers go on and beyond.

By Robert

October 6, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

I think Mauer is actually a year older - not that it matters much

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this

NLCHAMPS: The Mets will lose once they face superior pitching. But the Dodgers do not have superior pitching. If the Padres are wiped out by the Cards, then it’s a safe bet that the Mets will be in the WS. And then they will face superior pitching from the AL. The Padres rotation is much more promising than the Dodgers. The Dodgers just suck wind. They got on a hot streak, now they’re out of breath. They do have Maddux, but the rest of the rotation, and team, is a bunch of converted short stops.

At any rate, I’m going to the game tomorrow. It should be pretty exciting. It’s always a challenge to work your way through the knife fights, gang lynchings and parking lot snipers at Dodger stadium. I have yet to go to a game there when a fight didn’t break out.

By Rodger

October 6, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

NLCHAMPS, you’re right. The Mets & Glavine deserve props. Maybe if he had pitched like that in the postseason since 95, there would be more WS banners. Instead, he’s posted a whopping 10+ ERA-thus the low expectation. Of course, he hadn’t pitched for the Mets in postseason in his prior 3 years there-sorry!

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Lew: I concur. Mr. McCann obviously did something right. Put him in place of TP and we might just have solved the offensive “problems”. At least the Ks could be reduced.
Barring injury though, Mauer is going to continue doing this for some time. His average might stay higher though. He gets to DH. Even still, I’d pick McCann. They guy is just incredible. And who knows, some guys are “late bloomers” in that they don’t really show their full potential in the minors, but when they get on the big stage, they really take off.

By David O'Brien

October 6, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

TommyB: Thickfreakness _ how could I have forgotten that one? When I went up to look in my alphabetized CDs, I forgot that Thickfreakness was still out in living room in the “recently purchased” cabinet with all the others that I need to listen to more before filing. Anyway, yes, Thickfreakness is right there with The Big Come Up and Rubber Factory in the fine earlier work. It’s all actually quite recent, but if not mistaken those were the first three. I think Thickfreakness was between the other two, with The Big Come Up being first. Anyway…yes, yes, all great.

As for “The Proposition,” I had no idea that was the link. I didn’t click on the link and there was no name in the post. Then I saw “Blood Meridian” mentioned in follow post, and that’s what I was thinking about, the book by Cormac McCarthy (which may or may not have been made into a movie; I have no idea). I read that McCarthy book “No Country for Old Men” set in the contemporary West. Bloody as hell, great book.

Anyway, I rented The Proposition yesterday, literally about the same time Tommy was posting that link. Anybody seen it yet? I’m gonna watch it tonight probably. Watched “Hard Candy” last night, disturbing but great flick about a 14-year-old girl who’s a Fatal Attraction of sorts for this photog dude, and she’s a lot angrier than even Glenn Close was.

By David O'Brien

October 6, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

Oh, and I don’t have that other Keys CD. Definitely have to check that out; I had never even heard of that one. I’ve only gotten heavily into them in the past year, so maybe that was an earlier one on a smaller label? Not sure. Anyway, they’re on Fat Possum now, which is the best active blues label. They’ve got a few harder bands and rock bands, but all blues-based, pretty much.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

McCann and Mauer could be the present-day version of the Johnny Bench-Carlton Fisk debates of the ’70s.

Interesting that the ESPN guy mentioned catchers who became big-league regulars before they turned 21. That alone is a pretty small group. How many of those guys could hit a little bit? Perhaps Ivan Rodriguez, Ted Simmons, Joe Torre … that’s about it.

How could that doofus leave Bench out? He was a regular at age 20, won ROY and made the AS game.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

My take on the Mets is that, in a weird way, the injuries to Pedro and Hernandez benefitted them.

Before, they were overwhelming favorites to win. After, everyone wrote them off. I think that loosened them up, since no one expected them to win, and now they’re a relaxed “we have nothing to lose” team. Meanwhile, the suddenly favored Dodgers are the ones pressing and making mental mistakes.

One of the things against the Braves historically is that they’ve almost always been favored, and that’s not necessarily an advantage. Sometimes it’s a burden.

By NLCHAMPS

October 6, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

Many post here have considered the Dodgers amonth others “superior” to the Mets in pitching. If the Mets make the World Series even after losing Pedro and El Duque it’s a major accomplishment. Who knows….Maybe the Mets are a team of destiny.

By Matthew

October 6, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer:

You forget, we’re talking about ESPN, the worldwide leader in east coast bias and selective amnesia.

Da da da, da da da (from the Sportscenter theme)

Gearing up for a great weekend of SEC football, with my Hogs plotting the upset of Auburn, Georgia taking down Phat Phil and the Viles, and Florida and LSU hooking up (I’d love to see the Tiggers pick up their second confrence loss so soon, etc.) The SEC is hands down the best football conference in America. End of discussion.

Go Braves!

By Thomas

October 6, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Free agents:

• LF Alfonso Soriano
• LF Barry Bonds
• RF Gary Sheffield
• CF Vernon Wells
• P Barry Zito
• P John Thomson
• P Danny Baez
• P Chris Reitsma
• LF/1B Ryan Klesko
• RF Bobby Abreu
• CF Juan Pierre
• 2B Ronnie Belliard
• P Damaso Marte
• P Curt Schilling
• LF Carl Crawford
• SS Alex Gonzales
• RF JD Drew
• LF Geoff Jenkings
• 3B Aramis Ramirez
• LF Luis Gonzales
• CF Jay Payton
• SS Rich Aurilia

By Thomas

October 6, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this

IF I’m the Braves, I would be offering Carl Crawford, Juan Pierre, and Damaso Marte.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

McCann is the right guy for the Braves, if only for the simple fact that they will get a hometown discount when it’s time to pay him the big bucks. Same with Mauer and the Twins.

I think the numbers clearly favor Mauer, but really who cares? Both have the potential to, dare I say, become Hall of Famers, if they stay healthy. I just think if Mauer stays healthy he has a great shot at becoming one of the top 5 catchers ever. McCann, top 10-15. But it’s way too early to early to know anything for sure.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer,

He obviously overlooked Bench, but I don’t think that changes what he’s trying to say…still not that many.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Matthew,

Though I don’t deny their bias, it’s probably just sloppy reporting. Two of the three catchers he mentioned, Simmons and Rodriguez, aren’t East Coast guys. But to overlook Bench is beyond a mere brain fart. The dude needs an editor.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 6, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

How is it the Padres are so much better than the squad of “converted shortstops” when both teams finished with the same record?

Funny, I thought Derek Lowe and Brad Penny had pretty good seasons. And I’ve never seen either of them play short.

The Dodgers, for all their weaknesses, also finished nine games better than the Braves.

Say it with me: “The Mets are GOOD.”

You can admit it. The truth shall set you free.

Looks like that mercenary Tom Glavine’s move to New York is finally paying dividends.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 6, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

Thomas, Crawford isn’t a free agent. He is sgined through 2008. Vernon Wells is signed through 2007, but opinion has it that he will be traded this winter because he isn’t likely to resign with the Blue Jays. Also, I don’t believe Schilling is a free agent either. He is signed through next season as well.

One name I didn’t see on your list is Torii Hunter. The Twins have an option on his contract but it is 50/50 on whether they will exercise it or not. If they don’t he , Soriano, and Carlos Lee will be the biggest non-pitcher free agents available. I would suspect all of them will get at minimal $15 mil.

By Robert

October 6, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

“The Mets will lose once they face superior pitching.”

I guess you hope so, cuz if the Mets lose two of their starters and yet SOMEhow still find a way to get it done, then Atlanta’s “oh woe is us” excuses …….

Anyway, I dont wanna go back there. The trigger has been removed, at least until mid February, barring a few offseason accolade articles

FYI - Dont know who it is , but hope McCann’s agent aint Boras, cuz if so, you can forget about a home town discount

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

The Rays are SO needy that they almost HAVE to deal Crawford for a package of players. Face it, he had a terrific season but they still lost 100 games!

They need youngsters in the hope that enough of them will develop and make a difference two-three years down the road. Wonder if the Braves will be calling.

The Rays need lots of pitching and infielders…they actually have a glut of outfielders, making it easier for them to let Crawford go.

If I’m JS, I’m looking hard at Thorman, T. Pena, even Prado. Also Devine, McBride and Davies. If I’m Tampa, I want at least three of those to make it worth the risk.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 6, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

I think the Mets are just showing how weak the NL really was this year. People are crazy if they think the Mets (with all of their injured starters) can compete with any of the teams in the AL. I think the Mets will sweep the Dodgers and probably win the NLCS but that is where it will end.

I hate to say this but last night’s loss can be in part attriubted to two ex-Braves, Betemit and Furcal. Betemit should have taken that bunt and Furcal made a huge mistake in not charging that ball. Looks like maybe the curse has followed them.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer and Matthew,

Actually Nate Silver is an upper midwest guy, so I don’t know about any east coast bias or Johnny Bench hatred. I think he just overlooked him by accident, which doesn’t change his overall claim. Now if he was doing an article or something about the greatest catchers ever and ignored Bench, that would be beyond a brain fart. But this was just him leaving off a name.

I suppose the fact that he has only two Yankees or Mets in his top 25 most valuable players is east coast bias.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=silver/060418_2

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 6, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

I think what the Mets did last night is prove what myself and so many others here have been trying to say for months. It is nice to have all those homerun hitters but a truly good explosive offense needs balance. Yes, the Braves scored the second most runs in the NL and hit the second most HRs in the majors but those runs came in bunches and not on a consistent basis. It wasn’t the Mets big boppers that did the damage last night it was the “contact hitters”. Reyes, Chavez, and Valentein won that game last night along with excellent pitching from Glavine.

By Matthew

October 6, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer:

I know you’re right. I didn’t mean that the east coast bias was showing up in this case. I only meant that I have lost almost all respect for their coverage because of said biases. In this case, stupidity doesn’t need bias. You cannot leave Johnny Bench off any list of great cathcers. In fact, even though I didn’t watch Johnny play (I was born in 1981) from what I have read and heard, McCann could have a Bench type career.

I guess 10Paul must not be a Vol fan. I figured he’d bite on the Vile crack…:)

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 6, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer, exactly. I think the Rays will be looking to move Crawford. The Braves need to start right now working out a deal before the likes of Mets, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cardinals, and Twins began weavin their magic and in all cases except the Twins their checkbooks.

By The Grinch

October 6, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

DOB, Tommy’s link was to Ebert’s review of “The Proposition,” and goes on to draw on all the parallels between it and Blood Meridian. I highly recommend that book as well as all three volumes of “The Border Trilogy” by the same author. Some of his work can just be a little too obscure, but he’s a mighty fine writer however you cut it.

Mattew, UGA just lost their kicker for the season; he was the most consistent part of the offense. The defense is good, but I just have a feeling they’re either going to pull a miracle and win out against all odds, or fall flat and lose about four games. I hope it’s the former.

METSFan, The Dodgers are superior to the Mets in pitching, just not superior to anyone else in the playoffs. But, as you said, destiny could be involved here.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer and Matthew,

Actually, here are Johnny Bench’s numbers in his seasons before he turned 21:

1967, Age 19 - .163 AVG/.207 OBP/.256 SLG

1968 - Age 20 - .275 AVG/.311 OBP/.433 SLG

So it looks like he didn’t overlook Bench because Bench didn’t really start hitting until after his 21st birthday.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

Robert(Justice Is The Best,

Crawford’s not going anywhere.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Just read my new issue of Chop Talk magazine. There are monthly columns by JS and BC. Thought these comments might just interest everyone. JS-“It (the team) needs some changes and adjustments-not major, not backing up the truck changes that detonate the entire team and organization.” -BC-“People talk about getting a leadoff hitter, but I don’t think it’s the biggest thing in baseball to have a classic leadoff hitter. There are so few of theses guys. Nowadays baseball is played differently. There’s so much long ball.” Draw your own conclusions, y’all, but if I’m betting, I’d bet that Andruw is a Brave next year and Carl Crawford won’t be a Brave. Can anyone say Matt Diaz?

By Robert

October 6, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

Abreau and Sheffield are head and shoulders above the rest of the free agent class as hitters - unless you believe strongly in a 43 year old Bonds

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 6, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I think for the most part you are right. However, if someone offers some good cheap young pitching the Rays will bite. They have outfielders. They don’t have pitching.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

I can live with Diaz in left and Prado at 2B. It’s less about stolen bases than it is about getting on base, moving guys around, and getting big hits.

Shaun, if that’s really you saying Crawford’s not going anywhere, who’s your source? Beat reporters in Tampa-St.Pete say he’s the subject of multiple trade rumors, and acknowledge OF is an area of depth for the Rays.

I’m not saying they’ll deal him. I’m just saying they should. But a franchise that’s never lost fewer than 90 games shouldn’t be expected to make a lot of good decisions.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 6, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

Abreu isn’t a free agent this year. Part of the agreement in trading him was that the Yankees pick up the option and all the money. Abreu will be a Yankee next season, which is why Sheffield may not be.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

Robert(Justice Is The Best),

I agree. But I don’t think anyone in baseball can afford go give up good, cheap, young pitching, or no one would be willing to give it up.

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

I guess you hope so

Yes. I hope so. But not for an excuse Robert. I’ve never needed to look for one. No, I hope they don’t make it because I’m not a Mets fan. It’s that simple. I’m not shy about it. Much like the Mets fans are not shy about not being Braves fans. Or, something you might understand, much like you are thrilled the Braves didn’t win more WS’s because you aren’t a BC fan. You cheer against teams you don’t like, thus my desire to see the Mets lose.

Payne: Mauer’s numbers were fabulous all through the minors, but I’d pick McCann out of bias, home town hero, and his own spectacular numbers. Including his OPS, which was 50 points higher than Mauer’s this year.
But, Mauer is a different type hitter who fits in a different position in the order. I think McCann fits perfectly in the Braves order. He’s a great #5 hitter. Hits for a good average, has a lot of pop and so far, has been outstanding in the clutch. zing.

Matthew, I do cheer for the Vols, but I don’t know where the post is you are refrencing. Been busy thus the silence.

Work…It’s always something…

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer,

Well, I’m wrong. I’ve read some Crawford rumors, too, now that I think about it. But I’d be surprised if they get any quality young pitching for him. Maybe they should just try to get any young, cheap, quality players who aren’t outfielders.

By KC

October 6, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

Lew, Matt Diaz hitting leadoff??

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

Found it Matthew. Take your shots if it makes you feel good. It’s not going to upset me too much. I don’t follow football that closely. Cheer for the Vols because family attended there. I chose all my schools on the basis of Baseball. Just so happens, those schools don’t even have football programs. But they are possibly the best two colleges for baseball.

By Matthew

October 6, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

Paul:

See my 12:22 post for the Vols reference.

Have a great weekend.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

If the Braves are interested in Crawford, it’d be a steal if the Rays settled for only position players (Thorman, T. Pena, etc.) but surely they’d insist on at least one good arm.

To get a player of Crawford’s caliber, you gotta be prepared to part with some star potential.

But you never know…I’m still stunned we got Wickman for an A-ball catcher!

By KC

October 6, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

I would definitely take McCann over Mauer.

I think they’re similar in many ways. Both of them hit well over .300 this year, but I would take McCann because he has considerably more power than Mauer.

McCann is also an excellent defensive player and calls a great game. Mauer may be just as good in those respects, but I have a hard time picturing him being any better.

By KC

October 6, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

Shaun:

There’s only one reason we got Wickman for an A-ball catcher… Wickman wanted to be a Brave.

The Indians wanted to trade him and get something for him before the season ended. They attempted 2 or 3 deals which Wickman vetoed (he of course had 10-5 powers) before accepting the trade to come to Atlanta. Wickman really left the Indians with very little choice other than to accept whatever the Braves would offer in return.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Payne: Mauer’s numbers were fabulous all through the minors, but I’d pick McCann out of bias, home town hero, and his own spectacular numbers. Including his OPS, which was 50 points higher than Mauer’s this year. But, Mauer is a different type hitter who fits in a different position in the order. I think McCann fits perfectly in the Braves order. He’s a great #5 hitter. Hits for a good average, has a lot of pop and so far, has been outstanding in the clutch. zing.

McCann’s higher OPS is due to his higher slugging percentage. OPS is pretty good, but OBP should be weighted higher because it’s more important. Multiplying OBP by 1.5 or 2 in OPS (Ox2PS?) gives you a better snapshot of production. Mauer is a better out-avoider/on-base guy.

Mauer had more Win Shares this year http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=total&direction=DESC&seasonfilter%5B%5D=2006&posfilter%5B%5D=C&Submit=Submit

Mauer created more runs http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2006&seasonType=2&sort=runsCreated&type=sab&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=c

But McCann’s numbers are nothing to sneeze at, obviously. And I think McCann is a better option for the Braves—he’s from Atlanta (possible hometown discount) and it’s neat for us fans. Same with Mauer for the Twins.

Nothing wrong with either player.

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer,

There’s no way the D-Rays would take T. Pena and Thorman for Crawford. It’s going to have to be some grade A or B+ prospects. They may take Saltalamacchia.

KC,

I think you’re responding to rammerjammer about the Wickman trade. I agree.

By David O'Brien

October 6, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

McCann won’t even be eligible for arbitration until after the 2008 season, so don’t stress about his agent (not Boras, by the way). He’ll be affordable at least through second arbitration season, and I’d bet the Braves will make him the first since Andruw to get a multi-year deal before free agency, barring serious injury between now and then, of course.

Just filed a story (should be up soon) on Pendleton and Nats interest in him for manager job. They’re gonna interview him next week, and Bowden’s coming down to Atlanta to do the interview, not even making him go to D.C. But it’ll take a huge offer to get T.P. to leave Atlanta. He’s got three kids, including two teen-agers, and doesn’t want to move them or be away from them during the season. I’m sure in back of his mind he’d like to think when Cox retires _ 2,3,4 years? _ that he’d be in line for that post, and I’d think he would be, though a lot can happen certainly.

Gonna go see the new Martin Scorcese movie today, I think….

By Shaun

October 6, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

McCann is also an excellent defensive player and calls a great game. Mauer may be just as good in those respects, but I have a hard time picturing him being any better.

From everything I’ve read, Mauer’s a Gold Glove calliber catcher.

Okay, I’ll go ahead and say it—Mauer’s numbers (at least the ones that matter most) are better than McCann’s throughout their pro careers (that’s major and minors) and most baseball people think Mauer is a little better. It’s clearly bias that many say they would take McCann over Mauer.

Before I get grilled, I’m from Atlanta. I’m a huge Braves fans. McCann is probably my favorite Brave right now. I just think Mauer is a little better if you look at it closely and objectively. McCann is great but I think Mauer will be one of the all-time greats (again, barring injury).

That said, it’s cool that McCann is with the Braves because he’s a hometown guy and he’s probably going to be the NL’s best catcher for a while. I just think Mauer will be the best catcher in baseball.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

KC,

That was me talking about Wickman, not Shaun. And you’re right. Wick shot down other deals to play for BC, so I guess the Indians were kinda stuck. (Remember, JS was in that position with Millwood and got Estrada!)

According to Tampa Tribune, Rays payroll next season will be only $22 million. Which means Crawford will soon be too expensive to keep, so they’d better deal him now.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

Hey Shaun,

I didn’t say the Rays would be interested if we offered just Thorman and T. Pena. What I said was If I’m JS, I’m looking hard at Thorman, T. Pena, even Prado. Also Devine, McBride and Davies. If I’m Tampa, I want at least three of those to make it worth the risk.

At least three, and I also said but surely they’d insist on at least one good arm.

For three-four very good prospects with strong upsides and several affordable years, I think Tampa might listen. Youneverknow!

By Matthew

October 6, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

Paul:

Just pickin’ at you. Not much to cheer about with the Braves at home. Hope no offense was taken.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this

KC-Why not? If you believe what I quoted BC as saying it makes as much sense as Marcus. Diaz is a good contact hitter and if not Reyes fast, is at least able to move it out pretty well. Who else, if they don’t get a leadoff hitter (and it looks like they won’t and aren’t even considering it), Martin Prado?

By Lew

October 6, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

Shaun-That’s ok. I’ll take the second best catcher in all of baseball any day. Especially if he’s hitting .333 with 90+RBI. Just think what his numbers might have been if not for that ankle injury. His doubles would have gone way up, increasing slugging and OPS way past what Mauer had. Just how many did Brian hit off of the wall and had to stop at first because of his ankle?

By Matthew

October 6, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer:

That story from the Tampa paper is intriguing. Is it on their webpage, or do you have a link? I’d like to read it.

Thanks.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Ditto. We got the bats. A base-stealing threat would be nice, but not essential.

By KC

October 6, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

Lew:

yes, he’s a good contact hitter but he walks almost as seldom as Jeff Francoeur. That’s why his OBP is not that much higher than his batting avg. If he doesn’t hit well over .300 again, his OBP might slip into the low-300 range. He walked only 11 times in nearly 300 AB’s.

Also, while Giles is not a base-stealer, he is one of those guys that you at least have to watch. He’ll usually steal 15 bases a year. Diaz has stolen a grand total of 5 in 172 career games. Diaz also has a higher SO/AB ratio than Giles.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

KC-Did you see where I quoted BC as saying that he wasn’t concerned about not having a classic leadoff hitter? We will not signone this winter. It has become quite obvious that the Braves’ management don’t care if we steal bases. In this instance, Matt Diaz would be a viable option. I think it is becoming clear that the Braves will not trade Andruw and they will go after pitching, not a leadoff man and not a left fielder.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

Matthew, here it is: http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/01/Rays/Progresspromised_bu.shtml

And here’s another one, which mentions their payroll (less than half that of the Braves): http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/02/Rays/Anewlow_butno_los.shtml

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 6, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

KC, I tend to agree with you. My problem with Diaz hitting leadoff is his tendency to swing at the first pitch. I have to say Giles did a fairly good job at being patient. My biggest problems with Giles in the leadoff is his lack of speed and his hatred of the position.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Well, Giles is supposedly going to be traded this winter, so I guess he won’t be leading off next year because he won’t be here. The Braves are not going to get a leadoff hitter. BC has as much as said it. JS has said that he is going to bring the pitching back to what it used to be. This again indicates it is pitching this winter, not a leadoff hitter. Crawfor would be a great addition to anyone’s line up, but he bats second or third, anyway. If everyone wants to debate a trade, figure how we can get Scott Kazmir from the Rays and quit freaking over a leadoff hitter that will steal bases. We had one in Furcal and in only two seasons did he steal more than 29 bases. BC does NOT have his players run. That is a fact. Don’t keep expecting the leopard to change his stripes. We have an offense, speed or no speed. We need pitching and JS and BC know it.

By Carlos Amato

October 6, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

Well, right now it’s Oakland 2-0 up against Minesota, bottom of the 2nd, and about to eliminate the “superior pitching”.

As dreadful as it may sound (and I just hate the idea), we’re about to see a Subway series.

I think I might hibernate. Wake me up after the nightmare’s gone and spring trainig is up.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

Also-Assuming Giles is traded (hopefully for pitching) and Prado takes over for him at second-who would you bat leadoff. You have a choice-Prado or Diaz/Langerhans. I would like to see what Diaz can do on an everyday basis, since he hits both RHP AND LHP equally well. He may swing at the first pitch, but actually makes contact with it a good amount of the time. Prado is completely unproven. We haven’t seen him enough to know what he will do. It’s got to be Diaz.

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

Matthew: None whatsoever.

Payne: OBP is great. I wish Francoeur’s was much higher. Power is sort of the “natural” gift. It can be improved, but not very drastically without artificial enhancers. OBP can be improved by nearly everyone in the game because it’s a matter of plate discipline. Mauer may never hit as many homeruns as McCann, but McCann could improve his OBP to equal Mauer’s.

McCann’s speed makes him more suitable deeper in the rotation. If McCann had a 500 OBP and a .250 SLG, but still ran with the same speed, he’d be pretty useless. Great at getting on base no doubt, but he’d be in a record number of double plays. His speed would make you think three times before you moved his OBP to the top of the order.
His power and high average are what’s great and it fits perfectly in the middle part of the order. This makes him a very good candidate for a 5th spot or deeper. Especially since he’s a lefty and we have a righty cleanup hitter.

All this isn’t to say I don’t like Mauer of course, but I perfer McCann over Mauer.

By Carlos Amato

October 6, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

Oakland 4-0 Minesota. Talk about momentum not affecting post-season at all. The Twins, who were on a tear, are now going home. The A’s, who’d pretty much cooled off the last couple of weeks, playing great baseball.

Guess that argument that WC teams have an advantage over teams who clinch divisions early because they step up near the end of the reg. season just doesn’t cut…

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

Diaz had a .400 OBP batting lefthanded but only .327 hitting righthanded. Slugging percentage about the same both ways.

Langerhans had a .400 OBP batting righthanded and .343 hitting from the left. Slugging percentage dismal both sides.

Are there successful teams with platooned leadoff men who between them might swipe 10 bases a year? Shaun, where are you??

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

Prado had a combined .321 OBP in 417 minor league ABs this year, with four SBs. Hard to get real excited about that at the top of the order, but I like him ok at #8.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Rammer-Diaz is NOT a switch hitter. Do you mean his OBP was against right a nd left handed pitchers? I am in favor of giving Diaz the starting left field job. His defense is not up to that of Langerhans, but he is adequate. I don’t think their OBP matters in this case, because we won’t go out and get someone who is a leadoff hitter. It will be between Diaz or Prado. There is not other choice. Are you going to have Andruw or McCann leadoff? Maybe Edgar.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 05:29 PM | Link to this

St. Louis’ best base-stealer had 12, and Oakland’s had 11. I was sold on a fast leadoff man; now, I’m not so sure. It seems to be a non-factor, and not nearly as important as getting on base. And, in that area, Diaz can get on base just fine.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 05:31 PM | Link to this

Diaz had a BA of .295 v.LHP and a BA of .358 v. RHP. His OBP was .364 and he has hit 7 Triples in 172 career games, so he has speed.

By rammerjammer

October 6, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Sorry about that. Knew what I meant, just didn’t write it that way!

By Georgetown Kid

October 6, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer:

I don’t think the D-Rays would trade Crawford if we offered them all six of the players you mentioned, let alone 3 of them.

Pena is a weak hitting backup infielder.

Prado is a slightly better hitting backup infielder.

Thorman is a decent prospect, but is not a starter on a good team.

Davies was among the worst starting pitchers in all of baseball this season. I don’t think anyone would expect him to contribute much to a starting rotation next season.

McBride is a decent middle reliever, but nothing special.

Devine has tons of talent, but is several years away from being a top-notch reliever.

Crawford, on the other hand, is an all-star calibre player.

Let’s face it, if we want to acquire top-notcher players in a trade, we will have to offer more than spare parts in return.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

Rammer-No problem, Dude, I knew what you meant. I would like to see what Diaz could do. We can sign him. He’s cheap and he has proven he can hit. He had just shy of 33AB this year and that’s a fair enough amount to get a good feel of his potential. He even has a .300 career BA in over 400 AB. Not bad.

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

rammer: It isn’t the need for simply speed at the top of the order. Speed is worthless if it’s the only tool in the shed. The guy needs to know how to get on base. Meaning, he has to hit and have good plate discipline. The speed will factor into other scenarios. First to third on a hit, or beating out a ground ball. Speed has the ability to prolong an inning, but it’s useless while sitting in the duggout because you can’t hit or have no clue about the strike zone. Take the Mets. They have fast guys all through the line up. But it isn’t just those guys speed that matters, they can all hit fairly well. Once they get on, they can score off hits that players like McCann couldn’t.

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

Diaz is a free agent? I keep reading that on these posts. He has four seasons in the majors, but not four complete seasons. From looking at his stats, it appears that this was his second season up with a team for a significant amount of time. That’d put him under control for 4 more seasons. I could be wrong on that though…

By Robert

October 6, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

“much like you are thrilled the Braves didn’t win more WS’s “

I have NEVER been thrilled to see the Braves lose the WS and have never rooted against them in the playoffs

That said, since 1999 I have been hoping that something would happen to get Cox out of here

That left me rooting for the Braves to not make the post season, which to me made sense as a fan because I looked at it as a step back to take two forward

And yet every time they made it to the playoffs, I rooted for them, tho knowing it was hopeless. After 99, I actually swore to never watch another Braves game until Cox was gone - couldnt do it - love the team too much

Strange situation to be in I guess.

I had some small hope that the new ownership would get it done, but aint gonna happen

I guess all I can hope for now is for the ole buzzard to retire.

If it would make him leave, I’d personally put on the biggest retirement party in town for him out of my own pocket, and roll out the red carpet to the HOF (and shame on them if they dont slam the door in his face). I’d kiss his (one) ring if only he’d just leave

I still dont see it regarding the 14 straight. I mesn, to take the other side, I wouldnt think any LESS of the Braves if they had missed out once or twice and had a longest streak of five in a row. To me it’s one of those statistics that happen as a result of what takes place on the field - incidental

I know you dont agree with me. But trust that there is NOTHING I want more, than for the Braves to win a WS title (except for them to win two or three or four and to beat the Yankees while doing it)

I wish one time one of the press would call Bobby out on his comments like one bad pitch resulting in a grand slam -

“Bobby, how about the other bad pitches that led to a double and two walks?” -

My bet is that you’d hear a silence like when someone farts in church - cuz it would be blasphemy

I also bet that whoever asked that would lose his press credentials

Let’s go back to the McCann Mauer thing or something similar. Just thinking of ANOTHER season of you-know-who has me nauseous

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this

Robert: I’m pleased Bobby doesn’t go on public rants against his players. It’s unprofessional. From what DOB has said, he talks to them in private, or, in front of the team, but not in front of the press.
And suppose the press did ask him about those “other bad pitches” what’s he supposed to say? “Yeah, they were bad.” What purpose does that serve?
Besides, I doubt his players think they did a good job walking the other guys in front of a homer. And I’m 100% sure that Bobby didn’t throw a single one of those pitches. But whatever. Hate him if you must. Hate away. It changes nothing. Nothing.

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

That left me rooting for the Braves to not make the post season

You spend 6 months cheering against them, and you call yourself a fan?

By Carroll

October 6, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

Thank God TP is interviewing for the gNats job…we needed a total house cleaning on the staff as well as on the field. Hopefully we will be rid of Chipper, Huddy, Gilly and all the rest of the dead weight as well before too long.

By Robert

October 6, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this

“You spend 6 months cheering against them, and you call yourself a fan?”

I didnt think you’d understand. I figured if they flop, then there would be a good chance you know who would be fired

The way I see it, that’s a painful short term step backward to achieve a potentially awesome two leaps forward

As for what purpose does it serve to call him out on dumb quotes - it serves more than making them.

I am not saying he should call out his players in public. I am saying that “No comment” is a better answer than nonsense

Now Diaz - he has a 73/17 K/BB ration over his 297 at-bats. That strongly suggests that the .300 avg is a fluke.

Soriano is maybe the outlier right now as far as having an awful K/BB ratio and still maintaining a decent batting average - his K/BB is a little under 4/1 and his career average is .280

Diaz is a back up catcher who had a nice year. Trouble is, he owes the hitting gods. There’s a .210 payback season in his near future

By Robert

October 6, 2006 07:09 PM | Link to this

TP - I really tried to stay off this topic

How about a friendly wager -

I’ll bet ya a six pack of your favorite malted beverage that in the first full year that the Braves play under a different manager than Cox, that they improve by at least ten games over the last Cox year

Let’s make that bet, shake on it, agree to forever disagree about his abilities, and go back to more enjoyable topics

By Robert

October 6, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this

That should say 416 career at bats for Diaz

By Tom A. Hawk

October 6, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this

How do we know McCann calls such a great game? Seems to me there have been fewer great games pitched by Braves since McCann came along. 79-83 with a team ERA that ballooned in ‘06 would seem to indicate he’s no genius at calling games.

I’ll certaily take his offensive production and defense behind the plate, but where does great game-calling enter in?

Congratulations, Athletics! At least that damn Twinkie Dome won’t factor in to who’s the champion.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 08:15 PM | Link to this

Yes-I said a .300 BA (actually.305) in over 400 AB. 416 is over 400.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 6, 2006 08:21 PM | Link to this

Robert —

Make it a six-pack of Diet Mountain Dew, and I’ll take your wager!

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 09:19 PM | Link to this

Robert: Rooting for them not to make the playoffs…finaly you got your wish. Cox isn’t fired. Now you don’t even get to cheer for them in the playoffs. It’s much more exciting when they make the playoffs.
“No comment” is a better answer than nonsense. show me a team that didnt win without Cox that then won with him (same team, same year) You’re right, no comment would have been better.

I’m watching ESPN. Mindless banter from the morons in the booth, excluding Ernie.
Ernie is keeping score and they interupt him. “Ernie”, they say, “this is ESPN. You don’t have to keep score.” (shaking my head)

By HBG

October 6, 2006 09:44 PM | Link to this

I’d like to invite everyone to check out Robert’s website! www.donkeyintheblog.com

By Carolina Lady

October 6, 2006 09:49 PM | Link to this

HBG, I thought this was Robert’s website!

By TennesseePaul

October 6, 2006 10:02 PM | Link to this

79-83 with a team ERA that ballooned in ‘06 would seem to indicate he’s no genius at calling games

Not all those games are his. But we can go based off what the pitchers say. Smoltz loves him and wanted him as his personal catcher last season… But lets go with games he layed in.
McCann: 58-50
Pratt: 12-22
Those are the best I can do since I didn’t keep GS tallies for these guys. So it doesn’t add all the way up in total games. But it’s close and I think safe to assume these numbers or some form close to them.

As for the ERA… hmmmm I seem to recall we had a rotation that included a grip of stand-ins as well as Jorge Sosa. He can make the call, but when the crappy pitcher lays ‘em down the middle, there’s nothing he can do.

Rodgers is handling the Yankees. Love to see them get booted out of the playoffs

By Robert

October 6, 2006 10:05 PM | Link to this

You got it Tom A Hawk - shake

I hope our bet is decided soon :P

Tennessee Paul - Cox remains, so I didnt get my real wish.

If you are a Cox fan, there’s no way you’ll understand my point of view. I can try and put it in a context you might be able to relate to

Suppose you are the parent of a child who decides to drop of 8th grade because the corner lemonade stand is going so well that he figures if he works it seven days a week, he’ll be able to buy get his own place and not have deal with his dopey dad telling him to do his chores?

Do you root for your kid to make enough money to further encourage his misguided dream, or do you root for him to fail, so that he’ll come to his senses and make the decision that will be for his own good in the long run?

TP, and anyone else, if y’all think I’m so dumb or so crazy, then just take my bet.

I’ll throw the whole blog a big WS championship party with all the brew y’all are gonna owe me :P

By dadgum

October 6, 2006 10:13 PM | Link to this

Lew…yeah forgot “Whiter Shade Of Pale” actually remembered it as I was driving to work. Wouldn’t you know it. After I read your mentioning of Procol Harum, I immediately thought of “Conquistador”. The song stuck in my head all day and I began singing it randomly(while nobody could hear of course, I think). I got in the car later today and my XM radio was on Channel 46 and you guessed it “Conquistador” was playing. OK..gotta be a sign. Maybe I should go to Vegas and bet….on something….maybe.

I don’t check in as often right now due to other stuff but I heard TP was being touted by some pundits in DC as the lead guy with another TP (Tony Pena)for the manager job. Apparently they are the only main targets for Bowden. This I assume has been already mentioned here but the take locally is that our TP isn’t real interested. Primarily because it is well, how do I put this nicely, the Nationals. The Nationals are the Rangers of the NL. The death of all managers. TP would do well to pass on this gig. Just my take…. but you never know what life will bring you tomorrow and millions could talk ….loudly.

DOB….I’ve lost count but from what I gather you gotta have close to 300 cd’s of artists many of which are unfamiliar to me prior to reading them here. I mean, dude, every day you are buying a cd of some artist. Give us a total!!! If 300 is the line I’m betting the over. I’m jealous.

By Bob, journalist

October 6, 2006 10:18 PM | Link to this

And to think … just a few hours ago, I ridded my computer of the virus … completed deletion of several hundred unwanted emails and emailed a good friend that like Hank, our Robert has seen the light and changed subjects.

Makes me concerned that the virus free condition is but one of short duration or that I’m as delusional as he.

For Washington to be interested in Terry, with his well known attitudes and priorities toward Atlanta and family … suggests the possibility of a “mighty tempting” offer.

By Robert

October 6, 2006 10:19 PM | Link to this

“But we can go based off what the pitchers say.”

If only it were that simple.

I understand that you mean to say that the players know how to play the game and know what constitutes calling a good game

But TP, first of all, so much of what “the players say” is actually second or third hand - what we are told they say thru a short article or tv spot that has been condensed and edited from a lot of material

Secondly, politics. How many times in YOUR line of work can you speak your mind totally free of any worries about who might think what about what you say.

People tend to say things that are the politically correct things to say, or they get Girardi’d

I am not saying that McCann is or is not a good signal caller. I think the sample size is too small for now

Hey HBG - shoot me the name of a good clip art site I might register that name you suggested and devote the site to my favorite big league skipper

And if anyone has a good picture of Cox picking his nose in the dugout

Why do I always think he’s gonna pull a turd out?

By Robert

October 6, 2006 10:24 PM | Link to this

Ridded?

Was your journalism school in Alabama or West Virginia?

By Tom A. Hawk

October 6, 2006 10:28 PM | Link to this

Smoltz’s ERA went up this year, too, but I don’t know whether McCann vs. Pratt made any difference at all in his starts.

If I had a choice between Pratt in the lineup at .195 and McCann in there at .333, I’d diplomatically praise McCann’s game-calling to the heavens as well.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 6, 2006 11:40 PM | Link to this

What is this about McCann being a good signal caller or not? I think if a guy like Smoltz hand picks him to be his personal catcher at the age of 22 then that speaks volumes about his game calling abilities.

By Lew

October 6, 2006 11:44 PM | Link to this

Dadgum-We discussed the size of our cd collections a while back. I’ve got 1200 and I think DOB said his collection topped 2500. Mine is probably much more hard rock than his. I would imagine DOB has a lot more country than I do. I’m pretty sure there is no Night Ranger in his collection and I have no Hank Sr. in mine.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 7, 2006 12:01 AM | Link to this

Dadgum: Twelve hundred CDS and not a one of them Hank Williams Sr.? That’s pitiful, sir!

RJIB, because I was confused as to how the Braves’ pitching could have fallen off so dramatically in ‘06 with a catcher who calls such a great game, I simply asked for someone to give me the basis for such a bold claim about McCann. Is the fact that John Smoltz loves him his only validation? Do the other pitchers feel the same and say so? Because if we just look at the numbers like a Shaun would, they don’t speak too well of McCann’s game-calling abilities.

I realize full well the bullpen was atrocious for most of the season. But it’s not like Smoltz had better stats this year than last. Or Tim Hudson. Or any other Braves pitcher. So where does the great game-calling come into play?

It’s an honest question from an uninformed fan. Someone enlighten me.

And dadgummit! Invest in some Hank Sr.!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 12:08 AM | Link to this

How about those Tigers tonight? I don’t think that series is anywhere near over. But, it looks like another October swoon is in store for the Yanks. I’d take Bonderman over Wright any day. Maybe now some folks can lay off the Braves. The Yanks haven’t won a WS in six years and haven’t been back in three.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 12:12 AM | Link to this

Well, Smoltz was as good as always. In fact, he was better if you really look at it. If not for the bullpen he would’ve been a 20 game winner. Hudson sucked last year so can’t really lay that on McCann. The rest of the pitching staff was either hurt or just sucked. It is kind of like saying Piazza is a great game caller becaue the Padres staff is so good. When the truth is that the pitchers are good in spite of Piazza.

By David O'Brien

October 7, 2006 12:19 AM | Link to this

Wow, was Kenny Rogers an inspiring SOB tonight, or what? Tigers and A’s in the ALCS … that’ll be a great one.

Saw the new Scorcese movie, “The Departed,” and am pleased to report that it’s outstanding, another sprawling, powerful film by the greatest living director (in my opinion). Tremendous. Not quite as good as Goodfellas, but as good or better than Gangs of New York and Casino Probably need to see it again to make such a judgment, however.

Leo DiCaprio is shockingly good, and I’ve always been a guy who didn’t think he was such a great actor. He’s finally rid of the pretty-boy looks and can pull off a tough-guy character quite convincingly. And just an awesome performance by Jack Nicholson as an Irish crime boss in Boston….

Found a CD today that’s so good I can’t believe I never heard it before. It’s a tribute to the songwriter Doc Pomus, called “Till The Night is Gone,” and was done in 1995. Best cuts by Los Lobos (“Lonely Avenue”), Shawn Colvin (“Viva Las Vegas”), Lou Reed (“This Magic Moment”), Dion (“Turn Me Loose”), Rosanne Cash (“I Count The Tears”), Soloman Burke (“Still In Love”) and John Hiatt (“A Mess of Blues”). Yes, a whole lot of our favorite artists in one place.

Worth looking for or ordering online if it’s still in print.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 12:22 AM | Link to this

Hey, DOB, do you really think Boyz II Men have watered down music?

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 12:23 AM | Link to this

Tom A. Hawk, that was Lew with 1200, not dadgum (I have no idea how many he has). As for McCann, I’m not sure how good a game he calls, but I do know this. Earlier in the year when Bobby was using Pratt more I decided to watch Brian more closely to see why. Every time I payed pretty close attention, it looked to me like when he’d set up outside, the pitch would go over the middle. Up, down, etc, ad nauseum. Of course, those pitchers were usually Hudson, Reitsma or Sosa, but still. I don’t think the bloated era’s are his fault, based on the little bit I payed attention to.

By David O'Brien

October 7, 2006 12:24 AM | Link to this

I guess if I call him the best director, I should spell Martin Scorsese’s name correctly.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 7, 2006 12:27 AM | Link to this

RJIB, if you don’t have an answer, just say so. But don’t get frustrated and make out like I’m trying to say Hudson sucked because McCann is a lousy signal caller.

So what makes McCann better than Piazza at it? Does anyone know, or are we just yet again giving a Brave credit for something simply because he’s a Brave?

Damn! Buck O’Neil died. I thought he’d live to be 110. Bet now those idiot Hall of Fame voters regret denying him his rightful spot in Cooperstown earlier this year.

Rest in peace, Mr. O’Neil.

By David O'Brien

October 7, 2006 12:27 AM | Link to this

I think it’s about 3,000, but haven’t counted in couple of years. It’s way too many, that’s for damn sure. No Night Ranger, that I’m certain of. Plenty of Hank I and III, but no II, that I’m sure of.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 12:29 AM | Link to this

All the pitchers praise McCann’s game calling abilities. I don’t think they are just saying that to spare his feelings. Remember, no one ever praised Javy Lopez’s game calling. Maddux just got lucky as the one who didn’t have to have him as the catcher. Javy is a bad game caller. The Red Sox pitching went from bad to God awful the second he got behind the plate.

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 12:32 AM | Link to this

DOB, glad to hear you acknowledge the Great One (Scorcese). Also glad that movie’s good; I’m gonna try to see it tommorrow. All of his movies are worth owning and watching multiple times (though some are better than others). “Gangs” is one of my favorites, though DiCaprio ruined it by looking like a bunny rabbit (no pun intended). Glad he’s gotten over that. Maybe he can go back and redo that one. :-) If you can stand slow, artistic movies you’ll be hard to beat “Khundun,” Scorcese’s movie about the Dalai Lama made about 7 or 8 years ago that nobody’s heard of. Soundtrack by Phillip Glass. It’s very powerful and totally surreal. Gotta make sure you’re in the mood and no screaming kids around, and you ought to dig it (might even impress a chick by being artsy).

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 12:36 AM | Link to this

Tom A. Hawk, I didn’t say that. If it came across that way, I do apologize. I’m just saying that the pitchers poor performance can’t be linked to McCann in my opinion. I think it could have been worse with another catcher. In fact, it seemed to me at times guys were more frustrated when Pratt was behind the plate than McCann. As far as Smoltz’s endorsement of McCann, I think that does have some weight. A vet like Smoltz usually doesn’t endorse young catchers. They think they know more than the catcher, which they usually do. I just think this pitching staff stunk and Johnny Bench could have been behind the plate and the same results would have taken place.

Again, man, I’m sorry if what I said came across rude.

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 12:38 AM | Link to this

Dang, Dave; you’re right. I just went and checked my “Goodfellas” box. I’ve been spelling it wrong for years. Silly me. Check out the “Great Directors” edition DVD featuring him, and “A Personal Journey Through Film with Martin Scorsese.” I have them both and the latter especially is priceless. As great as he is, the man has no ego. He’s totally humble, unlike self-important d-bags like Lucas, Reiner and Spielberg. Great stuff.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 12:43 AM | Link to this

Here is a question to everyone. If the Yanks don’t win the WS this season (heck if they get knocked out tomorrow), that it will be six years without a WS title. Are they as big or bigger choke than the Braves? Does this mean Torre sucks as a manager in the postseason? Here is a team that has the highest payroll of any team in the majors during that time. More money than god. Much more talent than the Braves have had. I’m just asking.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 7, 2006 12:43 AM | Link to this

The Red Sox pitching went from bad to God awful the second he got behind the plate.

Oh, the irony!

I’d change the subject if I weren’t s o upset about Buck O’Neil.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 12:49 AM | Link to this

Tom A. Hawk, are we cool, man? I agree about Buck O’Neil. It is a sad day for baseball.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 7, 2006 01:00 AM | Link to this

Robert, no problem. I just thought a marked improvement in signal calling would translate into some improvement overall in the pitching staff. But the Braves pitchers were plagued so by injury and surprisingly substandard performance that McCann could well be a great one and it just sisn’t show up in wins and losses.

I just didn’t want my confusion to be misinterpreted as a critcism of McCann, because I have absolutely no idea of all that goes on behind the plate.

I have a qustion for the baseball encyclopedias out there. Ivan Rodriguez could win his second world title this year. How many cacthers have won World Series as starters with two different teams?

Rick Dempsey won in ‘83 with the Orioles and was pressed into emergency service in Games 4 and 5 with the Dodgers in 1988. But Mike Scioscia was the Dodgers starter that year.

Gene Tenace was the ‘72 World Series MVP with the A’s and won another title in ‘82 as Darrell Porter’s backup.

But off the top of my head, I can’t think of anyone who started at catcher for two different world championship teams. Is there one? Or more?

By journalist jimmy smith

October 7, 2006 01:04 AM | Link to this

I always figured DOB to be more of a “Village People” type!

By David O'Brien

October 7, 2006 01:04 AM | Link to this

Buck _ as classy as they come, period. Met him at Kansas City’s old spring training park in Florida about 10 years ago, and he was an absolute prince. If you ever get a chance to go to the Negro League Museum in Kansas City, by all means do so. I swear I thought it was more powerful experience than Cooperstown, although both are great.

Grinch, have you ever heard the song “Martin Scorsese” by King Missile. It’s the funniest, coolest early-80s alt-rock song you’ve ever heard (or never heard, whatever the case may be).

If you’ve not heard, it, google it and check out the lyrics, or try to download it or something. it’s freakin’ hilarious.

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 01:05 AM | Link to this

That really is awful about Buck. I mean 94 is pretty old, but they could’ve at least sent the old fellow off with some peace of mind.
On a different note: There’s a headline here that says “Clay Aiken sales off.” Should we put Tony Almedia on suicide watch? :-)

By Keith

October 7, 2006 01:12 AM | Link to this

Instead of letting Sutton, a Hall of Famer, go - why not let Pete van Weiren go? The Professor has always seemed intent on trying to impress us with his recall of statistics. I’d rather have someone who understands the game at the depth Sutton does by virtue of having actually played the game at that level. There are at least two other announcers I’d have let go before Sutton. We will definitely miss Don. God Bless.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 7, 2006 01:36 AM | Link to this

I did a little research and found Mickey Cochrane won World Series with the Philadelphia A’s of 1929-1930 and then again with the 1935 Detroit Tigers. Is there any other catcher? Ol’ Pudge probably has a chance to accomplish something very rare.

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 01:41 AM | Link to this

Dave, I have not. But I will. G’night, All.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 01:51 AM | Link to this

I’m interested to see what the NY media has to say now. Its not just A-Rod who is choking but the “Golden Boy” as well. Can you imagine the catastrophic effect that would take place if the Yanks get knocked out tomorrow?

By TennesseePaul

October 7, 2006 02:16 AM | Link to this

DOB: I too just saw the departed. Excellent film. Excellent. Everyone in it was flawless. I even liked Marky Mark. And I usually don’t. Great film.

RJIB: Does this mean Torre sucks as a manager in the postseason
Of course. I’ve heard from some where that, with a team so talented as the Br.., er, Yankees, any old donkey could win a world series. It’s just that simple. Torre gets there because his managerial miscues are masked over the long regular season schedule. So I’m told anyway. It has something to do with lemon aid and eighth grade emancipation? I don’t know. It’s all very complicated. Well, except for winning the world series. That part’s really easy.

By TennesseePaul

October 7, 2006 02:26 AM | Link to this

The Yankees are relying on Wright tomorrow. I may be wrong on this, but I think Wright is winless in post season elimination games. The thrill of it all. It’d be great if he puts them in a whole… they almost battle back and then Farnsworth gives up 5 runs to put it out of reach.

By Robert

October 7, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

“It’d be great if he puts them in a whole”

Aw Tennessee - where every day is like being in the Special Olympics

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

C’mon, you two; be nice…hugs are for everyone! :-)

By dadgum

October 7, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Not sure where the blog is going but sure it is mostly an all subject thing right now (as always) I guess. Anyway I pulled up Zeppelin on YOUTUBE and found an old gig from ‘69 on a Danish tv show. They were doing Babe I’M Gonna Leave You. You just gotta go check this out. I mean they looked like they just walked out of high school. The talent is just incredible.

Then I listened to The Rain Song from No Quarter gig. To see the span of years and talent well intact you just have to shake your head in admiration.

I always go back to listen to all the old Zep with the hard edge blues riffs. It just goes back to what I have been saying for 35 years. Zep is the best band EVER for me. True rock icons in every sense of the word.

Just wondering….what is the shelf life of 3000+ cds? Ok gotta go to YOUTUBE and catch Seven Year Ache from Rosanne Cash. It’s in my head for some reason. Is this coming from a Zep fan….cultural dudes. Later!

By dadgum

October 7, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this

Just went to YOUTUBE and pulled up Seven Year Ache sessions with Cash/Radney Foster. Then went to the tribute with Johnny on a song titled Septmeber When It Comes. Ah yes talent. Great talent. Somehow the adjectives just aren’t doing this justice. The Man In Black……..cool forever.

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Dadgum, YouTube is the thing, is it not? As for Zeppelin, I listened to them on and off for 20 years before someone gave me a 5 1/2 hour DVD of live compilations. Prior to that I had liked them, but wouldn’t have put them in my top 25 (I always thought people got entirely too worked up over them). After watching their live stuff from 1970 through 79 (done in almost seamless transition with fantastic sound quality), I suddenly realized what the big deal was. They were truly awesome. I have to disagree with you on No Quarter (the DVD, not the song); I got that shortly thereafter with great anticipation and was dissapointed. I know Page and Plant were much older, but as good as they still were it just really wasn’t the same without Jones and Bonham. It was a magical gathering that can never be adequately reproduced. I have since given “No Quarter” to a friend (who loves it). Anyhoo. Yeah, YouTube has been responsible for me missing many a deadline lately. Thanks for giving me something else to look up…>:-0

By dadgum

October 7, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Grinch, personally I like the Rain Song and Gallows Pole off the No Quarter dvd better than the original. In fact the whole dvd is kind of like going back to revisit the old Zep III album with all the acoustic stuff. Granted they are backed by a stellar orchestra on the dvd which brings out the music more. Anyway it is talent and even as they age they find a way to hang around in our ears. Yeah YOUTUBE is great. Some of the video/music is out of synch on the bootleg homemade stuff but the uploads of good quality come through.

Go to YOUTUBE to see Harry Chapin do a live version of Cats In The Cradle from ‘75. Clarity is great and what a legendary figure. I have harped about him before here but he was perhaps the most underrated singer/songwriter of all time.

Going to look up the John Hiatt tune “Damn Guitar”. It’s in my head. Later…..

By KC

October 7, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

3 STEP PLAN TO FIX BASEBALL:

1 – The best overall record (and not the all-star game) decides home field advantage for the World Series!

2 – No more 5 game series. All post-season series’ will be 7 games!

3 – Two words: salary cap!

By Lew

October 7, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

Dadgum-The shelf life of 3,000 cd’s is the same as one. Take care of it the right way and put it up when you’re done and they should outlive you. They’re read by a beam of light, so there is nothing like a diamond stylus to cause degradation. Degradtion is a very personal thing. You have to supply your own.

By dadgum

October 7, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

Kind of just throwing the shelf life out there in jest…I mean 3000 cds…I am not worthy I am not worthy!!!

Went in search of John Hiatt. They pulled Perfectly Good Guitar (not Damn Guitar) off the site as it was a bad post. Did catch “Riding with the king” with Sonny Landreth & The Goners. Great clarity to boot. Also caught Hiatt with the North Mississippi All Stars. They can cook. Look it up worth the time.

By KC

October 7, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

Lew: Good afternoon!

I never had a chance to respond to you yesterday about the leadoff hitter thing. I’m not one of those saying that our top priority should be to get Crawford or a true leadoff hitter (which BTW, Crawford is not). I’m fine with having someone with slightly above average speed, and a solid on-base percentage in the leadoff spot. Diaz did have a decent OBP, but I’m not sure he can duplicate it unless he becomes more selective as a hitter.

I said yesterday that Diaz walks almost as rarely as Francoeur… but I stand corrected. Francoeur actually walks more than Diaz!!! Diaz average one walk per 29 plate appearances. Frenchy averaged one every 20 plate appearances. If your leadoff hitter isn’t a base-stealer… fine. But you want you leadoff guy to at least take a pitch every now and then.

By Lew

October 7, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

KC-But given that the Braves are not interested in obtaining a leadoff hitter, your only choices would be Prado (if Marcus is traded), Renteria or Diaz. Not sure they would want to move Edgar from #2, so that leaves Prado or Diaz. Diaz is the better option, unless McCann’s Daddy can tutor Prado.

By KC

October 7, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Lew:

I’m not sure that the Braves said they aren’t interested in a leadoff hitter. They just expressed that they didn’t think it absolutely necessary to have a proto-typical leadoff hitter, and that pitching is far and away their first priority. But I agree with you that it’s unlikely the Braves will be going after Carl Crawford, Juan Pierre, or anyone like that. I also agree with the Braves brass that it shouldn’t be their top priority (though it would be nice to have a true leadoff hitter).

Right now, my vote would be to give Willy Aybar a shot at paying 2B and leading off. He did a good job there while filling in for Chipper. If he falters, then try Prado. But why not give him a shot?

By KC

October 7, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

I think the Braves have the resources (in tradable talent) to go after pitching and a leadoff hitter.

Giles will be on the block. After hitting .327 of 300 at-bats, Matt Diaz certainly has some trade value. The Braves also have some young talent that there isn’t any room for. Scott Thorman and Saltalamachia come to mind.

I think that if the Braves go after a starting pitcher it will be a top-of-the-rotation caliber guy, or they won’t bother. You’ve already got Smoltz, Hampton, Hudson (who I think the Braves still have confidence in and believe he will bounce back), James, and HoRam. Frankly, anything less than a top-of-the-rotation type of pitcher wouldn’t be an upgrade.

If the Braves do go after pitching by way of trade, they will likely offer a pitcher or two in return because they’re already stocked 1-5 with a Davies and Cormier waiting in the wings. The Braves have plenty of trade bait.

But in the end, I don’t think the Braves will make any changes to their starting staff because again, it would take a pretty darn good pitcher to constitute and upgrade, and I don’t know what team is willing to give up a top-tier, reasonably priced starting pitcher. If they can’t pull off a deal for another top-tier pitcher, why not invest some of those resources in a leadoff hitter?

By Paul

October 7, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

IF the braves deal Jones and Giles is not resigned…..That would free up payroll and perhaps they could make a run at a certain pitcher in Miami. As for Crawford…the braves should make a run at signing him. Hes young, had 18 triples, and has a lot of pop in his bat. He would transform the braves lineup…when was the last time the braves had a guy who could swipe over 40 bases? (Otis?) Unfortunately, signing both Willis and Crawford would require funds that the braves do not have. (even with the departure of Giles and the 50/50 shot of trading Jones)

By Robert

October 7, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

Diaz’s OBP before this year was .288

Small sample, but consider that this year, he batted a lot higher than you’d expect given his K/BB ratio, and he hardly ever walks - so that good OBP this year was mostly from hits

Now, if you figure his ba will drop down to what you’d expect for a guy with his K/BB ratio - (.280 would be real good) and that he walks once every thirty at-bats

Now you’re looking at a leadoff hitter with an OBP struggling to stay above .300

That’s totally unacceptable

The guy is a backup player - no more

By Robert

October 7, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

Now an interesting question

So who are the true leadoff hitters any more?

Ichiro - If Abreau’s power outage is real then he becomes as good as any

Who are the guys who have a consistant OBP of .350+, 30+ steals, and not many home runs

By Robert

October 7, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

Cmon guys, there’s no need to go after pitching - starters or relievers

Just gotta do something about that one bad pitch every game :P

Picture Kyle Davies, Jorge Sosa, and Chris Reitsma sitting in the bullpen during a game

Kyle turns to the other two and says

“So how do you guys hold your doubles?”

By KC

October 7, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

Paul:

I’m assuming your “certain pitcher in Miami” is Dontrelle Willis. It is extremely unlikely that Andruw will be going anywhere is winter. Even if Jones were dealt, that would have nothing to do with going after Dontrelle, because money is not the central issue there. Dontrelle will still be a relative bargain for a couple more years. The issue is that, first of all, the Marlins haven’t displayed any interest in parting with him. If they do, they will want a king’s ransom in return. And with so many contending teams desperate for starting pitching, they would probably get it.

They Braves can not “sign” either Willis or Crawford. Neither are eligible for free agency for at least a couple more seasons. They would have to trade for them .Both would be great additions, but would require the Braves to give up a great deal in return. Both scenarios are highly unlikely.

By Robert

October 7, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

When’s the last time the Braves had a 40 stolen base guy?

Furcal with 46 in ‘05

FYI Renteria has had a 40 steal season. Lofton - Grissom - Otis

There’s no real need for a running game

(not my idea, I heard a brilliant manager say so once :P)

By KC

October 7, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

Robert:

I’m with you on the Diaz-leadoff thing. But I’m not sure I agree that Diaz is “a backup player - no more”.

Diaz was given a grant total of 119 at-bats over the course of his first 3 big-league seasons. This season was the only opportunity Diaz has ever been given to prove himself, and when a guy hits .327 over 300 at-bats, I say he deserves a closer look. I was really disappointed in BC for continuing to split the LF playing time late in the season between Diaz and Langerhanz. I thought Diaz had earned the full-time job. Unless we pick up someone like Juan Pierre, Diaz should absolutely be our opening day starter in LF.

By bruce

October 7, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

How about Kelly Johnson coming back to play second and lead-off? I think I have read somewhere that Bobby has commented on that possiblity… He used to be an Infielder before he came up as leftfielder for Braves… also has very good speed. Not remembering too much about his bat stats, but he was top guy year before lastin LF and had surgery for bad elbow, Tommy John this year….

By TennesseePaul

October 7, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

D@mnit. Got zinged by Robert over a typo.

Gotta prepare for the game today. Just a few hours away.

By KC

October 7, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Bruce:

That’s a good question. I know nothing about Johnson’s previous infield experience, but the Braves see him as a potential excellent contact hitter, and he developed a reputation as a disciplined hitter. He might be a good option, though I would think it more likely in LF than at 2B.

By Robert

October 7, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

That awful K/BB just makes me nervous that the batting average might well take a huge tumble

Diaz also had consistantly poor K/BB’s in the minors, and was let given up on by Kansas City and Tampa

I would take him over Langerhans (who is a middling fifth outfielder at best) but I wouldnt feel good with him as an every day player

By Robert

October 7, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this

TP - I hope you understand (and think you do) - the opinions are strong, but the personal needling is in good fun

Which doesnt change the fact that a lot of Tennessee fans are gonna be crying home to mama tonight after the Daawwwwwgs kick their behinds

By keith

October 7, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

OK so we are heck bent on trading andruw and not having giles back either, then trade A. jones to yankees fro A-ROD and maybe giles for cano but the latter part doesnt matter. just get A-ROD now while he can be had. plus he has alot a years left on that fat contract. problem is i do not know what to do with chipper. he is the new dale murphy, but its a business. so lets do this if we keep chipper, leading off playing 2nd kelly johnson, 2. cf francouer 3. c mccann 4. ss A-rod 5. 3rd chipper 6. 1st laroche 7. rf thorman 8. lf aybar and then trade renteria and hudson and use those fora 5th starter and a great middle reliver. smoltz, james, hampton, ramirez, and either thompson or our 5th starter pickup. we win the east going away by 21 games, win 1st round 3-0, win NLCS 4-0 and then make it a perfect sweep in the world series 4-0. oh i forgot to tell you we won 1329 regular season games and wickman has 51 saves with smoltz winning 24 games and hampton being comback player of the year going 18-6. only argument was at MVP with mccann, arod, chipper, and laroche finishing 1-2-3-and 5 in the voting. oh yeah francouer finish 9th in the voting. also mcann won the batting title with Arod having 57 hrs and chipper having 137 rbi’s. see you all next year with OUR AWESOME TEAN that JS and BOBBY puts together.

By B******

October 7, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this

looks like the bullsh&t blog is dying..

By Shaun Payne

October 7, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Shaun-That’s ok. I’ll take the second best catcher in all of baseball any day. Especially if he’s hitting .333 with 90+RBI. Just think what his numbers might have been if not for that ankle injury. His doubles would have gone way up, increasing slugging and OPS way past what Mauer had. Just how many did Brian hit off of the wall and had to stop at first because of his ankle?

As I said, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with McCann. I just believe Mauer will likely become an all-time great. I think the Johnny Bench-Carlton Fisk comparisons are pretty accurate. Bench is one of the top three catchers ever, while Fisk is in the top 10.

As far as OPS, it weighs on-base percentage equal to slugging, but they are not equal. On-base percentage is more important to run creation because it tell us how good a player is at avoiding outs.

Payne: OBP is great. I wish Francoeur’s was much higher. Power is sort of the “natural” gift. It can be improved, but not very drastically without artificial enhancers. OBP can be improved by nearly everyone in the game because it’s a matter of plate discipline. Mauer may never hit as many homeruns as McCann, but McCann could improve his OBP to equal Mauer’s.

McCann’s speed makes him more suitable deeper in the rotation. If McCann had a 500 OBP and a .250 SLG, but still ran with the same speed, he’d be pretty useless. Great at getting on base no doubt, but he’d be in a record number of double plays. His speed would make you think three times before you moved his OBP to the top of the order. His power and high average are what’s great and it fits perfectly in the middle part of the order. This makes him a very good candidate for a 5th spot or deeper. Especially since he’s a lefty and we have a righty cleanup hitter.

All this isn’t to say I don’t like Mauer of course, but I perfer McCann over Mauer.

As I said, on-base percentage is more important to run creation than other stats because it tells us how good a player is at avoiding outs. (Batting average just tells us how good a player is at getting a hit in plate appearances where he doesn’t walk, get hit by the pitch or get a sacrifice, which is why on-base percentage is better than batting average.)

If McCann posted a .500 on-base percentage in a season with the same foot speed he has now, it would be one of the seasons in baseball history—he would be far from useless. Baserunners are the only way a team can score. If you have a player with a .500 on-base percentage in a significant number of plate appearances, all things being equal you are going to score more runs with him than you would with a player with .400 on-base percentage.

And, you are right, on-base percentage does improve; it usually goes up as a player gets older. I’m not so sure if power is more of a “natural” gift. The book MoneyBall talks a little bit about how things like plate discipline (which would improve on-base percentage) is as natural as other skills. While Francouer is likely to greatly improve his plate dicipline, he’s never going to walk 100 times a year (unless maybe his intentional walks rise a great deal).

So we would expect Mauer and McCann’s on-base percentages to improve. Mauer’s career OBP is .399, McCann’s is .376. Both are impressive, but I see no reason to believe McCann’s is going to suddenly become better than Mauer’s. Nothing wrong with McCann’s, but Mauer’s is more impressive.

But all this really doesn’t matter much. As a Braves fan, McCann is just fine. In fact, financially it is likely better that the Braves have McCann. But I think if we are objective about it, Mauer is better and will likely put together the better career. But, barring injury, I think they both have a decent shot at Hall of Fame careers.

By Robert

October 7, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

FYI - It seems that Alex Rodriguez will be batting eigth today against the Tigers

8-Rod

By Robert

October 7, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

OBP vs SLG

What’s better - a single every time or a double every other time?

Well of course if it’s for everybody, the single every time - because then no one ever makes an out and you score to infinity

But in reality - and if someone has these statistics, it would be great

Leadoff single - how often is the run plated overall in the bigs.

Same for leadoff double

Along these same lines the worst outcome for any hitter is a strikeout, because, barring the dropped ball by the catcher or the steal, the batter cant advance the runner and therefore cant even help create a run with a strikeout

In the same way the ultimate sin for a pitcher is to give up the walk - a free baserunner for which the batter didnt have to put the ball in play and therefore take a chance of making an out

Fundamental baseball - something that has been sorely lacking in Atlanta since about the middle of 1990

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

Well I guess that’s how Auburn solves the SEC/BCS controversy; get their a*******es kicked by Arkansas. WAR CHICKEN!

Robert, after losing our kicker for the season our defense has to cover a multitude of sins; good thing nobody expects them to. Go Dawgs! WOOF WOOF WOOF

By Lew

October 7, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

People-Andruw will not be traded. I refer you to my 1:50 post yesterday afternoon with the JS quote. It won’t happen. As far as trading him to the Yankees for ARod. Good God, are you serious? Why would we ditch Andruw’s $13.5 million salary for ARod’s $25million salary? That is sheer insanity. We don’t need a shortstop, we already have Edgar. We don’t need a third baseman (except for 30-40 games a year), we have Chipper. Come to think of it, we don’t need anymore offense. We have one of the most potent offenses in the NL. WE NEED PITCHING. This is the area JS has said he will address. We are not getting a leadoff hitter. Get it out of your minds. Get trading Andruw out of your minds-he doesn’t want to go. Giles will be traded to free up salary for pitching and he will be traded for more pitching. Pitching is where we will add players. That’s it.

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Lew, where do you feel the Braves will look to adress the team shortcomings, position-wise? :-)

By KC

October 7, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this

THE YANKEES ARE LOSING!!!!! YES!!!!!!!

By Matthew

October 7, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

Hey Grinch!

I’ll teach you new chant, not War Eagle, but…

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

PIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

SOIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

My Hogs showed up and cleaned Aubbie’s clock today. I guess Tuberville will stay quiet about, “We need a playoff.” “We got cheated in 2004,” ad nauseum.

Woo Pig Soiee and Go Braves!

By KC

October 7, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Grinch:

When you say “position-wise”, do you mean position players as in non-pitching? If so, I don’t understand your question. I don’t think we have any shortcomings at any position. In the lineup we lack a true leadoff hitter, but that’s it. This lineup is stocked 1-8.

As far as pitching is concerned, the only glaring need is for a proven setup man to replace Baez, who will almost certainly be leaving. Aside from that, I doubt they’ll do much to the bullpen. By the end of the season, both McBride and Yates were really showing Atlanta something, and Paronto was solid all year. Add Blaine Boyer and John Foster, and I’m not sure the Braves have any need to look outside for middle relief.

I think Atlanta will look for any opportunity to upgrade in the starting rotation, but it’s not going to be easy.

Personally, I think the Braves still have confidence in Tim Hudson and feel that he will bounce back. I have heard multiple of the Braves veterans volunteering such premonitions. Emphasis on volunteering. If a player is asked, of course they’re going to say “yeah we believe in Huddy”, but I’ve heard a number of the Braves players and coaching staff, and former players offering unsolicited votes of confidence in Huddy for next season. If that feeling (that he will bounce back strong next season) is common throughout the organization, then I wouldn’t expect to see Hudson going anywhere.

Anyway, I think the Braves still see Smoltz, Hudson, and Hampton as their big 3 next season, along with 2 more than capable young lefties in James and Ramirez. The fact is, the Braves are already stocked 1-5. If they can add another top-tier starter, they will. Otherwise, I don’t see them changing anything in the rotation. Hampton and Ramirez coming back healthy may be change enough.

By Shaun Payne

October 7, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Yes, an extra-base hit is better than a single or a walk, but slugging percentage is a lot like batting average—it doesn’t take into account walks or hit by pitch. Slugging percentage is total bases divided by at bats—walks and HBP don’t count as total bases or at-bats. OPS is good but it weighs slugging a little too heavy. The best measure would be (total bases + walks + hit by pitch) divided by plate appearance.

Actually, a simple runs created formula is on-base percentage times total bases. Here’s something from Baseball-Almanac.com:

Runs Created = On Base Percentage x Total Bases

This statistic was originally created by Bill James to measure a player’s total offensive production. By combining the two statistical (OBP and TB which are listed on this page) results you can determine that desired production. Bill James describes it by saying scoring runs consists of two actions: First - getting on base or creating baserunners (which is on base percentage) and Second - the advancing of those runners around the bases (which is total bases). A superb stat that creates a great index for offensive ratings.

Also, a strikeout is not the worse thing a hitter could do. How about hitting into a double play, or better yet, a triple play?

If strikeouts are so bad, why is Jim Thome more productive than Eric Young was? Strikeouts are bad because they are outs, but they aren’t worse than making two or three outs on one pitch.

By KC

October 7, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

LEW & KEITH:

I think it’s a foregone conclusion that if the Yankees trade A-Rod anywhere, they would have to pay up a huge chuck of his salary. It would be great to see A-Rod in a Braves uni. Yes, we already have a solid shortstop, but you always have to keep your eyes open for an upgrade. A-Rod is one of only a handful of shortstops (even though he’s playing 3rd right now) that would constitute an upgrade on Renteria.

I’m sure it’ll never happen though… at least not anytime soon. The Yankees aren’t going to trade A-Rod this winter. If some of his recent problems carry over and he is still struggling well into next season, they’ll consider it. But they’re not anxious to ship one of the games premier players off and have to eat the 40 million they would likely have to pick up in order to move him.

Lew, you are correct is saying that Andruw isn’t going anywhere. Clearly he isn’t. The Braves aren’t in any hurry to part with him and Andruw certainly isn’t in any hurry to go. The Braves will make every effort to resign him, he’ll either accept the offer or walk, and that will be that. With that in mind, I’m not sure who we would give the Yankees for A-Rod. They’re never interested in prospects because they always have the money to fill their roster with established stars, and we certainly aren’t going to part with any of our pitching. For all these reasons, I see no possibility of an A-Rod deal for Atlanta. Nice to daydream about though.

By KC

October 7, 2006 06:22 PM | Link to this

Lew:

You say we need pitching. I keep wondering this aloud, but what pitching do we need and who exactly should we try to acquire????

Other than a proven setup man to replace Baez… what do we need?????

Our rotation looks good 1-5, and with the afore mentioned need for an 8th inning guy, our bullpen looks good for next year as well.

In your opinion, who should the Braves go after?

By KC

October 7, 2006 06:28 PM | Link to this

Mark Feinsand of MLB.com reports the following:

“DETROIT — After playing first base on Friday for the first time since Sept. 19, Jason Giambi requested and received a cortisone injection in his right shoulder as a precautionary measure.”

Suuure… it was a cortisone shot… I wonder if he got it from his regular special cortisone supplier?

By Lew

October 7, 2006 06:58 PM | Link to this

KC-I think we need at least one more solid starter. I’m as certain as anyone can be that Hampton will come back strong, but the truth is we just don’t know. Also, Hudson is a BIG question mark. Right now he’s ok as a fourth starter, but is certainly (to this point) not the ace we envisioned. With his salary skyrocketing for 08, I could see him being traded for what we can get, thereby freeing more salary. It would not surprise me to see JS try to get two middle of rotation pitchers AND an 8th inning guy. I’m really not sure about Horacio, either. He’s been injured a whole lot in his career and we have no indication of how he will come back next year. I can actually see the Braves trying to unload him or maybe not offering arbitration to avoid a huge raise. I doubt this would happen, but he is definitely a question mark. Davies is another big if. He was terrible after his injury and needs major work before he is ML ready. I’m very hopeful we found a jewel in Chuck James, but one season (and not a full one at that), is not necessarily indicative of a career. I think JS will do what is necessary to bring the starting staff back where it should, but don’t be surprised if the current look changes somewhat.

By elbravox

October 7, 2006 07:28 PM | Link to this

there is a baseball god.

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

Hee-hee! “Yankees eliminated” are two of my favorite words!

Matthew, somehow I figured we’d see your smiling face today. I was at the 2002 SEC championship game at the dome, and Arkansas fans were so classy and polite it was hard to rub it in. Thanks for humbling the chickens. Suuuiiieeeee!

KC, I was being sarcastic towards Lew; asking him what area he thought the Braves ought to bolster when he had just launched a tirade about pitching.

GO DAWGS

By David O'Brien

October 7, 2006 07:49 PM | Link to this

KC, I’m guessing from your comments about A-Rod that you didn’t read the Sports Illustrated story about him. Correct? Because there were all kinds of red flags raised in that story. Talk about an unlikeable player … that story just painted a picture of a guy who’s not a good teammate and won’t acknowledge when he’s slumping or not getting key hits. It’s all about stats to him, not big hits or winning.

If you read all of that SI story, all those comments from teammates about what a stats-first, me-first player he is, you’d know what a bad fit he’d probably be in the Braves clubhouse. Not to mention the Yankees aren’t going to pay part of his salary to trade him, because the Rangers are already paying a huge chunk of his salary. Any team that can’t afford to pay A-Rod $16 mill or whatever it is he’s making now per year, isn’t going to get him.

Why is it that every team he’s been part of his better after he leaves? Just coincidence? I’m just asking. Seems like a pattern to me, and I haven’t heard ONE player, not one, say he’s a good teammate or a clutch player. Never.

By the way, I don’t know what he did today, but just now I went back and looked at what he’s done in the postseason. He was 5-for-43 (.116) in 12 games since Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS vs. Boston, and the Yanks were 3-9 in those 12 games.

In 38 at-bats in his last 11 postseason games before today, he had one extra-base hit (double), no RBIs and 12 Ks.

By dadgum

October 7, 2006 08:00 PM | Link to this

I think most all the comments about the starting pitching needs are correct. The starter we acquire must be a #1 or #2 rotation caliber guy. Anything less we already have. My guess is that Hudson will be kept and Ramirez sent to middle relief unless traded. By getting another starter either Hudson or Ramirez will get bumped. Take your pick. We will know soon and I expect to get some direction from Andruw very quick on his intentions. I am sure JS has sent the message to Andruw that time is of the essence. Andruw needs to let the Braves know he can be signed to an extension so the Brave scan get the other parts in place to make the team a good bet for the playoffs. We have Wick which is huge. There aren’t many more huge parts once the Andruw / Giles situations are complete.

By David O'Brien

October 7, 2006 08:00 PM | Link to this

Dadgum, September When It Comes was on Rosanne’s excellent 2003 CD, Rules of Travel. God, what a powerful song. When The Man comes into the song … chilling. Beautiful.

I’m with you on Seven-Year Ache, probably my favorite of hers. “My Baby Thinks He’s a Train” is also great. Both produced by her old hubby Rodney Crowell….

By Torre!Torre!Torre!

October 7, 2006 08:05 PM | Link to this

Uh oh. George isn’t gonna like this.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 7, 2006 08:11 PM | Link to this

Auburn and the Yankees trounced on the same day. It just doesn’t get any better than this.

No offense — no one hates the Aubs more than I do — but I notice the Arkansas fans are a lot more vocal in their Auburn bashing after the game than before.

But when you put a 27-10 asskicking to a team you thought sure would whip you, I guess you forget your manners.

The SEC race suddenly got a whole lot more interesting.

By David O'Brien

October 7, 2006 08:11 PM | Link to this

Was that a celebration by the Tigers, or what? Good for them. Long time coming. A baseball town is revived.

Leyland reminded me so much of his post-series celebration in 1997 World Series when I was covering the Marlins. The man just gets the best from his players in the postseason, no question. Great, great manager.

Dadgum, TommyB, Grinch, Georgetown Kid, et al: While I’m thinking of it, gotta recommend another band almost as highly as Black Keys, and I keep forgetting to do so, so here goes: The Greenhornes. Great straight-ahead, retro-sounding garage rock. Tons of guitar and I think a Moog. Tremendous music you’ll never hear on radio. Try some of the songs off “Sewed Soles” CD, which is a compilation of their stuff from other EPs and albums. I just know you guys will love it, especially those of you who grew up on 60s and 70s rock.

By JJMB

October 7, 2006 08:42 PM | Link to this

Well, well. The Yankees are gone, NO f-ing subway series, at least. And Sheffield dropped a couple, sweet.

Now, the Muts. Is it me, or do the Mut unis just look cheesy? Almost garish. No, they’re garish.

Tech won, and if the bow-wow nation takes it in the Sheffield, today was worth waking up to.

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 08:55 PM | Link to this

Tom A. Hawk, it DOES get better than this. WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF!!!!!!

By Bob, journalist

October 7, 2006 08:58 PM | Link to this

I may have overdosed on Maple syrup … but I didn’t miss watchin’ Mister Wonderful at third, Sheff playing first … or ole Joe in the dugout … watchin’ the Yankees kinda makes one feel proud that we have the Braves in Atlanta with Adam at first and Bobby cheering ‘em on!

I wonder what would happen if a bunch of “stars” elected free agency and nobody showed any interest …

By Clayton Fuller

October 7, 2006 09:02 PM | Link to this

DOB, do you believe there will be any Andruw for A-Rod rumors popping up soon. I would like to see on blog on that. In your opinion would he fit in the Braves plans (obviously if the Yanks took on some contract)

By MEB

October 7, 2006 09:08 PM | Link to this

Dawgs are looking pretty good right now. They are kicking the “Sheffield” outta them Vols. The SEC is totally unpredictable and maddening. Auburn lost more than a game today because they were in a prime position for a national title run. Now is Florida that good or was it a bad game by LSU?

DOB… you are right about the victory celebration in Detroit as it was well deserved and a long time in coming.

By JJMB

October 7, 2006 09:27 PM | Link to this

FSU gets beat. If only Clemson would have lost. Tech will move up at least one spot.

Come on Smoky!

Furcal, Lofton, and Drew are killing the Dodgers.

By Bob, journalist

October 7, 2006 09:37 PM | Link to this

10 Paul,

How you choose to obtain your “malted beverages” is your affair … but Robert is trying to sucker you … he read somewhere that longtime managers usually have bad last years and their replacements usually benefit from the team being energized from the change … still, it might be a good bet to take. I imagine that a better side bet would be that Robert will revert to his favorite topic before the other bet is decided.

By Bob, journalist

October 7, 2006 09:47 PM | Link to this

I can’t imagine A-Rod fitting into anyone’s plans … not if they consider team chemistry to be important. I really don’t blame A-Rod, he probably was abused as a child.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 10:09 PM | Link to this

Good evening, folks.

I posed this question last night and I will now pose it again. Who is the bigger choker? The Braves or the Yankess. It is now six seasons since the Yanks last won a WS. Three since they were in one and they shouldn’t have been in that one. Lets think about this. Over the last six seasons the Braves’ payroll has averaged $90 million. However, the overall talent of the team has been a B+ at best. The Yankees have averaged $200 million with a talent level of an A.

So many on here are quick to point out the success of Torre when dumping on Cox or the success of the Yanks when dumping on the Braves as a team. But, here we are just finishing watching the greatest lineup in the history of the game get shut down. The Tigers pitching shut them down for three games in a row. Not just the “whuppin boy”, A-Rod. Golden Boy Jeter was shut down. The great Sheffield, Giambi, Matsui, and Posada were nowhere to be seen. The “kid’ Cano was a no-go. So, again, who is the biggest choker? I am interested in everyone’s opinion.

Does this mean Torre sucks as a manager. A certain individual has devoted each and every day over the last year to state how badly Cox sucks because the Braves haven’t been to a WS since 1999. And he may be right. But, now sits Torre who has had an all-star team for a lineup the last six years without a title. The man had the single greatest roster of hitters ever assembled this year and could only muster six runs in the last three games and one of those games was a shutout. The Yanks had the great Randy Johnson and the ever terrific Mike Mussina. Not to mention the greatest closer to ever live.

Oh, I just had an epiphany! I’ll tell you why the Yanks like the Braves haven’t been able to win a WS lately. Pitching. Pitching. Pitching! The Yanks didn’t have it. Johnson is old and broken down. His record this year had much more to do with that offense than it ever did with him. Same for Mussina. Wang is a star in the making. But, he’s not an ace. Jaret Wright was a reformation project of Leo Mazzone’s. But, once he was away from ‘ol Leo he reverted back to his normal self. The Yanks bullpen in reality was no better than the Braves. Proctor and Farnsworth were great when beating up on the Devil Rays but under the spotlight and against real teams they struggled. Again, they were bailed out by that offense much more than anyone wants to admit. Rivera is a great, but what good is he if you can’t get to him.

The Yanks proved that for all the hitting its pitching that wins in October. Its the reason the Astros beat the Braves the last two seasons. Its the reason the Red Sox knocked off the Yanks in ‘04.

For anyone who thinks the Yanks will match the Braves consecutive title streak they better re-watch the last three days. The Yanks as we know them are about to fall apart. No way can A-Rod stay in NY without those people wanting to lynch him. But, who will take him. I’m 100% positive he could lead another team to a title but with that contract who will take him and what ridiculous demands will the Yankees make? Fact is though he is gone. No way he stays there. You wanna know why? Because the captain, Derek Jeter, will demand that he be sent packing. Jeter doesn’t like the guy no matter what he says. I don’t think A-Rod is that bad of a teammate. Interesting no one in Seattle or Texas ever complained about him. Just in NY. Why? Well, if Derek doesn’t like you, then we can’t really either. You know like in high school. You really did like that guy but because you were part of the “cool” crowd you had to keep your distance. I’m not saying Jeter is the bad guy here. Its just the way it is.

I almost feel sorry for them. Torre, Giambi, Abreu, Mussina, Damon, Posada, and Rivera are good guys. So, is Jeter. So is A-Rod. The fact is there is no such thing as a championship team who has all-stars at every position. Never has been in any sport and there never will be. If the Boss didn’t have a stroke before, I guarantee he is having one now. And Cashman’s days of “total control” are over. Short lived as they were. Heads will roll. For the fourth straight year the Yankees weren’t just eliminated from the playoffs they were embarrassingly degradingly ejected from the playoffs. In fact, the only guy on that team that is guaranteed a job next year including Torre is Jeter. Torre is gone. Guarantee it. The evil empire’s dynasty isn’t crumbling. Its crumbled. Sad day in NY. And God forbid the Mets actually win the WS. George’s head will literally pop right off his shoulders.

By Lew

October 7, 2006 10:12 PM | Link to this

DOB-I got the Black Keys (the new one) today. I definitely like them better than the White Stripes and probably as well as anything new I’ve heard lately. However, I keep asking myself (about them and the White Stripes) where is the bass? I think both of those guitarists would benefit greatly by drummers worthy of their guitar playing and I’d like to hear them in a full band-not just this garage arrangement. Hope the Dawgs Defense can hold up in this game.

By Calvin

October 7, 2006 10:13 PM | Link to this

I guess the Yankees haven’t figured out that you can’t buy a title anymore with so many good teams out there.

By flbravesgirl

October 7, 2006 10:17 PM | Link to this

Congrats to the Tigers. Considering their struggles in recent years, their fans must be over the moon. And anything that ticks Steinbrenner off is good to me.

Now do y’all think Fox is excited over the A’s vs. Tigers series? ;-)

I was very saddened to hear of Buck O’Neil’s passing. It’s a travesty that he was not voted into the HOF this year with the rest of the Negro Leagues inductees.

By JJMB

October 7, 2006 10:18 PM | Link to this

Hell, Bob. I’d take A.Rod in a picosecond. 31yo w/ 464HRs? Of course the money thing is a huge barrier.

After all, chemistry can be colloidally dispersed.

By JJMB

October 7, 2006 10:28 PM | Link to this

Smokey bites UGA. OUCH!!!!!!!

By The Grinch

October 7, 2006 10:38 PM | Link to this

I could’ve taken the Dawgs getting blown out from the get go. Hell, that’s what everyone in the country predicted. But to be up 24-7 at home, give it up, battle back and show your integrity and make it a game through 3 quarters and just completely lay down in the 4th (when your spotless record is OWED to you being a 4th quarter team and Tenn. sux in the 4th) is just one of the painfully ugliest things I’ve seen in a while. I may be off-line for a bit.

By JJMB

October 7, 2006 10:39 PM | Link to this

uga bites back! What a game.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 10:47 PM | Link to this

I’m not a huge A-Rod fan. I don’t dislike the guy either. But, it irritates me when someone gets a raw deal and I think this guy is. It is very interesting to me that all of a sudden A-Rod is a bad teammate. He secludes himself from the team. He won’t admit when he is in a slump. Funny you never heard this stuff in Seattle or Texas. You would think that either Showalter or Pinnela would have commented on such behavior since both have disdain for such attitudes in their clubhouses. None of this was mentioned in 2004. But now that A-Rod has been there three years and no three peat of WS titles has followed he is a horrible guy. Doesn’t make sense to me. Just doesn’t add up.

Giambi has been there the last four years and no one is blaming him. Sheffield has been there the same amount of time and no one is blaming him. Johnson the last two. Again no blame. Mussina the last four. Again no blame. Maybe A-Rod is bad for team chemistry. Just funny how that was never mentioned about him until he got to NY. In fact, the Mariners raved about his attitude.

If A-Rod is the problem, how do the Yankees and everyone who is on this “hate A-Rod” kick explain the previous three years before A-Rod?

I’m not saying the guy is or is not a jerk or a bad teammate. I’m simply saying take everything into account. Ask yourselves. Would you be dissin’ the guy if he wasn’t making all that money? Would you really not want him here or on your favorite team? Is it really A-Rod or is it NY and everything that comes with that place?

By flbravesgirl

October 7, 2006 11:05 PM | Link to this

Wow, Robert(jitb), that’s quite an epic. Good post. The strange part, IMO, is that we always heard about how ARod and Jeter were the best of friends… until they became teammates. I don’t know much about ARod personally but friends in Tampa who run into Jeter frequently during spring training tell me he’s a nice guy, very down-to-earth.

I hope Torre’s job is not in jeopardy. I think he’s a good manager and a good guy. (My dislike of the Yankees has to do with ol’ George rather than any of the guys on the team or coaches.)

The problem in the postseason (esp. in the 5 game series; that needs to be 7) is that everything is magnified. Every weakness gets exposed. Any little mistake or even just some bad luck can be the one thing that turns the tide against you. I know some here will disagree with me, but to win the World Series you have to be good and lucky. If the best team always won, baseball could just cancel the postseason and award the championship to the team with the best record. Anything can happen. So no, I don’t think Joe Torre is a bad manager just because they haven’t won it all recently.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 7, 2006 11:17 PM | Link to this

I don’t either. I think that this was actually Torre’s best managerial job. Two of his biggest stars were injured the majority of the year. His starting rotation was awful. His bullpen was worse. He kept them in it when it looked like the Red Sox were going to run away. I think the Yanks suffered the same fate as so many. They ran up against superior pitching. I agree with you that it takes both talent and luck to win the WS. The best team doesn’t always win. 2003 is a great example. That WS didn’t feature the two best teams from each league. The Red Sox were better than the Yankees that year and the Cubs were better than the Marlins.

By NLCHAMPS

October 8, 2006 12:13 AM | Link to this

Take note braves fans. The Mets showed you how you get out of the first round of a playoff series……you see, it wasn’t that hard. 3-0 sweep of the Dodgers. So much for: Wait til the Mets face better pitching in the playoffs…….LETS GO METS!!!

By Tom A. Hawk

October 8, 2006 12:18 AM | Link to this

RJIB —

No matter the answer to your question, it’s better to turn choker after four rings than to turn choker after one.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 8, 2006 12:23 AM | Link to this

Sympathies, Grinch. You’ll live to woof another day.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 01:15 AM | Link to this

The Yanks have spent $1.2 billion (give or take $50 mill or so) on player payroll in the past six years and won as many World Series in that span as the Braves have _ and one fewer than the Marlins in that span.

Talk about $200 mill not buying what it used to….

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 01:33 AM | Link to this

Went to the game tonight. As I creeped through the endless traffic at the stadium, I saw a few fights break out. Now, this is nothing new. But when I got to my section, the cops had blocked off the entrance to the ailse so they could escort out a perp who had just beaten down an old man. No problem, I’ll just walk the other way. Bad game that it was, the Dodgers came back, got the lead, then promptly blew. This resulted in yet another machismo display of a cholo beating down a female Dodger employee and then pushing an 80 year old man down the steps. Two more fights broke out after that.

Dodger stadium contains some of the worst “fans” in America. On top of that, the Dodgers played like the Dodgers. They sucked. What a freakin day. At least the Tigers won. They kicked the crap out of the Yanks.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 01:41 AM | Link to this

Well, Tom A. Hawk, those four rings aren’t going to do much for Torre it looks like because unlike Bobby Cox he will be unemployed.

By Bob, journalist

October 8, 2006 01:46 AM | Link to this

JJMB,

I like a man who can make quick decisions! If dispersial of the money is an issue, they could send some of it to me … if they gave me all of it, I’d make some quick decisions too … and, it would probably only take me a few million picoseconds to spend it.

Wasn’t it Andruw who said … in effect “I want to be here but if they don’t want me, then … I’m gone in a picosecond second!”

My comments were mostly just rants …

Evaluating and judging “Super Stars” in a team sport is complex and difficult … especially for those of us looking in from the outside. I do think that A-Rod loves A-Rod but then we all have egos and successful athletes must have a high level of selfconfidence … maintaining good team chemistry is vital to success and adding A-Rod to the mix could easily result in a highly volatile potion … therefore, I’d be again it … life is a tough enough row to hoe as it is.

I think folks generally overreact to playoff loses but I do think the Yankees will make significant changes after this latest defeat.

51 - 33 … the best dogs in both Atlanta and Athens today were found at the Varsity!

By The Grinch

October 8, 2006 02:13 AM | Link to this

ESPN.com reports the New York Daily News reports Torre’s getting fired…to be replaced by Lou Pinella. For some reason, A-rod (and even more baffling, Cashman) will be keeping their jobs. Go figure.

Dance your dance all this rebuilding year, Bob; it’ll come back to haunt you the next three when Calvin Johnson goes to the NFL and our two-headed freshman-QB carousel remembers neither one of them lost a game in high school.

GO DAWGS

By The Grinch

October 8, 2006 02:31 AM | Link to this

My Sheffield’s sore. This bites. Oh, well; builds character. G’night.

By berigan

October 8, 2006 03:10 AM | Link to this

I’m surprised by the number of folks that don’t think we need to improve our starting pitching. Yankees have a much better offense than we do, and were swept in the first round. I have always respected Mike Hampton, he is quite the competitor, but he hasn’t pitched 200 innings since 2001. He is 34, and has pitched 69 innings in the past 2 seasons. What can one realistically expect from him in 2007? 200 + innings? Doesn’t seem likely. Hudson had an E.R.A. of almost 5, really hard to do in the N.L. In Hudson’s 35 starts, only 14 were quality starts(6 or more innings, 3 or less runs)Horacio Ramirez in only 14 starts, had 8 quality starts(Shows how bad he was when he didn’t make a QS) In 25 starts, Chuck James had only 11 quality starts, but I think he was taken out quite a few times before pitching 6 innings. Smoltz, in 35 starts had 24 that were of the quality variety. But he is 40, and pitched in 232 innings this year, the most innings he has tossed since 1997.

So guys(and gals) of the 5 mentioned above, how many do you think will make 30+ starts, and pitch 200+ innings next year? What if 2 get hurt in April? Hope for the wildcard again? Do y’all think the Mets will not improve their starting pitching for next year?

If the Marlins can somehow hold onto Dontrelle, they will have the best starting pitching in the N.L. The Phils have money to spend as well….We aren’t in a mediocre division anymore.

By Head Coach

October 8, 2006 04:16 AM | Link to this

Great pitching beats great hitting any day of the week and twice on sunday. the Yankees didnt choke , they got the tar beat out of them. The A.L. will dominate the World Series , count on it. It looks like the Dogs are just another run of the mill 9-3 or 10-2 football team. Ditto Berigan , the Bravos need more pitching. A lot more.

By NLCHAMPS

October 8, 2006 07:58 AM | Link to this

Braves watching at home, Yanks watching at home……..How sweet it is.

By Robert

October 8, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

“So many on here are quick to point out the success of Torre when dumping on Cox or the success of the Yanks when dumping on the Braves as a team”

Hello? Torre losing a series he wasnt supposed to doesnt make Cox a better manager

If Cox had managed the Braves this year, Detroit wouldve faced Boston in the ALDS

If Cox had managed Detroit, the White Sox wouldve played the Yankees

By DCDave

October 8, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this

This longtime Braves fan-in-exile on the Potomac agrees completely with all the postings re: the importance of pitching in postseason. Permit an observation - the Bravos have been in a massive re-building program the past couple of seasons, the full results still lie in the future. Here’s a snapshot of what some key players let go during this rebuilding did this October: Furcal - BA: .182, Runs: 0, RBI: 0; Drew - BA: .154, Runs: 1, RBI: 0 (baserunning: -100); Sheffield -BA: .083, Runs: 0, RBI: 0. Granted it was a short series, but which of these guys, had we kept them, would have put us over the top?

By mariner

October 8, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

DCDave, don’t forget about Jaret Wright imploding in Game 4. Who didn’t see that coming? And I didn’t see much of the Mets-Dodgers, but I did see Wilson Betemit airmailing a throw to 2nd into the outfield.

By Metropolitan Man

October 8, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

Morning bloggers. The METS may not face a challenge until the WS. The stankees are done and NY can now be reclaimed by the METS. I’m so much in awe, I really dont know what to say to you guys except…..LETS GO METS!!!

By Metropolitan Man

October 8, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

I now realize its not the core of a team that needs to be changed to motivate a team. Its the managers that need to be replaced after a team has peeked. Watching Torre now lets me know he is suffering from what B. cox has. My players have accomplished everything under me, what else is there but to win it all again. The only thing is you need new leadership to do it because these managers arent getting it done. They seem so laid back with the “we’ve been there and done that”, so there is no urgency from the manager pushing his players for postseason greatness. Cox, Torre, Pinella these great names will soon be looking for jobs if their bosses could just admit its them, and not the teams.

By The Grinch

October 8, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

At 1:30 in the morning, ESPN had a link up in bold letters saying “Report: Torre out, Lou in…Cashman keeps his job.” Now it’s a very small link that says “Torre out? For Lou?” It might as well scream “Which one of you dumb%$$es assured me this was true?” Great scoop, worldwide leader.

Sorry I missed you, Metro Man. Looks like you didn’t get to experience the “Glavine face” after all. New York can indeed be reclaimed by the Mets. Now if only it could be reclaimed by the ocean…:-)

Later, all. Gonna go catch “The Departed” at Phipps.

By Bob, journalist

October 8, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

Grinch, the thought is haunting me already … but it sometimes takes more than a few High School Harrys to make one decent College Joe.

Can you imagine my typing “therefore, I’d be again it … “? Another sign of old age and Daddy skimping on my education … “agin or against” as in opposed … but never “again it” as in tag.

By Metropolitan Man

October 8, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Its all good Grinch, I’m so hype right now, I could sleep with a braves fan. (female of course) We still have some games to attend at the ESPN zone. By my count the METS have 8 wins to go. We already have won 7 in a row (last 4 reg. games of season). Glavine did his job and the bullpen is doing theirs. The only wish is be able to get some tickets. Other than that its not even fun to gloat with you guys, its the stankee fans feeling METS fans wrath. See you guys later when we get crowned da Champs.

By Bob, journalist

October 8, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

I honestly think that if Robert were a preacher … he’s start Sunday Services with “In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth … but it was Noah and not God who allowed Bobby Cox to manage the animals on the Ark”.

Speaking of Church … later

By Patrick

October 8, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

DOB,

With the Yankees probably looking to shake things up and given that the lack of starting pitching was a big reason why they are out of the playoffs…you think there would be any way JS would try to pull off a deal to land AROD? Say Hudson and (i know this is a stretch) Renteria for him?

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

Robert, I didn’t say that Cox was a better manager than Torre. Please actually read the comments before commenting on them. I simply posed the question that if Cox gets dumped on for not winning when he should then shouldn’t Torre get the same treatment or is it a bit more complicated than blaming the managers.

If Torre get fired, I think it will be a travesty. Why? Because like Head Coach said earlier, the Yanks were out pitched pure and simple. Torre didn’t put together the pitching staff. Cashman and The Boss did but its Torre who’s taking the fall. If you objectively look back at the Braves’ postseason failures, you will realize that the great starting pitching we had in the reg. season never quite translated itself into the postseason on a consistent basis other than Smoltz.

I know many on here applaud Steinbrener’s ways of firing folks if immediate resluts aren’t seen. Keep this in mind, though. He fires people to cover up his mistakes. If he does indeed fire Torre, it will be to cover up the fact that he didn’t give him good pitching. I mean be real and think about it. He gave Pavano, who had one good year, five times more money than he deserved. He traded for Randy Johnson who was 41 and the last guy who would fit into New York. Mussina was a great signing at the time he did it, but the guy hasn’t been ace material for three years now. He signed Jaret Wright away from the Braves and made it seem like some earth shattering coup. It was freakin’ Jaret Wright. Ditto for Farnsworth. Anyone in their right mind knew that Farnsworth is not in his and NY would mess him up.

The fact is pitching wins championships and offense serves as a support. Teams can’t rely on offense solely to win. I should say starting pitching wins. That’s why the Braves have struggled in recent years. Their starting pitching wasn’t as good as the D-Back in ‘01, Giants in ‘02, Cubs in ‘03, and Astros in ‘04 and ‘05.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

I will give the devil his due. The Mets looked terrific against the Dodgers. Randolph managed his pitching situation as well as any manger I have ever seen. He gave his starters the ball and let them pitch but as soon as it was evident they were losing it some he took them out and went to the second best bullpen in all of baseball. See, that’s where the Mets and Yanks differed. Torre couldn’t just pull his starter and go to the pen becaue the pen was worse. Hmm. Same problem a certain nose picker in Atlanta had this year. Anyway, I disgress. The Mets will get to the WS because the Cards have less pitching than they do and the Padres can’t score.

One more thing and this is a compliment to the Mets and a huge criticism of the Braves. This Mets team has fun. You can see it in them. I love the way Reyes clinches his fists and yells. The entire team shows emotion and has fun playing. Randolph allows them to be themselves. Cox does have the Braves a bit too tight to me. You rarely see that emotion. Now, thats fine if you have a roster full of non emotional guys, but that’s not the case. McCann, Francoeur, Giles, Langerhans, James, and Smoltz are the type of guys that like to yell, scream, pump their fists, and thump their chests. There’s nothing wrong with that. However, there is something wrong with stiffling it.

By KC

October 8, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

DOB: No, I didn’t realize any of those things about A-Rod. I just knew that he had been struggling lately. It’s a non-issue anyway. A-Rod to Atlanta will never happen.

By Robert

October 8, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

“Robert, I didn’t say that Cox was a better manager than Torre. Please actually read the comments before commenting on them. I simply posed the question that if Cox gets dumped on for not winning when he should then shouldn’t Torre get the same treatment “

First off, it wasnt just directed at you. I anticipated some other comments, particularly since I told Tennessee Paul the Dawgs were gonna whup up on the Vols (50 points, gawd that hurt to watch)

Anyway - The reason Cox should get dumped on is because he consistantly loses to worse teams in the playoffs even when he has a huge pitching edge

Torre and the Yankees should be embarrassed by this loss, but then again, the Tigers had better starting pitching, and they were after all, a 95 win team from a division with three 90 win teams. Also, their manager, leyland, is one I have ALEAYS mentioned when people ask who do I think is better

The Yankees, since ‘01 have lost to

The 116 win mariners in ‘01 The WS champ Angels in ‘02 The WS champ Marlins in ‘03 The World Champ Red Sox in ‘04 Anaheim again last year and now Detroit -

The Braves have lost to

The World Champ Diamondbacks in ‘01 The Giants in ‘02 (6 games behind Braves in reg season) The 88 win Cubs in ‘03 The Astros in ‘04 and ‘05, the first two playoff series wins in the history of the Houston franchise

Now, the Yanks lost something when they lost Paul ONeill, and then lost something more ever since that attempted cheap shot swipe at first base against the Sox in ‘04

I guess we could say that since ‘04, the Yankees have started to resemble what the Braves have been doing since ‘91 in terms of playoff stinkers

Anyway, Leyland’s team against the Moneyball crew - any picks there?

By KC

October 8, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

Well the Braves season is over, but at least the NBA season is about to get under way. For anyone who may be wondering… The Spurs will win the NBA finals this year. If you’re putting any office-pool money down, please bet accordingly.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

I think that the Yankees would definitely consider getting Hudson. Now, the Yankees don’t have any prospects to offer because they get rid of them all. I would love to see Melkey Cabrerra here but would the Yanks be willing to part with him if they don’t exercise Sheffield’s contract. Their outfield is crowded with Matsui, Damon, Abreu, and the aforementioned Cabrerra. Of course, they could make Matsui a DH but I think they would rather have Giambi DH and get someone who is better defensively at 1st. They have Craig Wilson but I doubt he is the answer. As for getting A-Rod, I don’t know how that would be possible without either Chipper or Andruw getting traded or a good increase of $10 mil to the payroll. They said the payroll would get bumped up a few dollars probably but how much is a few?

By KC

October 8, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

ALCS: I like the Tigers in 6.

NLCS: Cards over Mets in 7 (Carpenter will be the difference.)

Tigers over Cardinals in 6.

When was the last time the Tigers won the World Series???

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

Robert, one correction. In ‘01 the Yanks didn’t lose to the Mariners. They beat them. They lost to the D-Backs in the WS. Now, mentioning the Braves failures. They lost to the eventual World Champs in ‘01. The Giants were one Dusty Baker mistake from the WS title in ‘02. They lost to the Cubs in ‘03 who were one stupid interfering fan away from a WS. In ‘04 they lost the Astros who were one win away from the WS. And in ‘05 they lost to the Astros again who went to the WS and yes they were swept but the White Sox were going to beat whoever was in that WS.

As for the Braves having a pitching edge, I’m not so sure of that. They didn’t have the pitching edge in ‘01, ‘02, ‘03, ‘04, or ‘05. Now, in 2000 they had no excuse at all.

I’m not saying the Braves shouldn’t have won. I’m sure not saying that Cox hasn’t made some bonehead moves. I am still trying to figure out why in the hell did he take Hudson out in the 8th of the game 4 of the NLDS last year and brought in Farnsworth.

I’m just saying try to be objective about the situation. And by the way anyone who thinks Pinealla is going to make the situation better in NY is crazy. That team will never truly be right until Steinbrener is gone. He can’t buy titles anymore and he seems to be one of the few who still don’t realize this. Same with the Orioles. They will never win with Angelos as an owner.

By KC

October 8, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

Robert:

Just out of curiosity, what is the “Justice is best” thing all about??

By KC

October 8, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

DOB:

Doing some more thinking on the A-Rod thing, I don’t think he’ll ever be a Brave, but I don’t think that for any of the reasons you listed.

“…painted a picture of a guy who’s not a good teammate and won’t acknowledge when he’s slumping or not getting key hits. It’s all about stats to him…”

As a member of the media yourself, I’m sure you can confirm the old adage “you can’t believe everything you read”. Even if he is a little selfish, let’s face it… if he were performing at the top of his game right now, none of this would be coming up. I’ve never stepped foot in the Yankees clubhouse, so I don’t have any way of really knowing this, but I doubt A-Rod is a clubhouse distraction or a disruptor in any way. And it’s not like the Braves haven’t added a few other players in the past with worse clubhouse reputations. Gary Sheffield immediately comes to mind. I’m sure A-Rod would fit in just fine in that regard.

As to your assertion that “the Yankees aren’t going to pay part of his salary to trade him”… I doubt that’s true. I wasn’t aware that the Rangers were paying a significant portion of his salary until you mentioned it. So if it’s true that the Yankees are only paying 16 of his 25 mill annual salary, I doubt if the Yanks coughing up 2 mill a season would be a deal breaker if they found something they really wanted in return.

And while A-Rod’s post-season performances this year and last year left much to be desired, his overall October AVG. is a very respectable .286.

Even if the Yanks trade him, I’m sure A-Rod won’t be in a Braves uni, but that’s because the Braves would have to cut Andruw loose and give up talent in return to fit A-Rod into their plans. For those reasons, they wouldn’t pursue him,

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

My last word on A-Rod until I hear anything to make me reconsider _ one iota from any Braves source, or at least something out of New York indicating otherwise _ is that he’s not on the Braves’ radar, wouldn’t be a good fit for them for a variety of reasons, including salary and personality, and that such a move would not in any way answer the problems that led to their first losing season since 1990, which were injured and/or underperforming starters, injured and/or underperforming relievers, no closer until July (that one already taken care of) and no consistent threat at top of the lineup.

Pitching is their openly stated No. 1 priority this offseason, and what to do with Marcus Giles and 2B is another. Again, I haven’t heard one thing that would lead me to believe that A-Rod is anywhere near the Braves’ radar, or that he would under any circumstances become a target of theirs this winter. Nothing. Not one thing. No scenario.

Until that changes, I’m not going to spent time answering hypotheticals on it, though please feel free to discuss it all you want. No problem. Just doesn’t interest me since I don’t see any way it becomes an issue this winter for Braves, any more than I see Bonds entering their list of possibilities or, to turn this back to last year.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

to finish my thought (I sent that post in mid-sentence):

…or any more than I ever believed Sammy Sosa was or would’ve been on their radar last winter (he wasn’t, but somefolks here speculated and tried to make a case for him).

The Braves had an interst in A-Rod years ago, when they still had a payroll over $100 mill and his reputation was still untarnished, his credentials unquestioned, his postseason performance not an issue, etc.

That train left the station long ago, on a varity of levels.

By Lew

October 8, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Andruw will not be traded. Chipper will not be traded. ARod will not be a Brave. Carl Crawford will not be a Brave. It mystifies me that people can’t listen to comments by the Braves powers that be and the players who can veto deals and still persist in thinking these things will happen. They won’t. RJIB-I agree with the Yankees being interested in Hudson, but I also have doubts about what they could or would offer. Do we want Jaret Wright back? I sure don’t.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

or rather, a “variety” of levels.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

Just rereading my post about reasons they had losing record this year, and should’ve included a few more, including Chipper’s injuries and the hole it left in lineup when he was out. But you get my drift. Pitching was the biggie this year. They scored enough runs, just didn’t prevent enough runs from scoring.

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

I told Tennessee Paul the Dawgs were gonna whup up on the Vols (50 points, gawd that hurt to watch)

I’m not one to kick a guy while he’s down. Besides, I didn’t get to see the game. I received a page from my brother (who attended the school). He was thrilled with the results.

I haven’t even read the rest of these posts, but this one caught my eye.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

KC, I know this isn’t probably going to be too popular but Justice is my favorite player. I liked Justice from the first moment he put on a Braves’ uniform. I was heartbroken when he was traded.

By Robert

October 8, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

‘01 Braves went deeper than the ‘01 Dbacks - remember Burkett and his 3.04 ERA

‘02 Braves had four starters below 3.5 ERA and 2 with full seasons below 3 - clear edge

‘03 Braves - Cubs had better starters, but were 13 games worse during the regular season

‘04 and ‘05 Houston had good pitching but the Braves could have still at least shown up

Now as for trying to put each team we lost to one such-and-such away from maybe being in the World Series

I envy the Giants - who were once one managerial mistake from possibly winning the World Series - as opposed to the Braves who have been in that situation 5 or 6 times

and “Now, in 2000 they had no excuse at all.”

They had no excuse in 93,96,97,or 99 either, and no excuse to come anywhere short of losing to the Yankees in 7 in 98.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

Lew _ exactly what I was thinking regarding Yanks and Hudson. Of all the teams to trade with, they might have the least young, cheap talent to get back in a deal for Hudson. I mean, unless they plan to trade Cano and whoever might be a prospect the Braves are interested in.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

I can’t imagine A-Rod is any more of a clubhouse distraction than Sheffield is. Sheffield was becoming visibly upset earlier in the year about his role on the team. I said it earlier and I will say it again. I find it funny that the two previous teams A-Rod played for never mentioned that he was selfish or elusive or secluded or deluded or just a plain jerk. Now, that he is in New York and they still haven’t won a title is he all these things.

I personally believe A-Rod was set up to fail. He is in a no win situation. He wasn’t acquired to help win a WS. He was acquired to stick to the Red Sox. Pure and simple. I don’t care what he or anyone else says. Jeter was never on board with A-Rod coming to the team. Mr. Team Player immediately said he wasn’t moving positions. So, A-Rod did. Tell me all of you people who seem to think A-Rod is so selfish. If he’s so selfish, then why did he voluntarily agree to play 3B when his natural and better position is SS? If he is the selfish money hungry jerk everyone thinks he is, wouldn’t he have stayed in Texas or forced a trade to a team that would have allowed him to play SS?

The guy is in a town where Jeter is king and no one will ever live up to him. Just like the Dever Broncos. Elway is god and there is no replacement.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

Robert, you are flat out wrong about the D-Backs. The Braves didn’t go deeper than they did. The D-Backs won the freakin WS! Remember Luis Gonzales and his game winning single off of Rivera? What are you talking about. Can someone please confirm what I’m saying is true?!!!!!!!!!!

By Robert

October 8, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

David Justice was a class act and a winner

The stats say he wasnt the player Chipper is (how much of that was because of injury we can debate) , but in a game I have to win, I’d take Justice over Chipper any day

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

Robert, let me ask you a question. Do the players have any responsibility in these loses to you. I mean Glavine nor Maddux ever pitched in the postseason like they did in the regular season. Is that really Cox’s fault? How do you explain Furcal and his struggles in the NLDS this year? They were the same struggles he had as a Brave. Let me guess Cox put the hex on him?

Man, I agree with you on some of your gripes about Cox. I think he has sucked in postseason much more often than not. But, its not all him, man. The manager can only do so much. The players have to play.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Robert, couldn’t agree more about Justice.

DOB, I would take Melkey Cabrerra in a minute.

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

It’s odd that the Braves should have shown up against NL Champion/WS contenders, but the Yankees get a pass.

I think RJIB is correct, not every single post season failure can be attributed entirely to Cox. And 2005, Maybe Cox shouldn’t have taken Hudson out and brought in Farnsworth. But honeslty, we had a 5 run lead. FIVE RUNS. And we brought in a pitcher that was perfect in his saves during the regular season. It should have been safe. 5 freakin runs. Any pitcher in the pen should have been able to get out of that. It isn’t Cox’s fault the Farnsworthless completely melted down. Had Hudson stayed in and lost it, the line would be, Cox should have pulled him. 5 run lead. That was the players fault entirely. And I’m glad that player is on the Yankees. The Yanks have spent a fortune buying free agent Braves pitchers. And so far, all of them have helped the Yanks fail miserably. Maybe that’s the real ploy. While we rebuild, keep proping up average to crappy pitchers so the Yankees over spend on them and lose. Maybe they’ll take a shot at Thomson this year. If only that guy had saved his injuries for next season. He totally would have been snatched up by the Yankees. It would have been 3 years in a row.

By Robert

October 8, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

Ok Robert fair question

Here’s my take

The players and team as a whole are a reflection of their manager

Cox’s attitude is always that he takes the attitude that there is no sense of urgancy, that there is always tomorrow

Over the course of a long season,when the team has great talent, this is a reaonable approach - (particularly considering that any decision he makes will liekly only make things worse) - little mistakes or one game here or there or even small bad streaks here or there

In the playoffs, in a short series, against a better than average and oftentimes very good team, this approach cannot be taken, because, like it or not, there IS a sense of urgancy

I dont mean to rant and rave and spit up all over things like a Larry Bowa, but the blase there’s always tommorow attitude has got to go.

Subconciously, the players are always thinking this - they want to win, and they are upset and realize that the season might be over soon - but mentally, because of the approach they have always taken, they arent geared up, and cant gear up

This is the reason, in my opinion, that Brave after Brave has seemed to flop in the post-season

They are not put into the correct frame of mind to succeed in the playoffs. This is the fault of the manager

By Robert

October 8, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

The players have to play

For them to play successfully, they have to be properly prepared for the situation, by thre manager

So why do the players love him and want to play in Atlanta?

Simplest thing in the world to explain.

You go to a team with talent, and exposure, and which is planned and run as a team whose goal is playoff baseball

And yet when you get to the playoffs, it’s all treated as if any success is a total bonus - no expectations

The chance for success without the responsibility of being held accountable (by the team, now, not the fans) for failure

And then the team tries and sell this approach to the fans, so the fans in turn dont hold the team the manager or the organization responsible for postseaon failure

It’s having your cake and not having to worry about looking fat.

Of COURSE they wanna come here?

Where would you rather lose a playoff series? In New York, where the boss is gonna demand some accounting, or in Atlanta, where Bozo shrugs his shoulders, chews his cud, and says “Hee-Haw”?

By Robert

October 8, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

And you can rag Sheffield all you want - he’s the best nonpitcher not named Aaron to have ever worn a Braves uniform

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

Robert, I actually agree with you about that. The reason the Braves play so well over the course of a 162 game schedule and even this year was better than what it could have been is because Cox does take the approach of a mistake today won’t kill us tomorrow. However, in the playoffs you can’t think that way. I think the Yankees thought that way against the Tigers. You have to treat every game like its a game 7. I totally agree that Cox’s lack of a sense of urgency and panick in the reg. season is fine but in the playoffs is a killer. Look Randolph last night. He could’ve taken the approach, ‘we only have to win one of the next three” and left Trachsel in but he instead took the approach of lets get this done NOW! Cox doesn’t seem to think you have to change your approach some in the postseason. So, Robert, I do agree with you about that.

Another real problem is the “business like” approach the team takes which is a direct result of their manager. Again, in the regular season that is needed. Can’t get too emotional and let things get you too high or too low. But, in the postseason and in short series you have to let the emotion ride. Let the guys get excited and pumped up. Get the crowd into it. I have been guility of criticizing the lack of enthusiasm from the crowd but it is a reflection of the team. I hope Frency and McCann get their way and bring back some fire to this team.

That is where Torre and Cox are different. Torre lets his guys express emotion and fire where Cox urges them to suppress it.

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

the players are always thinking this - they want to win
They are not put into the correct frame of mind to succeed in the playoffs. This is the fault of the manager
Robert, that’s an interesting thought, but I don’t think it holds for every single Braves post season. There are very few players that would take the field and play like it doesn’t matter. JD Drew does, but that wasn’t Cox’s fault. The failures by the players in the post season cannot be enterily attributed to the manager because you precieve that they haven’t been put in the right gear. They must perform day in and day out no matter the time of year.
If that line of reasoning is true, then it stands to reason that the opposite is true. Perhaps the underperformance of the players isn’t because they take the field without a care in the world, but because they take the field with over urgency and “press” resulting in underperformance (see A-Rod).

But I still don’t think that is the reason for every post season failure over the last 15 years. Other teams make it to the post season and don’t win. LaRussa’s teams make it to the post season and don’t win. Sometimes, Robert, it’s the players fault and only the players fault.

Take the Cubs meltdown. It is blamed on a fan, but it was the play just after Bartman… the short-stop who let the slow grounder roll through his legs for an error allowing the runs to score that killed them. Had he made that play, the inning would have been over. Blaming the fan is merely a scape goat. Blaming Cox for every post season failure is a scape goat. Fire Joe Torre because his pitchers failed to perform is a scape goat. Some times the players simply don’t perform. No matter how hard you practice, or how urgent you present the situation. Sometimes the ice skater falls in the Olympics.

By Robert

October 8, 2006 05:29 PM | Link to this

When I said the Braves went deeper I meant at starting pitcher - 3 to 2

specifically (Maddux Glavine Burkett) vs (Johnson Schilling)

As long as you keep taking the approach of trying to find any reason to justify the Braves playoff losses in each and every year, it’s like the smoker or the cocaine addict finding ANY excuse to say that today isnt the day they need to quit — it wont ever work that way

In the end, this isnt about what the Yankees or any other team have or have not done, either absolutely or in comparison to the Braves.

It’s what the Braves should have done and have not - over and over and over again

Let me turn it around and ask it this way - At what point is there just no excuse any more?

Check out sportsline.com and Larry Dobrow’s article that just excoriates Torre

Four titles and they are ready to struing Torre up and burn him in effigy (and, as good as I think he is compared to Cox, they’re right - Torre should be fired right now) - meanwhile down here, 14 flops in 15 years and we want to bestow Cox with knighthood and sainthood

Let’s assume for a moment that NONE of it is Cox’s fault. (so ridiculous I am having a hard time not laughing, but assume it)

EVEN THEN , even if it were no fault of his own - at some point the general is asked to fall on his sword, cuz whatever he has done, even if it’s the most brilliant move in history every time, it’s a stale act

Of course that assumption is ridiculous. Any manager who would put Chris Reitsma into a playoff game where his teasm is less than twenty five runs ahead or behind is, by definition, incompetent. You pitch all the pitchers, then the position players, then Bobby Dewes and so on. If it comes down to Reitsma or nothing, you forfeit and save your team the cost of the baseball that would otherwise be hit into the seats

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

Well, Tennessee, true Alex Gonzales error after the Bartman incident lead to the meltdown. But, it is fair to say that Bartmann led to the error. Never underestimate the mental side of things when it comes to sports. I will bet you most of those guys on that field immediately started thinking about the goat and the curse as soon as the Bartman play happened.

Robert, I may tend to agree with you about Sheffield. However, I think Justice, Chipper, and McGriff may have a differing opinion. And not to mention this fella by the name of Murphy.

By Robert

October 8, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

R - JIB - How can you agree with me somuch on this issue and stand the thought of another season where winning in the playoffs is a hopeless proposition?

TP - Yes, sometimes a loss is the fault of the players and the players only. But not every time. And certainly not in the Braves case, when they are brainwashed, if you will, into the Cox philosophy

Stop apologizing for the man. In your mindset, any one time it wasnt his fault exonerates him forever

The players CONCIOUSLY play like it matters. But it’s been drilled into them that there is always tomorrow. So, SUBCONCIOUSLY, they “know” that it doesnt really matter

And it’s reaffirmed, every time heads dont roll when they come up short in the playoffs

TP - How many times could you fail miserably at work, when you were set up with a great chance to succeed gloriously - and keep your job? and collate f()kin ACCOLADES? How many times? 1? 2? I dont think 7?

Let’s forget the Braves of ‘02-‘06 for now. The Braves flat out should have won it all in 93, 95, 96, 97, and ‘02. Not winning at LEAST 3, more like 4, of those years, was the equivalent of blatant malpractice

98 and 99 should have battles to the bitter end with the Yankees

The single season that the Braves could be considered to have OVERachieved in the run was ‘03 - winning 101 games with that pitching staff is great work - by Leo Mazzone

But let’s talk about the supposedly overachieving Braves of the past few years? What does it matter that they make the playoffs with a team that wasnt supposed to, when you consider that they cant DO anything in the playoffs, even when they have the best team?

What you are doing is placing this incredible importance or significance to beating the four other NL East teams, and wanting to presrve that, even it if means throwing away the chance at the only real prize

The other day when there was a misunderstanding, or maybe there wasnt and you were trying to twist my words, you said that I meant that HOFers who didnt have a ring had careers that didnt mean anything

Well, I didnt say or mean that, but TP and others - ask em

Ask Banks - Ask Bonds - Ask Cobb - How much of what they have accomplished would they trade, for one ring - heck, for one more CHANCE at a ring?

The Bobby Cox philosophy takes that Holy Grail, the CHANCE at a ring, and treats it like there is no urgancy, like there will always be tomorrow - like it is their birthright to be IN the playoffs, but beyond reasonable expectation to hold them accoutnable to DO anything with the sacred chance

That’s a sin against the game

By Robert

October 8, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

” Sometimes the ice skater falls in the Olympics.”

But Sasha Cohen falls every time, and therefore she cant claim to be in the same league as Michelle Kwan

(Dont get me wrong, I’d do Sasha in a heartbeat)

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

Oh, Robert, man, you had me in tears about that Reitsma comment. That was hilarious.

Now, as for Torre, I don’t think he should be fired. I think he made due with what he had. He didn’t have the pitching. George went out and bought a bunch of stars but they were all hitters because hitters put people in the seats and pitching doesn’t. The fact is of the 4 AL teams the Yanks pitching was by far the worse. By far. That is why I said back on Monday don’t think the Yanks are a lock for the WS. I did think they would get past the Tigers and then the A’s or Twins would stop them.

Fact is you can’t win without pitching. And yes the Braves have had it in the past but it didn’t show up in the postseason. I personally hope Glavine has a good postseason because the only one he really ever had was in ‘95.

Its not Torre’s fault the Yanks didn’t have pitching. He doesn’t make the personel decisions I highly doubt he has the much imput on the decision making. When you have a broken down Mussina in game 2, even more broken down Johnson in game 3, and Jaret Wright….Jaret Wright in game 4 you are doomed for failure. The Tigers are no slouch and score runs right along with the Yanks offense but the problem for NY was the Tigers can pitch and pitch very well.

If you think Pinella will go in there and create a miracle, it won’t happen unless the Yanks get quality pitching in the rotation and the bullpen. Think back to those Yankee teams of ‘96, ‘98, ‘99, and 2000. They had the likes of Clemens, Wells, and Pettite in the rotation and Nelson, Stanton, and Wetteland in the bullpen. These Yankees don’t have that. They have the rotation I previously mentioned and the likes of Villone, Farnsworth, Proctor, and a bunch of minor league rejects in the pen.

Is that really Torre’s fault or the fault of the people who control personel and the minor leagues?

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 06:15 PM | Link to this

Stop apologizing for the man. In your mindset, any one time it wasnt his fault exonerates him forever

Robert, I haven’t appologized for him. There’s no need to. And no, not just one time exonerates him forever. Just like one miscue doesn’t forever tarnish him either.
That’s been my point the whole time. That it isn’t entirely Cox’s fault every single time. List what you want, but that doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t Cox’s fault every single time. There’s no need to appologize for him.

When he makes a bad call, I’m upset. Just the same, when a player makes a bad play, I’m upset. When a team makes a bad trade, I’m upset. But I’m not going to take that disappointment so far as to cheer against my favorite team. Or hope they have a losing season. I’m not going to hope the team fails so some one gets fired. I’m not going to waste the whole season, or year, and sulk because of the matter.

Take Otis Nixon’s bunt to end the world series. Not Cox’s fault. Otis called that play. LaRoche’s bunt, not Cox’s fault, LaRoche called that play. Andruw Jones, strong willed about his mechanics, not Cox’s fault. Farnsworthless can’t hold a 5 run lead against the worst offensive team in the playoffs, not Cox’s fault. It’s not an appology Robert. It never has been.

By Robert

October 8, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

Dale Murphy - 398 HR 1266 rbi, 2111 hits, .265,986 walks, 1746 K’s, adjusted OPS 121

McGriff - 493/1550/2490/.284/1305/1882/134

Justice - 305/1017/1571/.279/903/999/128

Andru - 342/1023/1556/.267/647/1256/117

Chipper - 357/1197/1944/.304/1070/1066/142

Eddie Mathews - 512/1453/2315/1444/1487/143 (a fine comp to Chipper)

Sheffield - 455/1501/2390/.297/1293/971/.297

Chipper, if he continues to produce at curent levels for three more years, would be nearly on a par. He has a claim, not a strong one, but a claim

The others - fine players all of them - but except for Mathews, not in the same area code as Sheff

That K/BB - anything under about 1.3:1 in a slugger is very good - near 1:1 is awesome (and part of the evidence that to me makes Chipper, like him or not personally, a lock HOFer)

4:3 - Sheffield is just an awesome HITTER. I dont think he has the best attitude, but then again I think he gets a bad rap - he got criticized for saying he was the best player while in Atlanta - well, exclude Maddux and Glavine, and he was

I am a big I wont say so much fan, as admirant, or Sheffield - To me, he’s the best nonpitcher not named Bonds of our generation

I wont say fan, because I dont LIKE him personally (not that I dislike him, but acknowledge he’s a butt sometimes). Just like I dont HATE Cox - It’s admirationan and repect vs contempt, not like or love vs hate

By Robert

October 8, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

“Oh, Robert, man, you had me in tears about that Reitsma comment. That was hilarious”

Thanks - but I didnt think it was so funny when he was walking out to the take the mound

I agree about the Yanks and pitching. When it was annoucned that Wang was gonna start game one, the ESPN guys were discussing the decision. Kruk (who is a HOOT by the way) flat out said that it was the right decision because Wang was their best pitcher. Scary but true - for all his 19 wins and he had a real nice season, Wang struck out 76 batters in 216 innings - I mean, you dont gotta whiff em left and right, but sheesh

That Detroit team won 95 games - Bonderman is a stud who just came of age, and Verlander is a stud in the making. Throw in The Gambler heaving up all kinds of crafty junk between the two fireballers and thats a tough rotation

By Lew

October 8, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

Robert-You can’t be serious about Sheffield. Even discounting the others mentioned, how about Eddie Matthews or Orlando Cepeda. They are both HOF players-something Sheffield never will be.

By Robert

October 8, 2006 06:38 PM | Link to this

“Just like one miscue doesn’t forever tarnish him either.”

The last time Cox made only one miscue was - I dunno, maybe the 5th inning of a rain shortened game in 1993.

But I have a great idea for Reitsma for next year. Let him ride the cart around the field and use that slingshot or cannon thingie that shoots tshirts into the crowd.

Distribution of souveneirs has been his specialty for years

By Robert

October 8, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

“Take Otis Nixon’s bunt to end the world series. Not Cox’s fault. Otis called that play”

Correct. I can give you instances where it wasnt Cox’s fault as well. For example, the 105th game of the 1994 season.

TP - When Cox puts on his uniform, it’s a miscue

as for wasting a whole season - I’d rather waste one than several. I figure you’ll disagree with me, but I’d take 12 last place finishes and a second ring over the 13 division titles that didnt net a WS win

Read into that just a little and you’ll see that I am saying that I would love my team even if they finished last a lot. I’m a tough fan, but not a fair weather fan

By Robert

October 8, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

“They are both HOF players-something Sheffield never will be.”

Sheffield is a LOCK first ballot HOFer

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 06:53 PM | Link to this

Well, no doubt Reitsma should be sent out of here on the first bus that will take him. You have to laugh at the bad like you do the good. And with Reitsma if you don’t laugh you’ll cry.

As for Sheffield, I also agree that he got a bad rep. In Milwaukee he was young and immature. Besides who wouldn’t have wanted to get out of that place back then. In LA he kind of got tricked. The Dodgers promised to put the pieces around him to make a championship club and simply did not. Funny how when he was in Atlanta you never heard about his “bad attitude”. And really even in NY he hasn’t recieved a lot of bad press. The incident back in spring training about his contract was a lot more Cashman’s fault than Sheff’s. Cashman flat out lied to the man and I believe Sheff when he says he values honesty. It was the same situation in LA. He got upset when he got lied to.

That is my whole argument about A-Rod. Don’t tell me this guy is a jerk when he has never been seen as anything less than congenial (sp?) before arriving in NY. I still say that Jeter has been ticked off at him ever since that magazine article where A-Rod more or less said that Jeter isn’t the complete SS that others in the league at the time were. Jeter was not happy about him coming there and like I said last night it goes back to a high school thing. If the popular jock doesn’t like you then the other “cool” kids or the ones wanting to be in the crowd won’t like you either. I’m sure everyone in that clubhouse can see that Jeter barely acknowledges the man’s presence let alone is friendly with him. Jeter doesn’t have to say a word. You know, actions speak louder.

I wonder if Jeter will get slammed for being as big a choke as A-Rod was in the ALDS. After that terrific game 1 performance Mr. MVP (when it should be Morneau or Ortiz)was nowhere to be found. Just like the rest of the team. But, who will take the fall?

I”m not hating on Jeter. I think the guy is great. I just think he gets a pass because he is Derek “freakin” Jeter. I know this. A-Rod won’t be a Yankee next season. He says he wants to stay but then he brought out the Chipper and Andruw line of “if they are just dying to get rid of me then I guess I’ll go”. Bye bye, A-Rod. Leave while you can, pal. Go to the Cubs, become an icon and be the guy that leads them to WS because as long as “that other guy” is in NY you will always be “the other guy”.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this

Lew, I have to disagree with you about Sheffield. I think Sheff is HOF right now but he will definitely be by the time he is through playing. The guy has at least two more years of top notch prodcution in him if not a lot more.

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 07:08 PM | Link to this

How many times could you fail miserably at work, when you were set up with a great chance to succeed gloriously
I don’t think Cox has been set up with the chance to succeed gloriously lately. His pitching staffs of late haven’t really been the type to flourish in the post season. For the most part, it’s been amazing to me that they even flourished in the regular season. Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz excluded of course. But even Maddux and Glavine have shown that they aren’t really dominant in the post season. But Cox doesn’t control that part. He doesn’t do the signings or trades.
This conversation has been going on all season. The need for power vs. finesse. The need for proven bullpen counter parts and the likes. A lot of these staffs have been filled with cast-offs and reclamation projects. This is where Leo draws all his praise. I view a lot of these play-off berths as the equivalent of getting that bloop single to extend a hitting streak. However, when talking to you, it sounds as if you view all these teams as the most dominate teams in the post season. Able to win as easy as a hot knife through butter. At any rate, team building is a good topic for now, because we should see a lot of it in action this off-season, and not just with the Braves.

And it’s reaffirmed, every time heads dont roll when they come up short in the playoffs

Then your issue isn’t with Cox at all. You should be screaming to the trees about JS. He’s the one that fires people.

Ask Bonds … How much of what they have accomplished would they trade, for one ring
Sheeesh, I think we all know that Bonds was willing to make a trade. But he was willing to make that trade for a single season record.

Dont get me wrong, I’d do Sasha in a heartbeat
I’m sure that level of stamina would really impress her.

By Lew

October 8, 2006 07:15 PM | Link to this

No way Sheff gets in the HOF first ballot, if at all. He has pi$$ed off sportswriters ever since he has been in baseball and we all know that counts for players on the edge of admission. Also, his close association with Bonds in their workout routines is not likely to be forgotten, either. You know that can make a difference whether or not he actually did anything. No way, Dude,the only way Sheffield goes to Cooperstown is on a trip to see the pretty bronze plaques.

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 07:23 PM | Link to this

TP - When Cox puts on his uniform, it’s a miscue
Valid arguements do more to help your point than statements like that. For instance, when you are asked to name a better counter part, say something other than “anyone” or “a monkey”. For that matter, who would you like in his place? And why that particular person. I’m seeking a living, breathing, active major league manager for an answer.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 07:29 PM | Link to this

I do think Cox has done more with less the last five or six years. He has had pieces but never the whole puzzle. Even in 2003, the Braves just didn’t have the bullpen. In fact, they have hardly ever had a truly good bullpen. That’s not to say Cox is above criticism for some of his moves because they have been down right stupid at times but it can’t all be laid at his feet.

TP, you’re right about Bonds. He would give that silly HR record up in a minute for a WS ring. No doubt. As selfish as pro athletes are perceived to be and in most cases made out to be, the vast majority of them don’t care about the money or the fame if a champioship doesn’t come with it. Ask Barkley. Ask Marino. Those guys and many others will tell you that without a ring their careers seem empty.

By The Grinch

October 8, 2006 07:37 PM | Link to this

Robert, did I hear you say you’d do Ali G in a heartbeat? :-) Just kidding, I know which Sacha Cohen you meant; she is a hottie. Why is it even the fans know Reitsma’s the root of all evil (and we have some mighty understanding fans) but the organization has no clue? Not only is he employed by us (or anyone) at all, but he’s making 2.75 million. That’s more than half the rest of the bullpen combined. I’m sure he’s a great guy, but a great guy is someone you buy a beer, not pay millions to to torpedo your franchise.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 07:43 PM | Link to this

Lew, Sheff’s number speak for themselves. But, you’re right about the sportswriters and that is why another system has to be put in place. If grown adults cannot put aside their personal feelings for someone or the fact that a player didn’t kiss their butts then they shouldn’t be able to vote. I don’t personally think whether a guy was nice to the media or not should deicde if he gets into the HOF. And his association with Bonds should have no bearing. Because again, no proof exists. Circumstancial evidence is just that. People get off at criminal trials every day because of circumstancial evidence. Why? Because it is not proof of anything. It merely suggests guilt. I’m not saying that Bonds or Sheffield is innocent of steroids but I’m tired…so tired of hearing people state it as fact. If Sheffield doesn’t get in because he was a friend of someone who is accused….ACCUSED of steroid use then the whole innocent until proven guilty thing means nothing. Nothing at all!

I hate to get on this soapbox but should guys like Ty Cobb be in the HOF? The man was a flaming racist. Not to mention he is considered the biggest a** to ever play the game. Even more so than Bonds. No one had a good thing to say about the man personally but yet he is in. I guess the writers at the time could differentiate their personal feelings from the man’s numbers and impact on the game with his play.

By flbravesgirl

October 8, 2006 08:09 PM | Link to this

Stopping in to see what’s happening and you guys are talking about skating! Woohoo! My other favorite sport. I’m very impressed, gentlemen.

Robert & Grinch, just so you know, Sasha actually looks like a skinny 11-year old when you see her in person.

Are y’all familiar with ice dancing too? It would be the favorite skating discipline of most men I think, because the women wear next to nothing in the way of costumes and they tend to be curvier than the pairs or singles girls.

I just had to laugh seeing skating references here on the blog. Y’all made my day. (By the way, skating season starts next weekend.)

By The Grinch

October 8, 2006 08:57 PM | Link to this

I like watching women skate. It’s not just that they’re attractive and men are not, but they’re also much more graceful. There are some sports dudes just don’t need to be in. As for what she looks like in person, Flb, no offense but if I had a nickel for every girl that I’ve heard say “I don’t know why you think (insert whatever hot chick you see on any magazine cover) is sexy; she’s way too skinny…” My answer is usually “Too skinny for what?” I’m not gonna try to live off her for a month in the desert, or use her to float home from a shipwreck. There are such things as girls that are too skinny, but they’re usually on the Maury show talking about their problem. If you see a guy look at a girl in a bikini and go “Whoa,” it’s usually for a reason (and don’t think she didn’t calculate all that from looking in a mirror first). And yes, I like BBW’s too; I’m just making a point. (I’m an equal opportunity hound.) BTW, Y’all; “The Departed” absolutely jammed. Go see it.

By dadgum

October 8, 2006 09:04 PM | Link to this

DOB…..thanks for the Greenhomes tip. I will see if it is in YOUTUBE. Catch you on the next blog.

By Lew

October 8, 2006 09:32 PM | Link to this

RJIB-Check out Sheff’s stats pre-strike compared to post strike. Can you say juiced? He goes from a .270 hitter to a .330 hitter and starts cranking HR like never in the seven previous years. You think the voters won’t take this into account. He may not even get to 500 HR, which shouldn’t be an automatic criterion for HOF admission anymore. He only played 30 games this year. Can you say muscles breaking down from being juiced? No way he goes to the Hall. Don’t even be so sure of McGuire this year, either.

By flbravesgirl

October 8, 2006 09:40 PM | Link to this

Grinch, it’s not that I think that she’s “too skinny”. She has an absolutely beautiful face but the poor girl literally looks like puberty hasn’t kicked in yet. And she’s 21.

IMO, cover models don’t usually look too skinny. Now some runway models and actresses look like they’re in need of immediate treatment but the mag. cover girls generally look annoyingly perfect.

By Stinky

October 8, 2006 10:01 PM | Link to this

flbravesgirl, thank you for that note on ice danincing. i’ve always been partial to dorothy hamill and other female winter olympians whose rear ends hang out of their costumes. i’ll be looking for the ice dancers of the modern era in the next winter olympiad. i already know about rythmic gymnasts.

be warned, sensitive bloggers, stinky has had firewater today/tonight. (dob just peed his pants.)

looks like the mets will win it all. i hope i’m wrong, but if a team can play through the crucible that is a full season in first place in front of the ny media and then get their bullpen rested before the nlcs, you have to like their chances (a la the 75 & 76 Reds who had great bullpens).

lew, sheff has 1501 rbi. he’ll get more and will be in the hof on the first ballot. bank on it.

and back to ice skaters. even tho i have that soft spot for dot, katarina witt is the official hottest skater of all time. bar none.

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 10:03 PM | Link to this

Lew: I think I agree with you on Sheffield. I wouldn’t be surprised one way or the other on his HOF status. But, he really hasn’t been the biggest force in the game. He’s been over shadowed by everyone and complained about it a lot… not so much as Bonds though. Also, he’s played for a plethera of teams. These things alone don’t hold you out, but combine them all and compare him to his peers when he played and, to me, he leans more towards not going in than going in.
Sheff, by the way, says his bad rap came from his time in ATL. I don’t recall anything bad being written about him in ATL. I do recall LA hating his guts.

Are there any guys with 500 HR that aren’t in the hall? There will probably be a few now, when you think of Palmero, Sosa, McGwire and so forth. Of those, I’d protest Sosa going in. Of all the cheaters to play, this clown shouldn’t be allowed in. It’s one thing to cork your bat. It’s another to juice. But to do both at the same time? Come on.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 10:08 PM | Link to this

I was going to jump in, but this whole Cox thing is so freakin’ redundant. I mean, everyone’s stated their cases _ 9 million times. Now what? NOW WHAT? I mean, give me something new, or there’s no sense even posting a new blog, since it’s going to come back to this tired argument.

Robert, no disrespect, but you told me all I needed to know when you said Torre should be fired. You just simply MUST hold someone accountable, and since you can’t fire the players, fire the manager. Joe Torre is a phenomenal manager and there’s NO ONE they could get to better handle that team, in that town, than Torre.

But I tell you what, if I’d paid $1.2 billion in salaries and payroll taxes in six years and had not one World Series title to show for it, I’d probably do something irrational, too, though it would be fire the GM, not the manager (the pitchers they ran out there with a $200 mill payroll were laughable. Jarret Wright? JARRET WRIGHT?

As for you comment, your matter-of-fact statement that Sheff is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, that’s just a ridiculous statement. He’s not a first-ballot Hall of Famer with his numbers right now. You said it so assuredly, as though you had talked to some voting writers or seen some comments of those who’ve said that _ show me just one comment along those lines.

I’ve NEVER heard any of the writers _ and we’re the ones who vote for the Hall _ call Sheff a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Never. And I covered the guy for six years with the Marlins and Braves. I love Sheff. Great dude. But first-ballot Hall of Famer? Based on what? His numbers? His postseason success? His rings?

By Lew

October 8, 2006 10:12 PM | Link to this

TenPaul-Absolutely and with Palmiero you have that positve test, too. I think we’re going to see several players not make the HOF that might have at other times. Add to that the fact that 500 HR ain’t what it used to be in the old days when batting .300 meant more than batting .335 did a couple of years ago, and I think HOF standards may be changing. The steroid era has already killed Dale Murphy’s shot at the hall, evenb though he led the NL in HR’s for the decade of the 80’s (yep, even with Schmidt in his prime), but compared to the seroid generation, it paled in comparison to the numbers being thrown on the board. I think baseball needs to do a lot of re-evaluation in several ares.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 10:37 PM | Link to this

I should add, I do think Sheff will eventually get into the Hall, but not on first ballot unless he has a couple more great seasons (which he’s certainly capable of doing).

Considering his modest postseason success (and he’s been far less than modest lately, since having a good one with Florida in 1997), and the connection to Balco and Bonds (and we don’t know where that’ll go; Sheff’s name could fade from memory in that mess, or something else could come out to dredge it back up), compare him to a few others who won’t make it on first ballot, mostly because of steroid rumors but also because numbers like 500 homers are no longer automatic qualifiers because stats are so skewed in the “steroid era” as it’s come to be known:

S. Sosa: career .274 hitter with 355 doubles, 588 homers, 1,575 RBIs, 234 SBs, .982 OPS.

M. McGwire: .263 with 583 homers, 1,414 RBis, .982 OPS.

J. Canseco: .266 with 340 doubles, 462 homers, 1,407 RBIs, 200 SBs, .868 OPS.

Rafael Palmeiro: .288 with 585 doubles, 569 homers, 1,835 RBIs, .886 OPS.

THEN THERE’S two guys, Andre Dawson and Dale Murphy, each with a sterling reputation, not a blemish to his name, who still aren’t in Hall, and Murph never will be.

Murphy: .265 with 350 doubles, 398 homers, 1,266 RBIs, .815 OPS, two MVP awards.

Dawson: .279 with 503 doubles, 98 triples, 438 homers, 1,591 RBIs, 314 SBs, .805 OPS, eight Gold Gloves, one MVP award.

Then there’s Sheff, who, like I said, could easily end up in the Hall with a couple more sold seasons. But take a look at his stats, compare them to, say, Dawson’s or Palmeiro’s, tell me again why Sheff is a sure first-ballot Hall of Famer in your view:

Sheffield: .297 with 418 doubles, 455 homers, 1,501 RBIs, 220 SBs, .923 OPS.

By The Grinch

October 8, 2006 10:45 PM | Link to this

You still up Lew? Flbgirl, I don’t doubt your judgement, really; you seem like a much more reasonable person than most. I’ll take your word for it. I was mainly just pointing out a common quality among most women’s complaints. You’re obviously not like most women or you wouldn’t put up with us. :-) A girl’s gotta have some curves, skinny or no. Stinky, did you actually just say you’ve had some firewater? I didn’t realize you could mix that with anti-psychotics. :-) In all honesty, though, I agree with you on two counts: women’s gymnastics and Katarina Witt. She was (is) one of the greatest hotties of them all. And she ain’t too skinny. DOB, Scorsese’s the man; that’s never been in doubt. But now it’s reaffirmed.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 10:52 PM | Link to this

Absolutely right, Lew. Voters are definitely comparing stats according to era now, and hitting 400-500 homers in the 60s and 70s means a hell of a lot more than doing it in the 90s through now. Just does. And it should, given what we now know.

By the way, Robert, I’m assuming you must not be including Eddie Mathews when you say Sheff’s the best non-pitcher besides Aaron to play for the Braves, because Eddie played most of his career with the Milwaukee Braves. Right?

Or do you consider Sheff’s stats (see above) to be better than Eddie Mathews numbers long before the steroid and supplements era?

Mathews: .271 average, 354 doubles, 72 triples, 512 homers, 1,453 RBIs, .885 OPS. The man had nine consecutive years with 30 or more homers from 1953-1961, including league-leading seasons with 46 and 47 homers.

Sheff hasn’t had nine 30-homers seasons in his entire career, in an entirely different type of offensive era in baseball. He’s had eight such seasons in 17 years in the majors.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 10:55 PM | Link to this

I agree that Sheffield isn’t necessarily a first ballot HOFer but he is definitley hall of fame material. Lew, I understand where your coming from. But, how do you explain his numbers last year when there was testing in place and you knnow he was one of the first ones on the list.

I think he is still a good player and if the Yanks don’t want him, I’m sure there will be a line of teams to get him including the Red Sox.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2006 10:58 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I’ve gotta go see it again. That’s how good “The Departed” is. Best movie I’ve seen this year, for sure. The entire cast was excellent _ Nicholson, DiCaprio, Mark Walberg, the female lead (don’t know what else she’s been in), Damon (didn’t you just love it when he got his a$# kicked?) … and the direction is peerless. Scorsese is my favorite director, and by a good distance.

… Well, Cards are going back again. So, if LaRussa loses again before the World Series, should he be fired, too? Or if he’s swept again in the World Series if they get past the Mets, then should he be fired?

By The Grinch

October 8, 2006 11:02 PM | Link to this

Please Dave, throw us a new blog if for no other reason than I promise not to beat the dead donkey issue. I’ve got cable internet and it’s STILL almost taking a whole minute to load (remember when you were proud of that speed for loading a jpeg?). Throw a Dawg a bong. Oops, I started to run back and change that spelling (meant to say bone); interesting Freudian slip, no? E and g aren’t even next to each other like an honest mistake. D’oh!

By flbravesgirl

October 8, 2006 11:14 PM | Link to this

A lot of people consider Kat “big” for a skater which I think is ridiculous. She looks fabulous and she’s 40ish now.

If y’all want to see Sasha, she’s scheduled to be in the Campbell’s Cup next Sun. afternoon. It’s one of the few competitions she’s confirmed for this year. I don’t know if they’re showing the ice dance portion Sun. or on another broadcast, but if you guys are lucky, Tanith Belbin will be wearing her red dress from last season that was more cutouts than fabric.

Back to baseball: I don’t recall any bad press about Sheffield while he was in Atlanta, but I remember plenty of it prior to his time with the Braves.

By The Grinch

October 8, 2006 11:20 PM | Link to this

Ya, Martin’s the man for so many reasons. Most directors would have screwed up so much star power, but they all did their job for him. Even Marky Mark outdid himself. There was no weak link. But the direction itself was masterful; no showing off but many, many subtle things that just made it better. Bruckheimer or somebody could’ve made the same movie and it would’ve still been fun, but Martin takes it to the next level (which is all his own). Hail to the Chief.

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 11:50 PM | Link to this

DOB: Great movie wasn’t it? I was sucked in the whole time and got into every character. Every stinking one of them. So much going on in that movie. Fabulous.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 8, 2006 11:50 PM | Link to this

It’s a shame that Torre is getting fired. The man is a good manager and kept this team together this year and last year when a lesser manager would have let it fall apart. Its not his fault he had pitching that was as suspect as the Braves and a bullpen sans Rivera that made the Braves’ pen look like a pen full of Eckersleys.

Good luck to Sweet Lou. He’ll need it.

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2006 11:56 PM | Link to this

Heading out to go get some tunes. I’m gonna pick up a Black Keys CD. Got all the props noted on a little sheet of paper to help with the choice. I’m going to have to find a new place to shop. Tower has gotten to be down right ridiculous. I went out to get up some stuff on Tuesday and the prices have just exploded over there. X-Men 3 was going for 35 plus tax. The new Beck was going for 20 plus tax. I’m sorry they’re bankrupt, but this isn’t going to help. You can’t get out of debt all on one sell.

By The Grinch

October 9, 2006 12:04 AM | Link to this

Flbgirl, thanks for the heads up. I actually hadn’t watched in a good while, but I may give it a look (as long as it isn’t the same time as the Falcons game). Tanith Belbin…is she a Hobbit? Sounds like it. :-) But, I surmise she doesn’t have hairy feet. Sheffield’s a helluva player however you look at it, but my impression that even though he was on good behavior here he’s still a weenie in general. Don’t mean he can’t swing the bat, though. If I waved my wrists like that before every swing I’d likely not get it out of the infield. Robert (JIB), I think Sheff got into the ‘roids not to improve his numbers but to improve his recovery time as he moved into a different age range (to prolong his career). Notice Giambi looked sick for about two years now he’s come back full circle. It’s not just about numbers; It’s more complicated than it looks. I know; though I didn’t use them myself (didn’t need to) I had some close friends that did to stay competitive in football. It’s a vicious system and there’s a lot of pressure. You don’t want to lose your edge. You look for every advantage you can. I just always produced enough testosterone on my own and I didn’t want to take something that would make my boys shrink. :-) Course, I ain’t big time (but I wasn’t (ain’t) bad. :-)

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 12:05 AM | Link to this

Grinch, I was going to, but then they’re going to want one for tomorrow for that Monday blitz thing, so might as well wait and do it tomorrow. Sorry. I’ve spent the night making and canceling hotel/plane reservations. it’s a nightmare trying to book hotels for so many cities and possible combinations weeks ahead of time, then canceling or modifying them one by one by one….

I always had a crush on Nadia Comaneci, I think because we were about the same age when she was scoring those 10s at the Olympics. That, and I just dig women from the Eastern Bloc sports machines….

(kidding)

By The Grinch

October 9, 2006 12:20 AM | Link to this

No you’re not kidding, Dave. I’ve always thought Nadia was (is) a hottie too. We ain’t the only ones. A lot of it had to do with her voice…don’t get me started. Anyway, Naw, dude; I wasn’t suggesting you rattle off a new blog now; I meant tommorrow or something. Jesus, man; we ain’t THAT demanding. You sound a little worn out anyway. Chill on out, dude. We shall abide. :-) I loved that line today…”How’s you ma?” “She’s on her way out.” We all are…act accordingly.”

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 12:23 AM | Link to this

TennPaul, that movie was 2-1/2 hours and I wanted it to go another hour, that’s how good it was.

Regarding Tower Records, the prices exploded because they’re going under. They’re in Chapter 11, being sold very soon. They’ll be no more. So they’re selling everything at suggest retail prices, which almost no one does except those horrible music stores inside malls or airports. I had the same reaction when I went into the Tower in Atlanta on Tuesday, when I usually buy a couple of new releases on sale. NOTHING was on sale. I asked and the guy told me what was happening.

It’s too bad, because it and Virgin are the only good chain music stores with good selections and prices, and we don’t have Virgin Records around here. I wish they’d open an Amoeba Records in Atlanta, but those are only in L.A., S.F. and Berkeley, I think.

Anyway, at least we’ve got several really good indy record stores in Atlanta, including Criminal, Wuxtry, Ella Guru, etc.

Grinch, it is amazing how “fit” ol’ Giambi looks now, huh? Just like he did in Oakland….

On an entirely unrelated matter _ uh-hum _ there’s no test for human growth hormone, in baseball or anywhere else. They haven’t come up with a reliable test yet. So have at it, boys.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 12:31 AM | Link to this

TennPaul, if you can get three CDs, I’d recommend one from among Black Keys’ “Rubber Factory,” “Magic Potion,” “The Big Come Up” or “Thickfreakness,” plus their “Chulahoma” CD of Junior Kimbrough covers, and then The Greenhornes’ “Sewed Soles.” Man, you’ll be in music nirvana for a week or two while you listen.

But you won’t be able to find all those Keys CDs at a chain store, I’d be willing to bet. And probably not The Greenhornes. Maybe just the latest Keys CD and “Chulahoma” at a Best Buy type place, though those two CDs are definitely great and will do just fine.

But the old ones are essential _ “Rubber Factory,” “The Big Come Up” and “Thickfreakness” are all phenomenal. Any indy record store worth a damn will have most or all.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 01:07 AM | Link to this

No, I’m fine. Got all my flights and hotels taken care of. Man, that’s a pricey ticket, NY to St. Louis direct on relatively short notice…

Nadia … yes, she grew up quite nicely…

That line, as delivered by Jack, had me laughing out loud. Man, he can deliver a line like that with such aplomb. The man’s got the greatest body of work, more memorable, enjoyable films than any other actor of my lifetime.

Just consider the depth and breadth of his work, the great, cool, stick-with-you-forever movies, going back to Five Easy Pieces and Easy Rider, Chinatown and Carnal Knowledge, The Shining and Prizzi’s Honor, A Few Good Men and Hoffa, Terms of Endearment and The Two Jakes, Batman and The Crossing Guard (Ok, had to throw one of my personal faves in there. Crossing Guard was not a big blockbuster, but a great indy film directed by Shawn Penn)

Anyway, what an actor. And add this one to his best work.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 01:09 AM | Link to this

can’t believe i forgot perhaps my FAVORITE NICHOLSON MOVIE _ “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.” Awesome stuff.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2006 02:23 AM | Link to this

DOB: I like this. I got Magic Potion. Just popped it in. In Long Beach we have Fingerprints. It’s a pretty sharp little Indy music shop. Has most of the stuff you can’t find in other places and none of the other stuff you do find in other places. That is to say, no Britney. No NSYNC and so forth. But it is limited in space and therefore it’s selection can be a little less robust with the bands you are seeking. Take tonight for instance. I picked up the Black Keys. I read all the blogs about them, I had my notes, I had them organized, I was ready. I was ready to spend some time deliberating and making the best choice. I got to Fingerprints. Rummaged through the used section, (that’s always the first stop. They have a fabulous buy-back policy so it’s like new but half the price.) But alas there were no Black Keys. Good sign. I then went to the new section. Sorted through that and came up empty. Finally I talked to a guy behind the desk. He managed to pull the final CD they had from the band. It was Magic Potion. All my scribbling was for naught. I had one CD I could buy and I bought it. And track 3 just came on and I thought it was Led Zeppelin. Not too shabby.

But, Fingerprints is no Amoeba Records. But I don’t always have the time to drive up there. I try to stay out of LA if at all possible anyway.

Along with this I picked up the new Killers. I really enjoyed that first album. This one I need to listen to a little more. But so far it’s lacking a little. I also picked up a Kings of Leon CD. I’ve never listend to this band, but NPR is propping them up and their name is dropped a lot in the Indy scene out here so I have to see.
The new Jet is like the first one. They’re good. But they have this way of sounding like a manufactured band. I’m not sure if I’m being suckered into a rock version of the Spice Girls or if it’s legit. Maybe because their sound is so dead on to old school 60s/70s. They “borrow” a lot. It’sw good, but not mind blowing, if that makes since.
The new Beck is about what you’d expect after all this time. So far it isn’t his strongest. But after Sea Change he’s lifted the bar so high that it’s quite a feat to over come. I’ll give it some more time. Guero had to grow on me, but I’ve really begun to enjoy that one more than I thought I would.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2006 02:54 AM | Link to this

Pixies is in my changer. After the Keys, the Pixies came on. I swear. This frickin band is amazing. Every time I hear them they hit the spot. I [heart] Pixies. I saw them play a few years ago at Coachela. Best 70 bucks I ever spent. Beck played. He took requests. He came on stage with nothing but his accoustic and took requests. It was amazing. Then Death Cab. Then the Pixies. And to close it out, Radiohead. 70 dollars for that! If it hadn’t been 200 degrees in the desert, it would have been absolutely pefectly flawless. But even still, I can’t really complain.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this

I think [Sheffield] is still a good player and if the Yanks don’t want him, I’m sure there will be a line of teams to get him including the Red Sox.

Any team that acquires Sheffield will likely have to pay out much more than he’s worth. He was a great player, but he’ll be 38 next season. The risk far outweighs the reward. A team like the Red Sox would never take that kind of risk.

By Robert

October 9, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this

“Why is it even the fans know Reitsma’s the root of all evil (and we have some mighty understanding fans) but the organization has no clue?”

Cuz all the organization knows about him is that cox say “Reitsie’s been throwing the ball real good … it was just one bad pitch”

“By the way, Robert, I’m assuming you must not be including Eddie Mathews when you say Sheff’s the best non-pitcher besides Aaron to play for the Braves, because Eddie played most of his career with the Milwaukee Braves. Right?”

I included Mathews - a very good player, and a good comp to Chipper - but stats say Sheffield is a bump above - scroll up for the data

DOB - your list - The only guy that even remotely compares to Sheffield is Palmiero

“I’ve NEVER heard any of the writers _ and we’re the ones who vote for the Hall _ call Sheff a first-ballot Hall of Famer”

The press doesnt like him.

“Joe Torre is a phenomenal manager and there’s NO ONE they could get to better handle that team, in that town, than Torre.”

Wait a minute now - I thought Cox was the best.

“Robert, did I hear you say you’d do Ali G in a heartbeat”

Hey, Ali G looks pretty good too :P

” do think Cox has done more with less the last five or six years”

in short, who cares what he does with “less” when he has shown again and again that he cant do jack with “more” or even with “most”

“Valid arguements do more to help your point than statements like that. For instance, when you are asked to name a better counter part, say something other than “anyone” or “a monkey”. For that matter, who would you like in his place? And why that particular person. I’m seeking a living, breathing, active major league manager for an answer.”

Ok TP. Next time I will type out the list of the other 29 then-current major league managers. And after that I’ll type out the US census - When I say ANYbody but Bobby Cox, I mean, ANYbody but Bobby Cox. Til now, I preferred to draw the blank line and let y’all fill in the name of your choice.

“Leyland ….. The man just gets the best from his players in the postseason, no question”

What a concept. How can you write THAT, and then defend Bobby Cox’s nonexistant managerial “skills”

As for being mad at JS - Well, for not firing Dipstick, yes.

By 2006 METS

October 9, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this

I say Mets in six over the Cards…….

By Lew

October 9, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Morning Robert-Obviously a good night’s sleep didn’t change your opinion of BC. Sorry, Dude, I can’t agree about Sheff. He’s just another pumped up player with pumped up stats in a pumped up era. He’s nothing spectacular or out of the ordinary. Check out his pre strike stas compared to his post strike stats (just like the HOF voters will) and tell me it was just natural development. He is an unlikeable player and (like it or not) will be judged because of this by the voters. I’d be surprised if he makes the HOF, don’t think he should and definitely it won’t be on a first ballot, if at all. I’m telling you this steroid thing will end up biting a lot of players in the butt. It may be un-American to judge without proof, but you know it will happen.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

Robert,

I know Reitsma is not a great pitcher, but could he have looked like a bad pitcher because of injuries? I mean, most years he is at least a decent pitcher.

This may be hard for you to believe, but sometimes other factors like injuries cause players to underperform their abilities. We’d like to believe that players don’t play hurt, but that’s not always the case.

The Case For Cox:

1. All those division titles and winning records.

2. No player ever says anything bad about him while they are in Atlanta or once they’ve left.

3. In several seasons, his teams weren’t picked to win and/or didn’t have the most talent but they won.

The Case Against Cox:

1. Only one World Series title.

As I said before, Cox deserves some blame for the Braves only winning one World Series, but there is plenty of blame to go around. There is absolutely no reason to believe Cox is soley responsible for the Braves’ post-season failures.

And, I agree, Cox is not the only reason for the Braves’ division titles and what success they’ve had in the post-season, but his done at the very least as fine a job as any other manager in baseball over the last 15 or so years.

It’s hard to argue that Cox is not at the very least a decent manager when he’s won several division titles with teams that had inferior talent compared to other teams in their division, players and other people inside baseball have nothing but great things to say about him, and he’s won so much. Maybe if only one of these things were true of Cox, you could make the argument he’s just been lucky. But looking at the big picture, I don’t know how any reasonable person could say Cox is a bad manager.

By geauxbraves2000

October 9, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

Gonna have to agree, Mets over Cards, might not take six though. The Mets’ starting pitching right now may not be anything to write home about, but they held their own in the NLDS and they have the best pen in the NL, they are going to be tough to beat.

Detroit/A’s, too close to call, may go 7.

I’m out, have a nice day all.

Geaux Braves!!

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this

Lew,

As much as I’d love to disagree with Robert, I do think Sheffield will eventually get into the Hall of Fame. He will probably have to wait a while until the voters figure out what to do with the steroid-era slugger, but I think he’ll get in.

Of the ten most similar players to Sheffield, five are Hall of Famers and the other five are Jeff Bagwell, Ken Griffey Jr., Fred McGriff, Frank Thomas and Jim Rice.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sheffga01.shtml

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 9, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

I know it was two days ago, and I’m not trying to rub anything in, but I saw where Matthew was calling the Hogs so I had to say something about it. For once, Arkansas actually played a complete football game. We were really handed wins in the Vandy and Alabama games, but they played well against a damn good Auburn team. And Tom A. Hawk don’t hold it against all Ark. fans for some fans’ manners. Since we don’t have any other sports anywhere close to this area, some hog fans tend to get a little rabid sometimes because that’s all we have to cheer for: The hogs and Bill Clinton and we’re not even gonna try to go there….I also would like to express my agreement with whoever said that Short-tempered Steinbrenner will not find another manager who can produce and handle the City of New York any more than Torre has. I’m the biggest Yankee hater of them all but firing Torre would be like firing Mike Krzyzewski. Makes no sense. The world will be a better place when Steinbrenner is out of baseball.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 9, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

journalist jimmy smith returns from a weekend in asheville only to find another journalist jimmy smith has posted here in this journalist’s absence. oh, the familiarity! and now, bobby cox … bobby is not always well groomed, nor is he blessed with good manners. he can sometimes scratch at the wrong times while on television and he is well-known for the occasional on-camera probe deep into the proboscis. still, he is the manager of the atlanta braves and is worthy of our support. this journalist gets angry with some bobby cox decisions but all is brought back into perspective when joe torre is fired for failings of the yankees. a new coaching staff, carefully selected, may make bobby cox look much better in 2007. certainly some new arms in the bullpen will help (unless he stubbornly insists on using reitsma all the time - arrgghh!…) now, ice skaters … this journalist knows nothing about ice skating and can offer no comments other than it is amazing how fast goofy can get around on a pair of skates.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 9, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

And another thing, When I came in from hunting and turned on the t.v. the top story on ESPN was “Yankees eliminated.” How about showing the Tigers a little respect and acknowledging that they actually won the series, instead of trying to break down why the Yankees didn’t….I watched 30 minutes of Torre and Jeter interviews asking “how do you feel”, and “what do you think will happen next” and how does this loss compare to blah, blah, blah, freakin’ blah.” Not once did anyone metion how well the Tigers played. Not once did anyone mention how well Bonderman, Rogers, and company performed. Not for one second did they show the Tigers celebration or an interview with Leyland, or Pudge or anybody except the Golden Boy, DJ himself. They may have showed this stuff later, but I didn’t catch it because after a half hour of watching ESPN cry on the Yankees’ shoulder I got sick to my stomach and turned the t.v. off……..disgusting.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 9, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

One more thing for Grinch, or Matthew, or whoever watched the Auburn/Ark. game:

What the hell was that trick play called? I never played football (it cut into my hunting time) but I have watched enough to realize that that play was something I have never seen before in my life. Is there a name for that, or should we just call it the 6th grade-recess-playground formation. Is that what they call a fumble-rooskie? Help me out here.

By Lew

October 9, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

Shaun-Of that list of five-I would not be surprised if Griffey, Jr. were the only one voted into the HOF. Rice is, like Murphy, a casualty of the pumped up era that came after him. Bagwell is 50-50, so is McGriff and Frank Thomas. You have to figure that A. You can’t judge this group by those already in the HOF. B.Coming from the era that people are now beginning to acknowledge as being pumped and juiced, criteria for HOF admission are about to change. A lot of players will be judged without benefit of positive tests, rightly or wrongly, you know it will happen anyway. I’m sorry, but 500 HR and 1500 RBI just isn’t HOF material anymore: too many players have been achieving these numbers. Go back and look at how many 500 HR hitters there were through the mid 80’s and look how many there are now. I know it’s not all just the juice. Look at the size of stadiums these days. Connie Mack Stadium had a 447 ft. centerfield fence. So did Forbes in Pittsburgh. Stadiums these days (look at Philly and HOuston) are jokes. How many people on this blog could hit one out in a batting practice situation? For the pros like Howard, it is common practice everyday. No-It is time to wake up to reality and change our thoughts of what constitutes greatness. Now you may notice I exempted Ken Griffey Jr. from your list. If he had remained healthy in Cincinnati, Bonds would be chasing both Hank AND GRiffey right now. He IS a great player. The others were just part of a large group from an era of insane offense. Remember-According to baseball, Chicks dig the long ball. Ask Glavine.

By 2006 METS

October 9, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

How do you think Met fans feel? We sweep the Dodgers and now are the only team in NYC in the playoffs and all we hear about is the soap opera that are the Yankees…

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

Lew,

Well, if it’s just Griffey that’s six players similar to Sheffield in the Hall. But I think McGriff has a great shot. I’d be surprised if Thomas isn’t in within his first three-five years of elligibility.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

Lew,

And maybe I’m nieve, but I think things like on-base and slugging percentage are going to become increasingly important in Hall of Fame voting. Sheffield did more than hit homeruns: He drew a lot of walks and hardly struck out. He’ll have to wait for better players to get in, but he’ll get in eventually.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 9, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

“Wainwright, who became the closer in late September, has been terrific, saving five games in his last five chances, including all three Division Series games.”

oh, the humanity!!!

By KC

October 9, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

2006 METS:

I can definitely feel your pain on that one. I’m a big San Antonio Spurs fan, and a few years ago when they finally knocked off the Lakers, all I could find anywhere in the national media is “What went wrong with the Lakers?”. There was hardly even an acknowledgment of what the Spurs had just accomplished.

When they’re any good at all… The Yankees get all the attention in baseball, and the Lakers get all the press in basketball. I hate it, but that’s just the way it is I guess.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 9, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

oprah has collapsed! yes, that’s right … oprah has collapsed. how can we talk baseball at a time like this? oh, the humanity!

By ernesto

October 9, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

I wonder who is in worse shape, turning things around wise, the Braves or the Yankees. One could argue that the Yanks might not really need to turn things around. They’ve got an All-Star top to bottom line up and big name pitchers who failed to live up to potential. One could also argue they didn’t get it done with that super-expensive line up and the only thing that’s going to change next year is everyone will be a year older. And how much changing can the Yanks do? The only team that can afford to take on the over-paid contracts many of their big name players have is the Yankees themselves. Who’s going to take Giambi, or Shef, or Wright, or (insert huge contract here) off their hands. They are kind of stuck with what they have. Of course what they have has won a whole bunch of games for them.

The Braves on the other hand, similarly suffered from underachieving superstars and ill-timed injuries…and didn’t make the playoffs, of course. I’m not nearly as optimistic about the pitching staff as some (C. James has a bright future, but everyone else is a huge question mark). But the Bravos have much more manueverability. HOw glad are we not to be stuck with Johnson’s contract? Wright’s contract? Or even Farnsworth’s contract.

All things being equal I think both teams are at a crossroads in terms of needing a change. The Braves have reason to hope that a few tweaks might produce big results. The Yanks have got to be close to being tweeaked out…unless they’re going to a 300 mil payroll.

By rammerjammer

October 9, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

WAY TO GO, TIGERS! Boy, didn’t the Yankees prove again that axiom about pitching? Braves take note (fortunately, JS has)…it’s all about the pitching, especially starting pitching. Smoltz was right about his value as a starter vs. reliever. There was nothing for Mariano to save.

By flbravesgirl

October 9, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

It does seem like every headline the last couple of days has been about the Yankees. Time for the national media to come out of mourning and talk about the teams that actually won.

Hey, Lew, this chick digs pitching duels. :)

Grinch, Tanith is definitely not a Hobbit, although I admit her name does sound like it. She and her partner, Ben Agosto, are our top ice dancers. They won the silver in Torino, which is a really big deal since the US has stunk in ice dance basically since the beginning of time. She’s so gorgeous that I would hate her except that they’re great skaters and she seems to be a genuinely nice person.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

ernesto,

I don’t know. The Yankees will probably sign Zito simply because they can. They’ll probably acquire more pitching. Most of their regulars are under contract. They should do what they always do and win 90-100 games.

And they are the one team that doesn’t have to worry about being “stuck” with contracts. Unlike every other team, they can pay whatver buyouts they need to if a player becomes too unproductive.

You mentioned Giambi and Sheffield, but they are actually plenty productive for the Yanks. Sure signing Wright and others was a mistake, but it doesn’t matter much to them.

The Braves are in a very good position to contend but probably have more to do than the Yankees if they want to win 90-100 games.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 9, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

Seems like the Yankees clicked more when Jeter and Bernie were their biggest stars. Now they got all this storebought talent and the chemistry isn’t there. Not saying they weren’t goo players,(look at WS rings) but Brosius, Charlie Hayes, Tino Martinez,and (lets see if I can say this) Leyri-ri-ri….ugh, I can’t do it. Anyway that guy named Jim L. They’re not exactly A-rod, Giambi, and Sheffield-type players. Money can’t buy the most important thing in playoff baseball, imo, and that is team chemistry. The ‘02 Angels had it, the ‘96, ‘98, ‘99, ‘00 Yanks had it, the ‘04 Red Sox had it, the ‘05 White Sox had it, and now the Tigers have it. That’s why they’re gonna win the Series this year. Write it down and I’ll sign it……

By ernesto

October 9, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Robert, I can’t believe I’m going to start this again, but to say that Cox doesn’t get the most out of his players? How many times has a washed up pitcher or some other player that was some other team’s problem (Shef, Drew w/ his injuries) come to the Braves and had a career year? Think of hte pitchers alone…a quick stint with Bobby has made many a player rich in subsequent deals. Or maybe take it from the players around the league who all laude Cox’s abilities. Now, granted he shouldn’t have had Sid Bream still in the game running from second, but that worked out…so let up on the guy.

By Robert

October 9, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

“I can’t agree about Sheff. He’s just another pumped up player with pumped up stats in a pumped up era.”

So first, name me the player who is above suspicion in these times (the answer is nobody)

Second, the best players from each era go, even if they are all on steroids - Makes comparison of raw numbers between eras difficult, but if all of them are on the stuff, then their numbers relative to EACH OTHER are the same

ADJUSTED OPS is an attempt to normalize everything. Look at the guys who are in the high 140’s, like Sheff -

His contemporary comps are ARod, Piazza, Guerrero, Thome - name me the nonHOFer in THAT group. Among his older comps, there’s VERY few guys that arent 19th century players who are in his production league who dont get in

What’s going agaiunst him is that association, not with performance enhancement so much, but with the devil himself (Barry Bonds)

As for being likeable - there’s too many likeable guys in the HOF who dont belong, and some unlikeables who do (Dick Allen for one)

The HOFer SHOULD be not about likeability but admirability - as in the performance on the field

Emotional decisions and emotion biased reasoning are why Mazeroski and Drysdale are in and why Dick Allen isnt

That similarity comparison - the most similar player is Bagwell at 895. A similarity under 900 isnt all at similar -

One of the things that distinguishes HOFers is that there are very few players truly similar to them

Sheffield is an awesome hitter, a big time run producer, and a threat on the basepaths, and has been this solid triple threat for going on 2 decades. The only guy really like him (tho two steps then again above him - is Bonds)

The HOF is talking about guys like Dawson and Santo and ignores Dick Allen and Sheffield?

If it’s the Hall of Media Admiration, then I guess Cox has a shot too

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Here’s something interesting—projections for 2007:

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/2007zipsprojectionsatlantabraves/

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

Arkansas Hillbilly,

Seems like the Yankees clicked more when their pitchers consistently finished in the top 3-4 in the league in strikouts.

Here’s a little exerpt from the Baseball Prospectus guys (From chapter 9-3 of Baseball Between the Numbers: Why Doesn’t Billy Beane’s S* Work in the Playoffs? by Nate Silver and Dayn Perry) http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=betweenthenumbers/billybeane/060405

After any number of permutations of the twenty-six variables in our database, we identified three factors that have the most fundamental and direct relationship with Playoff Success Points. These variables are as follows:

Closer’s performance

Pitcher strikeout rate

Defense

Don’t see chemisty in there anywhere.

By Robert

October 9, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

“It’s hard to argue that Cox is not at the very least a decent manager when he’s won several division titles with teams that had inferior talent compared to other teams in their division, players and other people inside baseball have nothing but great things to say about him, and he’s won so much”

It’s very easy to argue that he is not a decent manager, when, before those teams that MIGHT not have looked as good as someone else in the division, he failed to do anything with teams that were way ahead of the rest of the field. teams that might have been better than him had two of the managers who are closest to his level of managerial incomopetance - (Valentine and Bowa)

I never heard anyone say bad things about Bozo the Clown either, and his run on tv lasted far longer than Bobby’s division title streak - Still, I wouldnt want either as my favorite team’s manager (if in fact they are two seperate people - Has anyone ever seen Cox and Bozo together at the same time?)

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

“DOB - your list - The only guy that even remotely compares to Sheffield is Palmiero.”

Well, Palmeiro’s not getting in on first ballot, I guarantee you that.

“The press doesnt like him [Sheffield].”

If that were the case, it’d undermine your very point that he’s a first-ballot Hall of Famer, since the press are the only ones that are going to vote. Fortunately for Sheff, you’re wrong. He was one of my very favorite players to cover, and others who covered the Braves or Marlins beats at the same time as me _ Dan Graziano (now covers Yankees), Mark Bowman, Bill Zack, among others _ felt the same way. All loved him.

AND PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THESE TWO DON’T EVEN “REMOTELY” compare. Two very different players in terms of average and OBP, but just examine the other stats and keep in mind, defense should count for SOMETHING and does with most voters, as does how a player compared with others in his era:

Sheffield: .297 with 418 doubles, 24 triples, 455 homers, 1,501 RBIs, 220 SBs, .923 OPS, no Gold Gloves, five Silver Slugger awards, two MVP runner-ups (his next-highest MVP finish was seventh), one Sporting News major league player of the year award (1992).

Dawson: .279 with 503 doubles, 98 triples, 438 homers, 1,591 RBIs, 314 SBs, .805 OPS, Rookie of the Year (1977), eight Gold Gloves, four Silver Slugger awards, one MVP award, two MVP runner-ups, two Sporting News major league player of the year awards (1981, 1987)

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this

Oh, and for what it’s worth, Gary Sheffield is the ONLY ballplayer that I’ve ever known to have had a baseball writer (the widely respected Bob Nightengale) in his wedding.

By Robert

October 9, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

“quick stint with Bobby has made many a player rich in subsequent deals”

Hmm - I never knew it was Bobby that helped those pitchers. I always figured Bobby never saw anything wrong with those pitchers, cuz they were all always “throwing real good”

I dont know how rich he’ll get, but Cox certainly extended Reitsma’s career, I’ll give you that

I guess maybe Tim Hudson somehow offended Bobby and so Bobby stopped being willing to learn him how to pitch goodly and that’s why Hudson’s ERA went from three and a half to five - (in the year after _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ left , dont wanna mention his name, it might be sacrilege in the church of BC)

There’s also no question that JD Drew had his to-date career year (and to date only full healthy year) under Cox’ “tutelage” in Atlanta - Rumor has it that the big pharmaceutical firms are spending millions looking into the healing powers of donkey dung

After a quick stint with Bobby, all that most players notice is that they have to clean their shoes

By Robert

October 9, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

Dave - a .923 OPS and an .805 OPS are not in the same area code

There is no single stat that can, in all cases, tell us how good a player was, or much they contributed to producing x,y,orz, but adjusted OPS is about the best thing we have as far as determining overall run-producing ability

Dawson’s comps include some HOFers - Banks (a SS), Winfield, Kaline (134 OPS, so far better than Dawson), BWilliams, and TPerez (who shouldnt be there) - his comp list also includes Baines,Evans, Pinson,Parker - and the rest of the crew of wannabes)

Sheff’s comps include Stargell, DSnider, EMathews, Mantle -

BWilliams and McGriff are the two commons on the comp list. Interesting, as McGriff is, to me, close to the definition of the borderline

ALL of these guys were very fine players, far above the big league average. But I hope I dont have to convince you that Mantle Mathews and Snider were better than Pinson, Evans, and Baines

Those awards, who selects them? You want to justify voting for Dawson because of all the awards your colleagues voted for Dawson along the way — You’re referring to yourself to prove your own arguement. And this is not saying the awards werent justified, or that looking at awards doesnt count for something, or that defense doesnt count for something

Tell me you dont have a vote DOB. Although it explains a lot. I guess noone ever showed uyou guys why Norm Cash and Dick Allen were better players than Ron Santo, Jim Rice, and Andre Dawson (or Rizzuto)

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

Robert, I just noticed your line about Cox “having a shot, too.”

On that one, my friend, you need not worry. Cox will, without question, be in the Hall of Fame. Mortal lock.

Strange thing is, you make very valid and lucid points and arguments in every other baseball subject, without fail. You come across as reasoned and learned on other baseball matters…except one.

You undermine so much of your credibility with silly “Hee-Haw” comments and wild, unreasoned statements that convince seemingly no one of your assertions about Cox. I mean, there just has to be something personal, right?

Otherwise, how could your otherwise reasoned views be so wildly disparate from the baseball cognezenti when it comes to Cox, and Cox only.

I mean, think about it: You’re trying unrelentingly to convince everyone that the man who has more Manager of the Year awards from writers than anyone else, who has more wins than any active manager except Tony La Russa, who was voted by players in both leagues as the overwhelming choice for best manager each of the past two years in the Sports Illustrated survey, and whom Omar Minaya told me last winter was the “best baseball man” he’s ever known _ you’re trying to convince everyone he’s a clown and a bad manager.

Come on, Robert. You don’t really think everyone’s gonna shuck all that other evidence and others’ views aside, even though you claim _ sounding a bit like Oliver Stone, I have to say _ that yours is the enlightened view from afar on Cox, while EVERY ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE in the business has an agenda, a reason for believing Cox is the best (my favorite was your contention that writers in other cities including the Northeast vote him manager of the year because they want him to stay with Atlanta so THEIR teams can continue to do better than the Braves in the postseason; if you knew about this business I’m in, you’d know that’s utterly preposterous simply because most of the writers who cover those teams in the Northeast actually don’t like them much, and many actually despise and MOCK the teams they cover, though to protect colleagues I’m going to leave one team in particular unnamed).

If I didn’t know you were a smart person (which I do, from your other points and assertions), and someone showed me only your posts about Cox, and your logic and “Hee Haw” and “Donkey in the Dugout” posts, I swear I’d wonder if you were a sane person. Please don’t take that the wrong way _ as I said, I know you’re quite smart. I said “if” someone showed me only those posts about Cox.

By Dave from Satellite Bch, Fl

October 9, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

I’m still p#!+ed at the Braves TV station next year. I guess the know it alls forgot that the Braves were America’s team b/c of the large no. of broadcasts. Oh yeah, I forgot Heading South network is picking up the other games. Not everyone is blessed with Headin’ South. Anyway thanks Don, Skip, Pete and everyone else, we wouldn’t have had a chance to watch the best crew in MLB TV anyway.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

SHAUN WROTE: “As much as I’d love to disagree with Robert, I do think Sheffield will eventually get into the Hall of Fame. He will probably have to wait a while until the voters figure out what to do with the steroid-era slugger, but I think he’ll get in.

“Of the ten most similar players to Sheffield, five are Hall of Famers and the other five are Jeff Bagwell, Ken Griffey Jr., Fred McGriff, Frank Thomas and Jim Rice.”

SHAUN, I think we all agree Sheff could well end up in the Hall, and I believe he almost certainly will with another couple of good to great seasons of 30 or more homers, 100 RBIs and his usual high average.

My only contention was that right now, he’s not a first-ballot Hall of Famer. And of the guys you compared him to, only Griffey is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. I think some folks forget that there are many years when one or no players are elected to the Hall of Fame. It’s very, very exclusive, much more so than the other sports’ Halls of Fame. Think about it, what other sport could you have where a two-time MVP (Dale Murphy), who was acknowledged as the best player in his league for two seasons, doesn’t even come close to making the Hall? (And I’m not saying he should be in, just pointing out he hasn’t come close, and won’t.)

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Except I’ve never heard of baseball players, general managers, other field managers, the press say anything bad about Bobby Cox; they all praise Cox for the environment he creates. The Bozo the Clown comparison is rediculous.

You say he didn’t do anything with teams that were way ahead of the rest of the teams in the division, but didn’t he beat the rest of the teams in the division?

I still haven’t seen you provide any evidence to back up your claim that Cox is a horrible manager (except maybe anecdotal things that are mistakes in your book).

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Here’s an interesting study about managers:

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primatestudies/discussion/evaluatingmanagerspart1of2/

Bobby Cox ranks as the 30th best manager ever. Even if there are flaws in the study, would Bobby Cox rank as the 30th best manager of all time if he were horrible?

So, there are subjective reasons why we should think Cox is at least a decent manager (reputation, etc.) and now this study, while not perfect, gives us something closer to objectivity.

How can you still deny Cox is at least a pretty good manager? I can understand saying Cox (or managers in general) don’t have that much control, but saying Cox is a horrible manager seems to be making a lot of huge assumptions.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

Payne: Don’t see chemisty in there anywhere
What is the stat for chemistry?

Next time I will type out the list of the other 29
Still can’t answer the question? Can’t pick a name, one name and stand behind it and argue for that guy? If anybody will do, than one of them could be listed with all the qualifications as to what makes him better. Just one. One name and why. Try it out. Try to build an arguement that isn’t based on negative assesments. That is to say, instead of saying Manager X because he isn’t Cox. Come up with a valid arguement.
It’s like talking to an emancipated 8th grade lemon aid salesman… oh wait.

the best players from each era go
I don’t think he is the best player of his era. He did come up with Piazza, A-Rod, Bonds, Griffy Jr, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens. This isn’t to say I think it’s impossible for him to get in, I just don’t think he’s a first ballot guy. How’s that for being born under a bad sign.

Makes comparison of raw numbers between eras difficult
So difficult you can easily brush off a guy (Eddie Mathews) who played nearly his entire career as a Brave, for a guy who played two seasons?

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

I agree. My point was Sheffield is comparable to five already Hall of Famers and maybe at least one, two or three more.

I do think Griffey is first ballot. I also think Thomas will almost certainly get in, especially if he has a couple of more years like 2006. McGriff and Bagwell have fairly decent shots, too—I’d guess maybe 50-50 for those two.

I also think the realization of the importance of on-base percentage will only help guys like Sheffield and the Big Hurt.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Good point. Chemistry probably does matter, but probably not as much as some would like to think. And good chemistry is probably going to show up in the stats. Chemistry is probably not going to turn a finesse pitcher into a power pitcher or a singles hitter into a power hitter. If a team’s pitchers have a low strikeout rate, chemistry is probably not enough to turn that around. Chemistry is probably not going to help a closer perform signifcantly better. Chemistry is not going to make a team’s defense significantly better.

I know it’s very anecdotal, but you can look at great teams throughout history and some had excellent chemistry and some of them were like a Jerry Springer episode. Chemistry matters, but not as much as talent.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Also, I’m sure there are extreme examples where chemistry matters more because it affects talent more. If chemistry made a very significant difference, I don’t think player performance would be as predictable as it is.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

Payne: I think Bagwell has a better shot than McGriff. But we’ll see. I agree that Thomas should be in there. One more season like this and he’s in for sure. If the A’s get their way, he’ll have two more seasons to build on the numbers

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 9, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

10Paul you beat me to it. I’m not a number cruncher. Its based strictly on observation. That’s why I said, “in my opinion.” I’m sure the physical stats point to pitching and defense. That’s an obvious assumption even for me. A good defense is the best offense in any sport. But I’m looking beyond that.

Team chemistry and strikeouts = apples and oranges

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

ROBERT, I do have a Hall of Fame vote, but haven’t been able to utilize it for two years because of our new AJC policy regarding voting on any awards or in any polls. I have a Hall vote based on 10 consecutive years of BBWAA membership, the qualifying standard.

You’re basing your Hall qualifications entirely on stats, and mercifully there are plenty of writers who don’t, especially older writers. Classic example: You say Perez doesn’t belong in Hall. Almost any writer who covered baseball during that era, and certainly most players who played against him, would strongly disagree. Perez is cited unanimously by other members of the Big Red Machine as the unquestioned leader on the field and in the clubhouse for that team, one of the greatest teams in major league history.

Just as intangibles and consistent RBI production in a non-juiced era helped Tony Perez get in, intangibles will assure Jeter gets in despite his less-than-overwhelming numbers. As a player from the 70s if Tony Perez belongs in the Hall, and I’d almost guarantee you the answer is yes.

As several bloggers have correctly pointed out, comparing home-run totals and slugging percentages between eras is far less accurate now, since 30-homer seasons have become relatively routine in the past 15 years and were the mark of a true power hitter before that.

To me, Eddie Mathews hitting 30 or more homers in nine consecutive seasons in a non-juiced era where so few players hit that many homers, marks him as a better power hitter than Gary Sheffield, who, as I pointed out, hasn’t had nine 30-homer seasons in his entire career since 1990, in the prime of the juiced era (and his connection to the Balco scandal certainly makes at least a few of his seasons tainted by anyone who cares about such matters).

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Yeah, Bagwell has the MVP’s. McGriff was more of an Eddie Murray type—consistent.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

Arkansas Hillbilly,

But, based on observation, there are just as many championship teams that reportedly had bad chemistry—the Yankees of the late 1970’s, the Cubs of the early part of the century, the ‘70’s A’s, to name a few. Chemistry probably matters, but not significantly.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 9, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

Shaun, we’re comparing to completely different facets of the game. But I’m a firm believer that, and again this is strictly opinion, attitude affects performance. Naturally a team with good chemistry, and no talent isn’t even gonna be in contention to start with. But I was comparing a talented team with no chemistry (present-day Yanks) with a talented team with better chemistry (Yanks of the late 90s). Now with that being said, the Tigers pitching dominated the Yanks bats. That’s one reason why they’re moving on and the Yanks are moving out. They have a good combo of talent and emotion.

By The Grinch

October 9, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

Morning, All. Robert, that “Bozo” comment was hilarious. Shaun, I agree Reitsma was merely mediocre before he hurt himself rather than awful, but when you’re hurt real bad and you know it, every other pitch you throw gets hammered for three straight months and your manager’s too stupid/hardheaded to even ask you if there’s anything wrong when you blow about 20 games in a row, and YOU KEEP ON PITCHING ANYWAY, blowing the season and ending the Braves streak…that’s not loyalty or competitiveness. That’s being someone who needs a solid beatdown immediately prior to their one-way bus ticket to New Zealand (yes, I know busses don’t float).

Arkansas Hillbilly, I didn’t have the luxury of watching that game, I was out doing yardwork. I just noticed the score when I came back in. If you could break down who did what on the play (not everyone, just the QB, running back(s) and recievers), I could probably tell you what it’s called. Teams in college (and even sometimes the pros, especially the Steelers) sometimes break out a high school play or two because they’re not expected.

Flbgirl, did you really say “This chick digs pitching duels?” That, and a good red velvet cake can take you a long way. :-)

By AZBravoFan

October 9, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Dave, If Pendleton were hired away, what would you think of David Justice as hitting coach? Don’t know if he even has any interest in coaching, but it would seem like a good opportunity to get the Braves one true clutch hitter back in the fold.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

Arkansas Hillbilly,

Well, I would say (and I think the numbers back me up) that the Yankees of the late ‘90’s were more talented than the ‘06 Yankees—specifically their pitching staffs—and this is why they aren’t moving on. Strikeout rate is a major factor in post-season success and Yankee pitchers struckout more batters in the late ‘90’s than they did in ‘06. Tigers pitchers in ‘06 struckout more batters than any team in the league, and that’s why they’re moving on.

By Shaun

October 9, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

AZBravoFan,

I like the idea of David Justice as hitting coach. He was a “professional,” disciplined hitter.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Payne: My point was, you won’t see intangibles listed among the top stats because they are intangible. It’s hard to say how much they affect the game. You can trade for T.O., or Meltdown Bradely and get a talented player. Put him on some teams, and the system blows up (Jeff Kent/Meltdown) put them on others and the reaction is counter balanced with other chemicals in the mixture.

By Robert

October 9, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

“Still can’t answer the question? Can’t pick a name, one name and stand behind it and argue for that guy? If anybody will do, than one of them could be listed with all the qualifications as to what makes him better.”

Ok - one name. Tennessee Paul - Why? Because no matter how many dumb moves he might make, he wouldnt make as many dumb moves as Cox

Now, I can go thru the phone book and do this for every name in there, if you like

Jim Leyland - because his teams are better when he manages than when he doesnt manage

Leo Mazzone - because the pitchers improve when he comes and board and get worse when he leaves

I am not brushing off Mathews. He was a great player and a deserving HOfer. An unbiased unemotional analysis of the stats says that Sheffield is a little bit better - better adjusted OPS, 20-some points better career BA

DOB - the HOF is not too exclusive. As a matter of fact, it is far too inclusive. Guys are in who dont really belong (Mazeroski, Rizutto, Rice, Perez, Drysdale to name a few, and there are movements/sentiments for guys who in no way belong (Dawson,Canseco, Garvey, Santo, Blyleven, Murphy, Hernandez, and so on). It really has become where any guy who is in any way comparable to the worst HOFer already enshrined is made out to have a case

Career adjusted OPS - If you think 145 is equal to 128 or 119 - then I cant help that I guess.

“Also, I’m sure there are extreme examples where chemistry matters more because it affects talent more. If chemistry made a very significant difference, I don’t think player performance would be as predictable as it is.”

Barry Bonds would appear to be the classic hyperresponder (albeit unproven)

“

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 9, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Grinch here goes,

Arkansas huddles AT the line of scrimmage, when they break huddle one guy ,a reciever, I think, who was kneeling hidden in the huddle, remains kneeling, concealed by the linemen getting into formation. Now, with the kneeler hidden behind the right guard, out of sight of the defense. center snaps the ball. I couldn’t tell if the QB handed the ball to the kneeler, or if he just laid it on the ground and the hidden player picked it up and ran like a scalded dog around the left end while the defense was headed the other way. He didn’t score but it was a huge gain and I think we scored a couple of plays later.

I’ve seen plays before where the ball is laid on the ground and the guard picks it up and runs, but I’ve never seen anybody crounch down on the ground and hide behind a lineman.

By KC

October 9, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

My BRAVES TOP 10 WISH LIST:

I put together my top 10 wish list a few weeks ago, but after giving it some thought, I’ve revised it slightly. I know that most of these players are very unlikely to sign with Atlanta for various reasons, but that’s why I called this a WISH list.

1 – Jason Schmidt: I think the Braves’ rotation is already well stocked with the return of Hampton and Ramirez, but Schmidt would substantially upgrade the starting staff. Power pitching usually wins in October. Yes, I know… I’ve heard that he doesn’t like to pitch at Turner field. I strongly suspect that we would adjust if he were pitching here on a regular basis.

2 – Alfonso Soriano: He can lead off and play 2B. He’d be a perfect fit in Atlanta. If the Braves were to sign him, I think they would still have a decent shot at resigning Andruw. Soriano would have to accept a slightly back-loaded deal, taking a little less over the first two seasons in ATL, and Andruw would need to take less in the first year (2008) of any new deal. After that, the Braves would have much more flexibility to pay both as the contracts of Hampton and Chipper will expire after 2008.

3 – Juan Pierre: If the Braves were to land Soriano (which I know is very unlikely) then Pierre wouldn’t be needed. However, of the available free agents, he’s the next best option for a leadoff guy. His OBP has been rather inconsistent throughout his career, but he atones for it with the havoc he wreaks on the base paths.

4 – Barry Zito: I’m not positive that he’s any better than any of the pitchers currently in our rotation (I think Tim Hudson will bounce back, and feel that HoRam is better than most people realize). Over the last 3 seasons, Zito has gone 41-34 with a 4.04. That’s nothing to write home about. However, he seems to step it up in October.

5 – Kenny Lofton: He’s still a base stealer, and a pretty good hitter (against righties anyway). Whether the Braves use him in the leadoff spot nearly every day or as a pinch-hitter/runner, it would be wonderful to have at least one real base-stealing threat on the team. Though if the Braves were to add Soriano or Pierre, then Lofton would be much less important.

6 – Danys Baez (resign): It’s unlikely that he will resign with ATL, but it sure would be nice to keep him as our setup man. He was very solid for Atlanta overall after the trade. His occasional struggles can be traced largely to health issues which are no longer a problem.

7 – Steve Kline: He’s a solid veteran lefty who could meet Atlanta’s need for a setup man (assuming Baez leaves).

8 – Wes Helms: He’s been one of the best part-time players in baseball over the last few years. Over the last 3 seasons, he hit .294 in 683 AB’s. He can play 1st, 3rd, or the outfield and would give us the right-handed pop off the bench that we’re currently lacking.

9 – Jeff Conine: If we can’t get Helms, Conine is the next best thing. He can also play 1st, 3rd, or the outfield, gives us a good right-handed bat off the bench.

10 – Jason Grimsley: He knows were to get really great vitamin supplements!

By KC

October 9, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

Robert:

I liked Mazzone a lot. I think he’s a great pitching coach. But he is still subject to the talent at hand, as is Roger McDowell who it seems to me did an excellent job this year.

“pitchers improve when he comes and board and get worse when he leaves”

The Baltimore pitching staff didn’t get the memo.

By Robert

October 9, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

Dave - ok - Have you ever heard the idea or theory that if there is one single explanation that accounts for a number of findings or problems or complaints, then it is more likely to be the correct answer than having a plethora of different problems each responsible for one of a number of complaints. If you can find one thing that ties it all together, you’re likely on the right track.

So - I hear people say that in this year it was the pitching, in that year it was the other team’s pitching, in the next year Chipper woke up with a bellyache, in the next year the wind was blowing from the wrong direction, and so on and so on

After some number of individual trivial silly excuses, it becomes preposterous, and you have to look deeper for one underlying problem that ties it all together

The Braves teams of the mid 1990’s were, player wise, some of the greatess talent teams ever assembled. For those teams to have won only one championship, there had to be something wrong - not someone’s pinky nail, not some ump’s strike zone, but something FUNDAMENTALLY wrong

So next step is to look for the common denominator.

1.John Smoltz? - a glance at his playoff record suggests that he has done MORE than his share at playoff time

2.Leo Mazzone? - well, as soon as he left, things got far worse, so he isnt the culprit

3.JS? - Maybe it should be him I am upset with, for not recognizing the problem

4.And we’re left with - The man, the dude, the manager of the year. And NOONE, even those who support him, deny that he has made lots of on field mistakes and that his playoff record isnt great

I explained in a post last night how I think that Cox’s “steady as she goes” outlook is a death sentance in the playoffs, how it sets up an outlook of nonurgancy that is non-compatible with playoff success - because like it or not, agree with it as a championship format or not, there IS urgancy to the playoffs, because it’s one series, best of 5 or 7

I have also seen Cox make innumerable mistakes in how he handles the pitching - some of the most notable of which I have often repeated

So try and tie it all together. Are the Braves the victims of an incredible streak of bad luck in the playoffs, or is there a more fundamental answer?

I vote the latter - and once you do, the logical analysis leaves no other POSSIBLE culprit than BC - I will that over the emotion biased opinions of the fans, the players, the writers, or anyone else - Logic over emotion

I further believe that luck is made. Good players, good managers, people who are good at what they do, put themselves in a position to get lucky (Maddux is the PERFECT example) - So if it IS a run of terrible luck, then STILL, the blame goes to who - The guy calling the shots durting the game

No he cant play for the players. Yes, the front office deserves some blame because they shouldnt excised the cancer years ago.

But the fundamental underlying reason that the Braves have only one WS during the supposedly great streak is the managerial philosophy, outlook, and decison making of Bobby Cox

14 division titles with one WS title.

Cake without icving just doesnt thrill me that much

The personal part - is the frustration of watching it happen every year, predictably. Of watching the Braves go up against whoever and knowing that the other manager will be able to outmaneuver, outmanipulate, and outinspire Cox

Majority opinion doesnt mean it’s right, even if it’s by people supposedly oin the inside. Can I explain the “unanimous” opinion about Cox. I can start to

1.Media bias - You dont tell us about those who dont share the party line view. They are lumped under the “wouldnt fit in here” category

2.Ulterior motives - laugh at them if you want - DOB, when you arent looking, the baseball world is laughing at your team. You can believe it or be in denial, doesnt change it. Your writer buddies know who you are. Go to New York, go to a sports bar, dont tell em youre a Braves fan, and bring up the subject, then tell me how much respect and awe the Braves inspire.

3.Lack of intelligence - Dare I say it. If the inside guys were so smart, Billy Beane wouldnt have been able to ….. oh there we go with Moneyball

13 seperate and unrelated instances of horrible luck or extenuating circumstance, vs one underlying fundamental flaw that ties it all together

It’s logic 101 my man

By The Grinch

October 9, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Arkansas Hillbilly: That play sounded exactly like the fumblerooski, only in the fumblerooski the QB sets the ball on the ground and it’s picked up by an offensive lineman, not a reciever. It has also been recently outlawed in high school, college and NFL, which confused me further. I did a little research, and learned that your coach just did a modified version of that play, ‘cause the rule doesn’t say anything about a reciever. That was the first time that particular play has ever been run, and therefore caught everyone off guard. Kudos for inventiveness. So I guess you can apply your own new name to it, like “The Arkansas Fumblerooski” or whatever you want, cause it’s new.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

Robert, sound arguments all (well, except for one subject, but that’s OK).

I’d imagine that Tim Hudson and Jason Marquis would probably disagree with you about getting better under Leo and worse without him (although to be accurate, Hudson had his worst season under Leo, then had an even worse season this year after Leo left, so nevermind that one).

Hey, I love Leo to death and I really like Sheff. Both great guys to deal with. So I’m gonna stop with both those arguments.

ANYWAY, NEW BLOG POSTED, AT LONG LAST (or should be posted very soon. It’s been filed).

By The Grinch

October 9, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumblerooski It describes the basic fumblerooski and at the bottom describes your play (crediting it to Arkansas); surprising they’ve already got it in an encyclopedia since it only happened two days ago.

By Robert

October 9, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

That managerial analsyis page was interesting. Didnt get to study it in detail but noticed a few things

Worst with individual hitters - Cox 3rd worst ever

Best pythag - wasnt that supposed to be luck? 2nd best ever Cox

So 30th best (did he do everybody, or just a certain group?) (with a rating one sixth of the best ever) - based on being second luckiest ever?

Is that what that report is saying? (dont know if it is)

Statistical analyses and sabermetric stuff to rank/rate/evaluate players is interesting but at some point you end up wondering what you’ve rated, where the unseen bias is, and so on

I go back to the basic premise - one title in 15 years with those teams means something stinks - and I think it’s ONE something, and not 14 individual somethings

As to why JS doesnt see it - have you ever been blind to a math error you made? Tried balancing your checkbook and it’s wrong over and over and it’s because every time you do it you are calculating one figue where you say 8+3 is 10 and you assume it’s right and assume it so much you dont use the calculator and you never see the mistake

That’s what the Braves front office is doing with Cox - It’s so assumed that he can NOT be the problem that they wont even look - If they did, they might go down the same trail I did in coming to my conclusions

DOB - When Greg Maddux was trotted out to face Scott Brosius in the 8th inning of game one of the 1999 WS, that is when I gave up on any Bobby Cox Braves team. You can ask the folks who watched the game with me whether or not I said “Cox just blew the series ” or you can take my word for it

By KC

October 9, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

ROBERT:

What can we say… you’re smarter than John Sheurholz, everyone else in the Braves organization, every Braves free agent who has ever signed or re-signed below market value to play for Bobby Cox. in fact, you must be smarter than 95% of everyone who makes a living in the game of baseball, because they nearly all consider Bobby Cox to be a truly great manager. And I guess you’re smarter than me, because I share that viewpoint.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Robert, they’re not MY team. As I’ve explained many times, I’m not a fan of the Braves, just a chronicler of what they do on the field.

you write: 1.Media bias - You dont tell us about those who dont share the party line view. They are lumped under the “wouldnt fit in here” category

WHO DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU ABOUT? 32 writers vote each year for manager of the year, two from each city, anonymously. Why on earth would they vote for Cox if they didn’t think he deserved it? You lose me there with your circular logic, or complete lack of logic.

It’s pretty simple _ they vote for manager of the year, MVP, rookie, etc. Two writers from each NL city.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 9, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Good Find Grinch,

Thanks for the follow up. For your efforts, I think I’ll name the play after you….j/k

By rammerjammer

October 9, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Robert, you should definitely keep it up with the Bobby Cox “donkey” references. Helps us all remember you’re making an “a*” of yourself!

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Jim Leyland - because his teams are better when he manages than when he doesnt manage
Jim lost to Cox, twice!

KC: Baez has already stated he doesn’t want to come back. He wants to be a Closer.
I don’t think any of those players will be Braves next season. Maybe Pierre, sad to say, but even then I think it’s a long shot. JS is talking about getting back to the strong pitching heritage. This seems to imply that the defense will also be improved, or at least maintained. Peirre is a step back in defense. Well, several large steps back.

By Robert

October 9, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

KC - not smarter than any of those people or entities that you mentioned (except you, of course :P)

Just not blinded by the same bias that all those insiders who are supposedly unanimous are blinded by

A different take on things - Has a fresh outlook, from someone who ISNT on the inside, ever seen a problem that wasnt noted before?

Look - after 14 no-titles in 15 years and after a 79 win season, what would the team have to lose by doing the experiment that would prove whether I am onto something?

DOB - I’m guessing the one point you disagreed with was the ulterior motives and respect thing - I know it’s a hard concept to accept that maybe the Braves arent really revered, that maybe a lot of people are telling you what you want to hear - or that you hear what you want to in what they say

The Chipper and his 100 rbi thing a few years ago was great too. “Why not let him go for the 100 rbi season streak. I see no harm” - and then boom the wrist injury

I mean, how could you not even consider that possibility?

Let’s say that all the comments about one bad pitch are just hoo-ha to avoid disiing the players in public. Hey, I dont disagree with keeping club issues just that. Lord knows the press makes mountains out of snippets of misinterpreted contextless conversation often enough - so keeping it behind closed doors is proper

The proper response to the media is “No comment” - not nonsensical gibberish

But the Chipper rbi comment, not seeing that, not addressing it - you know, if he had said “Well, I know it means something to him so we’ll let him go for it and hope nothing happens that would affect his playoff availability or performance” - i.e. - I understand there’s a risk and will take it

But the man didnt see the risk - “What could possibly happen?”

That is IDIOCY

By The Grinch

October 9, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

Dude, that was one of the freakiest things I’ve seen in a while. You said you’d name the play after me…j/k. Those are my initials. I flipped out for a minute or two, trying to think how the hell you’d know that and who you might be that I know in person (I did know a guy from Arkansas once, but that was before my nickname). It finally occured to me that since they weren’t capitalized you meant “just kidding.” Synchronicity is a strange thing, is it not?

By Lew

October 9, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

Robert-Sometimes people have their own opinions independent of DOB. Maybe most of us like BC for our own reasons. Why can’t you accept this. I am not a party line person. I will prove it to you. DOB-I got the Black Keys cd “Magic Potion”. The guy is a good guitarist, but he needs a bass player and a full band-especially a drummer worthy of his guitar work. See Robert, I have my own mind. You’re about the only one who doesn’t like BC to the point of insanity. Haven’t we beaten the whole subject to death. Do we need to see it autopsied on an episode of CSI before we can put it to rest? Please. Enough already.