Braves

By ben

August 8, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this

Right on the money as usual DOB….I think they are toast without Chipper in the lineup. Is it time to bring up Prado, Jurries and Elvis and check out the kids???? By the way, how is Stockman coming back from injury? Is Devine getting any better? Thanks

By Rodger

August 8, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

A ray of sunshine? Thats like a whole freakin’ pitcher of OJ!

Has Canseco been banned for steroids? Maybe he could pitch-and add some pop in the 9 hole!

By Jimmy Buffet

August 8, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Amen! One more time y’all…

Now, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know where the ball is gonna go, When the Braves’ starters throw.

By Mac

August 8, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Dave, one has to wonder what in the world is going on from a talent evaluation standpoint in this organization. First we evidently traded for pitchers who didn’t have the talent we thought they had (Cormier and Villareal), we traded away a pitcher that we didn’t think was good enough but he’s lighting up Detroit (Miner) and they thought he was good enough. We thought the guys we were bringing up were good enough that we traded away a dump truck load of potential starting pitchers over the last few year for the annual rent a player. When I look at where we are now, I understand the excuse for injuries but people in charge of running a ball club and people in charge of judging talent shouldn’t have traded away our talent so freely if we were that thin in the ranks, particularly knowing that both Smoltz and Hampton were getting up in years and Thompson has never made anyone’s list of hot pitchers.

This year’s blame has to fall squarely on management’s shoulders and management should really step back and take a hard look at just who is evaluating the talent they are acquiring and the talent they are shipping away because our eye for talent has suddenly gotten skewed.

By Napolean Dynamite

August 8, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Heck No they won’t make the post season!! GAWSH!!

By Rodger

August 8, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Jimmy, we need a new chorus… Like, lets get “wasted away at Turnerfieldville” Or “Skip & Pete’s BBQ in Hell”

By Moe

August 8, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

I was in Reno last week and the odds of the Braves making the playoffs translated to about 10 to 12%.

It had to have gone down a bit since then.

By Chica

August 8, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

I really, really hope Hampton can return to form next season. We need at least two reliable starters on the club.

fingers crossed

By 22oz

August 8, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

Nice job quoting ghostbusters.

By Chris

August 8, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

One of the worst parts of this fiasco of a season was listening to Braves management go on and on before the season about their confidence in Jorge Sosa, Mike Remlinger, and Chris Reitsma. As soon as we didn’t deal Sosa in the offseason, I had a bad feeling in my stomach which has grown into outright sickness. Maqnagement’s arrogance and belief in their own miracle-working abilities is what lead us to this point this year. This is the first season wherein Scheurholz has looked like a real amateur.

By David O'Brien

August 8, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

thank you 22oz. Wondered if anyone would catch that.

ok, off to the park. i’ll be in communicado a bit later.

and yes, i’m of the opinion that Hampton will surprise many next season with about 15 wins. I really believe that, seeing him every day and what kind of condition he’s in, etc.

later

By ncscoots

August 8, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

Mac, enumerate, please, a few of the “dump truck load of potential starting pitchers” traded away? Oh, and where they are starting today? Thanks…

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

The Livan Hernandez oversight (it has to be an oversight, because I find it hard to believe Schuerholz let him go intentionally, right?) is a worthy question, and I’d like to hear a reporter put a mic in front of Shuerholz and ask him to answer it.

Who on our staff was any better than he? Smoltz. That’s it. Smoltz. He’d have been no worse than Hudson, Horacio and the group, that’s for sure.

All I can assume is that Shuerholz is holding onto that $3 million hoping to point it out to ownership so he can spend it on next year’s roster. Ok, so if ya dump a big payroll and go get us a Barry Zito with the $3 million and whatever larger paycheck ya drop, then I’ll be pleased. Otherwise, as a fan, I’d like some answers.

By Lew

August 8, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

Mac-How can their eye for talent suddenly get skewed? Cataracts? Come on. No one in their right mind (or their left mind for that matter) could possibly have anticipated Hudson’s disintegration. Thomson was an excellent #3 pitcher until this crop of insane injuries hit him. He won 14 games for the Braves before his injury. His price tag this year was so low compared to what other pitchers of his numbers was getting, you couldn’t turn down his option. I’m sure from a talent standpoint they could have anticipated injuries to McBride, Foster, Boyer and injury after injury to Horacio. I mean, JS should have KNOWN he would tear his hamstring in his first start and then get wacked with a line drive to his head. THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, Damn it! They should have figured Kelly Johnson’s arm would need surgery. I mean ALL outfielders need Tommy John surgery-any fool can see that one coming. I think I’ve made my point, but I’ll leave you with one more example of the impending dementia of the Braves’ management-Edgar REnteria. Gee, they are so enfeebled, they managed to replace Furcal with an All Star player who they managed to get for what FOUR COLL used to get, while getting the Red Sox to pick up a substantial portion of his salary. Yes, we must look out for this new form of Altzheimer’s that affects the Braves personnel evaluation abilities.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

Jason Schmidt, Zack Miner are two Braves products it’d be nice to have right now, eh?

By Chop Chop

August 8, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

Ron Roberts,

The Braves probably didn’t want to pay Livan next year. Believe me, I agree that Livan would be the second-best starter for the Braves, but the Braves have got to be thinking about ‘07 now. Schuerholz wouldn’t admit that, but he is.

I think Schuerholz really expected this team to do more in the second half and that the Betemit-Baez/Aybar deal was supposed to be the final piece that would lead to a tide of winning. Since that hasn’t happened (although Giles seems to like it), this team is done. Stick a fork in ‘em and focus on next year. There’s nothing wrong with admitting defeat…just as long as the guys fight ‘til the end. Losing when you’re giving your best effort is acceptable. Laying down and dying isn’t.

By Lew

August 8, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Jason Schmidt is getting older and has had injury problems. Miner has potential, but you must remember he hasn’t be “LIGHTS out” as someone said and he hasbeen playing on the team with baseball’s best record-an awesome hitting team. This tends to mask deficiencies in young pitchers. As to others we let go. Marquis has been inconsistent, even with a kick butt team like the Cards have had in recent years. Wainright isn’t starting. Millwood’s departure lies at the feet of Maddux. Cappelan, Cruz and Colon haven’t done anything spectacular, either. Where are all of these amazing starters we’ve given up? I don’t see any of them as world beaters. I mean, it’s not like we gave up Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano.

By ballboy

August 8, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

DOB, Please ask Bobby if he has officially pulled the plug on this season. If he has, it would save those of us who are still pulling for this puzzling team a lot of time and energy. I’m referring to Monday night’s fifth inning fiasco, when he let Villareal get pummeled for five runs, and then (oh, the horror) brought him back for the sixth. As Skip Caray said during that fifth-inning meltdown: shouldn’t somebody be warming up in the bullpen? Good question. If every game is a must win, and the pen is restocked, why stick with a clearly ineffective pitcher? Was Bobby concerned that yanking him would shatter his confidence? It’s a little late in the game for that.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Like I said, Chop…I have to assume he’s pocketing that money for a run at a marquee free agent starter.

I certainly hope so. Hudson’s shown he’s nothing to bank on right now… we can be hopeful of Hampton’s return all we want, but it’s a long layoff to come back from, as well, not just an injury… Horacio has looked brilliant and times and miserabl 35% of his games, too… Davies and James are unproven commodities…

There are just too many “we hopes” and not enough “we knows” in that rotation for 2007 as-is.

By Mets Stink

August 8, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

The Livan Hernandez question is a good one. He’s not an ace, but he’s much better than what we have. He’d be our #2 guy right now!

By Ted

August 8, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

I for one am glad it wasn’t Livan. The Braves are operating under an $80M payroll this year and (unfortunately) next year since I can’t see new owners being vested in the team when they only bought it for tax reasons.

As such, while Livan’s $2-3M this season are fine, next year, you can’t have a pitcher with a balky knee and a plus 5 ERA in a pitcher’s park making 10% of your team salary (at least Hudson will only make $6M and doesn’t have the balky knee). So while I agree that the Braves should take chances with a couple of guys through the waiver process (maybe Ortiz or Armas from the Nats), Livan’s contract for next year is a viable reason to let him pass. If the Braves can’t win this year, that sucks, but don’t handicap next year’s team trying to do so.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Zach Miner’s 7-2 4.05 ERA would easily make him our legitimate #2 starter, and while you can’t count on the same record, you would have to presume his ERA might be better in a non-DH league if he were here. Both Atlanta and Detroit play in pitcher-friendly home parks, too.

And Jason Schmidt might not be the sure thing he once was, but he had many good years after Atlanta.

How about Kevin Millwood? He was the AL ERA leader last season for Cleveland; heck in homer-happy Texas he’s still sporting a winning record and 4.63 ERA. I believe that ERA would have him as no worse than our #3 or #2 starter, too, and he was lights-out his last season in Atlanta. He’s also 7-1 with a 3.13 ERA away from Arlington, FYI, so he’s still a quality pitcher.

By supergrass

August 8, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

What in the hell happened?!!! dont know where to begin. Sigh theres no question that in comparison to previous years this years starting rotation was questionable. besides 2 guys, its a collection of unproven guys. then a huge mistake and unfortunately it has had a domino effect on the team is the hiring of roger mcdowell. then season begun the arms starting falling off, injury after injury. coxie has made uncomfortable amount of mismanaging too with this pitching staff, like some of the moves out of the bullpen in special situation. braves pitching, for the most part, Is like watching a train wreck It’s justwrong (except smoltzie). andthere’s being optimistic, then there’s thinking with s**t instead of a brain. the braves community should feel excited about mike hampton’s return next year. he hasnt been spectacular in a long time. mike hampton a savior, c**k tease. how about a revistitation of the john rocker days. lets dangle that out there too. this season has been ugly. playoffs hopes finished, dead. still hope they close of strong

By Bob, journalist

August 8, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

My greatest dissapointment this year just may be the inability of the pitchers, as a collective, to effectively pitch out of trouble … except for one short stretch, it seemed to me that the fear of failure pervaded the staff … always expecting something to go awry … and when it did, disaster followed with alarming regularity.

This and that … (accidently posted at the end of the previous Blog … if you’ve read it, then skip it, it’s not worth rereading)

I think that JD Drew is one of the most gifted players to ever don an Atlanta Braves uniform but even his jaded “entry/non-entry” into the proffessional arena may have foretold his attitude … seemed like when things didn’t go his way, he just took his ball and went home.

Lew, your “lost contact” comment was in jest but I’ve wondered on more than one occassion if perhaps more might be done in treating his depth perception problem … a set of contacts obviously helped but that’s only scratching the surface and may not be enough … on the other hand, scratched contacts may be worse than none at all.

Can’t say that I agree with the notion that if you can hit, “it really doesn’t matter if you make some errors” … it matters.

Amen, Reasonable Voice!

Krath, what old saying is “if you can’t says something bad about someone … just don’t say anything” paraphrasing?

By ted turner

August 8, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

add that to the fact that livan’s fastball is clocking in right at 89-90 mph. so he can pitch he just cant pitch good. how desperate are the mets AND they have loads of money and they werent even talking to the nationals about acquiring livan before the deadline.

does anyone know how much he is making next year? im thinking the 8-10 million range?

By krath

August 8, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

DOB, you echoed my thoughts exactly when I learned yesterday that Livan Hernandez had gone to the Diamondbacks. He may not be the starter that some teams might want to put them over the top for the playoffs, but he would be much more serviceable than any starter we have other than Smoltz! I also realized we had some money left and thought we could cover his salary easily the rest of the way AND I was shocked that no one with a worse record than Arizona claimed him!

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

I would assume that the Braves didn’t want to commit $7 mil to Hernandez for next year. Maybe they haven’t given up on our pitching - for next year - yet. Hernandez has had some nice years, but his era this year… 5.24… is just what we don’t need next year. That $7 mil would kill our chances to sign a closer.

By Lew

August 8, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

Ron-Even if we had kept Schmidt, originally, by now he would have left for free agency. As far as Millwood, that was entirely Maddux fault for burning the Braves on arbitration. Also, by now Millwood would have left for free agency, too. Also we got Neagle for Schmidt, who almost and should have won a Cy Young with Atlanta. My point is this. Everyone is looking for the panacea to this past Braves’ season. It doesn’t exist. It is doubtful we would have the staff you think we would even if these pitchers stayed at the time of their departures.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

Also, AZ did give up 2 AA pitchers for Hernandez. If young pitching was what the Nats wanted, we ain’t got much to give that I’m aware of - certainly not much to spare.

By Voice of Reason

August 8, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

I don’t think any reasonable Braves fan who remembers the screwin’ we got from a fat Livan Hernandez, a fatter Eric Gregg, and an even fatter strike zone could ever bear to see him don the Tomahawk. I know I couldn’t…

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Pitching and defense are what made the Braves successful early on in their title runs, and this franchise has gotten away from it.

We traded Millwood for a catcher… a catcher? To me, a move like that doesn’t define “an emphasis on strong pitching.”

Patching together a ramshackle bullpen with spare parts and young kids with no experience isn’t “an emphasis on pitching,” either.

I usually have praise for Shuerholz and his moves, but you asked what quality starters folks are alluding to, and well, we’ve listed some. You can have “yeah, but” replies with regards to the skills of any player…. (“yeah, but Barry Bonds is bad for clubhouse chemistry…“… but Miner, Schmidt, Millwood are sound examples.

By shaun

August 8, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

Lets just go ahead and tell the truth. Yes the Braves had a pathetic bull—— bullpen going into this season, and yes our starters have struggled, either themselves, or with run support. But when it all comes down to it, Top Managements decisions are at the core of all the braves problems. First they (JS & crew)get rid of the real Wizard of OZ of ATL, Leo Mazzone. THey make no attempt in the offseason to acquire an MR oand a closer. Then they wait until its almost too late to acquire a closer. They forgot that M. Giles wasn’t a lead off hitter. They traded away the best piece of raw talent to come throught the Braves organization in years, and make no moves to trade the right players to acquire one more legitimate offensive weapon.

So stop blaming the players. Its the way the management uses the players that has caused this disastrous, horrific season.

I still love the Braves though.

Signing off for a while……

www.everythingturnerfield.com

By Amber

August 8, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

I seem to remember making the comment months ago that the Braves would need another solid starter… but I guess because my fantasy team sucks no one will listen to me. :-P

By shaun

August 8, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Lets just go ahead and tell the truth. Yes the Braves had a pathetic bull—— bullpen going into this season, and yes our starters have struggled, either themselves, or with run support. But when it all comes down to it, Top Managements decisions are at the core of all the braves problems. First they (JS & crew)get rid of the real Wizard of OZ of ATL, Leo Mazzone. THey make no attempt in the offseason to acquire an MR oand a closer. Then they wait until its almost too late to acquire a closer. They forgot that M. Giles wasn’t a lead off hitter. They traded away the best piece of raw talent to come throught the Braves organization in years, and make no moves to trade the right players to acquire one more legitimate offensive weapon.

So stop blaming the players. Its the way the management uses the players that has caused this disastrous, horrific season.

I still love the Braves though.

Signing off for a while……

www.everythingturnerfield.com

By Brent

August 8, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

I’m glad DOB mentioned Hamptons.
I heard the Braves announcers mention that he is looking great in workouts.

Hampton has been solid, especially in the 2nd half with the Braves. Plus, we have seen many pitchers through the years come back strong from this type of surgery. I anticipate that Mike will, as well.

Don’t forget, Hampton probably could’ve been ready for September, but the decision was made not to rush him (a wise decision, IMO).

No reason not to expect Mike to be strong by next spring.

By krath

August 8, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

I don’t really want to do a “Joey Devine” to any of our young pitchers in the minors, but maybe there are some young starters that would not normally be at a stage of development where the Braves would bring them up that should be considered for a “look see.” Some organizations have been surprised when they have had to promote from a lower level than they normally do. The Braves are in effect out of it, so the pressure that Devine was thrust into wouldn’t or shouldn’t be there. I don’t think if a kid has the mental makeup to be an effective major league pitcher that there is much risk to his psyche if he is brought up early EVEN if he gets roughed up a little. Who knows, there may be a young gun somewhere in the organization who would thrive given the challenge.

Watching what the Braves may do to try and put a more effective team on the field NEXT SEASON is what can excite me when watching the Braves the rest of this season.

Bob… I posted an answer to your question on the other blog where you originally posted it. I also answered a couple of other bloggers over there.

By Rasputin

August 8, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

Looking ahead to 2007 the Braves are betting on a 40-year old John Smoltz, rookie Chuck James, Mike Hampton who hasn’t pitched in over a year, Tim Hudson who has steadily regressed since leaving Oakland, and Kyle Davies who is still an unknown.

Not too comforting !

Baez & Wickman should be priority # 1, though I don’t see them both being signed.

By Mets Stink

August 8, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Hampton will be a great addition next year, IF he stays healthy.

By shawn

August 8, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

So DOB what can be done to strengthen the starting rotation for next year. Surely we don’t planning on bringing Hampton back and think that is all that needs to be done. And as for Davies…..#5 starter next year at best. If we count on him to be a 2,3,or even 4 we are asking for it. James and Ramirez have looked decent BUT is decent pitchers what we are looking for? Who will be available as starters next year and will the Braves pursue any?

By Voice of Reason

August 8, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

Krath - I completely understand what you’re saying in regard to BC’s words of choice when speaking to the media. Of course it’s possible to be a bit more realistic without, as you say, throwing anyone under the bus. Tha being said, bC has never done anything any differently, whether things were going well or not. That, I believe, is one of his strengths - complete consistency. You always know what to expect from him. You will notice, however, he’ll speak of sweet aroma on a dungheap, yet he never speaks very highly of himself… At the risk of sounding like a BC apologist, he will be in the HOF as a manager. He’s made his share of mistakes, but his handling of players both in the media and in the clubhouse has been a strength.

By 2 homo boys

August 8, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

DOB,You are Right on about the Starters,My boyfriend and I have been Braves fans since they moved from Milwaukee to Atlanta,We have seen some horrible starters,Like in the late 60’s and 70’s when the Braves had nothing in their starting rotation except Phil Niekro,this years starters except John smoltz,are worse than any starters We have ever seen.Hudson is a major disappoitment and Ho Ram has been down right embarrising,he has turned out to be one of the worse starters,JT has been awful,Chuck James has been fair,he hasn’t been anything to depend on,so after Smoltz we got no dependable starters. John S got to do something for next year,we say trade Hudson because we are gonna have six starters next year when everyone comes back,Next year we will have Smoltz,Hudson,Davies,Ho Ram,Hampton and Chuck James,so we got to get rid of a couple of these so call unreliable starters and we need to start with Hudson and Ho Ram,The money we save with them we could use to sign Zito,Could you imagine a starting rotation of Smoltz,Zito, Hampton,Davies and James.That would be pretty good rotation. The Braves have a lot of overhauling to do in the offseason,it starts with getting rid of John S and Bobby C and bringing in Frank Wren as the new GM and a new manager.Cox has been around too long,time for new starters and new management. The Braves really need to just kiss this season goodbye and look forward to next year and also the Braves got to concentrate on signing Baez and Wickman for next year,with them and the above starters we already mentioned we would have a very good pitching staff.Then we need to upgrade the non pitchers,we got Aybar who can be our leadoff hitter for next year and can play second full time and allow us to trade Giles and free up more salary,as for left field we say leave that to Thorman and Diaz,they have done a pretty good job there.Also we need a manager who is not afraid to play small ball,with the speed Aybar has and him getting on we should bat Renteria behind him next year and have Aybar running more,this breaks up the double play and puts a runner in scoring position.So there is much work to do to the Braves for next season,hope liberty Media will come in and wake up and realize it is time to Can John S and Bobby and bring in new blood,like Frank Wren and TP. If The Braves don’t can John S and Bobby C for next year,it is time for John S to stop farting around and do something major to improve this team.if he has to trade Salty then he needs to do it,especially if Dontrelle Willis is available or packagea deal with Hudson and Salty to get someone that is a dependabble starter, and who will win games for us.We got to bring back Baez and Wickman for next year other wise we are screwed.

By kevin

August 8, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

Can I start? I bet I can give four “solid” innnings of work…

By Coop

August 8, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

DOB, everyone here would agree that the Braves are in dire straits right now, so much so that every game is a “must win”.

With that being the case, why in the hell did Bobby leave in Villareal long enough to give up 5 runs?! When he came into the game for Ramirez it was 2 to 1!! We still had a chance to win and it was clear early on that Villareal didn’t have good stuff.

This Bobby Cox philosophy of being loyal to a player’s pysche before the good of the team crap got old over a decade ago. Tell me honestly DOB, would he still be the manager in Boston or New York or any other major market team with this style of management and record of “success”?

And before you answer, remember Grady Little got fired for “one” bonehead decision - keeping Pedro in too long in the ALCS. Bobby has made similiar moves or worse for 14 years now.

By Jack

August 8, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

This reminds me of the good-old-days (tongue-in-cheek)when we had the likes of Preston Hanna, Rick Camp, etc, etc, in our rotation. I love the Braves, but this team ain’t good enough to be in the playoffs. I’m sitting here thinking how dour the situation is for next year. We don’t have a closer. Wickman is going to retire. Baez is a free agent and is really better suited for the 8th inning. I’m not even sure Hudson rates as a 5th starter. We don’t have any candidates in the minors for starters. All our young talent is 2or 3 years away. So, we start out next year with one good pitcher, Smoltz, who’s a year older. To me, there has been way too much hype about Davies and James and Ramirez has proven he is inconsistent at best. John Thompson, anyone? Then I look at the position players. We don’t have a leadoff man or speed at the top of the order. We have a 3rd baseman that can’t stay healthy. Chipper’s one of the best when healthy, but does anyone think he’s going to stay healthy during the year? How can we be a championship club without his bat in the lineup everyday? We also have too many free swingers in the batting order. We need one more guy like Edgar in the lineup. Sorry to be negative, but the Mets have tons of money to spend, and the makeup of our ballclub sucks for next year. I’ve already got my remote warmed up to catch the Braves score between commercials during the Falcons games this year.

By Lew

August 8, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

Ron-You’re missing my point. No one had any complaints (except lack of WS titles) until this year. No one complained about our pitching staff until this year (with the possible exception of last year’s pen). Now you’re saying that if we still had Millwood, Schmidt and Miner, we wouldn’t be where we are today. BUT (yes, I know you don’t want to hear but, BUT) realistically, if we had kept Scmidt and Millwood at the time of their departures, the wouldn’t be here now anyway. They would already have left to free agency. Millwood was due $10 mil when we traded him for an All Star catrcher. He was only arbitration eligible. If he had stayed until free agency was available to him, we would not have re-signed him because of his price tag. So that leaves you with Miner. Now answer this truthfully-Would Miner have made enough of a difference that we would be that much closer to the playoffs than we are without him. Sorry, the injuries have been too rampant this year and he would not have been enough. As far as getting rid of all of our young pitchers (which we really haven’t done), what would everybody’s reaction have been if JS didn’t try to continue the division run? I think we know the answer to that one.

By Mothball

August 8, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

The Betemit trade has Brett Butler written all over it. Then, we’ll let Baez sail off into the night leaving us with a scrub utility infielder to keep Orr company. Well done!

Until this team finds a way to redistribute its salaries, they are not going to compete. A handle full of folks (Half of whom aren’t even playing due to injury) sucking down half of the payroll does not a winner make.

How did we forget are own recipe for success in the 90’s? Dominate pitching! Well, let’s forget about Wohlers.

Hopefully, we will have an eventful, profitable off-season. The season itself has been a joke.

By Kip Dynamite

August 8, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

Miner wouldnt be enough? Like anybody can know that Lew.

By Lew

August 8, 2006 05:16 PM | Link to this

Kip- If Miner was here with the record that he has in Detroit, with the best team in baseball (7-2 with a 4 something ERA) and used him to replace Sosa, who had the worst record with 2 wins, we would now have 5 more wins than we do. It would not have been enough. Do the math. We still wouldn’t be at .500.

By Greg in TN

August 8, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB, great work as always.

I had a feeling we would be in trouble in the rotation from the 3rd on with Hampton on the shelf. Smoltzie is the gold standard, there’s no argument there. I felt he has been the ace all along, even with some anointing Hudson as the new ace. He’s struggled this year from the get go. Horacio has pitched very well at times and not so well at times. Not having Davies and Thomson has hurt. There are times when the bullpen has dropped the ball, but others when the rotation has put the bullpen in horrible positions, so I don’t think the rotation can get away scott free by any means.

I love the fact that we have Baez and Wickman, I just hate that we had to go through all of this to finally be able to get them. I don’t know who to blame for not being able to get them. I think there’s several things that just came to a head this year: injuries, past trades diluting the pitching in the minors, payroll constraints and underperformance.

By Michael

August 8, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

Didn’t the Millwood trade become necessary because Maddux accepted arbitration, thus costing the Braves too much money? Seems like I remember the Braves not expecting Maddux to accept,they were just making sure they got some compensation for him. When you consider they HAD to trade someone,getting what turned out to be an All-Star catcher wasn’t so bad.

By Greg in TN

August 8, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

Oops, I had a goof in that last paragraph. I meant to say I don’t know who to blame for not being able to get them in the offseason.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

And Lew,

You’re missing my point, as well… you asked what quality starting pitching the Braves have let go, and for whatever reasons and through whatever means, I’ve listed some quality arms they’ve let slip over the years.

Also, when you answered Kip… if you add five wins to 51, then subtract 5 losses from 60, my math has us 56-55. That’s voer .500, my friend…

… and in the thick of a wild card chase.

By Lew

August 8, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

Michael-You are absolutely correct. Mothball-I think comparing Betemit, a part-time player for parts of 2 seasons to Brett Butler is way premature. You can’t possibly see 10 or 12 years into the future. Let’s get a grip here. One thing that everyone here has failed to note about our dominant pitching during the streak-We had what should well be three HOF pitchers on the same staff for over ten years. No one has ever had this many quality pitchers on their staff for this length of time. Expecting that to happen again in the era of free agency is the most unrealistic expectation any of us could have. It will probably never happen again.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Actually it was NCroots that asked… I think you just picked up his torch from there.

By paluka

August 8, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

What has happened to Anthony Lerew? If he is healthy why isn’t he called up and placed into the rotation for the rest of the season.

By Dissatisfiled

August 8, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

Did I hear Bobby Cox right last night when he said that Horacio looked better than ever before this injury? Does Ho not have an ERA of over 6 over his last 3-4 starts? You know, it’s getting old & tiring listening to the Bobby blather. This team doesn’t even have a # 3 or # 2 starter, let alone a #1. And how can anyone be counting on a pitcher like Mike Hampton, after coming off of major arm surgery, to make a significant contribution to the rotation next year? What justifies that thinking? He’s, at best, been a .500 pitcher since he left the Mets; he had 1 good year with the Braves (mostly a good 2nd half), but that was when Leo was here.

Don’t know about you, but somebody better do a thorough evaluation in the off-season of Roger McDowell being a competent MLB pitching coach.

By Tony Almeida

August 8, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

We wouldnt be in this situation at all if the moron Schuerholtz had fixed the bullpen before at the beginning of the season instead of the middle.

By LeTwan Anthony

August 8, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

“Glad I could bring a ray of sunshine to your day. Pass the pie.” _DOB

LeTwan thinks Mama needs to get busy in the kitchen. This is going to take a lot of pie!

By Lew

August 8, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

Well whoopity do da. We would be one game over .500. Gee wouldn’t that make everyone warm and fuzzy? We would still be somewhere close to 10 games behind the Mets and would still have lost that series to them. Miner is a kid and you DON”T KNOW how he would have done. You can take all of your would haves and could haves and you will still end up where we are now. So what if we hadn’t left Millwood and Schmidt go at the time. THEY WOULDN’T BE HERE NOW, so how does that support your theory. For crying out loud, Ron, SChmidt has been gone for damn near a decade. He’s been hurt for at least 2 years. So Millwood won the ERA crown last year. Big deal. Do you think he will ever do it again? My God, for over ten years we had three #1 starters on our staff. Not even the Yankees, with a good bit of all the money in the world, can’t claim that, nor duplicate it. It may never happen again. Welcome to the world of being a fan of a normal baseball team. We had our party and nobody appreciated it.

By Mothball

August 8, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

Hard to argue your logic, Lew.

I just believe this team has far too many holes in the rotation and bullpen (Not to mention a position or two combined with a pitiful bench) to be trading young talent for a stretch run that will not materialize. Signing Baez would add some logic, but everyone knows that he will not be in a Braves uniform next year.

Should’ve sold if that was even possible.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

Hey lew… .

Chill out, dude. It’s a discussion, not a freaking sword fight. Geez.

By TennesseePaul

August 8, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

So what about the twinkie? Nice post DOB.

I don’t get this. Aybar is not a scrub utility infielder. He’s 23. Three years younger than Betemit and ahead of where Betemit was 3 years ago. Plus he’s fast. Plus, we had no spot for Betemit to play. Oh wait… we’re supposed to trade all the good players we have for unproven minor leaguers so Betemit can get an everyday shot. Then use the money we save, and sign real good veterans to fill in. Veterans of the caliber that we traded off to begin with. Forgot about that.

Give the kid a chance. He’ll show he can play. Like he did last year with the Dodgers when he hit over .300 while called up to the show. As to why didn’t the Dodgers want him… Maybe it’s because he isn’t a short stop. Seems all they really want these days is Short stops. Their entire infield is made of short stops (Betemit, Furcal, Lugo, Nomar) Aybar doesn’t fit into that fold. And Aybar is better than Orr. Much better than Orr.

By Dog the Bounty Hunter

August 8, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

Lew…….Take step back……breathe in and breathe out…..

It’s just a blog, don’t give yourself an ulcer, Brah.

By paluka

August 8, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

Question to all out there: What kind of moves can the Braves make to re-establish themselves as a good pitching staff? Who can can be aquired that does not make a ton of money but can still go at leat 6-7 innings each time out?

By Lew

August 8, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

Ron-You’re right, it’s dinner time. Didn’t mean to sound off in a negative fashion and I realize you’re a rational fan. Much more so than others. I just think we all get carried away, and sometimes the discussion goes to places that won’t make a bit of difference in the state of Braves’ affairs. What I want to know is what do we do to change it for next year. Not what it would have been like with ex players. I’m chilled. See y’all later.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

Oh, and that “whoopity do da” 56-55 record would have a team one-half game out of the wild card spot.

And how can you say that not letting Millwood or Schmidt go early on would’ve meant we wouldn’t have them now, either? That’s a presumption, not a fact. I’m just looking back, in hindsight, and thinking “It sure would be nice to have them here, now.”

…same goes for Zach Miner. But then, he’s no Jason Sheill, is he?

By Voice of Reason

August 8, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

Betemit was traded at what was possibly the peak of his trade value. It has been repeated here and other places that he was not in the plans for 2B (please, don’t make me repeat the reasons why) and is blocked at SS and 3B. You can no more judge WillyB’s season since the trade as you can WillyA’s, who is 3 years younger. And why does everyone so easily assume that Baez is just a rental? Maybe he is, but we don’t know that now.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

Let’s eat, Lew. Hell, screw dinner, I need a nap, and yet I get to go to my second job tonight.

:)

By Heath

August 8, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

For all these pathetic loses this year, I have cursed (as I do any time they lose) and then calmly sat back and said “they’ll turn it on starting tomorrow….tomorrow smoltz is going or, chipper and andruw have faired really well against so-and-s0”….. well, tomorrow keeps coming and the braves just aren’t “turning it on”. More often then not, the pitching has been the short-coming of this team this year, but there have been enough 2-1 3-2 4-2, etc loses that show this lineup has a lot of wholes too. Last night was the last straw for me. I have officially given up on this year. The Phillies GAVE AWAY 2 really good players, the marlins have a payroll smaller than two Braves’ player’s salaries and both look better, deeper into the season. I would like to see this team “re-shaped”, not tooling up for a stretch run this year. It is just not going to happen. Now time to sit back and reflect on all the years that the braves won and appreciate their success. GO BRAVES!

By Joe Black

August 8, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

Horacio Ramirez has a partial tear of his tendon in his left middle finger and will go on the disabled list Wednesday.

The Braves starting lefthanded pitcher will meet with a hand specialist Wednesday to review MRI results.

Braves manager Bobby Cox says there’s a chance Ramirez could miss rest of season.

Lance Cormier is expected to start on Saturday for the Braves.

By Ron Roberts

August 8, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

I actually like Lance Cormier.

..but then he’s no Jason Shiell, either.

Ha Ha

By nathan

August 8, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

I couldn’t have said it better myself DOB.

I agree with you 110 percent about the rotation being responsible for the some if not most of the bullpen woes.

That still doesn’t take JS off the hook for not grabbing a Wickman, Baez, Todd Jones or any 2 of the 3, hell should’ve got em’ all!!

It goes both ways. If JS would’ve “fixed” the bullpen in the offseason, then we’d have some more wins. BUT to me the biggest of them all is Hudson. If he was even 2/3 as good as he was 2 or 3 years ago, we’d be in better shape. Not good shape, but better. He’s worthless, I hope they dump him faster than……well, enter whatever cliche’ you’d like, I stopped caring about 2 weeks ago. I’m looking forward to 3 things in the near and distant future!

1) Still coming on these blogs and “arguing” with everybody…..it’s just fun to ruffle the feathers. LOL

2) Football season is right around the corner. It’s been about 15 years since I was excited about football before October!

3) Spring Training is only about 193 days away. I CAN’T WAIT!!!

L8R

By nathan

August 8, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

BTW, DOB

I’m with you on Hampton. Though I haven’t seen him on a daily basis like you have (I trust your opinion - you seem to be a pretty straight shooter!)

I expect big things from him. He knows he hasn’t been worth the money the Rockies gave him. I think he’ll be out to prove he’s back. Hell, he can’t be any worse than what we’ve got, can he?

By Joe Black

August 8, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Right now, anyone that can pitch needs to be called up.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Miner was a fair-to-middling AA pitcher who had never lived up to expectations when we traded him. He blossomed for Detroit… good for him, good for them. How many times have the Braves been on the opposite side of that equation? And, we probably wouldn’t have won the division last year had we not dealt for Farnsworth.

By Uncle Rico

August 8, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

I’m gonna try out for the Braves next Spring. How much you wanna bet I can hit ball over them mountains?

By Dave nockahomer

August 8, 2006 06:05 PM | Link to this

As you said, DOB, worst record for starters since before the 14 season divisional titles.

Can anybody connect the dots? ….. …….

with all these injuries, the most I can recall in years……. I will connect the dots!

NO LEO………

geessshhhhhh…Roger tries, I am sure, but when Leo was in charge there were very few injuries and some much better ERA’s.

No, he ain’t doin all that good RIGHT NOW in Baltimore! But give him time!

I sure miss Leo!!!!

He da man!

By krath

August 8, 2006 06:05 PM | Link to this

Voice of Reason…. you are indeed that. Yes Cox will be in the HOF. Yes dealing with the media and his players have been a strength.

I shouldn’t expect anything else from Cox other than what he’s always given the media. I read Cox quotes in columns and articles where they are embeded but can honestly say I never read anything where the headline mentions “according to BC or…BC says”…simply because I don’t find his observations candid or insightful. He overstates the obvious and over-plays the mediocre in his teams. For example the headline could say, “Bobby Likes What He Sees In Aybar,” well I don’t have to read that. The headline says it and Bobby will repeat something he’s said a million times to flatter some mediocre player.

I’ve read it, don’t have to read it again.

On the other hand, I don’t want to read some wild ramblings from Ozzie Guillen either.

Guess I’m just hard to please lol

By David O'Brien

August 8, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

Cormier almost certainly will start Saturday, Bobby indicated. But as for next Tuesday, when I asked him he’s literally going through the minor league stats, trying to figure out who’s an option.

Lerew is down at Double-A after stinking it up at Richmond. But he’s pitched well at Double-A, so he could be an option for next week _ they’re that desperate, enough that they might bring a guy up from Double-A who’d been demoted from Triple-A.

But it sounds like Kevin Barry is the most likely candidate. He’s been starting again since he returned to Richmond, and for the year has a 3.30 ERA in 18 games (15 starts) in Triple-A (the 4-5 record isn’t too important, because that team is awful).

Lerew, by the way, is 4-2 with a 2.03 ERA in nine games (eight starts) at Double-A Mississip, after going 1-4 with a _ gulp _ 9.38 ERA in 12 games (11 starts) at Richmond, where he gave up 70 hits and 29 walks in 49 innings. Yes, 70 and 29.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this

The only thing I “blame” JS for this year is the failure to sign a reliever in the offseason.

It was reasonable to expect Giles to do an adequate job as leadoff; had he matched his career production, that would have been more than enough. Didn’t work out.

It was reasonable to think Smoltz and Hudson would be solid at the top 2 starter positions. didn’t work out.

It was reasonable to think that between Davies, Sosa, Thomson, Ramirez, and James, we’d have 3 other serviceable starters. Didn’t work out.

Even in the pen, we expected Devine, Reitsma, Boyer to be contributors if not stars. Didn’t work out.

As to closer, BJ Ryan was the big prize, but we couldn’t afford him. Likewise with Wagner. Wickman would’ve been a good signing. Baez was a possibility; the Dodgers won that sweepstakes, and were not pleased with his production. Todd Jones said he wanted to come here with a 2 year deal; he’s got a lot of saves, but a high e.r.a. Who knows if he’d have been so lucky here?

It’s just been a sorry year. I for one am okay with us going into next year with the pitching we have, except for one proven late-inning guy. This is how the Braves can compete, and our young arms have a chance to be very good.

7 of our starting 8 position players are ‘home grown.’ As a fan, I’d like us to try to duplicate that feat with our pitching staff, so that we can compete for championships for years to come, rather than buying aging pitchers (like L. Hernandez - ouch!) to fill gaps and eat up payroll.

By Tony Almeida

August 8, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Bring up JOEY DEVINE…YEAAAAAHHHHHHH

By nathan

August 8, 2006 06:15 PM | Link to this

MBATL

As I posted about the time that the Todd Jones “wanted to come to Atlanta” story was on this site, most of his runs that lead to his high ERA were in 2 or 3 outings. Kinda like when Smoltz was the closer and he got hammered in his first outing of the year. It took FOREVER for that ERA to come down. Saves are Saves!

Anyhow, go to ESPN’s website and look up the stats if you don’t believe me, but I know you will :)

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 06:15 PM | Link to this

All this lamenting about players now gone is useless. Especially the minor leaguers. Who was to know that Miner would pitch well. Or Capellan. Or Wainwright. That is why they are called prospects. It could work out or it could not. In Marquis’ case it was solely because of Leo. He hated Leo and I think the feeling was mutual.

To those who say our starting pitching is less than reliable for next year I say you are right. Look this team needs bullpen help, starting pitching and a leadoff hitter with speed. The money isn’t going to be there in free agency to get all three. The team will be relieved of Reitsma (hopefully), Jordan, Pratt,Thomson and Remlnger’s contracts as well as getting an extra 3 mil from Smoltz’s option. But, you have to take into account the 8 mil from Hampton’s contract and between LaRoche and Giles they will be getting about 2.5 mil combined through arbitration. So, when you break that down, in the end probably only 3 mil or so will be freed up to go with the 6 mil we had this year (part of which has been spent on Baez and Wickman). No way can both be retained so I’m guessing that Baez will be the guy. Baez will probably cost about 6 mil unless someone else comes along and offers a crap load more. So, now you are talking about an extra 2 mil. No team is going to sign an impact decent leadoff hitter or starting pitcher or bullpen help for that kind of money. So, where’s the money going to come from. The only contracts that could be restructured are Hampton’s and Renteria’s and I doubt that will happen. Can’t really expect Chipper to restructure his more than it has been. Andruw is definitely out of the question.

The only real solution is to obtain the three things this team needs through trades. It would be nice to get it all in one trade but that is not realistic. The reality of the situation is that some guys have to be moved. IMO the only tradeable guys on the team with value are LaRoche, Giles, Davies, Horacio, Salty, Bryan Pena, and possibly Thorman and Langerhans. The question is can any of those guys bring what is truly needed? I think LaRoche, Giles, Horacio, and either Salty or B. Pena can if packaged right.

Those who say an 80 mil payroll should be good enough to field a playoff team is right. But, unfortunately, in the Braves’ case it is not enough money. They have big contracts eating up a good portion of the payroll, but you have to remember that when all of those contracts were signed or taken on that the Braves had a payroll comparable with the Mets, Yanks, Red Sox, Angels, and Dodgers.

Time-Warner screwed the team by pulling the carpet right from underneath JS and making him reduce payroll after these deals had already been made. I hope I’m wrong, but there is a chance that this team could be very mediocre for the next two years until some payroll relief will come.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

Nathan, I’ll take your word for it… like I said, I do think JS made a mistake in not signing a closer; I thought it then (like most fans did) and I think it now.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 06:24 PM | Link to this

btw, for those complaining about letting Schmidt go: in his last season with ATL, his era was 6.75. SIX SEVENTY FIVE. So, if you wanted to keep him, I sure don’t know why you’re down on HoRam, James, etc.

And in the 3 years AFTER we traded him, his era was 4.06, 5.70, and 4.60. In fact, it was about 7 years after we traded him before he became a ‘premier’ starter.

By Humpback Liner

August 8, 2006 06:28 PM | Link to this

Braves pitching will get worse before it gets better and if you think Hampton is going to be make a big differance when he comes back you’re living in a fantasy world.

By Tomahawkin

August 8, 2006 06:29 PM | Link to this

Jason Schmidt, Had 3 steller seasons in 01-03, he is a shell of his former self, We don’t need ham and are not going to get him…

Hell who knew that Schmidt would be a decent starter…I bet at the time myself and A-Lot of you guys who have followed the Braves before 2000, probably thought he be another Brad Woodall, Terrell Wade, or better yet David Nied

By Lew

August 8, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

RobertJIB-I’m not sos ure we can’t get all we want. The dead wood leaving, Sosa et al, should clear up about $14 million, give or take a major league minimum. If we can trad Giles (we should have a better chance at return given his recent resurgence), that will free up what could be $5mil. If, and I know it’s a big if, we can dump Hudson for a can of ethyl chloride to someone willing to take on his salary, that would free up another $6million. That gives us about $25 million to re-sign Baez and Wickman, if we can talk him into not retiring and a decent pitcher and a right handed bat.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

Ron, letting go of Schmidt and Millwood does seem like big mistakes. But, be honest would either one of those guys still be here? They both would have been long gone due to free agency. That’s a fact. I mean look thing logically. If JS knew that Time-Warner was going to slash payroll would he have made the deals he did? Probably not. Only Andruw and Chipper’s deals would have been done. The fact is neither Hudson nor Hampton would be a Brave right now and we would have Wainwright, Capellan, and Juan Cruz.

Its just like sitting here lamenting about Jermaine Dye is just silly. Dye was a decent player here but nothing like he is now. You can look all around the majors and see guys who are successful that other teams gave up on and traded in deals. That is how we got Smoltz. I’m sure the Red Sox still kick themselves for trading Jeff Bagwell. But, at the time it was a good deal. The Mets could really use Kazmir right now, but at the time it was a good deal.

Its just like the Betemit deal. People, look at this objectively. It only seems like Wilson is getting a big hit every game because that is what you want to see. The reality of the situation is that he is hitting just a touch better than Aybar. And to be honest he will probably find himself next year in the same role he was in at Atlanta. If the Dodgers sign Lugo you can almost guarantee that Kent will be the 2B, Lugo the SS, and Furcal will move to 3B. So, people, calm down. Lets say we get back into this race somehow. Ask yourself this question. Who would be more important on the last game of the year against the Astros and the team has to win to earn a wild card berth? Having a 5-4 lead going into the 8th inning with Betemit on the bench or being able to make the call to the pen and bringing in Baez. Do any of you really trust Ray, Paronto, or Yates to nail it down and set it up for Wickman. Really. Stop it! Just stop it!

The trade may turn out to be a horrible one. But, at the time it was the best most available move for the team to position it with a chance to win. Pure and simple!

By LeTwan Anthony

August 8, 2006 06:35 PM | Link to this

LeTwan and Mama were talking baseball and Mama had two concerns: If the Braves trade the players most bloggers want to get rid of they will not receive much in return. If the Braves trade the players most teams would want to acquire the Braves will have holes in the lineup and no one to fill those holes. If the Braves continue to dispose of talented young players for aging has-been players the trend will catch up (has already). Burrows and Blackford for Hollandsworth is an example.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 06:38 PM | Link to this

Lew, that is a big if though.

In fairness to JS, there were no available closers. They all demanded too much money except for Todd Jones who wanted an extra guaranteed year on his contract. Can you really blame the front office for being leary of giving a 36 or 37 year old closer a 3 year deal instead of 2 year deal. C’mon. Hindsight is always 20/20 but as good as Jones is doing this year, there is no assurance he will repeat the performance next year. Just like Wickman. That is why I say Baez is probably who they will try to retain first.

By Dave

August 8, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this

RIP

By Louis Vales

August 8, 2006 06:41 PM | Link to this

You guys are worse than Red Sox nation—-One World Series Championship in 49 years counting time in Milwaukee from 1958 and you guys cry and wail as if you’re close. Stop It!!!!! You are the Atlanta Braves who define “greatness” by divisional titles-a weak division at that—and those silly banners in left field with ONE!!!!!!!!!!!! Championship to show for it. You have won as many World Championships in the time since move in 66 as the Arizona Diamondbacks. You are bridesmaids with silly Andruw Jones smiles on your faces-Stop It!! Know your place in the pecking order and the pain will alleviate. Toronto, Cincinnati, Minnesota, Pittsburgh all parlayed several chance into World Series Titles you utilized 14 chances to win ONE!!!!more than the Marietta School For Wayward Boys!! Go and chop something. You’re laughable!!

By ncscoots

August 8, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

Ron, you’re right, it was I who asked Mac to name some starting pitchers traded away. I guess my bone-picking there was the implication that we had traded away MANY such potential star starters. Don’t believe that quite hits the mark. Even with Schmidt, it was three years or so (I think) with Pittsburgh before he really found his groove. Zach Miner? Props to him, he’s having a great year, and I’ll bet he’s enjoying the heck out of it. But I don’t remember too many people up in arms because he was included in that deal, do you? Man, projecting pitching success is such a crapshoot, it’s a wonder any pitching prospect comes up with the team that signed him. Pulsipher/Isringhausen/a third guy I can’t even remember were supposed to be the next great triumvirate for the Mets a few years ago; Wood and Prior were going to win 50 games a year for the Cubs; and who even remembers that Oliver Perez was nearly unhittable just a couple of years ago? You throw as many pitching prospects as you can at the wall, and you hope one sticks. But assuming a young pitcher, even a stud like Kazmir, or Liriano, or anybody else you care to name, is going to go on to many years of consistent success, well, that’s a hope, not a plan.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

LaTwan, I know what is wrong with the team. They are not eating good. Maybe you can get mama to fix the boys up some sweet potatoe pies and some good peach cobbleers.

By mariner

August 8, 2006 06:56 PM | Link to this

RobertJIB, I’d prefer to keep Pena and have him take Pratt’s spot next year. I see Salty as the catcher who should be traded, and who can bring more in return. I agree Horacio is a good trade candidate with Hampton’s return. But, probably not until next July trade deadline. I can’t see him going in the offseason with so many question marks in the rotation.

By ncscoots

August 8, 2006 06:59 PM | Link to this

now we’re talking…that good French cooking version of the famous southtern dish…cobbleer! :-)

By dfree

August 8, 2006 06:59 PM | Link to this

first off, the starting rotation can’t be completley to blame for the staff’s struggles. There was a time earlier in the year when the bullpen continued to blow leads for the starters. This killed the moral of the starters and the rest of the team. I really think if JS would have brought in a guy like Wickman in the offseason, instead in the second half, this team would be above .500 and challenging the Mets. Reistma would have been dependable in the 8th, where is better suited and obviously more comfortable. I really would have liked to see how different our season would have been. For so long the Braves have gone cheap in the bullpen and gotten by, but they always had a closer, or someone developed into the closer, this season, no one could handle the job. It wrecked the starters, especially Hudson, his struggles really began when he tried to go deeper in the game after the bullpen blew some games. As for now, the bullpen, atleast the 8th and 9th inning, looks solid. I think they should give Lerew a chance to start. He’s a young guy who was considered a closer candidate this spring. I know he struggled early, but he seems to have righted himself. He’s a prospect, unlike barry or cormier. If they do good, longterm, the braves don’t really get anything. Lerew could show he has a potential to join davies, and james as a future big 3. need a win tonight and take this series. To think how bad the braves have played, win-loss wise, and we are stil only one game behind where we were after the 7 game streak, IF IF IF they could get hot…. none of those teams ahead of them are that good, but with every loss it seems less likely.GO BRAVES.

By Tonight on TBS

August 8, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

First time on cable.

Little Man (2006)

When baseball manager Bobby (Bernie Mac) finds vertically challenged Marcus (Marlon Wayans) on his doorstep, he believes he has found the small, quick second baseman he has always dreamed of. Meanwhile, Marcus schemes to get with his brother Brian (Keenan Ivory Wayans) and grab a cool 5 million dollars. With Tracy Morgan as Joe Bick.

By Bob, journalist

August 8, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

Thanks for all the laughs, I needed those … and the insights too.

LaTawn, give a special pie to Mama, she deserves one!

Later

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 07:06 PM | Link to this

Hey, 11 days ago the Dodgers were 7 games back and trailing 9 teams… now they’re tied for the WC lead.

All we need to do is rip off a quick 9 of 10 … probably gonna have to hit the ball hard to do so, I would guess. But seriously, no reason to give up.

scoots, I think we talked about this a while back… I still say that Bobby Jones was the 3rd member of that Mets trifecta! But I know you don’t think so… I’m kinda like you; I sure remember it, but am not 100% sure who the 3rd guy was.

Anyway, good post. Add to that, regarding Schmidt, that when we traded him in ‘96, we had Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Avery, and had Millwood at AAA. Oh, and picked up Neagle in the deal. Oh, the good ol’ days…

By ronald

August 8, 2006 07:12 PM | Link to this

The really bad thing about the injuries to the pitching staff is that it will cause management to give Roger McDowell another year in Atlanta. He is no pitching coach. Don’t listen to the guys on the radio spouting the company line. Check it out for yourself. Check out the team era of the teams he coached in the minor leagues. He is absolutely awful as a pitching coach and needs to go. We may as well accept the fact that we are not going to post-season play. We wouldn’t have even if Ramirez had not been injured. The run is over. We are not going back to the post-season anytime soon if management doesn’t step it up.

By ncscoots

August 8, 2006 07:14 PM | Link to this

MBATL, you might be right about Bobby Jones, don’t think it was we who had that conversation! What the hey, that’s even less important to me than…well, a lot. BTW, we really do forget that those pitching staffs were the aberration, not the norm, don’t we? It’s tough living among the little people again, LOL, with a good pitcher or two, and average or worse elsewhere on the staff.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 07:15 PM | Link to this

Here’s the thing that kills me about all some folks on this blog. All I heard was how stupid it was for the Braves to even consider trading Andruw to the Red Sox for Hansen and Crisp because while they had promise they were unproven. “Why send a all-star to a team for some youngs guys that “could” be good. However, on this blog and the previous one all day today everyone has lamented over the losses of Wainwright, Capellan, Schmidt, Betemit, Minor, and Dye and others. But, at the time they were traded they were youngsters who “could be” good but were unproven at the major league level. And they weren’t traded for minor leaguers they were traded for guys who had performed on the major league level: Drew, Neagle, Farnsworth, Kolb (I know), Lockhart, Hampton, and Hudson. So, really your arguments don’t make sense. Why is it wrong to trade Andruw (who we may not be able to resign) for some young kids who “most likely” will be great players at the major league level but are unproven, but its okay to keep those same type of players at the expense of getting guys who have done it in majors and could help the team win. That makes no sense at all! Someone explain it to me!

By ncscoots

August 8, 2006 07:26 PM | Link to this

Shoot, think I’ll go make some cobbleer and watch a little baseball. Carolina Lady, avez-vous une recipe pour cobbleer? avec meringue, n’est-ce pas? LOL

By Carolina Lady

August 8, 2006 07:30 PM | Link to this

receipe, oui! Meringue, non!!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 07:34 PM | Link to this

Roger McDowell seems like a nice guy but hes not getting it done. I dare say this pitchng staff has had more injuries this year than in the previous 15 under Mazzone. Thomoson has been hurt 3 times. Horacio three times. Davies is hurt. Reitsma is hurt. Ray hasn’t always been 100%. These guys aren’t well conditioned at all. Does anyone remember Hudson being “fatigued” after 5 innings last year? Neither do I.

During the offseason I truly believe the roster may need a major overhaul ala the Red Sox or White Sox of a couple of years ago. IMO the only players on this roster that are not eligilbe to be traded either because they are cornerstones for the future, too valuable, or becuase of contracts can’t be traded are: C. Jones, Hampton, Smoltz, Francoeur, McCann, and Renteria. Andruw is added to this list only if he agrees to sign an extension. Saying he wants to stay is not good enough. He needs to show he wants to stay. Everyone else is trade bait if it brings the right pieces. I think you have to look at it that way. This team has several needs and most of them will have to be met through trade.

By ncscoots

August 8, 2006 07:36 PM | Link to this

eh bien, pas du meringue, ma cherie!

By Bob, journalist

August 8, 2006 07:36 PM | Link to this

Thanks Krath, methinks you knew I knew … your point was made.

Doug Morgan, both sides of the question of booing poor performance certainly have their supporters. Personally, I figure players know when they’re peoforming poorly … and are aware that we do too. For that reason, I try, hard as it sometimes may be, to understand that they’re still trying hard to succeed, even when they’re falling on their faces.

In almost every game, we can find plays and efforts that deserve our cheers … and from my perspective, such a show of support and positive reinforcement accomplishes far more than belaboring the obvious with expressions of disapproval.

We each have our opinions and mine is that we do indeed have a choice as to how we choose to show support for our team.

By LeTwan Anthony

August 8, 2006 07:38 PM | Link to this

A good peach cobbler would go down well right now. LeTwan loves those sweet, juicy Georgia peaches under a crisp, buttery crust. Add a little ice cream and it is heaven.

LeTwan can think of one reason the Braves may need cobbler: ill fitting shoes that presage all kinds of toe problems; and ill-fed team that needs a little home cooking This does not include Paronto or Wickman.

Perhaps the Braves do need a good cobbler.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 8, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

jimmy smith wonders if diane lane can make good peach cobbler. hmmm … second chance? tim hudson is pitching tonight and so far he has one strikeout. diaz and thorman tonight …

carolina lady, have you forgiven jimmy smith for the kitty hawk reference? jimmy smith understands from grinch that kitty hawk is a nice, windy beach.

oh, the humanity! hudson is hit! aybar is throwing wildly! more pitching injuries? will hudson go numb after three?

By David O'Brien

August 8, 2006 08:02 PM | Link to this

My Kansas public-schooling reared its head again in today’s math. The other starters are a merely dreadful 25-41 without Smoltz, not 25-51. Can’t believe none of you math whizzes caught that mistake today, since so many jumped on my typo yesterday.

Anyway … LaRoche was scratched with that soreness above his left wrist that I referred to in earlier blog post to someone. It’s where he got drilled the other day in Cincinnati.

Too bad he’s out of lineup, because he hit two homers off Hamels last time Braves faced him July 24, two of only three homers off the young lefty this season. And tomorrow’s a dreaded day game for LaRoche …

By Diane Lane

August 8, 2006 08:03 PM | Link to this

Jimmy I am still upset with you having an affair with the neighbors husband, I’ll have to think about it. Fondly, Diane.

By journalist jimmy smith does statistics like DOB

August 8, 2006 08:13 PM | Link to this

“P” player pete orr is 18 for 91 or .198. brayan pena was 9 for 28 or .321. who would be best in a pinch hit situtaion? pena is blocked by pratt who has 23 hits in 111 at-bats. with pratt gone, pena could back up mccann and be available to pinch hit. with orr gone, t. pena and prado could show what they are capable of and if either will compete with aybar if giles is gone. if dob is right about the spring meaning little in gauging the player then the braves need to see pena and prado now. a player hitting like orr with more than 90 at-bats has demonstrated his inability already.

By Carolina Lady

August 8, 2006 08:14 PM | Link to this

Dear Jimmy Smith,

After great deliberation on the matter, you are hereby forgiven.

solemnly, the youthful (sorta) Carolina Lady

By journalist jimmy smith does statistics like DOB

August 8, 2006 08:25 PM | Link to this

“P” player pete orr is 18 for 91 or .198. brayan pena was 9 for 28 or .321. who would be best in a pinch hit situtaion? pena is blocked by pratt who has 23 hits in 111 at-bats. with pratt gone, pena could back up mccann and be available to pinch hit. with orr gone, t. pena and prado could show what they are capable of and if either will compete with aybar if giles is gone. if dob is right about the spring meaning little in gauging the player then the braves need to see pena and prado now. a player hitting like orr with more than 90 at-bats has demonstrated his inability already.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 8, 2006 08:34 PM | Link to this

oh, the humanity! a double post! jimmy smith apologizes to the other bloggers. not sure how it happened 12 minutes apart but there it is. now, another impostor. perhaps it is an institutionalized person with blogging issues. then, again, could be just a jerk. carolina young lady, jimmy smith is glad you have forgiven jimmy smith. must have been the devil working on jimmy smith when jounalist typed kitty hawk. has anyone heard from bob? is he awake? must jimmy smith always be the one to remind that bob must be awakened? never mind, bob has posted … or has he? impostor again?

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 08:36 PM | Link to this

I’m sure I’ll eat these words shortly, but Huddie looks pretty good so far.

jimmy, no argument with bringing some guys up, except that a backup catcher shouldn’t be a primary pinch hitter… unless we carry 3 catchers, it would be tough to use B Pena in the 5th, 6th innings, where Orr usually bats. (unfortunately, we’re often in need of a ph in those early innings, as DOB has pointed out.)

By Leo Mazzone

August 8, 2006 08:40 PM | Link to this

One thing you fail to mention is that Bobby leaves his starters in too long before he takes them out. Then he brings in a reliever who is having a bad night and before you know it the braves are behind 4-6 runs. Bobby shouldn’t be afraid to yank a guy when he’s losing it. Adios from Maryland.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 8, 2006 08:50 PM | Link to this

mbatl, jimmy smith agrees to an extent. journalist did not call pena a primary pinch hitter and journalist would think no one but bobby would ever call orr a primary pinch hitter. prado and pena were mentioned, too, and they could get the early at-bats. save pena for later when eddie used to come in and hit one out. the bench is just terrible right now and the braves’ best bench player is now starting in l.a. why keep orr or pratt? oh, the humanity!

By MurphyRules

August 8, 2006 08:53 PM | Link to this

Hudson fine through five, but we’re approaching the sixth (aka The Moment of Implosion). Hold on, folks.

By Bob, journalist

August 8, 2006 09:01 PM | Link to this

Most will say “It’s the sixth, warm up someone quick!” … maybe not tonight!

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 09:03 PM | Link to this

jimmy, I can only guess that the Braves think it better that Prado, Pena and Pena play every day rather than ride the pines in the Atl… and Pete has done an okay job as a pinch hitter, just nothing as a starter.

Anyway, of course I’d love to disagree more, but that’s all I’ve got in support of Pratt and Orr. Beyond that, it’s really a mystery to me.

Great job by Hudson getting that squeeze bunt down. Now let’s see him get through 7 for a change.

By supergrass

August 8, 2006 09:04 PM | Link to this

hudson helping his own cause tonight- bravo!

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 09:05 PM | Link to this

That relay by Giles was Jeteresque.

By MurphyRules

August 8, 2006 09:06 PM | Link to this

Survived it, with a little help. Nice job! Have the Braves had a complete game this season?

By Tony Almeida

August 8, 2006 09:11 PM | Link to this

And Renteria keeps sinking lower and lower and lower……..

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 09:13 PM | Link to this

BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hudson made it past the sixth with relatively little problems. OMG this could be the sign of a turnaround for him…..for the team………..Oh, wait….Let me calm down. Its only 1-0.

BTW there is no reason for Pete Orr or Todd Pratt to be on this roster. Pete Orr is a horrible pinch hitter and almost certain out when he comes to the plate. The excuse that Pratt is needed to mentor McCann no longer holds water because the kid apparently doens’t need mentoring and Smoltz himself said he has never had a catcher who calls as good a game as McCann. Now, considering some of the “jugernauts” that have come through Atlanta posing as catchers that is still high praise. Everyone loved Estrada and Olsen who were actually good catchers. So, for Smoltz to say that tells me the kid is just fine.

I know this. When Sept.1 arrives, whether the Braves are in it or not, no intelligent reason Bryan Pena, Prado, Escobar, and Salty should be the first options off the bench. Our entire 40 man roster should be called up because its not like Richmond will be in the playoffs or anything.

By John K

August 8, 2006 09:15 PM | Link to this

DOB:

Why isn’t anyone mentioning the loss of Leo Mazzone? He was able to turn around many a “washed up” pitcher. Is there any thought in the organization that maybe McDowell in in over his head and that maybe a few extra dollars to Leo might have meant a few more wins? I will admit that the Braves wouldn’t be above the Mets even with Mazzone, but they sure wouldn’t be a train-wreck!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 09:17 PM | Link to this

Is it just me or is this game starting to get an eerie feeling. One run isn’t enough is it? Maybe its just because Hudson has been so bad that you feeling you are playing with fire.

Hudson faces the lower part of the lineup in the 7th. He needs to get through the lineup and in bottom of the inning McCann and Francoeur need to work some “Baby Brave” magic.

If Bobby were smart, he would have someone in the pen warming up right now. You know, just in case. Get Paronto and McBride ready. Have Baez and Wickman on standby. We could actually be witnessing a well pitched game by the Braves.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 09:21 PM | Link to this

John K, sure there’s thought of Leo. But from what I read, Leo was NOT coming back here. The Braves didn’t even bother to negotiate because Leo said he wanted to “go home” to Baltimore, and the O’s offered him a ridiculous contract to do so. It wasn’t even in doubt.

By MurphyRules

August 8, 2006 09:21 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Renteria sucks. Hitting .312.

Bunch a f*&!in idiots on this blog.

By el bravo x

August 8, 2006 09:24 PM | Link to this

I just want C.Jones to play out, watch good Baseball and see what we got.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 09:26 PM | Link to this

Pete Orr’s batting .279 as a pinch hitter, which ain’t half bad. Go Pete Orr!

(just kidding, for the most part, but let’s at least give credit where it’s due…)

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 09:27 PM | Link to this

Amen,Murphy Rules. I wish all of our hitters sucked with .312 avg.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 09:33 PM | Link to this

MBATL, I have to admit I’m surprised by that avg from Pete Orr. It seems like everytime he comes to the plate he either strikes out or hits some weak grounder to second. I still say we could have a better option off the bench.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 8, 2006 09:35 PM | Link to this

pete orr is our best remaining canadian. also our fastest canadian not suffering numbness. credit where credit is due.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 09:39 PM | Link to this

Journalist, I hate to disagree with you because you are very esteemed and respected. But, I would say that young Thorman is our best remaining Candian.

Now, we will see if this trade will really payoff. Its Baez and Wickman time!

By MurphyRules

August 8, 2006 09:43 PM | Link to this

Ugggghhhh! How do you walk two guys to bring up Howard as the tying run?

By Vol

August 8, 2006 09:45 PM | Link to this

Three straight walks (although maybe not a bad idea with Howard). Does Baez have a finger problem?

By Tony Almeida

August 8, 2006 09:50 PM | Link to this

Apparently you morons havent noticed his average in the past month…Dumb A$$’s

By Jeremy

August 8, 2006 09:51 PM | Link to this

WHERE WAS MACAY MCBRIDE???

By journalist jimmy smith

August 8, 2006 09:51 PM | Link to this

robertjib is right! journalist lost track of how many canadians we have. maybe too many canadians is the problem . .

oh, the humanity! this bullpen is making journalist a nervous wreck. perhaps tyler yates is the answer …

By Jeremy

August 8, 2006 09:53 PM | Link to this

He is!

By MurphyRules

August 8, 2006 09:55 PM | Link to this

Hmmm, his name is Tony. What’s the likelihood he’s from New York?

Renteria is hitting .313 with 21 runs in the past month. Check your stats, dumba$$.

By Moe

August 8, 2006 09:55 PM | Link to this

Wayne Franklin to the rescue! and Tyler Yikes.

Pete Orr is small and quick: an ideal second baseman.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 09:57 PM | Link to this

Let me just say I hate Bud Selig. I cannot watch the Braves because they are not on TBS. I live in Indiana and unfortunately my cable provider does have Turner South. I have to follow on the internet which is nerve wrecking because they don’t update the damn score fast enough. I was able to see that Yates got out of the inning unscathed. No one be too harsh on Baez. That was his first bad outing and considering what could have happened we came out okay. Now, the offense needs to go out in the bottom of the 8th and put this thing out of reach.

All Baez was doing making sure Wickman had the bottom of the order to pitch to in the 9th.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 09:57 PM | Link to this

MurphyR, I don’t think most of the bloggers in here are down on Edgar. Most of us are fans who are locked up in a good ballgame.

By Moe

August 8, 2006 09:59 PM | Link to this

Is Pete Orr the Ty Cobb of Canada? Is Thorman the Babe Ruth of Canada? Is Reitsma the Dizzy Dean of Canada?

By MurphyRules

August 8, 2006 10:00 PM | Link to this

I know, MBATL, I know. I only get on here at night while I’m at work, checking the game on MLB.com (I live in Kentucky) and trying to get some good feedback on this blog. I just can’t stand it when our “fans” take every chance they can to rip on a player, especially someone like Renteria, who has been a savior this season.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 10:02 PM | Link to this

Well, MBATL, that same person who made the comment about Edgar has made several comments about him in the recent week. Say what you want about JS but he hit gold in acquiring Renteria.

By krath

August 8, 2006 10:05 PM | Link to this

Disclaimer!!!! The following observation is not an editorial statement. It is only and observation.

Been flipping back and forth between the Braves and the Cincy-St.Louis game. Jorge Sosa didn’t look half bad! Pitched long relief tonight but I noticed he got the save Sunday. He’s given up a couple of runs in a total of about 8 innings since going to the Cards.

Sometimes it just may take a change of scenery to make things click especially when things had gotten so ugly in Atlanta(If in fact things start clicking with him)

Ya know when it was announced that Leo was leaving, Sosa was about the only pitcher who acted concerned at all. Seems like whatever Leo was selling, Sosa bought it.

By MBATL

August 8, 2006 10:07 PM | Link to this

Agreed, Robert. I was just trying to cool Murphy off a little; I’m all for Edgar… much better overall than Raffy, especially considering the $$. And all I’ve said about JS is that he should’ve found a way to buy a closer in the offseason. I’m on board.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 10:20 PM | Link to this

Good job tonight by the Braves. Tim Hudson did very well. Lets pray that this will start becoming the norm and not the exception. If he pitches like this the rest of the year this team just may have a chance. The pen did good. Baez walked three straight batters but he didn’t give up the long ball and Franklin and Yates did terrific. The offense actually scored runs and won a game without hitting a homerun. For all those that dis small ball, it worked tonight. I was so proud to know that Diaz can triple and still score without a booming shot to left field. The Braves executed clutch offense perfectly with Francoeur on 3rd and McCann on 2nd w/0 out. Diaz just “put the bat on the ball” and got a sac fly. Thorman did double in McCann but again he just concentrated on getting the hit.

Lets hope this starts a big winning stretch. Its now or never. Chipper is back on Sunday. You never know. Even with us having to now call up two AAA pitchers of the week the confidence could spread. But, if I were JS I would check those waiver wires for Redman, Arams Jr., or Ortiz. With the money we had left over from the 6 mil and the rest of Sosa’s contract being taken by the Cards we could easily afford any of those guys. We have to get a starter. Lord only knows how long Horacio will be on the DL and DOB said Bobby was fairly adamant about Davies being two weeks away, which means they want him to make 3 more rehab starts.

By The Grinch

August 8, 2006 10:29 PM | Link to this

I just woke from a dream where Hudson went 7 strong innings and the bullpen didn’t implode. Man, those were some good potatoes. Someone tell me how the real game went; I missed it. :-)

By The Grinch

August 8, 2006 10:29 PM | Link to this

I just woke from a dream where Hudson went 7 strong innings and the bullpen didn’t implode. Man, those were some good potatoes. Someone tell me how the real game went; I missed it. :-)

By MurphyRules

August 8, 2006 10:30 PM | Link to this

I’m cool guys, I’m cool.

Robert, I hope you’re not talking about Russ Ortiz. I’d rather see Shiell again. Still can’t believe, with all of our problems, that we passed on Livan.

Good win tonight. Hopefully the start of a 9-2 or 10-1 stretch, which is something we HAVE to have to get back in it.

By The Grinch

August 8, 2006 10:30 PM | Link to this

I just woke from a dream where Hudson went 7 strong innings and the bullpen didn’t implode. Man, those were some good potatoes. Someone tell me how the real game went; I missed it. :-)

By Tonight on TBS

August 8, 2006 10:37 PM | Link to this

After the game…

Moscow on the Hudson (1984)

When an Oakland pitcher (Robin Williams) defects, he finds adjusting to the National League to be more difficult than he imagined. Things go downhill after his best friend (Wilson Betemit) is deported and the woman (Diane Lane) he has fallen in love with, runs off with another man. Just when things can’t get worse, he find inspiration in the songs of Jimmy Buffet and in the words of a journalist who points out that he is “the biggest disappointment on the team”. He then goes on to pitch his little heart out. (Bittersweet comedy - of the “fish out of water” variety).

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 8, 2006 10:39 PM | Link to this

Oh, Murphy, Lord no! I meant Ramon Ortiz. No, Russ can join Shiell in the Pioneer League or something.

By robdawg06

August 8, 2006 10:40 PM | Link to this

Excellent timing on a post to berate Tim Hudson DOB. I think he shut your mouth tonight. And by the way, did you see Matt Diaz be the offensive hero as I stated on another blog he would be if he played more ? Its insane to let a .300 hitter like Diaz ride the bench and play the .245 hitting Langerhans. But fans don’t know anything.

By flbravesgirl

August 8, 2006 10:46 PM | Link to this

Now that was more like it! We’ll take that version of Tim Hudson for the rest of the year. Maybe he needs to get hit in the back at the beginning of every game?

Good hitting, good defense (Marcus’s relay throw!), good pitching (minus Baez’s control issue, but no real harm done).I’d almost forgotten what it was like to watch a game where one facet of the team wasn’t self-destructing.

By Danny Glover

August 8, 2006 10:47 PM | Link to this

You know, when you think about it, almost every movie ever made has something to say about the Brave’s situation.

This phenomenon is probably a corollary to the law of six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

By robdawg06

August 8, 2006 10:50 PM | Link to this

Is Ken Ray and Oscar Villareal still on the team ? Please release them JS. There has to be two relievers at Richmond that are better ? I’d rather see Roger McDowell pitch again instead of those two.

By Chop Chop

August 8, 2006 10:53 PM | Link to this

That was an old-school Braves win, right down to the bullpen leaking a run late. The Hudson who pitched tonight was more along the lines of what I expected to see this year. Nice game all around, but the nicest thing was seeing Wickman take care of business in the ninth and talking some ball with McCann after they shook hands. McCann needs that. All-Star or not, input from good veteran pitchers has got to be welcome for him.

By robdawg06

August 8, 2006 10:56 PM | Link to this

I agree Chop. Just think if the Braves had Wickman all year. He would have saved about 15 more games that Chris “Can’tpitchsma” Reitsma and Kenny “Can’t Play” Ray blew !

By Pork Chop

August 8, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

McCann is unreal. We are not worthy of him.

By beachcomber

August 8, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

Nice win tonight, but with it I have let go of the straw I have grasped for several weeks. There is no way on this earth we will make the playoffs with three major league pitchers in our rotation. And Livan - please!!! With apologies to Paul and Art, Eric Gregg has left and gone away. Livan in a Braves uniform would be blasphemy! There are some things you just don’t do not matter how desperate.

By Don

August 8, 2006 10:58 PM | Link to this

Nice of Tim Hudson to finally show up this year after it’s too late. Hopefully he can give us 3 more like that this month and we can find somebody dumb/desperate enough to take on the rest of his contract before the end of August.

By robdawg06

August 8, 2006 11:00 PM | Link to this

What am I missing here about Livan Hernandez ? What did he do ? He defected from Cuba and was an Expos pitcher for years then went to the Marlins & Giants. He was incredible for the Marlins one year.

By robdawg06

August 8, 2006 11:04 PM | Link to this

Many teams would take Tim Hudson right now. I also blame Cox because in most of Tim’s starts he pitches well until the 5th or 6th innings. If the Braves had good middle relievers this wouldn’t be a problem. But they leave him in and he gets rocked. I realize he should pitch 6 or 7 solid innings but 5 is enough if you have a good bullpen. Then you got Smoltz that can go 8 to give the bullpen some rest.

By robdawg06

August 8, 2006 11:09 PM | Link to this

But typically in Hudson’s starts he is winning like 4 - 2 in the 6th and gives up 3 runs making it 5-4 opposing team. The the great Villareal or Ray comes in to put the game outta reach allowing 3 to 5 runs together. Final score then : 9-4 Braves lose.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 8, 2006 11:09 PM | Link to this

problem with the canadian players: peT*ErsOn thomas gord orr, chrisT*OphEr michael reitsma, scotT rObErt thorman.

By Greg

August 8, 2006 11:14 PM | Link to this

If Hudson goes on a tear and Smoltz stays consistent and chipper comes back, I think the Braves can make the playoffs. Chuck james is going to have to step it up. Virreall needs to take it up a notch when he relieves. It is good to see Giles hitting again. Bobby Cox needs to keep giles in the 2nd hole and place Renteria in the leadoff spot when chipper comes off the DL. I would drop Francouer to 7th in the line up because although he has power, he strikes out a lot, hits into too many double plays and can be a rally killer. It place LaRoche behind Andruw in the 5th hole when the Braves face righties and place McCann in the 6th hole against lefties. They need to play Langerhans more because Thorman is not good in the outfield.

By Moe

August 8, 2006 11:18 PM | Link to this

HoRam went on a “tear” as have Davies and Thompson previously. That is not necessarily a good thing.

By The Grinch

August 8, 2006 11:34 PM | Link to this

Terribly sorry about the triple post earlier; the AJC told me each time that an error occured. I finally gave up and did something else, only to come back and find out they were lying. Apologies. Journalist Jimmy, have you uprooted the “Canadian Toe Epidemic?” If you are indeed the first journalist on the scene for this one, a Wurlitzer is definitely in your future. There shall also be pie.

By Editor, Ecaudor Post

August 8, 2006 11:43 PM | Link to this

Senor Jimmy, you are also deserving of the most prestigous award in Latin American journalism, the Farfisa.

Congratulations!

By Tomahawkin

August 8, 2006 11:46 PM | Link to this

Grinch, Whad up, Finally got a good outing by Hudson, after I called his a-s-s out on the last blog, Maybe I need to do that more often…Bout to go hit up the Piano Bar, Be back later…

By Bob, journalist

August 8, 2006 11:55 PM | Link to this

Good win … I’ve been attending to chores and only checked the GameTracker a couple of times … looks like the eighth was a bit dicey.

I know that it’s accepted that you play while hurt and virtually everyone does as a matter of course … but it’s of concern to find indications that early warning signals may have been ignored with some of the pitchers who have subsequently suffered significant injuries … Ramirez being the latest.

Per David O’B’s report … “It only hurts when I touch it or grab something,” said Ramirez, who said he had some soreness in his previous two starts, but nothing that affected his pitching until it worsened in the fourth inning Monday. “It’s not a complete tear. It’s a good sign it didn’t swell.”

An ounce of prevention might emilinate the necessity of callups or trades under unfavorable conditions. Does anyone know what transpires when a pitcher indicates he’s experiencing discomfort … before it errupts into a disaster?

As an aside, épatant mon ami Scoots! but, methinks it’s unfair for folks to speak in Greek on a Blog that is championed by an Irishman.

By MEB

August 9, 2006 12:01 AM | Link to this

Hey, is Jeff Torborg on the disabled list? The Turner South telecasts can sure use his presence. Could he be suffering from a soft tissue injury? For heaven’s sake, please don’t let it be the toes.

By TommyA

August 9, 2006 12:01 AM | Link to this

I was optimistic about McDowell at the beginning of the season, after all he can’t pitch for these guys…It’s about philoshopy and mechanics. However, he should have helped straighten out some of these guys by now. I believe Leo would have. The whole staff is a shambles, save one or two guys. Injuries aside, these guys are terrible and they don’t look to be getting any better. You can attribute much of that to coaching, especially with all of the young guys in there.

BTW - Robert (Justice is the best), you can get the video feed of the games on the internet for like $40 for the entire season, thru mlb.com. I had to do it last year being in Miami. This year I switched to the directv package, but with the way these guys are playing, I am starting to feel like I wasted my money.

By Jimmy

August 9, 2006 12:03 AM | Link to this

Are our pitchers not exercising or warming up before games…Davies, Thompson (whose p*ssy just hurts) and now Ramirez are all on the DL???

By David O'Brien

August 9, 2006 12:07 AM | Link to this

yeah, robdawg, he really shut my mouth tonight, didn’t he? Because heaven knows I was the only one who was critical of him as he went 2-6 with a 7.60 ERA over 10 starts before tonight, and came in with an 8-10 record and 5.22 ERA. Yeah, he shut my mouth tonight, makes all the earlier struggling irrelevent, right?

Nice comment. Do me a favor. Try to write one post _ just one _ that is as witty, clever or astute as the other regulars here. Just one. Something other than attacking me for pointing out how completely out of touch you are with the actual inner workings of the team, despite the fact you constantly berate people and act as though you really have a clue.

Just make one point that’s not absurd or a knee-jerk, immediate reaction to something. One point to show some of us that you have some idea how the game is played and how a franchise is run.

While you try to come up with one, I’d like to share with the others here. People, how many times are the Braves going to do this to us? Just when you’re ready to start shoveling dirt on them, they win the game that would have led you to do so.

You look at all the teams ahead of them and think, no way they can win the wild card. Then they win a game like this and you look again and see they’re only 5-1/2 back and think … well …

If Hudson had pitched like this, anywhere close to this, all season, who knows where they might be? I think tonight’s game certainly answers those who were convinced that he’s pitching hurt. I mean, people, you can’t pitch like he did tonight if you’re hurt. He’s just not been good, and he reiterated that tonight, how frustrated he’s been by his performance and how this isn’t the real Hudson, these numbers he’s put up.

I heard a caller to a radio show today insisting that Cox was wrong to keep pitching Hudson because he clearly must be injured, and until he gets straightened out or healthy he shouldn’t be permitted to pitch. I wonder if that guy will call in again tomorrow?

By TommyA

August 9, 2006 12:09 AM | Link to this

I agree Jimmy. Who is in charge of conditioning these guys. Maybe it’s time to let him go.

By Jimmy

August 9, 2006 12:15 AM | Link to this

DOB…to say Hudson has been a bust so far would be an understatement. You’re right on point as you always are my man. Some people just only leave their cave to talk smack…robdawg.

By Bob, journalist

August 9, 2006 12:19 AM | Link to this

David O’B, I know folks are tired of my overuse of the expression “the irrational can always rationalize” … don’t be too surprised if that guy calls in tomorrow and say words to the effect “See, what did I tell you, all this time he’s being playing hurt!”.

By The Grinch

August 9, 2006 12:23 AM | Link to this

I agree, Dave; I was thinking to myself earlier this proves he wasn’t hurt. Which in truth, kind of bothers me more, because that leaves no excuse other than that he’s suddenly (this year, anyway) just forgotten how to be a consistently good pitcher. It just doesn’t make sense; he had plenty of success earlier in his career, and it’s not like he’s getting old. He should be in his prime, but he isn’t and it’s mighty confusing. I bet he’ll pitch just good enough from here on out for management to keep him, only to have much of the same next season. Hope I’m wrong, or if they do keep him I hope he pulls his head from his nether regions and continues to pitch well, since he obviously still knows how.

By The Grinch

August 9, 2006 12:27 AM | Link to this

Gotta get some work done, Y’all; in case I crash out before I return someone take care of T’Hawkin’ when he gets back; he’ll likely be typing under the influence. :-) Later…

By JJMB

August 9, 2006 12:40 AM | Link to this

Woo-Hoo! Hudson pitches a good game, and Cynthia McHideous gets voted out of office! I’ve had worse days.

By Tomahawkin

August 9, 2006 12:55 AM | Link to this

D.O.B. U know I was on Hudson’s a-s-s as well for pitchging like a #5 starter, during a time when we needed him to be our #1, as well as most rational fans…

I’m not really getting off Hudsons back til we see the Hudson we saw in Oakland, more than one outing….

Grinch, I didn’t stay long, Had a long Islnad Tea, and Rolled out, It was wack, bout to go watch some old Married With Children Reruns

By Tomahawkin

August 9, 2006 12:56 AM | Link to this

holy shyt, can’t believe I spelled island, like that…

By Kentavo

August 9, 2006 01:11 AM | Link to this

Chipper comes off the DL Sunday. Ya’ll know that means? Giles back at leadoff.

By David O'Brien

August 9, 2006 01:20 AM | Link to this

Yes, and Huddy agrees _ he knows it’s just one outing and that it’s up to the starters (other than Smoltz) to set a better tone than they have so far. He said so tonight.

By the way, how freakin’ good was Giles tonight? Wow. The little dude is absolutely playing at another gear lately. Did you see him tearing around first base on that hit he tried to stretch to a double? He playing his a*# off, and The Play on the relay throw from Francoeur _ Giles threw that ball perfectly to third, almost blindly, while falling backward, and in one motion after reaching over his head to catch Francoeur’s missile. Helluva play. And his shovel play on the grounder to get Burrell was also quite clutch.

Giles, by the way, is hitting .327 with a .415 OBP, six homers and 22 RBIs in his past 41 games, including .421 (24-for-57) with almost a .480 OBP in his past 14 games.

He keeps playing like that, it’s gonna be awful hard for the Braves to let him go this winter, even if he’s going to make $5 mill. They haven’t made that decision yet, by the way, from what I’m told.

Speaking of trades, Betemit goes 3-for-4 with a homer tonight, Baez walks three consecutive guys in the eighth inning. Yikes!

By David O'Brien

August 9, 2006 01:24 AM | Link to this

And by “letting him go” this winter, I mean trade him of course. But the Braves haven’t decided if they’ll trade Giles or keep him. Those decisions to be made later, after they see what they’ve got, what’s available, what they might get for Giles, etc.

Bobby’s got an interesting decision when Chipper gets back, doesn’t he? He acknowledged today that batting leadoff might have had something to do with Giles’ struggles, “a little bit maybe,” Bobby said, and you could tell he hated saying it.

The only option other than moving Giles back to leadoff might be hitting Edgar first and Giles second. Maybe since Edgar’s cooled slightly, Bobby would be more willing to consider it. That or have Diaz lead off if he’s in left field (the way Langerhans has hit this year, that’s a tough sell, the thought of Langy leading off).

By Bob, journalist

August 9, 2006 01:32 AM | Link to this

Now why would SuperHero Grinch say “I bet he’ll pitch just good enough from here on out for management to keep him, only to have much of the same next season”?

When I said I’d back your play, I’d didn’t expect such nonsense as this … how much did we bet? Then I read that you want us to lose … Cutty and White Owls for you.

By The Grinch

August 9, 2006 04:35 AM | Link to this

Now, Journalist Bob, what an UGLY thing to wish upon someone. Not as bad as Mr. Boston and King Edward, but still…Keep in mind though I am often optomistic, I am not always, especially involving those who have no buisness underachieving. My unbridled enthusiasm for our young team the other night stemmed from seeing an overall glimpse of what I think they can and will be when they hone their chops(pardon the pun). They are playing with fire and intensity and they’re not far off from overcoming the mistakes of youth. Hudson has no excuse whatsoever for being mediocre, and I don’t usually trust people like that, hence my earlier comment. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not being negative just to be negative. There’s nothing I’d like more than to see him return to form and stay there; he just hasn’t quite earned my trust, and I suspect I’m hardly the only one that feels that way. Unlike many of the rest, however, I’d like to see him succeed rather than be run out of town. I’m just saying, I’d rather him be run out of town than fumigate the place without reason. And where, WHERE did you read something of mine that could possibly be interpreted as me wanting our team to lose? That is rank heresy!

By FOX AM NEWS, BREAKING STORY

August 9, 2006 05:00 AM | Link to this

According to ground-breaking investigative work by esteemed journalist Jimmy Smith (recently special to Fox news), it has been reported that an epidemic of toe problems stemming from our neighboring country to the north has the potential to become a nationwide pandemic. Smith first noticed the problem amongst players on his hometown baseball team, the Atlanta Braves, as part of an effort to uncover their sudden, seemingly inexplicable inability to bury the Mets within the cellar of the National League East, their usual dwelling place. Refusing to give up, Smith ingeniously decoded a nefarious plot by the Canadian government to sabotage America’s pastime. The U.S.-Canadian border has been sealed off, and Canadian celebrities have been quarrantined. Negotiations initiated by the Canadian government for the return of their celebrities are underway, with the noteable exceptions of William Shatner, Adam Sandler and Celine Dion, who we may be forced to keep. Representatives from the CDC in Atlanta and the American Podietry Center (Toeffranil, Kentucky) are on the scene as we report. Phone calls to a local Zoo regarding the possible connection to a recently deceased girraffe were not immediately returned. Terror alert: ELEVATED

By The Grinch

August 9, 2006 05:03 AM | Link to this

Good work, Jimmy! Maybe from here on out we can get the inside scoop. G’night, All!

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 06:02 AM | Link to this

random thoughts on the overnights (with a tip of the hat to Jimmy Cannon)…Bob, you’re right, the only other language that might be appropriate on an Irishman’s blog might be Bushmill’s, but that’s it (forgotten most of my French grammar and vocab anyway)…HUdson must have had SOMETHING working prety good last night, saw some pretty weak hacks from Philly, especially first three innings…Marcus may not like hitting first, but he’s seeing the ball so well, will it make any difference (if Bobby puts him back there when Chipper returns)…just because Baez and Wickman are here NOW (and I’m happy they are), does not mean they will be the best late-inning options available this winter…I think it was on another blog, but someone suggested bringing Elvis Andrus up for a look. Don’t think he’s quite ready for that yet, let’s wait until he’s at least shaving every day…the play at third on Howard, with those two laser beams from Francoeur and Giles? whooo…Whoever is posting those movie synopses, keep it up. they are absolutely hilarious…brewing up some Kona this morning (recent gift from a friend of mine), so I’m off to generate my share of W’s budget. Good day to all, and all hail the blog!

By Don

August 9, 2006 07:10 AM | Link to this

robdawg has reached a level of idiocy rarely seen on this board, blaming Bobby Cox for Hudson’s problems. Cox should be pulling Hudson after the fifth inning. But everybody in baseball wants the remaining three years at $32 million (plus a $1 million buyout) for an “ace” who can only go five innings. Of course, robdawg is also ignoring the recent occasions when Hudson was shelled before the 5th.

Yesterday somebody was bashing McDowell because the pitchers, including Hudson, are out of shape. Hudson can’t go beyond 5 because he isn’t in shape. I presume that’s somebody who listens to games on the radio since Hudson probably weighs about 165 and looks like he could be a marathon runner.

Dave, I can’t believe you’re still hanging on to some hope that the Braves are still in this. The Braves are 5 1/2 games back with 9 teams tied or ahead (maybe it’s 8, I haven’t looked at the standings after last night). If you were to take the remaining NL schedule and pick the winners you wanted to maximize the Braves chances, you’d see how hard coming from behind to beat out 9 teams would be. The Cardinals and the West leader have effectively backed up to the wild card race. Any NL games that don’t involve the Mets, Pirates or Cubs are essentially two wild card candidates playing each other. One team will win. So the Braves need for the Mets, Pirates and Cubs to play .550-.600 ball and for the other teams to play around .500 or less, splitting with each other while losing to the Mets, Pirates and Cubs. And then the Braves can play .650 baseball and come up on the rail.

Of course, you can always point at the Dodgers jumping to the top of the wild card race by winning 10 in a row and that’s true. But I don’t see the Braves doing that with 2 starts out of 5 coming from minor league quality pitchers who we can’t even name at this point.

And with regard to Betemit…..sigh. I think we will look at it next year and realize we basically gave him away while we’re trying to figure out who fills in for Chipper who’s on the DL again. It’s amazing how many people have been saying sign Baez on the basis of seeing him 3 or 4 times. It’s like all those blown saves for the Dodgers happen because we didn’t watch them.

By JasonInMaine

August 9, 2006 07:12 AM | Link to this

Is there no starter on waivers that the Braves can get instead of searching their minor league rosters? Wouldn’t Tony Armas Jr or someone of some major league experience be better than Lance Cormier? There aren’t many teams with a worse record, so the Braves should be able to claim someone.

Regards,

Jason

By Charles

August 9, 2006 07:40 AM | Link to this

Betemit trade dumb, dumb, dumb. The ball club has not played well since his departure. Rotation is a joke. Pitching is a joke (Smoltzie exception). It has not hit me yet but we will not be in the playoffs. WOW!!!!!! We need to get some real talent in here to teach the baby braves. We will be looking outside next year as well if we do not. Trade the injury plagued third baseman. Just my view.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 9, 2006 07:45 AM | Link to this

Hey, Jason. Nice to have you back. I haven’t seen you on here in a while. I always enjoy your posts whether I agree with you or not. You know some people on here aren’t the brightest.

Anyway, I would think there has to be someone. Armas or Redman would be my choices. However, JS may be hesitant to do such a trade and give up prospects for what amounts to a pitcher being rented for the next six weeks. The Nationals are tending to over value their players and are wanting a king’s ransom for all of them. If the Nats would take a couple of A or AA guys then it could be worth it. I can’t imagine going with Cormier and either Barry or Lerew for the next 2 to 3 weeks. And even when Davies returns we need a solid starter. I think getting Armas would be a good idea. He could take Thomson’s spot in the rotation next season and maybe James could be sent to the minors for some seasoning.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

August 9, 2006 08:11 AM | Link to this

Time will tell how dumb the Betemit trade is or is not. Overall Betemit has not played that great since joining the Dodgers. Now, I do think the team’s play may have something to do with the loss of Betemit because he was such a popular player. Now, with Chipper coming back Sunday what would have been done with Betemit? He would have to go back to the bench. You would be crazy to take Giles out of that lineup right now. His defense is light years better than Betemit’s and his bat is on fire right now. Look at the numbers between the two since the trade and tell me who has been better.

Bobby has a very intersting decision to make Sunday. I think Bobby would be a fool to put Giles in the leadoff spot again. Here is my suggested lineup:

1. McCann 2. Giles 3.C Jones 4. A Jones 5. Renteria 6 LaRoche 7 Francoeur 8. Langerhans/Diaz/Thorman

My reason for batting McCann leadoff is because he gets on base. He doesn’t have speed or steal bases but since when has the Braves expected such things from their leadoff hitter

By matches

August 9, 2006 08:13 AM | Link to this

DOB, I think Langerhans might surprise you in the leadoff spot. I actually thought having him lead off was a possibility during the winter. Give him a clearly defined role, and he might be pretty good.

And in any event, while it’s great to have an aces leadoff hitter, I think the value of it is a bit overrated. Our offense has been pretty potent at various times this year even when Giles wasn’t hitting anything. Boston’s gotten by with Youkilis leading off most of the season; the Yankees haven’t had a classic leadoff guy until this season. If Giles is more comfortable hitting second, hit him second and shuffle some other folks around.

By Shaun

August 9, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

Nice piece. We hear about the bullpen a lot but the starters deserves plenty of the blame, too (aside from Smoltz).

…

I’m not sure why the Braves didn’t claim Livan and try to acquire him, unless maybe they were scared off by his contract. Livan would probably improve things a little, but is he worth giving up the pitching prospects it would take and the money on his contract? I don’t think so, given that Livan hasn’t been too spectacular this season. Still, we should have at least put in a claim and tried to get the Nats to pay something on his contract, given that we were going to be chasing whoever acquired him in the wild card race.

…

Imagine the young pitching (and position) talent trading Giles and/or Andruw could bring in. I think the Schuerholz needs to start looking at the Minnesota Twins and Terry Ryan as an example.

By mariner

August 9, 2006 08:22 AM | Link to this

i want giles to hit second and renteria to lead-off. only because giles has really forced the issue by taking off in the 2 spot, and renteria has cooled a bit. i’d like diaz to get a chance to play lf everyday, i think he’s earned the chance. and i think langerhans keeps adding evidence that he’s a great 4th outfielder and nothing more.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Langerhans is a solid player, but I agree that he may not be a great everyday player.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

I think batting Renteria leadoff would be a good move. .385 on-base and it would give one of the top three hitters a few more plate appearances.

Obviously I don’t know the psychological aspect of things, i.e. whether Giles was comfortable in the leadoff spot. I would guess Giles’s earlier struggles had more to do with his injury problems than batting leadoff. If that’s the case, I think Giles is a fine option for leadoff. He’s hitting .271/.361/.406 and, if he’s healthy, he’s probably our third-best hitter behind the Jones boys.

By Haywood Jablome

August 9, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

Marcus has definitely raised his game lately. Too bad it’s probably just an audition for another team next year. The Braves are desperate for good, young arms. Tony Armas, Jr is so injury-prone that he’s more trouble than he’s worth and don’t even get me started on Mark Redman…no more “soft-tossers”!

By Hal

August 9, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

some one earlier made a sarcastic reference to starting pithers traded away or not offered contracts ok heres a few

Jason Schmidt (giants) Zack Minor (tigers)Jason Marquis (Cards)Jarret Wright (yanks)Paul Byrd (indians)

Now i know thats not Smoltz ,Glavine ,Maddux and Avery BUT its a hell of a lot better then the garbage we have left

By Rodger

August 9, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

WOW-lots to catch up on.

First, DOB-have you been hangin’ with Coach Mora-you’re getting a little touchy!

Krath-interesting point on Sosa.

On the play at third, Giles gets a lot of credit for a great relay, but check Frenchy. While running down the ball, he turned to get a fix on where his relay man was, so he didn’t have to look when he came up to throw. The kid shows game savvy that you don’t see much any more (except for guys like Jeter).

And maybe the key for Huddy was getting smacked with the line drive-woke him up? Maybe someone should have taken a bbat to him sooner.

Baez, however, was concerning.

By Ken

August 9, 2006 09:48 AM | Link to this

Maybe some of you are too young to remember Rick Mahler, Bob Walk, Jeff Dedmon, Rick Camp, Ken Dayley, etc. As bad as some of this years pitching performances have been, it could be worse.

By Rodger

August 9, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

Believe it or not Ken, I remember. And tho I agree on Dedmon and Dayley, Mahler, Walk and Camp weren’t that horrible-remember they had the bad & worse news bears playing behind them!

By btoy

August 9, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

How much of Gile’s recent success has come when Hitting number two? With Chipper come back there must be some tough decisions to be made.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

BC may have little choice but to bat Edgar leadoff once Chipper returns. It’s obvious, for whatever reason(s), Marcus simply can’t be “comfortable” as a leadoff hitter. Edgar, however, has batted there many times in his career. Here are a few statistical tidbits regarding Edgar in the leadoff hole:

At Bats - 247 (in 64 games)

Hits - 70 (including 14 doubles & 6 HR)

Walks - 27

Avg. - .283

OBP - .351

He ain’t Rickey Henderson, but only Rickey be Rickey. He is Edgar, though, and the consumate professional. The “Marcus Experiment” is over and the conclusion is easily drawn.

By bryan

August 9, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

i don’t say much in these blogs, usually when i do it’s to commend DOB with his remarks to other bloggers that don’t have much of a clue (not that i do). it just makes me laugh. i love it. i actually have comments on the braves this time. 1. Andrew - you people that say to trade him or let him go are crazy. he’s the best defensive player at his position and he can hit. yes, he’ll cost a lot when his contract is up, but maybe an extension to his current one may save some money. who knows? if he does goes elsewhere, i sure hope it’s the AL so the braves don’t have to face him. 2. leadoff - i saw someone write that mccann should lead off…HA! might as well have laroche lead off. as much as mccann gets on base, he is not leadoff guy. it’s obvious that giles wasn’t the fit, but he tried and was willing to do it for the team. i wouldn’t ever trade him either. he’s got too much heart and he should stay in the 2-hole. i would say renteria is really the one that should take a stab at it. he gets on base, leads the team in SB and runs scored, T-3rd in BB and doesn’t strike out much (not as much as Giles anyway)…and he’s a veteran that could probably handle it. it seems he’s comfortable in atlanta, so i don’t see another slip like he had in boston. 3. wildcard - as much as i would love for the braves to make the wildcard, i just don’t see it. the braves attitude seems different (even though i only see them on TV). the past years, they would lose a game and it was like - eh, we’ll do it tomorrow. now it seems like when they lose, they wonder how long the losing streak will last. maybe that’s how i feel about it, but it’s the look on thier faces on TV that i get this from. just an opinion is all. not to mention the depth is getting thinner by the week. can’t we have a young guy in the rotation that stays healthy too? by the way, i think that hudson is just having an off year. sure he wasn’t great last year, but he wasn’t bad either. if he fails to regain his form next year, then chalk it up as his decline, but i really think he can turn this around. especially if he approaches games like he did last night. he seemed to have more velocity and his location was great. i like the way he pitched in more on guys.

By KC

August 9, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

Well when it rains, it pours folks. No sooner do we finally get a vintage performance out of Tim Hudson then we receive news that HoRam may be lost for the season. Aaaaaand… that should just about do it. The nail is in the coffin.

Even if Hudson can keep up the great work he started yesterday… I’m not sure what hope we have with HoRam out for the season. Despite popular belief, Horacio had been quite good for us. He was absolutely stellar in 9 of his 12 starts since coming off the DL (the first time) back in May. And despite giving up a 2-run homer to Ryan Howard, he was pitching pretty well into the 5th inning the other night before leaving with the finger injury. That’s a big, big loss… probably too big to overcome.

The only hope the Braves have would be for Kyle Davies to come off the DL like a bat out of hell and pitch the rest of the season like he did the first time they added him to the rotation last year. I think we’ll all agree… that’s a long shot.

Well, okay… there’s one more ever so slight possibility. John Thompson has pitched extremely well for the Braves at times since coming to Atlanta. He was one of the best pitchers in baseball over the second half of the 2004 season, and was quite good before going on the DL last year. He also led the league in ERA for the first 6-8 weeks of this season. If healthy, he’s shown the ability to deliver. But between his injury proneness (of course he’s still on the DL as we speak), and his inconsistency… it would take an awfully big leap of faith to get your hopes up on that one.

It may be grasping at straws to hope that either Davies or Thompson will help lead the Braves to the post-season, but just thought I would point out that both have shown the ability to deliver in a big way. Stranger things have happened. But in all likelihood, we’ll probably just have to save our energy for next season, which looks very promising.

Oh well… the streak (both the division streak and the post-season streak) had to end sometime. We’ll get another one started next year.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Hal-Schmidt has been gone the better part of a decade after posting a 6+ ERA, Marquis was given every chance here and hasn’t exactly been a world beater with St. Louis, Jarret Wright has stunk with the Yankees as well as being injured a good bit of the time and Paul Byrd missed more than a full season with the Braves and then signed an outrageous contract. Miner never showed much of anything in the (excuse me) miners and has a high ERA with an extremely hot hitting team. How much difference are we talking here? Our problem this year has been injuries and the lack of a bullpen for much of the season. The group of rejects you mention (Miner excepted) weren’t worth keeping. That’s why they are underachieving elsewhere. Shaun with a U-Livan is owed $7 million next year. I’d be scared off too.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

Jason Schmidt (giants) Zack Minor (tigers)Jason Marquis (Cards)Jarret Wright (yanks)Paul Byrd (indians)

Hal,

Schuerholz is not perfect. But in hindsight, it’s easy to criticize him. If you have a chance to trade away a young pitcher for a shot at a World Series title, you have to do it because a) it’s not guaranteed you’ll get that opportunity again and b) young pitchers are far from a sure thing. That is if you think you are one or two players from a shot at the playoffs/World Series.

ESPN’s Rob Neyer wrote an interesting column about this a few months back. Look at Baseball America’s list of top pitching prospects from 10 years ago. Maybe three or four had halfway productive careers. Then look at the hitting prospects. Almost all of them made something of themselves. Hitters are almost guaranteed to give you something while pitchers are almost guaranteed not to live up to their hype. I know it’s just looking at one year, but it’s almost always the case.

In your list above, really only Jason Schmidt has been that impressive so far. I suppose Zach Minor could become a Cy Young contender but the odds are against it. And the rest have been middle- to bottom-of-the-rotation starters throughout their careers.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 9, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

journalist jimmy smith is humbled by the reaction of bloggers to journalist’s discovery that all canadian players have a hidden “t-o-e” in their names. is an extra toe an impediment to proper baseball performance? was the extra toe declared at the border? does having an extra toe reveal character flaws? could the extra toes (3 extra toes, total) be loaned to a player thought to have only two toes on each foot at this time? that would make 7 toes, total, for this player until we can trade for more canadians (dob, please check journalist’s math). now, hudson … journalist remembers dob’s cutting edge article revealing hudson’s ugly toes. perhaps hudson has seen a toe-man? listerine? oh, the humanity! hudson pitched well. everyone should celebrate with pie.

“Glad I could bring a ray of sunshine to your day. Pass the pie.” _dob

By David O'Brien

August 9, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

Don, agreed on Baez. He’s very erratic, exceptional when “on” but dreadful when not. Which is why I’d never give him $5 mill a year when he becomes a free agent this winter (guessing the market could go to that for him, but maybe not given his poor overall season).

As for Betemit, Robert made good point _ Betemit, if he were here, would certainly be headed back to the bench when Chipper comes off DL. Giles is playing like the old Giles now, and yes, his defense is head-and-shoulders above Betemit’s. It just is.

Rodger, touching like Mora? Hey, I think most of my ire was directed at one person and one only. I mean, the string of posts that he put up … it’s hard for me to sit back and suffer fools.

By David O'Brien

August 9, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

Oops. Meant to say “touchy” like Mora. Not touching. God, give me more coffee.

Gotta get to the ballpark. Later

By Rodger

August 9, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

I’m with you DOB!

We appreciate the work you do here, and some people just wnt to B** I guess?

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

Thanks, DOB, for clarying the touching/touchy thing up. I was beginning to be a little concerned. (I know they all room together for several weeks at camp…)

By Lew

August 9, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Esteemed Journalist Kimmy-You are correct, as usual, Hudson’s performance should be celebrated, in hopes there are more such performances to follow. I would love to celebrate with pie, but the Hartebeest ate it all. It failed in it’s search for Ernie Johnson and now has gone to help “seal” off the Canadian border in hopes of locating Baby Seal.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

I meant Journalist Jimmy. Journalist Kimmy is not a nice person.

By nathan

August 9, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

Here’s a link to an ESPN story that pretty much explains it all for me.

Just thought I’d share with all of you. Enjoy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=2542722&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos2

By Rodger

August 9, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

Excellent article, nathan-thanks.

By tigger101023

August 9, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

Far to easy to blame our recent play on Betemit. He got traded the same night that Chipper went down - perhaps the problem is no Chipper? And a red hot Chipper, at that.

It would be nice if there was a place for Betemit as a regular, but there wasn’t. I have no issues with the trade or keeping Chipper over Betemit.

Starting pitching has been the problem since Betemit left. Yes, stranding some baserunners has hurt, but at the end of the day, the subject of this blog is the problem more than the offense. It is unfortunate that Chipper got hurt, but I think this trade’s harm to the club is being waaaaay overblown.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

Nathan-It is an interesting article. However, I again ask the question (mainly because I really don’t know the answer), how many money ball teams have won it all? I don’t think there have been that many. Certainly not Billy Beane and the A’s.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

i don’t say much in these blogs, usually when i do it’s to commend DOB with his remarks to other bloggers that don’t have much of a clue (not that i do). it just makes me laugh. i love it.

Bryan,

You start out by saying this and then you write all of what you wrote. That’s funny to me.

You can’t go wrong keeping Andruw, but if the Braves get three good young players they would be better off trading him. Three good players are better than one expensive great player.

And it really doesn’t matter who bats leadoff. What’s more important is who’s in the lineup. Batting order is overrated (see Baseball Between the Numbers; they devote a whole chapter to batting order).

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

Lew, I think the point being made by nathan (who knows I would never speak for him!) is that this particular Braves team, overall, hasn’t found that fine line between being too aggressive and too selective. I’d certainly agree with that, though I lean toward inexperience, rather than a conscious hitting strategy, as the cause of most of that.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

Shaun Payne-Question here-Have you heard of anyone offering three good players for Andruw? Boston offered two, one a totally unproven player and one an outfielder of questionable durability. They balked when asked to include a third player. Actually, the player they objected to trading was the only one who really might have been decent. Trading Andruw should require a much higher return than what we were offered. Three players are NOT as good or better than one proven superstar. That is unless the three players could actually replace a potential MVP season performance. None of these players would have done that.

By TriangleFan

August 9, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

NCScoots and MBATL

MBATL, you might be right about Bobby Jones, don’t think it was we who had that conversation! What the hey, that’s even less important to me than…well, a lot.

The third pitcher on that Mets version of “Young Guns” was Paul Wilson. Mets’ Young Guns Crash and Burn

By KC

August 9, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

I’m a little conflicted. I want to see what Scott Thorman will become as we continue to play him everyday. But on the other hand, I would like to see a true leadoff hitter in this lineup next year.

I think when Chipper comes back, we’ve got to leave Giles where he is and try Renteria in that leadoff spot. He’s hit there successfully before if I’m not mistaken, so maybe he can do it again. If so, I comfortable with hitting Renteria leadoff next year, and keeping the rest of the lineup primarily the same.

If Renteria doesn’t respond well to the leadoff spot, then I think we will need to pick up a true leadoff guy before next season. If we do that… here’s what I think the lineup should look like next year:

1-(true leadoff hitter, whoever that may be) LF

2-Giles 2B(R)

3-Chipper 3B(S)

4-Andruw CF(R)

5-McCann C(L)

6-Renteria SS(R)

7-Laroche 1B(L)

8-Francour RF(R)

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

I can appreciate the take on OBP and its importance; however, here are some interesting numbers:

Baseball best team record today belongs to the Detroit Tigers at 76-37. The closest team to them are the Mets at 67-44. Detroit is clearly having a special season, yet they are 17th overall in team OBP. They are also 7th in runs scored and 8th in RBI. Detroit is, however, 1st in ERA at 3.68. Doesn’t this harken back to the old Braves’ mantra of pitching and defense up the middle? How many years in a row did Atlanta lead the league in ERA?

My take? That fact alone is why the JS must resign Andruw’s glove (not to mention is bat) and solve the rotation riddle. As much as I have banged on the bullpen this season, and I’ve done more than my share, the starters’ (sans Smoltz) inability to consistently take “quality starts” into the 7th and 8th innings has been this team’s undoing. Say what you will about the leadoff spot, about Franc’s plate discipline (or lack thereof,) about LaRoche’s slow start, about the lack of productivity from LF, etc. The offense has not been the problem. Heck, the Braves actually have more team RBI than Detroit!

Several years ago, I heard an interview with JS on a national radio show. He was asked very simply, “How have you sustained so many years of excellence?” His answer was very telling: “Every night, we feel like our starting pitcher will give us a chance to win.” Right now, it’s more like 1, maybe 2 out of 5. That, my friends, is the reason for this season’s disappointment. For 14 years, the Braves had 3 top tier starters, 1 comeback story, and 1 talented rookie in the 5th spot. This year they have 1 top starter, 1 complete mystery, numerous injuries, and several mediocre rookies.

I have to stop this rant now… My tears are gonna destroy my keyboard…

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

“Moneyball” Teams in the Post-Season

The 2004 Red Sox would be considered a “Moneyball” team. In the past, many teams that would have been considered “Moneyball” teams (the late 1960s Orioles, the 1950s Dodgers, many of the great Yankee teams, the Big Red Machine, the 1986 Mets) have won the World Series. In fact, you can make a convincing argument that almost all teams that were considered dynasties could be considered “Moneyball” teams.

And there are certain things you can do to increase your chances in the post-season, but luck plays a huge roll. (See Baseball Between the Numbers; there is a chapter on why Billy Beane’s stuff doesn’t work in the Post-Season). Many of the Billy Beane’s A’s teams lost series that could have gone either way.

By BravesFaninRockies

August 9, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this

Nathan,

Thanks for sharing. Think we could get that text imprinted on Frenchy’s brain?

Lew,

The point of Moneyball was winning, yes, but doing so consistently with one of the lowest payrolls in MLB. The A’s have been in a pennant race every year Beane has been GM, even though most seasons he had one of the bottom-five payrolls (I think $30 million or so some years). Over that time, I’d put his record up against anyone’s other than Schuerholz, Cashman and perhaps Jocketty. It’s about being competitive in limited circumstances. I think the A’s fan base would endorse that plan.

With new owners, Beane should have more money to spend, so we’ll see if he sticks to the Moneyball principles.

By KC

August 9, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

I see that Damian Moss is back in our minor league system. What went wrong with this guy? He was supposed to be the next Tom Glavine. He pitched well here, then it looks like his career just fell apart.

By BravesFaninRockies

August 9, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

Besides, Moneyball is a great read, even if you think Beane is a megalomaniac.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

Lew,

I’m not saying that someone will give the Braves 3 good young players, I’m just saying the Braves would be better off with 3 good young player over AJones.

And, yes, this does assume that the young players perform but you are assuming AJones doesn’t decline too much the next few years. Odds are he will decline the next few years, although he will remain very productive.

Like I said, you can’t go wrong keeping AJones and the Braves should try if they can’t get at least three young, good players.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 9, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

this thing of two players or three … who is counting? while dob is a fine journlaist, please do not rely on dob for matters of counting. jimmy smith has only two things to say, dob gave jimmy smith jimmy smith’s start in journalism, dob is esteemed, and dob cannot count. still, dob is a contender (always wanted to be a contend-uh) for the wurlitzer if it is ever again awarded. now, babseball … if jimmy smith is needed to start a game journalist can be ready by the weekend. journalist relies on the ugandan mamba pitch - a paralyzing pitch that produces a quick strike on the batter. have roger mcdowell call if interested.

By KC

August 9, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Shaun:

Andruw is one of the best all around players in the game. If there’s any possibility of re-signing him for 15 million or-so a season (and there definitely is)… we’ve got to keep him and try to lock him up to another 4-5 year deal.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

VOR-Thank You. There are so many OTHER factors that go into winning besides OBP. I think it (except for the quality start stat) is the most overrated stat there is in relation to a winning team. OBP does you no good without run producers. We had a huge discussion of this the other day. Also, how many HR hitters or powwer hitters were on tose teams? How good was the defense? And most importantly, how hot were the pitchers? As far as OBP goes, here is an example of what I mean. The Red Sox were mentioned. They are now in first and the Braves no where near first. Yet Coco Crisp, who many think should be traded for Andruw, has a career OBP of .331. This season, Giles has an OBP of .361. Do I need to say more?

By KC

August 9, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

John Sheurholz has some interesting things to say about Moneyball in his book. If you haven’t read JS’s book… you should. Great book.

By Adam

August 9, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

I have been wondering for months why they have tried Rentaria at the lead off spot. It’s all about getting on base, taking pitches and working pitchers. I think Rentaria fits that bill more so then Giles does. It’s obvious Giles hates leading off and is a mental obsticle for him. He thrives hitting at number 2 and has his entire time with the Braves. I think it would be a mistake to let him go over the winter. He plays the game hard and is excellent defensively. It was good to see Hudson finally work ahead in the count for a change. His control has been terrible this year. In almost all his starts this year it seemed like he was always in a 2-1 or 3-1 count. Very hard to be successful when you have to make a pitch as opposed to when you work ahead you can set up hitters and dictate pitch selection and location more. I didn’t seem him pitch all that much in Oakland, but either hitters are way more aggresive in the AL or he just had much better command of his pitches.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

I’m only posing a question here so don’t come whacking me with any heresy talk…

If you had to choose, would you rather have Andruw and his $13.5M salary for 2007, or Chipper and his $11M for each of 2007 & 2008?

Again, I’m not advocating dumping either salary. I just want to stir the pot a little…

By Lew

August 9, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

Shaun P-I still contend that it depends on WHO the three young players are. If you were talking Carl Crawford, Scott Kazmir and Johnny Gomes, I would agree. I would not agree with Crisp, Hansen and Lester, however.

By Mets Stink

August 9, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

I don’t have the time to read all of the posts on this blog, but I wanted to chime in on this money ball thing. How can some of the great teams of the past considered to be moneyball teams? Moneyball is a new concept, and it isn’t just winning with a low payroll. The main principal in moneyball is looking almost solely on player’s stats and not relying on a scouting and player development. Moneyball teams evaluate players based on historical data and future projections and often ignore traditional stats like HRs & RBIs and look at OBP and SLG%. Traditional teams like the Braves rely heavily on scouting players. Moneyball is all about sabermetrics and not necessarily about payroll.

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

VOR makes good points about Detroit. I think that brings us back to the Runs Created vs. Runs Allowed argument. Good pitching does NOT win games (as I look overhead for the lightning strike), it increases the probability that a team will score more runs than the opposition. Only the offense can produce a win, a pitcher can only prevent a loss (you can’t lose if the opposition doesn’t score, but you cannot win unless YOU do).

By Lew

August 9, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

VOR-It would totally depend on who would replace either player. On the OBP/Moneyball thing. Isn’t it a bit like a self fulfilling prophecy. The winning teams score more runs than the losing teams and more runs are scored if men are on base. Therefore winning teams would almost automatically have a higher OBP. It is, however, as NCScoots correctly points out, only an aspect and is contingent upon players with RBI’s. My question is this-How in the world did anyone manage to play ball before Billy Beane came along and wrote a book. Sabremetrics, indeed!

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

scoot - There is no simple cut and dried formula that will insure a winning season. A winning team must have: 1) good, consistent pitching, 2) potent, opportunistic offense, 3) things go their way. No knock on BBeane or the A’s, but they are in 4 team division (technically easier to beat 3 teams than 4,) against Texas (yawn,) Seattle (almost,) and Anaheim, er, LA, er, the Angels (better lately.)

Now, some would suggest the Braves were in a 4 team division when the Nat’s were the Expos, and I can’t much argue with that.

My point is: There is no real “winning formula” that you can arbitrarily employ and insure a winning team. Way too many ingredients all come together in the tasty pie of success. It only takes one bad sweet potato, though, and all of the other fine ingredients suddenly taste like crap.

I think it’s time for lunch…

By KC

August 9, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

I don’t know much about football (not a big fan)… but I think it’s interesting that in both baseball and basketball, the teams that are most adept at keeping the other guys from scoring, tend to be the most consistent winners. In the NBA, look at the Spurs and Pistons over the past couple of seasons. The Heat played very good defense when it counted most this year. Dallas finally made it to the finals only after Avery Johnson took them from a “hurry up and score so we can have the ball back”, to a defensive mentality.

In baseball, pitching and defense have been a pretty darn good formula for winning teams for over a century. Obviously, the most desirable thing is to have both great pitching/defense and a great offense. But I think you have to start with the pitching first. Great pitching and decent hitting can win a World Series. But Great hitting, and decent pitching almost never gets you very far in October.

BTW: Speaking of basketball… just wanted to inform everyone that the Spurs will be the 2006/2007 NBA Champs. Those of you throwing money in the office pool… there you go. You heard it here first.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

…or therapy…

By matches

August 9, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

KC, Moss was one of the first player suspended under the new performance enhancing drugs policy. That’s one possible explanation for his decline.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

I think it’s easier to have really good pitching and defense, complimented by an opportunistic offense than it is to have a really good offense and opportunistic pitching.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 9, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

andruw, sure …but an aging chipper jones will not return three quality players. chipper must be dealt to an american league team where he will serve as a dh - only to be injured in the cages, in the batter’s box, or on the basepaths. sad but true. we will all remember the streak chipper was on before again being injured. such a hitting performance has not been seen in many seasons. with marte gone and betemit gone there is no urgency to move chipper until the next young third baseman becomes ready. better not trade the next one in line because chipper has become very fragile. journalist thinks all attention now should be given to pitching. this team needs more pitching options.

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

now, Lew…while I’m not obessed with sabermetrics, I can understand the philosophy behind trying to find counter-intuitive correlations between different sets of data (if it produces success, and no one else knows about it, that’s a pretty big hammer). I think that was Billy Beane’s whole point, looking for affordable personnel (affordable because they did not exactly sparkle in the “traditional” areas of offensive excellence) who could create runs in other-than-traditional ways. Even Billy realizes you gotta score more than the other guy. Now that OBP, OPS, etc., are more widely recognized as indicators (whether they are or aren’t, I’m not gonna try to make THAT call), I doubt that folks like Beane rely on them as much as previously. I will say this, my perfect storm of an offense is OBP+power (and as many of my good friends on this blog like small ball, I hope they will forgive me!)

By KC

August 9, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

matches:

Really?? I hadn’t heard that. Oh well. Maybe he should call Jason Giambi and ask him where to find some HGH or something undetectable.

By KC

August 9, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

VOR: You are 100% correct.

By NLCHAMPS

August 9, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

Are the braves at .500 yet?

By KC

August 9, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

I’m still of the opinion that we should go after Jason Schmidt this winter. We can figure out how to clear payroll, and make room in the rotation for him after we get him. Having a rotation of Smoltz, Schmidt, Hudson, Hampton, Ramirez… Especially if Huddy has seen the last of his woes, would have a chance to be as good as any rotation we’ve ever had.

And having 2 big-game power pitchers at the top of the rotation would give us the best possible chance of winning another World Series. And that after all is what it’s all about, isn’t it?

I know that would mean another in waiting for Kyle Davies (either in the bullpen or at AAA), but hey… he’s still young. One more year ain’t gonna kill him. Let’s go after Schmidt this winter!

By Alex

August 9, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

KC…your projected lineup for next year sounds good, assuming that everyone plays up to their potential.

However, where would you play that lead off hitter of yours? LF? Maybe they can free up some salary and get a LF that can lead off…and have a high on base % and that can steal bases! What happend to your leadoff man being able to swipe 25-35 bases a year? Bobby has abandoned that philosophy since Nixon/Grissom/Lofton era in the 90’s.

Mark my words…the Braves got rid of the wrong 3B. They should have tried to move Chipper to the Texas Rangers where he can still hit for ave/power and DH if necessary and they should have kept Wilson Betemit. When given a full year, when he knows he will play every day, we will finally see Wilson’s potential unfold. He’ll be a solid .280, with 25+ HRS, and 100RBI’s…and here is the key…he’s not injury prone like Chipper Jones! I know that a healthy Chipper Jones is a dangerous hitter, but the last 2 years when he was needed where was he? Oh that’s right…on the freaking DL!

By don

August 9, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

Dodgers won their 11th in a row since they got Betemit. Betemit hit a homerun and went 3-4. How is Aybar doing? At least Baez only walked three in his 1/3 inning.

Are those who continually “point out” the stupidity of the Betemit trade being second guessers? Absolutely not. Our position was firm long before the trade.

Possibly Zach Miner and Adam Wainwright could have helped with the pitching mess. True, Wainwright doesn’t yet start for the Cardinals but, then, the Cardinals aren’t is such a desperate situation as are the Braves. On the other hand, look at all of those productive players we currently have from the Wainwright and Miner trades. JS, without all of those hall of fame pitchers isn’t such a genious, is he?

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

Excuse me while I prepare lunch for my 3 year old daughter, which I hope is somewhat less than offensive. (…the lunch, not my daughter… although I really don’t want her to be offensive either…)

Where’s my meds?!?

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

VOR, I agree with both your 11:37 and 11:43 posts, I certainly didn’t mean to imply that there was some “Great Statistic” that would automatically translate to a world Series title :-)! I personally don’t think that one or another stat is significantly more relevant than another, except for the one on the board at the end of nine. How you get to that stat depends on too many variables for ME to decipher!

By KC

August 9, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Alex:

Thanks. Yeah, earlier in that post I did mention LF as the only place I could see plugging in a leadoff hitter. However, I’m kind of conflicted about that because I think Scott Thorman is going to be a slugger in this league for a long time. I don’t want to take away his opportunity to play nearly every day or have to trade him to make room in LF for a leadoff hitter. That’s why my first choice is to try Renteria in the leadoff spot for the rest of the year.

If Renteria responds well in that role, I say keep him there next year, and keep the lineup pretty much the same. But if he responds to hitting leadoff in a similar manner to what Giles did in that role (not much), then I think we need to go out and get a true leadoff guy.

As to Chipper… we couldn’t have traded Chipper. His trade value wouldn’t have been very high due to the injury problems, and he would have had to approve any deal since he’s a 10-5 guy.

By NLCHAMPS

August 9, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

All your if’s and maybe’s won’t help the buffalo braves. They’re gonna suck next year too.

By ATL Fan

August 9, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

To be honest, our pitching is so bad that I forgot we had Hampton and Thompson. If you look at the scores the offense is avg. almost 5 runs a game and we are still getting drug. This is the first time since I was 8 that the Braves wont win the division. Im 23 now. This hurts man. Can you say “open tryouts”??

By bryan

August 9, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

Shaun P - when i say i don’t say much on this blog, i meant as in the frequency i post, not the quantity of each post…just to clear that up for you. as far as andruw, no i wouldn’t take 3 good young players for him. 1 - because we don’t really know about these young players and how successful they will be. i KNOW andruw can hit and play the best centerfield around. 2 - we have plenty of good young talent now, i.e. francouer, mccann, thorman, davies…you get the picture. i’m definitely not saying that we should keep what we have and play with it, but i wouldn’t make andruw a part of any player shuffling that may or may not happen.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

By Lew VOR-Thank You. There are so many OTHER factors that go into winning besides OBP. I think it (except for the quality start stat) is the most overrated stat there is in relation to a winning team. OBP does you no good without run producers. We had a huge discussion of this the other day. Also, how many HR hitters or powwer hitters were on tose teams? How good was the defense? And most importantly, how hot were the pitchers? As far as OBP goes, here is an example of what I mean. The Red Sox were mentioned. They are now in first and the Braves no where near first. Yet Coco Crisp, who many think should be traded for Andruw, has a career OBP of .331. This season, Giles has an OBP of .361. Do I need to say more?

On-base percentage correlates with winning more than any other single percentage or rate stat. That doesn’t mean just because you have a high on-base percentage, you are going to win, because obviously you still have pitch well and do other things well. It just means that there is a stronger correlation between on-base percentage and winning than there is with other percentage or rate stats.

It’s ironic that you use the Red Sox as an example here. The Red Sox have led the league in on-base percentage (and slugging percentage) the past four seasons, and have broke offensive records. You metioned Coco Crisp. Crisp is just one player and he really isn’t helping the Red Sox much. They are winning because of players like Ortiz, Ramirez, Youkilis; a lineup full of players who get on-base and have power.

By DonCoburleone

August 9, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

You know really sucks right now? The Dodger’s current 11 game winning streak. I live in SoCal (i know, i’ve said that before) and I watch alot of the Dodgers (most of my friends are Dodger fans) and it is painful to watch. They have so many former Braves on the team its ridiculous! Furcal, Maddux, Betemit, Lofton, Drew… And Furcal has been hot (as usual) since the beginning of July. He’s leading the charge for them at the top of the order, it’s painful to see cuz he is so entertaining to watch. But I hate the Dodgers, and I especially hate seeing them make a playoff push with former Braves playing a key role.

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this

There are only three stats that matter: Wins and losses.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

Alex-Whatever. Betemit for Chipper? Let’s see about those injuries. Leg injuries for playing in the outfield which has a whole different way of running. This year in SF-I guess Chipper could have avoided sliding on a terribly maintained field. It’s lucky he didn’t do serious damage to his knee AND his ankle. And an oblique muscle. Didn’t Albert Pujols spend time on the DL for his oblique? Betemit was a talented substitute that was NEVER going to replace Chipper. You and Don should just get over it. All I’ve heard the past two weeks is that the Braves don’t have an offense without Chipper. So what if he only plays 140 games a year. Catchers don’t catch that many and no one complains about that. Chipper is essential to the Braves offense. Betemit was a talented substitute and that is it. He strikes out way more than Chipper, doesn’t have the OBP and can’t hit for Chipper’s power. Betemit isn’t as great as you seem to think. If the Braves were not having a subpar year, the Betemit trade wouldn’t even be on your radar.

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

CL recently completed the DOB accounting course, I see, LOL!

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

:-)))

By journalist jimmy smith

August 9, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

raisins, try pbj, chips, and pie- watermelon optional. this will make for a nice lunch - one often favored by baby seal. after living with carolina lady for a time baby seal became more demanding of jimmy smith at meal time. apparently, carolina lady is a very good cook. still, we know she keeps crows in the freezer so it is best to identify a dish before eating. jimmy smith is not so good a cook and must rely on others for puddings and pies and such. there is a sad story that goes along with that but jimmy smith will not go into it … now, baseball trades … it was once forbidden to talk of trading chipper - one could be labeled as something other than a true fan - but the reality is that this team needs pitching and if chipper could go to an american league team and that team return the braves a major league pitcher that might be okay, right? oh, the humanity! here it comes …

By Lew

August 9, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

Shaun P-I also said it was like a self fulfilling prophecy trying to correlate OBP with winning. It’s like saying that it’s cold outside because there is snow on the ground. Ther’s really snow on the ground because it’s cold. I would be surprised if OBP weren’t a major factor in winning. However, it is only PART of why teams win. I would bet that there are teams that have high OBP and still are not the biggest winners, because they have no one batting them in. MY point is that OBP is just one of a number of factors-it is run production that counts-not just getting on base. If it were the sole determining factor, Billy Beane and his stat approach would have run away with it all every time. As a way to evaluate talent, it is not, apparently, fool proof, which is really the whole argument.

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

Jimmy, all cuisine will be completely safe. When the season headed south, so did the crows in the freezer! :-)) Have you heard from baby seal or hartebeest?? I’m concerned!

By DonCoburleone

August 9, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

And Don, the Dodgers have won 9 straight since Betemit arrived. They had a 2 game winning streak before he showed up… But still, I know what you mean. It’s funny too, cuz I see the same type of problem developing in LA that Betemit had here in Atlanta. Nomar is supposed to be coming back on like Friday, and they don’t know who they will sit to make room for him. But people here in LA are already saying there is no way they can bench Betemit. I just started laughing at that when a few of the LA sports talk show hosts were saying it. Sounds familiar right? But yeah, I defended the Betemit trade when it first happened, but damn, it’s getting tougher and tougher to do that now.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

Definition of Moneyball

When I listed past teams that would be called “Moneyball” teams, I was using a rather loose definition. The 1950’s Dodgers, the 1960’s Orioles, the Big Red Machine, the 1986 Mets, many great Yankees teams, the 2004 Red Sox, arguably every team considered a Dynasty…all these teams relied heavily on on-base percentage and power, a common characteristic of what is commonly refered to as Moneyball.

But the true definion of a Moneyball team as defined in the Michael Lewis’s book, I would say, is a team looking to add players with undervalued abilities that you can measure. It’s not just about stats, it’s more about quantitative objective analysis. And the best tool we have for objective analysis is statistics.

The reason Billy Beane and many other “Moneyball” teams rely more on stats than on scouts is because you can’t quantify what scouts look at, it’s subjective. That’s not to say scouts aren’t useful and valuable, but stats are a more objective measure of a player’s abilily.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

Shaun P-Another point and then I will drop it and go eat. I only used the Red Sox as an example because I was referring to a previous post. Hoever, I would say that the Sox recent success has as much to do with Papi’s and Ramirez’s power numbers as anyone else’ OBP. They have boomers knocking them in. That is the difference. That and playing in that mini ballpark. Also, I used Crisp as an example because everyone has been so hot and bothered about trading him for Andruw. Thank you for supporting my claim. Crisp isn’t that big a help.

By journalist jimmy smith

August 9, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

baby seal is well and visiting relatives. baby seal is expected back for the milwaukee series - journalist has already purchased tickets. hartebeest, on the other hand has found a new home with lew. hartebeest has a talent for drawing that was previously undiscovered. lew will find hartebeest to be a fine companion but a costly one to feed.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

Jimmy - Thanks for clarying the lunch dilemma, however she chose 3 items: ham, cheese, pickles and Triscuits. No crow. And no humanity. The lunch was apparently not offensive, although it did require an effective pitch. Unfortunately, pie did not make a plate appearance. Also, my daughter quickly slugged back her CapriSun; when I told her she was out, she argued. As much as it hurt, I had to toss her for arguing. I’m sure I’ll feel the repercussions from the head of the union…

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

on-base pct. and correlation

No one tried to correlate on-base percentage and winning, that’s just the way it is. No one goes into it saying, “now I’m going to try to prove a correlation between on-base percentage and winning.” Didn’t you ever take science in school? They looked at winning and looked at all the stats and found that the rate/percentage stat with the strongest correlation to winning is on-base percentage.

And Billy Beane is not the first person to recognize the importance of on-base percentage. Branch Rickey was fond of on-base percentage as a measure of productivity. And there were even people before him who recognized the importance of on-base percentage. (See Numbers Game by Alan Schwarz.) Also Billy Beane didn’t write Moneyball, that was Michael Lewis.

And of course on-base percentage is not the only way to win, it just has the strongest correlation to winning out of all single percentage and rate stats. I’m sure there is also a strong correlation between on-base percentage allowed and winning. Just like I’m sure there is a strong correlation between field-goal percentage and winning basketball games. That doesn’t mean field-goal percentage is all that matters.

It’s doesn’t seem like there’s much of a disagreement here, except maybe you are slightly underrating on-base percentage. Maybe you’re not.

By DonCoburleone

August 9, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Take the over in this game today. I predict a 9-6 Braves loss in this one… Chuck James truly does look like the lefthanded Kyle Davies - inconsistent with a #3 starter talent-ceiling. But if he can stay healthy, it will make him more valuable to the Braves in the long run. If he turns out to have a “rubber arm” he could be a solid 4th or 5th starter for the next few years. But like I said, lets just hope he doesn’t turn out to be a Davies or HoRam when it comes to injuries…. Hudson with a solid “smoke and mirrors” outing last night. Hudson, YOU SUCK!

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

ShaunP - Allow me to repeat an earlier post:

Baseball’s best team record today belongs to the Detroit Tigers at 76-37. The closest team to them are the Mets at 67-44. Detroit is clearly having a special season, yet they are 17th overall in team OBP. They are also 7th in runs scored and 8th in RBI. Detroit is, however, 1st in ERA at 3.68.

Which stat has the strongest correlation?

By Sam

August 9, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

It’s not just about OBP but OPS (OBP plus Slugging Pct) comes pretty darn close. Saying, “well, Billy Beane’s A’s don’t win every year” is just silly. Seen their budget? The point is that using their system they are able to at least make the postseason DESPITE the budget. Now, take a team with a big budget and add moneyball tactics and you get…The 2004 Red Sox. And, by the way, moneyball is not about eliminating your scouting department. It’s about not drafting or signing guys because they have “athletic” bodies and “look” like “5-tool” players. Beane knows of what he speaks since he, too, was a “can’t miss” prospect with the “look” of a great player. He flopped and that experience is what sold him on the moneyball approach once he became aware of it. It’s not scouting vs. stats, it’s using stats when you can to get an edge because signing the same kind of player everybody else wants will ALWAYS be a losing game if you have less money.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

The Red Sox and “Moneyball”

Lew is right, the Red Sox’s success does have to do with power. Power is important, but on-base percentage is almost 1.5 to 2 times as important. An extra-base hit is more valuable to scoring runs than a single or a walk. That’s why it was realized long ago that on-base and slugging percentage are the best measures of offensive performance and many overrate batting average and many other stats.

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

Let’s take a pole: Those in favor of permanently banning the word ‘suck’ from the blog please signify so by raising your hand.

The measure passes by overwhelming majority. Let it be recorded into the minutes and is effective immediately.

Meeting adjourned.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

Did I mention that Detroit is the only major league team with its team ERA (3.68) below 4.00?

By TennesseePaul

August 9, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

I miss being able to get on here as frequently as in the past. Some of these conversations are great.

I keep reading these comments about how wonderful Jason Schmidt is and I just don’t get it. He certainly benefits from the ESPN hype. Probably because he is on a team with Bonds (coat-tail factor). But I think it is safe to say that the Braves lost nothing when they traded him. Nothing. He has had only 3 good years. His career has been riddled with injury. And his 3 good seasons came after 9 years. 9 years in the majors. 9 (nine). That’s the majority of our winning streak. And on top of that, with the market for pitching that was last off-season, he will be/is massively over priced (which goes along with the hype, I suppose). He isn’t worth it.
If it’s a pitcher with “stuff” people want, we have them. They just need to mature a bit, which I think they are this season. Plus we have Hudson. He has “stuff”. He showed some of it last night. He keeps it bottled up now like a fine wine; only breaks it out with the china for a once a month engagement.

If only Hudson could have pitched like that the whole season. We wouldn’t be in this hole right now. We need him for the final two months if this is going to happen. We need him, Smoltz, and James to turn it up. James shows flashes. He’ll have that no-hitter going for up to 5 innings, then fall apart. Though that last game was one of those where I question the scoring. I go back and forth between the inherited runners scored and to who’s ERA they should be tacked on. (Another example: Every inherited runner Kolb let score, I was hoping they’d muliply by the number of wasted opportunities he’d caused and add them to his line).

By DonCoburleone

August 9, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Who cares about Billy Beane? He is the single most overrated sports executive of ALL TIME! I mean, how many WS titles does he have? In fact, how many PLAYOFF SERIES has he won? 0!

By Snowball's Chance

August 9, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

Nathan, Nice link. When the Yankees were winning three straight championships in a row they worked over opposing pitchers by getting on base any way they could. If Glavine or Maddux were away, away they would reach out and go the other way. They made the game look easy.

By KC

August 9, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone

YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!!

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

Here’s a poll on poles:

Do you prefer the north or south?

CL - ;)

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Voice of Reason,

You should change your name. You just gave an example of one team in one year. If you look at all the teams throughout baseball history, winning and on-base percentage have a stronger correlation than winning and other percentage/rate stats. I’m sure run differential tells us more about a team than on-base percentage, but you score runs by getting on base and you prevent runs by keeping hitters off base.

Yes, Detroit is winning because they’ve allowed the fewest runs and because there offense is pretty good, certainly good enough for their pitching.

You failed to mention that Detroit ranks 9th in homers and 5th in slugging percentage. As I said in my previous post, power is also important and power is the reason the Tigers’ offense is good.

You also failed to mention that Detroit’s pitching staff is tied for 1st in lowest on-base percentage allowed and is 1st in lowest slugging percentage allowed.

By KC

August 9, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

DonCobuleone:

For some reason, my last post submitted itself before I had a chance to finish.

You are so right! Tim Hudson’s “smoke and mirrors” start last night must have been a fluke. I mean, it’s not like he has 7 years of excellence on his resume. 7 bad weeks is plenty of reason to throw out the pervious 7 years. Or maybe he’s just washed up. After all he did just turn 30… must be over the hill.

Yup, it makes perfect sense. Tim Hudson sucks.

And I admire your ability to determine the ceiling of young pitchers before they’ve ever even had the chance to establish themselves at the major league level (“Chuck James truly does look like the left-handed Kyle Davies - inconsistent with a #3 starter talent-ceiling”). The Braves should hire you to tell them what everyone’s ceiling is before they ever call them up. That way they could save a fortune on what is largely considered one of the best scouting staffs in baseball. All they would need is you Don!

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

10Paul - You think James’ tendency to “have that no-hitter going for up to 5 innings, then fall apart” has anything to do with him being a 24 year old kid with 16 total ML appearances? As much as I cringe at the constant Glavine/James comparisons, Glav was 9-21 with a composite 5.05 ERA over his first 2 ML seasons.

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

ok, I’m back from lunch, and totally ready to fritter away another supposedly productive afternoon! What say we start a new thread, instead of sabers, stats, and three-letter acronyms? Who’s got a perfectly absurd trade that the rest of us can all deride unmercifully at the low cost of your personal self-esteem? Anybody? Anybody?

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

Detroit’s pitching staff is tied for 1st in lowest on-base percentage allowed and is 1st in lowest slugging percentage allowed. If that’s not on-base percentage correlating with winning, I don’t know what is.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

Shaun P- I think my biggest point in this now two day irreducible argument, is that using OBP as the major factor in evaluating talent, a la Billy Beane, is not the way to go and is really a lousy way to do it. As far as taking science-yes, I did. But I am a portrait painter, and aside from geometry and arithmetic, I have little use for it. Besides, I flunked physics and chemistry-what do you expect, anyway. Ain’t it amazing that you can go through a Masters and not have to take anything more than geology?

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

Shaun Pain - You should keep your name. I realize I gave an example of one team in one year because the only point I was trying to make is that Detroit is ranked 17th in OPB this year. You mistakenly think I was giving your book generated statistics course more creedence than it is due. Good teams win baseball games and playoff series. Numbers can be manipulated to suit any agenda. I personally could not care less how you argue your points with any person on this blog, but don’t sully my well earned name in the process.

By KC

August 9, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

Thank you VOR!

I get fed up with all the (irrational) negativity expressed in these blog posts sometimes. Guys like Chuck James and Kyle Davies have yet to make 30 major league starts in their young careers, and people are talking about how they can’t pitch far into their starts… or that they only have a “3rd starter” ceiling. THEY’RE JUST KIDS, FOR CRYIN’ OUT %@^#^$@#$^#% LOUD!!!!!!!!

Go back and take a look at the stats for the first year or two of many great pitchers, including Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz.

By Robert

August 9, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this

“Who cares about Billy Beane? He is the single most overrated sports executive of ALL TIME!”

As opposed to Bobby Cox, who is, hooves down, the most overrated manager of all time

There’s a donkey in the dugout

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

VOR, :-)))

KC already has 2 demerits.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this

People-This debate has raged way too long. However, one stat no one has mentioned is How many times did the team with the higher OBP NOT win? I think the answer would be a lot more than you think and probably a lot more often than not. Stats can prove anything you want them to and not showing the flip side of the coin will always help your point of view. Let’s hear what the flipside is.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

Oh, crap… the Braves are playing NOW on TBS. Day game… I forgot. Red uni’s on a day other than Sunday?

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

Lew,

I agree strongly that ignoring other stats except on-base percentage is just plain dumb, and I think even Billy Beane would agree. That said, getting hitters on base is essential to scoring runs and preventing baserunners is essential to preventing runs. You can’t really seperate baserunners and run scoring. That has to be the major principal of a team in player acquistions. Whether it’s acquiring hitters who get on base, pitchers who keep hitters off base, or defensive players who keep hitters off base by making outs with their gloves. The name of the game is run scoring and run prevention and there are several ways to go about trying to score more runs than your opponent.

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

punish him, Carolina Lady, punish him!…and could I borrow the videotape later?

By KC

August 9, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady:

2 demerits??

By DonCoburleone

August 9, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

And “Moneyball” is such a horrible term for what the A’s do. The Yankees play “moneyball”, just throw money at whatever weakness’s you have. The A’s style of constructing a team should be called “Value Ball”.

By MEB

August 9, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

According to Ebby Calvin LaLooche… “This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.” Think about that for a while.

After thinking on this for a while I’ve come to a conclusion: Throw, catch, and hit better than the other team and you will do well, except when it rains.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

Hey, Shaun - That was a much more civil way of making your point with Lew than it was with me. No reason for name calling… I apologize for the pain remark.

By KC

August 9, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady:

2 demerits??

By Lew

August 9, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

ShaunP- I made a suggestion yesterday for a better stat and you also mentioned it yourself a while back. Runs scored plus RBI minus HR-a players run production quotient, so to speak. I think this is a much more accurate representation of a player’s contribution. It takes all the important aspects into account, and subtracting the HR’s makes it relevant for little ballers or power hitters. On a different subject, not expressing an opinion, but just an observation. Did anyone see that the Comeback Player of the Year is now “The VIAGRA Comeback Player of the Year”? The humanity! The crass commercialization of baseball. Didn’t Viagra learn their lesson with Rafael Palmiero?

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

Throw, catch, and hit better than the other team for 5 full innings and you will do well, even when it rains.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Shaun Pain - You should keep your name. I realize I gave an example of one team in one year because the only point I was trying to make is that Detroit is ranked 17th in OPB this year. You mistakenly think I was giving your book generated statistics course more creedence than it is due. Good teams win baseball games and playoff series. Numbers can be manipulated to suit any agenda. I personally could not care less how you argue your points with any person on this blog, but don’t sully my well earned name in the process.

As I said before, people don’t go into questions about player/team performance trying to prove that any particular stat and winning correlate. People never looked to prove on-base and winning correlate, that’s just the way it is. The numbers aren’t manipulated to make it true, it just is.

Good teams don’t necessarily win games or playoff series. Good teams will usually win over the course of 162 games, but luck plays a big role in a short series.

I agree strongly that ignoring other stats except on-base percentage is just plain dumb, and I think even Billy Beane would agree. That said, getting hitters on base is essential to scoring runs and preventing baserunners is essential to preventing runs. You can’t really seperate baserunners and run scoring. That has to be the major principal of a team in player acquistions. Whether it’s acquiring hitters who get on base, pitchers who keep hitters off base, or defensive players who keep hitters off base by making outs with their gloves. The name of the game is run scoring and run prevention and there are several ways to go about trying to score more runs than your opponent.

By Rodger

August 9, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

Shaun, Usually VOR is often the ONLY voice of reason. Usually has stats to back him up. And not over the top emotional.

By Lew

August 9, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

MEB-Thank you- No one can make it clearer or more to the point.

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

Isn’t Viagra a “performance enhancing” drug?

By TennesseePaul

August 9, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

VOR: For sure it does. But he is still starting off better than Jason Schmidt. Which is yet another reason I don’t understand why the praises for Schmidt are piled high and the disdain for James is equally high. Schmidt was bad for 9 years. James is in the majors for under 1 season, performing better than Schmidt did in that time frame and yet is written off as nothing more than a 3rd starter.

But I would have to agree with those saying OBP is important. It’s very important in baseball. Run Differentials are a good measuring post of what a team is doing and the strength of their effort. For instance, a team with a negative differential but high in the standings, doesn’t have much of a chance of keeping their spot in the standing. Where as OBP is a way of looking at what the team is capable of doing. So, if the team OBP is high, they have more potential to score runs, and therefore are more likely to hold on to their standings, or turn around losing streaks.
But, it is baseball. Anything can happen. All stats should be taken with a grain of salt and a good scouting report.

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

Lew,

The problem with runs and RBI is they depend on the other hitters in the lineup in front and behind and particular player. There are hitters that have had below average years, but have driven in 100 runs (see Baseball Between the Numbers). How often a player gets on base and his power are the best ways to evaluate a player’s run production.

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

you’re right, Rodger, and when I see even VOR get testy, I know THAT conversation has been left in an inning too long!

By journalist jimmy smith

August 9, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

stubborn as baby seal …

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

KC, it’s right there: “Tim Hudson sucks.” For shame, KC! 2 demerits.

Scoots, :-)))

If I don’t get back to work, Lew, Jimmy, and Grinch are never going to get their birdhouses! :-)))

Why are the Braves wearing their Sunday best on Wednesday??? Who didn’t do the laundry?

By KC

August 9, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady,

If you read the post more carefully, I think you will find that I was speaking facetiously in that post. I think Tim Hudson is a great pitcher who has had a really rough stretch. I will admit that over the past couple of months, I began to wonder if he was even the same pitcher, but I have been (and remain) a Huddy supporter.

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

KC, refer back to my 1:04 post. :-))

By MEB

August 9, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Voice of Reason… very important observation. I think Chuckie James needs someone to increase their slugging numbers just a pinch and then let the rains come.

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

KC, you misapprehend…your demerits come as a result of your use of the s-word, not your opinion of Hudson. CL has requested a banishment of the s-word from the blog, and righteously condemns you, CONDEMNS YOU, I say, for your non-compliance! LOL

By KC

August 9, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

Ooooh… sorry. I don’t have a problem with that word personally, but certainly don’t mean to offend.

Hey wait a minute!!!!… You used the word suck in your 1:58 post. Yup, there it is, plain as day!!!

LOL! Just pickin’ on ya.

By Alex

August 9, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

First, I didn’t say that when healthy, Chipper Jones is done. He still has it…what it takes to be a great player, especially in the clutch. However, look at the past 2 seasons! He’s cost the Braves games by not playing, by being on the DL. The Braves are paying him what..10-12 million per year? I’m not sure on that number, but it is probably close enough.

What is Wilson Betemit making? the MLB minimum?! You want money to sing Andrew Jones to another 5-7 year deal? Trade Chipper Jones…of course too late now b/c you don’t have another 3B. I don’t think Aybar will play 3B everyday, although that’s the need right now for this team.

See, your logic is flawed…giving me stats like OBP…and K’s. It’s RBI’s, AVE. and HR plus playing good defense that count.

Plus, Chipper is a proven all star caliber player, Wilson hasn’t been given the chance to play everyday for a full season yet. I’ve been saying this…wait till next season…when Chipper is on the DL again…and Wilson is having a good, solid year at 3B for the LA Dodgers.

By DonCoburleone

August 9, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

Just wait KC, my words will prove true over time… Plus, I doubt Glavine, Smoltz, and Maddux spent even HALF the amount of time on the DL as Davies and HoRam have in their first few seasons. These guys are as fragile as fine china… And how old was Glavine in his first 2 years in the league? 22 and 23 probably? Sure as hell not 25 like Chuck James! James and Davies #3 starters AT BEST! Write it down, take a picture, I don’t give a f*!

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

Scoots, it was an overwhelming vote FOR banishment on the (overused) word! Didn’t you see all the raised hands??

By The Grinch

August 9, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Blah!, Slept too late again, and now I got to hurry off and catch up on my work. Just wanted to say from a football perspective, KC, that a solid defense is ABSOLUTELY essential to having a winning team, especially in the playoffs. Teams that win with shoddy defense and mind-boggling offense are the exception rather than the rule, while the opposite is not the case. Your cross-analogy holds. Later, all!

By ncscoots

August 9, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

CL, alas, no, I did not see all the raised hands. My gaze was averted at the sheer spellbinding power your mere suggestions have over the blog.

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

KC, just havin’ fun! :-))

Supposed to be at the other desk working…

By Voice of Reason

August 9, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

Shaun - I’ll bet you’re a younger guy who has come along in an era when stats and highlights are much more accessible. I, on the other hand, started with these here Braves when I had to rely on Milo Hamilton for the bulk of my info. That was when Lum Harris was manager, when Hammerin’ Hank played 1B and Mike Lum (the Happy Hawaiian) played OF, when Marty Perez was SS, when 2 Aarons (Hank & Tommie) were on the roster. That was still 2 years before Dusty Baker patrolled the same OF with Hank, and Davey Johnston left his spike marks around 2B. The point I’m making is that being from different eras of baseball can immensly impact one’s views on stats and numbers vs. game by game performance. When it comes right down to it, I’m a “Just win, Baby.” kinda guy. I honestly don’t care if it’s 11-9 or 1-0. Just win… That’s no cut on you or any younger baseball fan. Just an observation…

By David O'Brien

August 9, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

Alex, stop the fantasy baseball. Chipper Jones isn’t going to be traded. Tired subject.

There’s a new blog posted, just FYI

By Carolina Lady

August 9, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

Scoots, you have indeed kissed the Blarney Stone! :-))

By Antonio McNugget

August 9, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

Hey VOR.

Here is a purple jelly bean. you deserve it.

By MEB

August 9, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

Hey, what is the red shirt rule? I thought the Braves used the new jerseys for Sunday day games, kinda like their Sunday best. I went to a day game back on 27 July against the Marlins and the Braves wore white.

Whatever, I am glad I’m not broiling out there today like I did back in July.

VOR… Andruw just increased his slugging percentage so let the rains come.

By DonCoburleone

August 9, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

89 pitches for James in 5 innings, hope the bullpen is up for this one…

By LISTENING

August 9, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

CAROLINA LADY-Your pole should be withdrawn in favor of a poll.

By Bravedav

August 9, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

Wow. Still in the 7th - our bullpen STINKS!

By Reid Whitaker

August 9, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Cox blows another. First he leaves in Yates to put 4 runners on, then while he still has a chance to get out of the inning with the lead, by going ahead and bringing in Wickman, he brings in McBride to blow the game. Cox’s mentality will not allow him to bring in Wickman unless its the 9th inning. No sense of ungency. No sense of URGENCY.

By Tony C.

August 9, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

You know, I have been a fan since back when Bob Horner wasn’t hurt. The single most painful thing to watch (even more than Dale in a Phillies uni) is Ol’ Bobby leave a guy in too long. I’m so over it. I got back from lunch with us up 3-1…by the time I got the game-tracker fired up Bobby had left yates in to walk bases loaded, I mean after the 7th straight pitch was a ball, shouldn’t somebody gone and talked to Yates, maybe just to calm him down???? Nope, Bobby waited until he was sure that the runs had scored.

It’s the one thing I would change about the Bobby Cox Era.

By Tom

August 9, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

The 7th….probably the worst inning I have EVER seen!

By Overlord

August 9, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

i have seen the braves struggle…….but i have never ever seen this team in 15 years play this bad…..no wait……..they have not played nowhere close to this bad. Season is over………even if 8 chippers play everyday and 10 john smoltz get signed by the braves….. this is just bad plain bad baseball, what a way to fall from greatness, there r no words to explain what a lack of interest from somewhere, front office or something, but i cant believe there is no way to fix the worst pitching staff in NL, it is always easy to get a little better.

BAD BAD BAD BAD

By the way, i dont see roger mcdowell making any kind of positve impact in any pitcher, i have not seen a single pitcher this season get any improvement at any point in the season, they have all pitched bad and stayed bad or become worse.

By Casey

August 9, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

As I’m sitting here watching the Braves bullpen allow 8 runs in the 7th right after the Braves took a 3-1 lead… I marvel at how the players can actually stay on the field. I’m sitting here about to throw my remote through the TV (good thing I have restraint, I would’ve broken a lot of TV’s this year). I would’ve probably thrown my glove in the air and walked off… saying fine me if you want!… please trade me! What’s the point of even going up to bat anymore?? I’ll be glad when this sorry excuse of a season is over!

By Overlord

August 9, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

hey tony c. your comment is as accurate as it could be. I have sen the braves lose more than 50% of their games in this 15 years because of what u just said. Thats a fact………im happy u just mentioned.

By Overlord

August 9, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Hey Casey…… what do u mean you will be happy?………SEASON IS ALREADY OVER. It was over right after the MUTS swept us. At that very moment. We r just diggin the hole deeper in order to leave no doubts that we suck……

By Shaun Payne

August 9, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Shaun - I’ll bet you’re a younger guy who has come along in an era when stats and highlights are much more accessible. I, on the other hand, started with these here Braves when I had to rely on Milo Hamilton for the bulk of my info. That was when Lum Harris was manager, when Hammerin’ Hank played 1B and Mike Lum (the Happy Hawaiian) played OF, when Marty Perez was SS, when 2 Aarons (Hank & Tommie) were on the roster. That was still 2 years before Dusty Baker patrolled the same OF with Hank, and Davey Johnston left his spike marks around 2B. The point I’m making is that being from different eras of baseball can immensly impact one’s views on stats and numbers vs. game by game performance. When it comes right down to it, I’m a “Just win, Baby.” kinda guy. I honestly don’t care if it’s 11-9 or 1-0. Just win… That’s no cut on you or any younger baseball fan. Just an observation…

VOR,

I understand completely what you are saying. I am 28 and I do read a lot of statistical books. I’m not really a numbers or a math person, but after reading plenty of books/articles on baseball stats over the past roughly 10 years, I realize that stats are a brilliant tool if you know what you’re doing.

I’ve learned more from reading books on stats than from playing the game. I played baseball from the time I was 7 all through high school. I wish I would have known some of the things I’ve learned from reading books on stats because I would have been a much better player.

By nathan

August 9, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

This team is so “pick your poison” as far as what “area” of the team is going to let us down on a nightly basis.

Just when you think Tim Hudson is DONE, he pitches 7 nice innings, I’d say great innings, but he was saved by some GREAT defense.

Just when you think Chuck James is not going to ammount to anything more than an average #3 or #4 guy, he gives you 6 good innings.

Oh, but here is where the fun begins! Just when you think we’ve found something that resembles a reliable bullpen, THEY COMPLETELY IMPLODE! I honestly thought Yates would be a nice addition for all of next year. He still might be, but good lord!

So now it doesn’t become a question on a daily basis IF the Braves are going to lose, it’s a matter of HOW they are going to lose. Starting Pitching, Bullpen, Bobby’s Brain, Lack of Patience at the plate. What’s next? John Smoltz struck by lightening on the mound?

Wild Card? Are you kidding me. The goal for this year should be to find out what we’ve got in the system. Don’t wait for September 1st. Do it NOW! And by all means neccessary, finish strong, somehow avoid last place in the East. That’s not even looking possible with how inconsistant this team is.

I guess that’s what mediocre to below average teams do to their fans? Show glimpses of hope, but right when you think it’s taking a turn for the better, they find another way to lose.

Can’t wait for 2007……I think?

By Dee

August 9, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

Chipper needs to concentrate on getting back into the line up and hitting himself. He does not need to give advice to Marcus Giles about hitting!!

By Eric C.

August 9, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

The Braves pitching staff sucks!! Having said that…I’ve always blown off Mazonne’s departure as having little to no effect on the pitching staff…but am starting to reconsider that today. I know he’s not walking on water in Baltimore, but that little bit of positive influence the Braves lost when Mazonne left surely has cost a few games this year.

By james

August 9, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

BOYCOTT THE BRAVES….. …..GO DAWGS…………..

By Art

August 9, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Well after today’s horrible display of pitching that gave the Phils 8 runs maybe it is time to drop Tyler Yates and Chad Paronto and bring up Matt Wright, Anthony Lerew and Kevin Barry with one of the 3 taking Horacio Ramirez place. The Braves cannot do any worse and with that pitching it does not look good for the final 50 or so games of the year.

By KC

August 9, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Next year folks… next year.

By Casey

August 9, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

The great thing about sports, is there is always “next year”!

By KC

August 9, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

I think the injury to HoRam is the straw that broke the Camel’s back. Braves fans, it’s time to start thinking about next year. That said, I don’t think there’s any need to get overly negative about this year. It was a season when almost nothing went right, and nearly everything went wrong, especially with our pitching.

THE BULLPEN:

It began in the off-season. JS tried numerous avenues to bring in a closer, but nothing worked out. Then Blaine Boyer and John Foster (two important cogs in last years pen) both wound up being lost for the season before it ever began. Then several things that could have gone either way (Reitsma, and young kids in the bullpen) all went completely south. Then, other teams were slow to pull the trigger on anything, and we couldn’t swing the deals we needed until they were too late.

THE ROTATION:

First, we lost Hampton for the season. Then Hudson, for reasons no one can explain, has the worst season of his career. Jorge Sosa went from a very productive starter for us last year to a batting practice pitcher. John Thompson imploded and then got injured. Horacio Ramirez went on the DL twice (this being the second time, and he’ll be gone the rest of the season). Kyle Davies after a torrid spring, struggles and then goes on the DL.

Then as soon as the offense and the Braves as a whole went on a tear, both the Jones’ get hurt, with Chipper having to go on the DL. Really… pretty much everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. Health, underperformance, bad luck… a perfect storm.

Mama said there’d be seasons like this. Chalk it up misfortune, misaligned stars, or whatever you please… but it just wasn’t our year. But everyone keep your head up! There’s a lot to look forward to next season I believe

By Head Coach

August 9, 2006 06:56 PM | Link to this

Nice to see even David O’Brian has seen the light. David , I tried to tell you this team was done at the end of May. There should have been a fire sale right before the July 31st trading deadline , instead Schuerholz is going to put all his eggs in one basket for 2007. June 4th was the last time they were above .500 , sadly this team will finish with a losing record for the first time since 1990. At least football season is coming ! Go Falcons !

By Rick Roberts

August 9, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this

Maybe we Braves fans are spoiled, but we aren’t naive. Management, including Bobby, has done a terrible job of putting this team together and have been inept at addressing the obvious problems. Complacency? Afraid to make moves? Other teams have made moves, but not John. What gives? If management doesn’t make a major overhaul this off season, then they deserve what they get and we fans pay the price. Time to move Andrew, Marcus, Tim, and let many others go. Also, we cannot afford Chipper—cannot plan on him to play with his injuries all the time—takes an additional roster space just to back him up. Trade him to the Rangers. Bring Wickman back and keep Baez. The BP should otherwise be dismantled. Blaine could help next year; McBride goes down; and in trades, get all the BP help possible. As for Smoltz, he deserves to be traded to Detroit and given a chance to go to the Series—would be a great story. The Braves are now rebuilding and will be several years away from being strongly competitive. We do have a great minor league system although many are 2-3 years away. John and Bobby have been too protective of their favorite pet players. That’s been a major problem for years, anyway.

By Savannah Guy

August 9, 2006 10:49 PM | Link to this

DOB and Nathan have it pretty much pegged. Sad but true, hard but fair. It’s over this year so relax and just enjoy the baseball…and walk the dog a little more often. The pitching injuries alone would doom ANY team. On top of that, we have young guns that should not even be in the majors yet. We’ve never had more misfortune than the injuries this year. So, miss a few games, get your blood pressure down a little. Quit ranting and get a life.

Next year? Nope…not gonna happen……unless the Braves give Cox a really good job upstairs (he deserves all he can get), JS gets a job elsewhere (he deserves a big hand for so many winning teams), and some actual HUMAN BEING or small group of Braves fans become owners…not another media empire that couldn’t give a s__t about building (and paying for) a winning franchise.

There’s always soccer….no.

By robdawg06

August 11, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

DOB, you won’t admit I was right about starting Matt Diaz and it was a bad trade to trade Betemit. I said these things before they came true. One person wanted to know about LF and I said play Matt Diaz. The very next day he wins the game offensively. I’ve said from my very first post here in June that the Braves needed a closer with a proven track record. They went out and got one in Bob Wickman. Its just hilarious to me to see your blogs criticize a part of the team then the very next day that part wins games. Why can’t you start a blog titled “What would you do as GM” ? Or a blog about some inside personal information on the players that we don’t already know. Like their hobbies or other sports they play. I read the AJC,Yahoo sports,watch ESPN,and listen to ESPN radio every day so I’m UP on the happenings of scores,trades,and gee whiz news. I expect a little more unknown information from reporters living in Atlanta that go inside the clubhouse and have access to the players after games at will.

By robdawg06

August 11, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

How hard is it to come up with blogs like “Braves are done this season”, or “Giles on fire now”,and “Chipper’s injury hurts the offense” ? My 7 year-old kid can make those blogs. Impress me DOB. Start a witty blog.

By robdawg06

August 11, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

Hey Don, are you sure you aren’t Don Knotts ? I thought he was dead ? You don’t wanna argue sports with me dude because I’m a walking sports (Baseball & Football) encyclopedia. I collect sportscards and I have player’s stats and teams memorized since the late 1980’s. Many of us fans know exactly how to fix team’s problems but were not the one person selected for that job. You can’t discount or dismiss opinions. I was sitting in the stand (against Houston when Beltran hit 2 homeruns in the playoffs) screaming for Bobby to have Reitsma walk Carlos Beltran. Then bang, homerun game outta reach & game over. Managing baseball is not rocket science. Its being a lifelong player that stays associated with the game then waiting for opportunity to knock. If you want to compare intelligence, did you know that Tony LaRussa (Cardinals mgr.) has a law degree ? What degree does Bobby Cox have ? Hard knocks ?