AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2006 > August > 06 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USThe last word (please) on Andruw
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
So I’ve been up in the Canadian Rockies a few days, out of cell-phone range (or Verizon Broadband laptop communications range). Anything happen?
Kidding, folks. (We who either cover or pull for the Braves still can smile, joke and discuss matters with something other than grave tones, right? Good).
Anyway, back to the fine denizens of the blogosphere. Scanning the weekend’s posts, it appears some of you have either pawned your computers or turned attention to college football or the Falcons.
For those still out there, it’s good to be back. Hopefully you’re just dormant and will return in force for these final seven weeks of ‘ball before the postseason (hey, I didn’t say Braves postseason).
By the way, I saw one of the greatest concerts of my life last week _ Tom Waits at the Tabernacle. Phenomenal in every sense (but we’ll avoid music today, because of the noted music-hater who’s a regular here and said last week he has his reasons to hate music and comes here to get away from it. Pity the person who hates music, but whatever. We’ll give it a rest _ for today, at least).
Anyway, I’d known Andruw Waivergate was going to be blown out of proportion into the biggest headline-making matter since Smoltz Asked To Be Traded To Detroit (wink), I’d have scheduled to work this road trip and took a different one off.
That, plus I missed the discussion of banana pudding. (People, you can’t be serious if you don’t line it with ‘Nilla wavers and serve it warm, with merinque on top, just like my momma did)
But understand, I’ve got to pick about 20 games out of 81 road games to miss each year, and Pittsburgh and Cincinnati in August are always going to be high on my list of NL cities to avoid if at all possible.
So anyway, what did I think of Andruw and waivers? As I offered in one post early in the week _ before the thing was stoked into such a perfect storm that I opted to stay out until it diminished _ this simply was not a major story. At least not nearly as huge as some made it out to be.
As has been pointed out by everyone savvy in these matters, most players, including star players, have been put on waivers and cleared waivers more than once in their careers. That includes, yes, Chipper and Smoltz.
The thing that made Andruw’s case different and newsworthy was the confluence of the waivers filing coming two weeks before Andruw gets his 10/5 status and ability to veto trades, and its coming on the heels of last week’s Red Sox trade “talks” _ which, as pointed out several times here, were initiated by Boston’s Theo Eptstein, and involved one phone call to John Schuerholz, who ran down the king’s ransom that it would take to get Andruw. End of that call.
The Braves’ only mistake, in my view, was not calling Andruw when this firestorm spread, when he was clearly peeved. The Braves’ front office (Schuerholz) can be stubborn and set in its ways, perhaps a byproduct of 14 consecutive division titles and operating under a cloak of secrecy on all matters.
I don’t fault them, usually, for that approach. But in this case, as Andruw said, make a call to the man. It seems like it just would’ve made good sense.
Call your perennial Gold Glove center fielder _ ask him to please keep the phone call’s contents private, if you must _ and explain to him that waivers are supposed to confidential, and that it has little to do with their desire to move him and instead is a business decision designed to cover their butts just in case there’s somebody desperate out there ready to fork over that king’s ransom _ or more _ that Schuerholz told the Red Sox it would take to get Andruw.
Before some knee-jerk reactionaries howl about what I just said, and twist that into a Braves-dissed-Andruw-and-I’m-drinking-the-Kool Aid stance, let me ask: Would it make much sense for the Braves to simply say, we love Andruw too much to ask waivers on him?
Then what if the Red Sox became desperate after, say, a season-ending injury to Manny Ramirez this week? What if they called the Braves back and said, “We’ll not only give you all you asked for last week in exchange for Andruw Jones _ top 22-year-old lefty starter Jon Lester (no longer merely a prospect, by the way, but a good young pitcher in the major league rotation), plus Coco Crisp and 22-year-old rookie reliever Craig Hansen _ we’ll also throw in (fill in the blank with two other top prospects)?”
Because the Red Sox suddenly might do that, if they needed a big bat to replace Manny (don’t ask me what they’d do in LF; this is just hypothetical, OK?).
Anyway, what if that happened? If Andruw hadn’t been through waivers, the Braves would have to tell Epstein, “We’d like to do it, but first we’ll have to try to put Andruw through waivers.” Now, given the New York Yankees’ fiscal position and disdain for rival Boston, do you not think they’d put in a claim to block Andruw from going to Boston after figuring they might try to get him to replace Manny?
Yes, they would. And then if the Yankees didn’t want to make a deal, they could offer nothing of value for Andruw and the Braves could do nothing but pull him back off waivers and not trade him to the Sox or anyone else this season.
Was that likely to happen? No, but it certainly could have.
Manny could get hurt, or Johnny Damon, Vlad Guerrero … any free-spending contender could have a major injury to a key run produceer and get desperate this week _ before Andruw is a 10/5 player _ and be ready to offer far more than they would under normal circumstances in order to get a replacement. Andruw, perhaps, if he’d gotten through waivers.
I should point out, that Red Sox trade proposal wouldn’t happen in August, at least involving Lester, Hansen and Crisp, because all of those guys would be claimed on waivers, certainly the young pitchers would be claimed immediately, without question.
The only reasonable hypothetical involving Andruw being dealt after July 31 would’ve involved another player from another team with a huge salary, perhaps with that team picking up some of that other player’s salary, etc. Something unusual like that. Again, the team would have to be desperate and see Andruw as the perfect guy to fill a huge void immediately.
But it doesn’t matter now, because Andruw was pulled back from waivers. So he’s not going to be traded the rest of the season, and in the future if he’s traded at all, he’ll have to approve the deal now, because he’ll be a 10/5 guy on Aug. 15.
Still, I hope I’ve made my point: The Braves wouldn’t have been very savvy if they hadn’t performed the simple step of seeing if they could get him through waivers. If for no other reason than to get a better idea of just how much interest there might be in him should they decide to trade him later.
There was nothing to lose, except potential harm in their relationship with Andruw, which they could have avoided by simply telling him what was going on, especially after word of his being put on waivers was leaked and he voiced his displeasure.
Then, it wouldn’t have mattered if the story was overblown in the media and fans were stirred into a frenzy, because ultimately all that mattered was/is Jones’ relationshp with the team when it comes time to try and re-sign him.
Judging from Andruw’s comment Saturday, about it being no big deal in the end because he wasn’t traded, tells me that he probably won’t hold it against them. He’s not that type of guy, and he does love playing in Atlanta for Bobby Cox.
And Scott Boras doesn’t seem to have quite the same influence on Andruw that he has on most of his other clients, as Andruw demonstrated when he worked out his last contract with his dad’s assistance, rather than Boras driving it as high as it could possibly go with the Braves.
Which brings me to one other important matter: Do the Braves plan to re-sign Andruw?
Though some of you might believe otherwise, the Braves will try to retain him, barring an unexpected development such as a huge payroll slashing by new ownership if and when that group takes over.
But the Braves simply don’t know yet what Andruw’s going to ask for, and where the market is going to go. That’s just the way it is. The unanswerable question, at this stage of the game.
We’re going to have to wait, if not until next year, then at least until this winter when the likes of Carlos Lee hit the free-agent market. Then perhaps the Braves have at least a better idea where the market could be headed a year later and if they should listen to offers for Andruw this winter or wait until next summer, or perhaps sign him to an extension before it even comes to that.
The Yankees, Red Sox and Angels drive the market each offseason, with a suddenly big-spending team like Toronto or the Mets getting into the mix when a new ballpark, TV deal or eager owner comes along looking to make a splash.
So as much as Jones would stay with Atlanta if all things were equal, and perhaps if they were even reasonably close to equal, the Braves don’t expect to keep him if some team suddenly decides to raise the bar and offer Jones $20 mill a year for 4-5 years.
While the Yankees have Johnny Damon tied to a huge contract that might keep them out of the potential Andruw sweepstakes, the Red Sox and White Sox are two teams that have talked to the Braves in recent years about trading for Jones. So those two teams might get involved in the bidding, and two deep-pockets teams and Scott Boras can make for a huge bidding war in a hurry.
That said, the Braves are not at all conceding that Jones will be impossible to sign. Despite speculation _ and it’s just that, nothing but speculation _ from fans and some media, Braves front-office officials have been given no reason to believe that Liberty Media would significantly alter their payroll if and when they take over as owners.
This is based on recent conversations I’ve had with more than one Braves and/or Turner officials. Very recent conversations. The Braves are not in rebuilding mode, and don’t anticipate anything less than going into next season with their usual goals of playing for a division title and more (hey, that’s their stance, don’t jump on me for relaying it).
The $80 mill payroll is very reasonable for an established team with a good stadium lease and attendance that stopped its decline last year and is actually up slightly this season (despite predicitions otherwise, this bad season on the field hasn’t been reflected in attendance figures).
The Braves have long-term commitments to only four players beyond next season: Mike Hampton, Tim Hudson, Chipper Jones and Edgar Renteria, and those commitments total about $47 million in 2008 (using the $8 million figure the Braves apply for their annual commitment to Hampton, and $6 million for Edgar Renteria, the amount they’re paying on his contract annually).
There is room, if the Braves decide to go that direction, to fit $15 million or maybe even slightly more for Andruw Jones, especially if the salary is somewhat backloaded. And especially since their only current commitments for 2009 are to Hudson and a vesting-option year for Chipper Jones (if Hudson ever pitched like the old Hudson again for any length, he’d be tradeable if necessary. I know, big if.)
Chipper’s restructed deal that he did last winter includes a vesting option year in 2009 worth between $8 milland $11 mill, the amount to be determined according to performance levels in 2007-08.
If the Braves decide that Andruw Jones should stay productive for several more years, they will try to keep him. But at some point, they have to draw a line.
That’s what I don’t understand about the type of reasoning that I heard from a couple of radio guys the other day, who said flatly that successful teams keep their best, most productive players. Really? So, if the Red Sox offer Andruw a four-year, $80 mill contract, the Braves should offer him at least a four-year, $76 mill deal and hope he’ll give them a “discount?” Even if that’s a quarter of their annual payroll? Is there no reasonable limit to what they should offer?
I’m sure if the Braves did that, if they met or matched any offer to keep Andruw, and then he slipped a bit three years from now, then those same guys wouldn’t be critical at all of the Braves having a quarter of their payroll tied up in one guy. Riiiiight. No, no one would criticize that, would they?
They have Andruw under contract at $13.5 mill next season (2007), and he’s been durable and avoided any significant injury so far in his career.
While he can veto any trade after becoming a 10/5 guy, Andruw, like Chipper, isn’t likely to veto a deal if the Braves came to him and told him they wouldn’t be able to re-sign him and that so-and-so contending team wants him badly and probably would re-sign him to a lucrative extension.
In the interim, the Braves were only being smart trying to get him through waivers, because if he made it through, it would’ve allow the team to be nimble and consider a potential over-the-top trade offer before he becomes a 10/5 guy.
Their mistake _ and it was an easily avoidable one _ was in not simply making a private call to Andruw and explaining to him exactly what they were doing. Far as I can tell, there was no excuse for not doing that.
And no excuse for outsiders to not accept the fact that waivers are part of the game, for almost every player who wears a uniform. Put aside the passion for a moment and view the procedural move for what it was.
Sorry for beating this horse, if it’s dead already. Just wanted to offer by 2 cents (or 2,000 cents, given the length of the post).
Comments
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this
DOB, this blog has gotten too long. Please post a new blog!
Actually, thanks for the great overview of this whole thing. One question; you say that CJ is tied up for ‘09; I thought that was a club option year. No?
Thanks…
By MEB
August 6, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this
DOB… Welcome back! I was fixing to ask one of our resident journalists to check their sources as to your whereabouts. By the way, great info on Andruw.
By wayne
August 6, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this
Braves Lineup: Thoughts? 1 Francour although he is getting clutch hits, this move will ultimately allow Jeff to reach his potential, a selective, situational Frenchy will be deadly. being leadoff will change his approach to an AB.
2 Giles this is his natural hitting spot for some reason, just let him thrive
3 Chipper no comment
4 Andruw IF Andruw continues his maturity as a hitter, he will be the next David Ortiz, imagin Andruw leading baseball in RBI’s and HR’s in the clutch for the braves for the next 6 yrs!!! To contend for a championship, you have to build around greatness, and AJ is on the brink ( If JSh trades jones, braves won’t be able to beat an AL championship team period)
5 LaRoache He’s seeing the ball well right now and having Andruw and LaRoache will create great pressure on pitchers in close games.
6 Rentaria In an allstar game, Edgar would hit 6th. It’s his best spot, he’s struggling a bit in the 2nd because it’s a very ‘exposed’ spot, he’d have a resurgence with a change.
7 Brian McCann can’t hit him lower, so it’s either 5th or 7th, again, I believe AJ and LaRoache is better than AJ and BM.
8 LF
**
By Wicky
August 6, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this
Everybody - sorry I dropped the ball, I was thinking about puddin’.
By David O'Brien
August 6, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this
MBAT, yes, it’s a vesting option year worth $8 mill to $11 according to what he does in ‘07-08. I just went back into the post and claried that. Thanks.
By David O'Brien
August 6, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this
or rather, clarified that. not claried it. what’s claried it?
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this
I understud. Thanks.
By Beachcomber
August 6, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this
DOB - Welcome back. Well said. And yes, the Braves should have put in a call to Andrew. I have only met JS once but in his book he comes off a little “imperial” i.e. “I’m above calling one of my subjects.” (Andrew). Another subject -I was away yesterday when the Braves rightfully shipped Shiell to Richmond, but is the plan for the fifth spot in the rotation, anybody?
By Beachcomber
August 6, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this
Should say “what is the plan for the 5th spot?” Sorry.
By Tonight on TBS
August 6, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this
Repeat broadcast:
Saving Scribe O’Brien (1998)
During the most intense action of the ‘06 campaign, staff journalist Dave O’Brien (Matt Damon) has gone missing. AJC command cannot bear the loss of another esteemed writer. A rescue team is formed, led by Lt. Guy Curtright (Tom Hanks), composed of intrepid bloggers (with colorful nicknames: Head Coach, Grinch, Beachcomber, etc.) in order to save Dave O’Brien. With Kate Beckinsale as Nurse Gretchen. (Parental warning: much cussing and whining by the intrepid bloggers.)
By Tyger
August 6, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
Blah, blah, blah….its the Atlanta Crackers obligation to fix this PR mess not the team beat writer.
Schuerholtz’s repeated maneuvers to build the Aryan Braves is so redundant now that even the best spin cant remove its odious smell.
Surely, Andruw will say all the right things and appear to make nice with Fuhrer for what its worth.
But the truth is apparent and undeniable, all players at some point or another are placed on waivers…no big deal. But to do a kid, that took less money to remain a part of your organization when he didnt have to, 10 days before he acquired his 10/5 veto power spoke volumes about how the “master” race viewed Andruw’s ability to say yeah or nay about his career path.
Veto power was innapropriate for AJ but acceptable for Smoltz and Chipper. I wonder why?
It’s not what they did, its when, why and how they did it. If the “leak” hadn’t occurred and the masses not stepped up and cried “bloody murder” Andruw would be gone already.
Mon Fuhrer has yet to address the 10/5 issue, all he cares about is “secrecy”, its supposed to be confidential is his response???? Get outta here….
Heil Schuerholtz!!!
By Lew
August 6, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this
Welcome back Dave. We missed you. You’re right- anyone who doesn’t like music (no matter what type) is truly a sad, deprived human. Did you check out the new Wishbone Ash yet? I know you’ll like it. Beachcomber-Did you read the Bobby Dews article? I truly hope you change your mind about him. He’s one of a kind.
By old timer
August 6, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this
Maybe resigning A. Jones depends on who buys the team. I really don’t like our chances under current ownership. It’s too bad if we lose him. I don’t even think it’s fair to ask him to give another discount. He already did that once. The man deserves to be paid what he is worth and in this market, he is worth $18 to $20 million per. It’s all inflated by the Yanks, Bosox and Mets, but what are you going to do?
By The Shadow
August 6, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this
Ty Prather, aka Tyger, is a certifiable nut.
By Moe
August 6, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this
Salary Cap!
By Snoop
August 6, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this
Tyger - fo’ shizzle my tyzzle!
By Peter
August 6, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this
Look Andruw is a guy who could have been pulled back from Scott Boras. He’s a guy who among all of the “Georgia” guys would have been willing to take a bit less.
Everyone acts as if we have this all powerful farm system and I have one question for them? Where are the potential power hitters in our system? Where are the power pitchers?
He’s leaving now no matter what. If I’m the GM of a team that covets ‘druw and can afford him, I’m waiting the Braves out I wouldn’t give the Braves ANYTHING for him. I’d wait a year and then sign him.
We misplayed the hand.
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this
DOB, did you happen to read my proposed trade to the Angels I posted on Friday? I did some thinking and came up with a possbile solution to keep Andruw and improve the team all the same. I suggested trading Giles, Langerhans, LaRoche, and Ramirez to the Angles for Chone Figgins, Howie Kendrick, and Erwin Santana. I think the deal would satisfy needs that both teams have and the trade would free up money for the Braves to offer Andruw. I figured Atlanta could offer 17 mil to 17.5 mil which would be enough to keep him even if another team offered more because if Andruw is sincere about his desire to stay that would be more than adequate. Giving up LaRoche would be tough but he could be replaced by Thorman/Jurries. Kendrick could platoon with Prado at 2B. Figgins could play LF along side Andruw and Frenchy. How many hits would hitters be robbed of with those three roaming the outfield. We could always sign an inexpensive free agent to replace Langerhans. Abyar could be the utility guy he is destined to be. And of course Santana (23 yrs old)would give us a good hard throwing young pitcher that could anchor the rotation for years to come. The payroll would be strained but only for 2008, because as you said relief would be coming in 2009 with Chipper’s option and Hampton’s contract. And, Smoltz’s contract would be up freeing even more money.
So, what do you think?
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this
Peter, I think you’re right to a point. However, teams like the Red Sox and Angels can’t wait another year if they want to win a WS next year. They will be trying very hard to make a deal. If the Yanks do exercise Sheffield’s option, then they have the most powerful well balanced lineup in all of baseball. Their pitching will be solid so those two teams would have to do something. No to mention if Sheffield didn’t retrun for 2008 then the Yanks would be in the free agent sweeptstakes for Andruw’s services as well. I’m sure for 13 mil a year Damon will accept being a DH or even learn 1B.
By David O'Brien
August 6, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this
Robert, why in the world would you give up LaRoche, who’s hit 10 homers since the All-Star break and is going to hit more than 30 homers with 40-45 doubles while playing exceptional defense? All that while making about $2 mill next year?
Lew, I haven’t heard the Wishbone Ash yet, but will soon, for sure. Sounds like it’d be very good.
Tyger, you can’t be serious with that ridiculous post, right? About the “Crackers” and all that other nonsensical crap? Because if you’re kidding, it’s a decent post _ pretty humorous. But if you’re at all serious, you may need psychiatric help, my friend. Seriously.
By Jason C
August 6, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this
The Braves should have traded Andruw for Crisp, Lester, and Hansen if they could have. That would not only solve a need in the rotation, bullpen, and CF if when Andruw went to Boston, but it would also allow us to chase Carlos Lee in the off season to replace his production. We would be a lot better team by doing that.
By mariner
August 6, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this
if the braves truly desire to resign andruw, js needs to approach him this off-season rather than wait until the end of 07. JS doesn’t seem to realize that his dogmatic, imperious style can change on a case-by-case basis, especially if it favors the braves. he’ll save the braves millions if he just presents a fair offer before next season begins. once he let’s andruw play out his contract and perhaps loses exclusive negotiating rights, boras will make him pay dearly. btw, i live near seattle, and folks here had worked themselves into a frenzy thinking the mariners were the team awarded the waiver claim on andruw. this was on friday. spent the majority of the hour long drive home listening to kjr-am sports radio show devoted to what it would take to get andruw. folks here were willing to give up top 2-3 prospects, which are pretty good. they pretty much had andruw penciled in cf and as the final piece in a world series dynasty. sometimes, braves fans get into a mode of criticising players for an at-bat or game, or bad throw, or slow trot to first. it’s good to step back once and awhile and appreciate what you have, at least though the eyes of opposing fans.
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this
Jason C, it seems pretty clear that Boston wouldn’t part with Lester as part of a deal for AJ.
By Jason C
August 6, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this
I’m really starting to like LaRoche. He is a great producer in the 7th or 8th hole. In fact, in that spot in the lineup, there isnt a lot better than him.
By Jason C
August 6, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this
I’m really starting to like LaRoche. He is a great producer in the 7th or 8th hole. In fact, in that spot in the lineup, there isnt a lot better than him.
By Jason C
August 6, 2006 06:04 PM | Link to this
MBATL: they may not… but i would have taken Hansen, Crisp, and say Pedroia or another top prospect as well. I like Andruw, but he is NOT worth 25% of the Braves payroll. We might as well get something in return and use the extra money to chase Soriano, Zito, or Lee in the off season.
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this
No argument there, Jason C.
By Jason C
August 6, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this
Indeed. I really wanted Oswalt and maybe Hunter Pence, Fernando Neive or Troy Patton for AJ. I wish we’d get back to the dominating pitching days… especially since we have such young guys on offence and more coming up in the next couple of years. Our pitching is in dire straights right now and doesnt look to get any better until James and Davies matures. A lot! Still, even then, we would need another guy or two.
By NowhereMan
August 6, 2006 06:11 PM | Link to this
Payroll
How many years in a row have we been capped at $80MM?
I have to hope that it has a shot at increasing. There are grounds for it at least coming from an “inflation-adjustment” perspective.
BT, DOB, have you heard anything… even rumors… from your sources on the pending sale?
By Snowball's Chance
August 6, 2006 06:11 PM | Link to this
DOB, I am envious of you attending the Tom Waits concert. He doesn’t tour much. I need more details.
By The Grinch
August 6, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this
He’s not kidding, unfortunately. This is not an isolated incident. Welcome back, Dave; strange to have a blog more than 6-8 lines long. By the way, Jimmy Smith is sending Diane Lane your way because of her inability to make a decent bannana pudding. If I were you, I’d take her up and be happy with store-bought. In olden times it would be difficult to decide whether to watch “Saving Scribe O’Brian” or the Raiders-Eagles scrimmage tonight; thank god for TiVo.
By Bob, journalist
August 6, 2006 06:14 PM | Link to this
MBATL, How much did you pay to get your definitive initial comment to appear immediately after David O’B’s lead?
Now that Andruw has cleared waivers, maybe we can get back to the task at hand! John was just teasing us … he kenw that if he kept it close, we’ll be okay … those new relievers seem to know how to close it out.
Welcome back Mr. O’B … Was it me of whom you spoke? … me what was born and raised on Country Music … why, when I was little, I thought Nashville, Cincinnati and Del Rio were all Atlanta surburbs ‘cause all we ever listened to at night was crystal clear country from WSM, WCKY, and sometimes real late at night, one in Del Rio whose letters I can’t recall, other than the K, of course.
Me what still sings “I Saw The Light” when I’m out driving as the sun comes up … it’s in my blood … you know that I don’t hate music but I had my reasons for so saying and it’s nice to see someone noticed, if indeed you did. Regardless, it’s music to my ears to hear that you’re back … and I hope that claried things up.
David, in some quarters, “claried things up” means to have made things clar.
By Bill in VA
August 6, 2006 06:21 PM | Link to this
Welcome back DOB. Thanks for the waiver info. I watched Will Startup in Richmond recently & he looked VERY good. So did Bryan Pena. Pena would be better off the bench pinch hitting than Pratt, I think. Hope we see more of these two soon.
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 06:21 PM | Link to this
DOB, I threw in LaRoche because he would be the part of the deal that would entice the Angels the most since they need a power hitting 1B. Now, I would much rather keep LaRoche and offer Thorman but I didn’t know he would be attractive enough to him. My thinking in proposing the trade is that it would solve the leadoff position which has got to be solved IMO, it would give us a good younger consistent starter, and it would free up the money to keep Andruw. I think the Angels would look at the deal because Giles is a good 2B despite what people say and he would be a better and cheaper option then what they have right now. Figgins could be expendable to them because they most certainly will go after Soriano, who could leadoff for them. And they said they would trade Kendrick if a deal was right. I was just thinking of way to solve some real problem areas and keep Andruw at the same time. If I had my preferance I would keep Giles and LaRoche. Giles is amazing when hitting in the 2 hole as opposed to leading off. I think if this year has shown anything it has shown that having a good leadoff hitter is important.
DOB, understand where I’m coming from now.
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 06:28 PM | Link to this
Also, DOB, I think the Braves should hire David Justice or someone like that to be a personal hitting coach to Francoeur to teach him to exhibit more patience without losing his aggressiveness.
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 06:34 PM | Link to this
Shouldn’t need a personal hitting coach, Robert (though I’m not opposed to it if it will help) … that’s the hitting coach’s job. Maybe we need a new hitting coach, or maybe our existing hitting coach needs to be given authority to ORDER, not suggest, that guys follow his advice. I don’t know just what the dynamic is down there, but both Frenchy and AJ could benefit from some coaching.
By user3686
August 6, 2006 06:34 PM | Link to this
Best part of DB’s introduction is “No comment” about chipper. This silent disgust about him is fully shared. Why in the world they fell for his “give money back” trick, by which he assured himself millions at the cost of braves frenchise.
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this
Yeah, our hitting coach doesn’t seem to be doing a very good job. Usually a team’s approach at the plate reflects the hitting coach’s style. TP didn’t go up and just hack away. I wonder if he is just not a good coach or is he being handcuffed by someone higher on the food chain.
DOB, what do you say?
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this
Robert JIB, I’ve related this before, a radio interview with TP where he said, basically, “I’m here if they want to work with me, but I don’t just go up to them and interfere.” I think he was referring to AJ a couple of years ago when he was slumping.
Like I said, I don’t know how this works; is a hitting coach just a ‘guidance counselor’ who’s there to talk if needed, or does he have any authority. I like TP from what I know about him, but it seems like in the ‘pitching coach department’, we’re not getting the job done.
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this
uh, that’s ‘hitting coach department’… God I need a proofreader.
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 06:51 PM | Link to this
Well, if that is Pendleton’s approach, then its a stupid one. What does he mean he doesn’t interfere. If they have a terrible swing or approach, its his job to “interfere”. I think some the coaching staff needs some serious re-evaluation during the offseason.
By 1 + 2
August 6, 2006 07:04 PM | Link to this
Good job DOB. Does anyone know what we can do with our starting pitching for this stretch run? Better yet, can someone suggest to JS that he needs to get Dr. Phil on the Hudson case. Huddy may need a hug or something… maybe we should call Harold Reynolds.
By Beachcomber
August 6, 2006 07:09 PM | Link to this
About that fifth starter??? I see we brought up Franklin, but he’s a lefty reliever. Any clue who goes fifth? Lew - what article on Bobby Dews? I seem to remember one in Chop Talk a few months back. Okay, he stays but McDowell, TP and Gonzalez have to go. Gonzalez’s name keeps surfacing in managerial rumors each winter. Let’s hope he fools someone in an interview this winter!
By Peter
August 6, 2006 07:10 PM | Link to this
You guys are WAY off base in calling TP out. A player who has reached the majors has had dozens of hitting coaches. He takes what he thinks he can use from each of them.
IF he’s willing to listen and work on his game. Hitting is difficult and nobody, nobody can tell a player HOW to hit.
Either you have it or you don’t and if you’ve made the majors and you’ve always hit a certain way and you’re making a hell of a lot more money than your hitting coach and yes that counts. It’s ego.
There’s no way to make them do it.
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 07:17 PM | Link to this
Peter, I’m really not trying to trash TP. But let’s take Francouer as an example;
He’s obviously got talent, and power. But his opb is embarrassing, .280 last I checked. I like Frenchy and wouldn’t trade him or send him to the minors. But…
Are you saying that there is simply nothing that can or should be done about that, that it’s totally up to a 22-year-old to figure it out?
Like I said (twice, I think) I don’t know how this relationship works, but I hate to think that Frenchy’s coachable days are completely over at 22.
By Bob, journalist
August 6, 2006 07:18 PM | Link to this
NowhereMan, I know you were being serious and I sincerely respect that … but I couldn’t help but smile when I saw “There are grounds for it at least coming from an inflation-adjustment perspective” … there’s certainly no question that players need and deserve pay increases to help them struggle against the ravages of inflation.
David O’B, you know that I generally agree with you … but you’re certainly more understanding than me … after pondering the Tyger* post, I could find no redeeming value from any motivational perspective, whether it be humor or mockery.
My last words on Andruw … The situation that JS faced, relative to assuring Andruw … is fraught with peril. Advising players may seem to be the nice thing to do but that practice is a two edge sword that will cut both thee amd me when there is indeed something afoot.
Probably belaboring the obvious, the potential of a major explosion occurring when a GM fails to assure the player that all is well … would be much greater and porentially more disruptive … were the GM’s standard practice be to give such assurances when nothing is transpiring than were the standard practice be to say nothing, regardless of the situation. If for no other reason, John’s actions were prudent.
By ncscoots
August 6, 2006 07:26 PM | Link to this
Peter’s on it…you can’t ORDER a hitter to hit a certain way, as you would order a production line worker to place a widget in a gadget. There are 649 different ways of hitting in the majors (here I’m assuming that there actually ARE two players who hit the same way), and most these guys are where they are because they found something that worked for THEM. Now, does that mean that TP (or any other hitting coach) can’t help them? No…but sometimes it takes a lot of failure to realize that what has been successful in the past (“the way I’ve always hit”) no longer is operative. And hitting coaches don’t make personnel decisions, so, if a hitter chooses to ignore advice from his friendly hitting coach, what’s the coach to do? Threaten to not ask about their family and to not sit next to them on the plane???
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 07:31 PM | Link to this
Bob, great point regarding JS. When management starts apologizing to employees, for managing, the inmates are running the asylum. That’s about as mixed a metaphor as I can come up with!
By Beachcomber
August 6, 2006 07:35 PM | Link to this
Perhaps some of these hitting coach arguments would make sense if not for people like Charlie Lau and even our own Don Baylor. Baylor made a difference with several hitters during his tenure. Lau, of course, was a legend. They did not completely “recreate” hitters but changed their approach to the at bats and made better hitters. And at 22, a couple of our guys have incredible futures with the right guidance from a hitting coach. McCann’s horrible at bat with the bases loaded today is case in point. Guy comes into the game can’t throw a strike but McCann swings at 2-0 pitch at the bill of his cap with bases loaded. This is were a hitting coach earns his money. “I let them come to me” doesn’t cut it.
By ncscoots
August 6, 2006 07:35 PM | Link to this
BTW, the best part about this whole non-story about Andruw and waivers? For two whole days, not a single post about the Betemit trade! LOL
By NowhereMan
August 6, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this
Bob, Journalist;
I probably should have painted a better picture. In no way did I intend to suggest we give our players raises. I’m talking on the macro level, not the micro. Just to be clear, I’m sayin simply that market prices have already risen many times since JS was given his annual $80MM budget. And that $80MM doesn’t buy us near as much as it did X number of years ago when it was set. Since the market prices rise each year and we’re tied to the same number, each year the Braves can buy less and less.
And I agree with you on your last point (not ever setting a precedent of having to notify players). That lays a minefield.
By ncscoots
August 6, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this
Beachcomber, I certainly don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but I have to think, too, that young players don’t always have the game-maturity of older players, regardless of their physical skills. At-bat game plans for those guys sometimes just comes down to “see the ball, hit the ball”. Experience does count, and it’s a rare player in their first full season that can hit like one with five. That being said, I agree with you that hitting coaches CAN make a much larger difference working on the mental side of hitting rather than just mechanics.
By Lew
August 6, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this
Beachcomber-Right here on the good ole AJC site there is a Bobby Dews article. He really is indespensible.
By NowhereMan
August 6, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this
Hitting Coach Topic
I have never heard of a team wherein players were required to both consult and adhere to what a hitting coach has to say to a player.
In Bravesland… and in particular with Andruw… I remember hearing from more than one source last year when AJ was on such a phenomenal tear that AJ had finally started paying attention to and acting upon what, not only TP had been telling him, but also what Bobby had been telling him for years.
By ncscoots
August 6, 2006 07:56 PM | Link to this
and my final note on hitting coaches, too…what young stud under 30, with the world at his feet, money galore, and adoring fans, EVER listened to ANYBODY who told him he was doing something wrong??? The business world is full of ‘em, folks, why should baseball be any different? :-)
By Glass Half Full
August 6, 2006 07:56 PM | Link to this
The best thing to happen to the NFL was the salary cap. I wish baseball had one, but the players’ association would never go for it.
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 08:02 PM | Link to this
Amen, Glass Half Full
By NowhereMan
August 6, 2006 08:06 PM | Link to this
Tedbound on Monday
Yep, they’re back in town and yes, I seriously doubt I’ll be able to resist. I’ll probably be getting a single ticket unless my usual buddy wriggles free.
Anyone here planning on going there? Holler if you want to grab a BP beer at Turner Beach.
By Bob, journalist
August 6, 2006 08:15 PM | Link to this
Peter, there’s some meat in your post, that’s for sure … but, unless things have changed dramatically, there’s still a place for the Charlie Lau’s of this world to perform their magic on Major League teams.
Just as it is possible to convert throwers to pitchers at the major league level, so too is it possible to turn sluggers into accomplished situational hitters.
I think it’s probably the id that causes the immature player to sing “I gotta be me” and the ego that tells him he’d better listen to the old coach. Tiger Woods is fairly accomplished as a player and the money he makes borders on the vulgar … but you can bet he listens to his coach … regardless of id, ego, superego, or money.
It doesn’t take a Charlie Lau or Sam Byrd to see why most of our hitters are inconsistent and why they strikeout much too often … there are fundamental flaws that should and could be effectively addressed … I humbly suggest that there is a way … and a time proven one at that “No Tickee … No Washee, No Shirtee”.
Using your “either you have it or you don’t” logic is kinda neat and perhaps it means that we should get rid of most of the players now playing in the majors.
It would explain how we could significantly reduce organizational expenses … just start all the position players out in the Majors as soon as they have mastered their defensive skills … if they have it, they’ll stick, if they don’t … they’re gone … hitting skills are God given and can’t be taught, refined or improved upon … that’s how my Daddy learned to swim … makes sense to me.
By Carolina Lady
August 6, 2006 08:27 PM | Link to this
How often did we see shots of Julio in the dugout having the rapt attention of young players as he demonstrated hitting?? That tells me they are willing to listen to someone whom they respect, as they obviously did Julio.
Waiting for someone to come to help seems a bit lame to me, a layman observer. Using the right approach with someone can work wonders. I don’t know TP and I’m not privy to the inner sanctum of the clubhouse, so I can only go by what I see. Absolutely no disrespect intended to anyone.
By Jimmy Buffet, unplugged
August 6, 2006 08:35 PM | Link to this
I’m glad that there’s a blog where you can opine about baseball AND music. Thanks DOB. I’ve been a Brave’s fan for a very long time now and this has been a very frustrating season. I would like to vent with y’all and I could go on and on and bore you all to death. But I communicate best through my music. So I thought I would sing you all a little song. I wrote it a few years back, but I have adapted it so that it now addresses my number one frustration - the Braves starting pitchers, and one in particular. It goes like this…
Now, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know where the ball is gonna go, When Tim Hudson throw.
The pitch is coming down the middle, between the batter’s chest and thigh. The batter take a mighty swing, and pretty soon the horsehide fly.
[Chorus:] Let me hear you now, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know where the ball is gonna go, when Tim Hudson throw.
In the daytime or the dark, the baseball always leaves the park. No time to count what Timmy’s worth, cause the ball just left the planet Earth.
[Chorus]
It can’t be caught by Chipper Jones, It won’t be caught by Andruw Jones, The ball, it splashes in the ocean, Where it’s caught by Davey Jones.
[Chorus]
The ball fly beyond the field pavilion, Past the city, to the sticks. First goes one and then another, His ERA is almost 6.
Tim’s got as bad as Jorge Sosa, Jason Shiell or Chuckie James, It seems no matter who the starter The outcome always is the same.
[Final Chorus]
By Jigoku kôshien
August 6, 2006 08:56 PM | Link to this
Bob-san, jounalist:
Humbly suggest that your reference (“No Tickee … No Washee, No Shirtee”) is disrespectful.
Please report with Tyger for cultural sensitivity training.
Domo arigato gozaimasu.
By Bob, journalist
August 6, 2006 09:00 PM | Link to this
My Lady,
Based on what Julio said in some of the early interviews after joining the Braves, it was a little surprising to see how active he was in the dugout and the obvious influence that he had.
However, I suspect that it was more than his spirit and retoric that infulenced the players … he could still pull the ball but but played within himself and normally went with the pitch … which led by example and probably influenced Andruw, Marcus, and most players on the team.
By MBATL
August 6, 2006 09:16 PM | Link to this
So is it the consensus of the group that Pendleton has absolutely nothing to do with anything?
Really not trying to be critical of him or anyone else, just wondering where leadership comes from.
The easy answer is to say that Chipper should be the one. But as we’ve all seen in many walks of life, just because one can do doesn’t mean one can teach, and vice versa.
Charlie Lau is widely credited as one of the great hitting instructors of all time, but was a .255 hitter with 16 HR in 11 seasons.
By ssiscribe
August 6, 2006 09:18 PM | Link to this
DOB, welcome back. You’re just in time. The ballclub still has a chance to make the playoffs, thanks to today’s win.
Had the Braves lost, after so many missed opportunities the entire weekend, to finish off being swept, it might have been the end of the road. Two-game swings are critical, especially when most of the league sits between you and the top spot.
But not only are the Braves 5 1/2 back instead of 7 1/2 back, they also gained a game on the Marlins (passing Florida in the process), the Brewers (just 1/2 game behind them), the Astros (1 1/2 back), the Rockies (three games back), and if the Phillies lose (they’re down 2-0 right now to the Mets), the Braves will have gained a game on them and be only two behind them.
Like I said yesterday, the next week or so will determine if the Braves still have a shot. After the three at home with Philly and three with Milwaukee, the Braves will have 46 games left. A 5-1 homestand, minimum, is what they need to really push themselves fully back into the mix.
Two steps forward, two steps back, isn’t going to cut it. Time is running out. But rallying to win today was a big step forward.
One more thing: Last time we had HoRam, Huddy and James pitch at home, the Mets blasted them into oblivion and locked up the East in the process. If you three guys want to pitch in the postseason, it’s time to show it. Now!
By Glass Half Full
August 6, 2006 09:18 PM | Link to this
The D-backs designated Mike Koplove and Randy Choate for assignment. I don’t understand those moves.
By Glass Half Full
August 6, 2006 09:22 PM | Link to this
Glad to see most of you are resigned to the wild card and not the division.
By Todd iPod
August 6, 2006 09:31 PM | Link to this
Sissyscribe:
Dude - the braves lost 2 out of 3 to the Reds. So that’s like 1 step forward after 2 steps back. Do the math, man.
Oh, and which three guys are you talking to: glass half, Bob, and MBATL?
Horam, Huddy, and James aren’t here, dude. They’re not LISTENing.
By David O'Brien
August 6, 2006 09:38 PM | Link to this
Bob, I didn’t really think there was anything the least bit funny in Le Tigre’s post earlier; I was just being sarcastic with him, using the mechanism to then follow with how ridiculous he’d be if he actually believed his own garbage. I don’t think he’s being serious, however. Probably someone trying to stir up something.
Or… or maybe he’s not a big baseball fan and has no clue who Coco Crisp is?
See, Tigre, it’s a bit of a stretch to come up with any sort of logic that would make it a racist move to trade Andruw Jones, a native of Curacao with Dutch ancestry (the island was part of the Netherlands Antilles) to Boston for a package that included a replacement, Crisp, who’s an African-American from Los Angeles. Just having a hard time finding the logic in that argument, so maybe you could explain it to us all. Anyway…
Anyway, back on planet earth … Forgot to put in a plug for the Dewsy story running in tomorrow’s paper and already posted online. It’s outstanding, as are all features written by Michelle Hiskey. You guys all really should read it, the regulars here I’m referring to, most of you being of a bit more well-rounded and interesting lot than than the typical sports fan and all.
Dewsy’s a trip, man, and I mean that in the best way. I guarantee you the story will give most or all of you a new perspective on the Dewsy that everybody in the clubhouse, and those others of us who’ve gotten to know him, all enjoy and respect a great deal. A good, good man.
By Bob, journalist
August 6, 2006 09:42 PM | Link to this
Jigoku Kôshien,
No disrespect intended … it was used by my college economics professor, himself a Chinatown graduate, to give us a humorous way to remember the principle he was trying to teach … obviously ethnic but, as used, it was effective and inoffensive. In fact, as I recall, he explained that those in Chinese launderies In this sheltered world in which I live,
By David O'Brien
August 6, 2006 09:44 PM | Link to this
Oh, Snowball’s Chance: It was a really unforgettable event, seeing the great Mr. Waits. He hadn’t played Atlanta since the LATE 70s! The man’s 56 now, and more brilliant than ever. He’s got a great rapport with his adoring fans, tells hilarious stories to set up a lot of his songs. All that acting he’s done has only made him that much more theatrical and powerful a performer.
And the music was just phenomenal. Great band, including his son on drums and blues guitarist Duke Robillard. Tom’s voice is impossibly gravelly and deep, and he played nearly 2 hours, everything from old classics like Heartattack and Vine to stuff off Mule Variations and one or two numbers off his upcoming album.
By LT
August 6, 2006 09:51 PM | Link to this
Ok- I’m grasping my last straw! I give the Braves this last homestand to make a run or they’re not gonna.
However, I did glance at their schedule and found hope in the fact that out of their last 52 games only 6 of those are against a team with a winning record, i.e. the Mets. Wow the NL stinks….
By Tony Almeida
August 6, 2006 09:55 PM | Link to this
John Shurholtz wouldnt even think about calling Andruw and letting him know. You see Andruw’s comments? How it “was rude”? JS is a sly man. Now he’s creating situations like this to be able to write a second book. What a LOSER.
By Diane L.
August 6, 2006 10:18 PM | Link to this
Journalist Jimmy Smith, why won’t you take my calls? I am turning to this blog to express my feelings for you. I never knew being with a Ugandan journalist could be like that. I can think of little else but youm and I want you back. I did not use the cab fare. I am close by. Today, I spent time with a renowned pastry chef being coached on how to make a good banana pudding. It’s only pudding that keeps us apart, dearest Jimmy. I will prepare as many puddings as necessary until my banana pudding is good enough win you back. Fondly, Diane.
By Diane L.
August 6, 2006 10:22 PM | Link to this
And it’s ok that you have the smallest wee wee I have ever seen and that it only lasted 5 seconds. Please come back to me. Fondly, Diane.
By Diane L.
August 6, 2006 10:27 PM | Link to this
I know I shouldn’t have used your pet name in the blog, Youmy Woumy. Forgive me. The puddings are getting better and better. I have only three things to say to you: I love you, I need you, I want you, and I miss you, See, I write like your favorite journalist and am knock-out gorgeous, too. Is pudding such a big deal? Fondly, Diane.
By Diane L.
August 6, 2006 10:29 PM | Link to this
And remember, I can always forgive you for the fling you had with the neighbor’s husband, I understand that you just were experimenting. Please reconsider my little Woumy. Fondly, Diane.
By MEB
August 6, 2006 10:38 PM | Link to this
Tony, Tony, Tony… are you serious? Ya think this is about JS writing books? Come on now lets get serious because the Braves have got to win a bunch of games and this non-story should just go away. So lets get our head in the game and lets whomp them Phillies!
GO BRAVES!!!
By midnite
August 6, 2006 10:41 PM | Link to this
I’m glad I don’t have to make the decision on Andruw’s future. While he is “home grown” talent and one of the great CF of all time JS is justified to gauge interest in him. Seems to me a waiver wire trade for multiple players is next to impossible since all players in a trade would have to clear waivers. On the subject of letting a player know he is being placed on waivers is a “business decision” for the GM. Fans must realize that, baseball or any sport for that matter, is a business. We on the outside never really know the real story.
By David O'Brien
August 6, 2006 10:47 PM | Link to this
Midnight, you’re correct about it being next to impossible to do a multi-player trade after the non-waiver deadline, at least a multi-player trade involving good players with reasonable salaries. Which is why the Red Sox trade, at least involving Lester or Hansen or Crisp, wouldn’t happen now _ all of those guys would be claimed on waivers.
The only reasonable hypothetical involving Andruw wouldn’ve involved another player from another team with a huge salary, perhaps with that team picking up some of his salary, etc.
But it doesn’t matter now, because Andruw was pulled back from waivers after being claimed. So he’s not going to be traded the rest of the season, and if he’s traded at all, he’ll have to approve the deal now, because he’ll be a 10/5 on Aug. 15.
By MEB
August 6, 2006 10:49 PM | Link to this
Did anyone else notice the large number of Braves fans at Great American Ballpark today? One of the great benifits of having a true SuperStation.
By Tony Almeida
August 6, 2006 11:11 PM | Link to this
I think JS has an obligation to his players to let them know that they are being put on the waiver wire, whether it’s relevant or not. Andruw takes a pay cut to stay with the Braves and JS can’t even bother to pick up the phone and let him know?? Like DOB said, tell him to keep it confidential, but still, atleast LET HIM KNOW. It’s called common courtesy. My boss would have the courtesy to let me know that I would be going to another department if it was discussed. So why can’t “Mr. Secret” Schuerholtz do it? Besides, Jack Bauer is taking a leave of absence while he’s in China. So I’m up for a promotion.
By Bob, journalist
August 6, 2006 11:14 PM | Link to this
Jigoku Kôshien,
I see that my initial draft response was somehow posted at 9:42 pm, about the time I took a break for supper … grandchildren will be kids sometimes, as they say. Let’s see if I can clean it up a bit.
Most everyone needs sensitivity training refreshers from time to time, but honestly, no disrespect was intended … it was used by my college economics professor, himself a Chinatown graduate, to give us a humorous way to remember the principle he was trying to teach … obviously ethnic but, as used, it was effective and inoffensive in a class of about 14 that included 2 asian students.
As I recall, he explained that those in Chinese laundries used the expression as a kind of inside joke because the broken English was expected of them. The elderly Chinese lady who owns the laundry with which we have done business for several years, jokingly uses the expression “No Tickee, No Shirtee” whenever I lose one of my receipts, as a gentle reminder not to lose them … but while her enunciation bespeaks her origins, her English is pure.
Like most folks, I’m somewhat familiar with some of the abuse endured by different ethnic groups in this country and throughout the world and I try to be sympathetic thereto … but, good ethnic characteristics, expressions and humor are for the world to employ and enjoy … not to be avoided for fear of being politically incorrect or having ones motives misunderstod.
I’m a sinner, not a saint … but, in this sheltered world in which I live, the thought of being disrespectful would enter my mind … and though I can see where some might consider many of my actions insensitive, I would hope that they first seek to understand my perspective before reaching such a conclusion.
In the same vein, I learned “Old Man River”, “Old Black Joe” and many other Foster tunes from a wonderful old black man with a great voice … and I loved the tales of Uncle Remus as written by the man who called the Wren’s Nest home. My oldest childhood friend was black and we both enjoyed listening to the misadventures of Amos & Andy better than any other on the radio.
There’s no disrespect intended when I try to sing those songs today as I learned them back then or retell those Uncle Remus tales to my grandson … those songs, tales and characters are family.
By TennesseePaul
August 6, 2006 11:15 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the post DOB. The trade Andruw, Braves are dying, talk was getting a little hard to read. Now that it’s over, we can focus on starting pitching. The biggest hole on the team. The only hole left. And the question of, what happens when Chipper comes back? Does Giles go back to lead off? The answer is most likely yes, but now I’m not so sure if it should be.
By robdawg06
August 6, 2006 11:19 PM | Link to this
Its about time the Braves came back after trailing and won a game. Is it just me or is Matt Diaz not being played enough ? This guy hits really well and deserves to play every day. I guess Bobby HAS to have a platoon somewhere as always ??? The home plate umpire’s strike zone was bad today. He was discriminating against Smoltz’s pitches severely. I wish a pitcher would bean one of those stupid umpires in the head with a wild pitch sometimes. They couldmake it look accidental… Lol. Hey DOB, can you get me tickets to a Godsmack concert perhaps ? Kick “Awake” into your cd player and rock !
By robdawg06
August 6, 2006 11:20 PM | Link to this
Oh yeah DOB, you know Jim Rome always gets “The Last Word”…
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 11:24 PM | Link to this
DOB, am I wrong in thinking that the biggest need of this team in the offseason, other than a closer, is to acquire a leadoff hitter? Also, is there any chance Giles stays a Brave? In your opinion what should the Braves do about Francoeur’s plate discipline? Should they do what the Expos did with Vlad Guererro and hope he gains some discipline or just let him be? Do you agree with me that he looks like Vlad 10 years ago?
By Shaun
August 6, 2006 11:44 PM | Link to this
The Braves don’t owe Andruw a call, unless they are going to explain to him how the waiver process works. I understand him being upset, but it’s a total emotional reaction. Schuerholz and the front office have to stay detached emotionally from his players so that he makes the right decisions about their contracts and possibly trading them.
Once it became clear that AJ wasn’t going anywhere then he should have called and apologized that the Braves’ business was leaked into the media (and for all we know he could have). But he should not discuss possible trades or contract situations with players unless they have some sort of veto power or unless it is time to negotiate a contract with a player.
There is a lack of objectivity hear with concern to Andruw. Andruw is 29 and the evidence shows players peak in their late 20’s. AJ is not likely to get any better (although he should still be very productive for a few more years). It would be a perfect time to trade him if we can get three top-notch young players and/or top prospects. I would hate to see Jones go as much as anyone, but it would help the team if we got that. Three pretty good young cheap players are better than one great expensive player who has likely already peaked and who is not signed through next year.
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
August 6, 2006 11:53 PM | Link to this
I agree, Shaun. JS and the front office need to find out right now what Andruw wants. If he wants to stay, what will it take for him to stay. Tell him that an extension needs to be signed before the winter meetings. If he hedges, then Andruw obviously isn’t THAT serious about staying a Brave and wants to test the free agent market. I wouldn’t blame him if that’s what he wanted to do. But, if that is the case the front office has an obligation to the orginization to look out for the entire team and start seeking a trade partner. They need to put the ball squarely in Andruw’s court.
By SRF
August 6, 2006 11:55 PM | Link to this
Speaking of trades… Has anybody noticed that Furcal and Betemit are teaming up to put the beat-down on people ? They are on base or hitting all of the time it seems…
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 12:00 AM | Link to this
Shaun, I agree with most of what you say. I wasn’t suggesting John call Andruw and tell him speficits of what they’re doing _ just that he’s sorry the info leaked, and broad, general reason why it only makes sense to put players on waivers, whether it’s to give themselves flexibility, or possibly as a decoy to move other players, through, etc. No names, just general terms, and only because Andruw was obviously peeved a bit. But you’re right _ it’s business, and players don’t have to be kept abreast of every potential move. This one was unusual for a few reasons listed above, however, coming just before he’s a 10/5 guy and after the Red Sox stuff got out.
Oh, and I think you had a typo _ Andruw IS signed through next season. Just not signed beyond that. But he’s under contract for $13.5 mill in 2007.
Robert, yes, there’s a chance Giles stays a Brave. I don’t think it’s a great chance, but a decent one. They haven’t made the decision yet, and won’t until they get through the season, then decide how that $5 mill or so that Giles stands to make would best be spent _ by keeping him, or applying it elsewhere if they think they can fill the second-base void be it from within the organization or a cheaper alternative from outside.
As for Francoeur, reminds me a little of Vlad, just being a free-swinging outfielder with strong arm. But NOBODY is the bad-ball hitter than Vlad is. He literally hits homers on balls from his shoetops to his shoulders. Nobody else can do that. He’s a freak like that.
Frenchy needs to become more patient, but it’s a fine line. Last thing Braves want him to do is think TOO much and lose his aggressiveness. So they’re careful not to stress too much how he should take more pitches, etc. It’s a tough call. You know he’s hit nine first-pitch homers? I looked that up today. And swung at 52 percent of first pitches, most in the majors.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 12:05 AM | Link to this
SRF, Betemit was 5-for-9 with two doubles and a homer in his first two games with the Dodgers, then went 1-for-15 with a homer in his next four games before today, when I think he homered again, didn’t he?
Before today, Betemit was 8-for-43 (.186) with three doubles, three homers, four RBIs, 11 strikeouts and a .255 OBP in his past 12 games for the Braves and Dodgers.
By Tony Almeida
August 7, 2006 12:07 AM | Link to this
Did Andruw keep it “business” when he gave the Braves a hometown discount? I don’t think so.
By Robert
August 7, 2006 12:14 AM | Link to this
Put Cox on waivers, and then pray someone claims him.
Way number 17 to get the donkey out of the dugout
By Jimbo
August 7, 2006 12:16 AM | Link to this
If Frenchy were a Texas Holdem player he woulg go all-in pre flop every time no matter if he had pocket aces or 2-7.
By Jimbo
August 7, 2006 12:19 AM | Link to this
If Frenchy had an intelligent hitting plan and learned the strike zone he would be hitting .360 instead of .260.
By hop on chop
August 7, 2006 12:34 AM | Link to this
DOB,
Meringue topping is indeed a banana pudding must. Thanks for confirming.
I was made sport of the other night when I said this, but I knew your adoring minions would never challenge their idol.
On the music front, get Dion’s new CD, “Bronx in Blue.” The man’s absolutely amazing still at 66. The voice still awes.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 01:03 AM | Link to this
SRF, went to see what Betemit did today. No homer, but a single and two RBIs. 1-for-4, walk, two strikeouts, two RBIs.
So after going 5-for-9 with two doubles and a homer in his first two games with the Dodgers, he’s 2-for-19 with a homer in his past five games.
And in his past 13 games with the Braves and Dodgers, he’s 9-for-47 (.191) with three doubles, three homers, six RBIs, 13 strikeouts and a .258 OBP.
Just for the sake of accuracy.
By Moe
August 7, 2006 01:07 AM | Link to this
DOB/Jimbo:
Jimbo raises an interesting question - what would Jeff Francoeur’s batting average be if he didn’t strike out so much.
I’ll use stats from CBS Sportsline - the may not have been updated with Today’s games.
His strikeout ratio is about 20%. Brian McCann’s is about 12% - that is really good and it would be very unrealistic to expect Francoeur to get his that low. Edgar Renteria’s strikeout ratio is 15.6%. This is better than Francoeur’s (but higher than McCann’s). So, let’s suppose that Francoeur were to lower his strikeout ratio from 20% to 15.6%, a reasonable goal. If so, he would have had 70 strikeouts, rather than 89.
When he does not strikeout, his average is .319. If he had had 19 extra non-strikeout at bats, he would have had 6 extra hits based on his non-strikeout b.a. of .319 (and maybe 1 extra homerun and 4 extra rbi’s).
Therefore, his adjusted batting average would rise to .269 (instead of .256).
So - everyone should note that Francoeur’s strikeout issue may not be as big a deal as you might think. Cutting down his strikeout rate to 15.6%, would allow an increase in batting average of only about 13 points. If by some miracle, he got down to McCann’s 12%, then his b.a. would only improve to .280.
Now - Renteria’s b.a. when not striking out is .370; McCann’s is .389. So when Francoeur hits the ball (i.e. doesn’t strike out) his success rate is much lower than Renteria’s (or McCann’s).
So, his approach to batting isn’t merely a strikeout problem.
By Moe
August 7, 2006 01:10 AM | Link to this
Oh, um, am I also supposed to say what band I like? I like Radiohead.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 01:10 AM | Link to this
Hop on chop: You’re not the first person who’s told me I should get that Dion CD. Surprising to hear how good it’s supposed to be. I think I read a good review of it somewhere, too.
Speaking of old dudes, you ever hear that Neil Diamond CD “12 Songs” that came out last year, produced by Rick Rubin? If you’re laughing, stop. It’s really good. Seriously. He dropped the schmaltz and cheese and just sang straightforward songs, mostly about getting old and facing the end, etc. Really strong stuff.
That said, I love the schmltz and cheese, too, at least in the right mood. Nothing like “Cracklin’ Rose” or “I Am, I Said.”
OK, I’ll stop
By Moe
August 7, 2006 01:15 AM | Link to this
Johnny Cash’s version of ‘Solitary Man’ has been, in my estimation, the only good thing to ocme out of the Diamond oeuvre.
By Long legged, pissed off Puerto Rican
August 7, 2006 01:16 AM | Link to this
Did anyone notice Wickmans massive spill today while going to cover first?
I wonder if he had to go take a poop after that. Probably messed with his bowel intestine…
Anywho, McCann is doing wonders for my fantasy team. Just thought I’d let everyone know.
Bi Bi, DOB…;)
By The Grinch
August 7, 2006 01:21 AM | Link to this
Whoever jumped on Jimmy Smith earlier, and I expect I know who it was; I’ll be your huckleberry. Shoot me something goading; I won’t dissapoint in my response. Anyone? Buhler? Buhler?…
By Moe
August 7, 2006 01:24 AM | Link to this
Oh, oeuvre is French for pile of crap.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 01:31 AM | Link to this
LLPOPR, that’s just gross, dude.
Moe, “Solitary Man” by The Man in Black is incredible.
The thing is, that’s what makes the Diamond songs on “12 songs” so good _ they’re just a guitar and his voice, without the overdone production, etc. Rubin wanted to pull Diamond out of his caricature cheeze-whiz state of the past couple decades and get him back to straight-ahead singer-songwriter like he was waaay back. I’m just saying, it’s a good CD. Shocking, coming from Diamond, because it’s genuinely good rather than kitschy-good.
That said, anybody see the Ramones’ End of the Century DVD? It’s the movie that came out year or two ago, and the extras on the DVD are great stuff, including Tommy Ramone inside-look at his drum technique.
OK, just had to get the conversation away from Neil Diamond before I retire. Time to get some sleep. The new Cash CD is going on the stereo as I slumber. You inspired me with the mention of his Solitary Man cover.
How ‘bout Cash’s Southern Accents cover? Also stellar. I was thinking about it because Petty’s got a new album out that’s also quite good.
later
By The Grinch
August 7, 2006 01:38 AM | Link to this
The sheer number of cowards who jump in like hyenas to take a snap at a great one’s ankles on this site are truly amazing. Anyhoo, Good reference, Jimbo, to Frenchy’s hold ‘em potential.
By Bob, journalist
August 7, 2006 01:43 AM | Link to this
Jimbo,
Before he went bankrupt, my oldest played Texas Holdem very much as you described but while he knew the strike zone, he never had a hitting zone. If he’d wait for his pitch, hitting fouls as required, I think frenchy would surprise even you … sometimes it’s almost like he feels that it’s his job to put every pitched ball, of those he thinks he can reach, in play.
I can’t agree with those who think that talented players can’t benefit from input and instruction, regardless of their level … if I were a star, making a nice piece of change, I’d have a personal coach 24-7 to help me stay on the top of my game.
By Bob, journalist
August 7, 2006 02:07 AM | Link to this
Moe, a good analysis, but while 12% is good; something in that range really should be an objective if not an expectation of most hitters … also, do you agree that “not striking out” has the potential to be benefical in many ways when a basehit is not the result?
Grinch, who’s jumping on Jimmy?
Carol’s calling … later.
By The Grinch
August 7, 2006 02:35 AM | Link to this
Journalist Bob, the Diane Lane posts around 10-15 or so. The second and third ones looked like they needed their buttocks kicked, unless I misunderstood. Anyhoo, time to eat a sandwich.
By Tomahawkin
August 7, 2006 03:21 AM | Link to this
Grinch, What is is baby? I just got back from a bar, and I’m f-c-k.ed up…. I still don’t think, the braves have a chance…
Until this team plays with some good consistancy… This team is done….I just don’t see the emotion or the spirit that the braves teams in the past have shown, when the fall behind like this…
And I seriously think that Roger McDowell should be fired after this season…
I’d Rather have Don Sutton As Pitching coach…
By Bob, journalist
August 7, 2006 03:25 AM | Link to this
Grinch, I generally pass such posts by … but just took a look and our impressions are similiar … I detected something odoriferous but couldn’t really acertain if it was just inexperienced and inept attempts at vulgar humor or something more sinister … but regardless, the fact that they were ignored at the time they were posted should send a signal that this is the place where the big dogs eat … no reason yet to call them out at this late hour.
You seem to be in good spirits … if my seventh sense is working properly.
By Tomahawkin
August 7, 2006 03:31 AM | Link to this
Well D.O.B. Godd to see ya back, I’m Glad to know that U Like the feedback from da Loyal Braves Fans…
I was seriously bull-shyting ya on You were smoking a fattie while you’re in Maui…Lol
I don’t see this team as playoff material, given how inconsistant we are as a team, but then again the Cardinals ever since July 1st look like a bunch of Jubronis, As The Rock would say….
But you Die hard bloggers know that I’m still gonna be loyal to my roots wheater we win or lose….
Go Braves!….
By chopthis
August 7, 2006 04:15 AM | Link to this
Dave,
Dion’s “King of the New York Streets” box set is a must-have. Every magical single the great man ever made, plus a lot more.
“Donna the Prima Donna” — perhaps the best arrangement ever put on record.
On his new CD, Dion brings a sense of unbridled joy to Hank Williams’ “Honky Tonk Blues” that must be heard to be believed.
My favorite of the later Johnny Cash covers is the rockin’ treatment JC and Tom Petty’s band give to the old country song “I Never Picked Cotton” from “American II.”
*And they’ll take me in the morning
To the gallows just outside
And in the time I got
There ain’t a hell of a lot
I can look back on with pride*
Awesome stuff.
Great music, banana pudding and baseball. Does this blog have it all or what?
By chopthis
August 7, 2006 04:22 AM | Link to this
Although JC’s cover of Waits’ “Down There By the Train” from “American Recordings” is pretty damn great, too.
And how can we forget “Hurt”? That video should have won some kind of special Oscar. Utterly moving.
And “Chuck E.’s in Love” by Rickie Lee Jones features a miraculous arrangement. But I still give the nod to Dion’s “Donna.”
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 07:58 AM | Link to this
The Andruw situation is a lot like the Betemit trade—many fans are having a hard time with objectivity, and rightfully so. Both AJ and Betemit are great players and came up with the Braves, so it is and would be hard to see them go. But the Braves are better off dealing them.
In Willy Aybar the Braves got a player that walks more, strikesout less and has similar extra-base power. Just look at both Aybar and Betemit’s numbers throughout their pro careers. You have to take a chance to improve the bullpen and you get a more than adequate replacement for Betemit.
As far as trading Jones, I believe they should handle it in much the same way the Red Sox handled the Johnny Damon situation: they set a price and stick with it. If Andruw goes too high with his demands, they trade him, preferrably before the ‘07 season. Andruw is going to be a very productive player for several more seasons, but he’s already peaked. And getting three good young players and/or top prospects would be better for the Braves in the long run.
Even the best players in baseball aren’t worth three good players. Look at the Mariners after Arod. They won 116 games because they spread that money around. The best teams realize this.
By Shaun Payne
August 7, 2006 08:12 AM | Link to this
I think Andruw’s situation is different than Chipper and Smoltz. If I’m not mistaken Chipper is signed for several more seasons. And Smoltz only wants to play two more seasons, at the most.
Yeah, it would probably be smart to trade Chipper but he’s going to remain productive and he’s going to be relatively cheap for a player with his production. And it would probably be smart to trade Smoltz, but he’s cheap for a starter of his quality even at his advanced age and his career is almost over anyway. Throw in the fact that teams aren’t likely to give up anything of value for Smoltz or Chipper, who are still making a nice chunk of change and are older.
I do think the Braves should make some moves that would allow Chipper to play first base. But it’s difficult to let LaRoche go right now because he’s cheap and rather productive.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 08:17 AM | Link to this
As far as Jeff Francouer, he’s not ready for the majors offensively. He’s an out machine but he’s very cheap and his defense is great. Hopefully he will develop enough plate discipline to be productive, but right now he should be in Triple-A honing his skills at the plate. He’s in the majors because the Braves feel he’s the best option at this point.
By Don
August 7, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this
Hey Dave, how did you go about picking a 12 game period to look at Betemit’s stats? Let me guess, you started right after that big hot streak he had.
Manipulating statistics to make the point you want to make reminds me of when you compared the Braves winning percentage starting after interleague play to the other wild card teams dating back to the beginning of interleague play.
Has Betemit run his team out of any potential big innings by missing second base?
By KC
August 7, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this
Shaun:
I disagree. Francoeur is definitely ready for the majors. He’s got a great chance to hit 30 homers and drive in 100 runs. That’s major league production… even if you do hit .250-260. And there’s nothing that hitting against AAA pitching is going to teach him at this point.
Having said that, I wish he would develop a little more plate discipline. He says he swings at the first pitch so often so he can put a pitch in play early and avoid falling behind in the count… yet every time I see him there’s a 1-2 count. He hits over .300 on the first pitch, but that’s a little deceiving, because he hardly ever puts tht first pitch in play (in fair territory). It seems to me that in 8 of every 10 at-bats, he fouls off the first pitch for strike 1.
I’ve heard it said that often at the major league level, you only get 1 “hitter’s pitch” (if that) per at-bat. When he leads the league in swinging at the first pitch… what in the world makes him think anyone’s going to give him something to hit on the first pitch????
By Don
August 7, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this
Since Dave is talking about what Betemit is hitting since his first two games for the Dodgers, I’m surprised he didn’t also mention that Aybar is hitting .167 since his first game with the Braves. That’s .167 with all singles.
Since the trade, Betemit’s OPS is .859, Aybar’s is .600.
By RockIt
August 7, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this
Fantastic blog (article) DOB. Very informative. Straight to the chase. Has Schultz seen it. He needs to. These self-important delusional sports writers and fans deeming themselves expert decision makers are full of themselves. They always know what’s best - don’t they? Bunch of CEO/GM wannabe’s. Freaking 12 year olds in the making. Their ignorant bravado is further evidence of the downfall of the eroding American empire.
Ohhhh. The Braves can’t explore opportunities. Ohhh. The Falcons haven’t signed a place-kicker. I wouldn’t! I would!
Schuerholz and McKay are paid big bucks to perform their duties. By all appearences, they attend to them regularly. And they seem to do them well, overall. Probably better than these hayseeds rent out U-Hauls, read gas meters, put up drywall, or whatever other mundane crap they do for a living. Most of ‘em anyway. Thanks again.
signed Black Sabbath The Red Hot Chili Peppers Suicidal Tendencies
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this
KC,
A major league rightfielder that posts an OBP under .300 is not productive. Just because you hit 30 homers and drive in 100 runs doesn’t make you a great hitter. RBI are largely a product of the hitters in front of you. See Joe Carter and Tony Bautista, who actually were below average hitters in seasons in which they were below average. Read the book Baseball Between the Numbers for more on that subject. And I’m sure you can find several articles about how overrated RBI is as a stat on the net if you search hard enough.
By Tony Almeida
August 7, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this
The sad thing about Franceour is that Bobby is standing behind his aggresiveness, says he wouldnt change a thing about him. Cox is supposed to be the one telling him to take a pitch or two, be more patient. Instead the lunk head just lets Frenchy strike himself out more often then not.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this
Don, glad to see you’ve moved on from your obsession with the Betemit trade (roll of the eyes).
Uh, dude, I was merely answering a post that said something along the lines of, “is it me or are Betemit and Furcal hitting all the time lately?”
So, should I have gone with Betemit’s stats lately, or his stats during his hot streak before that? Just set me straight, my man, because you are the authority on Betemit. That’s all yours.
By MEB
August 7, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this
Wow… I just knew that somehow Bobby Cox was responsible for Francouer’s strike out ratio. Dang that Bobby Cox! But, wait…
NEWS FLASH
CINCINNATI — With the Braves struggling with runners in scoring position for much of their six-game road trip, manager Bobby Cox pulled aside Jeff Francoeur on Saturday to offer his 22-year-old right fielder the kind of advice that only experience can bring. “Bobby talked to me on Saturday and said, ‘Keep your head up. You’ve come through a lot. You just got to stick with it,’” Francoeur said.
Jeff tied the game with his two run triple and scored the go-ahead run on Larouche’s sacrifice fly.
Hey, sounds like to me that Bobby is doing some coaching.
By Tony Almeida
August 7, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this
Uhhhh yeah, and how many men did he leave on base this weekend? Twice with the bases loaded? Yeah, that triple was Bobby’s coaching…i think not.
By Lew
August 7, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
Shaun-A couple of things. HR and RBI’s are significant. The opposite of RBI’s is the LOB stat. RBI’s mean you did your job and knocked those runners in. They pay players whole bunches of money (multiple millions, in fact) to pad these stats. Not productive? Another thing on the possible trade of Andruw, if and when it happens. Doesn’t anyone have a problem with WHO was offered for him? If you’re going to trade an MVP level player, who is a lock to hit 35-50 HR per season and 120 RBI (there’s that non-productive stat again), you damn well better get more than a not very durable outfielder and an unproven rookie pitcher with an ERA of 4.9 for him. What amazes me is that people (not necessarily you, Shaun) have been about to go into rapture over Crisp and Hansen. Let’s see if this is equitable- Andruw, consistently a HR hitter and RBI producer (over a long period of time), currently 2 or 3 in RBI and about to win his 9th consecutive Gold Glove, arguably the best center fielder ever. In return, Coco Crisp, who has never played more than 145 games in a season, misses an average of 25 games a season, missed over 40 games this year, who hits .251 against RHP in his career and hasnever stolen more that 20 bases in a season. Add to this mix, Hansen, a rookie pitcher with absolutely no track record and a lifetime ERA in the 5 run range and you’re all thrilled with this trade? Do you realise that JS asked for the inclusion of Lester, another pretty much unproven pitcher, albeit with apparent talent, and the talks were shut down. You better get value if you’re going to trade your best power hitter.
By KC
August 7, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this
Shaun:
I agree with you… a guy with an on-base percentage under .300 and a .250-.260 batting average is not great. I won’t argue with that at all. Francoeur has a chance to be great, be he’s clearly not there yet.
However, “Productive” and “great” are two different things. First you said he’s not “productive”, and then you said he’s not “great”. I agree with the latter, and disagree with the former. Francoeur is not great (at least not yet), but regardless of your on-base percentage, if you hit 30-HR/100-RBI, and playing a great right-field, you are a productive player. (unless of course you’re hitting close to the Mendoza line or something).
There’s a pretty wide gap between a great major league player and someone that belongs at AAA… Francoeur is somewhere in between right now.
And again I say… what do you think he would learn from hitting against AAA pitching??? He would hit .300-plus down there because AAA pitchers make more mistakes in the strike zone, and nothing would happen to teach him more plate discipline. Not only would that not help his development, but it would actually be counterproductive.
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this
Just because Bobby states publicly he wouldn’t change Frenchy doesn’t mean he tells him that. That’s just the front. Also, say what you will about RBI being overrated, if someone brings in runs, thats the name of the game. Especially if he saves a few with his glove and arm (see A. Jones!)
Everyone has been talking about the “hometown discount” Andruw gave-I remember until he took of mid season last year how everyone talked about how overpaid he was, that the Braves should have never given that big a contract, that long a deal, etc. Now that his numbers are up, revisionists talk about the bargain?
By Bo
August 7, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this
WHAT? Sosa got a save last night with Cards.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this
KC,
The Braves would be better off with a rightfielder that gets on base in more than 30 percent of his plate appearances. Francouer is not the worst rightfielder in baseball but he’s far from above average.
Lew,
RBI is an overrated stat, by baseball executives, writers, most fans, player, managers. They depend largely on where a player hits in a lineup and if the guys in front of that player get on base. That’s why David Ortiz has more RBI than Manny Ramirez, even though Manny is more productive. Manny has a higher AVG/OBP/SLG. The great players drive in more runs because most great hitters are behind high on-base guys in the middle of lineups. A players job is not to drive in runs or to score runs, it’s to create runs. And there’s no better way to create runs than to avoid outs, i.e, getting on-base.
On-base percentage is way more important than batting average. On-base correlates with winning better than any other percentage or rate stat, even ERA. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact. It’s been proven. The teams that get on base score the most runs, which makes a lot of sense if you think about it. There are teams who have solid batting averages that don’t score runs. There are teams with unspectacular batting averages that score a ton of runs. Batting average doesn’t take walks into account.
Really, read Baseball Between the Numbers. You’ll learn stuff that you never thought about.
By KC
August 7, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this
Yeah, if you hear Bobby say anything about a player in public, it’s always positive. He saves the constructive criticism for the closed door meetings… just as it should be.
By journalist jimmy smith
August 7, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this
journalist jimmy smith apologizes to all bloggers for the affectionate note from diane lane posted on this blog yesterday. infatuation sometimes causes lapse in judgement. the blog is not a proper forum for such displays of affection. this blog is more appropriate for baseball, music, pie, cheese, toes, seals, crows, country ham, banana pudding, aging bullpen coaches, nose picking, obliques, giraffes, tractors, dob’s horse, the old journalist, blue worms, hartebeests, watermelon, and pants. jimmysmiththinks journalist probably missed a few but you get the idea.
By Calvin
August 7, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this
Three inning save Bo.
By Don
August 7, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this
Dave, I missed the post you responded to on Furcal and Betemit. Your comment on Betemit’s numbers in the last several games was a fair response to that.
However, cherry picking the data to pull Betemit’s last few games with the Braves (starting immediately after his hot streak) and bundle them in with his time with the Dodgers was for no purpose other than to disparage Betemit. But even when you pick a stretch that makes Betemit look as bad as possible, when you factor in power his numbers look a helluva lot better than Aybar’s, don’t they?
You pointed out to me after Aybar’s first game that he had 4 hits. He’s had 4 singles in 24 at bats since then and you haven’t had much to say.
By the way, a guy who routinely uses statistics in a misleading way like you do shouldn’t be rolling his eyes at anybody.
By Carolina Lady
August 7, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this
‘Mornin’, Jimmy! I think someone is terribly jealous of you! That green monster makes some people do dispicable things when it gets the better of them.
:-))
By Knockahoma
August 7, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this
Hate to disagree with you guys but JS handled the AJ situation properly. If he contacted AJ, then other players would expect a call if their name is ever put on the list. JS did not want to set this new precedent.
That said, Braves need to rebuild. This team needs good young pitchers to be a contender again. What we have is an ineffective aging staff full of injuries. The eye for the future should be to have zero 30+ year old players making over $10M/year. That is the only way this team has any chance of making another run.
By journalist jimmy smith
August 7, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this
oh, carolina lady … good morning! this journalist is thinking seafood again but is so busy that journalist has not been able to get away. will you please order a seafood platter and enjoy it for cousin jimmy smith? maybe scribe can bring some shrimp when he comes. scribe will miss the seafood, right? yes, carolina lady, jimmy smith has jimmy smith’s detractors but usually not very smart ones. a good hartebeest could match ‘em in the classroom with better manners to boot. now, baseball … dan kolb is coming to town soon.
By MEB
August 7, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this
Brad Hawpe Col Shawn Green Ari Juan Encarnacion StL Jacque Jones ChC J.D. Drew LA
Bobby Abreu PHI/NYY Brian Giles SD Austin Kearns Cin Randy Winn SF
There you go, the top 9 right fielders in the NL, ranked by batting average. Tell me which ones you would trade straight-up for Francouer?
I would be hard pressed to take any two of them for Francouer. And all he really needs to learn is a little plate discipline. GEEEZZZZ!!!
By MEB
August 7, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this
Let me take that back, I would not trade Francouer, for any two of them.
By KC
August 7, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this
Ya know somethin’… Brian McCann has got to be the best kept secret in baseball.
He doesn’t quite have enough at-bats to show up on the leader-board for batting average, but he’s getting close to the number of at-bats he’ll need to show up there. As it stands, he would be leading the NL in BA at .343 and would be 3rd in MLB overall in that category.
AND, he’s really starting to show some power. Since July 1st (in 104 at-bats), McCann has hit 9 homers and has driven in 29 runs. I know projections are often kind of silly, but just to put it in prospective…
If you project his current season totals (277 at-bats so far) out to 520 at-bats, you’ll have 27 homers, 97 RBI. If you project his July/August production out to 520 at-bats, you’ll have 45 homers, 145 RBI. All that to go along with his .343 average.
Right now, all you hear about is Joe Mauer. Granted, Mauer is a great young player and certainly deserves the attention, but I would argue that what McCann’s done merits no less respect. Brian McCann is a good defensive catcher, and handles a pitching staff as well or better than any young catcher in the game. Also, he appears to have significantly more power than Mauer. McCann has 14 homers compared to Mauer’s 9, and Mauer’s been to the plate almost 100 more times than McCann this season (in addition to the fact that Mauer plays in a hitter’s stadium, and McCann in a pitcher’s park).
I think once he has enough at-bats to show up as the league-leader in batting average, people will start to take notice of him on a national scale, but right now it’s almost pathetic how little love McCann is getting from the national media.
By Sha
August 7, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this
MEB,
Again, batting average is only part of the story. On-base percentage is the most important stat in baseball because it correlates most with winning. That is a fact that’s been proven; I didn’t come up with that. It’s not my opinion.
Also, I wouldn’t trade Francouer for many players. While he’s not a good hitter now he’s still very young and could develop into a star. Players don’t peak generally until their late 20’s; again another fact that has been proven.
By KC
August 7, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
Shaun:
Please post your statistical formula that “proves” on-base percentage to be much more important to winning than RBI. I would be interested to see it.
By midnite
August 7, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this
What “hometown discount”? Andruw will make $13,500,000 in 2007. In my opinion AJ is extremely well paid. What is another million or so. Scott Rolen thumbed his nose at the Phillies offer of $140,000,000 and took less from the Cards after his trade to be closer to home. If an individual is “money oriented” or greedy they just go for the bucks. Agents and the players union promote the greedy attitudes and have really screwed up the game. See Furcal, Glavine, and Maddux if you need any references.
By Carolina Lady
August 7, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this
Seafood! The moon is about right for floundering; will load up the little boat and give it a try. Have some fresh shrimp just caught by another cousin. Home-made hushpuppies. Sounds like a winner to me! All in cousin Jimmy Smith’s honor! :-))
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this
MEB-halleleuh! Frenchy is my vote over any of those guys.
KC-I love McCann, but I’m not sure about the handling pitchers part. In case you hadn’t noticed, our pitchin SUCKS! I know he doesn’t throw the pitch that floats back over the middle of the plate, but to claim how well they’re handled doesn’t fly.
By Lew
August 7, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
Shaun-Actually, I believe you can probably use stats to prove anything you want, but I must take issue with you here (in a friendly way, of course.).There is a stat rarely used that might give a better indication of a player’s productivity. Runs+RBI-HR. This is the amount of run support a player is responsible for. You subtract HR, because a run and an RBI are added to your stats when you hit a HR. Now, you say OBP is more important than average and RBI. First, scoring runs is the name of the game. You don’t score runs, you don’t win. Period. No debate. That’s the way it is. Your productivity therefore is based on runs scord or RBI. I don’t understand how you can dispute this. Batting average leads to OBP, so I don’t know how you can dispute it either. The higher a player’s BA, the more often he is on base.QED. Now if you look at the Braves, McCann, Renteria and Chipper have the highest batting averages AND the highest OBP-McCann .399 OBP, Renteria .384 and Chipper a whopping .421. Andruw’s OBP is.357 and Francoeur’s a paltry .279. However, if you look at the runs produced stat, you get a different read, altogether. McCann is responsible for 77 runs, Renteria 107, Chipper 107, Francoeur 116 and Andruw 135 (through yesterday’s game). Gee, for some reason this is the opposite of your OBP stat. The difference is that being on base only gives you the OPPURTUNITY to score-doesn’t mean you WILL score. My stat, however, shows what a player actually produces. It’s kind of like the Braves winning 14 straight, but only one WS title. Just getting to the playoffs gives you the oppurtunity to win, but doesn’t guarantee you will. Francoeur is apparently more productive than anyone but Andruw.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
KC,
People have actually looked at teams that win for pretty much every season in history and the most common rate or percentage stat that they lead the league in is on-base percentage. Baseball Dynasties by Rob Neyer and Eddie Epstein is an excellent book where you can read about on-base percentage correlating with wins.
It makes a lot of sense if you think about it; baserunners lead to runs and runs lead to wins.
By journalist jimmy smith
August 7, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
serious baseball talk from journalist jimmy smith: journalist was reading about the cycling star who tested positive for high levels of testosterone and has now been banished from his team and likely will be stripped of his win of the tour de france. zero tolerance in cycling. why does baseball permit cheating? a corked bat is worse than a corked player?
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this
midnite, you echo something I see here often, that Maddux was greedy. He left BECAUSE THE BRAVES DIDN’T MAKE HIM AN OFFER! Sure would have been nice to have someone win their 300th in a Brave uni. Niekro didn’t, Mad dog didn’t, Glavine (if he gets there) won’t. Glavine=greedy (plus a lying agent) Furcal=pretty greedy, but who could blame him-no one else would give him that money. Maddux-probably greedy, but who knows?
By KC
August 7, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
Rodger:
In case you haven’t noticed, 9 times out of 10 when our pitchers get hit hard, you will see a great number of pitches that cross the plate on a trajectory that takes them (or would take the pitch if it didn’t wind up in the bleachers) nowhere near McCann’s glove. In other words, if they can’t throw the damn ball where they’re supposed to, that’s not McCann’s fault.
The coaching staff and veteran pitchers in Atlanta have raved since his arrival about McCann’s ability to call a game from behind home plate. And I think guys like John Smoltz, Bobby Cox, and Leo M. (last year) have been around enough good pitching to know a well called game when they see it.
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
Excellent analysis Lew!
By Dave
August 7, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
RE Franceour’s exploits on Sunday:
BOTTOM LINE: He came through and WON the game for us with that triple! He has done that several times this year, and will continue to do it, hopefully for the next decade or so.
NO ONE comes through every time! Not Johnny Bench or Reggie Jackson or Pete Rose or Joe Morgan or Henry Aaron or Derek Jeter or David Ortiz! Modern pitchers throw too hard and with too much control for it to be any other way.
Does Franceour need to show more plae discipline?? Absolutely, but that will come with age and experience. When that happens, we will have another Dale Murphy on the Braves.
Just my humble opinion!
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this
KC, I agree with what you’re saying almost completely. Just kind of goes back to the TP discussion waayy above.
By KC
August 7, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this
Shaun, I’m not minimizing the importance of having guys on base. There’s no way you can win without getting people on base. You’re not going to get 4-5 solo homers a night.
But part “B” of that equation is that you need player who are adept at driving in those runners once they get on base. Obviously, you love to have both. That’s what makes Chipper such a great player (when he’s healthy). He can drive in runs, but you also feel pretty good about him leading off an inning.
Obviously, everyone (the Braves, Braves fans, Delta Airlines) is anxious to see Francoeur realize his full potential by raising the averages (batting/on-base), and I think that will come with time. For right now, we’ve got an inexpensive player who plays a great right field, hits 30/100, and sells a few extra t-shirts at the clubhouse store.
The Braves will take that.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this
Lew,
RBI and runs depend on the hitters around you. They are not true measure of an individual hitters production.
And I agree that it’s obviously good to have a high batting average but batting average doesn’t take into account walks. On-base percentage takes walks and hits into account.
People don’t go into a study and say, let me see if I can correlate on-base percentage with wins. They went in asking a question like “What correlates with winning and what makes a team a good one?” They found the answer to be on-base percentage, with concern to percentage and rate stats.
I also agree that stats can be useless and many people misuse stats. But if you actually know what you’re doing, stats are the best tool to judge players that we have available. It’s really not about stats; it’s about finding answers to questions about player performance. Stats are simply the best tool we have to judge players objectively. I highly recommend Baseball Between the Numbers.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this
Lew,
On-base percentage also is a measure of efficiency; it measure how good your team is at avoiding outs.
Outs are a precious resource in baseball because you only get three per inning and you have to score as many runs as possible before you make three outs. So avoiding outs is the most important thing you can do to guarantee you’ll score runs. Avoiding outs means not only getting hits (batting average) but getting hits and walking (on-base percentage).
The reason the Red Sox are breaking offensive records the last few years is because they fill their lineup with guys that avoid outs (get on base) and when they get hits they are usually extra-base hits…and they don’t waste outs by choice with sacrifice bunts.
By Carolina Lady
August 7, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this
cousin Jimmy, I’m in agreement about the drug/steroid issue. Some say that the drugs don’t make them better hitters. I would respectfully respond: well, how many of those warning-track balls went out of the park because of drug-induced strength?? That’s cheating anyway you slice it. If one is a cheater, he has dishonored himselfself and should be stripped of all awards, honors, records, etc.
That applies to all fields, all endeavors. But worst of all is to have given up one’s personal integrity and honor; once character is destroyed, it is almost, if not completely, impossible to regain it. It has been written that a good name is to be treasured more than silver and gold. True words.
By KC
August 7, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this
Does anyone know what the formula is for determining whether or not a player has enough at-bats to show up on the any of the statistical leader-boards?
Does MLB set a certain benchmark (# of AB’s) daily or each week or what?
McCann’s got to be getting fairly close. He’s got 277 at-bats, and there’s a guy listed on the BA leader-board with 302 at-bats.
By Tony Almeida
August 7, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this
Brian McCann would have enough at bats to qualify for the batting title if the doofus Cox would quit benching him every 3 or 4 games.
By Lew
August 7, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this
Shaun-When was the last time Billy Beane made it to the series? His division title? For that matter, the playoffs? If you go back and check out all of those winning teams with high OBP, what was their pitching staff like? I’ll bet they all had killer pitching, too. What was their run scored differential? I’m saying that OBP MAY lead to runs scored. In a way you’re right, if you are on base you have the chance to score runs. However, you do no good to your team in the form af a run scored, if the guys behind you don’t knock you in- unless you steal second, third and home. A player’s productivity in this case is wholly dependent on that player being knocked in. NO RBI, no run scored. Where does your OBP get you then? Another thing. Players like Francoeur can score runs even WITHOUT men on base. It’s called a solo HR. The bottom line on all successful teams is NOT OBP, but the fact that they scored more runs than the other team. I guarantee you ALL winning teams have done this-not just the ones with high OBP. I would say that 100% of all winning teams scored more runs. Can you say the same for OBP?
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this
gee, we all talk about Francoeur having more plate discipline, better strike zone recognition, better at-bat game plans, etc., as if he could just wake up one day (or listen to a hitting coach, or make a contribution to his favorite charity, or SOMETHING) and all that stuff would come to magically exist. And, hey, I’m including myself in the roar of that crowd, too. But, folks, I think Chipper is one of the more intelligent hitters I’ve seen in recent years, and he didn’t .330 his first year (don’t remember what he actually did hit, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t all that gonzo). If Jeff still has an OBP of .280 when he’s had 1800 AB in the bigs, then you can start worrying. But until then, it’s just growing pains, live with it, get over it, deal with it.
By pzbrawl
August 7, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this
There are three kinds of sprotswriters, those who can count and those who can’t.
By KC
August 7, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this
What’s up with Braves’ cast-aways going to Texas and hitting .300 (Gary Mathews Jr., Mark Derosa)?
That’s got to be the same thing other teams (including the Rangers) were saying throughout the years about unsuccessful pitchers leaving for Atlanta and pitching well for the Braves.
By Lew
August 7, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this
Shaun-The Red Sox won because they score more runs than anyone else, not because they get on base more. How many games have you seen when teams have 12 or 14 hits in a game and only score 2 or 3 runs. Where is your OBP getting you there. Not a win. You must score runs to win games-not just get on base.
By johnmrog
August 7, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this
If the Braves aren’t able to trade Andruw in the offseason, kiss him goodbye after 2007, with nothing but a compensatory draft pick (between the 1st and 2nd rounds) in return.
By midnite
August 7, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this
Rodger, let me put it this way. Maddux and Boras shafted the Braves by waiting until the last minute to accept arbitration($18,000,000). We had to ship Millwood off to the Phils because of those guys. I stand by my comment they are greedy.
By KC
August 7, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
pzbrawl:
I don’t think we have long-term commitments to any of the players you mentioned beyond next season. I believe Renteria, C.Jones, and Hampton all have 2 years left on their contracts after this one. Except maybe Tim Hudson who has 3 more years left after this one.
But after next season, we could no longer consider them long-term contracts (only 1-2 years left at that point).
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this
KC, to qualify for leaders in an offensive category, player must have a minimum of 3.1 plate appearances for each game his team has played.
By Shaun Payne
August 7, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this
Lew,
There are certain things that can increase your chances for success in the post-season, and having top-notch pitching is one of them, but it’s largely luck. Anything can happen in a short series. On-base percentage correlates with winning better than any single percentage or rate stat. I’m sure run differential is the mark of a good team, but that’s not really a percentage or rate stat. And many times teams with great run differentials have lost in the post-season. Again, the book Baseball Between the Numbers addresses the topic of Billy Beane and post-season success also. It really is the most informative book I’ve read about baseball so far and I’m not even half way through it.
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this
pzbrawl, I saw that, but DOB just got back from vacation-I cut him some slack!
By Lew
August 7, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this
Johnmrog-You get a compensatory draft pick AND the $13.5 million you paid him in 07. In addition, you have him in 07 for another potential MVP season. You still get a player in return, the $$$ and a superstar for an extra year that you didn’t have to go out and rent, giving up players to get him. Big deal. The real problem is replacing him. This is something you won’t do if he’s traded for anyone mentioned to this point.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this
Shaun, it is a good book, but make sure you read more than one opinion before solidifying your own. That’s just good research methodology.
By KC
August 7, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
johnmrog:
I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate. The Braves will probably be in a position to offer him 15 mill a season, and that may very well be enough to re-sign him. That will be up to Andruw. He might get a 16-17 million a year offer from one of the major market teams, but if he really wants to stay in ATL… 15 mill a season should be plenty.
They shouldn’t have any trouble offering him that kind of contract. Especially if they can get him to defer 3-5 mill of that in the first year of a new contract (2008). That’s because after 2008, both C.Jones, and Hampton’s contracts will expire. And besides, he’s already making 13.5 mill next year. It’s not like 15 mill a season would be a huge pay raise from what Atlanta’s paying him on the back end of his current deal.
If Atlanta decides to keep one or both of them around, it will likely be for significantly less money. Given Chipper’s injury proneness, which probably won’t improve with age, his price tag will come down considerably. And I think that unlike Tom-show-me-the-money-Glavine, Chipper will want to do whatever he can to retire a Brave.
Anyway, long story short… unless Andruw chases every last dollar to NY or LA, the Braves should be able to lock him up for a while after next season if that’s what they want to do.
By KC
August 7, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this
nscoots, thank you!
By ILL-logical
August 7, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this
DOB, Warm regards. Interesting question? Who “leaked” the AJ waiver wire info? And why; Boston had no interest as you have pointed out since it would have hindered their ability to the deal. Methinks there is another cage rattling episode going on here in a lame attempt to cover some anterior position. It certainly kept the Bettiment story out of the headlines.
As has been stated befor,JS has not managed the resources well for the last 5 years:the assumption of Mike Hamton’s no trade clause:Dan Kolb and the bullpen in general ;and the continued structuring of a ballclub that relys on the three run homer/ 2.00 ERA staff to the exclusion of speed and small ball capacities.
He keeps doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.
By Lew
August 7, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this
Shaun Payne- (I like that name, my Mom’s family was Payne). I still contend that if you don’t score runs, you don’t win. I really think that the irreducible point of view here is concentrating too much on a particular stat. Any stat. It takes a combination of factors to win, but if you don’t score runs, one thing is certain-you will not win. In this blog, Ive seen many opinions put forth about what it takes to win. Some say pitching. Some say POWER pitching. Some advocate small ball, while others are all for the Murderer’s Row or AL approach to winning. Some claim it is defense, others defense up the middle. Some say speed at the top. Others wait for the three run HR. The only unifying factor in any of these scenarios, however, is that the team must score runs to win. To be sure, you can find teams that have won utilizing any or all of these approaches, but I will bet you that all of the winners scored more runs. Bottom line. No dispute. No room for argument. Give me more players that get the runs accross home plate and I will show you a winning team, regardless of OBP or any other stat.
By NYFAN
August 7, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this
Question for brave fans…Are the NY Mets going to represent the National League in the World Series? If you think not who will and why but you can’t use the “I hate the Mets” for a reason.
By Sammy Kershaw
August 7, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
There are 2 kinds of people in this world. People that like Neil Diamond and damned liers.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this
Lew, agreed. You win by scoring more runs than the other guy…which is why I say that speed and “small ball” are not only overrated, but counter-productive in baseball’s offensive environment of today. Whether it’s because of the dilution of major league pitching, or stadium configurations, or strength training, or whatever, this is an era of 6-5, not 3-2. You say the White Sox did it last year? Yes, and immediately after, got a masher for the middle of their lineup. And if you look at their team today, you’ll see that that is their offensive strategy…crush it.
I’m not that big on sabermetrics, but, in this area, I tend to agree with the philosophy that you must be highly successful in stealing bases (> 70%) to create more runs than you will lose by being unsuccessful. It’s just the times we live in, people.
And my usual disclaimer: “small ball” is not the same thing as “fundamental ball”.
By Tony Almeida
August 7, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this
The St Louis Cardinals will represent the National League in the world series. Reason being, I hate the Mets.
By Sammy Kershaw
August 7, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
Hey Don why dont you do everyone a favor and go jump off a bridge.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this
Lew,
Tell me another way you can score runs besides getting on base and I’ll believe on-base percentage is unimportant. You can reach on an error, but how many errors do you see? Maybe one or two a game at most. You can reach on a fielders choice, but someone had to get on base for a fielders choice to occur.
Keep in mind that homeruns count in on-base percentage.
By KC
August 7, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this
NYFAN:
My general position has been that the Mets don’t have the starting pitching to make it to the World Series this year, but… then again… who in the NL is any better?
With the exception of the Mets, the NL is a collection of mediocre baseball teams. The NL West leading Padres are a slightly above-average team at best. The Cardinals are a shell of their former selves.
The truly believe that the Braves are the only team (other than the Mets) that have the talent and potential to be an excellent ball club. But obviously, that hasn’t happened. The bullpen cost Atlanta 20-plus wins this season. That problem is fixed, but we’re still not where we need to be. The main things hurting Atlanta right now are the injury to Chipper and the underperformance of Tim Hudson. If both of those things turned around for the Braves fairly quickly, I think would come back to win the Wild Card, and would give the Mets a run for their money in the post-season. But I’m not betting money on either of those things (Chipper’s health or Hudson’s consistency).
I guess if I had to predict the NL WS representative right now, I couldn’t pick anyone other than the Mets. Although, I have to say that you Mets fans had better hope and pray that Glavine gives you something more in October than he gave us in he last couple of seasons here. In his last season with the Braves, 2002, he single handedly lost the Division Series to the Giants in what was then probably our best opportunity in years to win another World Series. Cross your fingers when he takes the mound in Oct.
By KC
August 7, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
Sammy Kershaw:
I guess I’m a liar. Sorry.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
Lew,
Your example of a team getting 13 or 14 hits and scoring 2 or 3 runs happens, what, maybe a handful of times every year?
And, yes, 13 or 14 singles are not as valuable as 13 or 14 homers, which brings us to on-base plus slugging, the best measure of production. I’m sure if that were considered a single rate/percentage stat, that would be the best measure of run scoring.
By journalist jimmy smith
August 7, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this
journalist dob often refreshes this blog with good, statistical data … but it is true that dob will occassionally confuse three and four. this was pointed out yesterday and again today by discerning bloggers. three is how many strikes are needed to retire a batter and how many outs are required to retire a side. four is one more than three. when saying “there are three players who” … one must not name four players who … unless “four players who” are denoted as more than three players who … journalist jimmy smith thinks dob retains all journalistic integrity even through this confusion of three and four. dob remains a contender (always wanted to be a contend-uh) for the esteemed wurlitzer prize and perhaps a contender for the future affections of diane lane. journalist jimmy smith remembers the one unforgivable dob miscue of “has did”. has did will not lead to a wurlitzer and its use is best forgotten never to be brought up again in dob’s blog. still, the dob post above was insightful and lengthy enough to be the last word, so dob is okay in this journalist’s book. p.s. the old journalist has a problem with one and two of late which makes the old journalist a less desirable traveling companion. cheese will take its tole. a final thought, rumors of a player with toe count issues were dispeled in this very blog, and does everyone realize the person counting toes was the same journalist with the three and four issues? not suggesting anything, just noting. toes are not to be trifled with.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this
toes are good, always assuming the abscence of banana pudding on them, with or without meringue.
By KC
August 7, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this
nscoots
Thanks for passing along that formula, but the more I think about it, the more I’m convinced it can’t be correct (3.1 at-bats for every game the team has played).
Brian Clark is listed on the leader-board for batting average at MLB.com with 302 at-bats, but his team (the Brewers) has played 111 games. That’s only 2.72 at-bats per game that the Brewers have played.
With that equation, 500 at-bats wouldn’t be enough for a player to qualify over a full 162 game season.
By Carolina Lady
August 7, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this
Jimmy, I’m glad you claried that!
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
KC, no, no, plate APPEARANCES, not at-bats.
By NYFAN
August 7, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
Tony Almeida you can’t use Hating the Mets. It’s too easy for you. KC, Yes I agree the National League is weak but I don’t see any team beating the Mets for the pennant. The American League has more of everything. Pitching, Slugging and Defense but I thing the Mets can make a series out of it. They do have a good line up and team speed.
By Shaun Payne
August 7, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this
A Challenge to anyone who thinks on-base percentage is not the most important single offensive rate/percentage stat in baseball
Name another way to score a run besides reaching base.
Errors do not count in on-base percentage but how many errors do you see a game? Maybe one or two. And a player can reach by a fielder’s choice but someone had to reach base for a fielder’s choice to occur. And a player can be hit by a pitch, but the average is probably around one hit batsman per game or less. And keep in mind homeruns count in on-base percentage.
By Tony Almeida
August 7, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this
Of course it’s easy, why would I make it hard? On second thought, if the Braves don’t make it, I really don’t care who goes. I’ll be rooting for anybody playing the Yankees.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this
Shaun, even Bill James doesn’t believe in the “Great Statistic”, a single, most-important, be-all-end-all thing. We get the fact that you think it’s VERY, VERY important. Really. So who do you want to trade today? :-)
By Marty
August 7, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the blog, Dave — I feel much better now.
By Hal
August 7, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
Lew hit the bottom line right on the head! the problem is replacing him and there is NO replacing him
He is simply the best defensive outfielder in the last 30 years who happens to hit 30 to 40 homeruns and drive in 120 runs a year
Replace that with what Coco Crisps 260 batting average and average defence?Gimme a break
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
I think the formula takes into account plate appearances, not just at bats.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this
Don, the Betemit trade wasn’t a straight-up deal. I say this only because you clearly don’t realize they also got a reliver, Danys Baez, in the deal, to shore up a major weakness in the bullpen for a stretch run THIS SEASON. Since they’ve lost more than they’ve won since he got here _ with Baez having nothing to do with any of the losses _ the stretch run now looks less likely than ever. But at the time, the Braves certainly had a decent shot at the wild card, and they were both trying to win this season (the Baez part of the trade) and hoping to fill a need in the future (the Aybar part).
I’ll leave my own opinions of Betemit _ like him a lot as a person, and his bat has really come around _ out of this response when I asked a Braves official about him following the trade: This person told me that all the Braves scouts and others who discussed the trade agreed that Betemit was not a viable option for second base with the Braves (too big and not quick enough) and that, while he was hitting much better, in the past two years he’d lost so much of the athleticism that made him a No. 1 prospect _ lost so much of it, that he now couldn’t be expecrted even to advance from first to third on a single, or to score from second base.
Those are things that don’t show up in stats, but things that are considered in these matters. Again, that’s not me talking, whether you choose to believe it or not. That’s baseball people with far more knowledge than me or you will ever have.
By journalist jimmy smith
August 7, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this
carolina lady, happy to clary! :-) now, scoots … meringue on the banana pudding may be the culprit in the sometimes testiness of dob. not sure, but possible. still, if dob’s mama made banana pudding with meringue journalist understands fully dob’s preference. this is much like the preparation of matooke and the argument of whether or not to include meat in the steamed plantain leaf. jimmy smith will not even get into the preparation of katogo and the mixed grille. some like creamy peanut butter, some like crunchy, some just pack in the cheese.
By John E.
August 7, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
WHERE ARE ALL THE FRANCOEUR CRITIC AFTER HE TIES THE GAME HITTING THE FIRST PITCH YESTERDAY? Yes, I sometimes wish Jeff would be a little more selective at the plate, but it’s much more complex than we think. In little league we were taught to get a strike before you swing. This IS NOT LITTLE LEAGUE. Jeff may need to be more selective, but he can’t go up to the plate with a decision to never swing at the first pitch. On Friday night he hit a monster homerun swinging at the FIRST PITCH. On Sunday he drives in two runs with a triple by swinging at the first pitch. I believe he needs to be situataionally selective; taking a pitch when the pitcher has just walked the previous batter, or has control problems. However, don’t take away his aggressive approach. I believe in time, with experiece (remember he’s only been in the league about a year), he’ll be a very good, maybe even great player. He’s already better than a great number of players. I’ll take 30 homers and 100 RBI from a 21 year old any time!
By mart
August 7, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this
Dave, I’d appreciate your take on the rumor circulating that the Braves are going to move to San Antonio after they’re sold.
By Hazel Lewiss
August 7, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this
I so enjoyed the article in yesterdays sport page on Bobby Dews. Is there a way to get a message to him by e-mail?
By Hazel Lewis
August 7, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this
I so enjoyed the article in yesterdays sport page on Bobby Dews. Is there a way to get a message to him by e-mail?
By KC
August 7, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
nscoots:
Sorry, my mistake.
By hop on chop
August 7, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this
Francoeur will be just fine, as long as the Braves only bat him against Majewski. Face it — if the Reds throw anybody but that absolute bum out there in the 8th, the Braves get swept for sure.
I’m not smart enough to know who’s the better player between Betemit and Aybar, but I do know the Dodgers are undefeated since the trade and the Braves are still floundering, and Betemit and Co. are looking down at the Braves in the standings.
And Betemit hasn’t missed second base yet.
By KC
August 7, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this
NYFAN:
I think the Mets could make a series of it only if their starting pitching picks it up a notch. Again, unfortunately (for Mets fans) Glavine has made a habit in recent years of falling apart in October. Then you’ve got rely on Hernandez or Tracshel. Just keep your fingers crossed that those guys can give you some quality starts and give your offense and bullpen a chance to win ballgames for you.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this
I have no idea what you guys are talking about on the three/four stuff. Please clary.
Also, Don, meant to say “reliever” in my post, not “reliver.” didn’t want to give you any more irrelevent ammo to throw back in my face, since I’m sure you’ll dispute everything else I said, including what was told to me by the team official.
By KC
August 7, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this
John E:
I am not a Francoeur critic, except for his unwillingness to take a pitch unless it’s at least 18 inches off the plate (and he swings at some of those too). I like Frenchy. But I do have to point out in fairness that while he did get a big hit yesterday… it was just a day earlier that he ground into a bases loaded double play in the 9th to end that game.
By hop on chop
August 7, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this
Dave,
I’m sure the Dodgers “basbeall people” had good reasons for valuing Betemit over Aybar, so get both sides of the story.
And judging from yesterday, apparently Aybar has some major problems going from first to third as well.
By hop on chop
August 7, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this
Dave,
I’m sure the Dodgers’ “baseball people” had some good reasons to value Betemit over Aybar, so give both sides of the story.
And judging by yesterday’s game, apparently Aybar has some problems with going from first to third on a single as well.
Can’t believe you’d bring THAT up in Aybar’s defense.
By Antonio McNugget
August 7, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this
I cant find this Dews article on the AJC page. Maybe i am overlooking it. Anyone have a link?
By KC
August 7, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this
Ya know, the more I think about it, the more I don’t want to see Giles traded this winter. I hope we keep him. We should have the budget to keep him around, and now that he’s back in the #2 spot in the lineup, I’m reminded why we want him on this team.
My hope now is that we can get a leadoff hitter in LF, so that we can continue to bat Giles 2nd (Renteria 3rd, Chipper 4th, Andruw 5th, and so on). But one thing’s for sure, it would have to be darn good leadoff hitter to justify trading Scott Thorman or taking away his chance to play nearly everyday.
The only problem with a lineup like that would be that it’s hard to imaging batting a hitter like LaRoche in the 8-hole in any lineup. He’s currently hitting 7th, so if you moved everyone else down a spot, that’s where LaRoche would wind up hitting. You could hit “Rochy” 7th and Francoeur 8th, but then you give up your lefty/righty balance as McCann and LaRoche would be hitting back to back (6th/7th) in the lineup.
If we don’t keep Giles around, maybe we could include him in a package to get Brian Roberts from Baltimore. But I would still love to see us keep him here in Atlanta.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this
Hop on chop, I cover the Braves, not the Dodgers. You want Dodgers’ officials thoughts on Betemit? Probably be best to try to find that on the Dodgers blog. He’s a Dodger now.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this
better to clary when queried, else to risk the queryer becoming querulous …
By The Grinch
August 7, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
Morning, All! DOB, I thought Dion died about 30 years ago; glad to hear he’s still alive and making music. All the more facinating considering he had one of those voices that made one think “yeah, that sounds cool, but he won’t even be able to talk when he’s 40.” Kind of like Tom Waits. I’ll have to check that out. T’hawkin’, you just missed me last night. You always seem to show up about 20 minutes after I get fed up and crash out. Ncscoots, I’m not certain, but I think Diane Lane’s toes would probably be good with bananna pudding. Carolina Lady, what does the left field wall at Fenway park have to do with jealousy? :-) Lew, you’re arguing against a brick wall.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this
Oh, and hop on chop, I didn’t bring THAT up in Aybar’s defense. I didn’t mention Aybar when I said Betemit couldn’t go from first to third on a single anymore. And are you really that clueless that you don’t understand the difference between missing the base by a few inches and not having the speed/athleticism to get from first to third on a single? Really? Are you? I don’t think you are.
By KC
August 7, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this
To follow up on my last post…
The 8th slot in a NL lineup is the toughest place in the lineup to hit. You rarely see anything good to hit with the pitcher hitting right behind you.
But Francoeur is actually the type of guy that could proper in the 8th slot because he swings at everything anyway. I’m not trying to be funny when I say that… I mean it. Frenchy has got a little bit of Vlad Geurerro in him in that just because you throw the pitch out of the strike zone doesn’t mean he won’t still drill it. Obviously Francoeur is not as accomplished as Vlad just yet, but he’s go that same incredibly large hitting zone. And the ability to expand your hitting zone beyond the strike zone is a skill that every 8th hitter has to have to be successful.
I think we should go get a leadoff hitter (a good one) this winter for left field, and bat LaRoche 7th, Francoeur 8th.
By The Grinch
August 7, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this
Y’all are ruthless on DOB. I expect if we typed as much as he did we’d probably make a few more errors than we do. That said, I WOULD like for someone to clary what clary means…:-)
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
KC- Dream on! Chipper won’t hit anywhere but 3rd, even tho he may not be able to motor that fast any more.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this
wait, wait, wait…everybody else is screaming for Jeff to have MORE plate discipline, and you think he’ll “prosper” in a slot that will make him EXPAND his zone?!? KC, buddy, I have GOT to have some of your meds!
By Don
August 7, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this
Dave, thank you for your explanation of the Braves position on Betemit. Sincerely, I mean that. I’d rather see a factual explanation of what they see as his shortcomings than the little backhanded digs at him, such as JS’s smarmy “We like Aybar as much as Betemit” comment that in my opinion was crap intended for JS to show us what a genius he was to swap equivalent infielders and get Baez (which is obviously what he was trading for) as a bonus. It’s an insult to Betemit and to the Dodger’s GM on the other side of the trade. I thought Betemit was professional while he was here and was much more productive this year filling in at 3 positions than anybody could reasonably expect. He deserved better than JS’s comment when he was traded.
Was Betemit a viable option as an everyday second baseman? I have no reason to doubt the Braves organization that he wasn’t. However, I have every reason to doubt their assertion that Aybar is any better at second than Betemit. The Dodgers had him in their organization and didn’t think so. They had a hole at second base (now filled with converted shortstop Lugo who they traded for). Aybar himself thinks third is his best position.
I think Betemit has a CHANCE (not a certainty) to be a productive enough hitter to be an everyday third baseman in the big leagues. The size he’s picked up that has cost him some speed and agility has also increased his power production. I don’t see that many switch hitters who can drive the ball to all fields from both sides. At worse he is a switch hitting utility infielder with pop in his bat who can back up short, second and third. I don’t see a lot of others like him.
With the limited power he’s exhibited to date in his career, Aybar can’t be an everyday corner infielder for a big league team. And he apparently can’t back up short at all, so that means an extra utility infielder on the roster who is typically a poor pinch hitting option (see guys like Tony Pena, Jr., Pete Orr).
The big issue I have with the trade is that I thought the Braves were a 50:1 shot to win the wild card when the deal was made. They’re in a race with 10 teams and being 4-5 games back with that many teams was a huge hill to climb given that we’re starting Tim Hudson and Jason Shiell (or an equivalent) two days out of every five. Chuck James isn’t a proven big league pitcher. HoRam is 3rd-4th starter quality in my opinion. Smoltz isn’t the Smoltz of 3-4 years ago. He can no longer throw a fast ball past a good hitter in a hitter’s count. The Braves weren’t going to play .650-.700 baseball with that starting rotation.
So I viewed the acquisition of Baez, a 60 day rental, as essentially worthless. And Baez was clearly the focus of the trade for the Braves, with Aybar thrown in as a poor man’s Wilson Betemit because the Dodgers had no place for him. They had holes at second and third and had quit playing him.
If Baez had been under contract through next year at a reasonable price I’d have been OK with the trade.
The other comment I didn’t buy was that the Braves still liked the deal after Chipper went down. I suspect the deal was sealed, waiting announcement, and they couldn’t back out. (I’m not questioning that the Braves organization tells you otherwise, I’m questioning whether they mean it when they say it.) Because not only did losing Chipper mean Aybar instead of Betemit, it also lowered the already faint odds of winning the wild card and made the rental of Baez worth even less.
By KC
August 7, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this
Rodger, Chipper will hit wherever he’s asked to hit. He’s not a clubhouse cancer. He’s not going sit in the dugout and pout because he’s being asked to hit 4th instead of 3rd.
You might remember that he batted 4th for two seasons while Sheffield was with Atlanta a few years ago.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this
Also, I’m not sure that I would agree that Francoeur swings at “everything”. I do think he was doing that at the beginning of the year, and then progressed to swinging at (mostly) strikes. But learning the difference between pitchers’ strikes and hitters’ strikes is a big part of the learning curve. Just give the kid some more AB, he’ll figure it out (or he won’t…that scenario exists, too, I guess).
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this
I think Francouer will prosper once he cuts his strikeouts down and learns to walk 30-40 times a year. If you don’t walk, you have to make contact more often than most players. He’s going to have to bat at least close to .300 if he’s not going to walk.
By KC
August 7, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
nscoots:
No. My point was that Francoeur’s hitting zone is already expanded. I’m saying that unlike many players who have to expand their hitting zone when they bat 8th in a lineup, Francoeur wouldn’t have to, it’s pretty much there already.
Most people don’t put up the same numbers hitting 8th as they would if they were batting further up in the order. Again, that’s because they don’t see many “hitter’s pitches” hitting in front of the pitcher. But Francoeur already doesn’t see many hitter’s pitches because he doesn’t wait for them.
All I’m saying is that Frenchy wouldn’t have to change a thing to hit in the 8 slot, and unlike most players, his numbers would be minimally impacted by hitting in the 8th slot.
And keep in mind that I’m not saying that I want to see Francoeur hitting 8th. I’m just saying that if we got a leadoff hitter in LF, and moved everyone else down in the order, it would come down to either LaRoche or Francoeur hitting 8th. Between the two of them, I think Frenchy would be a better choice for the 8 hole.
By Braves20
August 7, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this
DOB - Thanks for your take on the L.A. trade. You’ve got to think that the Betemit - Aybar trade probably works out as a push (maybe, but I think three years from now, we’re happy we have #14). But as you point out we get Baez - even if he’s an ‘06 rental which says advanatge Braves. If we hold on to him (and Wickman) no contest as to who gets the best deal.
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this
No, I think Chipper has made quite clear his position on where he will hit, and where he will play (DOB?). Not that its a complaint. I think, when he’s in the lineup and mostly healthy, a more productive 3 hole hitter, especially before this last malady, would be hard to find.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this
And, hitting Andruw fifth instead of fourth would cost him about 80 AB a year. Don’t know if I’d like that very much.
By KC
August 7, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this
Rodger:
When did Chipper say “I’m only hitting 3rd, and I refuse to hit anywhere else?” Never. He never said it.
Chipper will gladly hit 4th if he feels it’s best for the team. But even if he doesn’t do it gladly, he’ll hit 4th if that’s how BC fills out the lineup card, period.
By Braves20
August 7, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
KC - Amen to your comment. In the last ten years (including this one) name a better #3 hitter in the business? Also good point that he did step out of the three hole when Sheffield was here for two years. And seem to remember a tour in LF too. It burns me when people brand he and Smoltz as selfish with all they have done for this team - often at the expense of their own glory.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this
Chipper hits third because he’s the best combination of average and power on the team. If you want another hitter to lead off, then bat Giles 8th. But I don’t think you give Giles/Renteria more AB over a season than Chipper/Andruw. Either Giles or Renteria hits second, but second and third? uh-uh, no thanks.
By KC
August 7, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this
nscoots:
Respectfully, I think 80 at-bats a year is a rather high estimate. That’s especially true if you put four .300 hitters batting in front of him, which is what I would envision. If you can get a good leadoff hitter (if not a .300 hitter, then someone with an OBP in the high 300’s), then Giles, Renteria, C.Jones, and then Andruw).
If you have several guys in front of you that are adept at getting on base and prolonging an inning, your at-bats won’t be substantially effected… certainly not by 80 AB’s.
By TrueBlueBravesFan
August 7, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this
I don’t think the Mets will be in the WS. And I honestly think its for the same reason the Braves haven’t been. For 3 reasons. 1. Their lead in the division is too big. Its hard to build that momentum back if you coast into postseason. 2. Their starting pitchers are old and have a history of fading at the end (Glavine, Pedro, Trachsel). In fact your already starting to see signs of this in all 3 listed above. I’ll be surprised if Pedro makes it to the postseason and at the rate Glavines fading it makes me think his arm is tired. 3. The pressure cooker in New York will cause havoc to player psyches come the start of the postseason and it will be hard for the players to focus. Many of the everyday players that are doing well now have a history of wilting under the spotlight (Delgado, La Duca, even Beltran so some extent). Of course the New York media could prove me wrong and ease up on them for the postseason but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.
By KC
August 7, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this
Braves 20: I’m with you. It’s not unusual to hear people refer to Chipper or Smoltz as “selfish”, and I’ve never quite got that. Nothing about their actions suggests that to be true. These are quintessential “team-first” kind of guys.
I think some people just enjoy saying negative things about other people, so when there’s nothing legitimately bad to say, they just make s*_t up. Good call Braves 20… Chipper’s a class act.
By mart
August 7, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
My gosh, enough with the praise of Chipper. Unless he gets back on the ‘roids, he’s done as a 3-5 hitter.
By KC
August 7, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this
mart
Pull your head out of you _. There are nothing to point to Chipper having been on steriods at any point in his career. Save that s*_t for the people who deserve it, like Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi.
By KC
August 7, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
mart
Pull your head out of your _. There are nothing to point to Chipper having been on steriods at any point in his career. Save that s*_t for the people who deserve it, like Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi.
By mart
August 7, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this
Take a look at photos of Chipper’s head and body from 5 or 6 years ago. Take a look at his power drop off. Watch his body break down at a relatively early age. KC, you are to Chipper what the Frisco fans are to Bonds.
By David O'Brien
August 7, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this
Don, thanks for your reasoned and thoughtful response. I’m glad we could finally have some discourse without the constant bickering.
I, too, believe Betemit has a chance to be a productive starting third baseman. And if the Braves didn’t have Chipper under contract for two more years, I think they would have given Betemit a shot there. Really, I do. Simple fact is, the only spot they could have an opening at in next two years is 2B, which they considered far less a fit for Wilson than SS or 3B. That’s all.
And Aybar has a shot to play second base, but you’re right, I don’t see how any team could have him at 3B unless they got overwhelming power at uncoventional spots, like SS or 2B.
He’ll get a crack at 2B job, otherwise be a utility guy. I do think Aybar will be on the 2007 roster, however. I think we disagree on that. But I certainly could be wrong, too.
By KC
August 7, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this
nscoots:
To finish making my case for the lineup I suggested….
With a speedy guy (with a good OBP) at the top of that lineup, followed by Giles and Renteria (two .300 hitters who will slam some homers, a lot of doubles, and can play good ABC baseball), the Braves would gain the ability to manufacture runs. That’s something they don’t do quite as well with the current lineup. Especially in big games against great pitchers (and in the post-season), the ability to manufacture runs can be very important in tight games when runs are hard to come by.
I think that kind of a lineup would give you an excellent chance of scoring in the 1st inning of games. The leadoff hitter could get on and steal a base. If not, Giles is normally a 45 double a year guy, and there have been many instances in the past when the leadoff guy fails to get on, but Giles doubles and the 3rd hitter still comes up with a runner in scoring position. I like the idea of there often being someone on base when Chipper comes up. And if two people reach, Andruw’s got a chance to come up and do some real damage.
Another benefit is that it would minimize the damage when (not “if”, but when) Chipper goes on the DL next year. Of course you always miss a bat like Chipper’s, but the complexion of that lineup would remain the same.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this
No such thing as a good leadoff hitter
There is no such thing as a good leadoff hitter or #2 hitter or so on. There are good hitters and bad hitters. There have been plenty of studies on this subject and they all come to the same conclusion: arranging a lineup doesn’t make a substantial difference in run scoring. Who’s in the lineup is more important than how you arrange it.
By journalist jimmy smith
August 7, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
there was nary a clary or need to clary before these unfortunate references appeared in the blog. journalist jimmy smith has two things to say about that: it is unfortunate, it is uncalled for, and yet, it is profound. journalist hopes this will clary for all concerned. and where is journalist bob today? over-sleeping again? the moniker rip van bob need not be claried. chipper will bat third and play third base when he is so old he is wearing depends. the position will be retired. flowers will grow in the area around the bag, and babes will always sit along the third base line in hopes of seeing a bubble blown. or a bubble … better not go there. selah
By KC
August 7, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
Shaun:
Where are you getting all these “studies”? Maybe you could start posting some links if any of it’s posted online somewhere, or give us the names of specific books or articles?
If you’re going to be coming out with statements like “the arrangement of your lineup doesn’t matter”, and back it up with “plenty of studies have been done”… you should be prepared to share this evidence with the rest of us.
I’m not even going to respond to that statement (that the batting order doesn’t matter), because I believe it to be wrong on so many levels, I don’t even know where to start.
By Don
August 7, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
Despite their aging starting rotation, what the Mets will have going for them in the NL postseason series is that everybody else in the NL stinks. When is the last time an entire league was this lousy? I don’t remember ever seeing anything like it. It’s almost like the AL is major league baseball and the NL is AAA.
St. Louis, leading a division and amazingly still with the second best record in the NL despite two 8 game losing streaks this year, is so desperate for pitching that they’ve recently turned to Jeff Weaver and Jorge Sosa. That’s not just as mop up guys or projects, but to actually pitch in key situations. That pretty much says it all about the quality of this year’s NL. No, wait a minute, let me add that Jason Marquis had 12 wins before the end of July in this year’s NL with an ERA approaching 6. And then you have the Braves, allegedly still a playoff contender, giving 3 starts to a guy from the Independent League who I don’t think could break a pane of glass with his fastball.
The Braves can’t even sniff .500 in this wretched league and people here are still talking about them like they’re a good team.
By hop on chop
August 7, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this
Hey Dave,
There’s this invention called the telephone. And most reporters who cover a beat come up with contacts, or sources, which are experts in the field that said reporter covers. Since you’ve covered the Braves and Marlins, you’re probably familiar with a few of these sources, or contacts, with the Dodgers. See, no team is an island unto itself if you’re a good reporter.
So what you do is use the telephone to call these contacts, or sources, to get a more focused picture of, for example, the Betemit-Baez-Aybar trade. That way you come off as more of a competent, unbiased reporter and less of a Braves organization toady.
If you’ve got time to write a “War and Peace”-length blog, then you’ve got time to make a few calls.
Or take the easy way and just keep spouting the party line of an organization trying to cover its butt for an embarrassing 2006 season. That’s certainly good enough for 99.9 percent of this paper’s readers.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
Shaun, please footnote such stuff as “plenty of studies”, if you please, when stating as fact. Otherwise, there’s a tendency to disregard those comments as bluster, or worse.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this
KC,
I’ve told you, pick up Baseball Between the Numbers and it addresses things like the lack of importance of batting order and the fact that RBI is probably the most overrated of all major offensive stats. And they back it up with pretty sufficient evidence.
And I didn’t say batting order doesn’t matter. But it doesn’t matter as much as many people think. The studies show that if you arranged the order with the worst hitters batting at the top of the order and the best hitters at the bottom, it would be worth only about one win.
Here is just one study:
http://www.retrosheet.org/Research/RuaneT/lineup_art.htm
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
hop, I guess DOB could make the calls you suggest, etc. That is, if anyone cared how a member of the DODGERS is playing. I certainly don’t.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
KC,
I should ask you to show me some proof of the following statement you made:
With a speedy guy (with a good OBP) at the top of that lineup, followed by Giles and Renteria (two .300 hitters who will slam some homers, a lot of doubles, and can play good ABC baseball), the Braves would gain the ability to manufacture runs.
There is less evidence out there that you can manufacture runs, but everyone seems to accept it as fact.
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this
Shaun, we shouldn’t have asked…
That scrambled bs, by who knows who, almost put me to sleep. No wonder you’re on meds.
By hop on chop
August 7, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
Scoots, the source of your disinterest in Betemit probably is the whopping 4 1/2 games by which your Braves now trail Betemit’s new team.
But, of course, you miss the point. I’m interested in the Dodgers’ motivation in making the trade. What “upside” (favorite Aybar word) did the Dodgers not see in Willy that the Braves did? Or what hole does Betemit fill for L.A. that Aybar doesn’t? A balanced report gives both sides of the story. I know you Braves fans are only interested in Sacred Scheurholz’s take on things, and maybe that’s all the AJC requires of their reporters after 14 years of Braves success. But I’m a baseball fan, and sometimes in a complex story like this recent trade, I’d like to know what someone besides John Almighty thinks. And unlike DOB, I think the hometown paper should be my source of that information.
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
Rodger,
I’m sorry you’re too lazy to actually read anything halfway intelligent.
By Rodger
August 7, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
Just because something purports to be (or you claim it is) intelligent doesn’t mean it is.
By DonCoburleone
August 7, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
DOB good column. I agree with what you said about how the Braves only mistake was not letting Andruw know what their intentions were. I mean, the last thing you’d want to do at this point is give AJ a reason to be frustrated at the organization. Especially when we want that home-team discount again. But I seriously doubt AJ will be a Brave come 2008. I don’t think he will be traded however, cuz I really believe the Braves are going to be a serious contender next year. So they’ll hang on to him and then get out-bid by the Red Sox, White Sox, Angels or Dodgers (may as well go to the Dodgers, half their team is already former Braves). That will at least net the Braves a couple of 1st round draft picks won’t it?
By Don
August 7, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
Dave, thanks for the response. I understand the issue that Chipper (untradeable with his contract) in front of Betemit at 3rd created. But based on the last couple of years, if we pencil in a 35 year old Chipper (next season) for two trips to the 15 day DL (feet, hamstrings, rib cage, etc.) and a day off here and there, that’s 35-40 games for Betemit at third.
Add in another 10 games each at short and second giving them an occasional day off. That’s assuming we resign or adequately replace Giles at second and no injuries to either of the middle infielders. And Betemit also gives you a pinch hitter with some pop; you can put him against anybody without worrying about wasting him if the other side makes a pitching change. So I think it’s reasonable to project that Betemit would have probably started 60-70 games a year and gotten 250-300 ABs for next year’s Braves, potentially a lot more than that if somebody went down for 3 months. And he’s cheap. Given where the Braves stood at the time of the trade, I still can’t see the logic of giving that away for a 60 day rental of Baez and a Willy Aybar.
I think next year Betemit will be starting at third for the Dodgers and hit around .280 with 20+ home runs with 80+ RBIs. I also suspect Danys Baez will be somewhere else and Aybar will be at Richmond or in another organization. I don’t see Aybar sticking as a utility infielder if he is in fact a marginal big league infielder defensively and doesn’t bring much pop as a pinch hitter. The last guy I can think of who fit that profile on the Braves roster was Keith Lockhart, and I think Cox thought of him as a profesional pinch hitter, which Aybar certainly isn’t.
By the way, there are a number of people on this blog who keep expressing conviction that Baez and Wickman will be with the Braves this year. What kind of odds would you give that? I’d make the odds against either of them being here next year at 5:1 or greater and the odds of both of them being here at 100:1. With current payroll constraints, the Braves certainly aren’t going to pay both of them $4-$6 million and use one as a setup guy. They weren’t willing to pay that for either of them this past offseason to be a closer.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
but, hop, what makes this trade “complex”? Two utility players traded for one another with a relief pitcher thrown in…
I guess I do miss the point of the set of circumstances that could possibly make performance for a former player, now three time zones away, relevant to a local newspaper. If indeed there was a story worth writing on what the Dodgers saw or didn’t see, or what the Braves saw or didn’t see, it would have been written long before now (whether DOB is an organizational toady or not, I cannot speak knowledgeably thereof). Meanwhile, it’s old news, something surviving newspapers deal in very little.
By DonCoburleone
August 7, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this
Don I think that Wickman will be back next year. He obviously still has something left in the tank, and I GUARANTEE the Braves will be willing to pay him $5mil next year after the bullpen debacle at the beginning/middle of the season. Plus he like BC, and I’m sure he thinks the Braves are going to be competetive next year. Baez is another story. If he does well the rest of this year, he will demand more in the offseason and the Braves won’t sign him. If he does poorly the rest of the year, he’ll be cheaper but the Braves won’t want him then. So I would put my money on Wickman back next year and Baez gone. 100-1 on both being back sounds about right, but for just Wickman I’d put it at 50/50…
By Carolina Lady
August 7, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this
Grinch, the term ‘clary’ was derived from the word ‘claried’ written one day recently when DOB’s fingers were tired…or something….. Being his loyal troops, we must follow his exemplary example. Our education never ends! :-))
By DonCoburleone
August 7, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this
I was watching the Dodger game the other day, it’s like watching the Braves! You got Furcal, Betemit, Drew, Lofton, and now Maddux… really wierd…
By MT
August 7, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this
Anybody got a link to the Michelle Hiskey article on Bobby Dews? I can’t find it anywhere on the site.
By MT
August 7, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this
Nevermind - I just found it. Since I’ve seen a couple of other people posting on here that they couldn’t locate it, here’s the link: http://www.ajc.com/search/content/auto/epaper/editions/sunday/sports_445d58d6f1d410710051.html
By DonCoburleone
August 7, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this
I really see 2007 as the “final curtain” to this Braves team. I believe (not sure) that both Bobby Cox and John Scheurholz are only signed through the 2007 season, and lets face it, both are getting old. Plus, AJ’s a free agent after next season, Giles is too. Smoltz may have one (maybe 2?) good season’s left after next year (and he’s not signed for ‘08 either). Chipper is a slow ground ball or bad swing away from being done for good and LaRoche is eligible for FA after 2007 isn’t he? Anyway, my point is I can definately see the Braves organization being completely re-vamped after next season with BC and JS possibly leaving, along with AJ and Marcus Giles (at least).
By MT
August 7, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
Sorry, didn’t link it right. Let’s try again: http://www.ajc.com/search/content/auto/epaper/editions/sunday/sports_445d58d6f1d410710051.html
By Lew
August 7, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this
Shaun-I am of the old school and really don’t need much more than BAvg, hits, runs, wins losses, etc. I’m not even sure when all of this alphabet soup of stats even reared it’s ugly head. I will make one more appeal to your scholarly sensibilities here. You are, for sure, a thoughtful (if misguided), student of the game-no doubt. The only thing that matters in baseball-the whole purpose of the game-is to score more runs than your opponent. This is the essence of the sport, torn down to the naked basics and stripped of all pretense. The stat I used which concerns RUN PRODUCTION-nothing more and nothing less, actually SUBTRACTS HRs from the equation. Thus, a player of considerably less power, but hefty in the run scoring and timely hitting departments (e.g. Craig Biggio), has just as much a chance to shine as Big Papi. My point in all of this is that Francoeur is a very productive hitter. He makes the most of his RBI oppurtunities, despite reaching safely 1 of 4 times instead of your prefered 38 or 40%. He doesn’t have a great OBP, but he sure does account for numerous runs scoring. As I pointed out earlier, this is the reason for playing the game. Journalist Jimmy Smith-There has been Vermont sitings of large horned creature that are not deer or moose. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Hartebeest is loose again. Pictures to follow. No seal was spotted.
By bobby dews is no pixie
August 7, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/0806dews.html
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
Rodger and KC,
Half the stuff posted here purports to be intelligent, but isn’t, and there is little to no evidence backing up what many people post. And that’s fine, but don’t ask me to provide specific evidence when you don’t ask the same of others. I’ve mentioned a couple of books in my posts where you can find evidence that backs up my posts.
By Lew
August 7, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
Don-La Roche should not be eligible for free agency until 09, if I’m not mistaken. This is just his third year and you can’t declare for free agency until after your 6th year.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
Shaun, only half? Might be generous, LOL, and I should know, as a mighty contributor to the less-than-intelligent sector. But, if you’re giving an opinion, that’s one thing, no footnotes needed, everyone has one, etc. But if you state something as fact, then it’s only right that you (or anyone else, for that matter) reveal the basis for the statement. That’s all I meant, anyway, can’t speak for anyone else.
By journalist jimmy smith
August 7, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
lew, please keep journalist posted. the shape of the horns and the color of the coat will be most important diagnostic indicators. the hartebeest is hump-shouldered, with a steeply sloping back, slim legs and a long, narrow face. will be traveling with a small seal.
By MBATL
August 7, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this
Regarding Francoeur and the comparisons to Vlad: Yes, Vlad is a free swinger, but he never had an obp under .350, and that was his rookie year. He only walked 19 times that year; he learned to take walks and his obp soared.
And, he never struck out 100 times in a season; Jeff is at 91 right now.
Playing with numbers, if Frenchy had taken 20 more walks this year, that’s less than one more walk per week, his obp would be a respectable (if not great) .330.
David Wright is really very comparable to Jeff - similar power, similar strikouts, except that Wright has taken 50 walks this year, which makes a huge difference in the batting average and obp numbers.
I’m not down on him at all - and don’t think he’d be honing his skills any more playing at AAA than he is now, facing ML pitching.
He just has potential to be a superstar, and until he cuts down the K’s and learns to take a walk, he won’t be. Too many outs, as someone pointed out.
By DonCoburleone
August 7, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this
AJ to the Angels just makes too much sense in the offseason for it not to happen (even though Stoneman doesn’t like to trade his homegrown talent). Stoneman has traded in the offseason before, just not during the season before the deadline. And, if the Angels miss the playoffs this year, or even if they make it and lose to a team with more power (which everyone predicts will happen) Stoneman will have to make a trade for a big bat. Not to mention they don’t have a true centerfielder on the team. Figgins is playing it now, and he’s really a utility infielder more than anything. Not to mention, the Angels are freakin’ loaded at starting pitching. Weaver, Santana and Saunders are all very young and very very good. Plus, other “expendable” pitchers like Kelvim Escobar (who would be our ACE next year if we got him in the offseason) or Dustin Moseley (another top prospect) would be huge upgrades for our pitching staff. I would try and get Weaver or Santana for AJ straight up first. If the Angels wouldn’t go for either of them, my backup plans would be 1)Escobar and a top prospect (Wood, Morales, Izturis, another pitcher) or 2)Saunders, Moseley and a top prospect for Andruw Jones and Chuck James. (Saunders is a lefty and we wouldn’t need either James, HoRam, or Hampton next year if we got him.) Would anyone not do these trades?
By DonCoburleone
August 7, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this
And I would only do those trades if I knew there was a good chance we couldn’t re-sign Andruw…
By Lew
August 7, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this
Jimmy-No seal, but I’m certain it is the Hartebeest. I have a drawing, but the computer won’t let me send it to you (actually, I’m an old man and can’t make the computer do it-to be 15 again). It wandered into my back yard asking for direction to Ernie Johnson’s home. Ernie lives south of me in one of the southern B towns like Bennington or Brattleboro (as opposed to a mopre northern B town like Burlington). When I asked what it wanted with Ernie, it said something about an old broadcaster’s remedy to aid with post traumatic stress induced by being forced to listen to Joe Morgan and Jon Miller for hours on end. The creature wandered away muttering something under its breath. I couldn’t quite catch all it said, but the words Bate a meet, Four-coll and Dave O’Brien were used. There was no seal.
By Scott
August 7, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
FINALLY we’re seeing some discussion about TP and his hitting coach production. In my mind, the better hitting instructors focus on both the mechanics and the mental side of it. Anybody who makes it to the majors as a regular position player can hit, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have flaws that can’t be corrected. You can go thru the Braves line-up and see TP’s failure to get batters to improve: Furcal never understood that he was a lead-off hitter, he always tried to hit for power. TP should have locked him in the video room watching about 24 straight hours of Ichiro, Tony Gwinn, Pete Rose, and Juan Pierre hit a baseball. TP hasn’t corrected Giles uppercut swing. Every time Chipper goes cold, his dad has to fly into town to correct it with a “5 minute session” - can’t TP sit in on this session to learn what Dad is looking for? AJ changes his batting approach, but only after Bobby Cox got involved. LaRoche is hitting better, but unless the pitcher throws the ball knee high over the plate, it won’t be hit safely (or long). And Frenchy….what a talent - don’t take away his aggressiveness, but focus on his footwork. Hasn’t anyone noticed what happens to JF’s right foot when he swings…it goes BACK (away from the plate) DURING the swing - he doesn’t have a solid base to post up his swing. Watch him tonight, and you’ll see why he can’t possibly reach the low outside slider. He does occasionally because he has incredible hand-eye coordination. If TP can get these guys to correct these things…
By Shaun
August 7, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
I’m just saying people say things like “we should bat so-and-so leadoff so we can manufacture runs,” without much to back it up. At least I provide both some logic and some place where you read about evidence to support my facts.
By Lew
August 7, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
Scott-You might have a point. I have been saying all year that Giles’ stance is way to open for an opposite field hitter. If he would just close up, it would be almost impossible to hit with an uppercut swing. If I can see this just watching games, TP should have caught it. Actually, he should have figured it out when a player who usually hits to right center pops up to third or grounds to short consistently. I’ve also been troubled by Andruw’s fall down swing. I don’t remember that from last year. Neither do I remember his front foot being halfway to 3B at the front of the box. This should be what hitting coaches do.
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this
don, Angels don’t have a 1B, either. Wouldn’t you expect them to target a masher at that position rather than CF?
By Moe
August 7, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
Counterexample to Wilson Betemit being too big and too slow to be a viable second baseman: Jeff Kent.
By Voice of Reason
August 7, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this
I’m probably gonna regret this, but I’m gonna weigh in on the whole OBP vs. OPS vs. AVG vs. BB’s, etc. I believe that someone earlier stated that they felt that OBP was the most important offensive stat. My question is when did they start counting total bases in the final score? I believe that the team that scores the most runs wins. I’ll submit to you that RBI is the most important offensive stat for a player. Who cares how many times you’re on base if you’re left there after 3 outs? You gotta cross the plate, and that takes RBI. I’m certainly not a Franc apologist, but he’s currently got 77 RBI, which projects to 113 over a full season. I’ll take that from a 22 year old kid with just over a full year of Major League service under his belt. Let’s not forget, either, that his rushed call-up last season has facilitated OJT at the highest level. Sure, his plate discipline leaves alot to be desired. I agree he has some learning and growing to do. I also believe, though, that you’ll still get 100+ RBI from a developing hitter who’s gaining valuable Major League experience every day. And who else are you gonna stick out there to drive in those runs if you sit Franc? Langerhans? Please…
BTW - To the guy who called BC a doofus for sitting McCann every 5 days: Yeah, he’d have more AB’s at this point, but he’d fade miserably down the stretch. Why burn him out earlier for the sake of boosting his AB’s?
More pie and banana pudding for everybody!!!
By ncscoots
August 7, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
Still and all, whether despite TP or because of him (undetermined by many of the bloggers), these guys are hitting around .270 as a team, and scoring more than 5 runs a game. That’s not exactly anemic.
By Carolina Lady
August 7, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this
New blog is up!
By Lew
August 7, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this
Esteemed Journalist Jimmy-Please check your email. Picture of strange creature has been transmitted. Quickly-the computer is trying to regain control.
By Mike
August 7, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this
Shaun and Lew;
I think the best way to solve this is to say the following;
Wins are not manufactured by getting on base or driving in runs, but driving in runs WITH runners on base.
Hows that?
By MBATL
August 7, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this
And when you have a .280 obp, the guy behind you doesn’t have much chance to drive in runs.
By TDub
August 7, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this
hop on chop,
I want the five minutes of my life I spent reading your ridiculous posts back. That goes for you too, Tyger.
By since82
August 7, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this
I just read where Smoltz said we have to play every game like it is a playoff game. I think that is so true, however more importantly Cox needs to manage every game like it is a playoff game. Something he has never done even when it was a playoff game. Bobby will leave a pitcher in uusually until he gives up 5 or 6 runs. More often than not it’s to late to make a change at that point. I saw Willie Randolph change pitchers at least three times in one game last week, and the Mets had the LEAD when he made the changes! How refreshing I thought. This man really wants to WIN. It is nice to make players feeeeeel good about themselves, But right now, we don’t have time for that. Oh, and by the way I know Bobby has been a very successful manager.
By Aaron Egnor
August 7, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this
Andruw will be the cornerstone of this team for the next 4 years if JS doesn’t continue alienating him. He did it to Glavine, remember, and Glavine publicly called him on it. Now we potentially saw it happen to Andruw. Guaranteed Boras will NOT let Andruw forget it happened.
If they have to trade Andruw, send him to Seattle so I can see my favorite player keep playing on a regular basis.
By Tralfaz
August 7, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the rational perspective. Heading out to some plastic food outlet or another a few afternoons ago, I had to listen as the goob from ESPN radio kept yammering on about someone coming on in “three minutes to talk about a superstar who is on the verge of being traded”.
Turned out to be Buster Olney, with typical calm and profesionalism, sedately explaining the Andruw Jones situation, and pretty much putting the hose on said goob’s manufactured bombast. Maybe the goob just doesn’t understand the system, saw the words “Andruw” “Jones” and “waiver” on the newswire, and it just flipped his obviously feeble little mind.
Whatever. I don’t know if said goob was a cause or effect of the “Andruw on Waivers” firestorm (perhaps FSN could have done up some Copland-inspired theme song while showing the “Andruw on Waivers: Hour Three” backdrop when they break away for the we- now- interrupt- your- regular- programming updates), but it sure illustrated the raw, stupid desire to manufacture a story that the media (sports or otherwise)seems so predisposed to doing these days.
Thanks again..and one day you’ll be able to tell your grandkids that you did, indeed, see Tom Waits before everyone else woke up and realized he was a national treasure. You old cutting edge lizard, you…
By Lance
August 8, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this
I would just like to post a few comments: Were any of you guys braves fans in the 70s or 80s? I was a huge Dale Murphy fan, and i personally think that John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox have done one heck of a job with the team since 1990, even though i thought trading the Murph was the worst idea ever but it worked. Then they traded my next favorite player with Dave Justice. But now to see you guys have the gall to say anything bad about Chipper Jones just ticks me off, and i mean bad. Chipper has never done anything but help the braves in anyway he can. Maybe you forgot the NL MVP of 1999 gave up his position to Castilla to get another bat in the lineup (even though one of the players you praise- Soriano-absolutely went crazy about being moved to the outfield) He turned down larger contracts with other teams because he wanted to be a brave (name others that do that), then he even gave up some of this lesser contract MULTIPLE times. If you put down Chipper in anyway, you dont deserve to be Braves fans, so shut the heck up. And by the way, how many years do the braves have to win the division before they can have a bad year? Just jump on the bandwagon with the rest of the “fans” and be yankees fans. thanks from a true braves fan.
By David
August 8, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
My biggest regret is not Andrew being placed on waivers. It’s Andrew not being claimed by someone when he was on waivers and sent packing out-of-town. The Braves fans deserve better than Andrew Jones, and the remaining ball players with their attitude of losersville. As long as the current Braves are in place—with Bobby Cox as their manager, the Braves will never see the playoffs ever again. If the Braves were smart, they would fire Bobby Cox and John Shuerholtz, sweep the front office clean and start over from scratch. If anybody wants to know what success is, they need to look no further than what the Detroit Tigers are doing this year. Detroit went out and got a front-line manager (Jim Leyland) who, by the way, is destined make the Hall-Of-Fame someday as a Manager (winning a world championship with the Florida Marlins). All Leyland did was use his managerial skills to guide his team to an ungodly 76-36 record (40 games over .500). If Jim Leyland does not make manager of the year this year, the award is a farce. No one else is remotely close to what this great manager has done this year. Bobby Cox would have done the same thing this year, but he doesn’t have full control of player personnel the way Jim Leyland does; and John Sherholtz does not appear to be committed to bringing excellence onto the Atlanta Braves roster anymore. Case in point, when Shuerholtz pulled the trigger on the Betemit trade—(that trade was not for the BETTERMENT of the team. Instead, it made the team worse, and we have lost so many games that we might as well phone in the remainder of the season and chaulk it up to poor navigation at the helm—-by Cox and Shuerholtz! We could have smoked the field easily if our leaders were up-to-speed with the modern day players, but those two bozos that are running the team are currently running it into the ground and we are no longer in contention for the token wild card appearance. I’d say, start over, hire a good manager like Sparky Anderson and give him full control over player personnel. We’d be better off in the long run by doing so.