Braves

By david

October 25, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

Much needed perspective!

By MBATL

October 25, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Great article! I can’t wait to read the replies!

By Dan

October 25, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

I think you have it about right. The only thing I have ever questioned about Cox is that maybe, just maybe, it is a little to comfortable to be a Braves player. But as hard as everybody had to hump this year, I think they put an end to that line of questioning, at least in my mind.

By True Braves Fan

October 25, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

DOB: Attack you? Rather, I think it may be the best, most perceptive, realistic article you have ever written! Keep them coming!

By AZBravoFan

October 25, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

Too comfortable to be a Braves player? Perhaps we should hire Larry Bowa? That worked out real well for the Padres and Phillies didn’t it?

By Big Guy

October 25, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

Here , Here, while I am no longer able to attend the games on a regular basis,I do watch them on the tube. I used to go to Fulton Co. and sit with 5,000 of my closest friends and watch the Braves struggle through the season. What a joy it was this year to see a team devoid of egos and enjoying playing baseball. Don’t ever doubt that Atlanta is very lucky to have Cox and the rest of the Braves family. I hope Leo the best but I think that his leaving will just prove Bobby’s worth that much more. Please lord give us a closer, amen

By Eric

October 25, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

DOB, you said it all and you said it correctly. Be prepared, though, for the onslaught from fans who are enthralled with nasal mucus and who are so completely disconnected from the realities of this team and of baseball in general that they are incapable of devising an original thought. They are easy to spot. When the Braves win, these people will say, “We won.” When the Braves lose, the statement is, “They lost.” You have given us a thorough and accurate perspective, one that no pre-adolescent mentality can ever understand.

By TD

October 25, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

Living in Baltimore and seeing Yankee fans and Philly fans I can say that the Braves are referred to as Chokers among those groups. Of course, the typical Atlanta response is, “Well, those are Yankee fans and Philly fans.” Whatever… As far as dismissing Cox, I ask the same question I always do, “Would the Boss keep this guy on?” I think the answer is no, and then start counting the rings he has won. I would have fired Cox after he hit his wife, or after the 98 debacle.

By Sam

October 25, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

I don’t think Braves Fans are spoiled I think we are as passionate about our team as anyone else. The rest of the people of Atlanta are spoiled thats why they don’t support the team until they make it to the World Series. This is the same city that beats up Mike Vick even though his team has a 5-2 record. I would not say that those are the true Falcon fans. Most people that live in the Atlanta Metro Area are recent transplants here and will only jump on ship when the team does something that puts them on the Nations stage. They have seen the Braves make it to the Playoffs they will jump back on board when they make it back to the World Series…and they will say they have been fans before 1991.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

I don’t like jumping in so quick _ I like to let you folks run this stuff around amongst yourselves _ but I couldn’t resist responding to one e-mail.

Philly fans? PHILLY FANS? Yeah, I can certainly see where Phillies fans would call the Braves chokers. I’m at the ballpark now, sitting in a row in front of a couple of Philly writers, in fact. They got a kick out of that.

You weren’t being serious, right?

Oh, you were? Nevermind.

By david

October 25, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this

Eric good to see you post,I couldn’t agree more with your insight and perspective.This site unfortunately has been overcome by people who know very little about baseball and even less about civility.This could be a great blog for serious fans with plenty of room for discussion, dissent and various opinions.Sadly some people seem to think the most obnoxious,profane and unknowing opinions warrant serious discussion.How sadly mistaken these few individuals are.

By Joe Toppe

October 25, 2005 05:32 PM | Link to this

Hey David, You are just taking one thing and calling it another. Every year someone will try and find some sort of silver lining to yet another post-season failure. We have heard them all, “we ran into a hot team, or a hot pitcher. We weren’t even supposed to be here this year. We lost glavine, we lost Maddux. We had 18 rookies”. WHATEVER!!! It’s always something. Stop making excuses for the Braves. Eventually, someone has to be held accountable for this unprecedented run of post-season chokes. Look, I remember who won the 1986 NBA finals, and I don’t care who finished second or third. The Braves should remove all of those division banners, save one, from left field. As long as Schurholtz, Cox, and Chipper Jones convince everyone that it was a great season in spite of losing, and people like you believe it, the Braves post-season problems will continue.

By Brian Hunt

October 25, 2005 05:49 PM | Link to this

Excellent blog. Whenever I hear the complaints I just think back to pre-1991. I’ll take 14 consecutive postseason trips any day.

By anotherearlyexit

October 25, 2005 05:54 PM | Link to this

Dave, how about some insight into some offseason moves. Who are the top candidates to replace Mazzone? Furcal? Will the Braves pick up Thompson’s option? Will Giles stay if F******* is resigned? Betemit a better fit a 2nd than SS IMO. Will Estrada be traded?What are you hearing if anything?

By Brian

October 25, 2005 06:01 PM | Link to this

Would you rather have 14 post season appearances and one World Series title, or, say, seven post-season appearances and TWO World Series wins?

I’d take the two WS wins every time.

The problem with all the post-season futility is that it dilutes the fun of all the regular season wins. There’s always “yeah, but they’ll find some way to cough it up in the playoffs” in the back of your mind.

In a perverse way, it’s as bedeviling as being a Cubs fan…

By Kurt

October 25, 2005 06:08 PM | Link to this

Excellent perspective. If the Braves had won 13 of those 14 World Series’, the average Braves “fan” would complain that they didn’t win all 14. I say, either be a fan win or lose, or shut up and get off the bandwagon.

By TD

October 25, 2005 06:12 PM | Link to this

Hey! Regarding Philly fans, I was just passing along what I have to deal with when I go sit in their ball park and root for the Braves. My son, who is 25, wanted to punch one on the boneheads since we were arguing about this very thing and also trying to enjoy watching the Braves come back and beat the Phillies at the ESPN Sunday night game this past July. I never said they were reasonable, I was just adding to the conversation. nice to know you are reading this stuff, though. by the way, they did build a nice stadium to watch a game, even though it is something of a “band box” The Philly writers should have gotten a chuckle out of it, they have been exposed to this type of nonsense more than I have.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 25, 2005 06:23 PM | Link to this

Furman Bisher, Jesse Outler, Jim Minter, Lewis Grizzard - fine sportswriters all. Bisher, a Legend. David, you’re patrolling their turf now. Give us a little more than that we should be happy for the 14 little signs hanging around the stadium. How about a little insight into how they go beyond the first round next year with the same, tired, old faces patrolling the dugout and bullpen? Another personal recognition for Bobby doesn’t do a whole lot for me when the team falls apart every post-season. Maybe since the city has been renamed “the ATL” we can slip up on somebody next year.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2005 06:45 PM | Link to this

LeTwan, it’s a blog. Relax. I was merely trying to offer some idea of what the rest of baseball sees when they look at Atlanta, and merely trying to point out that this season was different from others in one regard _ the 14 rookies, necessitated by the injuries.

If you don’t care, fine.

Some insight into how they go beyond the first round next season? The free agent filing period hasn’t even begun, and I’m being asked how the Braves can go beyond the first round next season, and who’s going to replace Furcal, when he hasn’t even FILED for free agency yet, much less seen what the market will bear.

There’s no reason they won’t keep Giles, unless they absolutely can’t afford to keep him after signing Furcal. But again, it’s too early to tell where the market’s going to be exactly for Furcal (I’m guessing over 8 mill per), and how much the Braves will incorporat the $7 mill or so they’re going to get for insurance on Hampton into the payroll.

It’s too early to tell a lot of things. At this point last year, we’d have never guessed they’d be in the hunt for Hudson and would trade for Kolb and move Smoltz back to rotation. It’s idle speculation until at least the rumor mill gets cranked up, and that’s not happened yet. Very few rumors floating around here at the series. That’ll begin when free agency starts and at the GM meetings in a couple of weeks.

Honestly haven’t heard names mentioned yet for Leo’s replacement. St. Claire with Nats makes some sense, former Brave, low-key guy, no slave to pitch counts, had good results with Livan, Patterson and Cordero, etc. But that’s really just an educated guess.

Stottlemyre made a lot of sense, until a Yankees writer I’m friends with told me he just talked to Mel and Mel says he’s going to stay out west (he lives in Seattle) and work closer to west coast or nowhere.

Again, it’s early. Very early. And I didn’t tell you to be happy with the 14 “little flags.” don’t put words in my mouth. I don’t care if you’re happy with them, disgusted with them, or believe they should be buried beneath the parking lot where Fulton County Stadium stood.

I’m not a columnist like those esteemed names you mentioned. It’s not my job to write editorial pieces and take one side of the issue or other. I’m a beat writer, given a little more leeway in these blogs, but still not a columnist by any stretch.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2005 06:46 PM | Link to this

I meant, 18 rookies.

OK, that’s it. Downstairs to listen to Smoltz at the Roberto Clemente Award press conference. He won the national award, for those of you who care (and you, too, LeTwan).

By AZBravoFan

October 25, 2005 07:33 PM | Link to this

Boy, the bile that is spewed on this site is amazing! No one is making excuses for the Braves. There are none. They lost, they coughed up lots of opportunities, didn’t get enough timely hitting or pitching. Could they have beating the Astro’s and the banged up Cards and gone on to the World Series? Sure. Should they have? We’d all like to think so I’m sure. I’d bet the players would tell you they should have. Is it a travesty that they didn’t? Of course not. They lost to a good team. Say what you want about the 15-30 start and the terrible offense. That team, at the start of the playoffs was as good as any. So while there are no excuses, there’s no shame either in losing a best of 5 series to them. This wasn’t the 82-80 Padres. Now if the Pads had shut them down in the same way, THAT would have been an upset and all the fussing and calling for Bobby’s head might hold a little more water. So I agree, it’s time to move on and start thinking about how to patch the holes and fix the weaknesses that were exposed by the Astros. We all know what they are. Let’s just hope there’s enough creativity left to make it all work under the budgetary constraints.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 25, 2005 07:55 PM | Link to this

Methinks LeTwan has struck a nerve. Don’t worry, Dave, there was a guy named Piney Woods Pete who also wrote for the paper -so you’re still in good company.

The Braves had a LONG run of being horrible - and now they have a long run of being very good in the regular season. There is no guarantee that they will be back to the playoffs next year, or ever again. Opportunities squandered cannot be recaptured.

Will there be other opportunities and will the team respond better? Players change. The one constant is Bobby Cox. He can get you to the dance - but he can’t jitterbug.

By Pat

October 25, 2005 08:07 PM | Link to this

Thanks Dave. Finally somebody defended Bobby…something long overdue.

By Eric

October 25, 2005 08:10 PM | Link to this

DOB, it’s good to have you actively involved in this blog, and I’m glad to see you get your dander up. If you were reading these blogs throughout most of the season, you know that the discussion was exactly as “dave” described it in his post, especially when it was a subscription blog. There were about a dozen regulars who didn’t always agree with one another, but they were always fair, civil, and thoughtful. There was one dramatic exception, but we all learned just to scroll past his babbling.

Unfortunately, the end of the playoffs resulted in a horde of weirdos crawling out of the woodwork. Their specialties are ridicule, bombast, and bathroom “humor.” They have pretty much driven away the best and truest fans, and so I can only assure you that a lot of what you see here is nothing more than the wailing of people who are losers in their own lives. They are angered that the Braves didn’t give them some coat tails on which they could hang and claim success for themselves.

By Carroll

October 25, 2005 08:16 PM | Link to this

If you want to get some real national perspective (rather than heresay), try listening to the Jim Rome show or Dan Patrick radio show. They talked a lot about our Bravos in the days following the most recent posteseason disaster. To a man, all of the commentators, guests and callers agreed that while the Braves run is impressive, they cannot and will not be seen as a great team. Greatness requires championships, period…regardless of your precious excuses and justifications. This run will end soon…ten years after that point, NOBODY will remember anything other than the fact that we wasted at least 14 opportunites to win the WS.

But if it makes you guys feel better to constantly pat the Braves on the back for yet another failure, and then pat each other on the back for doing so, then go crazy.

LeTwan it shouldn’t surprise you that some people who make a living out of making excuses for the Braves would also make excuses for themselves. It’s funny that we get all these excuses as to why there’s been not a drop of Braves news in over 2 weeks but if you picked up a NY or Boston paper, for example, there’s prolly 2 or more pages of pure rumor and speculation about what their teams might do this offseason. Sure it might end up being bunk…but it’s fun to think about, talk about and consider. I guess this isn’t as “important” to some as patting the Braves on the back. The best thing that I’ve found LetWan is to pick a different source for your news and then come on here and talk about it. Godbless, Carroll.

By Eric

October 25, 2005 08:23 PM | Link to this

BTW, Dave, why is Selig saying that it is NOT fair for the Astros to close their stadium for the World Series? Is he saying that it WAS fair to close it against the Braves and Cards?

By david

October 25, 2005 08:36 PM | Link to this

Just finished reading the NY Post and Boston Globe dated Oct.25th,A few different stories about the respective teams,no trade rumors whatsoever.I,like Carroll want to read the rumors,musings and thoughts.Fox,CBS, and various media outlets carry these type blogs under speculation.It’s hard though to get a team executive to even comment at this time when free agents haven’t filed yet and key GM spots are in doubt.Cashman with the Yanks,Theo with the Red Sox both have contracts that expire Oct 31st.Once the WS is over,free agency period arrives and key GM spots are filled such as Yanks,Red Sox,Phillies and the ownership question in DC is answered.The Post had a story about Bowa possibly being hired by the Yanks,but the report stated nothing pertaining to the Yanks will be done until Cashman’s fate is decided.I suspect it’s like that in most organizations.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 25, 2005 09:02 PM | Link to this

Carroll, that dude still don’t like you -and now I got him hatin’ me. He doesn’t know, or care, that LeTwan actually watched the Milwaukee Braves play the first exhibition game here (and I’ve seen many games since in seasons good and bad). I saw Denny LeMaster outduel Sandy Koufax in about the best game I ever attended (Game four in the ‘91 Series was better). LeTwan has been a Braves fan, but apparently not a “real, true” Braves fan since 1966.

So, the “best and truest fans” (all twelve of ‘em) can have their mindless chatter about their Braves and allow others (who don’t qualify in their definition of “fan”) no forum.

“Civil, thoughtful” adults would seem to be more tolerant and probably could be deeper thinkers, too. And you know what, Ol’ LeTwan will betcha’ he’s more successful in life than Eric. Bet you are, too, Carroll.

That said, it was awesome seeing Smoltz win the Clemente award. He is a first class guy.

By MBATL

October 25, 2005 09:25 PM | Link to this

I can never seem to get an answer to this when this subject comes up: if Bobby is not worthy of managing the Braves, who is the guy who would do a better job?

Torre, with his own streak of post-season failure, and with twice the payroll?

LaRussa, likewise, 7 years in the postseason, but no championships?

Jack McKeon, for God’s sake? The Marlins have never won a division title; if that doesn’t tell you that winning the whole thing is a LOT luck, I don’t know what does.

Is there someone else out there who could get us to the postseason EVERY year (you DO have to get there first, I think), and give us a better chance of winning?

Who would you recommend?

DOB, some time I’d like to see your comments and a blog on the playoff structure: to me, the ‘short series’ is a ridiculous advantage to the wildcard team in a game where the winning percentage is relatively low (55-65 pct) for the very best of teams.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 25, 2005 09:26 PM | Link to this

Try the St. Louis Post Dispatch. Lots of insight - speculation - discussion. Check out what Joe Buck has to say about the Cardinals being built like the Braves - a team for 162 games with no advance. Might try the Marietta paper, too. Maybe the Macon Telegraph.

By Carroll

October 25, 2005 09:28 PM | Link to this

david: all I know is that I go to a rumor site every day which links to stories from various papers across the country. Every day there are umteen new stories/rumors and follow-ups to previous stories/rumors. It may not be an every-day thing for every paper but it’s certainly more than we get here…..hell, some even have more to say about our Braves than we get here.

By Carroll

October 25, 2005 09:32 PM | Link to this

Besides, I said NY and Boston papers…there are certainly many many more papers in that area than those two that you mentioned.

Godbless, Carroll.

By MBATL

October 25, 2005 09:38 PM | Link to this

Ol Coach: the comment about the Cards (and the Braves?) being built for 162 games is why I mentioned in a previous post the rationale for a short first series in the playoffs. Seems to me that to win a division, your best chance is to put 5 solid starters out there, which the Braves and Cards do. But in a 5-game series, especially, you only need 3. That may be why so many wild card teams, whose rotations don’t go as deep, still flourish in the playoffs. To me, the short series is inconsistent with the nature of major league baseball. Just an observation.

But seems to me that NO team has been able to “build a team to win a championship.” That’s why it’s so rare to see repeat champions - obviously someone has to win each year, but nobody seems to have “figured it out” since the Yanks, with all that talent, in the late ’90s.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 25, 2005 09:44 PM | Link to this

How about a young guy instead of another old shoe? Mark Richt seems to have done the job at UGA. Ozzie Guillen is doing great with the white Sox. Jim Mora seems to make it work with the Falcons. Think outside the box.

Bobby can get you a division. Do you want more?

By david

October 25, 2005 09:47 PM | Link to this

Pro sports daily.com-I use it also Carroll,not arguing with you,just stating that most of the somewhat questionable rumors will be more in play in several weeks.A fact is that roughly 90% or better of the trade rumors NEVER happen.(though it does make good reading)Most of the trades that actually happen are ones that never appear in the media-the most recent example for the Braves being the Farnsworth trade.I defy anyone to document a blog,blurb,sentence, or even a mention of the KF trade before it was completed.The Detroit media had a couple of possible moves with the Braves but none included KF.ESPN,Fox, MLB.com,CBS sportsline all the media blurbs are good reading,but very rarely do the names that appear in print end up where they are rumored to be headed.

By Carroll

October 25, 2005 09:54 PM | Link to this

MBATL: your point is well-taken, but in the case of the Braves, as you look back on our playoff disasters of the last 6 years or so, can you honestly say that a seven game series would’ve made any differnece? The only one I can think of is possibly the 2002 series against the G-Men. In that series, 2 extra games might have helped us offset Glavine’s suckiness and BC’s blind loyal stupidity in continuing to run him out there in spite of his obvious suckiness?

Let’s see: 2000 swept by the Cards=no difference; 2003 vs. Cubs and their aces=no difference; 2004 no pitching=no difference; 2005 couldn’t hold a 5 run 8th inning lead=no difference.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 25, 2005 09:55 PM | Link to this

This old coach is a traditionalist. I don’t like the wild card, period. That said, it is here to stay because it produces revenue.

Great teams find a way to win. The Braves cannot be considered great - because they don’t win championships. The Braves are good - for 162 games.

They tanked in the last week of the regular season and remained tanked for the four playoff games.

Read what Joe Buck said:

“The Cardinals simply were overpowered by the Houston Astros in the National League Championship Series, says Joe Buck. And the Cards remind him of the Atlanta Braves - a team with much regular-season success but with postseason trouble.’

“I see (the Astros being) the flip side of what the Atlanta Braves and really what the Cardinals have done the last couple of years,” Buck said. “I think it’s shown up again. I think the Cardinals have been built the last two years to be a very good team over 162 games, just like the Braves were all those years and still are under Bobby Cox. But what you see in the postseason … is power pitching, and what power pitching can do for you. … The difference for me is what power pitching can do in October.”

By Carroll

October 25, 2005 09:58 PM | Link to this

david: that’s exactly my point. I just want good reading and conversation. I don’t care if they come true or not.

Speaking of which, david, did you catch the article by the guy in Detroit suggesting that Smoltz might come back home to save the Tigers? A perfect example of the rubbish that wouldn’t come true in a million years but stil interesting to read.

Godbless, Carroll.

By MBATL

October 25, 2005 10:08 PM | Link to this

Coach, good replies, and of course I want more than divisions, but I have a hard time dumping a HOF’er who is probably 5 bad plays or pitches from having 3 or 4 WS titles. And who gives my team a CHANCE to win every year. AND who gets nothing but praise from current and former players, no matter their age.

I get tired of hearing the same story from Braves fans who remember the bad ol days, but I AM one of them. I’d agree with breaking up the Mets, or the Phillies, or the Marlins - but the BRAVES? Just can’t see it.

Richt is great, I agree. We ran another youngster out between the hedges, think his name was Goff. Not so hot.

I like Mora, but Belicheck, Reid, Parcells, et al seem to do the job pretty well too. Guillen? Seems great so far, I agree, but kind of hard to tell at this point if it’s “great mgmt” or a talented team that is ‘hot’ at the right time.

It’s not a matter of age, but of ability.

The comment about power pitching is well taken - and I really don’t mean to disagree on everything as I learn from the debate. But I don’t think the Braves’ approach has been so lame as to justify throwing out the baby with the bathwater, as they say.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 25, 2005 10:25 PM | Link to this

Who gets ‘em hot at the right time? Who lights the fire? Who helps them understand this is the time to lay it on the line, run the bases, make the plays? Someone is not doing this for the Braves in October. HOF or not, I really don’t think Bobby has ‘em ready to play in October.

You said it best, what old guy do you want? The ol’ coach doesn’t want another old guy. Bring a younger coaching staff in here for these kids. UGA found Richt. Blank found Mora. It can be done.

The Braves have some strong arms. Down and away has been our curse. That curse now resides in Baltimore. High and tight - play to win - take control of the game - that’s what a strong, young manager could bring this team.

By Curveball

October 25, 2005 10:29 PM | Link to this

I would like to congradulate the Atlanta Braves for their 13 early exits from postseason play in 14 chances…you guys are great!…Bobby Cox please don’t do anything different in the future, your true fans love you just the way you are…and I wish you the best of luck in the 162 games coming up in 06…you won’t need any luck beyond that!

By Curveball

October 25, 2005 10:29 PM | Link to this

I would like to congratulate the Atlanta Braves for their 13 early exits from postseason play in 14 chances…you guys are great!…Bobby Cox please don’t do anything different in the future, your true fans love you just the way you are…and I wish you the best of luck in the 162 games coming up in 06…you won’t need any luck beyond that!

By LeTwan Anthony

October 25, 2005 10:46 PM | Link to this

Curveball, there you go again wanting to make a coaching change just because Bobby can’t win in the playoffs. According to Dave O’Brien ” …if you suggested that to serious baseball people involved at all levels in this World Series, be they hardcore fans, writers, players or team executives, you would be laughed at or simply given a look of utter amazement.”

LeTwan is having a chuckle right now and all over the ATL people are looking at you funny. (But you’re right!)

By doc

October 25, 2005 10:47 PM | Link to this

dob you are late to the party but you finally arrived to provide PERSPECTIVE and i commend you for it. hopefully, it will be a lesson that lasts. i’m the one you ripped because i was slaying that dog stat called risp and others accused of being pollyanna. it is interesting that aj’s peer’s voted him the mvp a bit back and sadly little mention of it in the ajc except in passing along with cox getting his award.

it may be offering some condolence for the way the season ended but id say our braves looked pretty good with the bat against the stalwart astros pitching almost as good as the sox and much better than the veteran laden cards. too bad smoltz’ shoulder died. i think we should have all understood how impressive the season was before september and then to see the silly responses to the outcome was rediculous. the only way to explain it is these silly games give people a life rather than embellish it.

as an aside another stat i hope goes by the wayside with that silly risp is the rediculous qb efficiency rating. now, before you come down on me again for my stand on the risp, :), let me say i do enjoy your comments and insights as it enhances my enjoyment of the game as i cant spend as much time watching as i would like. you and sekou have my repect as ernest and passionate writers.

by the way, was smoltz’ neck problem that was treated with steroid injections the same side as the shoulder injury he developed? if so he probably had defective nerve conduction creating an imbalance and setting him up for the damage. hopefully it isnt severe.

keep up the good work.

By Tomahawkin

October 25, 2005 10:51 PM | Link to this

Carroll’s Right check out the discussion boards at philly.com and you fairweather fans will realize how great the accomplishment of 14 straight titles although q title is… although its bee 10 years since our last title, try going back to 1980 for their last city title and 1993 for the last time the phillies experienced a post season. In the future I’d like to see the reasoning as to why Atlanta is such as bad sports town because living there for 10 years and now living outside the state I have several different views on this… Go Braves!!!

By MBATL

October 25, 2005 10:59 PM | Link to this

Didn’t say I want “an old guy”, Coach. Said I wanted Bobby Cox. And sorry, I just don’t buy the “lighting a fire” argument. The bullpen, not a lack of intensity, is the reason we lost in ‘05, and we knew going in it was weak.

I just keep coming back to wondering what franchise you’re using as the basis for what is acceptable.

I REEEAALLY want a dynasty too, but think we’re a lot closer with Bobby than going with a new guy for the sake of youth and “fire”.

Somehow I suspect we won’t come to an agreement on this, however.

By Eric

October 25, 2005 11:09 PM | Link to this

LeTwan, you raise an interesting point about success. Obviously, I won’t rise to the bait and try to debate which of us is the more successful, but it prompts the question of what constitutes success. Money? Chipper has lots of it, yet many call him a loser. Fame? Chipper is among the most well-known players in baseball, yet many call him a loser. Doing things better than most others do? The Braves have won 14 consecutive division championships - - a little better than most other teams do, won’t you agree? - - yet many call the Braves losers.

This takes us directly back to the point of the O’Brien article. Many folks define success as winning - - not a LOT of the time but ALL the time. That is so completely unreasonable that no one can possibly be successful - - except you and me, of course.

By Joe Toppe

October 25, 2005 11:16 PM | Link to this

Dave, I am sick and tired of peple defending Bobby Cox. He deserves all of the negative press. I have never seen a guy who gets more credit for finishing second or third in baseball. Pro sports is a bottom line business and the only thing that matters are world championships,NOT DIVISION CHAMPIONSHIPS. It would be different if the Braves had only had a couple bad post seasons, BUT EVERY YEAR?? Someone has to be held accountable.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 25, 2005 11:31 PM | Link to this

No, MBATL, we won’t agree but it’s fun to have the discussion.

You are right, you didn’t say “old” but you named Torre 65, LaRussa 61, and McKeon 75. Bobby’s 64.

A coach gets his team ready to play and I think that’s Bobby’s shortcoming in October.

We both saw lack of hustle in an elimination game. No excuse for that.

The 2005 bullpen is just one of thirteen excuses.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 25, 2005 11:43 PM | Link to this

My, my, Eric, that was beautiful. What happened to the name calling and class warfare?

You are king of the 12 man blog. That makes you a success in my book.

Too bad you didn’t take the challenge. I’ve watched you for weeks come down on folks who have a different read on things than you, (Carroll mostly) and I’d really like to know your success story that makes you special.

By Jerald

October 26, 2005 12:10 AM | Link to this

If the Braves ever want to win another world chamionship, the need to keep the good players that come and go JD drew, Gary Sheffield, Javy Lopez, Jarret wright, Kevin Millwood, and now Leo. How can we win in the playoffs with new people that have never been there. Cox is great but you can’t coach experience.

Oh and it also would help if Atlanta a city of 4 million plus people could put more than just 28,000 people in the stands I would never invest my money in a company that wasn’t making any.

By Curveball

October 26, 2005 12:59 AM | Link to this

Try telling ol’ George Steinbrenner that anything less than a World Series Championship is a success!

By Fushizzle

October 26, 2005 01:13 AM | Link to this

DOB,

You act as if the writers, broadcasters and other members of the “free lunch in the press box crowd” are the true voice of baseball.

They are not. It is the fans.

Most of the people I talk baseball with—both in Atlanta and from around the country—regard the Braves as serious underachievers to put it mildly.

As for Bobby Cox, I’d like to see him drop his rah-rah act whenever a Brave is at the plate.

It gets kind of annoying over the course of a three hour game.

By lewis

October 26, 2005 01:22 AM | Link to this

Ol’coach from wayback-question ? Jim Mora has never been to a Super Bowl,Mark Richt has never won a national championship(only 1 SEC title so far)Ozzie Guillen is conviently half way to a world title-not accomplished yet though.I will go on record right now that Richt will never win a national championship at UGA and Mora will never put the Falcons in the Super Bowl,What makes you hold them up as the type of person that the Braves should try to emulate?

By lewis

October 26, 2005 01:54 AM | Link to this

fushizzle,I’d venture the baseball discussions you have with your friends are held at the unemployment office,Speaking of the “free lunch crowd”

By uno

October 26, 2005 03:05 AM | Link to this

I don’t think anyone argues that Bobby is one of the best regular season managers ever. The problem is that he also happens to be one of the worst postseason managers ever. Playoff series - especially best of 5 - are determined so much by momentum that you simply can’t overlook the fact that Bobby starts off game 1 without his best players on the field. (Did anyone really think it was a good idea to start Jordan? I mean, when he made absolutely no contribution to the Braves making the playoffs this year?) And he makes moves like that year after year. Your manager blows one game and that can be the difference in a series. Granted, the Braves were underdogs this year but you can’t let Bobby off the hook when it happens over and over again. That being said, I wouldn’t suggest that Bobby should be fired unless they had Jim Leland or maybe a couple others in place to replace him. Still, I’d like to see just a little accountability. One time, I’d like to hear someone say that the goal is a WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP and anything short of that is unacceptable. And when LaDouche doesn’t run hard around the bases, I don’t want to hear any excuses as to why he became the only player in October baseball history not to hustle and give his best effort in the deciding game of a playoff series - There is no excuse. Bobby is one of the better managers but a little sense of urgency come playoff time would be nice. And it remains to be seen whether he can get back without Leo.

By Carroll

October 26, 2005 07:22 AM | Link to this

Poor Astros. Believe me, I know how you feel, and my heart bleeds for you. You prolly sat up all night thinking: dammit…and, what if…and, if only this or that…etc, ad nauseum. Hang in there.

Godbless, Carroll.

By THL

October 26, 2005 07:28 AM | Link to this

The truth of the matter is that the Braves just haven’t been the best team in the playoffs since ‘96 (an argument can be made for the offensive juggernaut of ‘03 even though they had questionable pitching. They are losing to better teams for the most part. Houston had almost the same record as the Braves this year and were playing out of their mind to make the playoffs (funny how you’d never know that from their current 3-0 deficit). Also, to be honest, the Braves haven’t even been the best team in their own division…they are just the best coached.

As far at the “Philly fans” guy…only people from that city could possibly find a way to call a team that beats their team (even with inferior personnel)every year “chockers.” Maybe they have forgotten what division they lose every year.

By Carroll

October 26, 2005 07:45 AM | Link to this

It is utter nonsense to say that we lost out to better teams! Maybe in 2004 when we had abslutely zero pitching….but even then, if you’re good enough to get there, you’re good enough to win….case in point, look at all the wildcard WS winners over the past several years. They certainly made the most of their golden opportunity rather than coming up with excuses (and they actually would have had decent excuses, being the wildcard team and all!).

Godbless, Carroll.

By KneeJerk

October 26, 2005 08:21 AM | Link to this

uno, Come on… Jim Leyland? He can’t hold Bobby’s jock. He never met a job he couldn’t quit. He QUIT in Pittsburgh, he QUIT in Florida, and he QUIT in Colorado. Soon, he will QUIT in Detroit. The only thing he can’t quit is smoking. Did you see Leyland’s press conference after he accepted the Tigers job? He admitted he didn’t know much about the Tigers OR the American League. Do you think he’ll last long? Cox beat Leyland’s Pirates 2 times in the post-season. Leyland, Eric Gregg, and the Marlins beat the Braves and bought the World Series in ‘97.

By Paul Hamilton

October 26, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this

Well this might be a bit early but only one team gets the glory every year. Braves had as good of a season as the Astros. I guess Joe Buck will be wrong when the astros lose the series. Explain to me how the Astros can be the reverse of the braves?? How many ws titles do they have in the last 14 years? And the Cardinals? What about the Giants? The Marlins are about the only team i can think of besides the Yanks that have had any serious success recently. Lets get one think straight I gave up on the Braves two years ago. I couldnt take it anymore. I dont care how they fair now, but the Braves have been as successful in the playoffs as anyone else beside the Marlins, Yanks, and a little ways back to the Blue Jays. Well you guys like to say 1 in 14 sucks and I agree but how about the 0-14 for most everyone else. Alot of people on here seem to only count it if you make the playoffs but EVERY season counts so they have the same attempts as the Braves do.

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this

No team can win the WS every year. When you think about it, there are 30 teams in the league. Each team has a 1 in 30 chance of winning the WS now that the wild card is available. Since the wild card format 40 % of the WS champs have been a wild card winner. If Chicago can finish off Houston, then that will go down slightly. But any team can make the playoffs now. And with the extended playoffs and the 5 game division series, it’s a crap shoot.

If MLB wants to fix itself, they need to go back to 2 divisions because the talent is spread across the divisions too much. And with unbalanced shedule, the one grea tteam from each division gets to beat up on the 2 or 3 really weak teams in the division all year long. Take that and add it to the fact that the interleague games are not fair either, you have weaker teams making the playoffs. So the best 8 teams do not make it to the playoffs. They could go back to the balanced shcedule and 7 game division series, then the real best teams would make it.

As much as I love the Braves; there were some years in the last 14 that the they should not have been in the playoffs. But due to the unbalanced schedule and the weakened divisions, they won the East. The biggest problem that people see with the Braves is 1 WS title in 14 straight playoff appearances. But if you take out a few post seasons, then it does not look as bad. But this playoff format is just a crap shoot. Since the wild card, only too teams have more than 1 WS title. The Yankees, who bought it in ‘98, ‘99 and ‘00; and the Marlins who bought it in ‘97, then had a fire sale in ‘98.

It makes it a lot easier to win WS title when one has an unlimited payroll. But even that has not worked for the Yankees the last 5 years.

Just for the record, I think what the Braves have done is great.

By Matt

October 26, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

I lived in the so-called ATL for the first twenty years of my life. I, like many of you suffered through the 1980’s and still consider Dale Murphy a hero. Now as an adult, I have made a career in professional baseball and have seen some really long seasons. Let me say this, World Series or not, what really is important is to have the chance to win it. If you don’t have a chance, you are most certainly not going to win it. I will gladly take one World Series title in the past 14 years, considering what the White Sox, Cubs, Astros, Rangers, Brewers, Pirates, Angles, Royals(the list keeps going) have gone through in their history. Lets not forget so quickly what Red Sox fans had gone through before last season.

By Carroll

October 26, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

BB: you’re right. The Braves have done an excellent job of consistently putting themselves in position to at least have a chance to win the WS. But they just haven’t closed the deal. But To compare them to the royals, etc. is apples and oranges. It’s almost like comparing the Atlanta Braves to the Richmond Braves in the sense that the Richmond Braves don’t even have a chance to win a WS…..similarly, the royals, d-rays etc don’t have a real, legitimate chance to win it….so to try and make yourself feel beter about the Braves by essentially comparing them to the Richmond Braves (royals, d-rays, etc) is like saying you smell better than doo-doo….it’s not saying a whole lot.

The only way they do compare to one another is that it’s equally as pathetic to be the royals and never put your team in position to even have a chance to win a WS, as it is to be the Braves who have had these golden opportunites of getting into the payoffs, and have squandered them.

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this

Carroll, I hate to burst your bubble, but the D-Rays actually played better than .500 ball the second half of the season. And they are a very young team with a lot of young guys coming up soon. The Brewers are in the same boat. Both teams should be good within a few years.

Now you may have a point about the Royals. Them along with the Rockies and Pirates are really the only teams that go into each year without a chance at a winning season. But even the Pirates have improved a lot.

All teams have ups and downs. KC was great from the mid 70’s through the mid 80’s. The team won the division 7 times and the WS in 85. The Pirates were a force in the late 80’s and early 90’s. The Indians were great from the early 90’s through 2001. They won 6 divisions w/ 2 WS appearances. And they are good again. But in the 80’s they sucked. The Braves were awful from the 70’s through the 80’s (except for ‘82) but they have been a force since 1991, with 1 WS title. The Yankees were horrible in the 80’s and early 90’s. They have been a force since 1994. Of course, with an unlimited payroll, it’s easier to do that. The Red Sox had not won a WS since 1918 (until last year), the White Sox since 1917. But the White sox sucked in the late 80’s and early 90’s but have been solid since and should win the WS this year (up 3 games to 0). Are you following me here? 1 WS title in a long run of solid baseball is normal.

It’s VERY rare for teams to win multiple WS titles, especially in todays playoff format!!!! Even if a team out spends every other team, it does not guarantee it. You think it is your right to have the Braves win the WS but it’s not.

The Braves were not even expected to finish better than 4th place this year. In fact, in each of the last 4 or 5 years, they have not been expected to win the East. But they have.

I don’t need to make myself feel better about the Braves. See, I unlike some people, do not have impossible expectations. The Braves can NOT win the WS every year. Especially with a reduced payroll. But even an unlimited payroll does not mean a team will win the WS. See the Yankees the last 5 years. To win the WS, everything has to go perfectly. A team needs luck as well as skill.

I know you say you are tired of excuses, but if not for a few plays over the years in the WS, the Braves would have at least 2 more. ‘91 and ‘96…L Smith’s baserunner error and Wohlers hanging slider. Just bad luck because Smith was always a good baserunner and Wohlers did have a good slider.

And again, recently, the post season is just a crap shoot anyway.

By kevin

October 26, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this

Hey LeTwan, I wanna see you try and manage an MLB team through a 162-game schedule with a winning record and through a playoff series. Once you can do that come out with a WS ring, then you can flap your mouth about how the Braves are ‘horrible.’

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this

Carroll, Why do you think there are so many players that have never won a WS? It’s because each year, it only happens for 1 team of 30 and 25 guys out of 750 major leaguers. Actually that 750 is probably 1000 because of call ups and so on throughout the season.

That is why every rookie DREAMS of winning the WS. Because it does not happen for everybody. Some guys’ dreams do come through. It did for the Braves players most recently in 1995.

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Letwan, why do you speak about yourself in the 3rd person?

By Carroll

October 26, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

kevin: that is such a ridiculous argument. According to your logic, nobody is entitled to an opinion if they haven’t played, coached, etc. Guess there won’t be a league then because there certainly would not be enough qualified fans and/or opinionless fans to go around.

BB: I’m talking about the d-rays, royals, rockies, etc of this year….not future years or years past. This year, NONE of those teams had any kind of a chance to get into the playoffs. And I do not have unrealistic expectations…it would be unrealistic to expect the royals to win the WS but it is never far fetched to expect or think that any team that’s good enough to get in the playoffs could win the WS. Again, look at the wildcard teams getting to and winning the WS over the past several years. Personally, I was prepared to be happy with just getting out of the 1st round this year….I was gonna go running around the neghbrhood screaming when we got that final out (possibly naked). I don’t think that’s expecting too much.

And again, 1/14 is not a crapshoot….it’s a virtual stone cold, lead pipe, iron clad lock!

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

Some guys’ dreams do come through was supposed to be Some guys’ dreams do come true.

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Carroll, If you are talking about just this year, then the Braves were not even expected to finish better than 3rd place in the East. The Marlins and Phillies were better teams. They were not even supposed to make the playoffs. The reason I am using past and future teams is because you are saying the Braves have 1 WS title in the PAST 14 years. How many different organizations went to the playoffs in the past 14 years? I will tell you…it’s 25. SO it should be 1 in 25 for the last 14 years, not 1/14. In the last 30 years, there have been 29 diff. organizations to make the post season. Tampa Bay is the only organization to never make the post season. But…they are looking better each year. And with the young talent they have, they should soon.

See, I am talking about year to year. It’s not the same 8 teams going to the playoffs each year. Sometimes you talk like the Braves should win the WS every year. But now you’re saying, winning 1 WS in 14 years is iron clad. But that is not even correct. 1 in 30 is correct because there are 30 teams.(See above paragraph) And yes, right now KC does not have a chance but 20 years ago, they did and won. 16 years ago, the Braves had no chance but 10 years ago they did and won.

Over the long haul every team has chances. That is why I gave you all those examples of ups and downs for teams. I am surprised at how long the Braves have had a chance to win. But, like I said some of those years, they really did not deserve to be in the playoffs. They made it because of the weakened state of all divisions and the unbalanced schedule.

So, again, what the Braves have done over the last 14 years is amazing, even with “just” 1 WS title.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 26, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

kevin with a little “k”, the reference to the Braves being horrible was pre-1991. They’ve been very good since - in regular season. In your scenario for me there is one glaring error - you mention getting the WS ring. You hold me to a higher standard than you hold Bobby - who’s getting paid to produce. You see, kevin, the ring is what is missing. If Bobby could get the ring I’d love him as much as you - except for the spousal abuse.

BB Fan, LeTwan was educated in the public schools and my Auntie, a college professor, taught me composition. I come at it a little different than you do. “Some guys’ dreams do come through.”

By JS

October 26, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

LeTwan - Please keep referring to yourself as LeTwan… exposes your genius.

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Letwan, Bobby has a ring with the Braves. He won it in 1995. ANd referring to yourself in the 3rd person is just…different. That’s all.

Carroll, There have only been 9 different teams to win a WS title in the last 14 years. And only 19 diff teams to win it in the last 30 years. And 23 different to ever win it. (before 1903, there was no real post season) I guess you MIGHT be right to a point, not every team is able to win the WS. Houston, Seattle, Texas, Washington, and San Diego have all had very good teams at some point but just never won it all. Tampa Bay and Colorado have yet to have very good teams. I think TB will soon. But Colorado might never because of the high altitude.

Either way you look at it, Atlanta has done great over the last 15 years. Even in ‘94, they probably would have made it as the Wild card.

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

Letwan, You claim Bobby has not won a ring. Does 1995 not count? Or did you forget that season?

By Tennessee

October 26, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Great article. Well said. Well put.

it’s as bedeviling as being a Cubs fan…

The Altanta Braves won a world series 10 years ago. They won an NL Penant 6 years ago. They’ve won the division every year for the past decade and a half.

The Cubs, well, they haven’t won a world series in 97 years. There is nothing, nothing, in baseball that compares to the Cubs level of failure. The Cubs even have the worst, and most lame curse: The Curse of the Goat. It’s such a lame curse it showed 40 years after their last World Series win.

And, the Braves didn’t win it all this year because we weren’t the best team in baseball. That’s all there is to it. But we were better than those filthy, filthy Mets. Better than the Phillies. Better than the Marlins. Better than the Nats. Way better than the Dodgers…

Also, the Boss wouldn’t fire Cox. Why would he fire Cox and not fire Torre? If you haven’t noticed, Torre has been every year now for 8 years, and for the last 5 hasn’t won. He’s still in pinstripes. No, the Boss would keep Cox and up the payroll to 300 million.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 26, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

BB, yeah, I know he has a ring. Wish he had 3 or 4.

JS, thanks, man.

By WhenItwasa Game

October 26, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

BB Fan, you seem to be a true fan of the game and have some very sound (i.e. fact-based) opinions. I am in total agreement about the greedy rot that has entered the game since divisional play thereby making old fashioned dynasties impossible and the WS winner no champion at all, just lucky in many cases.

Carroll, I will be pulling for the Braves to win the NLCS next year…just to see you running naked through the streets of ATL :-)

LeTwan, you have some great comments, but you admited your biggest weakness…educated in a public school. I have that problem too, but let’s keep it quiet, ok?

I have a personal friend in the Braves organization, a fine gentleman and professional BB man all the way…he says Bobby Cox is made of the finest character; and if you don’t think he is a brilliant manager, you obviously have never played or understand the game. Even brilliance, however, has moments of shade…as we say in the South “the sun don’t shine of the same dawgs a$$ all the time”.

Regardless of what anybody may say, we were all well entertained by the Braves organization this year…your healthy discussion is proof positive of that. Isn’t baseball the greatest game ever played?

By Ivan Drago

October 26, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

When are you poor deluded losers going to drop the idea that the Braves “weren’t even supposed to win the division.”

After the aquisition of Tim Hudson, EVERYBODY picked them to win the N.L. East.

They did….then did the usual EL FOLDO at play-off time.

They accomplished absolutely ZIP this season, as usual.

By Charles

October 26, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Can we all agree that there are two points to make here:

1. The Braves almost assuredly would NOT have made the playoffs the last 14 years in a row without Bobby Cox, AND

2. The Braves could have possibly won more than 1 World Series title in the last 14 years without Bobby Cox.

So, you must decide - is it better to be in the dance every year and have a shot, or to have a chance to win the whole salami more than once during that span, even if that means that the playoffs are only made a small percentage of those 14 times.

Just depends on the kind of fan you are. Doesn’t make you wrong or right. Many, many fans of the 30 teams would trade spots with Braves fans. Quite certainly, at least fans of about 26 or 27 teams.

Lets keep this in perspective, shall we?

By Charles

October 26, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

By the way, Drago, you are simply wrong. For you to say that the Braves did not accomplish anything this year, when they had more rookies than ANY other team in major league baseball, is ludicrous. Ask the Phillies, the Marlins and Mets if the Braves accomplished anything this year. C’mon…

By WhenItwasa Game

October 26, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Ivan,

As the opposite of a fan, your attitude represents everything that’s wrong about MLB (not baseball, just MLB) today…if fact, it is those with your cynical attitude that are largely responsible for why MLB has become the commercialized greedy onster that it is today. What happened to enjoying a ball game and everything about the game (talented players, grumpy umps, the crack of the bat, feeling lke a kid again, etc.), not just who won the game. Sure, winning is part of the joy, a big part, but to say that the Braves accomplished “ZIP” this year is not only ludicrous, but tells us more about YOU than it does the Braves.

Clearly, they accomplished providing the Real fans of the game with endless hours of great baseball from April through September (and a wee bit of October). You are obviously one of those so-called fans that is really no fan at all…one of those who just wants a championship team for bragging rights around the office. Oh well…maybe pick another team to be cynical about?

By WhenItwasa Game

October 26, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Yes, Charles, we can definitely agree on that, but in addition, you would have to agree that the Braves are an organization and we would need to include our very bright and saavy GM, coaches, scouts, and minor league system people in your kudos to Mr. Cox. With a “team” like that, we should be in good hands for years to come…as long as AOL/TW don’t start thinking they know something about baseball.

By Charles

October 26, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

No doubt, indeed.

By BB FAN

October 26, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

Ivan Drago, Carroll, That’s not you, is it? Anyway, the Braves were picked to finish behind the Marlins and Phillies by many experts this year. Hudson was a good pick up, but remember, Mondesi and Jordan did not strike fear into anybody. Trust me, not many experts picked the Braves to finish 1st. And what these rookies did this year was truly amazing. No team with 6 rookies with at least 100 at bats has ever made the post season. ANd then or 4 rookie pitchers played a significant role in the bullpen and rotation.

WhenItwasa Game, I agree with you about certain office bragging fans. And you are right about the reasons to love the game. I always tell my wife that the biggest reason I love baseball is because it brings me back to when I was a kid. Trust me, I wish the Braves had a few more rings but I am happy they have one.

And I’m so glad to be a fan of a great organization like the Braves’. I guess I was lucky that the only sports channel we got in the late 80’s was TBS. (When I was a kid) I used to be so jealous of my friends that had all those other channels. Well it made me a die hard Braves fan because that was the only team on.

By WhenItwasa Game

October 26, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this

Amen, BB. I remember those great Braves teams with lousy records too…and we loved them just the same and wacthed in hopes that one day…

But I’m a little senior to you…when I was a kid we had the Mick and Koufax, and Dandy Don and mean Bob Gibson and Willie…that was before the Braves became the icon of Ted Turner’s “new” South.

Such great baseball…and hey, there were no divisional playoffs…amazing.

By Lon

October 26, 2005 07:12 PM | Link to this

When I hear comments like “they win division titles, but choke in the post season,” I am reminded of the frequent Wall St. comment “this company makes lots of money, but it doesn’t excite the analysts, so its stock is depressed.”

In order words, there are certain values that are reflected in management styles that produce certain results. This is certainly not a knock on Bobby Cox or John Schuerholz because I have the greatest admiration for them.

It seems to me the Braves’ philosophy stresses teamwork, not hero worship; longevity, not personal superiority; fiscal responsibility, not win at any cost. Only in the Braves system could 18 rookies play and not have it totally destroy the team.

I would rather have a team that wins consistently than a one-year flash in the pan. We should be looking at 14 years of division titles as an unbeatable record in these days when players can pretty much move anywhere they want.

By Mike Root

October 26, 2005 09:51 PM | Link to this

It’s all Time Warners fault. Give Bobby a little more to work with.MONEY that is! Don’t need much.

By Ron G.

October 26, 2005 10:27 PM | Link to this

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head…the Braves had a great year period.

By dannycardwell

October 27, 2005 12:25 AM | Link to this

well. i see you boys are still at it. im going to tell all of you once so listen. most of the teams that win the world series do it with good pitching, especially starting pitching. maddux glavine were ok but only ok. we need starters that can average between 7-8 innings. that is what wins playoff games. get furcals a* out of here, and giles too if he wants to be hank aaron. spend the money on don sutton type pitchers. i think he went 167 complete games on his way to the hall of fame. we spend all the money all the time on hitting. look at the last 15 years of the world series. pitching for nearly all of them. anybody still want brad lidge? not mentioning any names. bring up more kids let the GREEDY players go. spend the money on people that can go the distance, aka. white sox. 69 million dollar pay roll by the way. it still not how much money but how its spent. sureholtz is no where as good as advertised. get billy beane in here to get bobby what he really needs.

By Curveball

October 27, 2005 12:37 AM | Link to this

Bobby “needs” to go home and stay there!…

By Joe Toppe

October 27, 2005 12:39 AM | Link to this

All of you idiots who continue to praise Bobby Cox and John Schurholtz need to understand one thing. It is your fault that the Braves continue to fall short. Every year when the Braves lose, you people will congatulate them, and for what??????? For winning 100 games during the regular season and then getting spanked by some wild card team they handled easily during the regular season. Cox and Schuholtz both need to be replaced. P.S. I miss Greg Maddux.

By Tomahawkin

October 27, 2005 12:52 AM | Link to this

Joe You Miss Greg Maddux, Man I miss guys like Justice, Sanders, and Gant, The guys that made dem Braves the most electrifying team in the game, (ALA the falcons of today) instead of a bunch of overpaid, lazy, no emotion showing primadonnas

JS go get Larry Bowa as third base coach if Terry or Freddy leaves, or Bring back Justice or Brian Jordan as a coach if he hangs em up

By uno

October 27, 2005 01:28 AM | Link to this

Tomahawkin, the Braves ARE the Falcons of baseball - that is, the team who wins in the regular season but has absolutely NO CHANCE of doing anything in the playoffs. What is electrifying about the Falcons? You mean because they play a running back at quarterback? I’d say there are quite a few NFL running backs that could line up behind center for 8-10 games each year and complete 40% for 100 yards and 3 interceptions. Personally, I’m more “electrified” by a team that can actually throw the ball. Vick wouldn’t even be in the league if he couldn’t run. The Falcons will never win anything as long as they’re stuck with the most overrated player in the league and that 130 mil contract. Kind of like how the Braves face an uphill battle every October with BC in the dugout, only moreso.

By marky d

October 27, 2005 01:30 AM | Link to this

Anyone remember the 91 World Series ? Lonnie loses track of the ball and get’s faked out by knoblauch and then they left them loaded with no one out and didnt score.The 1996 world series, mark wohlers meltdown in the eighth inning of game four ? Don’t blame Bobby Cox for the failure of the players to execute. This franchise should have at least three World Championship’s. Bobby Cox is a great manager who has been victimized time and again by his player’s failure in the playoff’s. Go BRAVOS !

By Tomahawkin

October 27, 2005 02:44 AM | Link to this

Until Vick Matures, the statement about him being in the league has a little validity until he can makes adjustments and prove otherwise, but the thing he does do well is bring the people wheather they are bandwagon fairweather fans or diehards, and those fans bring out the excitement that carries the team to greater heights, much like Justice summed up prior to game 6 of the 95 series

By BB FAN

October 27, 2005 07:50 AM | Link to this

Getting Justice as a coach would be great for the Braves. The one thing that seems to be missing each year is emotion. The rookies provided a lot of emotion this year which is why the Braves did as well as they did. One thing that Cox lacks is that intense emotion. Justice provided that in ‘95. Hopefully these young guys keep it up in ‘06 and beyond because they are a great young nucleus.

By KneeJerk

October 27, 2005 07:53 AM | Link to this

Just a thought… I know LaRoche loafed all the way from first. How could Fredi not see that. Whay did he send him home? Carl Crawford couldn’t have made it from 3rd to home in that situation.

By doc

October 27, 2005 08:12 AM | Link to this

intense emotion doesnt work in baseball. look at what happened in ny with the mets with valentine and what happened with the phillies the three years before this year.

what does concern me is that when the braves lock it up they tend to go into a shell and go back into their spring training mentality that they seem to be unable to shake when the bell rings. i think they tend to lose focus while the auditions go on for the last spots or they rest in anticipation of the playoffs instead of getting ready for the playoffs by taking no prisoners down the stretch.

overall atlanta fans should be grateful for what has been accomplished.

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 09:00 AM | Link to this

I have a suggestion for those of you who are “sick and tired” of the Braves winning division titles, and often falling short of the elusive World Series title.

Stop following the team. Get another. You’re absurd to gripe about Bobby Cox. He’s not going away, so find another team. It’s that simple.

The LeTwans, the Carrolls, et al… guys, seriously, you’ll never be happy til he’s gone, and when he goes and the team doesn’t do as well, it’ll be Schuerholz head next. Then it’ll be Terry McGuirk, then AOL/TW.

Some of you guys are so short-sighted with your griping, that you don’t even stop to notice that NOBODY is racking up WS titles, anymore. Parity is alive and well in Major League Baseball.

In the last ten seasons, the teams that’ve won the most World Series titles is…

The Yankees with three, the Marlins with two, and five other franchises with one apiece.

Nobody’s “making excuses” about this season’s performance of Bobby Cox; they’re stating facts, folks. EIGHTEEN ROOKIES - FACT. BULLPEN LETDOWN - FACT. Hindsight’s 20/20, but there’s not a manager out there with more than one WS title this millenium. Be careful what ya try to ward off… you WILL find yourelf missing it when it’s gone.

But, again, if you’re tired of the Braves’ direction, the Devil Rays’ bandwagon has plenty of room. Hop on; you can say you were a fan when being a fan wasn’t cool.

By John Horton

October 27, 2005 09:04 AM | Link to this

Your column is “right on the money.” Being originally from Augusta, I remember the days of watching the Braves with my grandmother and hoping they might get somewhere near .500 ball. It would be great to see the Braves advance in the postseason more regularly - BUT, if I had to choose, I would rather watch them with the realistic hope of seeing them win 90-100 games during the regular season.

Anyone that says Bobby Cox, Furcal, Giles or LaRoche should “move on” or “let go” wasn’t watching the same games I watched and they don’t know baseball. Go Braves!

By John Horton

October 27, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this

TD’s rant that the Braves are “chokers” according to him, the Yankees, etc. leaves me wondering what the “the Boss” thinks of the return he got on his investment in the Yankees this year - what Colossal choke that was. TD must be really proud of both the Yankees and the Os.

As for the Boss sending Bobby packing - I don’t see anyone praising the job “the Boss” and Joe did this year.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 09:18 AM | Link to this

Ron Roberts, you say the same thing in every post. Learn to cut and paste and you won’t have to type it every time. Your buddy, LeTwan

p.s. The White Sox just racked up a WS. That ties ‘em with the Atlanta Braves.

By BB FAN

October 27, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this

doc, I think that a certain amount of emotion does help. But too much can hurt as you said. If not for Justice’s emotion in ‘95, I’m not sure the Braves would have won. If you look at the years Justice played (1990-1996), the Braves went to the WS in ‘91, ‘92, ‘95 and ‘96. He was traded in the Spring of 1997. The Braves have only made it to the WS one more time in ‘99. He was that emotional leader. The kind that is needed to keep the guys playing after they win the division. Cox does not light the fire under them like a Justice did. And none of the players are the kind of leader Justice was. They need some fire. But I do agree that too much fire will hurt a team.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this

LeTwan: I know….tired isn’t it? I swear I think he’s paid by the Braves or the players to come on here and spin. But godbless him….all of him.

Why do people think we are expecting too much or that we expect the Braves to win a WS every year etc etc ad nauseum. NOBODY has said that! You guys obviously don’t realize how pathetic it looks to all the objective observers THAT WE CAN’T GET OUT OF THE FREAKIN FIRST ROUND! I , for one, as I said above would have been satisfied with winning the div. series. JUst show me something Braves! That’s not asking too much!

And I think you guys have it wrong when you compare us to other teams like the royal, d-rays, or even the Braves of the 70’s-80’s. You think they and their fans look at us and say dang it’d be nice if we were like today’s Braves. NO! They say, look at those pathetic losers! They have all this opportunity and blow it every year.

Looking back, does ANYBODY in football say dang I wish we were the Buffalo Bills of 91-94? Hell NO! Why? Because they were an embarrassment for all the squandered opportunities! Every bit the embarrassment that the Falcons were back then…the only difference between the Bills and the loser a* Falcons of those days? The Bills did it on the world’s biggest stage…just like the Braves!

It’s like the typical story of the spoiled little rich daddy’s boy that has all the opportunity in the world handed to him on a silver platter, and then he proceeds to p** it all away by making one bad decision after the other, and not taking full advantage of his opportunites, and in general not caring. Just like the Braves…they never care too much about wining this year because they think they’ll always be back next year. Well, if our franchise slips into a multi-generational funk, a la the BoSox, the ChiSox, the Cubs, etc…you guys and your children and your grandchildren will look back and say, if only we had taken advantage of all those chances when we had them.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this

And, doc: Valentine and his fiery temper not only appeared in a WS and won a WS game more recently than your Braves, but he also just won the Japanese WS. I think there’s something to be said for that.

By KneeJerk

October 27, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this

Maybe nobody looks back now and wishes they played for the Bills, but after every SB loss, I’ll bet free agents wanted to go there to help get them over the hump. I’d much rather be a braves fan and go 1/14 than be a Marlins fan (2/2). The Marlins are either a Champion or an embarrassment. We are at the very least RESPECTABLE every year, and we don’t wear teal.

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this

Carroll, you just CAN’T believe for a second that more than one person rolls their eyes in disdain when you make an insipid post,eh?

I post with my REAL NAME *uh, first AND last, you’ll note), my REAL e-mail address LINKED here, as well. Why on earth, please answer this, would I need to use pseudonyms? Get that through your skull and move on w/that stupid conspiracy theory.

I work DAILY with a Baltimore Orioles fan who’d LOVE to, as she put it, “go through a dozen or so years of playoff baseball.” I work with an Astros fan, who today, understands only a slight touch of the angst of the typical Braves fan, but said this morning, they’d do it all over again, and hope to.

Ask a Falcons fan if they’d have enjoyed BEING the Buffaclo Bills in the early 90s, and the typical Falcons fan would tell ya “it’d have been better than being what the Falcons were, those years…”

This arrogant presumption that the Carrolls of the world think THEY could manager the Braves better than Bobby Cox is laughable. SOME folks were ready to ship off our MVP caliber centerfielder in May in a panicky “let’s post every idea out there to change things” spree. SOME folks were trashing Tim Hudson here and there throughout a season he ONLY managed to go 1409 with a 3.52 ERA in his first year in the National League. I guess he would’ve been on the trade block, too.

Man-for-man, MLB players, coaches, managers, GMs, owners, sportswriters… they ALL praise the job Bobby Cox, John Schuerholz and the organization do. But they’re not as bright as SOME folks who post here, apparently.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

1. I never claimed that I could manage the Braves. I asked for Sweet Lou or someone of the like who could brig fire and energy.

2. I suggested trading AJ just like your revered GM almost DID, and I think would still do if the right offer came along.

3. I’m a falcons fan, and let me ask you this: in the end, What’s the difference in being the falcons and looking stupid in the regular season and being the bills who looked stupid on the world’s biggest stage four years in a row?

4. I too praise BC, but I’m just saying that if we want to see something different…something possibly better or something possibly worse, it’s time for some kinda significant change. It can be BC, or it can be CJ.

5. I did dis Hudson, and I stand by that. He had a great game 4, but it was too little, too late. He was supremely mediocre this year, and that’s not what we traded for!

Ultimately, Ronnie, it comes down to this: if you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you awlays got. If that’s good enough for you, fine…I can respect that. But please respect my desire to see just a little something more. Especially when we’re so capable.

Godbless all! CArroll.

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

14-9 3.52 ERA is “mediocre?” In a guy’s first season in the senior circuit? I’ll agree to disagree with you on that end.

As a LIFELONG Falcons fan, I’d have taken three Super Bowl defeats over Deion Sanders bolting for better teams, Jerry Glanville leaving tickets at ‘Will Call’ for Elvis, Jeff George, et al. WHO was the laughingstock in those years???

By the way,let’s clear something up… our “revered” general manager will LISTEN to any offer; that doesn’t mean he actually CONSIDERS them… he just listens. You actually SUGGESTED it. He listened to offers. He always does. It’s what GMs do.

Lastly, “Sweet Lou” managed to win HOW many World Series with those good Reds and Mariners squads? One, was it?

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

I should also mention this…

Somebody needs to wipe away this misbegotten notion that the Braves just ‘stand pat’ and do the same thing year in, year out. I disagree.

We did the ‘strong pitching, solid defense, just enough hitting’ thing for most of the ’90s and won nine division titles, five NL pennants and a World Series.

We continued with that in ‘01 and ran up against Johnson and Schilling with ‘stronger’ pitching.

We scrapped that and went with beefy bats and ‘just enough’ pitching and so-so defense. That got us swept in round 1 of 2002.

We stayed with that in 2002, squeaked past Houston in round 1 and got the boot again in the NLCS.

So we lost Sheffield, picked up J.D. Drew and figured “this is gonna suck.” Didn’t happen. Won another division title and bowed out in Round One.

This year, we went back to stronger starting pitching (see: White Sox 2005) and a patchwork lineup and bullpen. Didn’t work out, but that patchwork lineup is FAR more solid now. All we were missing was a freaking bullpen.

But the point is… we’re not doing “the same thing” every year. They tinker. They add players, they drop players, they go with different looks, they play with different methods… the constant?

The manager.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

1. Lou Pinella has worked with a lot less talent than BC has been handed on a silver platter. Hell, he even managed to get the D-Rays some measure of respectability this year. I wonder if even BC could do that. And yes, just one WS ring, but a record about equal to BC. Again, not saying he will be the magic elixour or that he would guarantee a WS, but it would guarantee something different. That’s what I want, for better or worse.

2. And yes the stats look okay for Huddy, but anyone who watched was dissapointed in his overall performance. Particularly when he got us behind the eight ball in game 1. I thought we were getting a Roy Oswalt or Mark Buehrle type pitcher who could dominate and win 20 or so games….instead we basically got another Russ Ortiz. I still have hope that this was just an off year, but I have justifiable concerns.

3. That is hillarious about Glanville leaving tix at will-call for Elvis. Hadn’t heard that one before. But I still maintain that in the end, the coons were no worse off than the bills. At the time, yeah their seasons were prolly more exciting and enjoyable for their fans, but IN THE END they have nothing to show for it except being remembered as underachievers.

Godbless all, Carroll.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this

Carroll, LeTwan looked up “insipid” and I want you to know Ron Roberts isn’t being very nice again. LeTwan thinks you rankle RR. Maybe LeTwan does a little bit, too. Ozzie’s tied with Bobby for WS rings!

By Charles

October 27, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this

Carroll said it all when he/she/it said “your Braves.” Not “our Braves.”

Carroll, to respond,

1. Ask the D’Rays young players how they feel about “Sweet Lou.” There is a reason Ozzie and the other young managers do well with young players - they don’t respond to “Sweet Lou.”

2. You were adamant about trading Andruw Jones. Don’t make yourself look silly by having me find your idiotic posts.

3. You want people to hear what you are saying, and sometimes you make semi-sense, but you won’t hear or acknowledge what they say as being their OPINION. That makes you look simple minded. Please, for the love of GodBless, recognize that people have different opinions and views about success. Yes, every team and player wants to win it all. They are disappointed when they don’t. But, there are levels of success.

A player, team or fan can be happy that they made the playoffs when they had more rookies than any other team in MLB, or when they were deplete with injuries. They doesn’t mean they are satisfied with not winning it all. But, they can be proud of winning 14 division titles. Nothing wrong with that.

Understand the difference between pride and satisfaction. They should be proud to win 14 straight with one World Series. They are one of only 4 teams to have that distinction in the last 10 years.

People like you and LeTwan revel in disagreeing. That’s fine. But, you just look like self-centered fools when you won’t recognize others’ opinions and call them a moron or idiot for having them. Wake up.

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this

Lou did a good job w/the D-Rays this year, yes. But Bobby did EVEN BETTER managing half of the RICHMOND/MISSISSIPPI Braves this year. And Lou HAD talent in Cincy and Seattle. One ring.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

1. Charles: here is a paste from my previous post to Ronnie:

Ultimately, Ronnie, it comes down to this: if you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you awlays got. If that’s good enough for you, fine…I can respect that. But please respect my desire to see just a little something more. Especially when we’re so capable.

Sounds to me like you guys are the ones who have trouble accepting the opinions of others…not I!

1. Since I can’t call up the d-rays youg players and “ask them about sweet lou” I’ll just go by the fact that he led them to the 1st or 2nd best record in baseball in the 2nd half…Also, the fact that his record is equal to BC and he has as many rings. Nuff said. Besides, it’s just my opinion. Why are you complaining that I don’t respect other opinions, but then in the next breath you attempt (inadequately) to rip my opinion to shreds. Practice what ya prech my friend.

2. I was in favor of trading AJ, and still would be for the right deal. See above—I already stated as much. So was the revered GM of the Braves. Ronnie wants to make it out like JS wasn’t the one wanting to trade AJ, but I provided a post from your own beloved David Obrien that said Schureholz was seeking out a trade with the Sox involving AJ in 2004 as well as a trade with the Yanks for Kevn Brown last year. Face facts boys.

Godbless, Carroll.

By BB FAN

October 27, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

Carroll, 1st, why the hell the GodBlesses all of a sudden? And how the hell can you say that a team (Bills) that went to the superbowl four years is as bad as a team (Falcons) that did not make the playoffs and finished under .500? That does not make any sense. The same for the Royals of the last 15 years. I would bet every dollar I earn for the rest of my life that almost every player, coach and front office person of the Royals would prefer the team to do what the Braves have done the last 15 years. There is no question. If you truly believe that what the Braves have done the last 15 years is as bad as what the Royals have done in the same time period then you do not know sports. I’m not trying to be rude here, but your assessment of the Braves organization being as bad as the Royals or D-Rays over the last 15 years is absurd. Any team in baseball, except the Yankees, would trade places with the Braves in a second. If the Yankees ever lose Steinbrenner then they would too. That’s because the Braves build winning teams, the Yankees buy them.

And Hudson’s 14-9, 3.52 season is pretty damn good for a # 2 starter. Buehrle was only 16-8, 3.12, not a big difference. Last season, Buerhle was 16-10, 3.89. Hudson and Buehrle are on the same level. And I watched Hudson all season. Yes he had good games and bad games…but that is baseball.

And the Braves do not do the same thing year after year. In fact they have al of roster changes every year. Your claim that Cox wastes all of his teams’ talent is ridiculous. He did not throw the hanging slider to Lehritz and he did not stop running the bases, therefore did not score on a play that my grandmother could have scored on! He is not the one that stops hitting or pitching in the playoffs. It’s the damn players. When was Bobby’s last at bat? 1969 for the Yankees. Get off the idea that everything is Cox’s fault.

If you and Letwan really hate what the Braves are doing then go root for the Yankees. Wait, they have not won it in the last 5 years. OK Boston…oh wait, they did not win this year. I got it. You guys must love the White Sox. They won the WS this year.

By david

October 27, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

Carroll you DID NOT provide a post from DOB stating what you claim,you provided a post from DOB that speculated that JS was talking to other teams it could have been talk about AJ or not?You also provided a quote from JS that says it’s not newspaper talk that there are real discussions going on WHAT A SHOCK,that’s what GM’s do,You ignore the proven fact that the Braves have not since 91 given or accepted a player with a no trade clause like Kevin Brown had in his contract.The fact remains you can not provide documentation or a quote from JS that HE says that he is considering a trade of AJ,because he will not comment on specifics of trade discussions.I myself am not opposed to discussing an AJ trade if it improves the Braves(though I think it would be hard to get equal value)you never know.I’m sure JS would listen to any offer for any player if it improves the Braves.But you do not know the specifics of any trade that was or was not discussed,all you pass on is speculation from third parties and then you state it as fact.The point being JS and Kenny Williams or Brian Cashman and their respective parties ARE the ONLY ones who were involved in those discussions.You state your thoughts on that particular subject as if you were in the room and clearly you were not involved.If you want to shout it from the mountaintops that the Braves should trade AJ,fire JS&BC get rid if CJ,that’s fine you are certainly entitled to your opinion.The truth remains though that you have no idea whatsoever the depth of the discussions that the Braves have with various teams throughout MLB.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

Charles, Charles, Charles, do I know you? “People like … Letwan ‘revel in disagreeing’?”

Disagreeing with who? You?

I just post my opinion like you - except I recognize it is only that - one man’s humble opinion.

Some folks have a different read on things than LeTwan. That’s okay - or should be - yet you suggest LeTwan is a “Self-centered fool” for his opinion.

You attack Carroll(who has strong feelings for the team), and call him names. Not very nice.

I see Carroll trying to be a better man with his “GodBless” -and you kinda made fun of that in your last post. You even called his posts “simple-minded” and “idiotic”. Your momma wouldn’t be proud of you for that.

LeTwan’s momma taught him not to call names. I may get your goat but I don’t call you no bad names. Have a Nice Day!

LeTwan

p.s. There’s some great Braves pajamas on the internet, with the feet sewed in. A real, true fan should have some.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

What else do I have to go on besides what the papers report? COnsidering I don’t have the capability of talking to JS myself. The direct quote from the paper specifically in reference to the AJ to the sox rumor quoted JS as saying that it was not just speculation. My point is that how can I be wrong for saying trade AJ when JS was obviously considering it himself. And now you seem to agree with my sentiment that if the right deal came along we should do it. Nothing wrong with that! It doesn’t mean that you or I don’t know what we’re talking about. Nuff said.

As far as the no-trade clause, JS has said when he was trying to get A-Fraud that although they typically don’t give them, a no-trade clause would NOT keep the Braves from getting a player they really wanted.

BB: I feel blessed in my life, and I want everyone else to be blessed too! So…

Godbless all, Carroll.

By Curveball

October 27, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Ron Roberts is exactly correct in his speculations—the Braves do not stand pat and do the same thing year in and year out—Booger Cox finds a different way to make his early postseason exit each year!…

By OUTLAWED

October 27, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

The Braves are going to win the World Series in 2006 no question about it. Anybody disagree? and why? Who would have thought that the White Sox win it this year? Nobody did. I really believe the Braves are going to win it in 06. No one else believes that, or is there anybody with me on this one? You can criticize all you want, voice your opininon all you want the fact is Bobby Cox is the manager until he decides it is time to leave. Reality is a crutch for people who can’t cope with drugs folks! Lets get behind our beloved Braves and support them to the Big Dance, this time we are going all the way WHY NOT? WISDOM IS KNOWING WHAT TO DO NEXT SKILL IS KNOWING HOW TO DO IT AND VIRTUE IS DOING IT I love my Braves.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

BBFan, c’mon man, LeTwan doesn’t want to root for the Yankees. You attack Carroll, then you come after LeTwan. What’s this “you and LeTwan” crap?

Just be glad Booger is gone.

Now, your momma probably wouldn’t like you saying “what the h* with the ‘GodBless” to Carroll. Does your momma know you’re on the computer?

david: You made some good points. You never know what another team might give you for a talent like Andruw. Remember what the Vikings gave Dallas for Herschel?

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

LetWan thinks LetWan should shutup and stop calling himself “LetWan” because that name sounds like something you find on the floor of a public bathroom.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

OUTLAWED: I think they can win. They need some adjustments, sure, but I think they can win every year.

It’s not fair to say they didn’t play with emotion - because they did in the regular season. The rookies brought that. Not Mondesi. What happened that last week, though - and then in the playoffs? They went flat. Not everyone played hard and played to win.

Smoltz once needed a sports psychologist to get his focus. Maybe the entire team needs to lay on the couch and get some help on how to win in the playoffs.

LeTwan’s gotta go make some money. Check you later.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

To the LeTwan impersonator: LeTwan Anthony was my daddy’s name - and his daddy’s name. If you can’t pronounce it, spell it, or appreciate it, LeTwan understands - I’ve read some of your other posts.

By Tim

October 27, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

The Braves once again failed in the post-season. But to fail in the post-season means you have to be in the post-season. That means you usually have to win more games than you lose over the course of a 162-game season.

As a sports fan, I would never, ever, ever want to give up watching meaningful Braves games in September and October to focus on preseason football, as I did for many summers from 1970 - 1990.

As for it being too easy to be a Bobby Cox player, Braves fans watched the Mets and Phillies implode annually under the guidance of Valentine and Bowa. I’ll take Bobby’s approach anytime.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

Again, Tim, Valentine has been in and won a WS game more recently than Cox and just won the Japanese WS.

Outlawed: be careful thinking the Braves can win the WS. According to some, that makes you not a real fan and means you have too high expectations.

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

No, Carroll, OUTLAWED sees what this year’s team has the POTENTIAL to be, with upgrades.

Most of us do.

Most of us see what this team did, this season, with EIGHTEEN rookies, a hobbled rotation, a pitiful bullpen, and are frankly AMAZED the Braves were even IN the postseason to begin with.

Some of us (along with MLB players, coaches, managers, GMs, beat writers, etc.) think Bobby Cox did his best job yet, this past season.

SOME others want to put on the blinders and ignore the regular season miracle and focus on the playoffs. Okay, forgive me if I’m wrong, but if it’s a MIRACLE that an undermanned team even got to the playoffs, wouldn’t that same undermanned team being in the playoffs and succeeding being even MORE highly unlikely? I’d think so. Something about “level of competition being tougher,” or something like that.

By OUTLAWED

October 27, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

Carroll you are right to some people fans like me are not considered a real fan of the Braves. I couldn’t agree with you more on Bobby. He is not the best post season manager in the world Carroll but he is our manager we have him and we will support him. Agree? To LeTwan don’t worry about some idiot is making fun of your family name who ever he/she has no class. God bless all of you fans in this site. God bless the Braves.

By BB FAN

October 27, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

Carroll, My biggest issue with what you say is that you think the Braves’ post season failures the last 15 years puts them in the same catagory as the Royals of the last 15 years. Every player, coach and front office person of the Royals (or any team, but the Yankees) would prefer the team to do what the Braves have done the last 15 years. There is no question in anybody’s mind but yours. If you truly believe that then you do not know sports. Again, I’m not trying to be rude, but your assessment of the Braves organization is absurd.

I also disagree with you faulting Cox and JS for the post season failures Neither of them threw the hanging slider to Lehritz in the 96 WS. Nor did either of them stop running the bases in the 91 WS. They are not the ones that stop hitting or pitching in the playoffs either. It’s the players.

JS has tried different players. Each year, the roster has numerous additions and subtractions.

And if you feel so blessed then why do you b!cth and moan so much about the Braves, Cox and JS?

By BB FAN

October 27, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

Letwan, there was no attacking going on, but you seem to agree with everything that Carroll says, so I figured you might want to root for a “winner”. The Braves Eastern Division title from a team of rookies and injured pitchers is not good enough. The Braves have been picked to finish below the Marlins and Phillies the last few seasons. But that is not good enough. Don’t get me wrong, I wish the Braves had 2 or 3 more WS titles too. But I realize that not every team can win the WS every year. And for the last 5, 6 years, there have been better teams than the Braves. FOr the other years (‘91, ‘96, ‘97, ‘98), the Braves players just did not execute when needed.

The White Sox are the most recent WS winner. You and Carroll want be happy rooting for a “winner” right?

By Ceepster

October 27, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this

David, just read your Oct. 25 column. Thanks! This was a remarkable year for the Braves. I think the best thing about it is that we know these kids can play at the major league level. It was great getting the 14th division title, disappointing that it didn’t go further but the future looks bright. I hope we will continue to be spoiled!

By BB FAN

October 27, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

The Braves players not executing when needed in ‘91, ‘96, ‘97, ‘98 is how baseball is. Some teams win, some don’t. There is always a reason for it. That is baseball!

By OUTLAWED

October 27, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

First I am a fan of the Braves and second I am a fan of Baseball. No I would not care who won or who lost the World Series of 2006. All I want to see is another thrill ride from the Braves to the Big Dance and win it all before I die. WHEN YOU CAN THINK OF YESTERDAY WITHOUT A REGRET AND OF TOMORROW WITHOUT A FEAR, YOU ARE ON THE ROAD TO SUCCESS. GO YOU YOUNG GUNS WIN US A WORLD SERIES IN 2006!

By Tomahawkin

October 27, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

BB Fan, Did you see how p** off Phil Garner was after the Stros went out like they did. I’d bet if Bobby used that same attitude in the the playoffs, instead of his usual “the boys played great but we came up short attitude” we’d have at least three rings during this run. I think he needs to start lighting a fire under their a-s-ses when they don’t cut it (especially the BLOW-Pen) then maybe we can get back that respect from the league that we used to have

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

BB Fan, there you go again with that “you and Carroll” business. It’s good to know you weren’t really attacking LeTwan. Maybe you got it out of your system by attacking Carroll.

You are right that LeTwan would like to root for a winner - and he’s been able to do that since 1991. LeTwan is a loyal Braves fan but he sees areas for improvement. If you’ve been around for the past few weeks you know that LeTwan was pulling for the NL entry in this year’s WS. In fact, I pulled for the Astros in the NLCS, too - ever since they dusted the Braves in first round.

The ideal Braves team to me would be one that can score a run when needed without having to wait for the HR. I used to watch Walter Alston teams come in here and wear out the Braves with that ability. A lot of NL teams used to be built that way. Sure would have come in handy in that 18-inning game, huh?

Guess it’s coincidental that Carroll and I agree on some things. Certainly not all things. I’ve disagreed with Carroll in posts but, unlike you, I can find agreement with him, too. He is certainly a fan - that is clear. Of course, he won’t ever qualify as the “truest and bestest ever” Braves fan like some others.

When you say the Braves have been picked to finish below the Marlins and Phillies … who’s pickin’? Oh, never mind - we don’t want to go there.

OUTLAWED: You put it in perspective. It sure is fun getting there - and wouldn’t it be great to win it again?

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

Did Bob Dole suddently ‘possess’ LeTwan and start making him speak in first person?

Tomahawkin’… I couldn’t HELP but hear MANY sports pundits, on ESPN radio, TV et al, RANT about Phil Garner’s comments. How do you think the players took such biting commentary?

I think it has a reverse effect on the psyche of that team, frankly. Who’d wanna ‘run through a wall’ for a coach that throws them under a bus? That’s why Bobby Cox (and most other managers, frankly) don’t publicly say “our players let us down.” I mean, there was another team on the field. Do they not deserve some credit for out-playing the Astros, instead of the ‘Stros manager harping on their shortcomings?

Memo to Phil: Your team just played in the World Series for the first time ever. That means they were better than every team in baseball, except for one. How about a break, man?

Now, see who ‘runs through a wall’ for you.

By BB FAN

October 27, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

Another blogger (doc) and I touched upon the whole emotion thing and lighting a fire under them. I think it can be detrimental to a team if there is too much emotion, but some is needed. I also feel that it is the responsibility of the team leader to light the fire. (Justice was great at that) The current Braves leaders just aren’t that way. Smoltz, Jones and Jones are good team leaders but just not in the same way Justice was. He was not afraid to speak his mind.

Letwan, I was not attacking anybody. I just disagree with Carroll about how he views the Braves in the same catagory as the Royals the last 15 years. That is absurd! I also disagree about getting rid of Cox and JS. They are a great manager and GM. Best in baseball. The Braves have a chance to win every year. It is not Cox and JS failing in the post season…it’s the players. It just sounds like you guys are b!itching and moaning about the two of them in every blog.

And when I say the Braves were expected to finish behind the Phillies and Marlins the last few years, I am talking by the sports writers, etc. Many had the Braves behind the Marlins and Phillies in each of the last 2 pre-seasons.

By BB FAN

October 27, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

I think the numerous current and former players, other managers and other GMs that say Cox and JS are the best in baseball know a little more than a certain few bloggers here. JS and Cox are not the problem.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

Hey, Ron Roberts (full name, FIRST and LAST), LeTWan is impressed that you know ex-Senator Robert Dole speaks in third person a lot. I kinda had you figured as a guy who wouldn’t know that. Did you know he ran for President? Quick, who is your Congressman and your Senator?

Good work on cuttin’ down the use of CAPS in your posts. It’s good to see you making progress, too.

**Now, tell Ol’ LeTwan and everybody else how you figure that the Astros are the second best team in baseball when a whole bunch of teams won more games this year.

If it has anything to do with winning in the playoffs and advancing to the World Series Ol’ LeTwan is getting ready to say, “GOTCHA”.**

By david

October 27, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

Carroll,I’m not trying to run this in the ground,just a point though.On the trade talk,my point is that the White Sox GM could approach JS and say the Sox are interested in acquiring AJ last summer and offer Juan Uribe and a minor leaguer in return,while this offer would be laughable to JS and probably you also-the media would run a headline saying Braves-Sox involved in discussions for AJ and overeager fans will state that the Braves nearly traded AJ to the Sox when it may not be remotely true.The flip side is that JS could approach Walt Jocketty of the Cardinals and offer LaRoche and a AA pitcher for Pujols and the media speculation would include headlines that state Braves inquire about Pujols and once again the overeager fan will blog that if we just could have pulled off the trade for Pujols things would be different.My final point is that do you really think Cashman of the Yanks offered K.Brown to the Braves and asked for AJ in return with a straight face.While I think the Yanks may have gauged the Braves interest in Brown merely because he is a GA.native and yes they want to unload his contract.By your own admission if the Braves wouldn’t give A-Rod a no trade,they sure as hell aren’t going to do it for a 40+ pitcher with a long history of serious back problems.I don’t think that even you would trade AJ for Brown even for the sake of just making change?Yet you expect other basball fans such as yourself to believe that JS nearly traded AJ for Kevin “Freakin Brown. In your heart of hearts you can’t actually think that this was discussed do you?I welcome your thoughts on this.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

BB Fan, you make some good points. Let’s be friends. I have great respect for the Braves organization. Before JS got here the stadium was dirty and smelled bad.

When JS took over and I got to go to the second home game, I remember how great the field looked and how shocked I was when the ticket taker looked me in the eye, welcomed me to the ballpark, and said, “Have a good time.” Things had changed! The on-field product was pretty good, too.

Bobby is just a man. He ain’t perfect. He’s no saint - he’s a ballplayer that is fortunate enough to still be around the game. Yes, he has a top-notch reputation as a manager. That said, I hope he will find a few able coaches that are able to light a fire. Justice was a leader as a player - he could do that again as a coach.

Yes, I know some picked the Braves not to win the division. When I asked you, “who’s pickin?” that was an unkind reference to Bobby’s second worst habit. LeTwan is ashamed.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 05:10 PM | Link to this

LeTWan: HIGH FIVE, buddy!

And that thing earlier about “who’s picking”? OMG! Too much! But to answer your question, every commentator that I saw on ESPN before the season picked the Braves to win the div. based on the Hudsy and Kolb acquisition and SMoltz returning to the rotation. The ONLY one who didn’t was Steve Phillips who picked the Marlins to win the division, the Braves to win the Wildcard and the Braves to win the WS!!!!

Guess it’s not so “miraculous” after all according to your beloved “experts”. Yes there were injuries and we did a good job getting through them with the rooks an all but still…with that pitching, the vets, the experience, the pathetic competition in the division et al, theres no reason to have thought the Braves wouldn’t win. Besides, JS and BC helped put us in that situation by getting scabs like Mondesi, BJ, and Kolb in the first place.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 05:15 PM | Link to this

david: NO! What I said was that JS was perfectly willing to give A-Fraud the no-trade clause….but a little matter of about $100 million stood in the way of a deal..NOT a no-trade clause. JS even said (I heard this with my own two ears) that a no-trade clause WOULD NOT keep the Braves from getting a player they wanted.

By Ceepster

October 27, 2005 05:17 PM | Link to this

Garner’s comments/rants about his team really fired them up to win in the Series, huh? I’m thankful I’ve never seen that from Cox and so, I imagine, are his players. I was impressed by the White Sox in the postseason. Good pitching, solid defense and clutch hitting. I really liked that the guys didn’t swing for the fences when a base hit was just as good. Congratulations to Jermaine Dye.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 05:35 PM | Link to this

Too bad there was no place for Jermaine Dye in Atlanta. His first game, he hit one out and I remember thinking it will be fun to watch this kid. We got Tucker and Lockhart for him way back when? 1997? Feel good for him and for Ozzie. And yes, Ceepster, wasn’t that great the way they played for the winning run last night? Good BB.

LeTwan is in withdrawal. There’s no game to watch tonight.

By Joe Toppe

October 27, 2005 06:29 PM | Link to this

Tomahawkin’ I miss Greg Maddux because he was great. I also miss Justice and guys like that.

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 07:12 PM | Link to this

Hey LeTwan,

Cognressman: Rodney Alexander (R) La.

Senator(s): David Vitter (R) and Mary Landrieu (D)

NOTE: Each state gets TWO senators, LeTwan, not one.

Oh, and by virtue of the playoffs and World Series, yes I will say the Astros were the 2nd best team standing in the end.

I’ve never once claimed anybody else fit that role. LeTwans’ point, LeTwan?

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 07:20 PM | Link to this

As for Carroll’s discussion of preseason predictions…

I think the pundits had the NL East going to either Atlanta, Florida and a few for Philadelphia.

But let’s ALSO flash back to pre-season blogging, boys and girls, when myself and a handful of others openly (dared to) question the acquisition of Brian Jordan and Raul Mondesi, and we all wondered if there would be enough ‘pop’ in the lineup; we all wondered if Smoltz would last all season injury-free; we all wondered who this Kolb guy was and if he’d be able to shine in a pennant race; we had many more questions than answers.

Throw in the injuries to Hampton and Thomson, the Kollapse of Kolb, the loss of Brian Jordan for most of the year, the complete FAILURE that was Raul Mondesi (I’ll take credit…I called that action in FEBRUARY)… Cox did MORE than just ‘help’ the team get past these roadblocks.

Face it, if you’d been told that all those things would happen during the season, you’d have guessed we’d win 68-77 games, TOPS. Admit it.

The so-called experts in every facet… in MLB organizations, the media that covers ‘em, the players, the GMs, other managers, all marvel at what Bobby Cox did this season.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 07:55 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Ron Roberts, every state gets two but I thought if you could come up with one you’d be doin’ pretty good. Too bad you came up with Mary Landrieu - from all I’ve seen of her the past few weeks she is almost like having no senator.

Maybe you get some of your “fiestiness” from Mary. It certainly could explain all the CAPS. Jambalaya!

I think you get LeTwan’s point just fine. If not, maybe Carroll can explain it to you in his next post.

RR, if you are an evacuee LeTwan is feelin’ bad ‘bout messin’ with you. I think I’ll take one more shot and then LeTwan will leave you alone.

To use terminology with which you are familiar, LeTwan thinks you may have “run into a wall” when you was little. Lasting damage.

Your buddy, LeTwan Anthony.

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 08:14 PM | Link to this

Maybe that’s LeTWAN’S problem, LeTwan.

I said run THROUGH a wall…not INTO it.

Nice try, though.

Lagniappe

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 08:16 PM | Link to this

Yep, you did say “through”. I said into - head first. Think about it.

By david

October 27, 2005 08:31 PM | Link to this

Carroll,this is my last comment on the subject of trades or near trades-Do you seriously think that JS gave due consideration to trading AJ for Brown? I’m anxious to see your reply.I first thought you were a crackpot,then I moved off that to just a passionate fan who when the Braves lost had to blame something or someone and wanted the Braves to win so bad that “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”is acceptable.There are plenty of fans like that-they are entitled to their passion and opinions.I’m trying to get a read on your knowledge of the game.Your honest answer to the above question should shed some light in that area.On a scale of 1-10 with 1 being “no chance” and 10 being “absolute certainity”-please place a corresponding number for how close you think JS came to this transaction,and also if you don’t mind put a number out there for yourself if you were GM.One question only AJ for Kevin Brown?

By david

October 27, 2005 08:34 PM | Link to this

Carroll I forgot to say ,base your answer on the off-season between 2004 and 2005.Don’t factor AJ’s or Brown’s 2005 regular season into the mix.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 27, 2005 08:37 PM | Link to this

RR, haven’t heard back from you and now I gotta go. I feel bad messin’ with you -people been all over me today, too.

Falcons used to have a pretty good QB from Louisiana - Bobby Hebert. I liked him, so I like you, too.

LeTwan has left the buidling. Go Braves!

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 09:32 PM | Link to this

Ahh yes Bobby Hebert. One of my faves ever. I’ll never forget the “wildest of wildcards” back in 1995. An utterly, completely improbable victory over the unbeatable 49ers on Christmas eve. “run terrence, run!” Talk about miracles!

david: I appreciate what your trying to say, but I don’t really want to go round and round about this anymore. Bottom line: JS thought, at some level, abut trading Aj, which means it is not unreasonable for me to suggest trading him…especially when he was mired in the worst, longest slump of his underachieving career at the time. Of course he turned that around big time, and we are all glad for that. Now, if Ronnie will just let it go, we can stop wasting time on this pointless topic.

By david

October 27, 2005 09:44 PM | Link to this

Okay Carroll,I won’t push on the AJ trade stuff,but one last thing-I believe from some of your blogs that you ocassionally read prosportsdaily.com full of trade rumors-just happens to be one in headlines today”If Ramirez leaves Sox,Jones could be his replacement”-taken from the Boston Herald.If you read that headline you would think JS and Theo are involved in on-going discussions,then if you actually read the story-it kinda makes my earlier point about trade romors in print.I agree with you though it does make for interesting reading.

By Tomahawkin

October 27, 2005 10:03 PM | Link to this

You do have a point in about Garner getting onto guys in their first world series, but when annual playoff flops become the norm then I think something needs to be done( especially to guys like Reeksma, who has been garbage for the last two years)

Mr Toppe, Man I miss glavine as much as maddux, I got so used to watching him over the years, I could predict on how he was going to work a batter at any given time… I didn’t say it when he left, but I miss Sheff as well, after watching him at a game in St. Louis, I’d have to say that He’s one of the few that I’d pay money to see

By the way do any of you guys go to other teams stadiums to watch the braves?

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 10:07 PM | Link to this

David: I did read that and totally agree that it is a bogus story. Basically, they interviewed Big Pappi about the prsospects for the BoSox this year at the award ceremony last night, where he happened to be standing right next to AJ….soemone asked him about what if ramirez leaves…..he responded by saying that if he did, they need to get a good run producer to replace him…then he gestured toward AJ. There is absolutely nothing to that story.

By Ron Roberts

October 27, 2005 10:10 PM | Link to this

I’ve seen the Braves at Coors Field, MinuteMaid Park, RFK Stadium, and Arlington.

By david

October 27, 2005 10:12 PM | Link to this

I’ve seen the Braves play in Yankee Stadium,Fenway Park,Wrigley Field,PNC Park,SBC Park,Dodger Stadium and Safeco Field.All of them were great trips and fine cities to watch a ballgame.

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 10:16 PM | Link to this

But just for the record, I will say that there’s no way I would trade AJ for Brown (then or now). That would be a completely insane move. But I wouldn’t completely put it past JS to consider it in an effort to offload salary (knowing that KB would walk after this season and we wouldn’t have the remaining 3 years of AJ’s contract). Okay, That’s oficially my last comment about the topic :)

Godbless, Carroll.

By Tomahawkin

October 27, 2005 10:24 PM | Link to this

Dude In the regular season I find it just as good to watch the braves on the road than at home, if not better, it seems like half the people at the Ted don’t have a clue of whats going on inside the lines

By Carroll

October 27, 2005 10:29 PM | Link to this

Agreed….most of them are too busy contemplating and negotiating their next lay….or trying to look/act like a good dad in front of all the people to a kid who could give a s** about baseball…or discussing business….or they’re just labotomized zombies….basically anything but watching the game.

By david

October 27, 2005 10:36 PM | Link to this

Tomahawkin,I agree that sadly the game at Turner sometimes takes a backseat to the nonsense.Other cities seem more interested in the actual game.SBC in San Francisco has two great rules.1-no umbrellas at all,2-if you leave your seat to grab a beer or food,you can not return until play is completed for that half inning.They “hardcore” enforce it also.What a novel idea fans have to watch the game or at the very least they can’t obstruct other fans from watching the game.It’s great.

By Tomahawkin

October 27, 2005 10:37 PM | Link to this

Imaging what It would be like if the people who ran the Falcons P.A. and their entertainment directors, did the braves games as well, I don’t think you would see many people falling asleep at the games, also how is the Chop House Bar, I have not been to a game at the Ted since I Went over the Furcal Line (If You Know what I mean) Is it worth it, or do you just blow all of your money on overpriced beer?

By david

October 27, 2005 10:44 PM | Link to this

The beers at all MLB venues I have attended are good and cold but also overpriced.But they have us by the nuts,you can pay their prices or not drink.Seems like the first time I went to Wrigley in 96 Old Style beer was reasonably priced,but after you belt down a few you see why.

By burt

October 27, 2005 11:51 PM | Link to this

the white soxs won with a 61 million payroll. why, because ozzie plays the game the way it is supposed to be played.they hit, bunt, steal and play defense.every player that ozzie does all of these things. the braves plays long ball and defense. that is the difference.

By Curveball

October 28, 2005 12:31 AM | Link to this

burt, that is the difference between “Ozzieball” and “Boogerball!”

By Tomahawkin

October 28, 2005 12:42 AM | Link to this

Hmmm… I thought It was a 69 million Payroll, regardless, I hope You were paying Attention WhineBrenner, and Theo

By doug

October 28, 2005 03:20 AM | Link to this

the braves have the best management in baseball with schuerholtz,bobby, and , until now, leo. every year they take lemons and make lemonade. now leo left because he got tired of the payroll restrictions. john will leave next and bobby will retire. fans need to have a torchlight parade down to the lawn of the biggest local owner. maybe he will get the message.

By KneeJerk

October 28, 2005 07:47 AM | Link to this

Been to Dolphin stadium to see Braves since I moved from Macon to Palm Beach. Tacky, tacky, tacky. Down to the teal uniforms. They have cheerleaders for baseball. Marlins have horrible fans. 2 WS titles in 13 years of existence and they can’t draw flies. Oh, and when they announce the Braves starting lineups on the PA, they play “Dueling Banjos” in the background. You would hate the Marlins much more if you lived here.

By doc

October 28, 2005 08:19 AM | Link to this

perspective, it is really great to watch the braves organization work. guess what? only one team won it all. does that mean we cant be pleased or fulfilled especially if you like to watch really good baseball, after all that is the objective as much as anything? sometimes, you can play really well and still lose, just like in life whether it be in a sales pitch, building a business or doing an operation where the patient has complications. what this team did this year should be inspiring and what this organization has done over the past decade and a half, unimaginable, especially to an oldtimer like myself.

i am also glad after all the degradation of what was done we are now on the same page. we are braves fans united looking forward to a new season. we can watch and moan about free agent travels but it may not be as significant as one thinks as it looks like more and more teams are “arbitrarily” placing their budgets at 80 million, right where the braves are and where the teams were that won it all to get to the world series were except for the outlandish amount that went to clements. cubs may be up for sale so they cant spend billions to get fookie, we’ll see.

we can also look forward to seeing more of the baby braves, the magic of aj and see whether cj had recharged and gets his body in the shape it was before he got the big contract. to the sheff fan, who do you REALLY want to see in rt field, frenchie or some one going over the hill. for those not saying bobby isnt trying to inject something into the game open your eyes and ears. he watches their back with the umps like a hawk and yells insesantly to the point one blogger wants him to shut up. dont forget, for those really educated fans looking to the finer aspects of the game, though you wont be able to knock the rocking of the pitching coach you can still watch bobby pick his nose if that is all you see as you watch a game.

now, since we are all on the same page lets get to spring training and enjoy another miraculous run to no. 15. no other fan in baseball can make that claim and it relly gets to the others. probably the only thing that comes close were some of the yankee runs, of course and the alston/lasorda years with the dodgers. wake up and enjoy it while you can. perspective aint it great, funny, it appears it feels like a pill to some of you.

By Carroll

October 28, 2005 09:00 AM | Link to this

doug: lets do it! With or without BC and/or CJ and/or whomever else, I’m already ready already!

Tomahwakin: in re, the dueling banjos…..can you blame them? I mean…at the Ted, they started playing that ridiculous “yeeeehhaaaa!” fifteen million times per game. Then they play that stupid “thank gawd I’m a country boy.” And nothings worse than the lame-a* homerun music….or the song they play for Chipper (it should be required by law to be Mr. Jones and me).

I guess the thought is that there might actually be a handful of people in the country who don’t already think of the Atl and the south in general as being inbred redneck hicks….so the PA people are trying to take care of that for us. Thanks guys!

By Joe Roman

October 28, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this

Thanks Dave. I doubt your taste of reality will do much good for these pathological whiners. Let’s look at the prospects for Houston and Chicago (either Chicago team, really). Both will certainly lose key players due to free agency and age. The odds either will even compete next year are long. The Braves will be in the thick of it next year. You can take it to the bank. Sadly, it’s just as certain we’ll read the same incomparably stupid, negative crap on AJC blogs, hear it on talk radio and see it repeated by the bozos on ESPN and Fox.

By ATLien4Life

October 28, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

DOB, thanks. Thanks, really, for helping us to understand how we are viewed from another perspective. Fact is, we are passionate, and we do love our team, but we often can’t see the forest for the trees.

We lose the fact that at least 9 out of these 14 years we have not had the most talent-laden roster, and that we’ve made the postseason more because of heart and Bobby’s magic, plus our division’s weakness, than because we just beat everyone up.

I myself was ready to give up on them after this year, saying I was about done. Your blog has given me some fresh perspective, and has me looking forward to next year again.

By Carroll

October 28, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

Ya know this mentality of being satisifed with underachievement and wasted opporutnity and working harder to make excuses for shortcomings than tyring to fix them, it all reminds me of being a kid in elementary school. SOme students were relieved and satisfied to get ‘B’s…they’re not that bad, better than a “C”, parents certainly won’t punish you for a “B”….but no real thought about how to try harder next time to get an “A”. Then you had the Asian students who would cry if they got an “A-” on a test. These were the students who earned the “A’s” in the class.

When you have the kind of talent that the Braves have had, which is basically equal to all other playoff teams, give or take a little, it comes down to desire and will to be the best….the Braves don’t have that anymore. Finding reasons to justify and accept a “B” is what the Braves and a lot of fans do. Not saying anything’s wrong with that…a lot of “B” students go on to be very successful, I’m sure. But I would just like to see my Braves shooting for that “A”.

And everyone likes to say “oh but the injuries”…and “oh but the rookies” etc etc ad nauseum….SO WHAT?! The Chisox won with castoffs and never-weres like Podsednik, Crede, perzenski (who NOBODY wanted before the season, and even Ozzie was skeptical about him!). Even though we had injuries and had to replace them with rookies, are you gonna try and tell me that any of our rookies: Francy, Langy, KJ, McCann, etc were less talented or capable than Crede (a .230 hitter), or perxenski…what about Uribe or Taguchi? I didn’t think so. Nice story this year for the Braves (with all the injuries/rookies), but NO EXCUSE!

By KneeJerk

October 28, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

Podsednik is a never was? Good enough to be traded for Carlos Lee and fill a huge speed void for this team. Pierzynski’s problem has never been talent, but the fact that several teammates don’t like him. Taguchi must have been good in Japan. Carroll you could tell us that because you’ve been singing the praises of another castoff, Bobby Valentine, who won a Japanese WS. Besides, offensive players were not the big story in the ChiSox chase, it was the starting pitching. See the ALCS.

By OUTLAWED

October 28, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

The Braves are a good team with a good manager. Jones and Jones are here to stay wheter we like it or not. The babies are the future of this team. I am looking forward to the 2006 season. As always hoping that we will go to the World Series. Go Braves

By Carroll

October 28, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this

You miss my point. Yes those players are good. But are you gonna tell me that any of those players were better or more capable than our rookies based o their performances before this year and before the playoffs? Of corse not…That’s my point….Just because they’re “rookies” doesn’t mean they weren’t good enough to win….or that they put us at some kind of disadvantage. The problem was that they were lead by people (BC and CJ) who just didn’t have the heart, fire and desire to excel. YES they were good, but no desire to excel and be the best=another first round flop.

But podsednik was indeed a castoff, by the way….did you not hear the announcers constantly talking about how he had been released by seattle…didn’t do much with milwaukee…and he was traded as part of a package for Lee…in fact when I advocated trading for him last offseason, no one even knew who he was. And most people certainly never heard of Taguchi before this year. Your attempt to somehow link him to Valentine and his Japanese WS victory is weak and irrelevant. Perzenski had marginal talent and it certainly never was enough to outweigh his perceived bad attitude. But, Winners play above their capabilities when it matters most due to heart, fire and desire/will. (See, Scott Podsednik walkoff homer after hitting none in the regular year, for example. See Joe Crede, a .230 batter looking like Brooks Robinson in the playoffs, etc,etc).

By dannycardwell

October 28, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

you know, iv been hearing all the talk about pay roll restrictions all year on these blogs. what restrictions? 80 million dollar pay roll is tenth highest in baseball. if they pay more money all it does is give another excuse to jack up ticket prices again. the onlt reason the braves go no farther in the playoffs every year is the starting pitching only goes 6 innings a game keeping the bullpen worn out. white sox went all the way on 69 million payroll florida did it last time with 20 million less than that. the angels did it with a lot less. pitching and defense win championships every year. we had the defence but not the pitching 5 years in a row. all year i listened to every body on these blogs wanting to go out and spend money on big time outfielders. the 3 we have did just as well as any in baseball. houston and chicago were two of the worst hitting teams in baseball so why did they get to the top? wise money management from people that know without long distant starters and a good bull pen the rest dont matter. for years we watched saint louis and san fransisco with a starting line up all hitting over 300 and almost always watching somebody else play on tv in october. we have an over rated gm that has looked good for a lot of years with an open check book, thanks to turner. now he has to step up to the plate with 80 million, which is 20 million more than he really needs to advance in the play offs. we need a starting staff that can average 7-8 innings a game. 3 long relievers, and i believe 2 are already here, and a mind set that if one or more start to tire in mid season, sit them down a week or two for rest and bring up fresh arms. there are too many good young players in the minors that we should use the same 3 guys day after day until they cant perform in october. the future still looks good if our gm dont trade it away on ageing players again. im already looking forward to march.

By Booger

October 28, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

We forget that good hygiene plays an important part in health, and in healthy performance. In the playoffs, the performance of the Atlanta team was unhealthy. To wit:

How deep is the ocean, how high is the sky, when you’re in past your knuckle, you’re in pretty high.

Extracted and held on the finger for later, Bobby just pulled a sweet potat-er. The camera was on him but that’s not an issue, for in baseball, there’s no place for a tissue.

Booger

By LeTwan impersonator

October 28, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

Seeing that I’ve never posted here it would kind of be hard for you to have read my previous posts.

thanks though

LeTwan

By BB FAN

October 28, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

Carroll,

Scott Podsednik was not a nobody before this year. He had 70 stolen bases last year and 46 the year before for the Brewers. And he was not just PART of a package for Carlos Lee. Lee and Podsednik were the main guys. The Brewers threw a couple of guys in the deal.

Taguchi was a highly thought of veteren in Japan. Crede has been a prospect waiting to blossom for a couple of years now. The difference is that the White Sox had a lot more experience. Rookies very rarely just come up and do well. It normally takes a few seasons to get used to life in the big leagues. Most of them never play more than 120 games a year before making it to the majors. SO yes, the White Sox were a lot more capable than all of those rookies. Plus they have the best pitching in baseball. The fact that 18 rookies led the Braves to the playoffs is amazing. This combined with 3 of 5 starters and CJ missing good portions of the season due to injuries makes the season even more amazing. No other manager could have lead the Braves to the playoffs this year with the all of that and a lousy bullpen.

And your crap about B’s and A’s is just that, crap. Baseball teams fail when they should succeed and succeed when they should fail. It happens all the time. That is why baseball is so great. Even the Yankees $210 mill payroll could not by success. Baseball is reaching it’s goal of parity. The Yankee teams of 98, 99 and 00 are the last teams to buy the WS ring. Baseball is great.

By the way, you never did answer my question: This was in response to your “godbless” reasoning; if you are so blessed then why do you constantly b!tch and moan about everything?

By Joe Roman

October 28, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

It is clear that many of these naysayers have no understanding of the game of baseball. The most talented team is not guarenteed victory. The best pitching, the best hitting, the best farm system, the highest payroll or the best player resumes tell you nothing for certain. Neither Houston nor The White Sox had any of these things. Every game is a crapshoot. As someone pointed out earlier, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays played really good baseball at the end of the season. The Baltimore Orioles played fantastic baseball at the beginning of the season. People who crave simplicity in complicated things are always going to be disappointed. All their bitterness and point-by-point criticisms are just a waste of precious energy.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this

Coach, meant to get back on this but had to try to earn a living.

Discussing coaching alternatives, I named only “old guys” simply to counter your argument that “youth” is the answer. I have nothing against a young manager; if Bobby retired, I’d rather see a fresh face than a retread (especially Piniella - ugh!), as long as he was first and foremost a very good baseball man.

I remember Sheffield hiding behind the excuse that Bobby didn’t ‘fire the team up’, after his post-season collapses. Seems that a change of scenery and approach hasn’t made too much of a difference.

There is only so much you can do to win a baseball game; it’s not like football where you psyche yourself out to explode off the line with every bit of strength you have. Bad analogy, but you get the point. Despite the failures I think Bobby’s approach is right: you do the same things in the post-season that you did to make you successful in the regular season.

Lastly, regarding Laroche on the bases; I read that he had a terrible flu and could barely make it around. I don’t know if this is true; I’d like to think so because that WAS embarrassing, I admit.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

I think everyone writing here would like to see more than 1 WS Title during the Brave’s run (well, I’m sure there a handful of true ‘haters’ out there who would still find fault).

What strikes me is the attitude of the critics; it’s as though your annual salary depended on winning the WS. I’m frustrated and p__ssed off after each early departure, too, but I VERY much enjoy the near-certainty that I’ll be able to witness 6 months of quality, winning baseball, from an organization that at least has a clue as to how to do it, and a shot, at least, at more. I wouldn’t trade places with a Marlins fan for a minute. The journey is a big part of the fun, guys!

Okay, end of philosophy class…

By KneeJerk

October 28, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

Speaking of “fiery” competitors.. Andy Pettitte is one of the most calm guys in the game. I think he has a pretty good post season career going. Will “getting fired up” help you hit the perfect spot with a pitch? Help you stay back on a breaking ball? Help you make a diving stop or a perfect throw home? I could go on and on. Focus and concentration in big games (at least baseball) will get you further than a fiery leader. Football is different because it’s a game of physical aggression.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 28, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

MBATL, I like Bobby. Like Bisher says, “he’s the best ‘til October”. That’s when the goblins come out. If the Braves make a change (not likely) I would favor a young guy getting his first shot. I used Richt as an example. Ozzie’s another. Mora with the Falcons. They are producing results. True, it doesn’t alway work that way - but you’re set for a long time if it works like you hope.

This is a young team. Cox, Corrales, Dews, and company don’t seem to be a good fit for the kids. Sure, they have depth and experience but they are old and hobbled (all of them) and likely can’t reach the players like younger guys might.

I think Bobby can stay as long as he likes. He’s earned it. I hope that he is sharp enough to find some coaches with “Fire” - no, change that to read coaches who can instill a “Close the deal” mentality with the players.

LaRoche’s miscue is one of many. Andruw didn’t hustle down the line in the late innings. The FOX announcers kept saying Julio made no effort to stretch on the throw from right. Chipper has been coasting for awhile. His at-bats were sad. He just waved at a ball hit down the line. That business with the gal reporter was not cute - it was disrespectful of the team, coaches, players, and fans. It was an elimination game for —sakes.

The biggest thing that troubles me is that no one seemed to get mad when they lost. It’s like someone else said - a squandered opportunity. Like Garner or not - he didn’t like losing and all of us on this blog know it. So do his players. They can like him or not - they know he intends to win - and that not being able to get a bunt down in the playoffs is unacceptable. Losing makes him mad.

The opportunities have come for 14 seasons - but there is no guarantee for any player on this team that he will have another opportunity at a ring. Seems like everybody should let it all hang out in the playoffs. If the Braves are fortunate again next year to reach, and I am fortunate enough to be there rooting for them - I hope we will see focus and the determination to win. Heck, just get past the first round and give yourself a chance at a pennant.

By KneeJerk

October 28, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Head to head. Braves vs. Sox Sox have an advantage in SP, Bullpen, 1st base, LF, push at C and RF. I know McCann and Frenchy WILL be better, but not right now. I don’t think our talent is much better if at all against the Southsiders. HUGE advantage for them in the pitching department. Oh, and calling Podsednik a “nobody” or a castoff is foolish. yes, the Mariners let him go. Do we need to start a thread with players who were let go and made it big? Bobby Jenks, anybody? Podsenik would definitely start over Langerhans, who in my opinion is a good 4th outfielder for a contending team.

By KneeJerk

October 28, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

Pierziynski has “marginal” talent? Yeah, who could use a career .294 hitting catcher with good defense?

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

Coach, of course I generally disagree! To my recollection, the only players who didn’t PRAISE Cox have been Sheffield (an arrogant … well, whatever), Kenny Lofton (aame as above, IMO), and maybe a couple of pitchers who didn’t develop under Leo (Marquis, O. Perez, the crazy reliever now with the Marlins - can’t remember his name).

Not to say there wouldn’t be “chemistry” with another manager, but I think saying the young Braves don’t connect with Bobby is just stereotyping and not based on any reality. In fact I suspect many of the kids are better with a Dutch Uncle than a contemporary ‘pal’.

If Andrew didn’t run out a ground ball (and I do think I remember that play), or Franco had a mental slip on a play (I don’t recall that one… but won’t argue with you about it), I really doubt that a different mgr would have made a difference. These are mental lapses that ARE part of the game. I don’t think either of those guys “doesn’t care.” (Andrew DOES seem like a little bit of a head case, but I doubt that’s Bobby’s fault; I do remember Bobby pulling him from left field for lack of hustle a few years ago, so I don’t think “lax” is a fair term).

These things are forgotten if you win, magnified if you lose.

As to Chipper: I’m sure the Yanks didn’t expect A-Rod to hit .133 in the ALDS; but I don’t think you fire Torre for it, and I don’t think you dump A-Rod. Love him or hate him, the fact is that Chipper’s a career .300 hitter with good power and run production. His post-season numbers are similar, but not quite as good, against better than average pitching. All you can do is hope he has a good series. He didn’t; that’s baseball.

I guess I completely missed the ‘reporter’ issue. Sorry, can’t argue with you on that one and would actually like to hear about it!

And, as to getting mad about losing. To me, that criticism is very self-serving (and I mean no disrespect to you… I appreciate your opinions). YOU would feel better if Bobby punched a water cooler or criticized his players? To me, that’s class under pressure, sportsmanship (and yes, I will admit, a little too much experience with disappointment.)

Believe me, I live and breath the Braves and the Dawgs, and of course I do find myself in the strange position of defending failure (a very strong term for being consistently good but only occasionally the best). I look forward to seeing the Braves adjust the mix to get it right, but I just can’t support a regime change when we’re in the hunt every year.

By Curveball

October 28, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

If LaDouche was too sick to run or stand upright then the Braves grand imperial manager (Boogie Cox) shouldn’t have had him in the game!

By Ceepster

October 28, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

Hey MBATL, way to go! I second those sentiments.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Curveball, if Kirk Gibson was too lame to run then Tommy Lasorda should never have put him up to bat.

By Carroll

October 28, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

Hmmm..Giants let him go, twins let him go…I think they could use a good hitting and deffensive catcher…guess he wasn’t that for those teams one way or the other. And for the record, he’s a career .287 hitter and he hit .250 this season, and .270 last season. solid, but Not great by any stretch. But he stepped it up and played outstanding, SMART, fundamental ball in the playoffs while our guys were taking their feet off the bag too soon, not stretching to get outs, lollygagging around the bases, not reaching for foul pops certainly not hitting in the clutch, and so forth…exactly my point…not a great player, just wanted it more and tried harder.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pierza.01.shtml

BB: how much playoff expereince did: podsednik, taguchi, crede, rowand, uribe, buehrle, jenks, hermanson, etc have? About as much as our rookies I think. Bottom line—NOBODY thought the ChiSox would get in the playoffs, nobody thought they would win the division (even going into the last week of the season with a lead!!), nobody thought they’d beat the BoreSox, NOBODY thought they’d beat the Angels (especially after game 1), some people started to come around and think they could win the WS because NOBODY thought the Astros could do it!

See what I’m getting at here? All these teams had excuses they could’ve fallen back on…lack of playoff experience, injuries, etc etc etc…but in the end they didn’t need excuses.

BB: just the fact that I’m able to come on here and b*** and moan means I’m blessed. It’s kinda become a hobby, and I enjoy talking with all you guys…even Ronnie Roberts. I hope everyone else is as blessed in their lives.

Godbless all, Carroll.

By Carroll

October 28, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

MBATL: nice try but I think there’s a big difference in STARTING Laroche and leaving him in for 7-8 innings and bringing Gibby to bat w/ 2 out in the 9th for one last-gasp at-bat. The latter=worth the risk; the former=not worth the risk. Personally I think it’s all a bunch of bunk…just the latest in a long line of Boogie and his endless excuse-making to protect his players.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

Carroll, I thought it was a pretty good comeback (I’m real proud of myself) but I’ll admit it’s not exactly the same thing. I’m sure Curveball will come back with something strong. I don’t really know the circumstances of LaRoche’s health and that travesty on the basepaths, as I think I mentioned in my original comment about it. It WAS an ugly sight. I just doubt that Bobby told him, “hey kid, no need to hustle in this spot.” And if LaRoche is really unconcerned with hustling on the basepaths in the playoffs, then let’s find a new first baseman, not a new manager, cause NOBODY could cure that kind of stupidity.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 28, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

MBATL, you miss my point, I’m a better coach than writer. No doubt most everyone who plays for the Braves likes and respects Bobby Cox. No doubt.

I’m not advocating a kid coach or manager - just one who can make his way around without hobbling. They don’t need a pal - they need a leader that won’t let them lose focus.

Next season, Bobby can sit right there in the dugout and call the shots. Hopefully he’ll have a strong staff in place to instill some conviction in the players. I’m afraid the old farts are more for Bobby than for the players. Hangers-on.

I don’t know about that uncle stuff. Granddad, maybe?

If managers don’t make a difference why do they get fired when teams don’t win? Bobby sets the tone. He sets the standard. His standard has been cool, professional, business-like, and he’s won a lot of games.

Guys who throw tantrums are shown the door. That is, in the dugout tantrums.

Chipper is Chipper. He’s a talent. He’s a dummy. You get what you get. It’s been fun watching him - a lot more fun before he signed the last contract.

In the 17th inning the sideline fox said Chipper was giving her grief over missing her plane (due to the long game). The camera panned to Chipper and he has that horny look going and a big old grin on his face. I just thought, “you idiot, it’s an elimination game - you don’t seem to care as much as I do whether you win or lose.”

Mad may not be the word I should use - let’s try hurt. It should hurt a lot to lose like these guys lose after a long regular season of achievement and high hopes. I really didn’t see the hurt. That hurt can turn to anger and a determination not to let another one get away.

At any rate, what a ride for the kids! Can’t wait until next year to see how much they can improve. Only one thing, there are no guarantees that they’ll ever be back to the playoffs. Ever. Need to pick that ring up while it’s on the table.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

BTW, LaRoche did go 2/4 with a grand slam on the night.

By Carroll

October 28, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Ol’ coach: excellent post…”he had that horny look”…incredible!

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

Hey coach, you write just fine and I get your point. I guess it comes down to whether you accept at least GETTING to the post-season and then relying on your team to win once in a while (which I do), or whether you want to roll the dice and shake everything up, with confidence that you can still get there, and have a better chance to win. I’m really concerned that a major change (Bobby) is just as likely to mean mediocrity as improvement. But hey, that’s what blogs are for. Go Braves, and Go Dawgs!

By Carroll

October 28, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

Ol coach: and to that point about CJ, some would say “oh so what”…”no big deal”..”so he was talkin to a reporter…what’s the problem?” The same peeps who saw no problem with him gigling as were getting our asses whooped by the yanks in 99.

SUre it doesn’t seem like a BIG deal on the surface. But think about it for a minute…did you see any of this nonsense from the Astros, Yankees, Cards, Sox….NO! Teams that care about winning and their players would prolly tell the reporter to f*** off in extra innings of an elimination game. CJ just doesn’t care enough. He may say he does, he may even honestly think he does. But actions speak louder than words.

Godbless, Carroll.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 05:08 PM | Link to this

I’m really sorry I missed the Chipper shot; was probably blogging when it happened.

I don’t dislike Chipper, but it doesn’t really matter, as no one is going to take his contract right now. I do hope that when the contract runs out, the Braves won’t feel “civic obligation” to keep him.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 28, 2005 05:31 PM | Link to this

MBATL, getting there is the reason we play the first 162. We do fine there. How could anyone dispute the results?

It’s that accursed 5-game series that kills this group (oh yeah, the seven game series, too).

Could Bobby’s moves (or someone else’) make a difference in a 5-game series? Or is he really just getting there and “relying on your team to win once in awhile?”

It’s Bobby’s puzzle. He fits the pieces. I promise you I do not understand why he tries to put the round pieces in the square holes in the playoffs. Liebrandt, Reardon, Pendleton PH instead of Klesko, Glavine getting a 2nd start from loyalty, etc. etc.

But he is there. 14 times in a row.

I don’t think we’ll see a major change. I do hope we’ll see some of the granddaddies step back and let these young players come in contact with some stronger leaders.

One last thought: I used to make players run sprints, run the hill, give me thirty … if they didn’t stay focused and put forth their best effort. That, and a good discussion about pride and performance.

What, really, can Bobby or anyone else do to wake up a guy ( a union guy) making $15 million who is adored by every 8-year old child in Atlanta? Not much, really. You hope he’ll play the game hard when it counts the most.

As you put it, you’re relying on your team to win once in awhile.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 06:15 PM | Link to this

Yeah, coach, I guess that’s pretty much how I think it’s done; you GET your team to the post-season, and then rely on them to pitch, hit, and catch their way to the next level. It IS a crapshoot, seems to me. I don’t think the Astros and White Sox were the best teams in their leagues this year; I think the Cards and RED Sox were; but they didn’t get lucky. (and, lest I be chastised, the W Sox DID play really well).

I assume you’re really a coach (that’s not just a “handle”, is it?). Tell me how I’m wrong, regarding baseball. What can Bobby do to make Smoltz throw harder, or AJ hit to right, etc. What did Torre, Larussa do wrong?

By KneeJerk

October 28, 2005 06:26 PM | Link to this

What does Bobby’s limping have to do with his managerial skills? Carroll, Pierzynski was .294 coming into this year. You may remember the Twins drafting a hometown boy #1 overall (Mauer)to play catcher. Pirzynski’s talent dictates he can start almost anywhere. It’s his attitude that keeps him moving. See Carl Everett.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 06:33 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Kneejerk. Bobby limps because he’s had both knees replaced… the product of a lifetime spent playing baseball!

By Ron Roberts

October 28, 2005 06:38 PM | Link to this

Thank GOD the only openings in the Braves’ franchise brain-trust is for a pitching coach.

If some of these “opinions” somehow seeped into the decision-making process, we’d be in serious trouble.

Some of ya’ll are hung up on name-calling (a guy gets nailed scratching his nose and he’s alluva sudden “Boogie?” - who among you’s never been caught digging, anyhow?) and pointing out minutae like Julio not stretching out enough in your humble opinions… LaRoche not running “hard enough” (despite his being sick, according to his coaches)…

If your fingernail’s bleeding, you don’t lop off your hand to fix it. What WORKS about this team doesn’t need fixing. The BULLPEN needs fixing. The BULLPEN is what made us inferior to Houston. Period.

GAME ONE: Our bats scored FIVE runs, but our bullpen gave up FIVE runs, too. What was the difference in that game? Hudson struggled, but didn’t IMPLODE. And he made up for it in game five. Yeah, B. Jordan in the lineup was a downer, as was J. Franco, but c’mon, the BULLPEN did more damage than those two moves.

GAME TWO: We won.

GAME THREE: Jorge Sosa gave up 3 runs; how many did our bullpen give up? FOUR

GAME FOUR: We were ahead by five before the BULLPEN came in. Remember what happened? Sure ya do.

What’s the common theme in our playoff shortcomings?

*THE BULLPEN *SUCKED! **

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 28, 2005 06:55 PM | Link to this

Bobby won’t make Smoltz throw harder but that’s not a problem, is it? Smoltz comes to play.

Instead of what someone did wrong, let’s think about what someone else does right. A winner has his players steeped in knowledge of how to win the game - how to advance a runner and manufacture a run, for instance. The Braves don’t have this down yet. Maybe next year.

If we subscribe to the theory that a manager can make a difference we might decide Bobby has been out-managed in the playoffs.

It’s all just rhetoric. I hope he wins Manager of the Year next year and comes home with at least a pennant if not a ring.

Would you ask me if I was a real Booger if that was my handle? Never mind, I may get him started again.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 07:03 PM | Link to this

Hey Carrol, I am taking the liberty of reposting one of your comments from earlier in this blog.

*October 28, 2005 09:00 AM | Link to this

I guess the thought is that there might actually be a handful of people in the country who don’t already think of the Atl and the south in general as being inbred redneck hicks….so the PA people are trying to take care of that for us. Thanks guys!*

Dude, it’s one thing to question a managerial move, or even an organizational philosophy. But I just want to remind the others on this site that you apparently hate the South, Atlanta, and the Braves… I’ve gotten sucked into responding to your crap without doing enough reading, but won’t again.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 28, 2005 07:05 PM | Link to this

Nothing against a handicap. Believe me, I know that the knees can go away. I just point out that the three elder staff members all have limited mobility and look and act like old men. That’s all. I’m sure they all are sharp minded. I’m sure they are all fine people.

Jack McKeon looks and acts like that. He’s won a WS since Bobby and his players don’t relate well to him at all. Just an observation.

That Roberts guy is back. I’m switching to another blog before Letwan tears him a new one.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 28, 2005 07:10 PM | Link to this

Oops, Roberts is over there, too. I’d rather read a book. G’night.

By Ron Roberts

October 28, 2005 07:20 PM | Link to this

Now who’s blogging with multiple handles?

Nice e-mail address “Ol’Coach”

swiss@cheese.org?

That’s manning up.

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 07:28 PM | Link to this

No coach, I asked only because you seemed to bring some unique perspective. No offense intended.

Yeah, this seems to be less than fun at this point. See you all on the next good topic.

By Carroll

October 28, 2005 07:46 PM | Link to this

MBATL: puh-leeze! If you can’t understand what I was saying in that post, and want to assume that I hate the south, I’m not even going to waste my time explaining it to you.

Godbless, Carroll.

By Ron Roberts

October 28, 2005 08:10 PM | Link to this

DOB began this blog to show the bashing naysayers locally how myopic they seem to be about the Braves, from the perspective of those who follow the game outside the ATL metro area.

And days later, you can see it didn’t seep into any cinder blocks, did it?

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 09:06 PM | Link to this

Carroll, if I misunderstood I (obviously) didn’t mean to. Went back and “speed read” the posts I had missed and maybe took something out of context. Thanks for your explanation. I’ll be a little more cautious in the future (yes, my tail is between my legs…)

By MBATL

October 28, 2005 09:25 PM | Link to this

…but I still disagree with you on the Braves. Your hardline approach to the postseason presumes that someone else is better at it, and I just don’t see that. Ozzie’s better in ‘05 but probably won’t even be there in ‘06…etc etc.

Anyway, hope we can clear up any problems and continue to disagree as gentlemen.

By BB FAN

October 28, 2005 09:54 PM | Link to this

Carroll, I was talking about major league experience, not playoff. And Pierzynski is an above average catcher. .287 or .294? They are both great for a catcher. And he does play good defense and has always been a hustler. I’d rather have him than Estrada. Though I think McCann will be the # 1 cather next season with Estrada being traded. McCann should be a very good player.

I did not think the White Sox would win the WS until they handled the Red Sox and Angels so easily. Although they did have great starting pitching all season long. And starting pitching seems to win WS rings.

That fact that any team can win the WS is what makes baseball so great. Yes, I would like to have the Braves with 2 or 3 more rings. But one is better than none. And MLB has reached their goal: there is parity in the game again. Like I said before, I was so sick of Steinbrenner buying WS rings in the late 90’s. That appears to be in the past. If 210 mill can’t buy him a ring, then baseball is great…again. Steinbrenner was starting to ruin the game for me, but it looks good. Even though there is no salary cap.

By david

October 28, 2005 10:54 PM | Link to this

Just for the record the White Sox payroll was 75 million and 13th in the league-Braves 80million and 10th in the league.This is not a dig at the Sox or excuse for the Braves,just clearing up the myth that there was a huge payroll disparity between the two.

By Curveball

October 29, 2005 02:28 AM | Link to this

The perspective outside of Atlanta given my limited myopic view and minutae baseball acumen is that “nobody really gives a god sh*t!”…and as the Red Sox used to cry out “Cowboy Up!” well it’s now time for the Braves to “Knuckle Up!” and “Boogie Down!”…

By KneeJerk

October 29, 2005 07:59 AM | Link to this

Another “scrap heap” player that was given away for absolutely nothing…David Ortiz.

By dannycardwell

October 29, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

beam me up scotty, theres no intelligent life down here.

By Carroll

October 29, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

you’re right kneejerk….much like podsednik, nobody expected Ortiz to have that kind of impact in Boston. But like curveball said, he and the BoreSox were able to “cowboy up” when it mattered the most in 2004. Then in 2005, he and they lost that will and desire that made them so special in ‘04….or at least they didn’t have as much of it as did the ChiSox.

By MBATL

October 29, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

Hey Carroll, I’m back. Want to apologize again for slamming you… it was out of line.

I agree with BB Fan about the ‘parity’ issue. I guess it does make it interesting for more teams, but makes it awfully hard to consistently win titles. Another team that pretty much bought a WS title was the first Marlins group…was that ‘97? Bonilla, Alou, Sheffild, K. Brown, Leiter, etc. Won the series, then I think lost 100 games the next year because they had to dump all the payroll. It’s a very dramatic example… but I’d rather see it done the way the Braves TRY to do it, so there is still a ‘next year’ to look forward to.

By Carroll

October 29, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

MBATL: no prob….we all go a li’l overboard sometimes….especially me ;)~

I wish we had real parity in the MLB. It’s what makes the NFL the greatest sport in the world. The beauty is that no matter how bad your team is, if there is real parity, you’re never more than 2 years away from a title.

By MBATL

October 29, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this

Seems like a salary cap is the answer. It’s absurd to think the Devil Rays could EVER compete with the Yankees. They develop some nice talent and then the Yanks will lop off the creme of the crop. I find the virtually unlimited spending (especially NYY) bloated and almost boring… how much skill does it take to build a division winner with a $200 m budget?

By Chuck Green

October 29, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Dave: You are right on the money with your analysis of the Braves this season. Cox did an outstanding job of getting the Braves to the post season, considering the available talent during the year. The only problem I have with Cox is that he gets too conservative during the playoffs and stays with pitchers that are obviously gassed. I would love to see a squease play during a tight game that would give a win. More steals were also in order as there is plenty of team speed. All in all the Braves did an outstanding job during the season and were peaking at the right time…too bad it didn’t carry into the post season.

By Marc

October 29, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

The Braves are good Chockers! When they hear the “ROCKET” is entering the Game on the Mound They run. It’s gut check time for the Braves! I understand 14 division Titles, ok, GREAT! You don’t tell yourself or your kids to settle, so why would you settle for 14 division titles? Bobby Cox is not the probably, our players have to get out there and swing those bats. Pitching for the most part are doing there job in giving the Braves a fair shot to Win, especially in that Houston series, what more can they do, Chipper and Andrew get the praise when everything goes well they should get it when it doesn’t, they have to be the fire starters with things are going down, which they didn’t in the last game against the “Rocket” they were stiking out grounding out, we can’t win if we don’t have a least one of our key players Starting the FIRE!

By BB FAN

October 29, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

Carroll, not every team can win every year. Now you are saying that the Red Sox did not play as hard this year. They did not “cowboy up”. The White Sox just beat them. They had great pitching. See, that is why I disagree with you so much. You think every team that loses did not “cowboy up”. That is not true. SOMEBODY HAS to lose every game!!! A team can play the perfect game and still lose. That is baseball. And that is why I give you such a hard time about your comments about the Braves. Don’t get me wrong, I think they should have won the WS in ‘91 and ‘96. And I have no idea how the Marlins beat the Braves in ‘97. The Marlins had a great team (they bought the WS), but the Braves were just as talented that year. And in the NLCS, the Braves out-played them but still lost. That is baseball.

Marc, The Braves did very well against the Clemens in game 2. They scored 5 runs in 5 innings against him. But in game 4, he picthed well for 3 innings in relief. That is baseball… sometimes a team has a pitcher’s number, sometimes it’s the other way around. That is why baseball is so great. The Braves scored planty of runs in the series. And they had good starting pitching. It was the bullpwn that lost the series for them. No doubt about it.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 29, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

Who really cares what they think outside Atlanta? We’re the ones who buy the tickets, pay to park, and buy the outrageous concessions. The team should please the Atlanta fans. The Ted is a great bb experience though I think it is becoming too much a circus with too little focus on the bb product. LeTwan would rather see the Tooner Field and big screen money spent on pitchers. Sure would have been nice to had someone out of the bullpen.

By BB FAN

October 29, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Letwan, I have to agree. Why the hell did they need that big screen anyway? The last time I went to Turner Field (I live in NY) was in 2002. The scoreboard they had was fine. If AOL/TW had put some money into the bullpen, the Braves would have been able to beat the Astros easily.

By ernie logman

October 29, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this

The Atlanta braves are a joke nationwide

The Braves and their fans can brag all they want about their 14 straight divisions titles, while the rest of the country laughs at them.

in the past 10 Seasons the Braves have won TEN (10) divisional titles, 2 NL pennants and ZERO (0) world series championships

In the same time frame the Florida Marlins have won ZERO (0) divisional titles, TWO (2) NL Pennants and TWO (2) world series championships

The Yankees have won NINE (9) division titles, SIX (6) AL pennants and FOUR (4) world series championships

The Braves don’t get it, divisional titles mean NOTHING unless you will the World Series.

By Marc

October 29, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

The Braves as well as the rest of the MLB, can really take lessons from little leagures. I see Braves players every game giving up on plays. What I mean by that, jogging to the bases, come on guys! I’ve seen a lot of close calls at first base were a runner could have potential beat the ball. If not beat it, running full speed could cause the thrower to rush a throw and cause a bad throw. We have not had a since of urgentcy since the 1991-96 Braves teams. That urgentcy is currently not there. The little things like that seem to win the World Series every year. Sure the Yankees had one of the best teams in the history of MLB, but they were to laid back. The husling teams roll right pass the passive teams! Right now as a whole the Braves are very Passive! They can clearly win, but turning off and on only works so long.

By Carroll

October 29, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

LeTwan: the thought is that if you add the circus stuff, more people will come, which equates to more money in the longrun to be able to get even more good players. Basically they spent money out of the operating budget (NOT the same funds that could have otherwise purchased players) and the return on that money will be used toward salary and payroll. We’ll see if it works.

I don’t care too much about outsiders opinions…that’s why Marc Bradleys comments about perspective outside the ATL rings a little hollow with me. But I just hate that freaking yeeeee-haw. That is NOT what the Atl really is all about. And they’re not the south Georgia Country Braves, they’re they ATL Braves.

By Marc

October 29, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

Ha, Your right Carroll NO YEE HAW Here! I thought ATL was a city!

By Carroll

October 29, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

By the way…i meant DOB’s article ….NOT marc bradley.

Marc, glad you agree. Atl is the biggest city in the southeast….not a country bumpkin backwoods hickville…not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s just NOT atl.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 29, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

MBATL, I like your thought on having a team for next year and the next. The Braves manage to do that pretty well. The ability to see something and trade for a guy like Sosa makes this organization special. I like the future. I would like to see all the players hustle, all the time. Marc’s observation about passive play is a good one.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 29, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

Carroll, I grew up in Atlanta. Can’t quite make myself call it “The ATL.” Did you ever have the opportunity to see a game at Ponce de Leon Park? Not sure about your age, that may not have been possible. The Crackers gave us the kind of baseball the Braves played through the 90’s. Sadly, at the end they were a Minnesota farm club and not a very good team. Jack McKeon was here. Did you know that?

By LeTwan Anthony

October 29, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

BB Fan, according to Carroll the money came out of a different pocket. LeTwan doesn’t know so much about that, he’d rather see some pitchers in the pen.

ernie: Atlanta had winners for years until the Braves arrived. From 1901 until 1965, the Crackers they talked about above won more league championships, or pennants, than any other team in organized baseball history except the New York Yankees. Makes it hard to accept a division championship as something special.

By Carroll

October 29, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

No…haven’t been around that long.

Looks like the Dawgs are pullin’ a Braves today……eveything that could possibly go wrong is; everything you expected to go in your favor goes the exact opposite; no emotion or fire. Just sorry.

By Curveball

October 29, 2005 05:27 PM | Link to this

LeTWan…I suppose the Braves should return all the cash they get from TV…ESPN, FOX, TBS, Turner South, all the satelite stations that carry the Braves, not to mention MLB.Com and that other crap…the Yankees YES networks brings $50 to $60 million dollars annually to their team…if you think a few warm overpriced beers, cold hot dogs, and a few faithful to the death butts will keep the Braves on the road then you are crazier than the Curveball!…

By LeTwan Anthony

October 29, 2005 06:10 PM | Link to this

LeTwan has no idea what you are talking about Curveball. Read my post again. I just said I’d rather see players than cartoon characters. Though, I will admit that one at third base is pretty entertaining.

By Curveball

October 29, 2005 06:58 PM | Link to this

The Curveball has been fouled off for the last time…myself and Bunt have left the park!…

By Carroll

October 29, 2005 08:16 PM | Link to this

I don’t know much about McDowell other than that he was a great pitcher… but I gotta say, I’m not hating it.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 29, 2005 08:28 PM | Link to this

Sinkerball pitcher. Who on the staff would benefit most from a new pitch?

By Carroll

October 29, 2005 08:38 PM | Link to this

Devine.

By william jackson

October 29, 2005 09:57 PM | Link to this

I live in LA, but grew up in GA. I have been a fan since a kld in 1966. I have to endure all the ridicule from friends & family about sticking with the Braves. I will always be a fan of all the Atl teams, but after this year I’ve had enough of the Braves: their insistence on patching holes instead of completely fixing them, their refusal to keep good African-American players, Cox’s inability to manufacture a run (I don’t think he knows what hit & run is) when needed to win a game, their satisfaction with having just enough to win the NL East, and the writers and fans who make excuses for them. Give me 3 or 4 WS crowns and keep your NL pennants. I would think the players & management would get tired of losing their last game every year.Every year we are 1 or 2 players away from having enough. One more good hitter and 1 more good bullpen pitcher would have been enough. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing each year, but expecting different results. It’s time to shake things up, starting with JS, BC & Chipper.

By MBATL

October 29, 2005 10:05 PM | Link to this

william: who are these people ridiculing you about “sticking with the Braves?” Dodger fans? Padres? Mets? Phillies, Red Sox?

I can only guess all your family are Yankee fans, cause no one else has ANY room to talk.

Just curious!

By BB FAN

October 29, 2005 10:33 PM | Link to this

ernie logman, in the last 10 years, there have been 25 teams that have not won the WS title. Not every team can win the damn WS every year. Baseball has parity in the game again. That is what was needed. Even the Yankees can’t buy the WS anymore. And that is great. Yes, I would like to have seen Atlanta win a few more , but the one in 1995 is better than none. And they always have a good team. FLorida bought the WS in 97. Then losty 100 games in 98 because they had to trade evrybody away. That is why they have no fan base. The Yankees were able to buy the 98, 99, and 00 titles, but not anymore. 210 mill did not do it.

william jackson, That is the problem with AOL/TW…they give JS a budget.

Carroll and Letwan, I know that the big screen comes from a different source than payroll, but I still do not see the need for it. What they had before was fine.

By Nelson

October 29, 2005 10:50 PM | Link to this

I loved the young 2005 Braves and the only thin I have to say is that we have the course of David Justice. Until we do not offer him a job in this organization we are not going to win in October. I have no other explanation of what is going on.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 01:02 AM | Link to this

to william: “Refusal to keep African-American players?” Huh? Please elaborate!

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 01:05 AM | Link to this

to william: “Give me 3 or 4 WS crowns and keep your NL pennants.”

Guess you’re a Yanks fan, because no one else has more than 1 in the last 15 years. Again, please elaborate.

Dude, I just think you’re spouting out BS. Come back with some detail.

By KneeJerk

October 30, 2005 06:23 AM | Link to this

William, I guess you’re not an Astros fan. We should have kept Jermaine Dye, yes. I liked the Justice trade for Lofton, who was one of the best, if not the best leadoff guy at the time. I felt Justice was overrated. Came in like a ball of fire in ‘90 when he replaced Murphy, but he had already reached his potential. He wasn’t going to get much better. Later traded for Ricky Ledee.

By KneeJerk

October 30, 2005 06:25 AM | Link to this

Paul Hewitt not actively recruiting white guys will make me no less of a fan of GT this year.

By Booger

October 30, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this

It may not be a curse after all. When you go in past your knuckle maybe you cause brain damage. Just a thought.

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

McDowell must be something special if the Bravos hired him w/o interviewing anybody else. What concerns me is that BC talked about what a competitor he is. Coming from BC that isn’t sayig a whole lot…unless he’s referring to booger diggin’ expeditions. Either way, I’m just glad they finally got someone with bullpen savvy….I think the starters are good enough to fin for themselves, if need be, but we need a bulldog to go in there and change the whole mentality, philosophy and makeup of our pen.

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this

And just one other thing about the Mazzone loss, the hiring of McDowell, etc. Some of us talk ad nauseum about the few constants over the years in all the Braves postseason futility. We all, myself included, refer to BC and CJ in this regard. Well, perhaps we neglected to mention that Leo has also been a constant. And quite frankly, as much as we complain about CJ’s laziness, lack of offense, BC’s poor decision-making, etc….the pitching has never really been stupendous in the playoffs (particularly the relief pitching). Who knows…..maybe this will make more of a difference than we all thought.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

I’m still reeling from Saturday football, but I have to say I like this hire. The guy should be able to help our young relievers. He’s young enough at 44 to relate just a little. You may be right, Carroll, about it making a difference. Interesting that Smoltz said losing Leo was no big deal.

By True Braves Fan

October 30, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

I realize that it may tax your feeble brains to comment on baseball, but don’t you think you have about worn out the juvenile booger thing? I know I am tired of it, and it takes up space where a sensible comment might be made by someone else.

By Ol' Coach form wayback

October 30, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this

No Boogers here. Let’s talk Baseball. Did you have a comment?

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

you’re holier than thou rant took up more space than boogers. Why not try to have fun instead of acting like the morality police.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

Coach, tough loss. I’m licking my wounds today too. “for the record” I predicted in the “can Joe T do it” blog that the Dawgs needed 17 points to win; but I thought we could score 17….

Anyway, McDowell; I can’t comment too much about him; I remember him as a pitcher; Sounds like he’s got a lively personality, which is maybe a good thing. I guess I do have confidence that if he was that high on the Braves list, it’s good to get the man you want and be done with it. It’ll be interesting to see (a) if there is any noticeable change in our pitching approach; and (b) whether it’ll help in the postseason (assuming we’re lucky enough to get there again).

By Salt

October 30, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

Speaking the truth in love, I see those who are obsessed with championships lacking in a true appreciation for the nuances of well-played baseball.

Those of us who do not obsess over the Ring (my precious) enjoy 162 games with the Braves, year-in and year-out.

And we have more fun.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this

Salt, that’s kinda like a NASCAR driver running 249 laps and parking the car.

Hopefully, you play 162 with the idea of having the opportunity to compete in the playoffs and win.

Don’t know if you’d call it an obsession, but I’d like to see the team advance beyone round one and give themselves a shot for the pennant. Then, they could have a shot at a ring.

Let’s see … there are 3 division champs and a wild card. The wild card dusted the Braves. Did the Braves finish 3rd or 4th in the NL this year? Doesn’t matter, does it?

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

Salt: if you have a “true appreciation for the nuances of the game” then you sure as hell don’t enjoy Braves playoff baseball, right?

162 games of well-played baseball is wasted if you play like crap in October.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Carroll, are you a Yankess fan? I know I saw a post where you said you were, but I have this bad habit of taking things out of context! Just curious as to whether you are primarily a Braves fan, a Yanks fan, or some other…

Not suggesting it affects your ‘standing’ to comment - of course it doesn’t - but just wondering… Thanks.

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

MBATL: I hate the yankees with the white-hot intensity of 1,000 burning suns.

The only thing I can think you might be reffering to is a couple of times I mentioned that I respected some of their players and the way they conduct themselves. IE-Derek Jeter after their playoff loss proclaiming that the season was a failure sice they didn’t move on rather than trying to spin it and focus on great regular year they had; IE-A Fraud admitting that he played like a dog in the playoffs rather than making excuses.

But I still despise them and dream of the day that my Braves might dethrone them in the WS and exercise those demons of 1996.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Yeah, well, like I said, I wasn’t making any accusations or anything. And I agree, they’ve got SOME top-notch players. I was just thinking in terms of the virtually unlimited payroll, and whether Yankee fans see it as a curse as much as a blessing… thanks.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

Carroll, to further my point: much as I want to see the Braves win it all, I can at least get excited for Ozzie, Jerry R. and the Chisox for building a champion. Will they repeat; will they even be back next year? I don’t know. But it is a great story and a great accomplishment. Don’t know the Yank fans could feel that way; it’s more like pressure than opportunity. The Braves have similar pressure though not because of their payroll, but just because of their history. Anyway, just an observation.

By Joe Roman

October 30, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this

I’ve been a Braves fan since the 70s, but since I live in Baltimore now, I can qualify this point as ‘perspective outside Atlanta’. Mcdowell is an excellent replacement for Leo. Some guys pitch with their legs. Others with their arms. McDowell, like Sutton pitched with his head. JS and Bobby made a great move. By the way, Leo is already doing an excellent job of educating Baltimore sports fans on the excellence of the Braves organization and the right approach to the game via talk radio. Not a bad word one from him about Atlanta. Pretty classy, I say.

By Salt

October 30, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

I have not enjoyed the last several playoffs with the Bravos precisely because they have not played good baseball consistently.

What to do about it? Damfino.

But I do know that whining, complaining, name- calling (“losers”,”failures”, etc.) getting angry and taking it all as a personal affront do no good at all.

Firing JC and/or BC or having a wholesale change of players does not guarantee even an underappreciated division title.

The Braves aren’t broken. They don’t park the car at lap 259. Something either happens to the car (and usually something different every year) or another car blows past them. The wisest thing to do is to re-tool, put together the best car you can with the parts and money you got and give it another try.

BTW, y’all say the same bull about Tiger, Jr. Ironhead, Dominique, Peyton, blah, blah, blah.

Consistent quality is mother’s milk.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

Hey Salt, I’m on board. It’s not a huge emotional attachment to BC, or certainly not to JS; but I do enjoy the regular season (unlike some of the championship-or-nothing advocates) and I just can’t get past the fact that you’ve got to GET there before you can win it.

If Carrol could show me a manager, or a set of personnel moves, that would guarantee getting there AND winning it all, I’d be all for that. I just think that blowing up the whole system is more likely to produce the Phillies of today than the Yanks of the ’90s.

Joe, thanks for the perspective; keep us posted on Leo’s activities in MD.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

Salt, if something happens to the car, let’s hope it isn’t due to lack of maintenance. Sometimes, you have to go into the pits and make some adjustments. I never suggested going behind the wall.

MBATL, It must sound like I’m defending Carroll, but I don’t think there are any guarantees. You venture and maybe you gain. You stand pat and you may get what you got before. If that’s enough, then okay.

It is clear that for many fans of this team the division is enough. The Braves are consistently good in the regular season. The wheels come off in the playoffs.

Is that like a surgeon who is consistently good in the classroom but flubs the operation?

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

Ol Coach: you hit it right on the head. That’s exactly (almost word-for-word) what I said to Ronnie Roberts the other day. And I’ve never advocted trashing the entire team and starting all over again. I’ve consistently said I wanted to see one major change…either CJ or BC. I think we’re good enough to compensate for the loss of either and possibly be better with the infusion of fresh faces and new attitudes. I would be willing to take the risk of possibly not making the playoffs (just to see the same ole garbage) for the potential reward of getting there and winning. You’re right that there are no guarantees in baseball, but 1/15 is about as close as you can get! WHy keep trying to unlock that door with the same key?

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

Coach, I’m completely lost on the car analogy, so I’m gonna “steer clear” of that (great pun, eh?).

Don’t know that I have too much new to add to this debate…but I don’t agree that many fans are satisfied with division championships. I’m not! I support BC not because I think he will give me divisions, but because I still think he gives me the best chance at the WS. Still have no idea who this ‘savior’ is that is so accomplished at winning in the post season.

Hey, I’m not gonna blow my brains out if the Braves make a change (which of course, they’re NOT…but one of these days JS and BC will retire). I could be proven wrong and maybe we’ll rip off 2 or 3 WS titles. Hope so! But if it works the other way, if we become just another team who not only never wins championships, but also suffers through mediocre regular seasons more often than not, and has no clue except to try to buy championships through free agency, and has no shot come October, I’m gonna hold you and Carroll personally responsible!

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

Carroll, I won’t make the same old arguments regarding Bobby…God knows we’ve beat that up but like I said to coach, I feel like I’m out of new ammo…

Regarding Chipper: in the REAL world, how do you make a change there? Do you think a contender might trade for his contract? I’m not agreeing that we SHOULD trade him, as I think when healthy he’s a very fine ballplayer. But that aside, do you think he COULD be unloaded?

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Well he’s said he wouldn’t oppose a trade in the past. And after what teams spent on the likes of Martinez, Beltran, Beltre, Sexon, Clemens, etc last season, there’s no reason to think that SOME team couldn’t afford CJ. One possibility, the Yanks have had discussions about trading Cano to the twins for Hunter. Then, maybe they could move Jeter to 2nd, A-Fraud to short and trade for Chipper to play 3rd. Again, not likely but not completely unrealistic that CJ could be moved.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 05:10 PM | Link to this

Interesting. I kind of doubt it; Chipper’s contract is bigger than any of the position guys you mention, I think. And he’s up there in years, and has had problems playing a full season. Pedro and Clemens…well, they’re proven pitchers and pretty much known commodities.

I am not on the blame-Chipper bandwagon, but I’d probably argue less about that than about Bobby. ‘specially considering the contract size. Frankly I’d move him or Smoltz just due to the financial burden and their age/health. And the Braves’ proven ability to replace departed players. Just doubt that it’s “doable.”

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this

MBATL, whoa! That’s quite a burden. The car analogy may not have registered, but I bet the surgeon did. To take a lead from another blogger, I’m not sure I want Bobby performing the operation - and it’s not because you don’t know where his fingers have been. Sorry, it was too easy. I won’t do that again.

Chipper might seem to be a perfect DH if you figure he gets hurt only in the field. Thinking back he got hurt in the field, on the bases, and in the box. With that contract we will likely see him back again. Which Chipper will we see?

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 05:25 PM | Link to this

I like you Coach, I don’t care what they say about you! I just lost track of the analogy…I’m sure it was effective. Where Bobby’s fingers have been? God, don’t even want to think about it!

Hey, I hope Chipper makes a “contract drive” and puts up some big numbers for a year or two, cause love him or hate him I think he’s gonna be here. You’re right, he’d be a great DH for someone, just REAL expensive (what is it, $17 mil?) and like I said, I wouldn’t mind at all, especially if we could get a speedy SS or OF prospect in exchange.

Frankly (and this is a whole NEW can of worms) I think we should move him to 1B.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 05:35 PM | Link to this

I personally believe that he played his best 3B in 2005. Having said that, Furcal makes plays that the 3rd baseman makes on other teams. Good to have that range and that arm playing next to Chipper. I think we all know that the famed “Chopper to Chipper” is never a problem. It’s a ball hit to his left or to his right that does him in.

Interesting thought - moving him to 1B. Wherever Bobby puts him, let’s hope he reports in great shape and can avoid the injuries that plagued him this year.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 05:45 PM | Link to this

I’m not saying he’s not a good 3B; he IS pretty good. I guess I’m disappointed in LaRoche. Not because of baserunning in Houston (still don’t know just WHAT to think about that (Carroll will say it’s Bobby’s fault!)) but he just seems to have reached a plateau. The swing is big and slow. I’d rather see Marte/Betemit given a shot a third, or Furcal, though I have a feeling he’s gone. LaRoche is young and shows promise, and not burdened with a big contract, so I’d like to see what we could get for him. He may turn out to be the next Mark Grace and I’ll be proven wrong, but I just don’t have a good feeling that he’s gonna take the next step.

Chipper would be a good fit at first; I’m sure he could field the position, and a switch hitter with good power… Just a thought…

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 05:48 PM | Link to this

Oh, and 1B is generally easier on the body…to your point that he keeps getting hurt in the field. The only good Chipper is a healthy Chipper.

By Tomahawkin

October 30, 2005 06:03 PM | Link to this

Knee Jerk, I spent my freshman year of college in S. Florida, and Marlins fans are horrible, They come out early in the year when ESPN Has them picked to win the division (remember how many fans were there when Smoltz got rocked on his first start). Then when the team slips they pull out their bandwagon Yankee gear out the closet, so if i were to break down the percentages of fans in S. Florida it would probably be 30% marlin fans 35% yankee fans, 25% braves fan (since they used to train in west palm) and 10% other (several red sox fans of the last 2 years). so fans in South Florida are pathetic….

BTW I’d rather see Sutton nominated for pitching coach but we will get the whole year to evaluate him

Go Braves!!!

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 06:07 PM | Link to this

I don’t know what happened with LaRoche on the bases, but I did read that he has adult ADD and it affects his focus/concentration. Some may misread his intensity. I like the swing. He produces pretty good power for a skinny young guy. Where does he fit if Chipper plays 1B?

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 06:17 PM | Link to this

MBATL & Ole Coach: if you think about it, actually playing 1st might be a little more physically demanding on CJ. At 3rd, he fields whatever is hit right to him (maybe 3-5 plays per game?) and throws easily to first. Contrarily, at firstbase, he’d be sprinting from his position to cover the bag prolly 15-25 times per game. That’s a lot of sprinting for the ole “tough out.”

Maybe we could ship him to the Dodgers for Gagne. That would be kinda even….they get a guy who’s questionable health-wise, as do we…contracts are about the same, we get the closer we so desperately need, they get the power 3rd baseman they long for. And after all, CJ always “dreamed” of playing for the Dodgers as a kid.

MBATL: I do kinda blame the laroche thing on BC simply because he tolerates that kind of laziness all year. Hell, the excuses he made for him afterward are proof positive of that. Oh, LAroch was too sick to run the bases but not too sick to play 6 or 7 innings and hit a grand slam. Puh-leeze!

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 06:19 PM | Link to this

Okay I just looked up the salaries and CJ makes a bit more than Gagne, but overall I think it’s somewhat a fathomable trade.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 06:33 PM | Link to this

I don’t know Gagne’s health status. He hardly pitched this year, did he? If you’re getting a healthy arm, it’s an interesting thought. Chipper’s health problems are not chronic… just one thing after another. So I wouldn’t trade him for another big contract unless they guy is certainly healthy. If the stars aligned, though, interesting.

I just ASSUME that LaRoche WAS sick, but able to play, and obviously able to swing the bat. Is that so unusual? I’m sure it happens all the time. And in the 7th inning (or 8th?) he didn’t have a lot left in the tank. So he looked like a slouch when he ran out of gas. I don’t know that this is the story, of course. But to me it’s more believable than that Bobby intentionally put a guy out there who he know was unable to perform, or that LaRoche just didn’t bother to try hard in the playoffs. Again, I really don’t know.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 06:39 PM | Link to this

Coach, if we moved CJ, LaRoche is either a lefthand bat off the bench and Chipper’s backup for another 2 years, or he’s trade bait, to get some speed and/or some young pitching.

I felt like you about him coming into this year. And he DID come up with a grand slam against Houston. I’m not completely down on him because he has shown potential and is pushing 20hr/80 rbi, I think. When he’s swinging well, he looks great, just seems like he’s in a funk a lot of the time. The ADD may be part of the problem.

So, it’s not like I’m on a “dump LaRoche” campaign. I do think moving CJ to 1B protects the investment and maybe opens the door for some other guys, but it’s just a thought.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 30, 2005 06:41 PM | Link to this

LeTwan sees y’all talking about moving Chipper to first. Well, that may be well and good but I remember Murph couldn’t play the position - and Murph was a smart man. After we see what they do with Furcal we’ll have a better idea of what can be done in the infield. One thing that makes our pitching so good is an infield without too many holes. LeTwan’s daddy said, “you can’t hide on a baseball field.” The Braves learned that when Chipper went to left.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 06:43 PM | Link to this

Regarding 1B vs. 3B: my impression is that you’re fielding a LOT less balls, just the righty v lefty thing; so you’re doing a lot less diving, jumping up and throwing. Not a big deal catch a throw from 2B standing on the bag.

I don’t know it as fact, but seems like 1B, not 3B has always been the “out to pasture” position for older guys who can still swing the bat.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 06:46 PM | Link to this

Marte and Betemit need to play. Maybe there’s another 3B behind them on the farm, maybe not. If one or both are moved and we stay with Chipper at 3B, then when the next injury hits we’ll end up with a DeRosa or worse. Too many infielders is a great problem to have. Let’s pray we keep the right ones.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 30, 2005 06:56 PM | Link to this

LeTwan thinks it is better to let the old guys go and keep those young infielders - all of them. Right now, this is a young team. If we go the route of moving youth for more Hollandsworth types then we have a big problem in 2-3 years.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 07:10 PM | Link to this

I hope to see the young Braves relievers pictured with their new pitching coach like that famous picture of the young guns with Leo. If McDowell can get their attention and give them some confidence (and maybe another pitch?) we may turn a weakness into a real strength for years to come.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 07:18 PM | Link to this

Hey Carroll, this is from the other blog… guess the topic was as out of place there as here: are you suggesting UGA should fire Richt?

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 07:25 PM | Link to this

Carroll would have fired General Lee.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 07:29 PM | Link to this

Then again, he did lose.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 07:31 PM | Link to this

That’s my point, coach, and I don’t want to hijack this topic…it’s supposed to be baseball (I think). This philosophy of throwing out successful coaches. There are a lot more Russ Nixon’s out there than there are Bobby Cox’s.

By LeTwan Anthony

October 30, 2005 07:39 PM | Link to this

LetWan thinks they should maybe give Marion Campbell a shot at Georgia.

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 07:40 PM | Link to this

LOL! Great point Ol Coach! And he lost in Brave-like fashion too….snatched defeat from the jaws of victory!

It’s just so unfair to compare Russ Nixon w/ the BC’s and Richts of the world. These guys have so much talent they are supposed to get it done! Nixon did not have talent besides dale murphy….nobody could’ve done significantly more with those teams! But give anyone the number of playoff opportunities and talent that BC has been given, and I’d bet the farm that they’d get at least twice as many rings as BC has gotten so far.

Similarly, Richt has had some of the greatest talent in the country and for 5 or 6 years now, it always the same result…blow it in the biggest game due to lack of emotion, preparedness, execution, poor decision making, etc. WHy keep trying the same thing when it’s obviously not working?

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 07:42 PM | Link to this

LeTwan: who dat? Bill’s brother?

By LeTwan Anthony

October 30, 2005 07:47 PM | Link to this

Marion Campbell is the old coach that wouldn’t go away. (No offense, Ol’ coach from wb.) Who is Bill Campbell?

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 07:50 PM | Link to this

only the most corrupt figure in the history of the Atl (former mayor). But I digress. I do remember Marion Campbell I think…didn’t he coach the falcoons…they fired him one year and then rehired him when no one else would take the job?

By LeTwan Anthony

October 30, 2005 07:57 PM | Link to this

Almost had him a third time when nobody wanted the job. Rankin’s buddy.

Good ownership turned that one around. Maybe the Braves can get a new owner some day.

Yea, I remember Bill. Don’t remind me.

By Ol' Coach from wayback

October 30, 2005 07:59 PM | Link to this

No offense taken, LeTwan. old coaches are recyclable.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 08:13 PM | Link to this

Hey, Carroll, I agree with you on something (Bill Campbell!). Russ Nixon was a name pulled out of the air; no particular insult meant to him…could’ve been any of the countless ML managers who couldn’t hold a candle to what we have now.

R.E. Lee did pretty good with what he had to work with…but Coach is right… you’d have fired him!

Richt has the greatest talent in the country? Did you see Auburn last year (FIVE first round picks, 2 RB in the top five picks?). Have you watched USC? They’ll do the same thing this year. Richt took a program that was floundering under Goff, then Donnan (another crook, btw), and has won more games than anyone in the SEC in the time he’s been there. GA high school football is probably about the 5th best talent pool in the country, behind CA, TX, FL and probably MI or PA. And we’ve got Auburn, FL, SC, TN, Clemson, and FSU coaches sitting in every kid’s living room during recruiting season.

Fire him? For Neuheisel??? Come on!

By Carroll

October 30, 2005 08:53 PM | Link to this

i said some of the best talent.

By MBATL

October 30, 2005 09:07 PM | Link to this

You did…I noticed that after the fact. GA SHOULD be a top 10 program, and thanks to MR it is, again. He’s a solid citizen running a good program; does NOT lose “all” the big games, as you suggest; doesn’t win them all either. Guess that’s why they’re big games.

By bravesfan36

October 31, 2005 02:38 AM | Link to this

I am disappointed as the rest of you at how the season ended. I will stand by the Braves no matter how they finish. Those of you who are constantly dissatisfied with the results and are calling for heads to fall with a first place team, don’t understand where we have been. It has been to long ago for you to remember or you are just too spoiled. It has been great every year to watch the Braves compete for the division title. I have enjoyed every season for the last 14 years. I understand that it is hard to take the losses during the playoffs lately. But you have to understand that there are alot of teams that do not have the priveledge to even be where the Braves are. There are alot of fans whose seasons have ended. Do you not enjoy the fact that your team has made it to the playoffs? I would like for them to win the World Series as much as anyone else. Don’t you think that is their objective? A manager can manage, but a player must hit, field, and pitch. Then you throw in a little luck and bad luck and you get the outcome. Cheer up Braves fans, this is not life and death, but our break from reality.

By BB FAN

October 31, 2005 08:35 AM | Link to this

Carroll, you just don’t get it. BC is not the reason the Braves have “only” one WS ring. He is the reason the Braves have been as successful over the last 15 years as they have been. He is the reason the Braves have a WS ring. The Indians were a much better team in ‘95. They had solid pitching and an awesome offense. The Braves beat them.

You claim that any other manager could have won 2 WS rings in the last 15 years? But that is just not so. Hell, even Torre has “only” 4 rings and he has had an umlimited payroll since ‘97. If Torre had the team that the Braves had, he would likely have the same number of rings that BC has.

Not every team can win the damn WS evry year. There are years where the Braves played better baseball than their opponent but lost. I’m not saying they have these last few years. But they have not played terrible. Last year, they had no starting pitching. The Astros took advantage of it. However, the series still went 5 games. This year, JS and BC improved the starting pitching, and if not for the bullpen they would have beat the Astros.

I doubt CJ will get traded. And I believe Gagne is a free agent this year anyway. The Braves need to re-sign Furcal (for less than 8.5 mill/year) and improve the bullpen. They need to get a closer like Gordon and 1 or 2 setup guys.

McDowell was a surprise. I never expected that. But I like it. He is a younger guy that may be able to add some life to the bullpen.

By Carroll

October 31, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

BB: I’m pretty sure the Dodgers just re-sgined Gagne last year to a long contract at $8 mill per. That means that if we could trade CJ for him str8 up, it would leave a signifigant amount of money to re-sign fooky. I’m just not certain about Gagne’s health status.

And, BB I do credit and respect BC and the Braves for their incredible run. But I just don’t think you can give credit and praise to BC for the 15 division titles and the one WS ring without also giving him the blame for the others. WHat’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

But frankly, as much as I complain about BC, I would LOVE to see what he could do with McDowell as pitching coach and with a Chipper-less team.

MBATL: I suppose I can accept that about Richt. Again, I don’t know nearly as much about NCAAF and the dawgs as the Braves. And he certainly hasnt had as many wasted chances as BC yet, so I’ll take your word for it. Hopefully he can get an SEC champ this year and a national champ in the future.

By Carroll

October 31, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this

BB: again, I’ve NEVER said that the Braves should win it every year. In fact, if you threw in one more ring, and a first-round victory every once in a while, I’d NEVER complain.

By BB FAN

October 31, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

Carroll, Ok at least we agree that what BC has done is great. And you just expect more than 1 WS ring. I would like to have won 1 more as well. In fact 1996 really made me mad because they were up 2 - 0 going back to Atlanta. But I have accepted the fact that Wohlers was the one who threw the hanging slider. Same thing in ‘91, it was Smith who screwed up on the bases. If not for those two major mistakes by players, the Braves would have 3 WS rings. Oh well.

Anyway, I’m not sure if LA signed him to a long term deal or not. I thought it was just a 1 year deal. Maybe he is arbitration eligible for 1 more year. I think if the Braves got a guy like Gordon and 1 or 2 quality set up guys, they would be OK. It should be an interesting off season though. I like the McDowell move.

By Carroll

October 31, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

I like Gordon as a setup man, but not as a closer. I just remember seeing him blow a lot of saves for the Yanks and Cubs in recent years. Maybe if Roger can teach Devine the art of the sinker, he will become a dominant closer.

As far as 91, it’s easy to blame Lonnie, but don’t forget that after he slipped up, we still had bases loaded, nobody out and got nothing out of it. And even after the Leyritz homer, we were still tied and had ample opportunities to manufacture some runs. Some things never change I guess.

By BB FAN

October 31, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

Hell, I would take Gordan as a set up man even. But I think he would stay w/ the Yankees unless he can close somewhere. Guillermo Mota is available as well. He was great in the set up role for LA before going to Florida. BJ Ryan is probably the best closer out there. Wagner is great but he wants 9 mill a year. I think Ryan would be closer to 5 mill. But who knows. Farnsworth would be fine too, as long as he did not get more than 5 mill a year. Devine likely will be our closer of the future. Maybe even next year. I think McDowell will help him a lot.

By Joe

October 31, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

Theres no way i would trade chipper for gagne. And yeah we need to resign furcal if that mean losing giles and letting betemit play second i dont know about that. Giles plays with heart all year long. He adds more than numbers. I would resign farnsworth and then trade some of our younger pitchers for a reliable set up man such as urbina or mota, but hopefully someone not in our division, just dont know other teams setup men as well as i do the east. Estrada will be cheep but is moveable, and if the right deal is there i would probably make it, he had one good year. His numbers this year weren’t great even before he got railed in Ana.

Getting rid of BC is probably a bad idea, but i would love to see what someone like Lou could do with the team. I just think players play well for Cox and changing that might be a bad idea. Talking about the Bills again, i’m a huge saints fan, and they lose every year but atleast teh braves give me hope. They get to the playoffs and stand a chance of winning. Losing in the playoffs is tougher than losing in teh regular season casue you have higher hopes thus a longer fall when you fail. Would i rather be the marlins (2/2) than the braves (1/14), i dont know. But i would rather be the braves than the padres. with each only having one.

Thats my 2 cents

By bravefan

October 31, 2005 07:00 PM | Link to this

Trust me carroll your knowledge of ncaa football is equivalent to your knowledge about the braves.

By MBATL

November 1, 2005 10:54 PM | Link to this

Carroll, Richt’s “off the table” to me, but that’s just my opinion.

You do know your baseball (and probably your NCAAF bettr than you admit); should the Braves pursue Furcal? Lou Piniella raved about him on the radio today… I’ve been an advocate of letting him go unless he discounts his price, but wonder what you think. I’m wavering a little on this one.

By Carroll

November 2, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this

MBATL: I say don’t pay premium price for anything but good, power pitching. I think the WS of the past several years have shown us that power pitching trumps all. It beats offenses as good as Sheff, CJ, JD Drew, A-Rod, Jeter, Vlad Guerrero, et al, and it compensates for offenses as weak as Jason Lane, Chris Burke, Willie Tavarez, Juan Uribe, Brad Ausmus, Adam Everett, etc.

All you need is power pitching and timely hitting. You can control whether or not you have the power pitching….you can’t control the timely hitting….you may have an offense as good as the Yanks or as bad as the 05 astros, and one is just as likely to get a timely playoff hit as the other. So load up the power pitching and hope that it only takes one or two timely hits (a la the ChiSox game 4).

That said, let fooky go and instead of paying him $9 mill per, trade for Juan Pierre to leadoff for less than half that amt.

By don gentry

November 3, 2005 07:11 PM | Link to this

Having been a Braves fan for a long time I can remember when late in the season that the Braves were out of it and not many showed up at the ball park. Not many cared. I was there the night that Pete Rose lost his hitting streak and complained that it seemed like the pitcher was pitching in the world series. That was the closest we came to the WS in those days. Go Braves.

By Don Rose

November 5, 2005 05:00 AM | Link to this

Excellent article. Could not agree more.

By MBATL

November 5, 2005 07:22 PM | Link to this

Hey don gentry: I was at that game too…really! My cousin from J’ville came into town and took us “kids” to a game. Yeah, in those days, that was about as good as it got for the Braves.

By Robert

November 8, 2005 05:46 AM | Link to this

Knowledgable baseball people would laugh if anyone suggested Booby Cox needs to be put out to pasture?

Cox IS a good babysitter - he keeps the team on an even keel thru the long regular season

But his strategic ability in any individual game is essentially nonexistant

I’d much rather see watch a team that maybe only makes the playoffs every so often, but that has a real chance when they do make the postseason than watch a team that wins an otherwise mediocre division year in year out but that is 1 for 14 in the playoffs despite having the absolute best team in baseball at least 6 of those years (and pretty close to it most of the rest), and hasnt shown up for the postseason in five years.

I’ve said it to friends and I’ll say it here now - The Braves have essentially zero chance of winning another WS as long Cox is their manager.

I am no Yankee fan, but that organization is a WINNER. Ask Yankee fans what they are proud of - their division titles, or their twenty-some CHAMPIOSHIPS

I refuse to join the crowd in consoling themseleves with meaningless division victories.

Mazzone is gone - Smoltzie, the last link to any remnant of Braves “glory” is pushing 40. I could care less if we can beat the Nationals, Larry Bowa, or the inept M

Fire Bobby Cox.

TODAY!