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Home > Mark Bradley > Archives > 2008 > December > 18 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USNo Raffy? Be happy!
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
You know the old saying: Sometimes the best deals are the ones you thought you’d made but didn’t make because somebody weaseled out at the end.
OK, so that’s not exactly how it goes. In this case it should. The Braves didn’t get Rafael Furcal, the little man with the iffy birth certificate, and Frank Wren is miffed. He should be happy. Furcal’s weirdo waffling stopped the Braves from making a dog’s breakfast - that’s a British expression for “a real mess” - of an already peculiar offseason.
Let’s not wonder overmuch about why Furcal did what he did (or didn’t do). Let’s note instead that the Braves, who already have a pretty fair shortstop, were about to lavish $30 million on one who’s five years older. Presumably this was preparatory to another trade - Yunel Escobar in a package for Jake Peavy - but I’m not ready to give up on Escobar. And I saw enough of Furcal on his first Atlanta tour to believe he hasn’t become what he should have.
He stole 40 bases and had an on-base percentage of .384 as a rookie. Not until 2005 - perhaps not coincidentally, his contract year - did he steal so many again. Not until 2008 - perhaps not coincidentally, another contract year, this one truncated by injury - did he reach base at a higher rate.
So here’s what Furcal is: A little man of 31 (or so we believe) who has had a bad back and who has made the All-Star team once (that in 2003). For all the questions about his temper and his attitude, there’s a chance Escobar will wind up being a better player than Furcal. Heck, he already has a higher career OBP.
I know many among you are getting antsy for something - anything! - to happen, but I would again advise patience. The feeling here is that Wren’s worst move to date wasn’t backing away from Peavy or missing on A.J. Burnett or being burned by Furcal’s caprice; the one I don’t understand was giving away Tyler Flowers for Javier Vazquez.
The Braves didn’t become a fourth-place team because one thing went wrong. They’re where they are because nearly everything fell apart. They’ll only get back to where they once were by building from the ground up. They shouldn’t get in the habit of swapping young for old. They shouldn’t be pursuing anyone who isn’t a big-time starting pitcher or a run-producing outfielder.
Last I checked, Furcal is neither.
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By ByteMe
December 18, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this
Yay! Sanity amidst the clothes rending and teeth gnashing.
By JC
December 18, 2008 8:43 AM | Link to this
I agree wholeheartedly. When I saw the headline yesterday I was relieved. I miss Renteria more than Furcal. What was Wren thinking?
By barr
December 18, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this
Mark I think you are right. Lets get back to the youth movement. Both the Smets and the Yankees have not won by chasing older players. However, look at Boston and Tampa Bay. They both have recieved great bost both in their rotation and in their lineup by pursing younger players both on the farm and through trade/free agency. Burnett, Peavy, etc are not worth the money. Enough talk about are they ready. Bring up Wren let ‘em play. Enough with Smoltz and Glavine thanks for all you’ve done but your better days are gone.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this
Not to mention the hand-wringing.
By OldeBrave
December 18, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this
Great! sarcasticly, but you are actually right this time Mark. Why bring back in old rubbish? Raffy may play 80 to 100 games this year? I keep hearing that he has a great calming nature in the clubhouse…if that is what we need, cant we get a couple of golden labs? Signing old vets just because thats what fans want does not win pennants, nor does giving away the farm system for a superstar.
By T-Bone
December 18, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
Well said, Mark! And I’m with you on Flowers. We got a #3 starter (at best) for a young (meaning cheap) power-hitting catcher? I think Frank was trigger-happy on that one.
You’re right (and so is Furman Bisher) that we’re giving up too much young talent. The Tex deal will come back to haunt us. Would we be over-spending on Raffy if we had Elvis Andrus? Would we panicking over pitching if we had Matt Harrison?
I’m not saying that we give up on 09, but let’s not sell the farm on deals that may not get us there. Maybe we aim at 2010. Huddy will be back, Hanson will be fully ready, and maybe there will be some free-agent pitchers available (and the Yankees will be bankrupt).
By oldmike
December 18, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this
I still think the Braves would be well served to go young. See what their A plus rated prospects can do in the majors. Lay the foundation for 2-3 years out. It worked once before. We still have a good core of position players, albeit a run producing outfielder short, but I’d love to see Hanson and any one of the other studs here next year. What does everyone think?
By country boy
December 18, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
Mr. Bradley - you are 100%. As I said in a previous blog .. if the Braves signed C. C. Sabathia they are still not a .500 team. Braves are more than just a player or two away and are more than just a year or two away. We need to stop this non-sense about sending our good young shortstop out for short term expensive pitching. In my humble opinion we need to give the young guys experience and take our lumps.
By Tsu Yuan Nieh
December 18, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
Renteria is worse than before in both defence and offence plus Braves indeed need a lead off man.
I like Vazquez trade because I think Tylor is too good of a player to be a back up of McCann.
However, I agree that I don’t feel too bad about Peavy, AJ or Furcal deals. We get to keep Yunel, Gorky and many possible players and Braves will have money to keep John Smoltz and Tim Hudson.
And yes, patience is very important in this case and I think the patience towards Jeff, Kelly, and Casey is very important and can turn out to be pretty good. Plus I do like Josh Anderson and I believe he was in a bad environment and antsy to do well but I think he did not do terribly. Plus Josh can really run.
Give the original Atlanta players a chance to play, not to be in such a hurry to sign big names. Besides, the FA market this winter is not that good, besides CC and Teixeira, all the rest of the FAs have their problems.
Keep the money and wait for next year when Brandon Webb to be FA, and sign him some sort of Satana deal to play for the Braves. 2010 is ours.
By Tsu Yuan Nieh
December 18, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this
Renteria is worse than before in both defence and offence plus Braves indeed need a lead off man.
I like Vazquez trade because I think Tylor is too good of a player to be a back up of McCann.
However, I agree that I don’t feel too bad about Peavy, AJ or Furcal deals. We get to keep Yunel, Gorky and many possible players and Braves will have money to keep John Smoltz and Tim Hudson.
And yes, patience is very important in this case and I think the patience towards Jeff, Kelly, and Casey is very important and can turn out to be pretty good. Plus I do like Josh Anderson and I believe he was in a bad environment and antsy to do well but I think he did not do terribly. Plus Josh can really run.
Give the original Atlanta players a chance to play, not to be in such a hurry to sign big names. Besides, the FA market this winter is not that good, besides CC and Teixeira, all the rest of the FAs have their problems.
Keep the money and wait for next year when Brandon Webb to be FA, and sign him some sort of Satana deal to play for the Braves. 2010 is ours.
By Ted Striker
December 18, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this
The Braves adding Furcal would have been as helpful as a new paint job on a car with a blown transmission.
By Arthur
December 18, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
Mr Bradley, I certainly agree with you. Escobar has a chance to mature and become a great shortstop. He has good range and a good bat.
Your logic is appreciated.
Arthur
By Smitty McBoozer
December 18, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this
As long as Cox and Chipper, two of the biggest icons in Atlanta sports history, are here; we can’t fully commit to a youth movement. We missed the boat on rebuilding when we let all of our players walk away for practically nothing. Just look at what Renteria got us, imagine what Andruw, Maddux, Glavine, etc…would have pulled. Flowers should have been moved for another prospect who was being block, like him.
By Sara
December 18, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
Yes, let’s watch as every good pitching option is signed by the Yankees. Let’s trade our high-end catching prospects for a mid-tier starter who hasn’t become what everyone believed he should have. Let’s not get a legit leadoff hitter, let’s not improve our defense, and let’s not sign the big bat, which we badly need. How about this. Wait until Smoltz is signed by a new team, and then trade Chipper and McCann to them so that I can support a new team!
By Interested fan
December 18, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
I just think Wren should learn from JS and say “no comment” until the deal, whatever it is, is done.
By beau vighn
December 18, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this
I do not understand what the problem is with Yunnel. He is a heck of a shortstop, a pretty darn good hitter and he has a little flair and passion to his game. Maybe this is why Cox seems not to like him and wants to trade him.
The Braves brass are a bunch of idiots from Wren to Cox. If you can play and have a little edge to you they want to trade you. They deserve to finish in last place.
By Raffy leaves you in debt; and in third place
December 18, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
Maybe if you’re the Yankees, you overpay for two pitchers who can get you over the hump. Overpaying for Furcal and Burnett doesn’t get you that. It just makes you slightly more competitive and hamstrung for the future.
The Braves don’t have money to buy a team anymore, so they need to build a team. Only then do you consider overpaying the one or two that get you over the hump.
And don’t worry, I’m sure Raffy will have a new birth certificate by then. He’ll be what, 23 years old? (With ten years’ experience to boot!)
By TURTSNAP
December 18, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
Good blog Mark. I agree with you. While reading this and reading your points of Furcal and his exceptional stats years being his contract years, it reminded me of another Braves shortstop that did that. Jeff Blauser, although I was a huge Blauser fan :O)
By LT-A blogger
December 18, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
Thanks JB- nice article that I agree 100% with. The Braves have some very good looking young players that need to be given the opportunity to develop this season.
SD wanted to much for Peavy. The Braves got used by Burnett and Furcal to get better deals from teams they wanted to play for. Not one of those players is would have made this team a contender.
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
December 18, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Furcal es un idiota.
Sign Smoltz now!
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
Speaking from a journalistic perspective, I’ll never complain about someone who doesn’t say, “No comment.”
By dap01
December 18, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
Good article, right prospective.
By Overlooked
December 18, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
While I think bringing back Furcal would have been a mistake, one thing is being overlooked…this is yet another example of Frank Wren not being able to sign a player this offseason. First it was Peavy, then Burnett, now Furcal…what’s the deal with that?
By Tami
December 18, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this
My only frustration with the one offseason move made vs. the ones not made was trading away Flowers for Vazquez. Flowers will make the ML club he’s on (forgot where he went) and come back to Atlanta and just kill us with his talent. Boy did that hurt!
I agree with Mark. We can wait a couple more seasons as long as the farm gets built back up again with new, VERY promising talent, which is sorely needed anyway. This probably means we will either lose Smoltz (one of my faves) to another team or retirement since he’s so desperate to get back to a World Series. But, you know..there are other great players that played their whole careers and never made it to the W.S. So, he should be happy that he’s got one ring. I know I am!
By Tron5000
December 18, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this
When the “Raffy to Braves” news starting coming down the pipe, I only thought it was a good idea if it resulted in Yunel or KJ being involved in a deal for Peavy. I think the world of both of them, but it’s not every day you get a chance to add a 27-year-old Cy Young candidate with a career 3.25 ERA who averages a K an inning. Dude’s had an ERA under 2.9 in 4 of the last 5 seasons.
I had Jake Peavy and Javier Vazquez on my fantasy team this year. I know the difference between the two. I watched a lot of their games. I like Vazquez’s ability to eat innings, but has a career ERA of 4.32 and averages 1 K/9 less than Peavy. He’s had an ERA above 4.4 in 4 of the last 5 seasons. That’s a big difference.
How did the Braves do it in the 90s? Dominant pitching. Sure, they added a couple position players sch as McGriff and Lofton, but it was the big 3 of Cys Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine that carried the Braves. We need that again. If the other team only scores once, you win it with 2. Simple as that.
By bravesforever
December 18, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this
QUIT WORRYING ABOUT SMOLTZ , GLAVINE, PEAVY, BURNETT, FURCAL,.LETS INVEST OUR MONEY IN THE FARM SYSTEM MONEY THAT WILL BUY THE BEST SCOUTS. LOOK AT FLORIDA THEY HAVE TWO WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. YOU KNOW WHY THEY DRAFTED WELL AND ACKNOWLEDGE TALENT. WE’RE PAYING SCOUTS THAT ARE NOT DOING THE BEST. GET RID OF THOSE GUYS AND REPLACE EM. THE FUTURE OF YOUNG PLAYERS WILL GET US THERE QUICKER. DEVELOPE WIHTIN!!!
By Achilles
December 18, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this
where will we go from here? i read that deals with the cardinals have not worked out for kelly johnson for ludwick…where will find our two needs we have. Dunn? i know they havent expressed interest but they also said they hadnt had interest in Lowe and now im reading we are. im really confused. i liked the perspective of having fookie back but his agents are a*****. get smoltzy, another arm, and a BIG bat. what about pat the bat?
By clpendley
December 18, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
The guy will be on the I R three weeks into the season or busted for his third DUI, thats why he wants to stay in LA (there laws on being a drunk are not as strict as GA’s).
By Tron5000
December 18, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this
Tami, Flowers is with the White Sox. Only way he’s hurting the Braves is if they meet in the World Series or interleague play.
He didn’t really have a future with the Braves, far as I can tell. We’ve pretty much got the catcher position locked up for a while. So I’m not upset that they traded him. What gets me is what I perceive to be the lack of value that we got in return. Dude killed it in the fall league. I think the Braves could’ve gotten something more for the package that we dealt away (which included Lillibridge and two other prospects) than Vazquez. Don’t know much about the Boone Logan kid that the Sox included in the deal, but he has a career ERA of 5.87 in 110 innings. Not exactly a stat that makes me jump for joy.
By BamaBrave
December 18, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
Indeed…we’ll get over this. However, I did like the idea of having a bonafide leadoff hitter, and having Kelly Johnson move to left, keeping his bat in the lineup. It proves - to me anyway - that Wren is a good chess player. I like the way he’s thinking. You just can’t trust scumbag, parasitic sports agents…
By BO..........
December 18, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
Kudos! I think Braves need to go in with they have. Signing Smoltz of course. by July we will know if Frenchy rebounds, if not maybe Heyward, Schafer, Hanson, and Medlin will be ready. Trade Chipper and Smoltz for prospects. maybe even Vasquez. I just feel Braves will suprise alot of people. with every one healthy Diaz and Frenchy hitting, Escobar, Johnson, Reyes, and Morton, and Parr. we are as good as anyone else potentially. lets face it, in Baseball it all about potential anyway, with all the injuries,slumps and most of all chemestry.
By ATLawk
December 18, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
Furcal may be 31 with a bad back, and he may not be as good of a player as Yunel but I don’t think that it’s fair to just compare him to Yunel. As you said, if the Braves had signed him, we would’ve likely shipped of Yunel in a deal to bring in Peavy. I think you have to consider how the Braves would be as a team with perhaps Furcal and Peavy versus a Braves team with Yunel and Vazquez. We can’t compare the two players because Furcal would not have been signed just to replace Yunel at SS; he was just supposed to be part of a scheme to give Wren some flexibilty/options in trading for Peavy. That’s where Furcal’s value is.
By Spanky
December 18, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
Well, now I have to go to a Dodgers game. I have to boo Raffy’s classless butt.
By Marc
December 18, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
The deal seemed to make sense as we don’t have any great second basemen prospects near Major League ready (maybe none at all), yet we have several outfielders nearing the bigs. So we would have avoided a situation where we have to trade for a one or two year gap player. But at the same time I tend to think any player with back issues is too big of a risk to give multi-year deals to. All in all I’m a bit apathic in how I feel about all this.
A bit off-topic, are there any rumors about trying to get J.P. Howell? He can give us a left-handed pitcher in the rotation which we need in my opinion, and the Rays don’t have anywhere to put him in their 09’ rotation (I get this from the fact that every scout I’ve heard of thinks he can be a regular starter). Also I/m reading now that Baldelli’s disorder was misdiagnosed. Apperantly he has “channelopathy, a non-progressive, highly treatable disease.”
Sign that man right now! Cheap and effective - I like that over any other OF trade proposals I’ve seen. BTW I’m a Florida residant so I keep up with the Rays and Marlins a good bit too.
Go Braves!
By Howie from Poughkeepsie
December 18, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this
So it’s unanimous - well stated Mark! My problem is that agents are using the Braves and their $40M budget to raise the anty for players who clearly intend to go elsewhere. It happend with Burnett and again with Furcal. Braves management needs to re-energize the aura that Atlanta is the place to play and live. Burnett had no allegiance to Atlanta, but Furcal should be enbarrassed playing the ‘Cox is a father figure’ BS and then go back to the Dodgers for not a whole lot more than the Braves offered. However, in both cases, if the Braves hd the same aura they had when they were winning all those division titles, we might have gotten one or both of these guys. Not sure how to do that without that string of division titles and probably without Cox after 2009, but I think that is the more compelling issue to address than only money.
By Scoots
December 18, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this
I’m glad we didn’t get Burnett, but I have to disagree about Furcal. I’m not happy we didn’t get him. I think a tandem of Furcal and Yunel at SS and 2B would have been great for this team. Having two speedsters 1-2 in the lineup creates so much havoc for opposing teams, and I would go to more games just to see the two of them turn double-plays.
It’s also very disheartening to see the Braves repeatedly fail to acquire who we are going after. There’s a reason Wren is upset about not getting Furcal, and he obviously knows more than we do about the situation. Maybe because he would have kept him and Escobar for a great 1-2 tandem up the middle, or maybe because he had a trade lined up where Furcal was a necessary piece of it -either way, I have to disagree that I should be ‘happy’, Mark.
By Howie from Poughkeepsie
December 18, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
So it’s unanimous - well stated Mark! My problem is that agents are using the Braves and their $40M budget to raise the anty for players who clearly intend to go elsewhere. It happend with Burnett and again with Furcal. Braves management needs to re-energize the aura that Atlanta is the place to play and live. Burnett had no allegiance to Atlanta, but Furcal should be enbarrassed playing the ‘Cox is a father figure’ BS and then go back to the Dodgers for not a whole lot more than the Braves offered. However, in both cases, if the Braves hd the same aura they had when they were winning all those division titles, we might have gotten one or both of these guys. Not sure how to do that without that string of division titles and probably without Cox after 2009, but I think that is the more compelling issue to address than simply money.
By lolMarkBradleylol
December 18, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
I dont know what Mark is smoking, but its not like Tyler Flowers is some can’t miss super-duper prospect. Dude is what, 22 or 23, and he’s just now going to be playing AA ball? His defense is also just a shade better than horrendously terrible and virtually NO ONE expects him to remain behind the plate. So, you’ve got a 1B/DH type with some power. Guess what, those guys are a dime a dozen. Basically, you got a guy that’s in line to bat .270-.290 at the major league level (IF he pans out) that plays 1B/DH and hit 25+ homers. I’ll swap you that for an inning-eating starter with good stuff and a nice K ratio ANY day of the week.
By Herschworld
December 18, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
I totally agree I only wanted F******* so we could just turn around and trade him
By STH
December 18, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
it is so hard for me to even read bradley articles, done nothing but tear and ripp the Braves for so long even when were at our best and one ofthe best in the mlb, and burnett is what you lavish over? Wow he finally won more than 12 games and only once, sounds like an ace to me!! Do you remeber the name Zito cause mark my words it sounds the same as burnet to me. Sign huge deal after one decent year with great run support and average again the next few years. Man even Zito had better numbers than burnet before his huge contract. We could and should have a rotation of Peavy, Smoltz, JJ, wainwright, and Hanson, and hudson. Pitching wins ask the braves about having big 3 plus a Neagle, Milwood, or Avery. PItching wins and it is undeniable. Take Furcal and trade for Peavy we have better chance, but no Furcal cause we can not draw FA talent, its about a world series for the vet FA has much has the money, and we dont appear to be contenders to win a world series this year.
By G-funk
December 18, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
YOUTH MOVEMENT! At this point, lets let Smoltz walk away (if he really wants to), Glavine retire, and go with Vasquez,Hanson,Reyes,Campillo,and Jurrgens, trim the payroll down, bring up the most talented left fielder in AAA and give the young guys a chance. No high priced free agent wants to come here this offseason anyway, so 2009 should be about developing talent rather than winning games, then add free agents to fit the puzzle of the next couple of years. The Cleveland Indians did this after they were forced to blow up there roster after the 01 season and got back to the playoffs in 07. I hope it does not take 5-6 years, but at least they did develop some major league talent. The Braves way of thinking right now is not working.
By Herschworld
December 18, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
I totally agree I only wanted F******* so we could just turn around and trade him..But I also am begining to have concerns about Wren’s ability to make a deal, or better yet close one
By Brian
December 18, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
Bradley, what do you mean you don’t understand the signing of Vazquez? We all know, or should know, that Wren traded for a guy that Bobby has drooled over for 10 years! That is the thing that strikes me about Frank Wren…he seems to have an ego thing of being the guy who brings in a guy that the fans, or manager, want back or have been trying to reel in for awhile. Glavine is one, and Vazquez so far. Now, I’m not saying it’s a bad thing IF the timing is right. The Vazquez deal, intentional or not by Wren, is a smart choice for where this team is at. We need an innings eater that averages 200 K’s a year.
By the way, what’s all the talk about getting younger? My God, KJ/ Escobar/ JJ/ Diaz/ Hanson/ McCann/ Francoeur/ etc. are ALL still under 30, so we’re plenty young. And YES, Smoltz needs to be re-signed! You cannot have a team too young if you want to compete…PERIOD! Get Sheets, sign Dunn, and have a rotation of Sheets/Smoltz/JJ/Vazquez/Hanson on opening day. At this point, Dunn looks very impressive between Chipper and McCann. Maybe even trade for Dye/Ordonez if possible, but I agree to keep the young core of the good prospects together! Oh yeah, and re-sign Tavarez because he will be more than happy to throw a 90 mph dart into Furcal’s ribs!!
By Knowing Fan
December 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
It’s not so much that the Braves didn’t get Furcal, it’s the fact that Wren was the fall guy for Furcal and his agent, leaving Wren—-again, unfortunately—with egg on his face and the continuing sage of horrible off-season management.
Agree 100% that the only real deal he made; that of getting a mediocre, no-upside hurler like Vasquez for one of our star prospects —is an awful one.
Right now we have an awful team…mediocre starting pitching, no power and, other than McCann and a wonderful but aging Chipper, a flat, dull, boring squad.
By Knowing Fan
December 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
It’s not so much that the Braves didn’t get Furcal, it’s the fact that Wren was the fall guy for Furcal and his agent, leaving Wren—-again, unfortunately—with egg on his face and the continuing sage of horrible off-season management.
Agree 100% that the only real deal he made; that of getting a mediocre, no-upside hurler like Vasquez for one of our star prospects —is an awful one.
Right now we have an awful team…mediocre starting pitching, no power and, other than McCann and a wonderful but aging Chipper, a flat, dull, boring squad.
By Herschworld
December 18, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this
I totally agree I only wanted F******* so we could just turn around and trade him..But I also am begining to have concerns about Wren’s ability to make a deal, or better yet close one
By Herschworld
December 18, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this
I totally agree I only wanted F******* so we could just turn around and trade him..But I also am begining to have concerns about Wren’s ability to make a deal, or better yet close one
By Furcalthedrunk
December 18, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
I bet a lot of you forgot how the Braves pulled Furcal through his drunken days while serving as a Brave…there is a reason why he only performs on contract years…that is the year he sobbers up.
By Realistic
December 18, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Nice work Mark. I agree with you.
I think Braves fans are unrealistic with our expectaions of trades this year. Clearly, there are not any truly great free agents available (and the high quality pitchers are outpriced).I mean after having TEX here for a year —who in ATLANTA - would agree to pay HIM— 22 million a year? BORAS and TEX have got to be joking ! The dude only started to hit in JULY! He is so overpriced. IT IS RIDICULOS! It also shows what a sad,tiny free agent market it is.
However, I do feel WREN dropped the ball with PEAVY. Clearly, Wren does not have the talent that J. Sherholtz had at negotiation. Prospects are just that—- possible players. Peavy could pitch for us right now,today. We cannot compete within our division with the “current” pitchers we have available today. And without the ACE pitcher to shut down the other team, our woeful offense is doomed. All that being said, we in the ATL will have to be patient and realistic and hope these prospects are the second coming of GLAVIN & CHIPPER.
By #1 Cox Fan
December 18, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
Whether the Braves obtained Furcal or not does not bother me as much as this “Business Man” of a manager handled the situation. Maybe I am a fool, but I am a Business Manager for a Global Telecommunications company and I believe there is still a level of morality in business and Mr. Kinzer decided he would have none of that. It is VERY obvious that there was either an implied or stated verbal agreement, I can’t see that JS protege Mr. Wren would have been so blunt in his statement to the media otherwise.
The southern boy in me would love to see a high and tight Smoltz (as a Brave) fastball to Furcal for the game winning strike out in the 2009 NLCS. But I guess the Braves got a bit of work to do before we will see that happen.
By Will
December 18, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
It doesn’t appear we have a very good GM running the Braves right now. I know from “inside sources” that Wren spent his first 6 months on the job running to Cox for advice on EVERYTHING. The man simply wasn’t prepared for this position. He wasn’t asking for input so much as he was asking, “Am I doing this right?” A quality GM wouldn’t need to bolster his confidence about every move in such a way. I don’t see where Wren has done much of anything right since taking over for Schuerholz. This team needs so much work that I don’t see any hope for next year. Chipper will be injured 1/3 of the season. At this point, .500 would be a bigger miracle than what the Falcons are currently doing. Well…not really, but most can see my point. 2009 is looking bleak for the Braves.
I wish Cox, Smoltz, and Glavine would go ahead and retire so that they could all enter the HOF with Maddux. A youth movement is our only hope, as Wren seems incapable of improving the team via free agency.
By Howie from Poughkeepsie
December 18, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
About Flowers…I too would have like to keep him and see how he develops, but one good year in the low minors does not a major league career make. While we made mistakes leeting guys like Wainright and Schmidt go whne they were ‘high prospects’, anyone remember what happend to other past ‘cant misses’ like Tarasco, Mordecai, Chen, Bong, Spoonybarger, Hessman, Hodges, Dawley, Charles Thomas, Nick Gree, Capellan, Langerhans, Marte, Colon and Thorman? In return for some of these guys we got key players like McGriff, Renteria and Hudson. Maybe it will be a mistake - looking back ten years from now - trading Flowers for Vazquez, but look at the names above and see that it is rare when ‘phenoms’ actually turn out to be phemominal.
By Daniel
December 18, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
Mark you are dead wrong on this one. Furcal a 30 for 3 is a good deal. A legitimate leadoff hitter is a rare commodity. He also has matured as a hitter, going opposite field. Yes he had a injury last year, but his value is still greater than Yunel’s potential. Escobar is a nice talent, but frankly overrated by the other bloggers. And certainly using him to trade of a pitcher of Peavy’s caliber, who is under contract for 3 more years is NOT trading young for old. It is trading potential for talent. I agree that Burnett is not worth what the Yankees are paying him, but this Furcal debacle hurts.
By braves4ever
December 18, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Mark, this feels like bottom of the 9th, 2 out,down 1, bases loaded, playoff game last chance ,and our best hitter just wiffed.Ouch ,it doesn’t feel good that we are looking at a “gotta have every thing work perfect next year” dream to just get prepared for 2009. A least its not like the Falcons season a year ago, we do have a lot to be thankful for.(Falcons for one). We have to start over,do we have the patience to see the challenges ahead? In todays sports arenas you have 6 months to rebuild ,turn it around etc. We have missed for a lot of reasons this years period.I say bring up 6 new guys from within ,mix them ,let em play next year.At worst it will be fun to see their talent and see the future in them. Hope is the tie that binds,without it and you die,with it and you can weather storms and still smile.Lets smile about the Falcons ,have hope about the baby Braves and enjoy all the good in 2009.
By Eric
December 18, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
Okay, so you would rather want Yunel over Furkie and Peavy? Yunel along with some other talent would’ve been shipped to San Diego for arguably the best pitcher in the NL. This hurts the Braves tremendously because I think Yunel and Furkie are about the same production-wise, but you also get an ACE!!! This was bad for the Braves, no doubt about it.
By Achilles
December 18, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
whoever said we should trade chipper ur an idiot. the man is the face of this franchise. he will be healthy this year. he will be fine. we just dont have anyone to protect his bat so he will walk an all time high this year.
if we lose smoltz that will kill our fan base. GET HIM NOW! before the deal turns into a Burnett/Furcal deal.
By MJM
December 18, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
MB, It’s not a matter who is better, Escobar or Furcal. It’s a matter of the Braves needing a lead off hitter and a spark plug.
By London Correspondant
December 18, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
Furcal is no great loss - it looked like we were just trying to find a way to spend the money. Hang on to the last minute & sign someone like Burrel for a couple of years, and Randy Johnson for one year. Come 2010 JJJ & Hanson will look like stars & Hudson will be back.
The Flowers trade was no big issue. Sure, he might be the next Mike Piazza, he might also be the next Scott Thorman - he’s a long way from the majors and he was blocked.
All those who think the Braves have a down on Escobar should realise that they were making him the centerpiece of a trade for one of the top 5 (and most affordable) pitchers in all baseball. That’s a sign of how HIGH he is rated, not how low.
By Aaron E
December 18, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
The Braves need to accept the fact that they’re officially in rebuilding mode. Gone are the glory days of the 90s, and Free Agents are noticing. Peavey didn’t want to come here for a reason - ATL isn’t much of an upgrade for an ace when you’ve been in SD for a while. Ditto for Burnett, and I expect we’d get the same cold shoulder from Lowe and any other “tier 1” FA on the market (not that Lowe and Burnett are tier 1, but in this market they’re as close as you can get).
No, the Braves need to suck it up and invest that budget windfall on another youth movement. They need to acknowledge that they’re 3 years out from being a contender again and start building up for that time. Frank Wren is a general contractor now, and our whole house needs renovations from the foundation up.
By MJM
December 18, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
MB, It’s not a matter who is better, Escobar or Furcal. It’s a matter of the Braves needing a lead off hitter and a spark plug.
By gayle
December 18, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
That Furcal spurned the Braves or merely used them for leverage is not the real issue. Each of the now many who have passed on the Braves are dealt with disparagingly here like one who disown a boyfriend or girlfriend who broke up with them.
That is juvenile. If you are to take Frank Wren at his word, he diligently pursued each of these players with the real intention of them contributing to the Braves next year and in the future.
Trashing Furcal or Burnett or Hampton or Peavy or Tex does little to obscure the fact that Atlanta and the Braves are no longer the destination of choice.
I think the fans and Mr. Bradley would be well served to look at the cause of these many rejections rather than trying to soothe the pain of rejection by trashing each player that has spurned this team.
By thad
December 18, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
the bottom line is this… we still dont have a rotation! morton was near 7.00 with his era jo jo was near 8.00 with his era campillo was marginal at best so we have a rotation of javier vazquez and jurgens. we have 2 starters!!! something better happen quick or we are in for a longgggggggggg year.
By Jaye
December 18, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
I agree there, MJM. I like Yunel and hope he brings the noise with him this year, if having him at short stop is how the winter turns out for the Braves.
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this
Mark,
I agree with the fact that Rafael Furcal, and Aj Burnett present risk. But if the braves had gotten either one I would have been very happy. I mean having Aj Burnett would have solved braves pitching problems. Or having Furcal leading off again stealing more than 17 bases with an obp over 350, and having a slugging % over 400. Also moving Kelly to left field might help his hitting, and finally reach his 20-25HR potential, and imagine having Furcal and Escobar as DP combo(Kotchman would have had to change his glove every inning).
The risk obviously is high. Aj Burnett injury history isn’t exactly encouraging, and Rafael Furcal back injury is very unsettling(the same as Mark Kotsay).
The thing is Mark, there isn’t anyone left in the FA market. Derek Lowe(36 yrs old) is a Scott Boras client, who is asking more money and the same amount of years as Aj Burnett. Adam Dunn is asking for at least 4 yrs and 16 million or more. Manny Ramirez(37 yrs old) wants 25mill/per year, and at least 3-4 yrs, and the Yankees, Dodgers, and Angels are interested. Andy Pettitte want’s at least 13mill/per yr, and he is 36 yrs old(I think he doesn’t have much interest in Atlanta and he would rather stay in Texas or the Yankees). Ben Sheets, he is an ace no doubt about that, but after what they experimented this year would the braves even offer him a contract.
Bobby Abreu, Kenshin Kawakami and Pat Burrell make some sense, but they would have to sign at least two of those three. Kenshin Kawakami, and either Abreu, or Burrell. And they absolutely have to resign John Smoltz(no matter the price).
By Spud Webb
December 18, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this
Bradley, good job, good article. Furcal will get hurt, no worries there. Yea, Vasquez I will never understand that move. Gutless is what he is. Burnetts arm will fall off in the next year or so, so that was also good money saved. We need a rotation & we need to get going on that. J & Vasquez at this point?
By MountainDawg
December 18, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
Furcal is washed up…glad we didn’t bring him aboard!
By Jack
December 18, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
I agree we need to build for the ground up like in the 90’s. No more swapping for one year wonders and old geezers. I would rather endure another year out of the playoffs and rebuild for another run.
By Jack
December 18, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
I agree we need to build from the ground up like in the 90’s. No more swapping for one year wonders and old geezers. I would rather endure another year out of the playoffs and rebuild for another run.
By millerhuggins
December 18, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
Farewell to Furcal and his sleezy agent. And I’m glad Wren slammed the door on that guy with his “there is no bridge” comments. It’s also time to say goodbye to Smoltz and Glavine. That doesn’t mean we don’t laud them for their contributions, but it’s time to give the kids a chance to grow and develop … we’ll take our lumps for another three years or so … just stop giving up our prospects for stop-gap help when we all realize that stop-gap help will not mean a 25-game improvement in the standings.
By Steve
December 18, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
I predict a 100 loss season for the braves unless they acquire a big bat and a number 1 starter… its that simple. Furcal’s signing would have given the Braves the option to trade for one of those and now… nothing. Burnett and Furcal are going with the trend and that is to avoid Atlanta like the plague. Who can blame them? Ownership that is not committed to winning, a self deluded front office that thinks it has a contending team now…. umm no. I thought the Braves had all this money saved up to spend this off season? How about throwing some of it at Jeremy Hermida or Derrick Lowe or Ben Sheets… all risks yes… but at this point there is nothing to lose but more than 100 games.
By tyrone h
December 18, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this
what about bobby abreu
By Steve
December 18, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
Personally my feeling is if John Sch. was still calling the shots, some of these agents wouldn’t be trying to ride roughshot all over us.
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
Mark,
When the deal was made for Javy Vazques, I had a similar reaction to your’se. But as much as Tyler Flowers as much as he impressed in the AFL, do you really think he would be better than Brian McCann. From the video I saw, he doesn’t look that good, I’d probably compared him to Kelly Shoppach(who hit 250 and 20HR in 112games for CLE) as his maximun potential. And Vazques has an amazing streak of having at least 32 start per season, and almost always he averages 200 innings. He is a strikeout pitcher, and a move back to the nl would lower his ERA. He has a good fastball and curveball.
By blueridge brave
December 18, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this
Brian great comments. I agree that Javier is great for this team. An inning eater taht can strike people out on a regular basis for a gut who is a bomber with terrible DEF. I think the braves should go after sheets if they can sign him to a 2 year 13 mil contract maybe with a vesting third year. This would give us some time to get our young pitching up and give us a good combo up front Sheets/Jurjens/Javier. Not bad. And then I would try to sign Dunn. Im not a huge fan but put the masher between chip and Brian and thats not bad either we can compete and not be locked up in the long term.
By RazorRuddock
December 18, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this
We certainly, abosolutely, unquestionaly DO NOT NEED RAFFY!!!!!! This is WHY we shipped him out of here in the first place. We didnt need his return. If the Dodgers were fed up with him, then they are the dumb fools for resigning him. Hes a washed up wannabe who will never be anything more than a journeyman player.. Good riddens!
By kevin
December 18, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this
I agree. I don’t understand the shopping of Escobar, he looks like he’s developing into a future star.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
Javier Vazquez also has a career losing record. I see nothing “amazing” about that. It’s one thing to work a lot of innings, quite another to work good innings.
By larry
December 18, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
I’m not so concerned about losing Furcal, as I am seeing what a complete rinky dink GM Frank Wren is. When Wren is talking about the future, it always sounds to me like he is talking about saving his job rather than the possiblitliy of success of the Braves on the field.
By GM R
December 18, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
I agree - 2009 is going to be another bad year with or without Furcal. Bringing him back had too much downside - injury risk plus those long droughts everyone has conveniently forgotten when he would swing for the fence every at bat. Better to bring up some young talent than tie up big dollars that could be better spent next year.
By Robbie T
December 18, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
Its time to get off bashing Frank Wren.Frank Wren is the GM for this team.He is a part of the managment system that picks who plays for this team.His title alone sets him up for any praise or outrage that comes from fans or critics.Frank does not make decisons based on his instincs alone.The team president and the field Manager also have a voice in any personel moves for the team.Frank Wren is a respected baseball man who deserves more respect from the fans here on this blog.Frank and the Braves have made every effort to improve this team and you can’t fault them for the way things have turned out.They offerd more than enough to the Padres for Peavy and were turned down.A.J.Burnett spurned their offer because his wife does’nt like to fly.At least thats what his camp said.And now they did not sign Furcal because of shady underhanded tactics from Kincer,Tellems and Furcal.Frank Wren and the Atlanta Braves in my opinion did everything they could to bring these players in to help this team.And the one trade they did make is a good one.Javier Vasquez is an established starting pitcher who thows 200 plus inning’s every year.Tyler Flowers is a good prospect with potential to be a good Major League catcher someday.But Flowers was stuck in the Braves system behind an allstar catcher who has already proven what he can do.Tyler Flowers was expendable and Frank and the Braves did themselves and Flowers a favor by moving him in the trade for Vasquez.Same for Lillibridge,potential but young and no chance to play here.You have to give something up to improve your team and that is what the Braves did to get Vasquez.Its no secret that the Braves need a proven leadoff man with speed in the lineup.Furcal has been that kind of player all his career and thats why the Braves wanted him back.We also need power bats at all three positions in the outfield but thats not going to happen.If we are lucky we may get one.The team will acquire another starting pitcher before spring training but the market is weak.A lefthander is needed and i’m sure that that Frank Wren and the Braves will get someone.We also have two pitchers over forty years old that are coming off injuries that the team needs to make decisons on.If they can pitch lets give them incentive laden contracts.If they are not ready to go then its time to move on for the team.This will free managment to get players on the team who can produce.We have been spoiled for so long with all the winning teams.And now that the team has been down for a couple of years the fans do not have enough patience to let the team rebuild.Change is coming to the Braves whether we like it or not.The team needs to improve and it will over time.Frank Wren is a good baseball man and time will prove that.
By Save the Future!
December 18, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
I, as most fans, clamored for these deals to happen when the rumors started floating about…Now, in hind sight, I think agree with you Mark except on the Vazquez trade. We needed a pitcher ( or 2 ) of his type to steady the rotation, eat some innings, and help take some of the strain off an over worked bullpen.
This gives the young starters a chance to develope and we’re only into his contract for 2 years. Dudes not spectacular, definitely middle rotation, BUT he is durable and his numbers are steady over his career.
Peavy would have been nice * BUT* not at the asking price and he, along with a “big bat ” addition wasn’t going to put us over the top.
Picking up Burnett would have been nice but given his medical history was he really worth the price the Yankees paid and for 5 years!…only time will tell.
Signing Furcal to play 2nd at 10 million a year wouldn’t make much sense unless another deal was being set-up for Esco whom I really think we should keep…He’s competitive, affordable, and has much, much more upside than Furcal.
No guarantee Furcals back is going to hold up and how much has his speed and range been diminished?
I read folks bashing Wren over all these things like he’s to blame for it all…Get real! Folks bringing up articles from when he was fired 9+ years ago as Baltimores GM because he dared to offend ” Lord Ripken “! If you read the related articles they also say how in 1 year he had began to replenish and rebuild a desolate farm system which had not produced a home grown product in years! And since his firing they’ve had how many GMs? how many coaches? and how many trips to the post season?
Some folks still complaining about Wren not throwing money at Hampton to keep him and saying ” bad move” LMAO!! The same Hampton who hardly pitched in 3+ years and was EVERY bloggers favorite pinyata?!?
Just because the Braves have a rumored 40 to 50 million to invest doesn’t mean the GM should spend it just for the sake of spending it! Remember this, that 40+ million spent this year also counts as 40+ million on next years budget and the next….
Look, I’m as big a fan as any and I will always support MY team through good times and lean times like any true fan does. I don’t want to trade or mortgage the future on quick fixes that may or may not work!
I realize all the young talent the Braves have want pan out but no doubt they are highly desired commodities by others teams who come wanting to pry them away. That tells me there is something good coming in the future that only needs time to develop…. Lets have a little patients guys!
RESIGN SMOLTZ NOW!
Sign another dependable, affordable middle rotation type for a year or two, maybe take a chance on a guy like Penny or Mulder with an incentive laden contract with a far lesser amount guaranteed. Resign Norton for the bench, maybe Ohman for the pen, Give Frenchy, Jones, Anderson, Blanco, Schaffer, Diaz etc…a chance to distinguish themselves this spring and see what happens.
Personally, I’m gonna sit back, relax, read all the blogs, LMAO, and let Wren and the front office do what they get paid to do!
Will Wrens tenure be a success or a bust? Dude did great last year….remember JJ, Gorky, Infante, Ohman, and Got a young 1st baseman and 2 up and coming pitchers out of the TEX debacle…Only time will tell…
By Bo
December 18, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
Mark another great job. The Braves didn’t need Furcal as all will see before long.
The Braves need a New Mgr (not TP) that will guide Team back to Prominence. Maybe Ned Yost, Maddux etc..but we need new blood, new everything to spark this team.
The old gray mare is not what she used to be. Management needs to put up or shut up..Bobby Cox is not the second coming and players want to play for a winner. Cox and the Braves have forgot what got them there years ago and need to look at where they are now. It don’t matter what we say, nothing is going to change till the good old boy system is dead. Have at me-all u pros.
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
Mark, I know he isn’t an amazing pitcher, he is a good #3-4 pitcher. He is not a big game pitcher, but having a losing record is over rated. I mean he started his career with Montreal Expos, and they had a pretty bad team. He also spent a year with the D-backs when they finished dead last. It doesn’t always depend on the pitcher, it depends on the team they’re on, on their run support, and how effective are their relievers. I mean Mark Mulder had a 17-8 record in 2004 with a 4.43 ERA. Javy Vazques had 17 quality starts(at least 6 innings and 3ER or less).
By Preston Hannaty
December 18, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this
I agree with Mark that the Braves are better off without Furcal. I think we should share our opinions with Paul Kinzer. pkinzer wmgllc com
By Jeff321
December 18, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this
Mark Bradley has it exactly right!
By aswingruber
December 18, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this
Dead on MB.. I’m beginning to question Wren’s competence as a GM. We shouldn’t even consider giving up a young guy with all the potential that Escobar has and letting an oft-injured inconsistent gimp back Furcal take his place. And even if it was the right deal, Wren wouldn’t be able to close it.
By BO..........
December 18, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
I still say lets just sign Smoltz. I do like the upside of Jaun Rivera and Joe Nelson. maybe even give Mulder a chance Huddie could help with that one. If for the most part everyone stays healthy, ALL the young guys should get better. Led by Francoure. Reyes, Morton, Escobar, Johnson, Parr, Campillo, Jurejins, Kotchman, Boyer, Blanco, Anderson, Prado. great start. Now we go into July. if things are not working. WE should have Hanson, Medlin, Heyward, Schafer ready to go. shift gears, trade Smoltz and Larry Wayne to contenders, for a TOP SS and Cather prospects, wich is the only place we are tnin right now. 2009 could be great. if not just dont make any give away the farm deals 2010 will be entertaining. only deal that looks good for 09 is Halliday, Rios type deal. I really like Grienke. and i would take Guillen just to get him. then move Guillen in another deal if Braves dont like him. if Jeff does not rebound Guillen sure looks like an upgrade to me. I really would like to see what the kids do before we make a huge, expensive mistake. but for the most part Braves brass have made positive moves involving the young guys. Andy Marte Salty Flowers yes Flowers. his pass balls in the AFL doomed the team. Braves have no need for a DH. LOOK OUT BOONE LOGAN BRINGS THE HEAT
By Robert
December 18, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
Yeah, them grapes were sour anyway
By ant.b
December 18, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this
Mr.Wren I was wrong about Furcal ,But I would still bring back A.Jones back to ATL and sign B.Sheets, WE as fans only want player that want to be here, you are doing a good job so far,These guys are using us to drive up the price, But we are going to be better without them.
By raymond
December 18, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
Why do people think Hudson will be back after 2009. If I am correct it is the last year of his contract and probably won’t be fully recovered to prove worthy of a contract in 2010. He will be coming off arm surgery and may not even be offered a contract until he can prove his arm is healed. I see where they think he may be back in August but that is a best case senario.
By Will
December 18, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
I do agree with this article. At first I was just happy the Braves made a move, any move. But Furcal will get injured again and that money is much better spent elsewhere.
By ant.b
December 18, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
Mr.Wren I was wrong about Furcal ,But I would still bring back A.Jones back to ATL and sign B.Sheets, WE as fans only want player that want to be here, you are doing a good job so far,These guys are using us to drive up the price, But we are going to be better without them.
By PTBNL
December 18, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
I admittedly have not done the research to speak directly about actual persons that could be involved, and I know that this is certainly something that an actual general manager could answer completely, but could it be possible for the Braves to actually use the money they have available to buy the contract of some promising minor league players? (I.E.- a couple of pitchers that we gave up in the Tex deal… and a certain SS in that deal as well.)
It seems that the present economic state of baseball many teams (like the Padres) need money. I don’t know what the Padres have in the minors, but it seems like it could be good strategy to buy the contract of several very good prospects could pay big dividends in the future.
Like I said, I haven’t done the research to know what such a prospect would cost, but it seems that it would cost much less than proven MLB players. Obviously, some would never pan out, but others would. Plus, such prospects are very valuable in trades. So even if we do make a major trade or two, we would still have a strong future with what remains.
Anyway… just a thought.
By DAP
December 18, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
we may have to hijack this until DOB gets another blog off the ground.
Here’s an article about Bobby Abreu. i really think the brave should think about offering him$36mil over three years to play left field in atlanta. if history serves, he will play everyday, get on base at a high rate, steal a few bases, hit alot of doubles and about 20 homers. not a classic cleanup guy, but with a 3, 4, 5 or chipper, abreu, and mccann, flanked by escobar and johnson, there will be alot of guys on base. (and they can only hold three at a time) also, abreu easily slides into the #3 spot in the order if chipper misses a game. (like that will ever happen)
By ant.b
December 18, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
Mr.Wren I was wrong about Furcal ,But I would still bring back A.Jones back to ATL and sign B.Sheets, WE as fans only want player that want to be here, you are doing a good job so far,These guys are using us to drive up the price, But we are going to be better without them.
By Dave
December 18, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
In 2007 Furcal was not injured like last year. He only had 25 stolen bases and batted .270 thinking he will be a better base stealer or player after back surgery at 31 is just wrong. Reality is Furcal is a risk and at $33 million for three years I would rather keep what we have and get younger, less risky, and cheaper players than Furcal. He probably did us a favor.
By Harold
December 18, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this
**Some of you Atlanta Sports Fans are simply clueless, Mark Bradley, Terrance Moore and Jeff Schultz included. You three could take a few lessons from Furman Bisher on creative writing - some High School newspapers are better written.
Your readers must have been on some other planet because the last time the Braves were anywhere close to being competitive was just before they traded Rafael Furcal. That, too, was the last time they won their Division. Furcal gave the Braves speed at the top of the lineup and he made everone around him that much better. The only way the Braves can compete within their division is to mirror the other teams; speed at the top, timely hitting and good pitching. They’ve conquered two of the three necessities, why do you think they went after Furcal. Wake up people and try thing with your head and not with you “eyes”.**
By Eric
December 18, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
If you’re going to go for a youth movement and give away the next 2-3 years then you have to all the way. You have to trade Chipper, Hudson, give Vasquez back, don’t sign Smoltz.. I don’t think the Braves are prepared to do that right now because I think they still see themselves as a team that can compete for a championship with a couple more parts. Whether this is true or not depends on the parts. You plug Peavy, Ludwick, Furcal onto this team and you’ve got something. Of course there are still a zillion iffs but until Chipper retires I don’t think they are going to go into full rebuilding mode.
By Rodney Derrick
December 18, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
The Hall of Fame Tour Solution— braves should sign griffey to platoon with diaz, andruw in deal where dodgers pay all but 2 million of his salary, randy johnson so we can have the 300th win, and of course glavine and smoltz… with cox, this will be a great tour of memories…and who knows, they might all produce….but if and when the braves fall out of contention, trade all of them plus chipper to contenders for big payoff in great young players….added to current youngsters on team and in system and we can have new dynasty!
hire maddux as next manager for next year….all pitchers and hitters will want to play for him to get his knowledge.
Plus with Roger continuing as pitching coach, Braves will have the best two humorists in baseball. Then bring up the AA Manager who stole second base and who Francoeur idolizes, and the Braves can really attract crowds to the Stadium while waiting for the young guys to develop.
By Lee in S GA
December 18, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
I think most fans are so desperate for the Braves to make a trade or acquire a free agent until any player sounds good at first. Even Randy Wolf get some fans excited these days. Escobar will run circles around Furcal in years to come (if not already). Thank goodness this deal never happened. I, for one, can certainly move on and forget about Furcal quickly. At least I don’t have to read / listen to some call him that stupid “Fookie” nickname either.
By Brian
December 18, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
I just read where the Twins were/are interested in Escobar, so I think that might be why Wren and the Braves are so PO’d, that and the fact they got punked by a drunk midget and his agent, but anyways… I’ll take a guess and say Escobar was going to be in a trade regardless of what them saying he wasn’t. Maybe Esco. and Morton to Twins for Baker and Delmon Young. That obviously won’t happen now, but it does make sense, and Scott Baker has very good numbers in ‘08, with a 11-3 record, and an ERA about 3.50 in the AL is very good!
Maybe Wren finds a way to trade for Halladay? KJ/ Morton/ Hernandez/ Locke/ and Reyes for him? I don’t know but he would look nice in a Braves uniform, for sure!
By Kentavo
December 18, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
I don’t mind the Vasquez deal - he will be a sharp improvement over - nothing, basically - as four out of five of last year’s opening day starting rotation are either gone, injured or recovering from injury.
Pairing him with JJ will mean at least two games out of five we have a chance of winning compared to the more crapshoot nature of Morton and JoJo.
I’m not forgetting Campillo, but he’s gonna have to prove he can do it again - and get that hanging slowcurve/changeup thingy down!
By J.D. Phillips
December 18, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
But I would still bring back A.Jones back to ATL and sign B.Sheets, WE as fans only want player that want to be here, you are doing a good job so far
A.J wants to come back to Atlanta because no other team wants him. You gonna let him bat in front of Francouer. The opposing pitcher will certainly be intimated.
By raymond
December 18, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
Mr. Bradley, can you or anyone else on this blog tell me what the Braves are doing now and who they are targeting. Hopefully its more than some Japanese pitcher.
By jenkins
December 18, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
Harold who? Damn man the Braves have not conquered two anything, pitching hell no, hitting hell no, and Furcal was what made us win? Man where’s your brain..open your eyes.
By Jt
December 18, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
If Brandon Webb is available next year you can bet that the Yanks will sign him, as long as they can dish out gobs and gobs of money no one will turn them down. It’s kind of funny though, Everyone knows that Money can’t buy everything, when you have all those hot Headed Super Start players and their Enormous Egos you can’t have Great Team Chemistry and that’s what it takes to win. When is the last time the Yanks won the Series? 99? 9 years ago! But about the Braves I just don’t think anyone but wash up players ( Vazquez) wants to play with the Braves! We haven’t made the Play offs in 3 years, and our pitching right now is in shambles. I mean come on, The Braves were saying they’re Excited about our Pen next Season with hopefully everyone being healthy. And they were excited about Boyer since he was working with Smoltz this season?? Hello? Boyer is a Wreck he gave up Bomb after Bomb after the All Start Break last year!! They should have kept my boy Ken Ray instead of him! And Randy Wolf?? Come on he’s a joke now! i’m tired of the washed up injury prone players!
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
I’d rather bring back Andres Thomas than Andruw Jones.
And, just for the record, the Braves didn’t trade Rafael Furcal. He left as a free agent.
As for Braves’ targets: I think they’ll come back around to Jake Peavy eventually. Or, more precisely, the Padres will come back to them. The longer it goes, the more market conditions work against San Diego.
And I wouldn’t mind landing Bobby Abreu for a couple of years. But that’s the trouble: No big-name free agent is going to sign for a couple of years. (I know, I know. Andruw Jones did, but that was only because he hit .222 in his contract year.)
By J
December 18, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
the one I don’t understand was giving away Tyler Flowers for Javier Vazquez.
Agreed. The Braves throw all this money into McCann, and it’s justified not to rush Flowers up as a catcher. But when the guy is tearing up the Fall league, you should want to entertain moving him to another position, not trade him for a guy who hasn’t had a good year since 2002 (or so it seems). Moving him for Peavy might have made more sense. For Vazquez? I don’t see it. Maybe Wren is hoping Vazquez’ struggles were due to him being in the AL.
I like Escobar more than Furcal. Sure Furcal is fast but he’s an injury risk. Why not go after Juan Pierre instead? He’s lost in the crowded OF cluster-mess that is the Dodgers and stole 40 bags in only 119 games last year? In ‘07, he stole 64 playing a full season. Or you could puruse Willy Taveras, who is a free agrent. He had 68 SB’s to lead the NL last year. There’s your speed at the top of the order, and at way less than what you would’ve paid for Furcal. Save that money you would’ve wasted on Furcal for something else like a Derrick Lowe or a cheap Ben Sheets deal. The problem dogging them is the Braves don’t look “attractive” to the big free agents. There’s no sure-fire guarantee of making the playoffs anymore. Not with the Phillies and Mets re-tooling and the Braves record the last 2 years. Also, their marquee name is Chipper Jones and his in his late 30’s. Smoltz and Glavine are near the end of the line. Hudson is out all of 2009 (or most of it). If these crazy fans can have some patience with the young guys the team might be competitive in a couple years. But in this town it’s “win now or I’m not coming to the games” and “what have you done for me lately?” which means a lot of these young guys will not get the chance to show off their talent at Turner Field.
By CALL MY AGENT......
December 18, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
JOE NELSON
By DJ
December 18, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
Initially, I was rather disappointed with the Braves not being able to seal the deal with Furcal. That was only because of the team not being able to land anyone of major significance thus far during the offseason. It would really bee nice to take advantage of this excess in available funds and get some adequate starting pitching and a decent power bat in the clean-up spot of the lineup. It is easy for Wren to mention that “we have spoken to folks about certain players”, but I really think that they need to be more aggressive. If you say you are planning on having a competitive team for 2009 on the field, then I strongly suggest for some dealings to take place. It is almost as though we will be fighting for last place in the NL East instead of fighting for a division title. I just don’t understand. Plenty of pitching & hitting talent still available, but the question is: HOW BAD DO YOU WANT THE BRAVES TO BE RIGHT THERE IN CONTENTION FOR 2009? Share that with Wren, Schuerholtz, and Cox Mr. Bradley. This is not acceptable for loyal & longtime Braves fans such as myself.
By CALL MY AGENT......
December 18, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
JOE NELSON
By Sam P
December 18, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
I wasn’t happy about his arrival but I am happy Furcal didn’t come. He is 31 and coming off a major injury. Like you said his 2 best years were in contract years.
By STH
December 18, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
after being kicked out of dob blog for simply asking him to report braves news thought i would join in here, we need to build for young pitching and hanson is such a good start, but pitching wins and i am sorry we are desperate for a lead off hitter with speed. abc baseball requires someone that is a run threat and can help us win by leading off. swith hitter with good defense excleentg arm and great speed hard to pss up not many out there. mets wont let reyes go, furcal was a good fit but not a must. start drafting speed one of the fews things you cant teach…
By jenkins
December 18, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
We can all go across town next year and watch some good AAA baseball and don’t have to watch Bobby and his over the hill gang.
By Romola Eaton
December 18, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
Thank goodness Furcal isn’t coming back and as for Bobby Cox, it isn’t Bobby’s fault that they keep losing. Get some new blood in the pitching staff and you will see the team rally around them.
By Romola Eaton
December 18, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this
Thank goodness Furcal isn’t coming back and as for Bobby Cox, it isn’t Bobby’s fault that they keep losing. Get some new blood in the pitching staff and you will see the team rally around them.
By Zac
December 18, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
This is great news. The Braves will have money for Smoltz and money leftover to acquire one of the many free-agent outfielders. Don’t expect them to sign one soon, because the supply outweighs the demand. Prices will be falling soon after Manny settles.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
So you got kicked off Dave’s blog? I’ve never kicked anyone off here. I don’t even know how that’s done. (Maybe I need to learn.)
By nique
December 18, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this
Mark, I agree 100% with what you wrote, except for not blaming Wren for not continuing to pursue Peavy. I think acquiring Peavy and Abreu would really turn this offseason around and maybe give us a shot at competing next year.
By James
December 18, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
Great article.
I completely agree: we should have not given up Tyler Flowers in the JV trade.
Also, what the Braves need right now is a big-time starting pitcher…we all know that. My thinking is you wait, save all that money, and be ready to offer 20 million plus when someone like Tim Lincecum becomes a FA…even if it means waiting until next season.
In the meantime, strengthen the team with smart, key signings. Andy Pettitte would strengthen the rotation. Edwin Encarnacion (This idea was originally stated by another blogger) would be a great player to acquire.
If Wren is wanting to make a splash, he can always go after Ben Sheets…and take a huge risk he’ll stay healthy.
The thing is: when the Yankees had guys like Paul O’Neill and Tino Martinez, they won four WS, including three in a row. When they replaced these players with perennial All-Star/MVP candidates, Alex Rodriguez and Gary Sheffield, they haven’t won anything since. I hope the Braves take note of this and do sign solid, quality players and wait until the right “big-name” pitcher becomes available to throw all of that money at.
Finally, while it would have been admittedly cool to re-sign Furcal, we really do not need him. I like Escobar and do not understand why people are ready to give up on him after 1 1/2 seasons. He should be even better this year than last and if this happens and Glavine and Smoltz are also healthy, the Braves will have a much-better team than people think…a team that will be capable of competing in the NL East…provided the Brave make smart, key FA signings and don’t throw away money at a 10 million per year SS/2B when we already have those positions filled.
By DON
December 18, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
Go get Mike Cameron, sign Burrell, Smoltz, Glavine & a Randy Wolff. It will be an investment till the Hansons and Heywards are ready plus it will keep us competetive. Should still leave some bucks to sink into the farm system
By DAP
December 18, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this
J not trade him for a guy who hasn’t had a good year since 2002 (or so it seems).
it would seem like that if you hadnt looked at any stats in awhile. try these
bad mouthing javier vazquez, but suggesting pierre and tavares? stats really dont appeal to you, do they?
STH are you sure you were kicked out of the DOB blog? im pretty suyre it crashed from too many posts. i cant get in either.
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this
I am not overly impressed with Frank Wren, but one has to wonder this:
If he had more money to play with, would he be more effective? Maybe/maybe not.
I’ll give Frank Wren this much, he don’t have much to work with (in the way of money)
This points to ownership. Some people can say what they want to about Liberty opening up their wallets and all that crap.
Well, guess what, Ted Turner was also a media person just like these Liberty folks are and Ted spent more money.
Reason being, Ted cared about his team, Liberty Media does not.
In a perfect world, I wish that some knight in shining armour (Arthur Blank) would come in and buy the Braves from these “meisers”
The Braves are going to suffer through mediocrity until a local owner steps up and buys them.
Who knows. If we had capable owners who would spend money, maybe Frank Wren would be another John Schuerholz in his prime.
Some people on the blogs have pointed this out to me in defense of Wren and I hear what they’re saying.
It’s the ownership. Frank Wren’s hands are pretty much tied up.
By CALL MY AGENT......
December 18, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this
JAUN RIVERA
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this
Here’s my gripe with trading Tyler Flowers: The same team that went with Corky Miller as its backup catcher keeps trading away catchers. I know it’s not considered ideal having young guys as big-league backups — you’d rather have young guys playing every day — but if it came down to having Flowers or Corky on the roster, which would you prefer?
And what if McCann should get hurt? (Catchers occasionally do, you know?)
By CALL MY AGENT......
December 18, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this
BEN SHEETS
By CALL MY AGENT......
December 18, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
BEN SHEETS
By BigTim43
December 18, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
I wish I could disagree with you Mr. Bradley, but your excellent analysis is right on the Mark!
By CALL MY AGENT......
December 18, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
TY WIGGINGTON
By CALL MY AGENT......
December 18, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
TY WIGGINGTON
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this
I’m not an expert on this, but from what I gather these blogs tend to get really slow when they get up around 1,000 comments. I’ve also heard our technical folks are endeavoring to solve this.
By Jim H.
December 18, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
Wren’s offseason plan has become a lark (get it?)
By James
December 18, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this
Exactly. I was at a Braves/Brewers game back in May or June of last season, and the Braves had a rally going with the tying and winning runs in scoring position. Two outs: up steps Corky Miller.
You could feel the air just completely deflate out of the crowd…then he proceeds to hit a soft line drive up the middle that the 2B didn’t even have to rush to get…it was hit that softly.
The Braves could have used Flowers as Mac’s back-up this season. It would have been good on-the-job training for him as he’d play every fourth or fifth game, and the salary cost (I’m assuming) would have been minimal.
And, he can hit, too.
It is moves like this one that have me worried about the direction this team is headed in.
By Lee in S GA
December 18, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
Mark B.
I don’t quite understand them trading away every good young catcher either. I never understood why Salty (involved in that disaster of a Tex trade) could not have been kept as a back-up to McCann and played 1st base occasionally. Flowers could have probably done this as well. When McCann is out of the line-up to rest or whatever it is just painful to watch this current offense.
By DAP
December 18, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
tyler flowers was more valuable to the braves as a trade piece in 2008 then he would have been as a backup catcher in two years.
the guy hadst even play in AA yet, so he is at least one year away, probably more. you dont keep really good players as backups. you either find a place for them to play, or you trade them. thats how you get the most value.
so why didnt we keep him to play first base in a year or two? several reasons. first good hitting catchers have more value than 1st baseman who hit the same, weather in trade or on the field. second, we have kotchman under control for several more year, and freddie freeman on the way. in two years, by the time flowers MIGHT be ready, freeman might be just as ready, depending on how fast he makes it through the minors. third, we need pitching.
mark, the move i thought was weird last year was getting rid of pena. i dont see why corky was kept over pena, but a back up catcher is not the same as a everyday catcher. you dont treat them the same. you dont use an everyday catcher as a backup, you get max value for him.
By J
December 18, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
Dag
I want to post the stats I see in the link
2002 10 13 3.91 2003 13 12 3.24 2004 14 10 4.91 2005 11 15 4.42 2006 11 12 4.84 2007 15 8 3.74 2008 12 16 4.67
I said he’s had no good seasons since 2002. Looks like to me, he’s had 1 which I highlighted. I didn’t need to look up his stats. Sorry I can’t count the IP as great stats. Throwing that many innings and coming out with those numbers saves the arms in your bullpen….and that’s about it. You can’t be serious when you tell me 11-15 with a 4.42 ERA or 12-16 with a 4.67 are great stats, can you??? I’m a Yankee fan and I was glad they got him in 2003, but when he was getting CRUSHED by the Red Sox in the ALCS, I was cursing him. He’s got great stuff, but it just never seems to materialize.
Oh and I mentioned Pierre and Tavares because someone earlier mentioned the Braves need speed at the top of the order, and I thought those would be cheap alternatives than over-spending on Furcal.
By Stop Crying
December 18, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
Wren must go. Chipper, Frenchy and Kotchman too. Give the next GM a clean slate. This org. is OK in 2 yrs as long as Wren is not around much longer to screw it up.
By Geezer
December 18, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Fire the goofy smiling Frank “Can’t Make A Trade Wren - and bring back JS…at least he did not make us the laughing stock of the league.
By Ken Stallings
December 18, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Bravo! Finally, an AJC sports writer grasps the essential truths!
Furcal perhaps could have returned to Atlanta and helped get another post-season appearance for the Braves. But, with this deal gone sour, he should be in pergatory.
I agree that trading Flowers for Vasquez may make short term sense, but we’ll regret it when we see what kind of player Flowers turns into. And I maintain he could have been groomed for first base assuming the Braves didn’t wish to exercise that same option for McCain.
What this free agency and trade off season has demonstrated is that the agents are harming the game worse than ever and trades are a dicey proposition. Building from within is what made the Braves the top-to-bottom powerhouse they were.
Nearly every Braves superstar was home grown. And as many free agent acquisitions and traded-for players busted as blossomed. Terry Pendleton may indeed be the catalyst of leadership the started the wheels turning. But, our fortunes started to ebb when we traded away players like David Justice.
I am perfectly willing to bring up Tommy Hanson and see what the kid can do.
By Geezer
December 18, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
Fire the goofy smiling Frank “Can’t Make A Trade” Wren - and bring back JS…at least he did not make us the laughing stock of the league.
By Stop Crying
December 18, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
Almost forgot - Don’t sign Smoltz. Here’s a prediction. Wren is feeling desperate. He doesn’t want to offer Smoltz anything but @ 1.5 mil + incentives (correctly so) but he will fold to fan pressure and do something much bigger. He should actually alert Smoltz he no longer fits in Braves plans, but he will not.
By Shawn B
December 18, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
STH you didn’t get kicked off DOB’s blog, it crashed because of too many posts. That’s why so many of us are on here now, seeing if we can crash two in one day :)
And in your honor, STH, let’s start a favorite concerts list on here, we know how much you love music.
By Spud Webb
December 18, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this
Rick Mahler used to “eat up innings” also. He’s about the same as Vasquez. I agree Mark, I think the market for Peavy is coming down to earth and eventually the Braves will land him. I’d much rather see Abrue than Dunn. Dunn’s Dfense isn’t good and his strikeouts are a HUGE. He can hit some bombs though!!!
By Shawn B
December 18, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
J- 3.24 ERA in 2003 for Vazquez I would think would be considered a pretty good year. He was only one game over .500 in W/L, but it’s hard to judge a pitcher by W/L not knowing what the team situation in his starts were(like run support, bullpen support, etc.) That looks like two good years at least, though none of the seasons look like train wrecks just from those stats that were given. Point is, Vazquez is a pretty good 3/4 starter who can eat up innings and keep your bullpen in better shape for late in the season. Flowers was an offensive catcher who was subpar defensively and value would not be nearly as high if he was moved to first base. His value is as high now as it probably will ever be, and he will probably end up as a DH if he makes it to the majors( big if seeing how he has never played above AA ball.)
By Zerevan
December 18, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
Wren is not JS and never will be…!It is whole lot different then when JS took over. We will be re-living 1991 spirit in 2011 season… This team is not going anywhere anytime soon. Build the team from ground up, have some patience and let the young ones play. Bradley is right we should not let Flowers go. I don’t think Wren is getting any respect around town at all. WREN is just like OBAMA accomplish ABSOLUTELY NOTHING….! GO BRAVES
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
People on this blog are friendlier than on DOB’s blog.
There is actually a “clique” of people on that blog, and don’t you dare disagree with them.
Or the “core” members will gang up on you and bully you. That just makes me want to go back again and keep doing what I’m doing.
Oh yeah, back to baseball, Please tell me the Braves let Corky Miller go. He sucks beyond sucking.
By Spud Webb
December 18, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
Ahahahhaha, Corky is Bobby’s new version of Keith Lockhart. CLASSIC. ahhahahhahaa
By Steve
December 18, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this
Granted Raffy is older, but the career OBP remark cracks me up. It’s obvious you are stuck on numbers.
You are telling me you would rather have a guy who gets on base two more times out of every 100 at bats, but once on base is about as mobile as Sid Bream … over a guy who can create havoc on the bases and at the very least is in the pitchers head a little bit? Give me Furcal over Escobar at the plate ANY day.
I am glad we didn’t spend the money, but will anyone really care if we saved money if we finish dead last in the East?
I voted for the youth movement years ago, but the Braves have to realize drafting young high school pitchers and giving them 4 to 5 years to develop rarely works out. They are living on the history of Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz and Avery and not looking at the college game enough. With college players, you get guys who are one or two years away, and much easier to judge talent wise .. aka, nowhere near as risky. Not only that, college baseball is now attracting a much higher percentage of the better players, which two decades ago was not the case.
By drew
December 18, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
if we’ve got all this money to spend then we myswell just go out and try to get adam dunn and sheets..sheets will win as many or more games then those lesser pitchers will…bring smoltz back too..sheets,smoltz,jair,javy….open
By Jerry
December 18, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
Why get anyone. Let the kids come up and make Cox put them in the line-up. I think Milton Bradley would be a big pick up but Cox doesn’t like his attitude. That’s exactly what we need. Cox is afraid someone might come in and spark the Braves to victory. Please make this Coxs’ farwell tour. Please.
Sign Smoltz and bring up Hansen. The only thing we need to do now is sign Bradley and bring up the kids.
I sick of the professional Braves. Its time to get mean and mad.
If you want a second basemen spend the money on Orlando Hudson and move KJ to left. We would be better off then signing Furcal.
Good things happen to those that wait.
By geauxbraves2000
December 18, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
I don’t really think this organization is going down the tubes like some others may.
Peavy was a Towers thing, from what I read Towers kept asking for more.
Burnett didn’t want to bat or run the bases, he wanted to play close to his Baltimore home because his wife doesn’t fly, and the Yankees were going to outbid the Braves no matter what the Braves threw out there IMO.
Furcal, well, I don’t really know what to say in that situation, maybe he really loves LA. I would advise him to go ahead and sell his house in ATL though, he may not be welcomed there anymore. And he may want to wear some ear plugs on his return to Turner.
This team as it is, is probably not going to be any better than a 3rd place team. But, with the right pieces and a couple of career years, they may be able to compete for at least a wildcard.
Geaux Braves!!
By Brian
December 18, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
Hey, O’ Brien kicked me off his blog too!! He’s got a bad temper, and needs some meds or something!! I have a bad temper too, but I try not to take it out on strangers. He got mad when I made fun of his hippy music, and then the final straw with him was when I posted a “racist” comment about Jim Rollins…it was NOT even close to racist, calling him a brotha’! My black friend laughs when I call him brotha’! He calls me cracka’!
By DAP
December 18, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
J You can’t be serious when you tell me 11-15 with a 4.42 ERA or 12-16 with a 4.67 are great stats, can you???
i didnt say that. what you said was easily proven wrong. what i said was admitted to be right by you. to more broadly answer your question, i would rate 2002, 2003, 2005 and 2007 as good seasons for vazquez since 2002. he is what he is, man. an innings eater who will get his share of Ks, and keep you in the game.
and the blog name is DAP. not dag.
By drew
December 18, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this
yea i got kicked off DOB’s blog as well..mark you should post more so i can chat it up
By Brian
December 18, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this
I didn’t want Furcal and his $10 mill. price tage …when he comes to Turner Field, I’ll have a sign that reads, WE DON’T WANT A DRUNK MIDGET ON OUR TEAM ANYWAYS!!
By Jim H.
December 18, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
As I understood it Tyler Flowers’ defensive skills at catcher are very rough and many scouts thought he would never make it to the major leagues as a catcher…so keeping him as a backup catcher on the ML club was not an option as his defense was not good enough He is probably destined to be a 1B/LF/DH type player. The Braves already have a young all-star catcher that isn’t going anywhere, and they also have highly ranked 1B and OF prospects coming up through the minor leagues that are good hitters and better defensively than Flowers – so that made him expendable. I just hope Vazquez proves to be an adequate return on the trade. Time will tell on that.
I agree with some of the earlier posts wondering why we shipped off Pena last season and kept Corky Freakin’ Miller. That was a head scratch’er
By LivininAL
December 18, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Right Mark, Furcal left as a free agent, but he would not have left if Shurholtz had signed him at the beginning of that year as Raffe wanted. We could have had him for all this time for half of what the Dodgers paid for him to sign. I’m not too sad that he did not return, but we do need a legitimate leadoff hitter.
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
Brian I think the O’Brien blog is like a cult. There are a few bloggers on there who think they know more than everybody.
Plus, O’Brien can be a little sarcastic at times too. You just have to be careful even mentioning anything about ethinicity or you will get booted.
People on that blog are uber sensitive.
But I’ll be back when they hang another blog up there.
By bo stephens
December 18, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
Way too much money for Furr-ball! Can’t we get a slugger for $10-12 Mil a year like Adam Dunn? That was as lavish as going 5 years on a pitcher like A.J! We’ll be fine with a Peavy like and a Dunn like hitter!Wren will prevail!-bo
By bo stephens
December 18, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Way too much money for Furr-ball! Can’t we get a slugger for $10-12 Mil a year like Adam Dunn? That was as lavish as going 5 years on a pitcher like A.J! We’ll be fine with a Peavy like and a Dunn like hitter!Wren will prevail!-gordoncountyreal@bellsouth.net
By Brian
December 18, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
WOW, this must be where O’ Brien’s rejects go! That’s kinda funny, but the truth is, he doesn’t want anyone disagreeing with him! I like his blogs and all, but he needs to chill on the fans a little. No wonder he doesn’t show his face in any of the sites like the rest of these AJC writers… but he’s a Braves writer, so I’ll ease up on him for that!
By TheManMike
December 18, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
People - do you just LIKE to wig?
you werent “kicked off” any blog - When too many comments pour in, which is the NORM for DOB blogs, then eventually it crashes. Thats normally why we get a blog a day….Its the only AJC.COM blog that does it. DOB is the man.
Mark, you are as well - but you arent crashing blogs, you know what im saying?
Once AJC.COM IT gets their heads screwed on tight, they will increase the bandwith or something and it’ll just take longer to crash. HA.
GO BRAVOS!
p.s. - Eff Tyler Flowers, Eff Furcal, Eff Burnett, Eff them all. We are gonabe just fine - you’ll watch.
By Jim H.
December 18, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
Yeah, there are a lot of baseball “Al Bundys on DOB’s blog. You know…reliving their high school glory days when they played baseball and thinking they know everything that goes on behind the scenes with the Braves. It’s humorous to read sometimes though.
By monty
December 18, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
If Raffy had really wanted to come back and play Boobby ball he would have. If Raffys not coming means Yunel and Kelly stay I’m all for it. Yunel may have some issues he needs to work through mentally but he’s a gamer. Kelly is becoming a very fine hitter. We do need another big bat and we still need another decent pitcher, but we didn’t have to have Raffy.
By DTB
December 18, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
The ideal off-season may have slipped through the free agent “Pandora’s Box”, but their are still a lot of things to provide optimism for ‘09. Smoltz is capable of clearing the surgery hurdle and Glavine will be determined to go out a winner. Experience can be more important than age(Moyer, Maddux, Johnson). Their presence is invaluable if they prove healthy. I hope the Braves resign them both, but the age/health factor is always a concern. The bullpen could special, provided Moylan and Soriano return to form and Ohman is resigned. With those three and Gonzalez in place Boyer, Acosta and Bennett should prove more effective. (My only regret on this front is not taking a fairly inexpensive gamble on Hampton as he showed great promise the last month. If he gets run support, I expect him to be comeback player of the year.) Don’t forget, ‘08 was the first full year as a starter for Jurrjens and Campillo. Campillo will have all spring to prepare to be a starter if necessary. Smoltz, Jurrjens, Vasquez, Glavine and Campillo is not a bad rotation. If they prove healthy it would provide a Triple-A rotation of Hanson, Morton, Redmond, Parr, Reyes with possibly James, Medlen or Lerew. A pick-up of Sheets, Perez, Garland or Penny might help solidify the rotation. Two of these might even be possible. Enough about pitching! Position wise the Braves are in pretty good shape. Kotchman should provide much more offensively and play good defense. If Johnson is a 20-25 homer guy as some suggest, you could still move him to LF and play Prado at second. If not a power bat in left would help. I fully expext Francouer to have a big year. A line-up of
1) Anderson CF 2) Escobar SS 3) Jones 3B 4) Francouer RF 5) McCann C 6) Kotchman 1B 7) Prado 2B 8) Johnson LFis tolerable. Average and OBP should be good, but some POP would help. That still leaves Schafer, Blanco, Infante, Diaz and possibly Norton on the bech. Some could be used in a trade along with some decent, but not untouchable minor league prospects. There are some attractive moves possible, but let’s not bet panic. That is if you are a true BRAVES FAN. Don’t forget the energy excitement and fun the young guys provided in ‘05.
By TURTSNAP
December 18, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
Mark, never fear with the trade of Flowers…. we have David Ross now as our backup C. A career .222 hitter, thats one helluva upgrade from the Corkster :O)
By Brian
December 18, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
DixieDog, “cult” seems to be a fair word to describe some of them, for sure! But, like you say, ethinicity is a touchy subject, which I understand. However, when 90% of the people are dogging on a guy(Rollins), you can get carried away and say something you probably shouldn’t have said. When someone’s typing something, it can come across totally different than how you mean it sometimes. But anyways…
By drew
December 18, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
im just wondering when we will finally make another move this seems like forever..we are not having the best of luck this offseason..there r still alot of guys out there and a long offseason ahead..wonder if we will get outbid by the NATIONALS of all teams if we get in on dunn
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Mark, I can certainly understand why you didn’t want to trade Tyler Flowers.They already have traded Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Branyan Pena, and Max Ramirez, if McCann were to suffer major injury, they’re screwed. I mean who is left Clint Sammons, and Corky Miller. At least they made a good move by signing David Ross. It was probably smart to trade Flowers when his trade value was high.
By Howie
December 18, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Good column Mark!! I’ll bet if we researched a little we’d find that Furcal and Bill Parcells have the same agent.. Ha..Thank goodness!!!I’m for youth all the way… We still have one of the better farm systems in baseball…Look what Tampa Bay did last year…We have enough infielders anyway…It would be good to pick up another starter and I expect FW will….Giveem’ Hell Braves!!!!
By Brian
December 18, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
TheManMike, when you try and post a comment and it goes straight to a page that reads something like, You are not allowed to post comments, I guess that means get the f—- outta here, cause I don’t want you here..PERIOD!!
By Stephen
December 18, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
Missing Furcal was a MISTAKE. I understand the author and respondent’s reaction, but conservative estimates had Raffy underpriced at 10 million a year, so we missed out on a chance to get a player who was worth at least a fair deal more than we’d be paying him. Read fangraphs.com if you want to actually understand baseball and evaluate these decisions instead of being a message board emotional-acting uninformed fan. Peace.
By Howie
December 18, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
To Jim H… posted 1:41 Not only has Wren’s offseason become a lark, some of his moves are Cardinal sins….You say he came from the Orioles and not the Blue Jays???
By Howie
December 18, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
To Jim H… posted 1:41 Not only has Wren’s offseason become a lark, some of his moves are Cardinal sins….You say he came from the Orioles and not the Blue Jays???
By Brian
December 18, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
Wren needs to realize that, unless he has a trade working for a top starter/hitter, he probably should sign a guaranteed 35-40 HR man in Dunn, and be done with that part! I know Sheets is a major gamble, but so was Mr. glass himself Burnett! 3 years of Sheets is scary, but worth it in my eyes. He’s better and cheaper than Lowe, and we have guys that could feel in if, God forbid, he gets taken out with another injury. Jurrjens/Vazquez(yuk, nevermind), Smoltz/ Hudson when he comes back.
By the way, the DOB folks, give it up on Greinke! Their not trading him for anything less than Escobar/Morton/Schafer/and another good prospect. We’re obviously not trading Escobar now, and KJ has way less value, so I say for Wren to go the FA route.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
Me, I’d much rather be a message board emotional-acting uninformed fan that someone who reads “fangraphs.com.”
But maybe that’s just me.
By Brian
December 18, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
Bradley, are you saying DOB reads “fangraphs.com”-whatever that is?
By Brian
December 18, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
I think MLB should take the season off and recoup those salaries for a season. Come back in 2010 and split the league in two; MLB 1 and MLB 2 with a single table division for both leagues. The league gets separated at the mid point of the 2010 season after everyone has played everyone the same amount of games. The teams in the middle down get put in MLB 2 and the rest stay in MLB 1. At the end of the season the bottom four teams get relegated to MLB 2 and the top 4 from MLB 2 get promoted. That would make the sport more legit and interesting from day 1 to the very last day of the season. As it stands now, its next to cricket as the most boring sport ever to watch live or on tv. Add a much lower salary cap, out for season if you fail a drug test, drug test every week, pitchers must hit, no dh, and only the top 2 teams are guaranteed a playoff spot and the next 6 make the final spots for the playoffs. MLB 2 the top two automatically get promoted to MLB 1 and the next 4 go into a playoff format for the final two spots. If MLB doesn’t make changes the league will continue to be extremely boring and very dull. Also, everyone on the team has to be fit (like the majority of real professional athletes are)!
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
I think Wren needs to sign Bobby Abreu to 3yrs 36 million, also Kawakami to 3 yrs 23 million(he already has a 3yr 21 million offer from BOS), John Smoltz to a 1yr 3.5 million + incentives=5million, Greg Norton to a 1yr 1.85million, Tom Glavine to a 1yr 2million + incentives=3 million, and Will Ohman to 3 yrs 11 million= 33 million + Javier Vazques(2yrs 23million) and David Ross(2 yrs 3million)= 46 million.
They definitely have the funds(45-48 million), will Frank Wren use them?
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
Goodness no. That was in reference to Stephen’s post of 3:02 p.m.
I don’t know what Dave reads. I do remember seeing him with a copy of Cormac McCarthy’s “Blood Meridian” at the communal AJC spring training house two years ago. Great book.
By Alpharetta Fan
December 18, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
Absolutely right! We gave up too much for Tex when we should have been going young, and we’re paying the price. Furcal will only play about 100 games per season. If Frenchy gets his swing back, we’ll be fine with position players. Lets bring up some younger pitchers and get ready for 2010.
By drew
December 18, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
hey mark, its the pens fan from PA..who wins tonight? we’ve been struggling this month,fluery is back finally
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Pretty hard to pick the Thrash over anybody, Drew. The Penguins might have been struggling this month, but our little team has been struggling pretty much forever. Check out esteemed colleague Mike Knobler’s blog for the latest in Thrasher chat.
By tim
December 18, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
Raffy you better expect the first pitch you see from us in your earhole! Thats what any other team with a winning attitude would do! The jury is out if Wren and co. will limit themselves to saying “thats not fair” step up Braves and be a man.
By tim
December 18, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
Raffy you better expect the first pitch you see from us in your earhole! Thats what any other team with a winning attitude would do! The jury is out if Wren and co. will limit themselves to saying “thats not fair” on 680 ….step up Braves and be a man.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
December 18, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
Yo Bradley, Rafael Furcal aside, thanks for pointing out the non-necessity of trading Tyler Flowers for Javier Vasquez. The Braves could have just as easily picked up an inning eater in Jon Garland, Randy Wolfe or some other .500 pitcher without trading prospects.
David Ross was a nice pick up. Frank Wren got this one right.
Now, for the one subject that Frank Wren and Bobby Cox seemingly do not have the guts to address.
Chipper Jones.
The man has to be traded. Folks, we ain’t gonna sniff the playoffs anywhere except in the dust left behind from the Phillies and Mets. The Braves will have to eventually face the reality of dumping Chipper right before the July 31st trading deadline. Why not go ahead and do it now, Atlanta can ask for more young talent in trade for one full season of Chipper Jones.
Chipper has to go, irregardless of his ten and five trade rights and he knows it. Hoss wants to see the playoffs again and that won’t happen with the Braves anytime soon.
I mean, c’mon, I am the only one who remembers how it all began in 1991? with astute drafts, player development, defense and young pitching. And that Doyle Alexander (veteran) for John Smoltz (rookie) trade turned out pretty good too.
EARTH to Wren and Cox, the win now philosophy doesn’t hold water. It’s time to pull the DAMN PLUG and rebuild, just like the Braves did back during the late nineteen - eighties.
By drew
December 18, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
any chance we can pry that star winger away from you guys? Last i heard they werent going to deal him
By Bartman
December 18, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Bradley! The point is being missed! The fact remains that all the deals that Wren has tried land has fallen apart. With of course, the exception of landing Vasquez. Now Flowers may end up flopping and Vasquez may end up winning 18-20 games…doubt it but… The thought there is, that Flowers was a highly sought after prospect and Vasquez has been a mediocre pitcher. Read the White Sox press releases! They are SO happy to be rid of Vasquez..they would have taken a couple of mid level prospects for him. So, wheather we think not getting Furcal is a good thing or not, the fact remains, the deals are NOT getting finished. Something is wrong there
I just heard that Wren will no longer deal with Furcals agent going forward. Doesn’t Escobar have the same agent??? great….
By thr2
December 18, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
I absolutely agree. I did not want Raffy back. Escobar-Johnson has been a good combo and turned some great plays. Yunnel for Peavey? No thanks either. Yunnel is a good defensive player and can hit. Develop the farm system. Remember people like Chipper, Glavive, Justice, Lemke to name a few all came from there. Do that instead of renting 1 year wonders and giving up oh say, Adam Wainwright or Salty.
By Threadkiller
December 18, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this
Can we please sign Adam Dunn now!! As of today, 40 home runs and 100 rbi’s look pretty darn good from where i’m sitting!!
By Gray Mule
December 18, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
He got an extra $3M from the Dodgers. They get to keep him. Braves got out of their offer. Everyone should be happy with the way this one turned out. Quit giving away our young players. Sign free agents or grow your own. Trade major league players you don’t need or want for those you do, if possible.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Thanks, Coach. But I think it would be hard to trade Chipper because of his age and his contract. As for the rest of your post, I absolutely agree.
By DAP
December 18, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
coach The Braves could have just as easily picked up an inning eater in Jon Garland, Randy Wolfe or some other .500 pitcher without trading prospects.
wolf and garland are innings eaters, but they arent nearly as good as vazquez. garland is just terrible compared to vazquez. check the BAA, Ks, ect. Wolf is better but vazqyez’s strikeouts set him apart.
did you know with 200 Ks last year, vazquez comes in at #9 in the majors in Ks? thats only 6 Ks behind roy halliday.
on the surface vazquez’s stats dont look great, but with the ability to stike guys out like that, i think he has the potential to have a 2007 kind of year at any time. (15-8 3.74 ERA 213 Ks)
By BamaBrave
December 18, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
Friday, July 31st, 7:35pm: First pitch - John Smoltz fires a high, tight 93mph four-seamer just under Furcal’s chin, knocking him to the ground. Second pitch - Furcal laces a ball foul, screaming over the Dodger dugout, nailing Paul Kinzer squarely in the crotch as he pays for a beer.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
Drew, you’re talking about Ilya Kovalchuk, and you’re right: The Thrashers say he isn’t on the market. Me, I think he should be.
By drew
December 18, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
without another good hitter we wont get enough run support for any of our pitchers to win games so it doesnt really matter ..
By Ronald Millsaps
December 18, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
While I was disappointed to learn that Atlanta had not signed Furcal after all (perhaps this blog is too music-oriented), if he did manipulate the Braves for a better offer from L.A., I don’t want him.
Josh Anderson should do very well at leadoff.
I’d re-sign John Smoltz and Tom Glavine and pursue Adam Dunn and maybe Juan Cruz.
Blaine Boyer might be the biggest surprise of 2009.
By TURTSNAP
December 18, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
Coach, seems to me the whole ‘91 turn hinged on one Terry Pendleton, Sid Bream, Rafael Belliard and Senore Smoke (Juan Berenguer offseason moves, in addition to the youth movement you mention.
By mikey
December 18, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
So O’Brien is out until January 3rd? So no new blogs till then? What the heck is that about?
as far as the Braves go, Wren needs to take the weekend off and start fresh on Monday. Oh wait, Wednesday is Christmas Eve, so it looks like he’ll have to make a move sooner than that. He could probably wait until Jan. 15th or something like that, which he’ll probably do, but i don’t think as many free agents will be around by then. I think he should sign Pat Burrell and Ben Sheets.
By keef
December 18, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Is it my imagination or: 1.) superstars no longer consider the Braves a viable team for short OR long term success
2.) we only seem to be going for players with “a medical record a mile long” with the potential for another Hamptonian INJURY salary steal.
3.) we haven’t now or in the past had the cash for CC or Santana, AROD, TEX… why? I thought “the current powers” held a press conference last year gloating that the Braves will get whatever cash the team needs “without any specific number or payroll ceiling?” Terry McGuirk why are you hiding now that Liberty Media has screwed us?
By Interested fan
December 18, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Mark, Break it gently to Terence Moore that while he was delivering his impassioned sermon to the choir on behalf of supplicant Furcal the wine and supplicant disappeared. So did the choir.
By Opie South
December 18, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
The Braves have a set good infield, good catcher, good bullpen and a couple of good starting pitchers. They are not bad enough to give away all the promising youn players. Keep them. Sign one free agent outfielder like Dunn and one pitcher like Wolf or Garland for one year to get to prospects. Remember some of the regulars are young and can improve. That improvement has not been counted in discussions. If Anderson is in center and given a chance with the addition of two players I think we are not that bad. No need to panic,
By Random
December 18, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
Mr Bradley, Tsu Yuan Nieh, Tami, Tron5000, Brian, Howie from Poughkeepsie, Save the Future!, J, DAP (!!!), Shawn B, Jim H., et al—
To get this “fookie” taste out of our mouths, why don’t we take another look at one thing at least that did not go wrong this off-season (imo).
Below are some excerpts from Christina Kahrl’s analysis of the JVazquez/TFlowers (et al) trade, from Baseball Prospectus, here — “A Peach of a Deal”.
Braves Acquired RHP Javier Vazquez and LHP Boone Logan from the White Sox for C-R Tyler Flowers, SS-R Brent Lillibridge, 3B-R Jon Gilmore, and LHP Santos Rodriguez.
The Braves haven’t been to the playoffs since 2005, not for lack of trying. In that time, regearing the lineup with younger, better parts continued as smoothly as before, with prospects like Brian McCann, Kelly Johnson, Yunel Escobar, and seemingly Jeff Francouer all successfully integrated. Think about that for a second: three quality up-the-middle regulars, with Jordan Schafer and Gorkys Hernandez on the way up to potentially complete the set. Add that sort of good stuff to Chipper Jones on one corner or another, and you have a lineup that ought to be part of a contender. Same old Braves, right?
The problem’s been the team’s pitching. However, last year’s reunion rotation didn’t solve all their problems, nor did the recent abandonment of what had been a decades-long experience with the fundamental replaceability of most relief pitching. Keeping the rotation going with thirtysomethings hasn’t really worked out so well in the last several seasons: eventually, old men break down or peter out. Mike Hampton was less than what they needed, and then he wasn’t even that the last four years. John Smoltz got old, Tim Hudson’s busted, and bringing back Tom Glavine proved as lamentable in practice as it appeared at first blush. Anticipated retread successes, another regular feature in the glory days, with John Thomson and Jorge Sosa didn’t work out. Home-grown hurler Chuck James disappeared under a welter of walks and homers before breaking down. Nabbing Jair Jurrjens from the Tigers and Jorge Campillo off the rejects pile kept things going nicely last season, but that did not a rotation make, and the Braves’ unit finished 11th in the league in SNLVA Rate, 12th in Expected Wins, and next to last in starter innings pitched in 2008.
So yeah, they need starting pitching. They also have a gaggle of desireable prospects, and apparently they still want to give this contending thing a shot, rather than curl up for a year and wait for the kids. Like a lot of teams, the Braves aren’t affording themselves the time to rebuild, and they instead focus on retooling. That can mean making space for the kids once they come, but it also means some more of the same, getting somebody else’s thirtysomething starter, somebody already under contractual control. Landing Vazquez is just the latest iteration of this particular play, and while I like the deal, it’s important to recognize that this is an act of repetition to keep this club hanging around an 80-win talent level that automatically puts you in the playoff picture in the senior circuit.
Of himself, Vazquez is a decent enough pickup, a mid-rotation starter who’s flirted with being slightly more than that at times. Last season’s .504 SNLVA Rate doesn’t sound great, rating 91st among all big-league starters with 100 IP, a big drop from his 2007 mark of .566, but of a piece with his 2006 mark of .500. Arguments that he’ll be happier and perhaps more dominant in the NL have to go back to his Expos days more than five years ago, and conveniently overlook that he was as adequate as ever in his season with the Snakes in 2005 (.531), which wasn’t all that much better than his much-lamented season with the Yankees in ‘04 (.520). It’s more important to accept that his range is as a guy who’ll give you 30 starts or more, and give you solid performance, not dominance. That’s entirely acceptable, of course, especially when the alternative might be a call to a tanned, rested, and forever unready Rick Behenna.
The change of leagues is going to help him of course, but not really because getting out of the Cell is going to make a big difference for him—in his three seasons as a White Sock, he allowed 4.4 R/9 against 4.9 R/9 on the road. No, what’s going to make a difference for Vazquez is his problem with getting through the sixth inning, which has been especially tough for Vazquez in recent seasons. As a matter of timing, that’s usually around when a starting pitcher is seeing the heart of the order the third time, but in the NL, with the pitcher’s slot generating easier outs, that might happen a little later in an individual start. If Vazquez’s problem is a combination of the best hitters getting a good look at him and running out of gas around his 90th pitch, that can be mitigated a bit by a manager more inclined to recognize the need to hook him while the hooking’s good, instead of a skipper who dares you to finish what you started, and then gets understandably cranky when you predictably don’t. Assuming the exchange of the pitcher for the DH helps avoid his past problems of hitting the wall against a lineup’s best the third time through, Vazquez could wind up with a superficially excellent-seeming season if Bobby Cox hooks him after six innings. Cox wouldn’t have to be obvious about it and insult Vazquez’s dignity—NL skippers always have pinch-hitting and double-switch possibilities to bring into play—and Vazquez wouldn’t really be a radically different pitcher. He’d simply be given the advantage of being lifted before he was pushed into too many of those unhappy third at-bats against the people who can hurt him.
The financial element of this deal shouldn’t be underrated. While Vazquez isn’t cheap—$23 million over 2009 and 2010—put that money in the context of the current market. You simply can’t get a known quantity like Vazquez for a two-year deal from among this winter’s free agents. Put this move up against spending more over three or four years for some mid-market rotation regular, and this move comes across as especially inspired as an adaptation to what little time the Braves have left to run as Chipper Jones’ ballclub. If they can’t make a better play at contention in 2009 than they have the last three years, it won’t be a matter of turning the page—it will have already been turned and glued shut.
Finally, on the most fundamental level you have to credit the Braves for what this deal boils down to in terms of impact at the big-league level: they got a solid mid-rotation starter, and they didn’t have to give up any of their better prospects in the deal. Sure, skip putting Jason Heyward or Tommy Hanson into an exchange of this nature, but they didn’t even have to deal from their second rank, the guys like Jordan Schafer and Gorkys Hernandez, and this despite the fact that they’re making a trade with a team that needs a center fielder? Admittedly, if the Sox had gotten Hernandez or Schafer, that would have been a real coup, but I don’t mean to beat up on Kenny Williams in this space—he did apparently try to get them, and he didn’t. The Braves were willing to deal from depth in prospects and take on salary, and working with an organization that could use the salary space and the talent. From Frank Wren on down, the Braves deserve credit in targeting Vazquez—rarely in Ozzie Guillen’s favor for any great length of time—and getting him relatively reasonably with prospects they could afford to trade away.
As for getting Logan, I guess I’m of two minds on the subject. He’s a lefty who cooks with gas, but he’s also acquired a rep as a guy not especially gifted with a lot of aptitude. Maybe Roger McDowell will reach him where another good pitching coach, Don Cooper, apparently struggled, but I’m reluctant to get as enthusiastic about adding Logan as I was yesterday about the organization’s grabbing Eric O’Flaherty on waivers. If I had to put O’Flaherty, Logan, and Jeff Ridgway in some particular order, that would be it, and it’s nice that all of them have better than average velocity for southpaws. While I doubt that Emperor Charles V was talking about lefty relief help when he picked Plus ultra as his motto, I guess the Braves can take some satisfaction in achieving Redundancy plus ultra.
(Fair Use is Permitted: Fair use of copyrighted material includes the use of protected materials for noncommercial purposes such as research, peer review, commentary and news reporting.)
PS: 1138 comments will bring any (AJC) blog down.
By Bartman
December 18, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this
Coach. I do agree, unfortunately, that Chipper should be moved. For his good and the Braves. I KNOW the Rays would love to plug him in and they have some GREAT arms they can move. I wouldn’t mind hanging on to Smotlz to help tutor but…he needs another shot at a title too. In 1991, we had free agent pickups too. Lonnie Smith, TP, Belliard and Bream were very important parts. It wasn’t all farm guys.
By raymond
December 18, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
Does anyone know what the Braves ARE doing? Why don’t we have any interest in Dunn or Burrell?
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
December 18, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
DAP, just remember, you’re the one defending Javier Vasquez. Not I.
By Lifelong Hawks Fan
December 18, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Mark, Vazquez may have a barely sub .500 career mark, but please check out the records of the teams that he played for. It’s 863-920 combined. That seems about par for the team course. I think he’ll give us what we need in a #3 for now. Where’s the #1 or #2? Good question. But let’s be fair to Vazquez. He’s thrown at least 198 innings for 9 straight years while having a 4.05 ERA during that span and averaging a strikeout per inning and less than two walkes per 9 innings. That’s not too bad. I’ll take it. Not exciting, but extremely consistent.
As for Furcal, I wasn’t huge on bringing him back. But we most assuredly need a spark at the top of the lineup.
By Efrim
December 18, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
Check out this SI.com article from Jon Heyman:
http://www.fannation.com/siblogs/hotstove/posts/33741?eref=fromSI
Sounds like Wren is never going to deal with Tellem or Kinzer’s agency ever again.
By DAP
December 18, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
keep in min that the braves got boone logan in the vazquez deal as well, effectively making will ohman expendable, saving the braves at least $8mil.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this
OK, so I got curious. I went to Fangraphs.com, and on the home page I found these abbreviations: FIP, UZR, WAR and BABIP. I have no idea what any of those might be.
By Shawn B
December 18, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
Random- good find there for a take on the Vazquez deal. I was happy when the deal was announced that one of the top tier prospects was not involved. Flowers to me was one of the prospects that needed to be used to make a deal this offseason because I don’t believe his value will ever be higher than it is right now. May be wrong on that, but he’s a long way from the big leagues, probably would have never fit into the Braves plans, and the Braves got a good, quality starter (IMO) in return for him and some lower rated prospects (like Lillibridge, who I think is a AAAA player, not a major leaguer)
By mr baseball
December 18, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
One question that I don’t think is addressed is exactly why Wren attempted to sign Furcal.
The Braves already have a cheap, quality SS. Either Furcal was going to have to move to 2B or Escobar was, unless he was traded. That would have left the Braves up the creek in the event Furcal’s back injury took him out of the lineup for an extended period.
Plus, KJ would have to have been moved to a position he is less comfortable in than the one he’s currently playing. The Braves need a cleanup hitter, not a leadoff hitter. The move made no sense unless it was a prelude to a trade, and given the huge disparity in salary between Yunel and the DUI ingrate, it was a huge waste of $ in any event.
One question some of us here on the blog would appreciate an answer to is why the Braves evidently have no interest in Adam Dunn (according to the AJC’s all-knowing beat writer). Granted, Dunn is far from an ideal addition, but given the circumstances, he fits the bill of a power hitter to protect Chipper in the lineup.
Dunn strikes out a lot, doesn’t hit for an average and is a defensive liability. But Fred McGriff & Ryan Klesko were in the same ballpark with him, and the Braves won a World Series with both in the starting lineup.
As a beat writer, O’Brien’s job is to find out what’s going on. Columnists are more interested in the why. Mark, please do a favor for those of us who have some interest in this team and are puzzled about Wren’s attempted moves.
Why are they evidently intent on trading Escobar? Given the offensive needs, why Furcal and not Dunn or Milton Bradley? If the answer to either question is Bobby Cox, maybe it’s time for one of you guys with a soapbox at the AJC to advocate that the Braves need a cleanup hitter more than they need a manager who is preventing the team from doing what needs to be done if they hope to have even a remote chance of contending next yesr.
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
I just wish we had more money to throw around.
Liberty Media has to be doing pretty good in their business. I really don’t know. I don’t follow the stock market or anything.
Money talks. And when money talks, baseball players listen.
I was watching Sportscenter today around lunchtime and the Yankees were having a press conference announcing C.C. and A.J. as the new Yankees.
I wanted to throw up. It wasn’t because I was diappointed that we didn’t get Burnett.
It’s because whatever motion the Yankees make has to be national headline news. Its ridicoulus(sp?)!
Baseball needs a salary cap. If that happens, then the Yankees will be just like every other team in MLB. It’ll be a level playing field.
And Scott Borass will be out of a job.
By Opie South
December 18, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
Josh Anderson is your leadoff hitter if Bobby will give him a fair chance. The current Braves may surpise folks. Who thought the Falcons would be 9-5 and in the playoff hunt? Braves don’t need that much and staying away from injuries would surely help.
By lfp6
December 18, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
I’m quite glad myself that this signing didn’t happen. The Braves need to invest in its youth.
As for pitching, who cares about Peavy. If Hanson is as good as he should be, put HIM into the rotation, period. We DO have three slots open anyway.
As for Smoltzie, we need to keep him, but he needs to be in the bullpen; his body isnt able to withstand the rigors of a full season, imo.
By Navigator
December 18, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
Usually, when a franchise starts in a downward path, you look at the ownership, and the Braves are a case book for bad ownership. When Teddy gave up ownership, the new owners milked the franchise until the quality dropped. Then they sold the Braves to, I don’t even know who. The new owners aren’t willing to rebuild the farm system, or invest in top quality free agents. In other words, we are back to the beginning time when the Braves first arrived. I don’t think many of us will be around to see the Braves rejuvenated in another 30 years.
By Shawn B
December 18, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
Efrim-couldn’t get that link to work, but I found what you were referring to. Tough, risky stance by the Braves, but I commend them for it if what Wren is claiming is true.
Try this link and see if it works:
http://www.fannation.com/siblogs/hotstove/posts/33741
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
Hey just read Oliver Perez wants 14 million per year for 5 yrs. jajaja.
SI.com’s Jon Heyman believes the Mets and free agent Oliver Perez are too far apart in negotiations for a deal to be reached. Heyman lists the Brewers, Dodgers, Reds and perhaps the Mariners as potential suitors for Perez. He’s believed to want $14 million per season for five years.
coach, Jon Garland is a type A FA, looking for at least 10 million per year, and has an ERA of 4.90 giving up 237 hits, and only striking out only 90. It’s like signing Livan Hernandez. His fastball is now barely reaching 88, Javy Vazques reaches 93-96mph. Vazques struck out 200 batters, and in his first 30 starts he had a 12-13 record with a 4.13 ERA, that’s much better than Jon Garland, and a little bit better than Randy Wolf. If Vazques were a FA right now, only Ben Sheets, Derek Lowe, and Andy Pettitte are better.
By Efrim
December 18, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
mr baseball
I am pretty sure Wren’s plans were to sign Furcal to play second base, move Kelly Johnson to left field, and keep Yunel Escobar at shortstop. If a team approached him for either Escobar or Johnson, then he would listen, but have more leverage in deals because he wouldn’t HAVE to trade either of them.
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this
Hey just read Oliver Perez wants 14 million per year for 5 yrs. jajaja.
SI.com’s Jon Heyman believes the Mets and free agent Oliver Perez are too far apart in negotiations for a deal to be reached. Heyman lists the Brewers, Dodgers, Reds and perhaps the Mariners as potential suitors for Perez. He’s believed to want $14 million per season for five years.
coach, Jon Garland is a type A FA, looking for at least 10 million per year, and has an ERA of 4.90 giving up 237 hits, and only striking out only 90. It’s like signing Livan Hernandez. His fastball is now barely reaching 88, Javy Vazques reaches 93-96mph. Vazques struck out 200 batters, and in his first 30 starts he had a 12-13 record with a 4.13 ERA, that’s much better than Jon Garland, and a little bit better than Randy Wolf. If Vazques were a FA right now, only Ben Sheets, Derek Lowe, and Andy Pettitte are better.
By Shawn B
December 18, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
don’t know why it keeps changing the link when you put it up. those backslashes from blogs to 33741 should be underlines.
By DAP
December 18, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
coach DAP, just remember, you’re the one defending Javier Vasquez. Not I.
well, not exactly. im more defending the trade. i think it was a good one. dealt from a position of strength to adequately (not spectacularly) address a need (two, actually), and it didnt affect the ML club at all. to me, thats good. also, responding to your post, i think vazquez is a better choice than wolf and especially garland. we will have to wait and see what those guys sign for to see if we got a good deal on vazquez’s contract.
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
Mark, I think BAIP(means batting average per inning), but I’m not sure. I’d rank Javier Vazques him #60(including John Smoltz, Paul Maholm, Aaron Harang, and Pelfrey) of 150 or more SP’s(30 teams with 5 man rotations).
By Random
December 18, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
And here are Ms Kahrl’s comments on Tyler Flowers from Baseball Prospectus, op cit:
Flowers is the obvious prize, though his glove work behind the dish is questionable enough that he’s no sure thing. Which is not to say this is a bad pack, it’s just that it’s comprised of disparate parts, players on different trajectories moving at different speeds who might answer different needs at different times. Lillibridge can run and he can handle short well enough, but he was also highly overrated after a batting average-inflated 2006 season, and there’s a pretty good chance he’s just a utility player who allows the Sox to wean themselves from the Age of Ozuna once and for all. He’s not a bad add, but he’s also probably not a starting shortstop that lets the Sox move Alexei Ramirez to third instead of short, which means the Ramirez-at-short experiment isn’t being ended before it gets started. Lillibridge also doesn’t pose much danger for Chris Getz at second. So, he’s filler.
…
Which brings us back to the player who has to make this deal really work, Flowers. Getting a top catching prospect is a good idea in the abstract, and it’s interesting (in light of all the attention) that Kenny Williams managed to pull it off with a team that wasn’t the Rangers. What makes him a prospect is that he’s a catcher who hits, and heading into what will be his age-23 season, he’s also ready for Double-A, which puts him into the range of possibilities as far as arriving at the end of ‘09 if that goes really well, and perhaps more reasonably 2010. (Which matters, in light of the club’s financial commitment to A.J. Pierzynski through that very season.) He put the hurt on the Carolina League as something more than just a Three True Outcomes type, thwacking 32 doubles from a .288 clip while also delivering 200 walks and strikeouts in 520 PA (split almost evenly, 98 walks and 102 whiffs). While everyone’s worked up over his exceptional AFL performance, I wouldn’t get worked up over the numbers there—I still have that James Mouton hangover to live down—as much as they represent a continuation of his second-half breakout for Myrtle Beach, hitting .328/.454/.586 after the league’s all-star break. If you want to believe that might make him the new Piazza, you can be forgiven that—it’s clear that he’s breaking out, and might climb the ladder fast.
…
To recap, I can accept a big bet on Flowers being something at the plate because of the development curve, even while I think that taking the risk that he could pan out at catcher is pretty speculative. Basically, the bat could play at first and DH, and in an organization employing Jim Thome for one more year and Paul Konerko for two, that has value to the Sox even if he doesn’t pan out at catcher. Gilmore and Rodriguez are long-term markers, guys we won’t really know whether the tools translate into high confidence-level projectable results for another couple of years, but both are worth having. Lillibridge might have the most name recognition; you’ll get over that.
(Fair Use is Permitted: Fair use of copyrighted material includes the use of protected materials for noncommercial purposes such as research, peer review, commentary and news reporting.)
By Kenneth Simpson
December 18, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
I agree with you 100%. I didn’t like the idea when it was first reported that the braves had signed him and was just waiting on the physical. He has a bad back and you just don’t get over a bad back. He may have played well with a one year contract full of incentives but since he got 4 years basically just see how he performs. I also agree with you that they gave Flowers away. I think that trade and the one for Tex was STUPID. They are both going to come back and haunt the braves and I can’t wait. I hope CC and AJ both flop for the yankees too. They were stupid to give a big fat lefthanded pitcher that much money to pitch and AJ had one good year and see what he got. They might eventually buy a pennant since they try every year but I can’t wait for these to signings to backfire on them. I think Furcal and his agent both can go jump in a lake. They led the braves on and got what he wanted from the Dodgers and now they are trying to lie out of it. I hope the fans in Atlanta (if there are any) to boo him to death when LA comes to town. Escobar is by far the best shortstop now anyway. Furcal might have had it but he does not now and with his bad back he is too much of a risk. GOOD RIDDANCE.
By Hillbilly Deluxe
December 18, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
I’m not really a Braves fan but if I were in their shoes I wouldn’t worry so much about trying to contend in 2009. I’d try to go young and build a base for a team that could contend for a long time.
By CALL MY AGENT......
December 18, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
DUNN BURELL AL DH s.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
I don’t know for certain that the Braves are bent on trading Yunel Escobar, but his name keeps coming up in trade talk, which tends to be an indication of something. And if that means they’ve soured on him — certainly we on the periphery can make that logistical leap — I for one don’t know why. I for one wouldn’t have soured on him.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
I don’t know for certain that the Braves are bent on trading Yunel Escobar, but his name keeps coming up in trade talk, which tends to be an indication of something. And if that means they’ve soured on him — certainly we on the periphery can make that logistical leap — I for one don’t know why. I for one wouldn’t have soured on him.
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
The Twins checked back in on Yunel Escobar’s availability when the Braves appeared to have Rafael Furcal signed, but didn’t get very far. It’s interesting to see that the Twins are still in the shortstop market after spending $8.5 million on Nick Punto. Besides Escobar, they’re also still interested in J.J. Hardy. Still, they’ll probably have to settle for a third baseman if they add another infielder.
Scott Baker for Yunel Escobar and a prospect would have been great. But that wont have a chance of happening without Furcal.
By letthemhearit
December 18, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
Be sure to thank Wasserman Media Group for all the backstabbing they did trying to get Furcal to Atlanta at ManagementGeneral@wmgllc.com.
By DAP
December 18, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this
I think BAIP(means batting average per inning), but I’m not sure.
its actaully BABIP which means batting average of balls in play. it only counts the times you hit the ball. those other ones i dont know.
By Shawn B
December 18, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
Here is the article from John Heynman on SI.com:
*Braves general manager Frank Wren said today the Braves have notified the baseball agency that represents Rafael Furcal that they intend never to do business with them again.
The Braves thought they had a deal earlier this week to bring the star shortstop back to Atlanta, where he began his career, before Furcal decided to stay with the Dodgers for virtually the same terms. Wren said that Braves president John Schuerholz called Arn Tellem, who heads the baseball division of the Wasserman Media Group, to inform Tellem that the Braves will no longer enter into negotiations with them regarding baseball clients.
“We don’t have any intention of doing business with them, and they’ve been notified of that,” Wren told SI.com this afternoon.
Reminded that Tellem’s group of agents — which includes well-established veterans such as Tom Reich, Adam Katz and Paul Kinzer — is one of the biggest in baseball and represents many star players (including Francisco Rodriguez, Carlos Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi and many more players), Wren responded, “When you can’t trust who you’re doing business with, you can’t do business with them. It’s plain and simple.”
Tellem didn’t immediately return SI.com’s phone call seeking comment.
The Furcal negotiations were anything but simple, and ended with Furcal returning to the Dodgers for basically the same $30-million, three-year deal the Braves believe he’d agreed to with them.
As Wren tells it, he and Kinzer, Furcal’s main rep, negotiated the terms over several calls Monday night, and after Kinzer told Wren that if he raised the base a little, they’d be able to make a deal, Wren did just that. Kinzer then told him “I think we’re good,” but still explained he had to take it to Furcal.
Sometime later, there was a message on Wren’s voicemail with Kinzer saying, “We’re good. Raffy’s excited. Send me the term sheet.”
Wren sent the sheet. But Furcal never signed it, and according to Wren, Kinzer started “backpedaling.” Pretty soon, Furcal’s agency was talking to the Dodgers and within a day agreed to virtually the same deal with L.A.: $30 million over three years with a vesting option for a fourth year based on Furcal’s health. In L.A.’s deal, Furcal needs 600 at-bats in 2011 for the fourth year to vest; Atlanta’s deal was slightly better for Furcal, stipulating that he needed only 130 games to have it vest.
It’s a little bit of a mystery why Furcal would rather go to L.A. after he was said to be excited to return to his roots in Atlanta. But Wren can’t believe it’s because they told Furcal they were envisioning him at second base instead of shortstop. Wren said they told Furcal that three weeks earlier, and that Furcal raised no objection and in fact seemed enthused about the prospect.
So where does this leave Wren and the Braves? They are looking for a pitcher and an outfielder after making an exception with Furcal, a player they loved. And as he concedes, they’re out of luck on this deal. But they won’t let this happen again.
“There’s nothing enforceable,” Wren said. “We just took his word. That doesn’t count for much.”*
By letthemhearit
December 18, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
Be sure to thank Wasserman Media Group for all the backstabbing they did trying to get Furcal to Atlanta at ManagementGeneral@wmgllc.com.
By Shawn B
December 18, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
Here is the article from Jon Heyman on SI.com:
*Braves general manager Frank Wren said today the Braves have notified the baseball agency that represents Rafael Furcal that they intend never to do business with them again.
The Braves thought they had a deal earlier this week to bring the star shortstop back to Atlanta, where he began his career, before Furcal decided to stay with the Dodgers for virtually the same terms. Wren said that Braves president John Schuerholz called Arn Tellem, who heads the baseball division of the Wasserman Media Group, to inform Tellem that the Braves will no longer enter into negotiations with them regarding baseball clients.
“We don’t have any intention of doing business with them, and they’ve been notified of that,” Wren told SI.com this afternoon.
Reminded that Tellem’s group of agents — which includes well-established veterans such as Tom Reich, Adam Katz and Paul Kinzer — is one of the biggest in baseball and represents many star players (including Francisco Rodriguez, Carlos Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi and many more players), Wren responded, “When you can’t trust who you’re doing business with, you can’t do business with them. It’s plain and simple.”
Tellem didn’t immediately return SI.com’s phone call seeking comment.
The Furcal negotiations were anything but simple, and ended with Furcal returning to the Dodgers for basically the same $30-million, three-year deal the Braves believe he’d agreed to with them.
As Wren tells it, he and Kinzer, Furcal’s main rep, negotiated the terms over several calls Monday night, and after Kinzer told Wren that if he raised the base a little, they’d be able to make a deal, Wren did just that. Kinzer then told him “I think we’re good,” but still explained he had to take it to Furcal.
Sometime later, there was a message on Wren’s voicemail with Kinzer saying, “We’re good. Raffy’s excited. Send me the term sheet.”
Wren sent the sheet. But Furcal never signed it, and according to Wren, Kinzer started “backpedaling.” Pretty soon, Furcal’s agency was talking to the Dodgers and within a day agreed to virtually the same deal with L.A.: $30 million over three years with a vesting option for a fourth year based on Furcal’s health. In L.A.’s deal, Furcal needs 600 at-bats in 2011 for the fourth year to vest; Atlanta’s deal was slightly better for Furcal, stipulating that he needed only 130 games to have it vest.
It’s a little bit of a mystery why Furcal would rather go to L.A. after he was said to be excited to return to his roots in Atlanta. But Wren can’t believe it’s because they told Furcal they were envisioning him at second base instead of shortstop. Wren said they told Furcal that three weeks earlier, and that Furcal raised no objection and in fact seemed enthused about the prospect.
So where does this leave Wren and the Braves? They are looking for a pitcher and an outfielder after making an exception with Furcal, a player they loved. And as he concedes, they’re out of luck on this deal. But they won’t let this happen again.
“There’s nothing enforceable,” Wren said. “We just took his word. That doesn’t count for much.”*
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
Navigator
Very well put. My sentiments exactly. Liberty Media is being a little too frugal.
Wren is in a “danged if I do, danged if I don’t” kind of situation. He has the title of GM in name, but not in power.
Liberty Media isn’t giving him enough to work with. I take back some of the harsh things I said about the guy.
It has to be hard on him.
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
Navigator
Very well put. My sentiments exactly. Liberty Media is being a little too frugal.
Wren is in a “danged if I do, danged if I don’t” kind of situation. He has the title of GM in name, but not in power.
Liberty Media isn’t giving him enough to work with. I take back some of the harsh things I said about the guy.
It has to be hard on him.
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
I’m guessing the batting average on balls not in play isn’t too high, huh?
Thanks, DAP. Thanks, Tomas. But there are some things I just don’t need to know.
By ShawnB
December 18, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
Sorry for the repost on that story, I had misspelled Mr. Heyman’s name and wanted to correct it.
By Random
December 18, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this
Shawn B—
Thanks — I’m totally of a mind with your 4:27 PM.
Check out what she had to say about Flowers & Lillibridge (4:46 PM above).
By Tomas
December 18, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
Frank Wren decision to stop doing bussines with Wasserman Media Group, seems pretty stupid, they represent a lot of players, not to mention the Braves tendency to stay away from Scott Boras.
This Wasserman Media Group list of clients:
-Aaron Boone -Alex Escobar -Alexis Rios -Aramis Ramirez -Brendan Ryan -Carlos Lee -Carmen Cali -Chase Utley -Craig Monroe -DJ Houlton -Dmitri Young -Edinson Volquez -Edwin Encarnacion -Esteban German -Eugenio Velez -Francisco Rodriguez -Francisco Rosario -Frank Thomas -Garrett Olson -Geoff Blum -Geovany Soto -Greg Aquino -Guillermo Mota -Hanley Ramirez -Hecto Carrasco -Hideki Matsui -Jason Giambi -Jason Hirsh -Jason Kendall -Jason Kubel -Jason Michaels -Joel Pineiro -John Grabow -Jose Guillen -Josh Towers -Juan Miranda -Kazuo Matsui -Kei Igawa -Kory Casto -Lou Marson -Matt Treanor -Matthew Capps -Max Ramirez -Michael Rivera -Mike Liberthal -Mike Mussina -Nomar Garciaparra -Omar Vizquel -Peter Moylan -Rafael Furcal -Ramon Ramirez -Randy Wolf -Reed Johnson -Rick VandenHurk -Roman Colon -Ryan Tucker -Sammy Sosa -Shawn Hill -Tony Blanco -Tyler Lumsden -Vincente Padilla -Wilson Betemit -Wily Mo Pena
By TheCutMan
December 18, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
Well said. VERY well said, Mark Bradley. This is a bullet Dodgererd (pun intended) for the Braves.
By TURTSNAP
December 18, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
I hope they haven’t soured on Yunel, and it is just that his name keeps coming up because other clubs want him. I personally think Yunel is going to have a great career!
By BO......
December 18, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
I GUESS EITHER MOYLAN CHANGES AGENTS OR TEAMS. I suggest that all dealings with them are the old fashion way. agree now sign now. no papper work unsigned leaves the office.
By anotherbrave
December 18, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this
Great article Mark. I would rather see us play young players and struggle instead of trading the future for older players that are only average, and that we will only have for a short time. After all, the Braves that were good for so long, were built with good young arms and maybe a veteran here and there. Unless we get or develop some pitching, we won’t win, even with nine Furcals. I agree also on Tyler. Why not use him at first?
By Bill1956
December 18, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
Everyone talks about Cox retiring in one or two years. They NEED to sign Greg Maddiox as assistant coach NOW with the understanding he will be the next coach of the Braves. I don’t know of anyone who studies the other teams hitters better than Greg. This is providing that he would accept the job.
By Random
December 18, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
Tomas—
I believe it was Schuerholz’ decision, not Wren’s.
By Raymond
December 18, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this
Furcal was an unranked free agent due to his injury. He was available without draft pick compensation. When you can obtain an asset for no players and no draft picks, I don’t see how signing him was a bad idea. The risk is less as there is less of an investment. His only risk is medical, but that didn’t stop the Braves from chasing Burnett. Losing him is hardly a good thing.
By BravesAreDone
December 18, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
Best article I’ve read yet about the Braves this offseason! Thanks Mark.
By DHD
December 18, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
I agree with signing Adam Dunn. He gives a cleanup presence that we don’t have. Do it.
By LivininAL
December 18, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this
This off season reminds me of the past season. Those one run losses that drive you crazy. I think the Braves have had a string of just bad luck; like the one run losses we will turn it around. We will be improved by spring training. I feel the upcoming seasons offer us a chance to get a few breaks that we totally lacked last year. Go Braves!
By Mark Bradley
December 18, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this
I’d rather have Abreu than Burrell or Dunn. But maybe that’s just me.
By anotherbrave
December 18, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this
An agent that does not know the meaning of honor. Imagine that! Agents, attorneys, players, politicians, by hook or by crook, it’s all about the money and ME!
By fieldofdreams
December 18, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this
I agree with your column, Mark, with the caveat that the Braves may have thought that securing Furcal would make Escobar expendable in a trade for the starting pitching we desperately need. At this point its obvious that we’re gonna suck next year, but hopefully it will be “rebuilding suck” where young guys with upside get the chance to prove themselves. Don’t think I can stand another year of re-treads and rent-a-players who don’t really want to wear the Tomahawk.
By spotts
December 18, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this
Hey Mark - they put your quote about the “best deals” in Yahoo’s Big League Stew. You’re not quoted directly, but you’re playing “Near Bystander.”
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/bigleaguestew/post/Rafael-Furcal-orders-up-a-whopper-of-a-free-agen;_ylt=AhFsaRHfzZkYkyPgmAKWLiERvLYF?urn=mlb,130072
By brandon W
December 18, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this
Furcal only helped win a postseason game one time that I can recall, in fact the last time the Braves advanced to the NLCS. Ray Sanchez(? i really can’t remember his name) played short because Furcal was hurt. I remember not working the count, swinging at crap pitches, not being a smart base stealer like Grissom, Nixon, and even Deion, Gant…Lofton was at least a constant threat. Now forget him…we already did…Sign Smoltz because he and the fans deserve a final round with Atl…try to sign Glavine as well, there will still be plenty left in the bank to make trades during the season.
By brandon W
December 18, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
Furcal only helped win a postseason game one time that I can recall, in fact the last time the Braves advanced to the NLCS, Ray Sanchez(? i really can’t remember his name) played short because Furcal was hurt. I remember not working the count, swinging at crap pitches, not being a smart base stealer like Grissom, Nixon, and even Deion, Gant…Lofton was at least a constant threat. Now forget him…we already did…Sign Smoltz because he and the fans deserve a final round with Atl…try to sign Glavine as well, there will still be plenty left in the bank to make trades during the season.
By Eddie
December 18, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this
I think that this all might be for the best that we didnt get burnett or furcal, cause both over the past few years have been dealing with injuries. I think the braves should go after manny they need a power bat cause with avg pitching they are going to need a lot of offense. But we should still go after peavy cause if we dont we well be going into the season without an ace, and finally the window of opportunity is closing on chipper and cox cause of there age so we need to win and win now go and get manny and trade for peavy please.
By Eddie
December 18, 2008 7:06 PM | Link to this
I think that this all might be for the best that we didnt get burnett or furcal, cause both over the past few years have been dealing with injuries. I think the braves should go after manny they need a power bat cause with avg pitching they are going to need a lot of offense. But we should still go after peavy cause if we dont we well be going into the season without an ace, and finally the window of opportunity is closing on chipper and cox cause of there age so we need to win and win now go and get manny and trade for peavy please.
By Eddie
December 18, 2008 7:07 PM | Link to this
I think that this all might be for the best that we didnt get burnett or furcal, cause both over the past few years have been dealing with injuries. I think the braves should go after manny they need a power bat cause with avg pitching they are going to need a lot of offense. But we should still go after peavy cause if we dont we well be going into the season without an ace, and finally the window of opportunity is closing on chipper and cox cause of there age so we need to win and win now go and get manny and trade for peavy please.
By S t ee n kie
December 18, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
Great pontification. U get an odoriferous award for clear thinking.
By Skipper
December 18, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
The Braves are the stupid one’s here. To offer that kind of money for a player that is hurt 2/3 of the time is stupid. I don’t care how good he hit’s if he’s not going to play very much. Save the money and get somebody else.
By P. Rose
December 18, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this
For those of you defending Furcal by pointing out the fact that the Braves haven’t been to the postseason since he left, you’re forgetting one thing: Yes, they got to the postseason every year he was here; but they choked each time, partly thanks to Furcal. His lifetime batting average is .286; but his postseason batting average is .234.
By Philliesuk
December 18, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this
Mark, you are wrong, wrong, wrong about one thing. How can you be so sure about Tyler Flowers? There are plenty of guys who tear it up in the Sally and Arizona Leagues, only to fade away. Where is Thorman these days??? Uhhh….
Tyler Flowers may turn into a great ballplayer. And he also may do nothing. But his stock only recently rose high. Before that, he was known only as a doper.
Mark, you have followed baseball for a long time, and certainly long enough to see a lot of talented ballplayers fizzle.
Wren made a good trade, because this team does not need a backup catcher. He’s also a couple of years away. What this team really needs is a couple of RELIABLE starters (not just aces) to eat innings and rest our bullpen.
Mission accomplished (with Vazquez, at least).
By Brian
December 18, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
NOTE TO FRANK WREN:
If a guy looks like a petafile(Kinzer)… don’t trust him for God sakes!!
Shurholz ripped those filthy agents a new one, didn’t he? Man, I like that!
By Hamul
December 18, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this
This one makes so much sense. Everyday I hope that maybe today I will hear that we got someone. But I don’t feel we should overpay or lose our prospects for it. Why not build in 2009 for whats to come!!!
Pitching: We got Jurjens, Campillo, Vazquez (who I am not a big fan of). I know a bunch of people have said that we don’t need Smoltz or Glavine but I disagree. Smoltz just 1 season ago was awesome. If he can get his speed and accuracy, I would like him to pitch for me. This leaves the final spot. We got Hanson who we should not rush in. James Parr was good end of last season. Carlier Morton, Jojo Reyes were good in patches but not spectacular. If anyone remembers, Jojo went his first 8 starts out of which in 6 or so were quality starts, we just didn’t generate the offense to help him. Chuck James, I don’t like cause in my book, he is useless.
Bullpen We got it all here. Carlyle, Bennett, Acosta, Boyer, Gonzales, Soriano, Moylan, Stockman
Catchers McCann is all we need. Also, someone else mentioned the Flowers was really too good to play as his backup. If he was so good, we should have kept him for a year and then got some good value for him (Vazquez, really. His coach last year said that he is useless, pretty much)
Power Hitting Chipper - 20 McCann - 20 Kotchman - 10 Kelly - 10 Yunel - 5 Francouer - 15 Anderson/someone - 5 Diaz / someone - 5
90 HR’s is what we should get. All we need is one big bat, someone who can clutch hit. I would love to have Norton back too.
I think all of the above show a good unit to build around. But we need to get better at stealing bases, not striking out and hitting consistently than sporadically.
I hope we have a good 2009 and then a great future beyond that. GO BRAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By JR
December 18, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this
Circle the calendar…On July 31st Furcal and the Dodgers make their way to Turner Field.
By AceCometh
December 18, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this
I wonder what Otis Nixon is doing. All joking aside, I wouldn’t want Abreu, Burrell or Dunn on the Braves roster. I’m not totally sold on Hermida either. If Wren is talking to the Pirates as rumored, maybe he can come away with Nate McLouth.
By James
December 18, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this
Hamul—
I enjoyed reading your comments.
By cvbraves
December 18, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
Hurry home, DOB.
Thanks Bobby Cox and Frank Wren. You both have my (and many other’s, I’m sure) sincere appreciation for your efforts.
Bobby, you will always be the very best (how quick folks forget,eh?)
Mr. Wren, hang-in-there, you’ve given great effort so far and done the best you possibly could given the circumstances.
Actually, I hope neither of you read the AJC “blogs” — most of them don’t sound like true Braves fans!
By shugie
December 18, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this
Why not sign old Randy dandy Johnson to a 1 year $6-7 contract with a 1 yr team option… his stats when he pitched last year were actually quite okay…..
Get him and Glavine to train young Hanson who MUST be thrown into the majors in 2009 and grow slowly from there
By dawg
December 18, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this
Raphael, yes you, I know your reading this….If you don’t want to be here, then good riddance. While you were here we liked you. This bs though is despicable. Maybe they don’t teach that in the third world country you grew up in. Enjoy our decreasingly relevant American dollars. Make it while you can……….looser.
By gotigers72
December 18, 2008 10:07 PM | Link to this
What bothers me is the lack of loyalty from Hampton and Furcal, guys that the Braves stood behind when their asses were in trouble. Hampton with health and Raffy with the DUI problems. Hampton got paid a fortune for pitching 5 years, but ended up pitching about 2 at the most. Yet he goes to Houston just when he was starting to look pretty good toward the end of last year. Nice and ethical there Mike. You SHOULD have pitched for the Braves for league minimum for at least a year to pay them back for standing behind you for all of those years that you DIDN’T pitch.
And Raffy, if you don’t remember how much support the other players and Manager Cox gave you when you received your SECOND DUI, then you are one of the least grateful people that I know. I remember when they won the division, players coming into the training room and bringing you orange juice and giving you hugs so you could feel like part of the celebration. I don’t care what anybody else says, you were a trip to watch play. Just a blur running the bases and that cannon for an arm. I really enjoyed watching you play, but I don’t have much respect for you now after you turned your back on the Braves, Bobby Cox and the players that cared about you when you needed a little love. Those guys REALLY DID care about you, but you showed them no respect.
By Glenn
December 19, 2008 12:00 AM | Link to this
Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In with the new ones ,out with the old ones, bye bye Smoltz,Glavine, and anyone else too old to play or too untalented! Quit trying to waste money!
By jon
December 19, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this
The economic downturn will eventually hit MLB. I wish Wren et al were spending their efforts in securing the players of the future instead of offering 30 mil to someone like Furcal.
By Henry
December 19, 2008 12:18 AM | Link to this
Vasquez was a good trade, and I am very confident that he will do well here. Raffy would have been very good also if healthy, both for his defense and threat on the base. it is unfair to bash him now because he has made a decision which he believes is in his best interest. I believe that with the experience gained by the starters last season, plus vasquez and a run producer in left field, the Braves will compete next season. Just think of the Falcons, not many people gave them any chance this year.
By Brian
December 19, 2008 12:44 AM | Link to this
dawg, the funny thing is that Furcal might actually read some of this. I know that no matter how much money and fame I had, I would want to know what people that I just spit in the face of thought about me!
If so, FU— YOU, YOU DRUNK MIDGET!!
By Brian
December 19, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this
I hope we trade for Dye and sign Sheets. No sense on trading for a guy like Peavy or Greinke if Escobar has to be in the deals, which most likely is what teams will want. Don’t know how Wren can trade the guy when we have no one else to replace him at SS. Save yourself the stress Mr. Wren and get these two for us, please! Lowe will probably get us in another bidding war that ain’t worth the headache!
By Mark Bradley
December 19, 2008 1:21 AM | Link to this
That’s me, sportts. Always the near bystander.
Thanks for letting me know.
By Joey
December 19, 2008 1:52 AM | Link to this
Well I have to say I’m kinda upset that braves got screwed on the whole furcal deal, but I do agree with those who said this wouldn’t make the braves that much better. The only way I see that deal working is if the Braves were able to go to the Padres and make a deal featuring Kelly Johnson instead of Yunel, knowing the Padres have no other options. If they say no, at worst you have KJ in left, Furcal, at second and Yunel at ss and one of the best infields in the NL.
The heart of the matter, I believe doesn’t come down to winning the division or a World Series. I hate to say it, being a lifelong Atlanta resident and Braves fun, but Atlanta’s fan base is not one that will support consistently losing teams. This is not Chicago, New York, or Boston that will continue to go to games despite their records. I believe adding furcal and a mid-tier FA would keep the Braves in contention till at least the All Star Break, and put a few more people in the stands. There are too many things to do in Atlanta as an alternative to keep people in the stands if they are losing every game. Not to mention the fact that a much cheaper alternative in the Gwinnett Braves AAA team is moving a mere 30 minutes away.
Without a Jake Peavy or equivalent starter and what would be an amazing 3 years in a row late season crash by the mets the braves know they are not going to win the pennant. They also know they must do something to show fans that they are not completely complacent in finish 4th or 5th every year as well. Sign Smoltz and an Oliver Perez type free agent and put a few heads in the seats!
By drew
December 19, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this
add sheets and dunn ..that will put some people in the seats for that adam dunn longball that could reach the upper deck
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
December 19, 2008 3:31 AM | Link to this
Yes, it would seem that Bobby Cox is hellbent on trading Yunel Escobar while the idea of trading Chipper Jones would never even occur to Bobby Cox.
One player would seem to part of the future while the other is part of the past. It just doesn’t add up.
For any manager to be so ingrained into the daily machinations of an organization while contemplating retirement is bizarre at best.
In my opinion, Cox will do anything to attempt a leap of faith for the purpose of getting back to the playoffs, even if it means selling the future of this franchise so he can have one last chance at winning another WS ring.
By dave
December 19, 2008 5:46 AM | Link to this
The Braves blew the free-agent signing that makes the most sense economically and tactically —- Mark Texeira Actually, he is still technically available. At whatever inflated-price, he offers the best return on investment and the lowest likelihood to underachieve by performance; injury and health. Chipper’s the face of the franchise but for how much longer? Tex give you a power-hitting switch-hiiter, with local roots via Tech; no off-the-field drama; and a very good glove too! Throw the money at him!
By dave
December 19, 2008 5:51 AM | Link to this
The Braves blew the free-agent signing that makes the most sense economically and tactically —- Mark Texeira Actually, he is still technically available. At whatever inflated-price, he offers the best return on investment and the lowest likelihood to underachieve by performance; injury and health. Chipper’s the face of the franchise but for how much longer? Tex give you a power-hitting switch-hiiter, with local roots via Tech; no off-the-field drama; and a very good glove too! Throw the money at him!
By tlj
December 19, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this
I agree that you have to build from within the system. However, you can’t depend on the farm system for everything. You need to make some trades to fill position of needs. The Braves have done this very well over the years.
I like the Vasquez trade because we traded parts that we don’t need. Flowers is a great hitting prospect and I think will be successful in the majors. Unfortunately, it does not appear that it will be as a catcher. His appeal appears to be as a 1B/DH. The Braves do not have a need for either position. Actually they do not have a need for a catcher. Flowers value to the Braves was in a trade. His value was high due to the season that he just had.
I do not think we just throw the kids onto the field and let them play. It could set them back years, let them play in the minors and be successful. Bring them up when they are ready.
As far as the failed trades and FA signing are concerned, I think we are better off with not having gotten anyof the players mentioned. Peavy, Burnett, Furcal are all injury risk. Let’s see if we can’t get a mid tier FA pitcher and outfielder for 2009 and be ready for 2010.
By Nurse Ratchet
December 19, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this
Let’s face it, the Braves aren’t going to span the gap between themselves and the Phils & Mets regardless of what they planned to do - in 2009. Personally, I’d field the best roster that’s possible w/ the young bucks and let them take their lumps for a year. They’ll have to learn how to lose before they learn how to win at some point, so why not 2009? The gravy train years of expecting a division champion each season are long gone. Get some experience, and concentrate on the 2010 season…
By K Rack
December 19, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
I’m glad to hear people talking about building the farm. I think all Braves fans would be excited to watch some of these young guys take their lumps and develop into something special together - even if it meant struggling at first. Heck, what do they have to lose? Mark, isn’t that the way Tampa Bay did it? Good young talent plus a couple of seasoned vets?
By Kelley
December 19, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this
I agree 100% about keeping Escobar, I was wishing if they traded anyone it would be Kelly Johnson.
I just think that the fans, myself incldued, realize that there were several pieces missing last season and we are just getting worried that the Braves will not put the pieces into place before Opening Day, you know, we fans were pretty spoiled for 14 straight seasons, the last few have been tough.
I just read the statement from F*******’s agent about him going to 2nd being the deciding factor for him. Yeah sure, I really believe that. They used the Braves to shop for more money, because isn’t that all it’s about to players these days, more money?
I wish Furcal the level of success that Andruw had last season with the Dodgers.
By lenox
December 19, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
Give me a FREAKING BREAK !!!! The way the Braves have released players over the years and state “it’s just about business and salary cap.” They gave these players no appreciation based on their service to the organization…. Ron Gant, David Justice, Deion, Jermaine Dye, Brain Jordan, etc. It’ll be years and years before this team reach the playoff again. YOU STUCK IT TO THEM FURCAL, GOOD FOR YOU. Just a little side note: I have sat out in the center field bleachers when it was a freaking 100 deg to see Hank Aaron, Felipe Alou, Joe Torre, Rico Carty, Clete Boyer, Sonny Jackson, etc
By B.fan
December 19, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
Lenox Deion???? Dude. I think you sat in the 100 d heat too long.
By Pete
December 19, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Not signing Furcal is a huge BLESSING, and it’s NOT in disguise. He is physically a worn out has been who will be lucky to play in 35 games in 2009. The Braves just saved $ millions $ and a HUGE embarrassment. The world of sports will be bankrupt in 2 to 3 years so this is a step in the right and a sane direction.
By Ted Striker
December 19, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
Bradley, if you figure out how to kick someone off your board, let me be the first. I won’t get angry and I’ll still buy you lunch if you don’t mind prison food.
By why
December 19, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this
Who the hell is Furcal??
By Stephen
December 19, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
Awesome— we now have Mr. Bradley on record as saying that “he’d rather be a know-nothing, knee-jerk, ignorant ranter than an intelligent, well-informed journalist who actually imparts information and insightful commentary instead of rambling through a column that took a maximum of 18 minutes to write.”
Fangraphs is one of many websites dedicated to thinking about baseball in terms of what actually helps your team win, rather than the silly baseball thought-of-yore that induces people like MB to write meaningless columns. It means you can actually think about what you’re getting emotional and passionate about instead posting things like “FU Drunk Midget.” I’m all for emotion… just not for ignorance. Go Braves!
PS from Mark’s quick response, I think I hit a nerve. The sad thing is that there is a simple solution— Do research. Think about what you’re saying. Write well.
Double Peace
By supa
December 19, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
I don’t care about Furcal. I think it’s better that we didn’t sign him. I do feel some uneasiness for losing Tyler Flowers. The guys looks like a power hitter that we’ve been lacking. Why not mold him into a 1st baseman?
By Brian
December 19, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this
lenox, you sound like an old fart that’s off his medicine! Chill old timer that watched Aaron, Alou etc. You haven’t got a FU—— clue what the Braves or ANY teams reasons for trading a guy or not re-signing them! I suggest you get back on your meds before you have a stroke of ignorance!
By Stephen
December 19, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
I think my previous post got deleted because I posted links, so to repost:
I owe MB an apology for my preceding post. It was harsh considering that I missed MB’s posts in the middle where he made an attempt to learn about what I was referencing (fangraphs.com). Apologies.
For some more productive discussion:
Google “BABIP” and the wikipedia entry explains the concept and gives some intuition for why it’s an informative statistic (although it isn’t actually relevant for the Furcal discussion). This works for all those other “nerdy” acronyms, too.
Google “Rafael Furcal’s Looming Decision” to read the fangraphs article I was referencing. The basic intuition is that $10M per year is a very conservative estimate of Furcal’s value and assumes that he will be completely league-average over the next four years. So if you think, like I do, that he’ll do better than that, you’re getting much more than you paid for.
Again, apologies to MB for a rough post that didn’t take into account his research effort. There’s a lot of really savvy and thoughtful baseball analysis out there, and I would love to see more of this newer analysis in the AJC since teams that are rich (BoSox) and poor (A’s) are using it to win ball games.
Most importantly, Go Braves!
By Mark Bradley
December 19, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
That’s OK, Stephen. You’re entitled to get huffy when I make little jokes. What can I say? I can only take so many numbers before nodding off.
And for future reference: I believe you’re only allowed two links in a post. Not sure why, but that’s my understanding.
By Keep it Real
December 19, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
Braves have fell off, we need faces like Ron Gant and David Justice, braves get rid of all those faces and now we cant make the playoffs… Ryan Howard face in philly they got the championship!!!
We got rid of Jermaine Dye, and Willie Harris, call it what it is… Keep it real
By Brian
December 19, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this
keep it real, as a white dude, I can understand what you mean to a point, but you don’t really think the Braves intentionally refuse to have black players, do you? Dye was traded for Tucker- a black dude. Trading Gant was not that big of a deal because his career kinda fizzled after he left Atl. anyways. Justice, well that was a dumb trade, but the Braves have made dumb trades with a lot of white players too, so… Willie Harris? Please, he cost us more runs in ‘07 with is second half MAJOR LEAGUE SLUMP that when they shipped him to Was., it was a blessing! He was plain awful!
I would love to see them bring Dye back! I don’t care if a guy is white,black,green, or pink…if he can hit, bring him in!
By Rafael Furcal
December 19, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
My agent tell me to sleep on my decision, well I sleep on it and wake up in cold sweat! I had a dream Bobby throw boogers from bench at me. It scare me right back to LA! He love picking boogers and throw them at me in dream, so I don’t go Atl. That my story, and I stick to it!!!!
By Red Clayer
December 19, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this
AMEN MARK! Take the millions and put it into the farm system! You can’t win signing free agents. We need pitchers in the draft - and then cultivate them. Be patient ATLANTA - don’t give away great prospects for injury prone, over the hill players!
By Tim
December 19, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this
Jurjens, Vazquez and Campillo don’t look bad as 2, 3 and 4 spots in the rotation. The #5 spot is always a young guy in training - Morton could fill that. If Smoltz makes it back - he can be the #1 spot in the rotation. Glavine would provide insurance. Predicition - look for Burrell in LF.
By Ghost of Shane Vendrell
December 20, 2008 7:13 AM | Link to this
Yes, thank goodness the Braves didn’t land Furcal. I don’t care what they said they wanted him because they had intentions of trading Escobar and that would be a horrible mistake. If Bobby hates Escobar so badly and can’t stand him then show Bobby the door and tell him we would rather keep our outstanding young shortstop who will cost us nothing for the next 4 years.
The best thing this franchise can do is stop trying to squeak into the playoffs to get knocked out in the first round and thinking ahead about competing for a championship. That’s exactly what happened in the Tex deal and we gave up somebody who could be the next Pedro and somebody who could be the next Jeter. For what? A shot at a first round elimination and Casey Kotchman.
Unless your The Yankess or Red Sox and just buy all the Free Agents your going to go to periods of rebuilding and that is what should be going on here. This team isn’t close, why am I the only one who can see that? Our best hitter is guaranteed to miss at least 40 games next year, our bullpen could collapse with injury at any time and we have about 3 number 5 pitches filling out the rotation. And what does this organization do? Trade a promising prospect in Flowers for a retread #4 starter. Ugh. Tyler Flowers will never be a major league catcher so Mccann wasn’t blocking him. He will be a slugging first baseman however and that is exactly what the Braves need.
This franchise should smarted up, tell Cox we will not sell the farm just so you can have one last chance to get knocked out of the playoffs and look to 2010 and beyond.
By Ghost of Shane Vendrell
December 20, 2008 7:14 AM | Link to this
Yes, thank goodness the Braves didn’t land Furcal. I don’t care what they said they wanted him because they had intentions of trading Escobar and that would be a horrible mistake. If Bobby hates Escobar so badly and can’t stand him then show Bobby the door and tell him we would rather keep our outstanding young shortstop who will cost us nothing for the next 4 years.
The best thing this franchise can do is stop trying to squeak into the playoffs to get knocked out in the first round and thinking ahead about competing for a championship. That’s exactly what happened in the Tex deal and we gave up somebody who could be the next Pedro and somebody who could be the next Jeter. For what? A shot at a first round elimination and Casey Kotchman.
Unless your The Yankess or Red Sox and just buy all the Free Agents your going to go to periods of rebuilding and that is what should be going on here. This team isn’t close, why am I the only one who can see that? Our best hitter is guaranteed to miss at least 40 games next year, our bullpen could collapse with injury at any time and we have about 3 number 5 pitches filling out the rotation. And what does this organization do? Trade a promising prospect in Flowers for a retread #4 starter. Ugh. Tyler Flowers will never be a major league catcher so Mccann wasn’t blocking him. He will be a slugging first baseman however and that is exactly what the Braves need.
This franchise should smarted up, tell Cox we will not sell the farm just so you can have one last chance to get knocked out of the playoffs and look to 2010 and beyond.
By doc bailey
December 20, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this
To hell with trying to sign these overpriced free agents that, once signed to a large contract, don’t give a rats a* whether the Atlanta Braves win or loose. Take a page out of the RAYS book, and bring up these talented kids and start developing them at the Major league level. If they are as good as the organization says they are, then start developing them at the major league level. We may take our lumps for a year or two, But at least the team will be made of hungry young players that care about winning for the team. P.S.If the current coaching staff can’t buy into this, then this is where the money needs to be spent- new, young, hungry coaches.
By Duh
December 20, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
The problem with the Braves fielding a team of “young bucks” or younger players is that their minor league system does not have the position players too fill these positions. Their minor leagues have only turned out three or four decent players in the last few years. They traded away others, and the system is not loaded by any means. Go to baseball-reference.com and check out the stats of the Braves various minor league teams. No Chipper Jones types, No future big named, big numbers type stars down there. Plenty of maybe middle of the road guys and never gonna make its down there. No big HR hitters. No pure average type guys. A couple of potential good players, but none that you look at and just say you can’t wait. Hanson is a bright light for pitchers. But, hitters are a huge question mark. If you look at ESPN and check the free agents out there this year, the grand majority are well over 30 and many over 35. That is not future material. Just holes fillers for a year or two.
By Jorge
December 20, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this
Totally agree…I think the Mets and Phillies would have remian favorites and superior even if we got either Peavy or Burnett…which both have a big ? about their durability…Traditionally is better to grow than to pay for it…in a couple of years both the Phillies and Mets will be older and probably without one or two of their big weapons…Lets be patience and sacrifice a year or two to be contenders for 10 later…
By Kenneth Simpson
December 20, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this
I read today that Oakland thinks they are close to signing Jason Giambi. His agent is one of the same ones that Furcal had so Oakland might get shafted like the Braves did. The braves were treated bad in dealing with Furcal’s agents but they came out the winner. They don’t someone to displace a good shortstop and demand 40 million dollars and has a bad back. He won’t play worth a toot for the Dodgers. Mark my word! One more thing can the braves bring back John Rocker or Mark Wohlers who could throw 100 MPH to pitch to Furcal when he comes to Atlanta. He had better contact Barry Bonds and borrow some of his armour when he comes to Atlanta. Maybe they can find one of his agents in the stands and throw a bat or something at them too for the underhanded way they treated the braves. I see today that Boras is treating the Red Sox the same way taking their offer for Tex to another team to beef it up some. I hope no team is stupid enough to give him 200 million dollars but somebody probably will. If they do he ought to give 1/2 of it back to the braves since they cleaned out the farm for him and for only part of 2 seasons. They gave him to the Angels for nothing and then gave away Flowers and other prospects for nothing. That is why there is no future for the braves in years to come.
By Jim Petty
December 21, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
I know there was talk if Furcal was acquired, to move Johnson to left and install Furcal at 2nd. It seems to make more sense to me (logically and monetarily) to still move Johnson to the left and install Prado at 2nd base. This will the braves to add another bat to the lineup (which Prado overwhelmingly proved he could provide in the 2nd half of the season) without having to make another crazy trade that involves one of their talented young players. That also allow Cox to give some at bats to Diaz in left as well.
By Robert
December 21, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
“It’s a little bit of a mystery why Furcal would rather go to L.A”
Becuae Cox is a donkey and Torre isnt
By Toby Cash
December 22, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this
Surely one does not expect honor among the money hungry ballplayers and their agents. Honesty and honor are forgotten terms for these people.
By Skeezix
December 22, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
Mark: I agree. It made no sense to go after F.U.rcal in the first place. Escobar’s better, younger and has solid potential. Wren comes off looking worse to me than F. U.rcal’s agent—trusting an agent comes across as naive and, in this case, the agent was clearly craftier. Furthermore, giving up Flowers for what we got in return makes no sense. The Braves need to demote Wren to equipment manager.
By NO MORE BOBBY
December 23, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
Go ahead and plan on Friday night fireworks being the only highlights this season at Turner. Blah!
Real baseball will return to Atlanta in 2010 when Smoltz is the manager and Bobby Ball (yawn) finally leaves town.
By Vic Mackey
December 25, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this
hey ghost of shane vendrell
I’ll see you on the other side.
Is it hot down there??
By mowreck
January 8, 2009 5:45 AM | Link to this
The Braves have traded off more young, good players out of their farm systems than any team in baseball. Also some good players off the Braves. Sadly, in most cases we bet back less than we have given.