Home > Jay Bookman > Archives > 2009 > January > 08 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USGround invasion a dangerous course
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The border between a necessity and a mistake isn’t as clearly marked as the border between nations. So when Israeli troops crossed the line that separates Israel from Gaza this week, they may also have strayed across the line into a mistake.
It’s impossible to argue that Israel had no right to respond as it has. With Hamas firing missiles into Israeli territory, Israel had every justification and indeed obligation to stop those attacks. The most fundamental duty of any government is to protect its people, and when the people have the tragic history of the Jews, that duty is close to sacred.
(Of course, Hamas and its supporters claim similar justification, arguing that it fired the missiles because Israel had sealed off Gaza and barred all but subsistence aid, denying its people a right to make a living. To which Israel responds that the embargo was necessary because Hamas is a terrorist group that refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist, to which Hamas responds … well, the mutual recrimination can go all the way back to the days of the Bible.)
However, whether Israel had the right to respond militarily is a very different question than whether it was wise to do so in such all-out fashion, moving from a quite effective air campaign to outright ground invasion.
As powerful as it is, Israel’s military cannot impose peace. Any victory it achieves will be temporary; any cessation in missile launches will be fleeting. The idea that the Israeli military can “free” Gaza from the grip of Hamas over the long term is implausible.
And that’s the core of Israel’s predicament. In the short term, it has every advantage. It has the military might, the economic strength, the backing of the world’s sole superpower. In the short term, it has the ability to crush Hamas and is doing so.
But in the long term, the balance of power changes. The missiles acquired by its Arab enemies get longer in range and heavier in payload with every passing year. The Palestinians are producing many more babies than the Jews, threatening to change geography by demography, and international support for Israel, particularly outside the United States, is waning. According to our own analysts in the CIA and elsewhere, America’s power and influence will decline in the years to come, at least in relative terms, and so will its ability to protect Israel.
Conversely, while the policy of Hamas and the Palestinians may seem extremely self-destructive and foolish —- exposing their own people to death and destruction on a massive scale —- there is a perverted wisdom to it in the long term. By provoking attacks such as the bombing of the school at Jabaliya, which killed an estimated 40 civilians, including 10 children, Palestinian extremists ensure a simmering wrath against Israel that will nurture their cause for generations.
Somehow, Israel has to break that cycle. Somehow, it has to stop sacrificing its long-term survival hopes for short-term returns. But it will not do so without outside pressure, and that help can come from only one place —- the United States.
In that regard, President Bush has done Israel no favors. Rather than push Israel and its enemies to compromise, his unquestioning support has created a false sense of security for Israel. It has lulled its leaders and its people into believing that long-term survival really can be attained largely through force of arms, even though the map and demography say otherwise.
That hands-off approach has had an impact on many Palestinians as well. With no hope of intervention from the Americans, they have taken help where they could find it, from Iran. Through Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon, the mullahs in Tehran have what they long sought, a role in attacking Israel and by doing so winning standing in the Islamic world.
And so the spiral deepens into dark familiar violence. For both sides, war now feels natural, almost safe, certainly safer than the risk of trying to change things. And their “friends” are all too willing to supply the means to make war, but balk at helping them find peace.
Comments
By DB, Gwinnettian
January 8, 2009 7:06 AM | Link to this
On behalf of the thoughtful majority of your readers, I want to thank you, Jay, for your sane analysis of this depressingly familiar, regrettable situation.
And now, fellow sane people, enjoy the comedic stylings of the AJC Comments Crew as they attempt to twist Jay’s words into something they wish he’d said.
By AJC/DNC Management
January 8, 2009 7:40 AM | Link to this
By provoking attacks such as the bombing of the school at Jabaliya, which killed an estimated 40 civilians, including 10 children, Palestinian extremists ensure a simmering wrath against Israel that will nurture their cause for generations.-Bookman
The tactic doesn’t work with out Western Media complicity.
Kudos for admitting the attacks are at least “provoked,” but what of the other 50 left wing media outlets that solely blame Israel?
And let Hamas gain sympathy for committing atrocities?
By Taxpayer
January 8, 2009 7:52 AM | Link to this
What 50 left wing media outlets solely blame Israel, Tokyo “Andy” Rose?
By DB, Gwinnettian
January 8, 2009 7:57 AM | Link to this
Taxpayer, great minds think alike.
Put up or shut your fat yap, Andy.
By Mrs. Godzilla
January 8, 2009 8:10 AM | Link to this
Great Post Jay.
Well done.
By AJC/DNC Management
January 8, 2009 8:19 AM | Link to this
The Israeli military operation in Gaza has killed at least 680 people and wounded more than 3,000 since its launch, Palestinian medical sources said Wednesday. Nearly a third of the deaths — 30 percent — are women and children, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, citing statistics released Tuesday by the Palestinian Ministry of Health.-CNN
duh
By Ray
January 8, 2009 8:23 AM | Link to this
There were two dead Hamas “freedom fighters” in the rubble of that school. Hamas was storing ammunition and mortars within the school and firing weapons from there prior to the attack. When is it OK to hide behind children, Bookman? I would venture to say that that has never been done by the Israelis.
Israel has rarely been the initial aggressor. From the ‘67 war to present day, they have answered to attacks by their Muslim neighbors. They have taken territory, then given it back because of international pressure but you can only push a determined people so far when their survival is at stake.
By Dr. John
January 8, 2009 8:24 AM | Link to this
Well Jay…With Israel losing the demographics situation and the “cycle of violence ” thing (code word: Jewish “eye for an eye” belligerence opposed to self-righteous Christian ‘turning the other cheek”) going back to the Bible (Palestinians were…Philistines?.. Amalekites?… Hittites?? Pray tell please share Jay) the question begs….What solution have you brought to the table?
I think an Israeli national suicide pact would solve the dilemma you have with the Jewish state very nicely. Oh yeah..they tried that when Rabin shook Arafat’s hand on the White House lawn.
You are right about one thing. In the long run the ayatollahs & Hamas may finish off Israel in their slow deliberate sadistic game. And lucky for you, you may actually live to see it in your lifetime . It’s just those darn pesky few belligerent Jews in Israel who still have the desire to live that may delay it a bit. Patience dear Jay…Gotta be patient like an ayatollah.
By A. Nuther
January 8, 2009 8:25 AM | Link to this
Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security sites in Hamas-ruled Gaza Saturday and early Sunday, killing at least 230 people in one of the Mideast conflict’s bloodiest assaults in decades. The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket attacks that have traumatized southern Israel.
Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead. More than 400 people were also wounded.
The unprecedented assault sparked protests and condemnations throughout the Arab world, and many of Israel’s Western allies urged restraint, though the U.S. blamed Hamas for the fighting.-CBS/AP
By Curious Observer
January 8, 2009 8:30 AM | Link to this
Somehow, Israel has to break that cycle. Somehow, it has to stop sacrificing its long-term survival hopes for short-term returns. But it will not do so without outside pressure, and that help can come from only one place —- the United States.
So what’s the solution here, Jay? Allowing Hamas to continue to maim or kill Israelis via rocket attack? Making a false peace with an enemy that has openly stated it will settle only for the complete destruction of Israel? Surrendering Israeli statehood and returning to domination by the Arabs?
I too regret the killing of children in schools. But how is Israel to deal with an enemy that will hide in schoolhouses and put everybody else at risk? I also regret the killing of uninvolved adult civilians. But I remind you that many of these civilians elected Hamas to run their government. They chose unrelenting hostility toward Israel. They cannot have it both ways—uninterrupted attacks on Israel and Gaza peace at the same time.
Finally, opening the Gaza borders is not a solution. It will merely allow Hamas fighters to import more of their terror into Israel. That was the reason for closing border crossings in the first place.
It will be tragic for the survival of Israel if the United States applies pressure on the Israelis to make an accommodation with Hamas, an accommodation whose terms Hamas has no intention of heeding. It seems to me that the only long-term solution for the Israelis is reoccupation of Gaza and use of military force to suppress the terrorists harbored there. I am neither Jewish nor a fierce partisan of Israel, but I see no possibility for a peace that can be sustained otherwise.
By DB, Gwinnettian
January 8, 2009 8:39 AM | Link to this
Still waiting, Andy. Cherry picked copy/pastes don’t count.
You claimed, and I will quote again—that Israel is being solely blamed by these “left wing media outlets”.
CNN has reported, and will continue to report, on the Hamas rocket attacks that have claimed Israeli civilian lives. As they should.
Again: Find me one media outlet that solely blames Israel. You made the claim, back it up.
By AJC/DNC Management
January 8, 2009 8:49 AM | Link to this
I am not your guide to world depravity, DB, if you are shallow enough to believe the nonsense you sputter, why should I care?
By Crenshaw8
January 8, 2009 8:55 AM | Link to this
Read and reflect.
ARAB MANTRA
“It is time that Americans and Europeans realize that these teeming masses of Zionists who infest their cities and sit astride the arteries of their commerce are, in every sense of the word, aliens.”
This points up two rather disturbing realities: That Arab propaganda and it psychological warfare against Israel has broadened into an attack Jewish populations outside of Israel. It has, in effect, joined forces with anti-Semites, both from the extreme right and the extreme left to delegitimize Israel and the Jewish people and facilitate their destruction. Secondly, this Arab, European and Jewish left wing propaganda apparatus, sanctioned, as it is, by duly recognized governments which together form an influential political power bloc, has lent these local anti-Semitic efforts the aura of respectability.
Left-wing skinheads.
What do the Arabs hope to gain by this great effort and expense? Bluntly speaking: to bring about conditions that would facilitate the destruction of the State of Israel They concentrate most of their propaganda in the United States, Europe, the United Nations and Islamic nations. A lot of emphasis in recent years has been on the United States, because they feel that this country was the greatest single influence that contributed to the creation of Israel and that it still is the major force standing in the way of Israel’s destruction.
The Arabs, therefore, aim to neutralize the impact of America on the Middle East and, if possible, to draw her over to their side. This requires that the propaganda apparatus achieve the following effects: To drive a wedge between Israel and the American Jewish community; to alienate the Jew from the rest of America, and destroy his political and economic strength; and to convince the American people, and through them the American government, that it must adopt a pro-Arab, anti-Israel foreign policy.
By DB, Gwinnettian
January 8, 2009 9:02 AM | Link to this
Andy @ 8.49, it’s not about me, as much as you’d like it to be. You don’t know me, and you don’t know what I believe, any more than I know you or know what you truly believe.
All we have in this forum are our written assertions, and they’re either credible, or they’re not.
You’ve made a false claim that “left wing media outlets” are solely blaming Israel. You can’t back that up.
By Taxpayer
January 8, 2009 9:07 AM | Link to this
One group says war is not the answer, another says peace is not the answer, another says they started it, and yet another says no you started it. We’ve all seen year after year after year of on again-off again fighting, truces, invasion, cease-fire, rocket attacks, ground assaults, etc. Nothing has resolved the problems to date. There are approaches that will work but they require firm commitments from all parties and that is the farthest thing from the minds of some parties involved in this mess. In fact, for those involved who believe that they are doing God’s will, perhaps only death will end their fight. So, why do we all continue to ignore the reality of the situation — we are just going to have to accept their eternal fight or we are going to have to try something different, radically different. What’s it going to be?
By Gnarlyswine
January 8, 2009 9:11 AM | Link to this
Look at the past 50 years history - Israel has been very effective in what it has achieved with its assaults. Unlike the west which is constrained by fear of what other Nations think - Israel has done what it sees right for itself and its people. It provides a much bigger pause for its neighbours as a result. Its annoying that the world press hasnt seen the big picture - they are claiming attrocities and attacks on civilians in Gaza. Well the instant they put Hamas and there rockets in power they stopped being Civilians , they elected a group with only the purpose of waging war on the Israelis.
By ByteMe
January 8, 2009 9:12 AM | Link to this
Yes, Israel has closed its mutual border with Gaza limiting the flow of materials between the two countries.
What gets only infrequent mention in most news outlets is this: Egypt has a common border with Gaza and they also closed it when Hamas took over for the same reason Israel closed their border with Gaza. The Mediterranian Sea is one border of Gaza. Who is limiting the Palestinians from running their own commercial port operations?
Why is it Israel gets hung with blame for the border issue?
By DB, Gwinnettian
January 8, 2009 9:19 AM | Link to this
“Why is it Israel gets hung with blame for the border issue?”
I don’t know that it does because I’ve heard those infrequent mentions myself in the corporate media.
I think the better question is, why doesn’t the border issue get more attention, period? Why would Egypt restrict movement; doesn’t that make them somewhat complicit in the deaths of Gaza civilians if Egypt is restricting their movements?
By Mort Merkel
January 8, 2009 9:30 AM | Link to this
Why don’t we do the world a favor and cede Israel one of our lesser populated states?
By ByteMe
January 8, 2009 9:31 AM | Link to this
Like we did with the Indians? Do they get to open casinos too?
By mm
January 8, 2009 9:31 AM | Link to this
DB,
Manglement gets on this blog everyday and spouts lie after lie after lie. When confronted to offer up proof or facts, he cuts and pastes Am Spec or some other wingnut article.
I would give him credit if there was ever 1 ounce of truth to his rants, but there never is.
Manglement, you should go play on Wooten’s wingnut blog with the other crazies. They’re just like you.
By dadpowers
January 8, 2009 9:33 AM | Link to this
Mine is a terminology problem. Why use the term civilian? It implies that Israel is fighting a uniformed force, which I highly doubt. Likewise in Iraq and against the Taliban. They all look like civilians until they pull the trigger or blow themselves up. And once dead, they are all civilians again. Who can tell? Non-combatants would be more accurate. Still, once dead……?
By jasper
January 8, 2009 9:39 AM | Link to this
Let’s relocate Israel to southern Utah, similar climate and terrain, plus it already includes Zion National Park, and vacations to the Catskill’s would be a non-stop flight. We have the technology to move the western wall. Sure, conflict would start with the Mormons, limited to small arms fire, and we’d get to learn the yiddish word for polygamy. Oy vey!
By JAY BOOKMAN
January 8, 2009 9:40 AM | Link to this
Israel is blocking access from the sea, Byteme. Remember when Cynthia McKinney tried to bring in aid by boat?
By The Attorney/Surgeon Corporal
January 8, 2009 9:41 AM | Link to this
JAY
Try to recognize the diffence in the mindset between Hamas and Israel.
Israel, like the U.S., is not perfect but as I understand it, Hamas legalized crucifixion a few days back. We are talking here about entity who cannot be negotiated with any more than you would expect the police to negotiate with a murderous hostage taker (only long enough to get the police sniper a good shot).
In my opinion, there is an evil at work here (Hamas and others) that is beyond our grasp to even understand. It goes beyond our human realm.
Israel is unfortunately forced to beat them down as far as they can; they will come back; and beat them down again and again and again. It’s their only option until something else happens which I won’t go into now.
By Mort Merkel
January 8, 2009 9:41 AM | Link to this
Yes, that, and I hope, lots of delis.
By Ray
January 8, 2009 9:46 AM | Link to this
Fortunately for the Palestinians, Gaza is positioned at the far SW corner of Israel and not in close proximity to Tel Aviv. If Gaza were closer to main population centers in Israel, it would be dust by now or certainly not in the control of Hamas. With Lebanon getting into the fray now on the north, Israel will be fighting a two front war for survival. You can bet if Syria or Jordan had much of an army, the front would completely surround Israel, as it has for the last 50 yrs. The country is not 50 miles wide in some places, surrounded by high mountains and the ocean. The Golan and parts of the West Bank make great places for high ground attacks on Israel. Their survival depends on short term tactics unless the Arab world will relent and allow them to live in peace.
What’s your solution, Bookman?
By ByteMe
January 8, 2009 9:46 AM | Link to this
JAY: yes, but that was after they declared war on them. What about before that? Were they blocking all cargo ships from approaching Gaza during the most-recent “truce”? I really don’t know one way or the other on this point and it doesn’t get much play time.
By The Attorney/Surgeon Corporal
January 8, 2009 9:52 AM | Link to this
There is no **solution at this time anymore than we can’t solve murder, or child molestation or rape in the United States.
EVIL exists and the type that Hamas vomits out it the absolute worst.
You just continue to fight it as best you can.
By candide
January 8, 2009 10:05 AM | Link to this
There’s always the choice of exterminating the lot. This may become necessary; it should have been done 50 years ago.
By Taxpayer
January 8, 2009 10:05 AM | Link to this
If the Israelis were not opposed to moving again, they could probably buy a country such as Iceland or Greenland and work out something to accommodate the natives — a welfare program perhaps.
By Bud Wiser
January 8, 2009 10:13 AM | Link to this
The way I see and read it, these two factions, Jews and Arabs, have been at this since before Christ was born. They kill each other on a daily basis, hate so deep that they wake up thinking about it, and go to sleep thinking about it, then dream about it.
It’s sort of a 24/7/365 hate.
Simmering hatred came to a boil in 1948 with the artificial creation of Israel by the League of Nations (aka United Nations for the public school folks here). Many wars and conflicts since that time have changed nothing, only the weapons have changed.
Now they kill each other in greater numbers.
It’s all about the land.
I say we stay out of it, up to a point. Halt supplying Israel with weapons, let them make their own swords and knives. Warn the other Arab nations to stay out, or else.
And these “cease fires” to allow humanitarian aid to be delivered? Sounds like a perpetual ‘two minute warning’ in the NFL. Re feed, rearm, reload is all that is, people.
If they are going to fight, let them fight till one side has had enough, then they cry for a settlement. Maybe someone on either, or hopefully both, sides will evolve a brain and come to realize that peace may be a viable alternative. Or natural selection will make its own correction and let the strongest survive.
By getalife
January 8, 2009 10:16 AM | Link to this
I will have to wait for Joe the plumber’s report talking to Joe the Isrealis to get the real story.
I doubt he will talk to Joe the Palestinians but who needs that depressing story.
I don’t think any countries want our advice on winning wars unless it is President Clinton talking.
By JAY BOOKMAN
January 8, 2009 10:17 AM | Link to this
Yes, Byteme, the embargo has been in effect for quite a while now, well before the ceasefire ended.
By The Attorney/Surgeon Corporal
January 8, 2009 10:26 AM | Link to this
A lot will happen before this but in the end good will triumph over evil. There is hope …..
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart. (Jer. 3:17)
By Davo
January 8, 2009 10:30 AM | Link to this
Believe it or not, I know how to bring peace to the middle east. Satyagraha, nonviolence.
This worked in India, South Africa and in the US. The people of Gaza need someone to lead them toward that path. Once some media gets out of Israel maiming or killing ‘non-resisting’ palestine demonstrators it will only be a matter of time before world opinion shifts.
Pretty simplistic, I know. But it’s the best I can come up with…the alternatives don’t seem to be working for anyone,; including the US.
By Taxpayer
January 8, 2009 10:30 AM | Link to this
Evolution. Yes, that’s the answer. Let the species adapt or perish.
By ByteMe
January 8, 2009 10:36 AM | Link to this
JAY: thanks.
By david wayne osedach, san diego/ U.S.A.
January 8, 2009 10:53 AM | Link to this
If Hammas had more powerful rockets and could target Tel Aviv - do you think they would. If they had fighter jets do you think they would use them? Of course! It is all out war.
By Mrs. Godzilla
January 8, 2009 10:55 AM | Link to this
Davo
Please watch This Video
Palestinian woman stands up to Israeli troops
By Copyleft
January 8, 2009 10:58 AM | Link to this
Corporal: It’s nice to think that good will eventually triumph over evil in this troubled region.
Now for the hard question: Who’s “good” in this situation? and who’s “evil”?
Simple answers only work for simple minds….
By RealityKing
January 8, 2009 11:23 AM | Link to this
If my neighbors elected hooligans who were shooting at my family…, I’d invade too.
By T.J.
January 8, 2009 11:29 AM | Link to this
the young woman in mrs. godzilla’s video should be asking her caretakers, hamas, why they fire rockets on israeli citizens. she should be asking why hamas insists on putting her people in harms way when they launch their attacks from civilian enclaves.
By Bosch
January 8, 2009 11:29 AM | Link to this
Reality King,
And if my neighbor put barricades around my house making it virtually impossible for me to move about effectively making my yard a prison camp, I’d hurl a bomb or two at them when I could get my hands on them.
By Billy
January 8, 2009 11:44 AM | Link to this
The attitude of “Hamas is evil” is a gross oversimplification of the situation and does nothing to advance things toward anything remotely resembling peace. The claims of the media solely blaming Israel? Ridiculous. They just report the claimed casualty figures. There is no subjective argument made, no conclusion stated. Andy’s cited passages don’t even claim that the dead were civilians. They quote an organization as saying the dead were civilians.
If we look at the history, we’ll see that Jewish Zionists made calls for the overthrow of the British overlords and sometimes used terrorism in attempts to accomplish that goal. We’ll see that an ethnic cleansing took place to make room for the Israeli state. We’ll see that Palestinian Muslims, Jews, and Christians were living in relative peace for a while prior to colonialism and Zionism. And we’ll see that Palestinian Muslims, since the formation of Israel, have been…well…oppressed by Israel.
Jimmy Carter caught a ton of flack for the “Apartheid” bit in his book. I read several articles, though, written by Israeli Jews, that claimed his analysis was spot-on. “Jews Only” roads? Really? That’s not Apartheid? What about when the roads have no signs stating their “Jews Only” designation and Palestinians caught driving on them (even if they have no way of knowing they are for Jews only) have their cars seized by the Israeli forces policing them? Palestinians living in Israel are subjected to Israeli law yet have no representation in government. Those living immediately outside Israel are still subjected to Israel’s whims. Of course they elected Hamas; no other group has the finances or infrastructure to provide basic services. Like Ray said earlier — “…you can only push a determined people so far when their survival is at stake.”
I had the same idea as Jasper: give Israel part of Utah. I hadn’t thought about Zion National Park, but they’d have the desert they’re used to, the Great Salt Lake is comparable to the Dead Sea, and they’d be surrounded by religious nuts. They’d never know they’d even left Israel!
But, seriously, Israel has to be where it is. And the Palestinians have to live where they do. Because that strip of land, one of the most Godforsaken places on the planet, is also the most holy. God wants them there. Religion is the problem here. It was religion that inspired the mass suffering of the Crusades, religious bias and bigotry that harshly restricted the lives of European Jews for centuries, religious bigotry that led to the Holocaust, religion that led to the desire to form a (theocratic) Jewish state, religion that justifies that state as well as violent means of destroying it to this day.
I resent the fact that my tax dollars go to the subsidization of a theocratic state occupying a tiny strip of land that has no value other than the emotional attachment of religious people.
By tcoach
January 8, 2009 11:53 AM | Link to this
Bosch I think most of us would retaliate against anyone who tried to falsely imprison us.
Why not hurl some rockets at Egypt though?
They are keeping them pinned in against these attacks.
Hamas knows they need Egypt though and therefor will not anger them until they can no longer use Egypt.
They want the destruction of Israel and that is why they chose to only launch rockets at them and not all who are putting them in the prison camp.
By RealityKing
January 8, 2009 11:59 AM | Link to this
A fence on your property line is not a barricade blocking in your neighbors, it’s one keeping them out of your yard. I have one. And go ahead.., throw a bomb over it. I double dare you.
By AJC/DNC Management
January 8, 2009 12:04 PM | Link to this
By Billy January 8, 2009 11:44 AM The attitude of “Hamas is evil” is a gross oversimplification of the situation and does nothing to advance things toward anything remotely resembling peace. The claims of the media solely blaming Israel? Ridiculous. They just report the claimed casualty figures. There is no subjective argument made, no conclusion stated. Andy’s cited passages don’t even claim that the dead were civilians. They quote an organization as saying the dead were civilians.
The media uses casualty figures provided to them by terrorists and terrorist supporting entities.
And you are exactly right, the pinko media is calling dead terrorists “civilians” for a reason.
It is not my fault you are too naive to figure this out.
By RealityKing
January 8, 2009 12:14 PM | Link to this
A Palestinian school full of dead terrorists is equalivent than an Israeli school full of dead children…, for some.
By Fly_on_the_Wall
January 8, 2009 12:26 PM | Link to this
I like Jasper’s comments. “…and we’d get to learn the yiddish word for polygamy. Oy vey!” Too funny!
By Chad Harris
January 8, 2009 12:37 PM | Link to this
Jay what is your solution to what is really a conflict between a country Iran whose rulers the mullahs want to win a struggle between fundamental and primitive Islam and modernity that is the tone in Israel? How do you propose to stop the cycle of Missle—->Bloback?
I read Jay’s column 5 times. I don’t understand the point. Jay says what he has said many times, and all of us know. Of course an invasion isn’t the only answer. But what Jay doesn’t do besides say “hey—there’s a problem going on right now in Gaza in particular, and in the Middle East in general” is what he suggests to end the viscious repetitiive cycle.
As long as Hamas in the North and Hezbollah in the South act as pawns and surrogates for Iran and Syria they are going to continue using Russian Katyusha rocket launchers to send missles into Israel, that are bigger and able to hit any major urban center.
So I’d like to ask Jay what the Bookman initiatives for peace are?
Throughout history no arab nation has stepped up to do the things *in their own countries or for Palestinians or Gazans to promote economic stability and most importantly education for citizens of the West Bank, Gaza or t heir own people.
In The Kingdom, Jordan, Egypt and a panoply of oil rich nations, only token nods are made for the slum dwellers to improve their status or give them any skills to do so. Their primitive attitudes towards the education of women contribute profoundly.
I’d point out that Egypt has sealed the Southern border of Gaza. They aren’t letting anyone out for humanitarian or other reasons. They aren’t accepting one refugee across the border. But they are facilitating missle and weapons transport via tunnels from Egypt into Gaza—possibly hundreds of them.
What does the Bookman plan propose to do about these tunnels. Something needs to end them or the cycle I call “Missle-Blowback” will continue.
Iran wants hegemony in the Middle East for Iran. By their definition that implies the destruction of Israel who is in the way of that.
As Tom Friedman pointed out the other day, the concept of Arab-Israeli peace initative has been replaced by Iran-Israeli conflict because that’s really what’s going on here with Hamas and Hezbollah the puppet surrogates for Iran and Syria who supply manpower including soldiers, weapons, and funding.
It’s not just that the Arab states are doing next to nothing to resove this Iranian-Israeli conflict, but the player that wants primacy by destroying Israel is largely non-Arab.
Hamas and Hezbollah don’t even recognize Israel’s right to exist.
What is the Bookman initiative’s response to this systemic impediment to a solution?
Hamas and Hezbollah acting at the bidding of Iran have an educational vector in place for Palestinian kids. It’s called Suicide Bomber University, awarding a degree that graduates a dedicated suicide bomber.
Mr. Friedman suggests a two state solution with ” the Palestinians getting all of the West Bank, Gaza and Arab sectors of East Jerusalem, then you have to hope for the weakening of Hamas.”
I wouldn’t put a scintilla of hope in that suggestion. Hamas (and really Iran, Hezbollah and Syria) wants to replace Israel, take the land, kill all its people and then grow a primitive Islamic fundamentalist state on the land Israel occupies.
What’s the Bookman initiative as to that proposal keeping in mind that Western educated King Abdullah of Jordan and the Kingdom’s multimillionaires and billionaires (who claim their blood doesn’t have the same hemaglobin as Mr. Bookman’s but has “royal hemaglobin” which I never found in the index of a hematology book). Again they are doing nothing to promote peace, and everything to ensure that they and their elite cadre and their children run things and corner all the money, toys, and luxuries.
Abdullah and the Saudis as a metaphor for other oil rich nations only get worried when their entitlement to rule is threatened.
Mr. Friedman further wrote this and it is chilling:
“Israel has proved that it can and will uproot settlements, as it did in Gaza. Hamas’s rocket attacks pose an irreversible threat. They say to Israel: “From Gaza, we can hit southern Israel. If we get the West Bank, we can rocket, and thereby close, Israel’s international airport — anytime, any day, from now to eternity.” How many Israelis will risk relinquishing the West Bank, given this new threat?”
By Chad Harris
January 8, 2009 1:06 PM | Link to this
Shorter:
Tom Friedman, who has spent much of his career studying the Middle East instability and spent a good deal of time in Israel says that there has to be a two state solution meaning Israel cedes Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians.
The Uber or Mother of All Catch 22s of that is that once that occurs, they become in effect Iran—a state that is bent on destroying Israel as quickly as possible that would then be able to decimate any Israeli city or airport by launching Iranian Soviet and French missles. They wouldn’t need ground forces with those strategic positions.
The US installed a powerless government Fatah with powerless Abass as head. That has been the sole initiative of Bush-Rice for peace.
While Israel launched the Gaza attack, more than 100 Iraqis who were trying to promote peace among Sunis, Shiites, and the Kurds were blown to bits by Islamic suicie bombers nearly completely funded by the state that would control the territory Israel would cede in a two state solution.
I have not heard a peep out of Bush or Condi or any other nation’s leader about this. Nothing from Jordan. Nothing from the Kingdom.
I would expect to hear something out of Obama and his Secretary of State, as much as I regret the qualifications of who that will probably be, but they are understandably remaining very silent right now allowing the 12 day and leaving administration to do whatever it is they are doing, which is essentially going to be nothing.
We had the leader of France travel to the region to make whatever efforst he can while continuing to sell the missles to Iran that help fuel this debacle and continuing cycle.
Secretary Rice declined to go to the region.
And I don’t think if she had, anything positive would have come because Palestinians and Iran know they have boxed Bush in, and don’t respect him or Rice and know they are through.
A major difference for any new administration whatever party it would be, and I’m told it’s a Democratic one, is that they have time.
Biden is in “South Asia” or someplace else right now. The Bush team wonders what the hell he’s doing there, and I’d concur with them . Biden allowed himself to be sworn in as Senator (why I don’t know but it allowed the picture of Jill to carry a 15 pound bible and stick it in Cheney’s chest). No one doubts he will be functioning as the VP.
Biden is taking a motly crew with him: Senators Jack Reed (D-R.I.), Susan Collins (R-Maine) and Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) of the Senate Armed Services Committee, as well as his successor as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, John Kerry (D-Mass.).
The itinerary is as secret as the objective of the trip.
By Bosch
January 8, 2009 1:12 PM | Link to this
tcoach,
That’s true, but Egyptian soldiers do not stand at the barricades with automatic weapons.
And as someone noted eariler, there aren’t roads in Palestine marked “Egyptian only” roads.
That border, however, is probably how they get guns though. I’ve always thought it strange how they have such little supplies in Gaza, but yet, have guns.
I’m not saying Hamas and the Palestinians don’t deserve some of what they get. They elected these thugs, and they did fire first. But, I’ve always felt that Israel screaming they are the innocent victim in all this is a little absurd.
By Chad Harris
January 8, 2009 1:26 PM | Link to this
Bosch—
Weapons including rockets and launchers and anti-Aircraft missles got through because Egyptians looked the other way at the roads and scores of tunnels on the border. The addition of anti-aircraft missles is a huge threat to Israel’s choppers, and civilian aircraft as well.
Right now after the Israeli withdrawal in 2005, six times the amount of these weapons have gotten into Gaza and the hands of Hamas (Iran puppet) compared with 2005 when Israel controlled the Gaza-Egyptian border
Shin Bet has irrefutable pictures of this transport.
The Egyptians are very supportive of Iran’s initiative using Hamas and Hezbollah as puppets in every possible way.
Mubarak pays lip service to telling Hamas and Hebollah to stop the missles but he allows the missles to get through intentionally. He’s not an agent for peace at all and never has been. He also runs what is essentially a totalitarian government in Egypt.
All of the Hamas sympathizers who are screaming for Israel to open roads completely ignore that the reason they have the chokehold on the roads is to prevent weapons from leaking in. As long as Egypt controls that border along with Hamas, there is free flow of Iranian and Syrian weapons willingly sold by Russia and France.
By The Attorney/Surgeon Corporal
January 8, 2009 1:28 PM | Link to this
Good = Israeli forces defend their country from months of rocket attacks against Hamas with precision weaponry and do their best to not target civilians (who have had plenty of time to evacuate to the coast).
Evil = A terrorist organization called Hamas whose ultimate goal is to annihilate the State of Israel shoots thousands of rockets into heavily populated areas of Israel in violation of a truce. While they are at it, they approve a new law authorizing crucifixion as a form of capital punishment for crimes against Islam.
By tcoach
January 8, 2009 1:38 PM | Link to this
Bosch, do not get me wrong was never saying Israel is innocent of any wrong doing. Usually with a war or a fight both or all parties did something wrong to initiate the conflict or could have done something to defuse it and chose not too.
By Bosch
January 8, 2009 1:39 PM | Link to this
Chad,
As I said, I think that’s where the guns come from - and I don’t think there is one single Hamas sympathizer on this blog.
By citizen
January 8, 2009 1:57 PM | Link to this
I would venture to say that if Israel was to be annihilated by the end of 2009, by the end of 2010, the Palestinians would be in a civil war with their different factions.
By Chad Harris
January 8, 2009 2:01 PM | Link to this
Bosch—
I wasn’t being critical of you at all, just detailing a little bit where lots of the weaponry is coming from—not the only source either—it’s coming from by sea as well and didn’t for a moment think anyone is a Hamas sympathizer I’ve seen here. I’m also not criticizing Jay at all for saying “hey there’s a terrific problem that threatens everyone in this powder keg” but many experts seem to say there must be the two state/cede thos territories to Palestine and that immediately gives Hamas, Hebolah and their puppeteers Iran and Syria the tools to destroy Israel.
There is no credible iniative for peace in the destroy Israel mindset of these other players and everything I’ve read and heard indicates that some essential participants (the other Arab countries in the Middle East I singled out) are doing next to nothing to facilitate peace or put any pressure on Iran and Syria.
I don’t pretend to have the solution to this quagmire but whatever it is Iran is going to have to be paradigm shifted to want peace. Ironically most of their people and most of their university students absolutely do, but they aren’t in control yet. They also are pretty positively disposed to the US but haven’t been anamoured of the current administration.
By Hillbilly Deluxe
January 8, 2009 2:35 PM | Link to this
As long as one side wants to fight you only have two choices, fight or give in. It will take a greater mind than mine to figure out how to change that.
By Billy
January 8, 2009 2:38 PM | Link to this
AJC/DNC — Again, a perfect example of right-wing hysteria over supposed media bias. I don’t think you’re upset over the source of the numbers. I think you’re upset that they chose to mention casualties at all. Of course, you might tell me what you think about things, but I might not believe that’s what you think because, hey — your perspective on what you believe is biased.
My point, naive though it may be, is that figures are not inherently incorrect just because they come from a Hamas-sympathetic or even Hamas-run organization and the media are not being biased by running those figures provided they preface them with “So-and-so says” and aren’t withholding more credible figures. We know any claims from Hamas have to be taken with a grain of salt. Shouldn’t the “We report — you decide” mantra apply here?
By LCn34
January 8, 2009 3:47 PM | Link to this
Iran controls Hezbollah and Hamas. Egypt has their own headache in the Muslim Brotherhood who has yet to make any meaningful inroads into the political process but Mubarak is wary of their efforts to do just that. The last thing Mubarak wants is to open his borders to an onslaught of radicals who could succeed in overthrowing his democratic party. That’s why Hamas fights so hard to gain access. The overthrow of Mubarak is their goal. Another is to garner sympathy from within Egypt. The Brotherhood is fighting against democracy. Democracy will fall when the Mubarak regime can no longer provide the essentials to their citizenry. The hoards of impoverished Palestinians under Hamas’s incompetent governance will put a strain on resources. That is when organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah move in to rule the oppressed with their radicalization of Islam.
By George
January 8, 2009 10:10 PM | Link to this
The Gaza strip needs to be eliminated. Tell all the “palestinians”, who are actually Egyptian, or Jordanian, or Syrian, to go back to their countries. Get bulldozers and push all their rubble and rockets and stink into the sea. Use it for a sea wall or a reef. Life is about conquerors and the conquested. Get it done.
By Copyleft
January 9, 2009 7:56 AM | Link to this
So you propose genocide and conquest through crushing military force.
How long have you been living in Serbia?