Home > Jay Bookman > Archives > 2008 > December > 29 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USWhat are Israel’s goals?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The Israeli response to aggression by Hamas appears to have been a success, with large numbers of Hamas members and top officials killed or driven underground. Again, Israel had every right and indeed an obligation to respond to attacks on its people, and it has done so effectively.
However, success could turn into failure with an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza or even an expansion of the bombing campaign that begins to inflict more civilian casualties. And unfortunately, that seems to be where Israel is heading, with tanks and troops massing at the border and Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak telling the Knesset that the military was fighting a “war to the bitter end against Hamas.”
Israel should not allow its overwhelming military dominance to seduce it into believing in a military solution to Hamas. No such solution exists, and trying to impose one can only make matters worse, as Israel should have learned from its repeated experiences in Lebanon.
So the question is one of goals: If Israel seeks a renewed ceasefire with Hamas, it may have created the circumstances in which that goal can be negotiated. No one can quibble with a goal of stopping missiles from landing in its territory.
However, if Israel’s goal is really to solve its Hamas problem once and for all, it will fail. There is no conceivable mechanism by which that can be achieved at gunpoint.
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Comments
By The Corporal
December 29, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
Israel should not stop until they have secured their population from rocket attack.
They have already learned you cannot negotiate with Hamas anymore than you can negotiate with cancer.
By jasper
December 29, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
Hamas will be the instrument that Iran uses to launch a nuclear attack against Israel. If your Israel, why wait for that?
By Bosch
December 29, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
My dad is proof positive that you can negotiate with cancer.
While I am in agreement with Jay, that Hamas brought this attack on themselves (from previous thread) and Israel is right in defending themselves, Israel time and time again has shown they are like a bully that provokes the small little kid to throw the first punch and then justifies a brutal beating by the small punch.
As a commentator put it earlier, Israel is losing it’s PR campaign as the poor victim.
By orbit
December 29, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this
Why is everyone keep on talking about “negotiating”? Such idea doesn’t exist with Hamas. Come on people, haven’t we learned that yet?
Israel has every right and an obligation to get those who attack them.
Hamas is like a “little brother” who hits and an older brother, and after getting a knock back runs to momy crying about it.
Sadly, everyone is like my parents. Because who usually gets the blame? the older brother! why? Because he “should know better than to fight back, etc…”
Give me a break people!
By Paul
December 29, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
Israel learned from their Lebanon experience - reliance on air power and a stated reluctance to use ground forces cost them dearly.
However, Hamas is not Hezbollah. But a similarity in both is ideology - not the standard material power basis of conventional militaries. One does not defeat an ideology diffused through a civilian population, with each new generation indoctrinated, through military force as now practiced. An asymetrical enemy requires an asymetrical response.
Israel carefully planned this operation - their intel was first-rate and their targeting packages were effective. If they hit the targets they wanted (read: kill large numbers of mid-to-top level personnel) then a major objective - crippling Hamas - has been achieved and a ground operation could be counterproductive. What would the objective be?
Will the Obama Administration pursue new strategies, seeking the support of the international community while marginalizing provocative states (Iran) who are working in their national interest, not the “world’s”? The campaign’s over. “Change” isn’t easy.
By Justifier
December 29, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this
The only thing Israel did “effectively” was to initially provoke the rocket attacks by senselessly killing Palestinians. After the rocket attacks, Israel deceptively attempts to establish some basis for their recent immoral and excessive attack which has cost the lives of numerous women and children. What’s more is that Israel insists that it acts “defensively,” despite its leaders publicly stating that they aim to teach the Palestinians a “lesson.”
By AJC/DNC Management
December 29, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this
Remember when the goony lib media said that Israel was “washed up?”
What an excellent opportunity to prove them wrong!
Go get them boys!
By Retired Soldier
December 29, 2008 6:15 PM | Link to this
Sorry Jay - but airpower alone will not result in secuirty for Israel. Just ask the critics of SECDEF Rumsfeld - whom ignored ACoS Shinseki’s call for double the amount of ground forces in Iraq. Rumsfeld went for a smaller groundforce backed by airpower - and we all know the result. Also - Clinton’s cruise missile attacks certainly didn’t stop Al Qiada from attacking again in 9/11.
And - as Jasper notes, the Israelis MUST be concerned about what’s coming next (Biological Agents? Chemically-tipped rockets? Nuclear bombs carried in vehicles/boats?). Just killing the few Hamas leaders you can hit by air before they scatter will only drive them back underground, in dispersed sites - where airpower fails.
Short term ground-air attacks have also not worked. If they drive the Hamas out of all of Gaza, they will gain some time (months? a year?) - but know Hamas survivors will eventually show up elsewhere. And - that act will create a diplomatic backlash against Israel - while requiring far more soldiers to keep them out of occupied zones for long periods of time (which will bankrupt them).
Then, consider that the Israelis have little chance of success by further pursuit of a “diplomatic solution”. They have little chance of eliminating Hamas support from Gazan citizens - or Iran. So - they must either gain the rest of the world’s support to a) Stop Hamas from shooting/rocket-bombing Israeli citizens AND b) Stop Iran from developing nuclear warheads - or they must take drastic measures to eliminate BOTH as threats. Yet, despite repated rocket barrages by Hamas rockets over the years [killing their citizens/children], the world’s newspapers are now calling them the Bullies - or call for “solutions” that have NOT brought them security. Also key is the fact that not one government has sent/provided any troops in to stop the fighting. The Israelis also know that Iran will continue to use diplomacy to delay such responses - and that there are far more countries WITH nuclear weapons that have gained them under the UN’s Non-Poliferation Treaty that those that got nuclear weapons before this “unified diplomatic approach”. Finally Hamas and Iran have clearly called for the destruction of Israel - with Iran’s President stating that he’s willing to lose half his own countrymen to do so. And - Prez-elect Obama hasn’t made any statements that would offer Israel any hope of an imminent improvement in their situation.
Bottom Line - To the Israelis (and Hamas), this is a fight for survival, without any clear-cut “solution” that I can see [realistically]. The Israelis have long adopted a “never again” policy when it comes to such fights; while Hamas members view death while fighting Israelis as a guaranteed ticket to heaven. The Israelis have nuclear missiles/bombs, while Iran has Chemical/ Biological weapons - and is allegedly providing the very rockets that Hamas is shooting at Israel today. Things could get VERY ugly, REALLY fast. Half-hearted airstrikes are probably not going to stop the fighting at this point - the “blood” is up on both sides.
As to Bosch’s comment about ‘negotiating with cancer’ - the last time I checked, ALL reasonably successful treatments seek to KILL OFF cancerous cells - and keep them from returning. I haven’t seen anyone be able to do that just by talking - or by leaving those cells alive. While it is regretable, if someone is bound and determined to kill you - you sometimes have no choice BUT to fight to the death.
By Paul
December 29, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
Retired Soldier 6:15
[[Rumsfeld went for a smaller groundforce backed by airpower - and we all know the result. ]]
IMHO Rumsfeld was correct - air power and a more tailored ground force than Desert Storm destroyed the Iraqi military in short order. We did not need the essentially rehashed Army plan from Desert Storm.
Where Rumsfeld, DoD, the planners and generals, State and Intel services blew it was seeing the situation after the classic defeat. That was Phase I - and none of those guys wanted to consider Phase II, where we had all the trouble.
I do agree things could get ugly. Sometime. Chemical/biological agents. Possible nukes a few years down the road. Pres-elect Obama has already resurrected the “attack on our allies (Israel) is an attack on us calling for like retaliation” concept.
But remember from his campaign he called for Hamas to renounce terrorism, live by past agreements and failing that, for the international community to isolate them. He does have his work cut out - especially in gaining support with some elements within his Party when he shows he meant what he said.
By getalife
December 29, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
Looks like the days of being attacked and not responding by unleashing hell are over.
The message to Hamas and Georgia is:
Don’t start none and there will not be none.
As far as cancer, it usually comes back to get you.
By Bosch
December 29, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
Road Scholar,
Yeah, but if the Israelis and Hamas want to fight to the death, so bet it - that’s their business, not ours, or anyone elses.
By The Numantine
December 29, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
If Israelis want to stop the rockets they need to leave Palestinian territory. Sderot and surrounding territory are Palestinian territory by the only map that has any legal validity—the UN Partition Map of 1947.
Let Israelis stop their whining about rockets and bring their illegal colonists back into borders they were granted and stop killing Palestinian civilians.
By JAY BOOKMAN
December 29, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this
Only peace can provide security, Soldier, and even then it would be a tenuous security for Israel. But tenuous would be better than none.
As you state, airpower alone can’t provide it. But as you then go on to explain, ground forces can’t do it either. The only feasible solution is political, and that is a long way off if attainable at all
As to the cancer analogy, you don’t want to create more cells than you kill. Another ground invasion and perhaps occupation of Gaza would do exactly that. According to UN figures (from 2000) more than 63 percent of the Gaza population was 25 or younger.
As Petraeus keeps preaching, some wars cannot be won by killing.
By Paul
December 29, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this
Numantine
I believe the 1947 General Assembly proposal was rejected out of hand by the Arab states. Besides which, I believe it would require Syria to cede some territory. Which isn’t likely.
One has to change the mindset. Colonel Hackworth (was highest decorated living soldier before his death) observed - in the Kosovo region - to change the mindset you have to kill all the grandmothers, as they are the ones who take the infants into their arms and begin repeating all the hatred an atrocity/victim stories. Was tongue-in-cheek but you get the point.
The Gaza parallel is the religious fanatic. We’ve had some success in Afghanistan with establishing schools outside the authority of the religious authorities. Provides a counter to the madrassas. I’d suggest that as a top UN priority.
Then again, as Saudi Arabia is atop provider of money and texts to the madrassas, teaching of hatred of Jews and destruction of Israel, maybe we could exert a little effort there, too.
By @@
December 29, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this
Within Hamas their are those more concerned with governing as opposed to maintaining the movement’s original militant course. I would compare them to the Awakening Councils in Iraq.
Israel nor Egypt has any interest in shouldering the burden of Gaza. Egypt has said as much. A battered albeit not totally defeated Hamas will have an even tougher time taking care of their people, er… captive audience. The militants within Hamas are lousy administrators….time and the IDF will determine whether Hamas’s abilities as crusaders for “the cause” will win them more enemies than friends.
Israel’s grand strategy for containing the Palestinian territories has been to hive off the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip for the Egyptians to worry about while financially integrating the Fatah-controlled West Bank.
As I mentioned on a previous thread, Netanyahu is winning favor in the polls. Both we and Hamas know what Netanyahu is capable of.
He’s a no-nonsense kinda guy.
By **"The Corporal"**
December 29, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
This is a classic Catch-22 if there ever was one.
1) The last thing Israel should ever do is to allow a Palestinian State on their border.
2) However, they will eventually and unfortunately be forced to acquiesce to that.
3) Under no condition should that state be allowed to have a standing army with tanks, artillery, aircraft, etc.
4) To prevent that military buildup, the U.N. should enforce the rules.
5) The impotent U.N. will never do that as they are controlled by anti-Israel influences.
6) Therefore, the struggle for existance by Israel against overwhelming Arab/Muslim odds in the region will continue.
7) Keep in mind Israel has lots of nukes and their motto is NEVER AGAIN.
P.S. If you want to know the rest of the story read the last book in the Bible. Many of you will scoff but we’ll see…….
By Taxpayer
December 29, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
Meanwhile, the sane amongst humans went on to perfect space travel and eventually moved on to begin exploration of the last frontier. As the last ship departed for destinations unknown, the children of God were seen still killing each other just like they had been taught to do generation after generation.
By Kevin
December 29, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this
Cynthia is now going to Gaza? Haven’t those poor people suffered enough.
I’d really hate to see something bad happen to Cynthia while she’s there.
Cough cough.
By The Corporal
December 29, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
Taxpayer
Reading between the lines on your 8:31.
I wish I had an answer for you (and me). Really, you are asking the ultimate question.
Why would a Holy God allow sin into His universe. I hope someday to know the answer but that might take having the mind of the Creator which is impossible. In any case, this is where the faith part comes in ………….
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
In the meantime, I wish you well on your quest for truth.
By AJC/DNC Management
December 29, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this
WASHINGTON, Dec 29 (Reuters) - Israel’s attacks on Gaza could test Hillary Clinton’s mettle as the next top U.S. diplomat mediating between Israelis and Palestinians, blah, blah, blah.
WASHINGTON — As President George W. Bush’s term comes to a close, the United States has the world’s dominant economy and its most powerful military. Yet its global influence is in decline, blah, blah, blah.
I got an idea for a new blog, how about we discuss the way the pinkos are making everything seem ten times worse than it really is so Lord High Dimwit and his merry band of morons can swoop down and “restore order,” like some lame cartoon superman?
All the campaign talk of the Great Depression, a Vietnam-like war, and our shredded Constitution will now thankfully subside as the Obama administration assumes office and solves problems with conciliation, dialogue, and multilateral wisdom, rather than shrillness, unilateralism, preemption, and my-way-or-the-highway dogmatism. We will hear that, by historical levels, unemployment is still not that bad, that GDP growth is not historically all that low, and that deficits, inflation, interest rates, and housing starts are all within manageable parameters. “Depression” will transmogrify into “recession” which in turn by July will be a “downturn” and by year next an “upswing” on its way to boom times.
Oh yeah, you libs don’t want to discuss all that.
I forgot.
Really though, I’m gonna miss the old KILLER SUPERPOWER RUSSIA, BOO! when they are returned to their present hollowed out, tinpot dictatorship with no more oil riches to animate the corpse, and be sure to watch for yourself as America reasserts it’s world dominance on Jan. 20th at midnite, almost as though by magic, well, according to the Oblahmasan slavish media sycophants.
Funny though, how we really will be the hollowed out, corrupt, third world country with the pinko media animating the corpse, hahaha, we all have a good laugh then, won’t we?
At least until China calls it’s bet.
ew
By RB from Gwinnett
December 29, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this
Jay, what is the specific number of human lives Israel should allow to be killed by hamas rockets before they get fed up with it and stop the t**-for-tat resistance you think they should employ? Give me a number. Is it 500, 5000, 50000? At what point do they grow tired of having their busses bombed by these terrorists and remove the maggots from the face of the earth? We will be needing a number, Jay, because the body counts have been mounting and at some point the game has to change. If you’re the man in charge watching your people be slaughtered instead of a mindless hack at a 2-bit rag, what’s the point of doing something more to stop it?
I still say, if you see this conflict on the side of the Israelies, you’re a Christian. If you see it on the side of the palestinians, you’re going to be left behind on judgement day. There is no middle ground. Which side are you on?
By AJC/DNC Management
December 29, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this
Oh my goodness, what hacks these people really are-
But the Emanuel didn’t know Blagojevich was looking for something in return, and the conversations were “totally appropriate and acceptable,” according to incoming White House lawyer Greg Craig, who conducted the investigation and wrote the report.
Hahahahahahahaha-
Gregory B. Craig’s friends were perplexed two months ago when he gave up one of the most prestigious jobs in Washington to take one of the most troublesome: Why descend from the rarefied aerie of foreign policy into the squalid mess of a sex scandal?
Even Craig — who’ll be in the game today as President Clinton’s designated “quarterback” when the House Judiciary Committee opens its impeachment hearings — wasn’t eager for the new assignment.-1998
ew
By The Corporal
December 29, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this
Based on her past combat history, I bet when Hillary goes to Israel she will say she was under attack starting at Andrews Air Force Base.
By JAY BOOKMAN
December 29, 2008 10:58 PM | Link to this
RB, if you want to ask a civil question in a civil manner, I would be happy to respond.
But act like a jerk, and no.
By Chad Harris
December 29, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this
I haven’t read the comments but I will later. I see an analogy in the Israel Hmass/Hezbollah conflicts and the Iraq/US involvement and of course they are connected. There is hardly a military solution to a stable Iraq either.
Richard Engle appearing on Rachel Madow suggested that the new administration work on a grand land assignment plan as he drew 3 red circles around Gaza strip, the Golan Heights and the West Bank.
I meant to note last night that in this whole cascade of Middle East Peace processes through various Presidents beginning with Jimmy Carter and Sadat, there has been minimal involvement of the several Arab countries at all. I mean countries like Jordan and Egypt after Sadat for example. People are livid in the streets in Egypt and Jordan, but there is total silence from their governments which is par for the course.
And while if King Abdullah and his wife Lisa show up in Washington they would be the toast of any party in Georgetown, they basically do little or nothing for their people with the exception of a ceremonial visit type of photo op at a children’s hospital.
There needs to be an attempt by the US at a cohesive plan, and I don’t see a scintilla of leadership out of Bush and Condi and this current State Deparment and I never have.
I firmly don’t believe unless Hamas and Hezbollah are destroyed, there will be any kind of stability or settlement. The trouble with that is it’s pretty impossible.
As Engle makes clear, there is a force of about 30,000 that calls itself Hamass. About 10-15000 of those are more dedicated and better trained and armed “Hamass security forces” and the rest are civilians who fight in times like these are may help to launch a missle from time to time.
Just as in Iraq, there aren’t clear uniformed armies although when I hear the simplistic Lindsay Graham/McCain mantra tht we have to “win” in Iraq (without beginning ever to define what “victory” means, I believe they think it’s like the Georgia Florida game with different color uniforms, different coaches, and different athletic programs and that “USA USA” no man’s man would walk onto a football field and think about compromising the final score or going for a tie.
If someone ever sees a Republican Seantor define “winning in Iraq give me a holler.
If someone ever sees the Arab nations significantly contributing to a peace process in the Middle East (because I haven’t) give me a holler.
If someeone ever can explain to me what Royal Blood is that makes Abdullah a King, and Lisa his wife a Queen who used to work for Apple, give me a holler.
If someone ever sees the oil rich Arab nations concentrating resources and money in the bellshaped curve of their people rather than a ruling elite and their homeboys and homegirls, please give me a holler.
By Chad Harris
December 29, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this
RB from Gwinette—
I get your frustration at a scenario that’s been repeated now for years. But what plan would you offer—I think that’s what Jay is getting at and keep in mind that again, Hamass and Hezbollah aren’t clearly defined armies. Many of them look like civilians because they are.
And many of them are people shuntted in or permanatly placed there from Iran and a gamut of other Arab countries.
So what would you do now if you had unlimited armed forces and the most sophisticated weaponry possible to deploy there, (no one has the first) to break the cycle. What would be your plan to get peace and stability in this area? What is it you want Israel to do right now? What do you want to see from the rest of the Middle Eastern countries and what do you want to see from the US—given that there isn’t going to be a stability or peace initiative out of the Bush administration with about 22 days to go until the Inauguration.
I don’t understand your comment that if you see this on the side of the Israelis you’re a Christian. Most American Jews see this on the side of the Israelis and most American Christians see this on the side of the Israelis.
The Israelis have taken a defensive posture during war and peace since 1948 in my view, and they’ve been a lot more patient that the US would be if the vast population of the US started this country seeking refuge from a Holocaust enviroment not to mention other oprressive environments throughout the Jews’ history.
By Dogs Against Management
December 29, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this
I hope Kevin gets a scabies reinfection.
By Chad Harris
December 29, 2008 11:41 PM | Link to this
Correction AJC yada yada—
As we countdown Bush taking a hike, America is in an early depression and its military is in tatters and the Army isn’t making its quotas in any way shap or form.
The Army has lowered all of its standards and still recurits a fraction of what it needs. The parents and the kids are blunt:
They don’t want to serve in Iraq any more than Cheney or Bush or any of their family wants to serve in Iraq to become fish in a barrel.
Greg Craig is comming from the halls of Willians and Conolly, not the State Department, this time around. He put Hill and Bill up in their first love shack for $65 a month as a fellow student at Yale, and he worked against Hill early on in Obama’s campaign.
I know you must have a point in your Blago references somewhere—I just can’t discern what it is. You never say explicitly what evidence you have or who or what you think has done whatever it is that has you hot and bothered.
I suppose you think it’s more Fitz-Obama conspiracy that Fitz waved off the Impeachment Committee from subpoenas for anyone in Team Obama or Jesse Jr. or anyone remotely connected with a possible trial if there is ever an indictment from Fitz before he screws up and gets forced into a probable cause hearing.
Fitz just filed a Motion to Disclose in which he proposes to release 4 conversations.
Your man Rahm is resigning the House Jan. 2 and there are 11 good and honest people from the state of Illinois in the race says Rahm vacationing in Africa.
Emanuel has $1,782,189 million in his campaign warchest, of which about $400,000 is a loan he made to his campaign and something will happen to that money.
The eleven going so far going after Emanuel’s seat are:
Alexander Victor Forys Mike Quigley, Cook County Board Member Charles J. Wheelan Sara Feigenholtz, State Representative Reichel Matthew Joey Vartanian Israel Vasquez Justin Oberman, former Transportation Safety Administration official Cary Capparelli, son of former State Representative Debra Mell, incoming State Representative, daughter of Ald. Dick Mell who is not going to pursue the seat Jan H. Donatelli
By Chad Harris
December 30, 2008 12:01 AM | Link to this
Abdullah’s wife is not Lisa who is his mom, it’s Queen Rania former Apple and Citibank employee.
By BP
December 30, 2008 1:47 AM | Link to this
Evil, like free choice, exists and humankind chooses to do or let evil be done. It’s what the individual does with it that matters. Do I “clean it up” or “prevent” it. There’s that “choice” thing again. I say prevent it if you see it happening or comming. If you come accross it’s result give aid. As I understand it some religons are great at wait and see. Faith shold not be seen as a noun but a verb. Don’t misunderstand I attend a christian church but consider myself a follower of Christ. I don’t need all that cr*p about judging everybody else and the “traditions” created by people. I will let God sort everything out. In the mean time let us be the vehicle for change. As it stands Isreal is looking to be left alone. If Hamas wants destruction it will get destruction. Careful what you ask for.
By Bud Wiser
December 30, 2008 7:16 AM | Link to this
I say give both sides nukes and see who has the cajones to fire first.
By williebkind
December 30, 2008 7:54 AM | Link to this
All of you liberals living in your cozy homes supporting all religions except Judea-Christian beliefs, continue to express their disdain of civilian casualties caused by the Iraelis i.e. “* Let Israelis stop their whining about rockets and bring their illegal colonists back into borders they were granted and stop killing Palestinian civilians.*”
Did not the people elect Hamas into office? It is their responsibility to hold their leaders to their standards. Does not the civilian population provide young recruits for Hamas? Does not the controlling society train all their young ones to hate and destroy Israel. This is not the first event! It is time for Israel, in order to preserve itself for all times to completely and utterly wipe out Hamas and all of those who allow them to use their homes and country as staging grounds to attack Israel. We bombed Germany and Japan unitl the government capitulated. Israel with or without the support of the world must kill and take control of the areas so that future generations of the local peoples are not taught that destroying Israel is part of their religious pact. You can only kill the ones who have been indoctrinated but you can stop future generations from receiving such murderous teachings. Let Israel defend its people today and in the future. Hamas must die.
By yankee
December 30, 2008 8:02 AM | Link to this
Just send some of the Atlanta blogger population, they know everything.
By SGT Carter
December 30, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this
By The Corporal
December 29, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this
Based on her past combat history, I bet when Hillary goes to Israel she will say she was under attack starting at Andrews Air Force Base.
Good morning Gomer.
By Akmed
December 30, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this
The only way the “Hamas problem” can be solved is with overwhelming violence. I’m sorry that the civilian population is suffering but they voted these cave men into power. Israel needs to bomb these fools back to the stone age. If the Palestinian people want this hell to end, they should rise up and kill every member of Hamas. Arabs as a whole have never given anything to the Palestinian people but they are too stupid to notice that. If they want their own country, they will have to wrestle it out of the grasp of evil men.
By gttim
December 30, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this
I don’t know if there will ever be a solution. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with walling off Gaza and sealing up those borders for good. I am a flaming liberal, but this crap has gone on for too long. Seal it off and for every rocket they fire, send 100 back. If Egypt and other Arab countries would accept the refugees from that area, Gaza would have been emptied long ago. For the other Arab countries to keep those people stuck there to bother Israel is just inhumane.
By Jake
December 30, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this
Jay, Jay, Jay, you can’t have peace with people whose avowed mission is to destroy Israel through jihad. The only solution is to go through all the occupied territories and kill every last one of them, man, woman, and child and let Allah sort them out.
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
To Sgt. Carter
Surprise, surprise!
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
Why, Israel’s goal must be nothing less than “whatever it takes to ensure the safety and security of our nation and our people.”
You know, just like Adolf’s goal in 1939.
By tom
December 30, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this
Both sides are war-obsessed savages who would gladly kill each other for 1000 more years if we weren’t living in the nuclear age.
By Sam
December 30, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
So now Jay is quoting Petraeus, the man who championed the “surge” that has worked so well in Iraq—I’m sure if we go back in some blogs, Jay was SO supportive of him then. Funny how the libs have totally SHUT UP recently about how well things have gone in Iraq
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
To Sam
Here’s something to ponder.
Everyone has been touting lately how wise it was for Aytch to appoint General Jones and keep Secretary of Defense Gates.
What does that tell you about liberals?
You mean they couldn’t find a social liberal anywhere who had the same defense skills as those two so they had to appoint them?
SAD but shows who truly defends this country.
By DeKalb Voter
December 30, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this
I hope the number one goal of Israel is to get at least one more shot at taking our Cynthia McKinney, this time for good! Take that terrorist out. I bet she can’t swim, feed her to the sharks.
By Sam
December 30, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
Corporal, funny how libs aren’t so gung how about setting a timetable for withdrawl from Iraq anymore. What did Millhouse(Obama) say during the campaign, 18 months? I guess it was just a ploy to rally the pinko crowd base of his for the election and then go back on his word. Some CHANGE. Or, maybe now that he has to be adult and look thru the world with reality glasses, he understands what a dangerous world this is. I’m hoping for the latter.
By Chuck
December 30, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
If the USA is so much in favor of one group in the Middle East why not just call it the 51st state and be done with it. How many of our tax dollars have gone to there use?
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
To Sam
Talk was cheap until he got his first classified briefings.
I bet he wet his pants.
By tom
December 30, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
Sam, you can whine about “libs” all day. The fact is that your side got it’s a$$ kicked in November because your party resides in the stone age. The GOP doesn’t have a single congressman from all of New England. The GOP deserves to be the dying brand that it is. Your party should attempt an image makeover so Americans will no longer view you as only ignorant, fat, white chickhawks. Your posts aren’t helping this cause. Stop crying like a Palin baby and try to enjoy the next 8 years.
By Sam
December 30, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
Tom, why would any conservative want to live or represent “the People’s Republic of New England”?
Don’t worry Tom, the longer I live, the more I know that nothing stays forever. Politics, economics, and social views come in cycles. We will rise again, once we get some real leadership.
By CIMA
December 30, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
The clearest example of continued American support for racial arrogance and ethnic cleansing is America’s support of the establishment of the State of Israel. There is no moral, religious or legal justification for its establishment in Palestine. The following illustrates this point: (1) support for Israel is support for ethnic cleansing: In 1918 Jews owned about 2% of the total land area of Palestine and were 8% of the population. (2) the “ancient historic connection” of the Palestinians is longer than that of the Jews: Around 1200 BC Hebrew tribes invaded the Land of Canaan, which was inhabited by the ancestors of the Palestinians, namely, the Philistines, the Canaanites, and other original inhabitants (see The Jordan Times, 11/17/97). (3) “ancient historic connection” does not justify ethnic cleansing: “the Palestine Arabs have had uninterrupted occupation of this land for over 1300 years” (see Palestine: Questions & Answers, 3-4). Any significant presence of Jewish people in Palestine ended in 132 AD under the Roman Emperor Hadrian and continued until the 20th century. “They are still the legal owners of the homes and lands in which the Israelis now live and work.” (see Palestine: Questions & Answers, 3-4). (4) the Biblical promise applies to Arabs: Arabs also point out that if the Biblical promise in Genesis 17:8 is valid, it was fulfilled when the Arabs were given the land because they are descendants of Abraham. (5) Palestinian resistance against the existence of Israel is a legitimate right of self-defense. Also, American support for Israel is indisputable proof of America’s lack of repentance for its historic abuse of non-Europeans. Before the creation of Israel, Arab representatives declared “against a State established by violence, the Arab States will be obliged to use violence; that is a legitimate right of self-defense” (see Report On Palestine, p. 95). Their continued armed resistance against Israel is totally moral, legal and religiously justifiable. Israel has a long record of terrorism against the United States going all the way back to 1954. In that year, the Israel government plotted to blow up American installations in Cairo and Alexandria and blame it on Egyptian nationals. By chance the plot faileand was uncovered. It was named the Lavon Affair after the man who supposedly set up the terrorism, Pinhas Lavon, the Israeli Defense Chief. He resigned in 1955 over the incident. (See Bar-Joseph, Uri (1995) Intelligence Intervention in the of Democratic States: The United States, Israel, and Britain. UniversPark, PA: Penn State Press; The Lavon Affair By David Hirst, Excerpts from his book: The Gun and the Olive Branch, 1977, 1984, Futura Publications). 15. In 1986 Israel actually caused us to wrongly go to war and militarily attack another nation. The Mossad planted a transmitter in Tripoli, Libya and then broadcast terrorist messages in Libyan code indicating Libyan responsibility for killing two Americans in the bombing of the La Belle discothèque in Germany. (It was later proven that Libya had nothing to do with the bombing) By use of this fraud, Israel induced the American bombing of Libya. American bombs wrecked havoc there. One of those killed was the infant daughter of the Libyan President. (See Ostrovsky, Victor. (1995) The Other Side of Deception: A Rogue Agent Exposes the Mossad’s Secret Agenda. New York: Harper). America Must Repent! Being unjust and support for injustice erases any credibility and moral authority America thinks it has. It must acknowledge its past, voice remorse, cease being unjust and cease supporting it. It must also compensate its victims to gain those noble qualities. Concerning murders and ethnic cleansing, Allah, the Exalted, has said: “Do not shed each others blood and do not drive each other from your homes” (al-Qur’an 2:84). Every soldier on foreign soil without the consent of that country’s people or leaders should heed the words of Allah, the Exalted, Who says to the oppressed: “Fight them wherever you find them and drive them out from where they drove you out! Civil disorder is worse than killing and being killed” (al-Qur’an 2:191).
By American Made
December 30, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
I won’t pretend to know a solution or that I completely understand the history of this region and it’s people, but I am curious of what those who has said “Israel should stop killing Palestinians and civilians” think should happen. From what I have read, Hamas lobs rockets at a pretty steady pace into Israel with no regard for where the land. Israel hits military targets and warns civilians before they do so. Where is your “outrage” for the civilians killed by Hamas or is it ok because Hamas is just “fighting the big bully” as some of you have put it? Again, i plead some ignorance on the subject, but from my perspective, Israel has every right to defend itself and take out Hamas. Where am I wrong?
By RealityKing
December 30, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Israel’s goal is to crush Hamas before Iran can assist it getting stronger in the face of such a weak US president.
Or in Doofus Biden’s words.., a test of Obama’s metal.
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
AmericanMade: You’re wrong in asserting that it’s Hamas who’s firing the rockets. They’re not. Other Palestinian factions and tribes are doing it; Hamas is abiding by the cease-fire agreement (albeit halfheartedly).
By ghostwriter
December 30, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
You Israel critics can complain all you want, but Israel has to live in the real world. Israel promotes freedom within it’s own borders and, unlike Hamas, has a government that supervises it’s military and does not allow it to intimidate it’s population.
By RealityKing
December 30, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
Just back from Gaza CopyLeft? Is that you Cynthia McKinney??
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Get used to it. It belongs to Israel !
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
Palestine is not 100% guilty in this situation; Israel is not 100% innocent. One side is not The Good Guy and the other The Bad Guy.
I realize that’s a shocking concept for people who claim to “live in the real world,” but it’s true. Israel is neither pure nor perfect, and there’s plenty of bloodstained hands on both sides of this mess.
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
Corporal, have you not realized that your quote only impresses people who already believe in what the Bible says?
That’s not going to impress people who follow other faiths. It’s therefore pretty useless as an argument between two different religious groups.
By GodHatesTrash
December 30, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this
The nation of Israel is located in absolutely the worst place in the world. Based upon the oogedy-boogedy in their ancient books, the Jews asserted their ‘rights’ over an area that most of them had left almost 2000 years ago. Georgians ought to hope the Cherokee don’t try that stunt.
CIMA is right, Jews were a minority in Palestine. They were approximately 1/3rd of the population of the area in 1948. By the use of terror including the indiscriminate killing of civilians, both British and Arab, the nation of Israel emerged.
Obviously, the best place for the Jewish nation after WW2 would have been in German territory, as it would have been a logical punishment of the German people for their support of Hitler. Instead, the Palestinian majority had a Jewish nation overlayed upon it.
The only solution to this 60-year travesty of justice to the Palestinians is another exodus of the Jewish people - declare Jerusalem an international city, put UN troops there, and move the Jews in the rest of the country to Wyoming, Alaska, Arizona, New Mexico or somesuch place.
Or, 60 years from now, Israel will either remain a bunker, or will be wiped off the map, or surrounded by nuclear winter.
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this
The Israeli Jews would be welcome to move here to America… but they won’t because of religious fanaticism, just like the Palestinians won’t abandon that same territory.
Religious fanaticism: the enemy of all civilization and peace.
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
To Copyleft
You sir are absolutely correct ………………………………………………. unless it is true.
By Slick
December 30, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
The United States needs to change its policy to that of an “honest broker” rather than its current one of unconditional supporter and enabler of anything the Israelis do, regardless of how brutal or senseless it is. I hope Obama is smart enough to bring about this “Change”… but time will tell and the killing continues…
Both sides must be made to realize that they must make compromises, and that a military solution is impossible. Israel has a right to a secure state and so do the Palestinians.
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
Corporal: Truth is irrelevant when we’re talking about religious beliefs.
A Bible-based argument is utterly useless in dealing with followers of a different religion—just as the teachings of the Koran don’t matter to the Jews.
If you have another approach, by all means let’s hear it. But quoting Bible verses is useless here.
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
I didn’t quote Bible verses.
I quoted God.
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Not according to non-Jews and non-Christians, you didn’t. Are you really having this much trouble with the concept that “People of other faiths aren’t going to be convinced by quotes from your OWN faith”?
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
To Copyleft
No more than they won’t be convinced by God Himself.
Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life. No One comes to the Father but through Me.
Since you aren’t approving of scripture I will paraphrase this one:
There is a passage in the Bible where the religious leaders of the day were very upset with this new sect and were going to punish the new disciples very severely. About that time, one of their more wise lot stepped in and said, “gentlemen, there have been many sects over the years that have arisen and have turned to naught. If these men be like that, this will be over soon. But if not, should we fight against God?
2,000 years and counting !!
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Well, if it’s just age and popularity you’re looking for, why aren’t you a Buddhist?
The point I’m making—and the one you seem to be having trouble with—is that quoting the Bible only works on Jews and Christians. For anyone else, it doesn’t even BEGIN to support an argument.
And the other side of this conflict, if you hadn’t noticed, is Muslim. Announcing, “God says it’s our land!” will have ZERO impact on people who don’t belong to the same church as you. It’s simply not a compelling argument, and it’s not going to get anywhere in achieving peace between these factions.
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
To Copyleft
1) What I meant was 2,000 years and counting for Christ’s (God in the flesh) first appearance. Christianity itself goes back thru eternity as Christ is God ………
2) As far as not trying to convince others, the Bible doesn’t say “shush, be quiet or someone might have to make a decision”.
No ….. it says:
Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to everyone ………..
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
P.S. to Copyleft
The Apostle Paul was enroute to Damascus to bring Christians in chains back to Jerusalem for imprisonment or death when he saw the light.
There is hope for anyone.
By Copyleft
December 30, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this
True. Maybe you’ll be visited by the Prophet Mohammed tonight and be awakened to the truth of Islam.
Or maybe you’ll have a vision of the Buddha and see the light of the Eightfold Path.
Or maybe, just maybe, you’ll figure out that you have no more basis for your faith than anyone else has for theirs—and try a different tack if you want to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian confilct, rather than blindly parroting Bible verses as if the Israelis were automatically and obviously entitled to do whatever they want.
They’re not. And they really need to stop acting as though they were God’s Chosen People when they’re surrounded by so many of Allah’s Chosen People. That way lies madness and hatred and violence, which is the inevitable consequence of all religious mania.
By The Corporal
December 30, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this
To Copyleft
One day we’ll know ……..
If you’re right - no big deal.
If I’m right - well, think about it. Who’s taking the bigger gamble?
There is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.
Thanks for your input. God bless.
By Gulf War Vet
December 31, 2008 6:43 AM | Link to this
Israel is totally justified in it’s actions concerning Hamas. Unfortunately, when more than 2.5 million Palestinians live in an area just over twice the size of Washington D.C. innocent civilians will be killed, including children. One of these combatants willingly chooses to kill civilians and children, the other exercises extreme restraint in an attempt to minimize casualties. Israel is a sovereign Nation, Hamas is the face of terrorism.
War is hell and I have seen it up close and personal. What is happening in Gaza and Israel is the direct fault of the Arabs just as was the first gulf war due to the direct result of Saddam Hussein’s aggression. Hamas is simply the rabid dog at the end of the chain being held by Iran.
From the desk of David Harris:
Why Israel had no choice