Jay Bookman

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

We must always separate the sin from the sinner. Difficult but possible.

Many Christian men have a proclivity to lust (or worse) after women other than their wives. Dwelling on that is sin and certainly the act is sin.

The homosexual world is no different. Dwelling on it is sin and certainly the act is sin.

Mr. Haggard of all people should know this.

Now, for those of you who have made up your minds and basically ignore other passages in the Bible, I will stick to the red letter portion - in other words, the words of Jesus Himself.

If we accept some of His words we need to accept them all …….

Matthew 18:

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

True repentance is difficult, but it’s Mr. Haggard’s choice if he wants to be treated as a brother or a pagan.

By ByteMe

December 20, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone…” (John 8:7).

Seems there are a lot of hypocritical “stone throwers” out there in religionland. Haggard isn’t the first nor the last to learn this lesson. Justice served.

By RW-(the original)

December 20, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

This picture is just downright creepy. It looks just like a touched up version of Jay B’s picture hovering right above it.

By ByteMe

December 20, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

RW: Like the “Just for Men” ads?

By RW-(the original)

December 20, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

ByteMe,

Sort of, but considering the topic maybe we shouldn’t go there.

By GayGrayGeek

December 20, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

RW - Glamour Shots has only a limited number of poses…

By Tom

December 20, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

“If we accept some of His words we need to accept them all …….”? That’s like say “If we believe some of the things we read in the newspaper, we need to believe them all …”

By ByteMe

December 20, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

Or… what if we accept all of His words, just not the writings made by some relatively uneducated superstitious men who wrote their stories down for posterity… or the modern men and women who interpret those words without historical context?

And how did GGG know that about Glamour Shots?

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

To Tom

Except an infallible God is just a little bit different than a fallible newspaper editor. If you choose to believe …..

To ByteMe

If there is a God and if He had a book written about Himself, I think He would find a way to have it be accurate enough to decipher His will.

Your choice.

To All

Jesus on marriage:

Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’.

By spankmonkey

December 20, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

The Corporal like to cast about as if he were a man without sin, yet a careful reading of his posts here paint a picture of a man who does everything but turn the other cheek. There’s pettiness, name-calling, vindictiveness,pride, envy, hubris, and much much self aggrandizing.

Now you may find yourself saying “but he’s a deacon and has taught sunday school for 30 years!”, but I find myself saying “but he’s a deacon and has taught sunday school for 30 years???”

Prime example of the “do as I say…not as I do” crowd Mr Haggard represented for years. The roosters have come home to roost for Mr Haggard, he laid down with dogs, and the fleas cast him out…

By GOP is gone

December 20, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

Funny how the church would have probably forgiven him if it was a woman.

Did he think he could just say I am sorry I railed against Gays for years because I secretly hated myself or was trying to throw off any doubts about his sexuality.

I feel sorry for him and his family. That is a strong woman, I do not think I could stay with a man who is gay, unless of course so is she.

However, if they were true Christian believers they should have forgiven him. That has always been one of the things I dislike about Ultra Religious people, there is a large population of them that are just hypocritical.

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

To Spankmonkey

A couple of points:

1) I am a sinner the same as anyone else (maybe more than you) but I am forgiven and that is a profound difference. Even the Apostle Paul said he was chief among sinners.

Jesus said … except you believe in Me you are dead in your sins.

2) Turning the other cheek has to do with personal revenge.

Taken in it’s proper context it has nothing to do with being accountable under the law, arguing a point of truth or even personal self-defense.

Jesus said …. whoever has no sword let him sell his coat and buy one.

P.S. to ByteMe

The throwing of stones is not symbolic but a literal translation. The religious rulers wanted to stone the adulteress to death for her acts (like they do in Muslim countries sometimes). Jesus came to change that O.T. regulation and substitute it with forgiveness and grace that is why He made the statement He did (he who is without sin let him cast the first stone).

But you must read on. He told the woman go and sin no more ! Lust is sin. Pornorgraphy is sin. Adultery is sin. Sex outside of marriage is sin. Homosexual acts are sin.

Thankfully, God offers forgiveness but only to those who sincerely ask for it. That’s a decsion it looks like Mr. Haggard has yet to fully make.

By catlady

December 20, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

Most folks just have a problem with the hypocracy of it all. Too many of the “family values” crowd, judgemental toward others, are doing just what they have decried. The list is long, and includes Republicans and Democrats. It’s just that the Democrats don’t claim to be holier than thou, family values, uber patriots like so many of the Republicans do. (Just like the Democrats claim to be the educated, intelligent group but occasionally have some real, certified morons in the party.)

By ByteMe

December 20, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

Wearing garment of made from more than one type of thread is a sin.

So much sinnin’ in the ‘70’s…..

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

To GOPis gone

Read Matt. 18 in my post above. The ball is in Mr. Haggard’s court. One must truly repent to be forgiven and have full association within the church. Trying to justify one’s acts doesn’t work.

One of the two theives on the cross tried to justify his acts and the other sought true forgiveness. Which one did Jesus say today you will be with me in paradise?

You can’t have it both ways.

By Mike

December 20, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

Yes, we all should be more forgiving. You know just like Jay Bookman is so tolerant and forgiving.

Hypocrisy, thy name is Bookman.

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

To ByteMe

Wearing garment of made from more than one type of thread is a sin.

Now ByteMe, you have to stay after class! I have told you this before. Get out of those O.T. regulations unless you want to be judged by law instead of grace.

YOUR CHOICE !

By spankmonkey

December 20, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

“Trying to justify one’s acts doesn’t work.” Could not have said it better myself.

Your reply to me are simply convenient justifications and suspect interpretations.

You stated once that your reason for trying to stick a deragatory name to Obama, not like hussien wasn’t good enough, was because WE called Bush Dubya. That’s revenge, no?

By GayGrayGeek

December 20, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

ByteMe: When my hubby and I lived in metro Atlanta, we knew quite a few women - both natural and, um, “man-made” - who Did The Glamour Shots Thang. Since neither he nor I are Glamour-ous, we never had our piccies taken there ourselves, but a lot of our acquaintances and cow-orkers most certainly did…

By spankmonkey

December 20, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

I know about Glamour Shots from the movie Napolean Dynamite…

By Algonquin J. Calhoun

December 20, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

The saddest thing is that Mr. Haggard has no community to which he belongs. To heterosexuals he is gay and not one of us. To gays he is a homosexual who went out of his way to persecute others for behavior he engaged in himself. Like Robert Bauman and Larry Craig he will always be viewed, by both straights and gays, as a hypocrite, deceiving those around him and deluding himself.

It’s not surprising that the Church has turned its back on him. The Church offered forgiveness and neglected to mention that a concomitant would be oblivion. He now realizes that he has been forgiven and forgotten, a pariah alone in the world with no constituency. There’s no satisfaction in witnessing the complete fall of a person but I’ll watch the program when it airs. Perhaps his wanderings in the desert will be instructive for the audience of the film and redemptive for him. I hope his life story turns out to have a happier ending than this.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

In November 2006, he resigned or was removed from all of his leadership positions after he admitted soliciting prostitute Mike Jones for homosexual sex and methamphetamine.

Can anyone imagine what the libs would have said about the New Life Church had they chose to keep this guy around?

A church has a duty to make itself acceptable to potential new members and being a target of the hate mongering liberal media would have been devastating on their membership.

Just for an example, see Palin, Sarah.

So, with that in mind, who is it that is really responsible for Ted’s predicament, other than Ted and the columnist of this blog/ pinko media?

Even further, where is the compassion from the libs for the likes of Larry Craig, ostracized for doing what most homo’s do, what, can you not make a victim of the right wing evangelicals out of him?

You pick and choose your “victims” based on what?

Political affiliation?

That’s what I thought.

And that’s pretty sorry.

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

Al Franken leads by 251 votes 1325 challenged ballots reviewed as of Friday, 5:04 pm.

I’d like to extend a hearty festive Season’s Greetings and a big shoutout to:

1) Moron Palin’s daughter’s future mother-in-law only now that the f*ckup campaign is dead it looks like the shotgun weddin’ is off. I figure that Rush Limbaugh and Palin and her in law to be or not to be could do the Oxycontin Sales tour of 2012 with the slogan “Oxycontin—It’s what the real America clings to. Ummmmm Ummmm Good goshdarnita you betcha.

2) A joyous Chanukah to Bernie Madoff (pronounced literally Made Off) and his neice, Shana, the daughter of his General Counsel and brother, Peter, who was the “Compliance Officer” of Madoff Security Inestments. They extended the same “sookooority” that Michael Chertoff extends to you in the Homeland—a term from Ibsen’s plays in the late 1800s revived after Bush screwed up and allowed 3400 people to be burned up and some jump to their death.

The talk around the Madoff Chanukah dinner ought to be lively and cutting edge. If Madoff were black or Hispanic, and had stolen a $3 pack of cigarettes cigarettes from the grocery around the corner from his kabillion dollar digs, he’d be rotting in Riukers.

Yeah they can claim the tax deduction for the theft, but they won’t be able to try for a few years, and it’s dicy whether they can do it even then and many of them will have to give back the Ponzi scheme illusory 10-12% profits that aren ‘t real.

I’d say thats one major financial clusterf*ck of a matrix that will spawn a lot of books you can get in the bookstore next Christmas or Chanukah or Kwanza.

3) A Hearty Christmas to Moron Bush who stupidly gave more than the entire Georgia budget to dead companies in Michigan who advertize a huge gas guzzler on the front of the AJC Auto section. And they better produce by March, when Bush and Dimwitt will be living outside Houston and have nothing to say about it.

I’ve never seen so many messes left for someone since a whole dog pound got diarrhea.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

By Chad Harris December 20, 2008 12:54 PM I’ve never seen so many messes left for someone since a whole dog pound got diarrhea.

Such a lovely Christmas message from Chad-

Haircuts, beer, cinema tickets, cigars, taxi rides, massages, and sugary soft drinks would also be targeted under the austerity budget aimed at closing the New York $15.4 billion shortfall.

Detroit deficit estimated as high as $300 million

Atlanta budget deficit could top $80M

Mayor Richard Daley warned Tuesday of a Chicago city budget deficit in the hundreds of millions of dollars, calling the looming financial crunch the worst he has seen.

Anybody want to guess what they^^ all have in common?

The adoption of $19.5 million in budget cuts will help Cobb County avoid the fiscal pitfalls other counties are facing, county commissioners said Thursday night. Olens said the goal had always been to avoid layoffs or furloughs of staff. “We’re capable of weathering the storm for another year or two,” Commissioner Joe L. Thompson said. “It appears to me in watching the other counties that Cobb has the muscle and the management ability to weather the storm.”

And the brain power too.

The United States of America is screwed, big time, you will come to find this out, Chad.

In due time.

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

I feel very badly for everyone hurting or finding their job threatened or their home threatend or their job the fatality of economic downsizing including the Detroit auto workers however, I have never been more against every “bailout” that started a couple months ago and has roller coasted. I still cannot get my head around bailing out the investment banks and equity funds—just surrealistic.

By ByteMe

December 20, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Corporal: it’s the same passage where man laying down with another man is considered an “abomination”, so whose judging whom by what?

Pathetic to use a 1600-year-old book to judge others. Start by treating others with the degree of compassion with which you want them to treat you. Homosexuality is only a “sin” in the minds of people who haven’t evolved to the same level of compassion and forgiveness that they expect to get from “God”.

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

I couldn’t let this medically incorrect pronouncement by AJC/DNC pass because despite his delusions, nothing could be medically further form the truth. This is what happens when some phony religious agenda overtakes someone with no medical training whatsoever and produces total quakery.

Earlier this morninng on another comment thread AJC wrote:

1) Quakery as to stem cell “discoveries” that have no basis in medicine.

2) Quakery as to progress against HIV that has no basis in medicine.

3) Quakery as to progress against a pandemic mutating H5N-1 virus.

The fact is that we are not at all within striking distance of preventing HIV via immunization.

The fact is that Bush’s stupidly conceived pronouncements on stem cells have been proved wrong and one of the foremost stem cell researchers was in the NYT last week saying just that—and there are about 11 lines that are productive not 60 something as Bush said there would be.

This state’s imbecilic governor spent millions on Tamiflu which has no efficacy against pandmic flu whatsoever, (with no intelligent ID MD input at all), and this year the CDC’s studies and many others have shown Tamiflu has zero efficacy against the common garden variety flu in the US.

The human genome project has produced nothing close to stopping a pandemic H5N1 outbreak that would see efficacy within a decade if ever.

There is no medical evidence whatsoever that any DDT ban killed 50,000 children.

I suspect the medical lit for AJC/DNC Management consists of old issues of Mad Magazine. It certainly doesn’t reflect any of the reputable medical literature and I doubt that AJC/DNC can begin to name the mainstream medical literature that most clinicians relie on much less read or understand any of it.

Having kept up with it for years, there is nothing remotely in existence to substantiate what AJC/DNC has whackily written about in real medicine on this planet as of this afternoon.

There are approximately 450,000 frozen embryos banked in the U.S. right now, that are going to deteriorate, and they will have to be discarded. No one is using them. Ann Coulter is not spreading her legs to be impregnated with them nor are any Wingnut women, married or single.

AJC/DNC’s distortions are nothing at all like the actual paper published in Cell by by Shinya Yamanaka of Kyoto University and the Gladstone Institute of Cardiovascular Disease in San Francisco or the paper published in Science by by James A. Thomson and his colleagues at the University of Wisconsin.

And both groups have yet to confirm that the reprogrammed human skin cells really are the same as stem cells they get from embryos.

Further, both groups agreed last year that it would be very premature to abandon stem cell research with embroynic stem cells.

Further, these methods actually use a retrovirus to insert genes into the chromosomes of cells, and it is not unusual when retroviruses slip genes into cells at random for them to mutate the normal cells into cancers.

What was written when the NYT reported these studies was important. The cancer risk means that the resulting stem cells would not be suitable for replacement cells or tissues for patients with diseases, like diabetes, in which their own cells die.

From NYT this week and specifically on Monday, December 15, 2008:

*As director of Stanford’s Center for Human Embryonic Stem Cell Research and Education, Renee A. Reijo Pera, 49, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology, works at ground zero of the controversy over human embryonic stem cells. She uses human embryos to create new cells that will eventually be coaxed into becoming eggs and sperm. In other research, she has also identified one of the first genes associated with human infertility.

Q. WHEN GEORGE BUSH ISSUED HIS AUGUST 2001 PROHIBITION AGAINST FEDERAL FINANCING OF NEW STEM CELL RESEARCH, WHAT DID YOU THINK?

A. First, I was stunned that a president was talking about biological science at all! After I caught my breath on that, I was grateful he didn’t order an outright ban on all research in this area.

As you may recall, his order banned federal funding for new stem cell lines, but permitted work on older colonies of stem cells, derived by embryos — “lines” — already in existence. Of those he permitted, there were supposed to be something like 60 or 70 lines, though reports are there are actually only about 20 lines one can work on. I believe there are really only 11 that grow well.

There’s been bad news and good news. Surprisingly, because scientists were limited to working with these very few lines, we’ve learned a lot about this one small group of embryonic stem cells. We’ve learned a lot about the genetics of these lines, and we are able to make comparisons between them. This might not have happened if researchers had been using all kinds of different lines from all over the place. The bad news was that the available lines turned out to be, generally, of poor quality — many were grown in a medium that contained animal products. For studying human reproduction at the level we are, you wouldn’t want to use them. The bottom line is: Although we have improved our methods to make embryonic stem cells, we’re still limited to using these poor-quality stem cell lines, which are not valuable for learning about human embryonic development.

We hope in the future we’ll be able to study newer lines made under less restrictive conditions. I hope there will be a change in policy.

Q. WELL, THEN, WHAT DO YOU USE IN YOUR LABORATORY NOW?

A. Our lab isn’t federally funded. We get our money from the $3 billion California stem cell initiative. We make our own stem cells from embryos donated by I.V.F. families.

Q. DO YOU HAVE MORAL QUALMS ABOUT USING HUMAN EMBRYOS IN YOUR RESEARCH?

A. I can’t say I do. And I’ve really searched myself about this. I grew up a deeply religious Christian — I’d go off into the woods and sing hymns. My sister is an Evangelical. I’m sure there have been moments in my life when I haven’t been a model Christian, but my work on embryonic stem cells isn’t one of them.

Think about it: we study embryos donated by couples who finished their I.V.F. treatments. They would be destroyed anyway. Nationally, the clinics discard about 400,000 unused embryos every year — and yet few people consider I.V.F. clinics “immoral.” Stem cell researchers use about 10,000 of those about-to-be-discarded embryos. And in learning from them, we are getting information that we can get nowhere else, that will make mothers and babies healthier.

There are people who believe that we when use embryos for research at all, our society becomes hardened. I’ve searched myself on that and I don’t think I’m hardened. I can honestly say I still get goose bumps when I see embryos develop. You hope you are humble enough to take in the information and not change your course.

If there was truly a substitute that was better for understanding human development than embryo research, that is what I’d do. But there isn’t. That’s where the data is. I think that it is not good to throw human embryos away — without studying them.*

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this

To ByteMe

1) For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Jesus clearly stated marriage was between a man and a woman. He could have changed it if he wanted.

2) The threads thing is ceremonial law and the man laying down with another man is moral law.

Jesus discontinued the ceremonial law (eating rules, clothing rules, animal sacrifices, etc) and kept the moral law. However, in retaining the moral law He substituted forgiveness and grace instead of death by stoning as the law required.

It’s really quite simple once you grasp it.

Jesus said …. go and sin no more

3) Now concerning the Dubya vs. Aytch thing don’t forget that Jesus called the religious rulers of His day serpents and you of your father the devil. He also called King Herod that Old Fox.

If Obama is one thing, he’s is a tricky fox for sure just like Herod and Aytch will stick !!

In any case it’s just phonetic for his middle initial!

Next comment/question ……….

By Taxpayer

December 20, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

I think many Evangelicals love precisely what they see in the mirror. And, amongst the list of words they love, loathe is very high. You can almost hear it in their voices as they preach against all that is not like themselves. The pinnacle of arrogance, amongst other things.

By Dusty

December 20, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

There is one thing worse than a phony minister. A phony “doctor” is worse.

Anyone practicing medicine on a blog is probably not a doctor but someone who “thinks” he is. Or maybe he is a congenital liar. Anyone posting hate continuously in long diatribes is usually “disabled” mentally.

It doesn’t take a psychiatrist to spot obvious symptoms. They are too far from the norm to be missed.

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

To Taxpayer @ 2:32

This day your words against evangelicals have fulfilled prophecy !

Matthew 5:11

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

By Taxpayer

December 20, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

Is killing a sin.

If you kill once, no other human can call you out for your action because they are all sinners but Jesus said to go forth and sin no more. So, it’s OK to sin once but not again. At least that’s the message the corporal leaves in his own special way.

Now, what about the question I posed the other day about the bomb falling from the sky and shocking and awing the unborn child of the nearby mother and killing the unborn child. Was the child murdered and by whom? the bomb dropper, the person ordering the dropping of the bomb, who.

By Dusty

December 20, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Dear Corporal,

You mentioned King Herod in one of your posts.

NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC has a great piece on King Herod in their December 2008 issue. Not only was he a terrible tyrant and killer, he was a great ARCHITECT. He was the builder and planner of many marvelous palaces, fortresses and landscapes. Even the ruins are fantastic and the drawings and pictures in the magazine were amazing.

This was such a total surprise to me and very interesting. I thought you might enjoy the article also. As National Geographic titled it: The Real King Herod, Architect of the Holy Land.

By Taxpayer

December 20, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

All you need now is your final prophecy to come true Corporal and your little world will be complete. And here I thought that what you described is precisely what some of those evangelical preachers were doing like when they said all those mean and nasty things about Kerry and others. You know what I’m talking about, don’t you, Corporal. You know. All those hypocrites masquerading as holier-than-thou types. Come to think of it, you sound an awful lot like one of those types yourself.

By spankmonkey

December 20, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

Andy deludes:

“Can anyone imagine what the libs would have said about the New Life Church had they chose to keep this guy around?”

No Andy, only you… enlighten us there grand wizard.

Did Jesus coin those monikers in return for a percieved affront???? T** for tat??? Because that’s the reason you gave on this blog for you slights. Never once did you refer to scripture, just that you were doing it because your liberal friends called Bush “Dubya”… your words not mine.

What church do you attend? I need to make sure I never go near it.

You, Corporal, are one of those who feels no matter what you do you can back it up with scripture… a tried and true hypocrite to the core. Your contentions are laughable. You say ANY sinner can be forgiven, so there’s no need not to sin, that’s what you say to justify your actions, deeds and words.

You are no different than Mr Haggard. you just haven’t been exposed…yet…

Of course you martyr yourself too, you are anything but persecuted, persecution is typically a one sided affair.

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

To Taxpayer

Thou dost swallow a camel and strain on a gnat:

Killing in self defense and murder are two differenct things).

However, you tell me:

Luke 22:36

“He (Jesus) said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

(Note: it was illegal under Roman occupation law at that time for a Jew to have a weapon).

Revelation 19:

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war….. The armies of heaven were following him ….. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

No one is practicing medicine on a blog Dusty. No one here needs to practice medicine on a blog. However, when political bigots who don’t know their a* from a hole in the ground about medicine want to start spouting their delusional bullsh*t, and a physician ses it, we’ll call them on it and that’s precisely what I did bubby.

And I don’t need your affirmation about anything. I put the cardiac drugs on the EMT trucks years ago in Region III that will save your sorry a* if you get into trauma on the road by inservicing them to the EMTs back when most physicians opposed the EMTs doing anything at all except using their trucks for a hearse.

I didin’t need your approval or your vindication to acquire the cumulative clinical experience that has been spelled by years, and whether you like my political views or not, I don’t see you challenging the medical facts I presented because you don’t have the foggiest idea how to do it let alone understand the points I just made. I could care less what you think Dusty, but when I see medical quackery somewhere I’m going to knock it down, and that’s precisely what I did.

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

To Spankmonkey and Taxpayer

You words are music to my ears.

Yep! Scripture it is !

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

To Dusty

I saw that and thanks!

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

Dusty

Be careful with Chad.

*Sonar to bridge …….. *

By spankmonkey

December 20, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

Corporal, Yeah, I figured I wasn’t telling you anything you didn’t already know.

Chad, All Republicans are doctors, remember schiavo? Look at Bush, he’s a rocket scientist…

By Taxpayer

December 20, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

Corporal,

As usual, you go off on one of your diversions. You do not even attempt to answer my questions. For one thing, how do you expect that unborn infant to defend itself against the bomb falling from the sky. How do you expect the expectant mother to defend herself and her child from the bomb falling from the sky. How is this unborn child or the expectant mother posing a threat that requires the dropping of the bomb from the sky. It’s murder, Corporal, not self defense and you know it, or at least you should, yet you try to disguise it as something else. Go forth and sin no more.

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

Last Week from Renee A. Reijo Pera, Director of Stanford’s Center for Human Embryonic Stem Cell Research and Education who held that post when one Condi Rice was Chancellor at Stanford University. This drives the point home and is the concensus of practicing stem cell OBGYNs in this country today. About 15 of the top researchers in this country have left this country so that their research would not be impeeded. The lifting of the restrictions and change in policy that Dr. Pera and so many of us have asked for is going to happen and it’s going to be implemented next month so get used to it, or you can leave the country if it bothers you that much.

Q. WHEN GEORGE BUSH ISSUED HIS AUGUST 2001 PROHIBITION AGAINST FEDERAL FINANCING OF NEW STEM CELL RESEARCH, WHAT DID YOU THINK?

A. First, I was stunned that a president was talking about biological science at all! After I caught my breath on that, I was grateful he didn’t order an outright ban on all research in this area.

As you may recall, his order banned federal funding for new stem cell lines, but permitted work on older colonies of stem cells, derived by embryos — “lines” — already in existence. Of those he permitted, there were supposed to be something like 60 or 70 lines, though reports are there are actually only about 20 lines one can work on. I believe there are really only 11 that grow well.

There’s been bad news and good news. Surprisingly, because scientists were limited to working with these very few lines, we’ve learned a lot about this one small group of embryonic stem cells. We’ve learned a lot about the genetics of these lines, and we are able to make comparisons between them. This might not have happened if researchers had been using all kinds of different lines from all over the place. The bad news was that the available lines turned out to be, generally, of poor quality — many were grown in a medium that contained animal products. For studying human reproduction at the level we are, you wouldn’t want to use them. The bottom line is: Although we have improved our methods to make embryonic stem cells, we’re still limited to using these poor-quality stem cell lines, which are not valuable for learning about human embryonic development.

We hope in the future we’ll be able to study newer lines made under less restrictive conditions. I hope there will be a change in policy.

Q. WELL, THEN, WHAT DO YOU USE IN YOUR LABORATORY NOW?

A. Our lab isn’t federally funded. We get our money from the $3 billion California stem cell initiative. We make our own stem cells from embryos donated by I.V.F. families.

Q. DO YOU HAVE MORAL QUALMS ABOUT USING HUMAN EMBRYOS IN YOUR RESEARCH?

A. I can’t say I do. And I’ve really searched myself about this. I grew up a deeply religious Christian — I’d go off into the woods and sing hymns. My sister is an Evangelical. I’m sure there have been moments in my life when I haven’t been a model Christian, but my work on embryonic stem cells isn’t one of them.

Think about it: we study embryos donated by couples who finished their I.V.F. treatments. They would be destroyed anyway. Nationally, the clinics discard about 400,000 unused embryos every year — and yet few people consider I.V.F. clinics “immoral.” Stem cell researchers use about 10,000 of those about-to-be-discarded embryos. And in learning from them, we are getting information that we can get nowhere else, that will make mothers and babies healthier.

There are people who believe that we when use embryos for research at all, our society becomes hardened. I’ve searched myself on that and I don’t think I’m hardened. I can honestly say I still get goose bumps when I see embryos develop. You hope you are humble enough to take in the information and not change your course.

If there was truly a substitute that was better for understanding human development than embryo research, that is what I’d do. But there isn’t. That’s where the data is. I think that it is not good to throw human embryos away — without studying them.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

Chad Harris: When I read your post, why do I imagine blood vessels bulging forth from your forehead?

It’s always nice to summon a foaming case of BDS from a raging liberal, I never realized it would be so easy with you, but apparently the Bush administrations scientific advancements really, and I’m talking about really, get under your skin.

Good.

There is no denying that adult stem cells have produced numerous cures while embryonic stem cell research has killed little babies, which seems to be a favorite pastime of the brooding, maniacal left, i.e. people like you.

And why all of the anger because Bush has nearly eliminated the deaths of children from malaria in Africa?

You’re rather bizarre, you know it?

~~~~~

spankmonkey: What are you babbling about?

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

To Taxpayer

You don’t want to see any truth in my answers because you have made up your mind. I’ll try one more time.

There is a difference in murder and self-defense/war.

For example:

1) Bank robbers run out of the bank shooting and police officers return fire. One of the officer’s rounds goes through a bank robber and kills a child a block away? Murder - No.

2) Late at night, U.S. Forces bomb a terrorist hideout doing their best to hit only that building. Unknown to U.S. intelligence, an after school event took place a mile away and a school bus was coming by the building when the attack occurred. Two children are killed. Murder - No.

3) Teams of terrorists with machine guns attack hotels in India intentionally targeting and killing civilians. Murder - Yes.

4) U.S. troops engage in a firefight and kill several terrorists. One is captured. After interrogation he is taken by two soldiers back to the scene of the firefight and killed. Murder - Yes.

5) A U.S. convoy is ambused by terroristrs in a crowded area by small arms fire and RPG’s. Troops open fire in self defense knowning their fire will kill some civilians. Murder - No.

Taxpayer, I could go on and on and on ……… but if you can’t grasp these simple differences there is no use …….

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

To AJC/DNC

I’m whispering ……. like I told Dusty, don’t mess with Chad.

I tried yesterday. It goes nowhere.

*sonar to bridge ….. *

By Taxpayer

December 20, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

“The Corporal” at 3:05,

That ringing in your ears may be symptomatic of a more serious condition. I think Chad has your number though so I defer to him regarding your situation.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

An instructive lesson on how liberals and junk science kills-

Vice-President Al Gore Third Annual Farm Journal Conference, December 1, 1998 “I was also proud to stand up for the ethanol tax exemption when it was under attack in the Congress — at one point, supplying a tie-breaking vote in the Senate to save it. The more we can make this home-grown fuel a successful, widely-used product, the better-off our farmers and our environment will be.”

Yep-

Some farmers in the less developed countries have benefitted from the higher prices for corn, wheat, soybeans, and rice, but the urban poor have been hurt badly, outlined in a report by the UN. U.S. subsidies for ethanol creates hunger in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. Children are especially harmed from inadequate nutrition.

Murderers.

By Taxpayer

December 20, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

Corporal,

Give it a rest. You clearly have no intention of simply answering my questions. All that blabbering and you did not say a single solitary word about the unborn child and the mother getting killed by the bomb falling from the sky. I’ve asked the question multiple times and surely even you are capable of reading and understanding my simple little questions. You just resort to the typical Republican tactics. Spare me from any more of your diatribe.

By Dusty

December 20, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Yes, Corporal

sonar to bridge…

Right! A bit of berserk about to blow!

By GodHatesTrash

December 20, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this

I expected that one of the RightWingnuts would have reminded us by now that Gawd made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Of course, He didn’t make anybody, your silly superstitions and fables notwithstanding…

By Matt

December 20, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

This is so exciting. I can’t wait to see it. I truly hope that the religious right have a revelation after seeing it.

If there is someone in the world that could “pray away the gay,” then it would be this man. No one was more committed to radical strict interpretation of the Bible than him. This gives the ultimate proof that homosexuality cannot be changed through will-power, training, praying, faith, etc. It is much more fundamental and cannot be changed no matter how hard you try.

Bravo HBO for daring to tell this story.

By Dusty

December 20, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Say……..,

Bookman, forgot to mention that the director of this “fallen” minister HBO movie is none other than the daughter of Nancy Pelosi. Most people know that Nancy Pelosi is one of the most liberal and ineffectual ever Speakers of the USA House of Representatives.

It does seem like Miss Pelosi would rather make a movie of the handsome young Obama in college when he was smoking marijuana and trying coke. Nawwwww..

I guess it is more fun to picture an older minister who did illegal “things” while claiming to be a conservative preacher. Uh huh..

At least, Michael Moore didn’t make the movie. He has already messed up so badly trying to smear the President. Guess he didn’t feel like making another failed attempt monkeying around with any more propaganda movies.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

I don’t know, prayer brought you freak liberals to his rescue, something I would have never thought possible.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

To Taxpayer

Spare me from any more of your diatribe.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for releasing me from that bondage!

To Matt

Serious discussion please …..

I think some homosexualty may have a genetic background and some is learned or chosen. The same is true of men who make a career of chasing women not their wives. Some may be genetically predisposed to do that but for most it’s chosen. That said it is the act that is specifically wrong.

Do you remember Richard Speck (the guy who murdered eight nurses in Chicago)years ago. Well, I have read that he had a double Y chromosone. Women are XX and Men are XY. An XYY means you are a double male and have problems including severe acne and are prone to violence. That’s a genetic condition.

At one time his defense was going to use that but for some reason they decided to take another tact. The point is, even though he might have been genetically predisposed to violence and would think about it often ….. any act of violence would be wrong.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

“This is the worst fiscal downturn since the Great Depression,” announced New York Gov. Paterson. So what’s he doing? Why, he’s bringing in the biggest tax hike in New York history. If you can make it there, you’ll be paying state tax on it, sales tax, municipal tax, a doubled beer tax, a tax on clothing, a tax on cab rides, an “iTunes tax” on downloads from the Internet, a tax on haircuts, 137 new tax hikes in all. Call Albany today and order your new package of tax forms, for just $199.99, plus 12 percent tax on tax forms and 4 percent tax-form application fee partially refundable upon payment of the 7.5 percent tax-filing tax.-Steyn

By lovelyliz

December 20, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

And just how long was Ted Haggert and member and ineeed a leader of that same church who did to others what he is comdemning when others do it to him?

Still he seems to be remebering to to unto to others………

By Morningstar

December 20, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

By Dusty December 20, 2008 4:54 P guess it is more fun to picture an older minister who did illegal “things” while claiming to be a conservative preacher

I remembered seeing something about Ms. Pelosi and this movie way back when, and it just so happens I was not halucinating. It does pay to research matters for oneself, and take no ones diatribe, gossip or whatever.

It seems the movie was finished when the news broke regarding allegations that Mr. Haggard was involved in certain actions.

According to “Evangelical Right - from New York Times” Ms. Pelosi indicated she wanted to “Furtherthe conversation about religion and culture.” Ms. Pelosi also stated, according to the article, “If you give me the choice of Paris Hilton or Jesus, I’ll take Jesus.” Ms. Pelosi further stated she had chosen the wrong leading man.

The National Geographic article regarding King Herod was excellent and informative. A brilliant, although cruel man. Although a cruel killer of children (and adults), I thought it was interesting the National Geographic stated Herod was ‘almost certainly’ innocent of murdering every male infant in Bethlehem in an effort to kill Christ, as there was no report apart from Matthew’s account.

Again, we make our decisions based on faith. I don’t know about the scientific evidence, but as a Christain, I’ll err on the side of Matthew.

By GOP is gone

December 20, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this

Good God, Save me from the lot of you.

My husband is busy playing with a remote control helicoptor, and yet, he seems so much more mature than this BS.

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

AJC—

From a physician’s standpoint you’re a medical moron period. No medical literature or presicent OBGYN specializing in stem cell research agrees with the garbage you’re spewing, and the only thing you can site is the pea brain you have on your neck with of course no MD and no medical training and you look like a fool to any of us practicing medicine.

Further, your anti-science crap is being put to bed as soon as we move the hee-haw hicks that have such a big white redneck Jawjaw following out of the White House. For all practical purposes, Bush is long gone except for the crap he’s leaving fr us to clean up.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

Chad: I don’t know, I was kinda expecting that you would give us one example of an embryonic stem cell cure but no, just more vein popping eye bulging BS.

Do these mindless diatribes make you feel better?

By Taxpayer

December 20, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this

“…releasing you from your bondage…”! And what would that so called “bondage” be, “The Corporal”. That inability of yours to be straightforward and truthful. The truth shall set you free of your bonds. I’ll let you know when I see that in your written words.

By fed up

December 20, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this

Is Chad really a doctor???

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

For AJC/DNC Management @ 6:26PM asking about “cures” from embryonic stems and the operative word (although there are cures) is progress not only in the US but in other countries. Check out the link at the end of this. And one difference in my discussion is that I site references. There hasn’t been much of that from the screamers that embryonic stem cell research is worthless. That’s not the case and I’ve tried to present you some of the most compelling evidence.

LOL. One deterrent to “embryonic stem cell” progress has been Bush’s band for federal funding. In case you haven’t gotten the message, come Jan. 20, or soon after, that ban goes bye bye.

I notice you have failed to mention that embryonic research has been severely curtailed in this country due to Bush’s prohibition of public funding. There is compelling evidence that when the US is allowed to try to catch up to other countries soon by the lift of Bush’s prohibition, that advances will dramatically move forward. But there are already tangible advances, and “cures” in fact. There are already organs being produced from embryonic stems with the promise of many more to come.

There has been plenty of emb stem progress.

Beta Cell Replacement is becoming possible in diabetics who are dependent on Insulin:

Scientists at the biotechnology company Novocell successfully transformed human embryonic stem cells into a primitive cell line that, was able to reverse chemically induced diabetes. JDRF partly funded the development of the stem cell lines used in this research. This holds promise to make insulin dependent Diabetics (both Types I and II in which Insulin helps lower the HBA1c) forego their dependence on Insulin. The Obama lifting of embryonic stem cell funding prohibition will significantly speed this research.

The primitive cells, called pancreatic endoderm, began producing human insulin in the mice after one to three months. The cells were also shown to produce blood levels of C-peptide comparable to those seen in mice transplanted with about 3,000 isolated human islets; they also protected the mice from hyperglycemia.

Insulin has increasingly been used and is underused in so-called “Type II” patients as an adjunct to current new therapies including Janumet and Januvia, and to lower the dosage of the TZDs which lowers the incidence of the side effects of osteoporosis as well as CHF and ischemia. Insulin has been used as an adjunct for many oral therapies in Type II patients, and the production of pancreatic endodermal cells by embryonic stems promises to eliminate the need for insulin in these patients. The same results have not been duplicated with adult stem cell lines.

Embryonic stem cells have been replacing infarcted heart muscle.

One location has been the lab at Mayo. Using embryonic stem cells, Mayo Clinic researchers transformed these master cell types into fully functional cardiac cells and transplanted them into damaged regions of the myocardium, where the cells integrated into the infarct and showed rapid and robust improvements, which were stable over an extended period post-therapy.

The study, entitled “Stable benefit of embryonic stem cell therapy in myocardial infarction,” appears in the August 2004 edition of the American Journal of Physiology-Heart and Circulatory Physiology, a peer reviewed journal.

And while it is true that in October 2008 (not the first time by far that this has been done) that a human hair was used for the successful reprogramming of adult human cells back into so-called induced pluripotent stem (iPS) cells, which by all appearances looked and acted like embryonic stem cells, and this created media stir.

The problem with many of these reprogramming successes is huge. They are woefully inefficient. The clock is turned back in about 1/10,000 cells making this impractical and prohibitively expensive. Shortly after, the efficiency was increased 100 fold, and the time to do it was cut in half, but that still is woefully inadequate.

Sicle cell anemia, one of the most common genetic diseases, and one of the most painful, with a clear reduction in life expectancy for most patients, is being helped with bone marrow transplatation when and relatively rarely, histocompatible donors are available.

ES cells from blastocysts that had the sickle cells anemia genotype have been harvested and homologously recombined with DNA constructs that contained the beta(A)-globin gene. This has corrected from the beta (S) sequence to beta (A) and used to correct not only Sickle Cell mutations but Beta Thalasemia mutations.

Organss are increasingly being made from embryonic stems, including fingers, hands, bones, and heart.

Scientists in Israel have grown a human kidney from enbryonic stems using a mouse to do it.

Emmanuel Baetge of CyThera Inc., in San Diego, and colleagues report their findings in the December 2008 issue of Nature Biotechnology. They report to have figured out a key piece of that puzzle and have revealed a chemical mix that can spur the stem cells to develop a layer found in developing embryos that gives rise to the thyroid, thymus, lungs, liver, pancreas and the lining of the respiratory and digestive tracts This layer is called endoderm.

Researchers at the Cedars-Sinai Medical Center’s Maxine Dunitz Neurosurgical Institute have found that neural stem cells can track and destroy brain tumour cells. The scientists engineered the cells to produce interleukin-12, a natural compound which can kill glioma cells. In this study, the stem cells were injected into mice with brain tumours. The animals survived far longer than mice not given the cells and, what is more, they also showed long-term immunity to brain cancer, indicating the potential of this new therapy.

Again can you tell me what value you see in discarding 400,000 embryos that deteriorate over time on refrigeration in the US every year? They are going into the garbage. They are not being used to mature into babies. They have a shelf life and if they are not nurtured and implanted, nothing is done with them except that they are thrown away. This defies logic. If you had only say 15 of them to use an extreme example in the US that might be different. But again and again, 400, 000 plus of them aren’t being used for anything and they cannot be preserved forever.

I don’t understand how you can object to this, and I could flood you with literature that embryonic stems can lead to cures that adult lines cannot. Apparently you didn’t read the article I linked from the head of the Stem Cell Research Labs at Stanford Medical Center. If these individuals could use adult lines for the multiple potentials they have, they would.

Why is it exactly that opponents of using these embryonic stem cells from the hundreds of thousands of embryos to be discarded haven’t gotten a movement going to ban in vitro fertilization or to prohibit fertility clinics from creating and discarding excess embryos.

As I’ve pointed out repeatedly, you can’t keep these hundreds of thousands of embryos on the shelf for longer than a few months before they deteriorate to the point they are not useful for anything and cannot become viable humans.

The arguments against continuing this reasearch since we are already realizing substantive clinical value from it remind me of the arguments against people who said boxes could fly in the air. There are planes now, although the failure to prevent 911 and fuel addiction have greatly altered air travel and the cost of flying.

If you read the interview I linked twice, and copied twice, the physician who directs Stanfords Clinic has made it clear that they are producing meiotic germ cells from stem cells, and they are moving towards treating infertility by producing a healthy egg and sperm with these cells.

As everyone knows who has friends who have tried IVF, it can be very expensive, and painful and heartbreaking. As the interview says, inserting multiple embryos into the woman “often leads to multiple births and devestating miscarriages.” And the physician who runs one of the cutting edge stem cell labs in the country makes clear that only about 11 of those original lines that Bush (far from a physician who will go to his grave not having done a day of med school) allowed in 2001.

The US is vastly underperforming in embryonic stem cell research because of Bush, and he’s going to be excised on January 20 like a rapidly expanding tumor. He will have left a lot of malignancy behind, but much of it including his Executive Orders vintage December 2008 will be reversed.

“The bottom line is: Although we have improved our methods to make embryonic stem cells, we’re still limited to using these poor-quality stem cell lines, which are not valuable for learning about human embryonic development. “

Read the article I linked. In the near future, we aren’t going to be hamstrung and limited to poorly performing cell lines. Bush is no longer calling the shots. Bush go bye bye.

Right now, whether you believe it or not, we have lost about 15 of the top stem cell researchers in the US to Singapore. They didn’t leave for the money. A husband and wife team from the University of California medical center, arguably one of the most progressive medical centers in the country, one of whom was the Dean, left a year and a half ago for Singapore. They had plenty of money. That wasn’t the reason they left the US and they had great jobs here.

Progress of Human Embryonic Research Impacted by Public Funding

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/110063.php

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this

I noticed that I cite references as well—sorry for the mispelling of cite. I’ve also cited some useful and compelling sites.

By GodHatesTrash

December 20, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this

Now RightWingnuts, most decent people thought the New Life Church was an abomination loooong before this sad little hypocrite had his coming out party.

Mega-church Xianity is nothing more than insanity and hype, and doesn’t have a gawddamn thing to do with God.

Unless your god is Mammon.

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this

To Taxpayer

Yawn.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this

I’m so proud of myself, I got Chad Harris, while still a bit long winded, at least there was minimal sputtering rage.

But, the question still remains-

Actual cures are many years away, though, since research has not progressed to the point where even one cure has yet been generated by embryonic stem cell research.

We are talking cures, not wild goose chases.

Try again.

By The Corporal

December 20, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this

To AJC/DNC

You’re on slippery ground there will old Chad.

Watch your back.

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Without trying to sound superior, AJC I’m the one of us who has spent my adult life in medicine. I’m the one who by necessity in part, and interest as well has followed a staggering amount of medical research and journals and developments, travelled to the meetings, and we would hope, has kept up.

I also have a hobby of computer and software. It’d be just great if wham bam thank you mam was the MO for how things get done in medicine or with computers.

Unfortunately that’s not the case and I believe you know that.

If MSFT or Apple or any of the Linux shops had 2-3 developers working on projects a year, damn little progress would be made. The same goes for all these toys on the Best of 2008 gadget lists that are proliferating this week. A lot of them are cool. A lot of the camera technology is cool. Although the Iphone works well enough, and I have one to play with the apps and have made it access my network at home wherever I am without buying Apple’s Mobile me using free Live Sync (Mesh is a work in progress) it’s not the best wireless mobile network out there by a long shot.

Very probably if you travel and are in hotels and other places all over the US or elsewhere, you’ll find that Sprint’s celular web is much faster than Wifi.

It’s the same with medicine or anything else. A lot of what someone in your family or your parents or someone close to you is using medically didn’t get done quickly. I could site you scores of examples but I imagine anyone could and you could as well.

Penicillin was being palled around with to use a phrase that was stupidly used back in the campaign by Fleming in the 1920’s. We didn’t realize its full potential actually until it was rolled out during the end of WWII—and as everyone knows more soldiers died of pneumococcal or what is now called Strep. Pneumonia than they did guns or bombs. We had a pretty good thing going with Penicillin early on but that quickly vanished because unfortunately docs began to use it for a ton of bugs and use it promiscuously and use it for viral infections inappropriately and quickly resistance began to build and then there was Keflex—Penicillin with a side chain.]

My point is that many areas of research require a lot of work from the best and brightest and you understand that as well as anyone. We thought we had HIV nailed, but believe me if you were to be in a question and answer session with Tony Fauci at the NIH who runs Infectious Disease there and is responsible for dishing out a lot of the money for HIV research and has been in and out of the oval for Presidents on both sides of the aisle since Daddy Bush, he would tell you that he is less optimistic that things are going to happen fast than he was a few years ago. We have a long way to go there.

If you read the stem literature, and plenty is on the web but you have to be careful whether you’re reading someone who has a religious political agenda or who is a top flite researcher (because the best and brightest are going where they can use embryonic stems whethere its funding in California or Singapore or China) then you realize that terrific progress is in fact being made. You keep simplistically talking about cure.

If your hand gets cut off before Saturday Night Live by an accident tonight, you’ll be damn glad to get a new one. And you’d rather get a real one than the thing that Teddy has in Prison Break. Hands and other organs are being made now. Kidneys are being made now, and lungs, and pancreas and other organs are not far behind.

I don’t know what your grip on ischemic heart disease is, but a lot of us in medicine spend an awful lot of time worrying about how to prevent it and deal with it. We are actually making heart muscle now, in real patients, and keeping them from going into CHF some of the time using embryonic stems. Is this wide spread? Not yet. But it will be.

We have a ton of progress in making insulin producing cells from embryonic stems and the adult cell lines do not work nearly as well for nearly all of these situations including many I don’t have time or space to touch on.

So you can jump up and down and say there aren’t any cures but you’re dead wrong.

And you never addressed why the Religious Right or whomever opposess embryonic stem cell research for goofey religious reasons and not for scientific ones (there’s nothing scientific about rattling off scripture like my friend Corporal although scripture is interesting literature and provides solace and hope that has never been proven to a lot of people and an excuse to be cruel and oppressive to a lot more like Rick Warren.

I gave you examples of cures and I gave you examples where cures are coming soon.

One more thing to note. There are a lot of ways to p** someone off, but let’s take one. Suppose you or I show up at a kiddy football game or Little League baseball. And suppose we jump out of the stands and onto the field and we grab a kid and hold the kid—let’s say we’re a parent on one side and we grab the other side’s running back and hold him when he has the ball. A lot of people aren’t going to be real happy. While you hold the kid, he ain’t making the yardage that Mr. Turner hopes to make in Minnesota tomorrow evening.

I don’t know how many ways to emphasize to you, but I’ve provided the articles that we have fallen behind in the US and worldwide research has fallen behind since we usually do a good part of it percentage wise because medical researchers haven’t had their hands on embryonic stems in a lot of venues since 2001 when Bush foreclosed upon them.

I’ve tried to emphasize to you that many many medicines that you take for granted or procedures didn’t happen over night. So you’re a little premature to b*** that their haven’t been cures and being narrow minded. There have been cures. We have sickle cell kids now who have been greatly improved and we’re moving toward cures. We have transplanted hands where there were no hands from emb stems.

We have patients who have gained back their burned damaged heart muscle that was killed from Ischemia.

At American Heart a couple months ago in New Orleans there were reports of this. And a study announced there called Jupiter that you can google found that patients with normal lipid values but elevated C-Reactive Protein which is a simple inexpensive test, who were still treated with Crestor, one of the Statins and it could have been many others, cut the outcome of 1) Death 2) Unstable Angina 3) CVA or Stroke 4) The need for stents in half.

This study wasn’t a perfect study and none of them are. For one thing, 40% of the normal lipid individuals had other risks that were significant like hypertension, obesity, etc. that we call Metabolic Syndrome and other names. But it was still significant. More work needs to be done to be sure.

So what I’m telling you is embryonic stems are not something that anyone who knows anything about them is ready to discard as some here have suggested doing. The vast majority of the medical community in this country wants that ban lifted. Sure you can find Religious Right docs who don’t. No doubt Phil Gingery from the Georgia 11th is one, and he helped thousands of people as a caring OBGYN in Marietta for many years. But he’s wrong, and Phil’s motivated on religious and ideological grounds and fortunately he’s not going to be making the decision nor is the former orthopedic surgeon Tom Price from the Georgia 6th.

It would be a terrible mistake to stop embryonic research, and fortunately this c ountry is not going to make that mistake.

You come back and tell me it was worthless in a few years. And tell me about anything medical anyone in your family benefits from that was an overnight discovery or was helped because the physicians working toward that goal had their hands tied beind their backs. I’m all ears for that.

The people who thought that they had made advances in 2007 with adult cells have now retracted a good deal of their entusiasm both in Minnesota and abroad, and they never ever argued that embryonic research should be abandoned when they made their discovery and I quoted their work and its limitations in my first lengthy post.

I may not convince you, or the Right Winger bible thumping people here, but the voters have gotten the stem cell close to being lifted now.

While I always respect someone’s faith, and its value to them, and the social value of churches, study groups, youth groups, and people behaving themselves in them on Sundays at least, I have never needed to touch the Bible to learn something that has saved a life or made somoene well.

And I realize for you to call the research I’ve cited a “wild goose chase” is just, and I’m not trying to denigrate you, your failure to understand basic medicine. The article in NYT Monday elicited some very important progress in infertility and the physician said they are about half way there. I don’t know how you can call that a wild goose chase unless you’re overcome be a wave of pure medical ignorance. I don’t know how you can call insulin producing cells and sickle cells changed to normal goose chases. For those individuals who now have functioning Heart Muscle who were in Stage III and IV CHF, goose chase is not what they and their cardiologists are calling newly grown muscle from embryonic stems. The Israelis who grew the kidney from emb stems aren’t calling it a goose chance, because that organ biopsies and functions as a kidney with normal glomeruli and normal kidney physilogy.

You have a strange definition of “goose chase” but fortunately it is not one shared by the medical community and their patients who are benefitting.

I’ve done my best here, and I’m not writing a paper for a journal but I have.

By AJC/DNC Management

December 20, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this

One question, if embryonic stem cells are so “promising,” then why does government need to fund them?

By Chad Harris

December 20, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this

The question of why any public funding is needed is often asked.

A lot of time is wasted because now researchers are required to account for every nanomolecule of material they use to proove it’s not publically funded. It’s analagous to having to argue with some moron when a kid or adult has a potential hot appendix and you have to g lean on the HMO to get them evaluated in some private ERs even though they have all the criteria that is compelling including rebound pain migration from the umbilicus towards McBurney’s point.

2) We are falling significantly behind the UK, Israel, China, Singapore, and Australis, the Czech Republic because many university settings can’t afford to do the research which is very expensive particularly in this current pending depression or the environment that Paul Krugman’s newest book analyzes and describes.

These other countries have contributed to a large number of medical advancements that you and your family and friends enjoy and take for granted over the years. They wouldn’t be funding this research if it were a “wild goose chase” as you termed it. They have seen tangible results and realize tha potential and that it is medically crazy not to fund it publically.

The work is going on and we can’t end the progress in the world by legislating against progress, or as been the case with Bush being scientifically stupid.

And lest you think if another country makes a break through discover that furthers the potential to replace sick non-working insulin producing cells in the pancreas, that it will jump here in real time, that’s not how it works. Without the lab facilities and initiative and clinical facilities in hospitals and clinics here, it can take years to realize what’s going on abroad.

From NEJM (New England Journal of Medicine):

[http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/17/1789]Embryonic Stem-Cell Research — The Case for Federal Funding (www.ajc.com)

A recent study widely being cited in Ga. Tech Asst. Prof’s new book details this.

That means that although we have some of the most talented researchers they aren’t getting out of the gate. And although California passed the initative, very little money has actually gotten into the hands of researchers there to begin to this day.

The UK is producing 5.3% more emb stem research and Israel 4.6% according to studies and Dr. Levine’s new book.

The study is in the Journal Cell Stem Cell.

If another country is able to get to the stage to routinely inject the endodermal pancreatic cells into diabetics, and we don’t have trials done here, it will mean that patients here would have to travel abroad to get the treatments and to get the treatments approved here, the trials are an inevitable requirement. Since we have a lot of patients who have trouble travelling a few miles to Grady for various reasons, they aren’t likely to be able to go abroad to get treated.

We are already experiencing a brain drain because a considerable number of the top stem cell researchers have already left the US for Singapore and other countries where they can pursue their research and make substantive clinical progress.

I’d like you to address why your bretheren and sisterin who are against public funding haven’t made a peep about IVF clinics and why you think it’s such a great idea to throw away 400,000 plus frozen embryos every year?

By sTEVEmd2

December 21, 2008 3:45 AM | Link to this

Hagaard is like so many of the right wing christos’ who hate anything to do with gay rights. Because they hate themselves for being secretly gay.

The diabolical genius of the closet - certainly the catholic heirarchy - is that it gets people to hate themselves, and in the process cast out that hatred on others. The people who came up with this one would do hitler proud in Mein Kampf. And in an out of print book i read in the 50’s, “I was hitler’s doctor”, the writer says that hitler was actually the illegitimate son of a jew. Think about how in late 1800s Catholic Europe, how terrible it was to be Jewish, and to be illegitimate.

So hitler hated himself. And one of the early lessons in psychology classes is about the mentioned “projection”, where people who hate themselves, cast out their hatred on others to sooth their ruptured soul.

That is what so much of homophobia is about. Hatred used and promulgated in the name of Jesus. To protect the right wing churches who are filled with self hating gays and other people, who are so brainwashed they don’t even realize what they are doing.

I hope Haggard enjoyed his BJ’s. Tell him I know someone who will be glad to pay him to keep him happy. And a lots of the others as well, whose religion is spelled “HYPOCRISY”

By @@

December 21, 2008 6:12 AM | Link to this

Nice hatchet job, jay. And it looks like you or someone else nailed him right between the eyes.

As a consequence, he has been cast out into the wilderness by those who profess love and community

I KNOW!!! When I saw how the leftists on these blogs attacked him, it was disconcerting to say the least.

He made the choice to solicit a male prostitute and he’s made a choice to be bitter.

He can’t fix his past indiscretions, but he can certainly choose not to be bitter.

I have little to no patience for those who blame their circumstances on external forces.

By GOP is gone

December 21, 2008 7:21 AM | Link to this

Now ladies, can we talk here?

I mean really, how many of you would have not thought this guy is gay after hearing him talk and watching his manorisms? My dog would have known he was gay.

I work with some of the sissyest acting men who used to be married with children. Come on, if they know shoes better than you and love to watch Sex in the City for the fashion tips, there are not all man.

If he talks like a girl and walks like a girl, he is probably a girl.

By Mattachine

December 21, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

What if you’re part of a religion that doesn’t use a literal interpretation of the Bible? There are many denominations of Christianity that accept gays as they are, and also several that perform gay marriages.

Why does one group of Christians believe they speak for all?

Furthermore, what if you aren’t Christian anyway? Many folks aren’t.

What if you’re belief system says nothing about sexuality other than to be honest and loyal to the one you love?

By The Corporal

December 21, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

To Mattachine

I’m not sure I get your point.

All of what you said would apply to prostitution and bigamny (to name a few) yet we legislate against both of those and the Supreme Court has upheld those laws.

Are those laws a Christian/moral impingement on someone rights ??

If you think so, you had better so advise the Supreme Court.

By Mattachine

December 22, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this

Rather than bring up a different issue, why not answer my questions? I wasn’t talking about the topics you brought up (and neither were you, originally).

By viktor

December 24, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

i remember seeing an interview with haggard in a richard dawkins documentary titled “the root of all evil?”. after seeing his response to some of the questions dawkins was asking, i saw him as another ignorant believer who in my opinion, is detrimental for the evolution of civil rights. now, after learning about his true sexual preference, i see him not as ignorant, but as another individual that has been brainwashed by the christian front. this story shows once again that sexual preference is not a choice, and until this fact is understood and taught to our children, stories like this will keep surfacing. sure, the way he has ministered to others was hypocrisy, but can you really blame individuals who have grown into a system that preaches that what they have is the one and only truth, and everyone else are to be sent of to this fairy tail land of fire? being on the far left myself, i not only have no ill will against this man, but instead welcome him to what hopefully turns into a new way of understanding for him. you are not a loser, sir. you are human, like everyone else. may you take this new found freedom and run with it.

By Steven Spence

January 11, 2009 4:27 PM | Link to this

The Spirit that is regarded last by those that love interpretation of scripture will be first while the smallest of points overlooked will render all the interpretations last/meaningless. The hurricanes, tsunami and all the events with Bush and the money loss in the stock market were all predicted by a seer that started by learning from the Spirit only to know the true intentions of the heart of Jesus. www.dnatree.us

John baptized with water [which is understanding] but the spirit that comes after such understanding is one that baptizes with fire [experience to the soul]. Are You willing to go through the humiliation and misunderstanding of those that love interpretation and reject the Spirit.

Jesus shows that he spends time in wilderness and through temptation/experience and being open to the Spirit you are then ministered to by the Spirit. The experience/temptation configures your mind and intention to be open to the answer that is to come from the Spirit. A horse that is not thirsty will not drink. Therefore interpretation is next to meaningless. But a true experience with the Spirit is all there is to growing in the Spirit.

Now John the Baptist being his cousin and being a little older was the first to share experience with Jesus at a younger age and it is through this experience and the fact that Jesus holds John’s wilderness experience as so worthy in saying there was none greater that came before him.

It was known by Jesus that the RELIGIOUS that take over the story would belittle true wilderness experience and true experience with the Spirit [reject the spirit] as that is what interpreters do. So in saying “Suffer it to be so in order to fulfill all righteousness meant that those taught by the Spirit will need this in order to know the truth about such experience because the religious are fixin to steal the story and amplify the misunderstanding.

It is well documented what Jesus knew that the religious would do with the story as he wrote about the parables in this way.

So seeing they cannot see and hearing they cannot hear [they will misunderstand using interpretation]

So it was known that the religious would return the whole story to the law and being good and following the leader as they always love those things of the world and reject the Spirit that teaches alone in the wilderness.

By P. S. Spence

January 11, 2009 4:50 PM | Link to this

The Spirit that is regarded last by those that love interpretation of scripture will be first while the smallest of points overlooked will render all the interpretations last/meaningless. The hurricanes, tsunami and all the events with Bush and the money loss in the stock market were all predicted by a seer that started by learning from the Spirit only to know the true intentions of the heart of Jesus. www.dnatree.us

John baptized with water [which is understanding] but the spirit that comes after such understanding is one that baptizes with fire [experience to the soul]. Are You willing to go through the humiliation and misunderstanding of those that love interpretation and reject the Spirit.

Jesus shows that he spends time in wilderness and through temptation/experience and being open to the Spirit you are then ministered to by the Spirit. The experience/temptation configures your mind and intention to be open to the answer that is to come from the Spirit. A horse that is not thirsty will not drink. Therefore interpretation is next to meaningless. But a true experience with the Spirit is all there is to growing in the Spirit.

Now John the Baptist being his cousin and being a little older was the first to share experience with Jesus at a younger age and it is through this experience and the fact that Jesus holds John’s wilderness experience as so worthy in saying there was none greater that came before him.

It was known by Jesus that the RELIGIOUS that take over the story would belittle true wilderness experience and true experience with the Spirit [reject the spirit] as that is what interpreters do. So in saying “Suffer it to be so in order to fulfill all righteousness meant that those taught by the Spirit will need this in order to know the truth about such experience because the religious are fixin to steal the story and amplify the misunderstanding.

It is well documented what Jesus knew that the religious would do with the story as he wrote about the parables in this way.

So seeing they cannot see and hearing they cannot hear [they will misunderstand using interpretation]

So it was known that the religious would return the whole story to the law and being good and following the leader as they always love those things of the world and reject the Spirit that teaches alone in the wilderness.

Recently in the news a prominent preacher that got in trouble would use what he learned from the Spirit but this thing would be ultimately rejected by the religious as well thinking he was looking for an excuse.