Home > Jay Bookman > Archives > 2008 > December > 18 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USObama and the Rev. Rick Warren
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
So Barack Obama asks the Rev. Rick Warren to give the inaugural invocation, and controversy ensues.
On one hand, the outrage is understandable. The gay community has every right to feel offended and to have expected better from Obama, especially given that Warren has spouted some real nonsense about gay marriage and California’s Proposition 8. If you don’t think gay Americans should be able to marry, say so. But don’t fabricate some fantasy about gay marriage being a violation of your free speech or the freedom of religion, as Warren did.
On the other hand, I get the sense that Obama really does intend to try something new. He said as much in his response to the controversy, explaining “that dialogue, I think, is part of what my campaign’s been all about: That we’re not going to agree on every single issue, but what we have to do is to be able to create an atmosphere when we — where we can disagree without being disagreeable and then focus on those things that we hold in common as Americans.”
While that sounds all touchy-feely and kumbaya-ish, it may disguise some hard-headed political calculation.
In many ways, the Republican Party of the last 20 years has been a collection of unrelated interest groups joined in an unholy alliance of necessity. In effect, the gay bashers joined forces with the gun advocates and the low-taxers and the neocons and the free traders and the anti-enviros, and they all agreed to support each other’s issues in lockstep. (That’s true of all political parties, by the way — we’re just talking a difference of degree here).
A lot of the GOP success in the past 20 years — and a lot of the Democrats’ frustration — can be explained by how tightly that alliance has held together. Obama may see a shot at breaking it apart. If he disagrees with Warren on gay rights but they share common ground on global warming or health care, he’ll take Warren’s help to accomplish what they can on those issues.
Conversely, when the topic turns to gay rights, Obama can try to recruit allies in the corporate sector who opposed him on money issues. It’s a very old maxim, divide and conquer. It’s coalition-breaking in the guise of coalition-building.
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Comments
By sunshine and thunder
December 18, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
JAY
Let’s all hold hands and sing.
By Davo
December 18, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
Hopefully this will quell some of the hysteria from the red states. I don’t agree with much of BO’s policies but at least we have the beginning of inclusiveness and leadership.
By Wyld Byll
December 18, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
Jay, you raise very goods points in this piece. I could not have written it any better than you dia. Thanks.
By joey
December 18, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
Another theory: The Reverend Wright and his Church and many other predominatly Black Churches oppose gay and lesbian marriage. P-E Obama and spouse and other close advisors agree, but do not want to declare that openly.
Thus Obama brings in a white Christian hardliner to set the table. So to speak.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this
Jay, Billy Graham has given every invocation at every inauguration since Richard Nixon. He’s gotten so old that he can’t do it anymore. I’d have rather seen Grahams son do it but Rick Warren is a far better pick than Jeremiah Wright. You may disagree with Pastor Warren but Jeremiah Wright is the racist bigot. Not Warren. There are a lot of democrats that do not believe in gay marriage. Take it up with them because at least with conservatives you know where they stand. Also, I don’t think you can be angry with Pastor Warren over gay marriage when gay marriage has been voted down in every single state in America.
By concerned
December 18, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
This is ridiculous. The choice may be able an attempt at unity, but in the end, this will only lead to division. Choosing someone so bereft with hatred for a minority can only lead to divisions.
It astounds me that the Obama Transition Team thinks this is acceptable, but what further astounds me is that the media is defending the choice. It just goes to show how little movement has actually been made on the acceptance of LGBT folks in society today. If Warren were an anti-semetic minister, everyone would be calling for him to be removed from the program. If Warren were pro-slavery, everyone would be calling for him to be removed from the program.
This isn’t about unity. It is about quashing the voices of millions of Americans.
By Soixante huitard
December 18, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this
While that sounds all touchy-feely and kumbaya-ish, it may disguise some hard-headed political calculation.
Not quite so shrewd as you’re suggesting, I suspect.
Anyway, his statement is the precise opposite of kumbaya-ish because it calls for a facing up to differences in the toughest and realest sense, not in the PC sense of smoothing them over just so we can get in a big circle and sing hyms together, in the sense of swallowing a bitter pill. Kumbaya means pretending we’re all one because there are no differences that ultimately matter. Here we’re talking about asserting our oneness while holding all those differences in full view - quite a different proposition - even if they might be ones we’d be willing to slit each other’s throats about — and NOT FORGETTING THAT. Yes, quite a different thing entirely.
Frankly it’s humorous to see all these liberal weenies whining and jumping up and down like like jumping jacks. I have no sympathy for them.
By concerned
December 18, 2008 5:33 PM | Link to this
This is ridiculous. The choice may be able an attempt at unity, but in the end, this will only lead to division. Choosing someone so bereft with hatred for a minority can only lead to divisions.
It astounds me that the Obama Transition Team thinks this is acceptable, but what further astounds me is that the media is defending the choice. It just goes to show how little movement has actually been made on the acceptance of LGBT folks in society today. If Warren were an anti-semetic minister, everyone would be calling for him to be removed from the program. If Warren were pro-slavery, everyone would be calling for him to be removed from the program.
This isn’t about unity. It is about quashing the voices of millions of Americans.
By getalife
December 18, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this
I think a wingnut giving a inaugural invocation is okay but there are many non political preachers who do better work than engage in politics.
When wingnuts use money from their congregations to influence policy and elections, it is not separation of church and state and they should be taxed to stop it.
By Class of '98
December 18, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the laugh Jay. So the REPUBLICAN party is dominated by “a collection of unrelated interest groups joined in an unholy alliance of necessity”?
That’s priceless. I could list a hundred special interest groups that vote Democratic, and they would have very little, if any, connections among them.
I don’t want to use too much bandwith doing so, but thanks again for the laughs.
That’s why I read your blog anyway.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this
concerned, I’m a little confused. First of all, millions of Americans voted down gay marriage. Gay marriage was on the ballet in many states and was voted down in every single one of them. Even the most liberal states voted it down. By the way, the voices of America spoke and the answer was NOOOOOOOOOO.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this
getalife, Do you attend church? I highly doubt it because you would know that churches can not get involved politically. And, you would know that a church can not give money to any political party. Why? Taxes, thats why. Churches are tax exempt. Maybe you should do you homework and spend less time in conspiracy theories.
By Soixante huitard
December 18, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
Jay, you’re right on the verge of a profound insight here (On the other hand, I get the sense that Obama really does intend to try something new.) but then you just careen right by it.
There’s really no need to seek for some evidence of Realpolitik here on Obama’s part. What if there is simply a deep and abiding sincerity in the man to smash apart the old cynicism in order to - as you very correctly say - build something new but where what is being built IS its own justification and doesn’t have to be justified by some political calculation.
Now, talk about radical. Wouldn’t THAT be something truly radical?
By AJC/DNC Management
December 18, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
On the other hand, I get the sense that Obama really does intend to try something new. He said as much in his response to the controversy, explaining “that dialogue, I think, is part of what my campaign’s been all about: That we’re not going to agree on every single issue
Yeah and so far, it has been the libs getting screwed.
And what’s up with these gay people, always getting hysterical about every little thing, can’t they just take it like a man, uh, oh yeah, never mind.
My bad.
By concerned
December 18, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this
Uncle Fun,
And by that you actually mean: Millions of bigots who want to reserve the right to divorce for straight folks.
Glad we’re on the same page.
For the record, not every state has voted gay marriage down. Look things up before you cite them. And beyond those that have voted not to make it illegal, it is actually legal in two.
I simply do not understand what straight people have with marriage - why is it so important that this LEGAL STRUCTURE be reserved for you? You are not special. You should not have any more rights than anyone else. Sure, have god bless whatever you want, but that is a church matter. The state should give the benefits of a union to whatever two people are willing to enter that union, regardless of the gender of those folks.
And why the Obama camp has decided it wants to pull the inauguration into the debate of this issue is completely beyond me.
By JDBalsoGwinnett
December 18, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this
To getalife: Really get a life.
By concerned
December 18, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this
Uncle Fun,
And by that you actually mean: Millions of bigots who want to reserve the right to divorce for straight folks.
Glad we’re on the same page.
For the record, not every state has voted gay marriage down. Look things up before you cite them. And beyond those that have voted not to make it illegal, it is actually legal in two.
I simply do not understand what straight people have with marriage - why is it so important that this LEGAL STRUCTURE be reserved for you? You are not special. You should not have any more rights than anyone else. Sure, have god bless whatever you want, but that is a church matter. The state should give the benefits of a union to whatever two people are willing to enter that union, regardless of the gender of those folks.
And why the Obama camp has decided it wants to pull the inauguration into the debate of this issue is completely beyond me.
By sunshine and thunder
December 18, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
Some kimbayaish quotes from our “peace-loving”, “unifying” liberal friends:
You don’t have the money to fund the war or children. But you’re going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the president’s amusement…..President Bush’s statements about children’s health shouldn’t be taken any more seriously than his lies about the war in Iraq. The truth is that Bush just likes to blow things up in Iraq, in the United States, and in Congress.”
Pete Stark (D-Ca.)
“The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not ‘terrorists’ or the ‘enemy.’ They are the Revolution, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow - and they will win.”
Michael Moore (very poor film maker)
“Without GSA (Gay Straight Alliance) access, students are forced to simply kill classmates who taunt or bully - shooting, stabbing and poisoning are the common forms of retribution.”
www.gaystraightalliance.org
“Ladies and gentlemen, what happened in New Orleans could happen anywhere”…..”They are studying this model of natural disasters, dispersing the community and changing the electoral process in that community.”
Mayor Ray Nagin (D-New Orleans claiming that blacks are being forced to relocate from his city.)
“You could argue that even the world’s worst fascist dictators at least meant well. They honestly thought were doing good things for their countries by suppressing blacks/eliminating Jews/eradicating free enterprise/repressing individual thought/killing off rivals/invading neighbors, etc… Bush set a new precedent. He came into office with the attitude of ‘I’m so tired of the public good. What about my good? What about my rich friends’ good?”’
Peter Mehlman (Washington Post Sports Writer)
“We will not allow the Slave Holders that Still Prevail in this Country to Rule us any longer … The Administration is Criminal and if they will not step down, we must storm in, show them how many of us do not accept a criminal government.”
United for Peace and Justice (Anti-War Protest Group)
“I have been writing about terrorism for 25 years always using the official U.S. definition [of the word ‘terrorist’], but that definition is un-usable, and the reason is that when you use that definition it turns out, not surprisingly,that the U.S is one of the leading terrorist states, and the other states become terrorist or non-terrorist depending on how they are relating to U.S. goals.”
Noam Chomsky (MIT Progagandameister, Communist Lunatic)
That’s all for now.
Read more.
By Paul
December 18, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this
I love the irony. Pres-elect Obama reaches out to an evangelical preacher (can I simplify and say ‘the right’?), the preacher accepts, and it’s the other political spectrum (gay community, ‘the left’?) that blows a gasket. The ‘right’ accommodates the new accomodationist President-elect and the ‘left’ rejects any who aren’t in agreement. I’ve heard of no united opposition (one can always find a few dissenters) from Rev Warren’s Saddleback Church congregation.
BTW - Pres-elect Obama is on record as opposing gay marriage. What did the gay community expect?
By Soixante huitard
December 18, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this
*BTW - Pres-elect Obama is on record as opposing gay marriage. What did the gay community expect?”
He’s also on record as saying that “he’s open to the possibility that he’s wrong”, an astonishingly honest and reasonable position for a politician to take.
By spankmonkey
December 18, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this
Marriage is a failed institution anyway. It should be removed from the legal arena and left to organized religion, like baptism or something like that.
As a man you’re better off co-habitating and having children, legally your paternity rights are EXACTLY the same (slim to none, the more conservative the area, the fewer rights as a dad you have.), and you won’t community property issues and possible alimony issues to deal with when it ends, and it will end for 75% of you who get married next year…
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this
concerned, What state voted in favor of gay marriage? I looked it up. NADA. Mass was forced in to it by judges as was California. So, in your mind millions of Americans are in favor of divorce? Do you have data to back up millions of Americans wanting divorce? You can call me a bigot all you want but it’s not going to get you anywhere. Attacking people because they don’t believe in gay marriage is a little hypocritical. Especially since I keep hearing the word “tolerance” thrown around by libs. The people have spoken. Go take it up with your own party.
By spanmonkey
December 18, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
It’s a bone… take it, there’s probably more where that came from, this is what he said he was gonna do… try to be inclusive, that means listening to BOTH sides of the gay marriage issue… BOTH sides, what a concept… in this case he actually comes down on your side of the issue. That this failed institution should be saved from gay people.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this
Soixante huitard, YOU WROTE: He’s also on record as saying that “he’s open to the possibility that he’s wrong”, an astonishingly honest and reasonable position for a politician to take.
If he can not make up his mind and develop his own convictions then I think we are in REAL trouble. You can’t be for something and then not for something at the same time. That’s what got John F. Kerry in trouble.
spankmonkey, I’m married and I love it. Maybe if people married each other for the right reasons instead of for money, lust or whatever else, I think we’d be better off as a country. I hate divorce. Divorce is usually a cop out between two people who are too lazy to work things out. And anyone who says divorce doesn’t affect children should not get married.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 6:15 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
I knew you plagarized because you aren’t that clever.
Watch my posts all you want, maybe you’ll learn something.
Just got back from Ugh, the mall. That is my hell.
Noam Chomsky is awesome - love reading his work on linguistics.
By cherl camya
December 18, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
does anyone read the bible anymore!! does the left care what GOD thinks about homosexuality??? have you ever prayed and asked HIS opinion on all this… or do you think you have all the answers.I hope Obama continues to upset the status cuo.It will give you all something to complain about
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
Wait until these wacko gay rights people start demonstrating.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 6:20 PM | Link to this
Bosch, Noam Chomsky is a tool who hates America. I went back and watched an old clip of William Buckley ripping him a new one. Anyone with half a brain knows that if a dictator like Hugo Chavez loves Noam Chomsky it means that Noam Chomsky is a loser.
By sunshine and thunder
December 18, 2008 6:22 PM | Link to this
Barack Obama is trying real hard to be all things to all people. He should listen to Bill Cosby:
I don’t know the secret to success but the secret to failure is trying to please everybody.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
The Corporal, Like the peaceful protest of gays in Cali? The kind that will end up getting churches burned down? Yeah, I can’t wait for that one.
By Paul
December 18, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this
Soixante 6:02
I believe Pres-elect Obama’s in favor of civil unions. I’ve stated in the past - if people would not get hung up on nouns and look at the concept and specifics we could make progress. But the gay community insist on using the word ‘marriage’ which is a red flag to the religious (left and right) communities. I’ve even heard some assert to use different words to describe the arrangement is in itself indicative of inequality. Amazing.
But they’ll both keep going, the donations will continue to roll in and the heads of the groups will continue with their jobs and influence. Money and power, again.
Uncle Fun 6:12
Possibly what Pres-elect Obama means is that he has an open mind. For instance, a scientist and/or doctor may have the conviction/surety/belief that ulcers are caused by stress and other factors and can be controlled by diet, meditation and drugs. Along come a couple of researchers flying in the face of the accepted wisdom and demonstrate they’re caused by a virus - and win a Nobel Prize in the process.
Bosch
Thanks for the kind words earlier. Operation went five hours, was a bit dicey but successful. One more to go. His wife was admitted a week before him - high-risk pregnancy and her water broke about 32 weeks. Son discharged on Sat, she began labor Sunday and 82 minutes later a grandson entered this life. As my son said, “such a considerate fellow.” In the neonatal ICU for indeterminate time, doing well.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 6:27 PM | Link to this
P.S.
And ….. sounds like he is instituting an old Arab proverb:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Hummmmm ……..
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this
Uncle Fun,
Noam Chomsky is a brilliant linguist. He’s over the top, I’ll give you that, but I like his work. You just disagree with him - he’s far from being a loser.
Cheryl,
PLEASE tell us all - what does God think of homosexuals? But first of all, who the hell do you think you are? Do you honestly think you are some super being who could even begin to interpret for all of us what God thinks? And how do you know God is a guy?
By Paul
December 18, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
Oh, Bosch, getalife, RW - thanks for the positive thoughts and prayers. It’s all energy - and it works. Thanks.
By Felix
December 18, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
So how would the African-American population of Atlanta feel about having David Duke appear at the ceremony then? After all just because we don’t all agree with him on “certain social issues” (ie: black people are humans) doesn’t mean we shouldn’t reach out to him, right? I mean, millions of Americans do agree with him.
Or maybe it is just anti-gay bigots that you and Obama think it is OK to legitimize in spotlit positions of national honor?”
By Class of '98
December 18, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this
Bosch, I agree.
As a Christian, I always cringe when I see or hear other Christians tell non-believers that the truth is the truth simply “because the Bible says so”.
If you don’t believe in the Judeo-Christian God, the Bible is not proof of anything.
A lot of Christians are unable to grasp that concept.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this
Paul,
Glad to hear it. Are you another grandpa yet? How’s your son?
My last post wasn’t so positive, but I hate it when people presume to be able to tell me what God thinks.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this
To Felix
Hey, I am offended by Obama being there (the unborn aren’t humans).
Can’t we all just get along?
By Feliz
December 18, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this
So how would the African-American population of Atlanta feel about having David Duke appear at the ceremony then? After all just because we don’t all agree with him on “certain social issues” (ie: black people are humans) doesn’t mean we shouldn’t reach out to him, right? I mean, millions of Americans agree with him.
Or is just anti-gay bigots that you and Obama think we would be smart to legitimize with places of honor in the national spotlight?
By GodHatesTrash
December 18, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this
I was going to stay home on the 20th to watch the inauguration, but having to endure the prattle from this goon means I’ll probably not watch.
It is very sad to see Obama kowtow to the oogedy-boogedy-boo crowd.
There are really only two groups in the GOP - the Wall Streeters and Wall Streeter wannabes, and the *oogedy-boogedy-boo crowd.
And Bookman, your analysis doesn’t bear up under scrutiny. Most fundamnentalists are gundamnentalists are warmongers are homophobes are misogynists are anti-environmentalists are anti-gummint.
Look at the RightWingnut oogedy-boogedy booers that post here. Virtually all of them are all of the above.
What we had in November was decent folk soundly rejecting not only Bush but his supporters. It sickens me that Bush will share Obama’s stage on January 20th, and double ew that Warren will be there.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this
Paul,
My bad. Didn’t see your 6:26.
Class of ‘98,
I am a believer. I just think it’s wrong to try and define God.
By Soixante huitard
December 18, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this
To Uncle Fun: If he can not make up his mind and develop his own convictions then I think we are in REAL trouble.
What makes you think we need any particular ‘convictions’ as to this matter?
I can tell you that for me personally, it’s not a matter of extremely great concern.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this
Well, somebody’s gotta pray at the inauguration. And we’d be hard pressed to find anyone who would satisfy everybody.
I’ll just hit the mute button when Warren is up.
By Felix
December 18, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
So how would the African-American population of Atlanta feel about having David Duke appear at the ceremony then? After all just because we don’t all agree with him on “certain social issues” (ie: black people are humans) doesn’t mean we shouldn’t reach out to him, right? I mean, millions of Americans agree with him.
Or is just anti-gay bigots that you and Obama think we would be smart to legitimize with places of honor in the national spotlight?
By sunshine and thunder
December 18, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
God hates trash
Anymore idiotic generalizations?
By @@
December 18, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this
So this is like selling out your principles, Chicago style? Well heck….Obama oughta be great at that. He scratches their back and they scratch his.
For some reason jay, this column reminded me of the atheist display in Washington State — the one that verbally attacked religion while sitting next to a creche. A black minister from the area spoke to the inappropriateness of the sign.
The state law accomodated freedom to display provided the display was appropriate.
The minister said it was inappropriate and that it should be placed somewhere else in the capital. He goes on to say that as far as minorities go, his African American status, in Washington state, placed him at the bottom of the totem pole along with being a Christian. So I’m thinking….who comes before him?
I’m also wondering if he voted Democrat since the greater majority of African Americans do. He and I, though of different races share something in common. We’re both Christians who are tired of having our faith attacked.
Funny fella! Said he was tired of living in the “armpit” of America. No sweat! If he’s voting Democrat, switch over to Republican. We’ve got the necessary deodorant.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 6:46 PM | Link to this
Paul
I wouldn’t bring up that neonatal ICU stuff with Bosch. He gets a little touchy.
If a baby can’t survive on its own then they are just a fetus. You know, that umbilical cord and that hospital oxygen cord are the same thing. It’s really not a baby until it can breath on its own.
He and his buddy Obama agree on that.
By Paul
December 18, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
Bosch
[[I hate it when people presume to be able to tell me what God thinks]]
In the words of “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” it’s about like saying a tea leaf knows the history of the East India Company.
out for a little bit -
By GodHatesTrash
December 18, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
The truth hurts sometimes, sunshine.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this
Felix, Take it up with Obama. By the way, 70% African Americans voted down Prop 8 in Cali. David Duke hates black people and Jews. Conservatives, that I know, don’t hate gays. I don’t hate gays I just think they are wrong. Feel free to call me a bigot.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this
Class of ‘98, You’re a Christian and you don’t believe what the Bible says? Don’t get mad, I’m just trying to figure out your comment.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this
To Class of ‘98
I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.
There, how’s that?
By Soixante huitard
December 18, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this
I’ve even heard some assert to use different words to describe the arrangement is in itself indicative of inequality. Amazing.
But actually Paul, this is where I disagree. The gay marriage proponents have a real point when they say that to stop short of granting the arrangement full legitimacy through the word ‘marriage’ is an intolerable slight, tantamount to an insult.
Imagine for just a second that African Americans were allowed to enter into civil unions but their relationships weren’t thought to warrant being called actual marriages. Woudn’t that be seen as a huge slap? It’s basically the same thing..
Now, I’m saying I think that I know the answer to the dilemma. I’m like Obama. :-) I
But I do think that what may have to happen is we may have to have a reevaluation of marriage across the board and what it can mean in a modern secular society (i.e., society w/o an official religion, like the US). There may be no non-messy way to confront these things.
By AJC/DNC Management
December 18, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
By Felix December 18, 2008 6:44 PM Or is just anti-gay bigots that you and Obama think we would be smart to legitimize with places of honor in the national spotlight?
Feliz- I wouldn’t be so hard on the author^^, it isn’t his fault he got stuck with DNC duty tonight, probably just the dumb luck of the draw.
This is standard AJC/DNC as-s covering for Oblahmasan, who made another idiotic decision and/or was forced to honor a kkkampaign promise to Mr. Warren that if he didn’t make him look like a moron at Saddleback, you can speak at my inaug.
Honestly, it sounds like something Queen Pinko would have scratched out, the loving, affectionate praise of Wonder Boy followed by the wild eyed accusations of Republican Derangement Syndrome, who knows, I can never tell the two apart without a byline.
But, um, as for the larger issue, that of the “gay bashing,” I must ask, would you rather have a man of the Cloth honestly trying to defend the God given sanctity of marriage or a bunch of mealy mouth liberals slandering some gay guy for trying to pick up a date in a public restroom, which in democrat heavy Atlanta is as common as Coca-Cola?
Know what I mean?
ew
By Class of '98
December 18, 2008 7:07 PM | Link to this
Uncle Fun-
No, I certainly believe what the Bible says. What bothers me is when believers are debating with non-believers and their main argument is “because the Bible says so.”
That’s like a Muslim trying to convince me of something by saying “because the Koran says so.”
For me as a non-Muslim, it holds no water. And unfortunately, I’ve seen too many Christians resort to this argument.
By lwwmm7
December 18, 2008 7:13 PM | Link to this
Let gay people marry. They are entitled to be miserable just like the rest of us. And I can just imagine the new court TV divorce shows. Bring it on!
By Class of '98
December 18, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this
Corporal-
You missed my point. If I were a non-believer, it might as well be Ronald McDonald that claims to be the way, the truth and the life.
It wouldn’t matter to me. Scripture not an argument to a non-believer.
By Taxpayer
December 18, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this
This move by Obama is excellent. He knows that the majority of the voting public is not in favor of gay marriage. So, why alienate the majority of the voters when first taking office while knowing full well that there are much more serious issues to deal with that will need the most support that he can possibly muster. Obama is consistently demonstrating that he is not a maverick. He appears to be thinking through the issues and planning his moves carefully (so what if some of those moves may be more politically motivated as long as they do not detract from his goals or even serve a dual purpose, etc.) and that’s a good thing.
By Fredreick Douglass
December 18, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this
If Obama is the “BIG CLOSET MUSLIM” you people thought he was two months ago, why is this Christian Rick Warren even a topic? Dang, Obama’s in the deepest cover of any sleeper Muslim I’ve ever heard of, kind of makes you think the guy’s just a regular American.
By sweetwater
December 18, 2008 7:37 PM | Link to this
By sunshine and thunder
Barack Obama is trying real hard to be all things to all people. He should listen to Bill Cosby:
this text will be italicI don’t know the secret to success but the secret to failure is trying to please everybody.
I don’t think Obama is trying to be all things to all people. He wants to create a dialog between opposing points of view.
By sweetwater
December 18, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this
By sunshine and thunder
Barack Obama is trying real hard to be all things to all people. He should listen to Bill Cosby:
this text will be italicI don’t know the secret to success but the secret to failure is trying to please everybody.
I don’t think Obama is trying to be all things to all people. He wants to create a dialog between opposing points of view.
By Ted Striker
December 18, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
I wouldn’t care if the inaugural invocation was performed collectively by a witch doctor, Jimmy Swaggart and the reincarnation of Bob Marley.
I’ll just be thankful when President Bush is no longer receiving his mail at zip code 20500.
By AJC/DNC Management
December 18, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The U.N. General Assembly split over the issue of gay rights on Thursday after a European-drafted statement calling for decriminalization of homosexuality prompted an Arab-backed one opposing it.
Heh, they “threw a shoe” at the nancy boys.
Angry little people, aren’t they?
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this
Ted Striker,
I agree.
Class of ‘98,
Ronald McDonald? That’s funny. I agree with what you wrote, believe what you believe, and leave the rest of us to believe what we believe. I personally think it’s wrong to define “God” in any religion, and I certainly will never tell anyone their beliefs are wrong or void. I mean, who knows, right?
Muslims, Hindus, and every other religious person believes something. It may be different than what you believe, but it’s no less valuable.
Ronald McDonald………snicker.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this
Andy,
Ya’ know what’s funny? Most homosexuals I know are MUCH more “religious” than I am.
Weird huh?
By AJC/DNC Management
December 18, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this
Bosch: If I were them, I would pray too.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:03 PM | Link to this
To Class of ‘98
Oh, but it is through scripture that people are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin and need for a Saviour!
That’s what makes Christianity different from all …. scripture is supernatural.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
By AJC/DNC Management
December 18, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this
Oblahmasan says everyone involved — from CEOs to shareholders to investors — needs to consider not only whether what they’re doing will make them money, but also whether it’s right, and whether it conforms to “higher standards.”
Yeah boy, that act went over soooooo well in Chicago, hoo wee.
Unreal.
He’s baiting the morons, right morons?
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this
To Frederick Douglass
Only God knows the heart but He says:
not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
I like to read that verse as:
I am, the way, the truth, and the light.
(notice the comma after, “I am” - gives new meaning to the whole thing - the Greeks didn’t have the same grammar rules)
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
Off Topic
After eight years I have grown a little weary of Luckovich’s caricature of Dubya as a little monkey (or whatever he is supposed to be) with big ears, etc.
I’m anxious to see how he will treat Aytch as time goes by ………..
By Midori
December 18, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this
Ted Striker: Can I get an AMEN???
I think Obama choosing Warren is a stroke of genius.
Just look at the loon(s) fall apart.
But then, that’s the norm, isn’t it?
By Soixante huitard
December 18, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
After eight years I have grown a little weary of Luckovich’s caricature of Dubya as a little monkey (or whatever he is supposed to be) with big ears, etc.
You think that was bad, you should have seen the hyper-simian beast we got for Bush in the cartoons from the guy at The Guardiain. Positively brutal!
By Class of '98
December 18, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
Corporal-
Was Paul converted by scripture? (He wrote most of the New Testament.)
Were the earliest Christians convicted by scripture? (They were martyred decades before the Gospel was consolidated and centures before it was widely published.)
Can an illiterate person be a Christian?
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
I’m sick of Dubya - all his parts.
Ev’nin’ Midori!
By GodHatesTrash
December 18, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this
Can an illiterate person be a Christian?
Obviously!
By AJC/DNC Management
December 18, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
Bosch: It’s “the Life.”
As in eternal life.
“Light” usually comes from bulbs.
And comparing the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior to worshiping some Holstein out in the pasture would normally cause me to bombard you with foul language but since it is so close to the blessed Birth, you are forgiven.
Merry Christmas!
By sunshine and thunder
December 18, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this
GOD HATES TRASH
If you think irrational generalizations about a group of people is the “truth” you are no better than a Jim Crow redneck.
If you like, I can quote many generalizations about lunatic left nuts.
On the other hand, you know who you are.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this
To Bosch
Except you believe in Me, you are dead in your sins.
There is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved
He that believeth in Me is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already ……….
Now Bosch ……. be careful like so many that you don’t get caught in this trap:
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Stick to the truth of the Gospel. If there were another way (as He asked the Father for in the Garden just before His crucifixion), then He didn’t have to die. There was no other way. God gets to make the rules.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this
Class of ‘98,
Interesting questions.
I don’t take the Bible all that literal. To me, it’s all about the message of the Big J that I agree with and therefore consider myself a Christian (I even have the documentation to prove I’m a Christian).
Paul was a good preacher in that he wrote letters and preached to the early Christian groups and gave them the Christian message as it applies best to them. Paul contradicts himself a lot, but that’s okay with me. That’s one of the reasons I feel that we should each interpret the Bible as it applies to our own lives and use the message as we need it to fulfill our own lives.
By Midori
December 18, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
not nearly as sick as I am of your dumb jokes, overuse of bold face, and silly abortion rants.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
Andy,
Thanks.
Corporal,
And I get to interpret those rules as they apply to me. That’s the whole beauty of it.
By Taxpayer
December 18, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this
Uncle Festus used a bulb. I don’t know what wattage it was though. I wonder if he’s able to go green and light up a compact fluorescent bulb. I think he lit up a bulb at the end of a tunnel in one of the movies or shows. I think of that scenario when I think about January 20, 2009 — finally, some light. It’s been a long and dark tunnel these last eight years.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this
Andy,
One more thing. A Holstein? When did I mention a cow? Is it the Hindu reference?
And Merry Christmas to you, in a week. Right now, in my world, it’s still Advent.
By Cheryl
December 18, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this
Bosch wrote: Cheryl,
PLEASE tell us all - what does God think of homosexuals? But first of all, who the hell do you think you are? Do you honestly think you are some super being who could even begin to interpret for all of us what God thinks? And how do you know God is a guy?
Hey Bosch, that wasn’t me…… That was cherl camya
who wrote “does anyone read the bible anymore!! does the left care what GOD thinks about homosexuality??? have you ever prayed and asked HIS opinion on all this… or do you think you have all the answers.”
But I will answer her question if you don’t mind….. As far as what becomes the “Law” of this land, that answer should be obvious, NO! Nobody should care what GOD thinks about Homosexuality when it has to do with others, not as far as LAWS are concerned, because this is The United States of America, NOT HEAVEN! We are bound by the laws of this nation, not GOD’s laws, and are instructed to follow the laws of this land, which are supposed to be rooted in the Constitution, not the Bible!
Why would people who do not believe in GOD be worried about what he thinks, or people who believe in many gods, or Greek gods, or the wind, and the universe, be running their lives, and basing their Civil Rights as Americans on what YOUR interpretation of what GOD thinks? It is an abomination to the US Constitution to deny ANY citizen of this nation their basic Civil Rights, based on a theory others have which dictate “What GOD Thinks”. How Audacious for ANYONE to pretend to know what GOD Thinks!!!!
I personally think that GOD thinks that people who discriminate and hate against his other precious children, any of them, are going to be spending their eternal time, far and away from HIM!
How’s that Bosch…… Did I nail it or what?
lol
By Enoch McCarter
December 18, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this
Jay, Gay marraige has never been approved by ballot anywhere in America. It has been voted down by ballot, I think, 27 times, including twice in California. The wild anger from the nutcase left that Warren can’t give the invocation is just proof that they would disenfranchise everyone in America who disagrees with them.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this
Midori,
I certainly hope God isn’t a cow. I worked on a farm, and cows are dumb and meant to be eaten - preferably between a buttery bun with cheese, onions, mustard and ketchup!
Yum, yum.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this
To Bosch
Yes you do. Keep in mind this is what Peter said about Paul’s writings (he called them scripture)!:
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
To Midori
You are not being very nice this evening. I debate the issues but I am not being unkind to you personally. Try to take a higher road.
To Class of ‘98
You have been skipping Sunday School.
Paul and the early Christians were saved by Old Testament scripture which pointed forward to the Messiah just as the New Testament points back. No difference.
Illiterate people can still hear.
By Class of '98
December 18, 2008 8:39 PM | Link to this
No one is being denied their civil rights. All homosexual men have the same rights I do, and that includes the right to marry a woman.
Neither of us can legally “marry” another man.
That’s equal rights, if you ask me.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this
Cheryl,
Yes, I think you nailed it.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this
Cheryl
and after the eighth day He was circumcised after the manner of the Jews
He who has seen Me has seen the Father
I and the Father are one
And the disciples asked Him, “if you will just show us the Father, we will be satisfied”. And Jesus said, “Have I been with you so long already and you don’t know Me?
Oh, and one more thing, He is coming again to reign forever and ever as King …… not queen.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:42 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
Peter didn’t like Paul very much from what I’ve read, and vice versa.
By Midori
December 18, 2008 8:42 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
bah,
HUMBUG!!!
By Ted Striker
December 18, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this
It’s odd how some people vigorously oppose a woman’s right to choice saying it’s taking a life — but come up on the very opposite side of the fence regarding the death penalty.
By Cheryl
December 18, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
Hey, I am very sorry that he chose Rick Warren too….. Not because of his views on Gay marriage, it is not special, his view, it is short sighted and common, and baseless, but mostly because I think he is an opportunist, and having been at a few churches that follow his “Seeker Sensitive” approach, I find it to be fluff, and very little substance, and a whole bunch of false teaching….. Purpose Driven Life indeed….. Tickling of the ears is going on there…. and lots of it.
BUT… I am THRILLED at the other selection that was made, which was for the Rev. Dr. Joseph E. Lowery, the last of the founding duo of the SCLC, to be giving the benediction. Rev. Lowery, never thought he would live to see this day, but spent his life in preparation for it. He sacrificed everything and endured much loss and sorrow to get us here, and what a tremendous celebration it will be! I am proud and happy that we will get to see this day come forth, and so I am overlooking the Warren selection completely, and just going to bask in the glow of the occasion. Hope others will join me in celebrating!
By Midori
December 18, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this
Bosch,
moove over and give me a bite of that burger :)
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
I sure wish he’d hurry up and come back before we all either poison ourselves with toxic waste or kill each other. Just think how mad Jesus would be if he came back and we’re all dead.
Talk about disappointment.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this
NEW YORK (AP) - The Rev. Al Sharpton (aka Bozo the clown) took Caroline Kennedy to lunch Thursday at a famed Harlem soul food restaurant as she continued her quest to join her uncle in the U.S. Senate.
And this is why she should be a U.S. Senator? Total lack of common sense?
By RW-(the original)
December 18, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this
Paul,
Great news so far. Keep us posted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Can you just imagine the outrage if McCain had been elected and was surrounding himself with such a pasty white team of advisers?
Frankly I’m surprised that the whining is about who is delivering the invocation rather than that there is going to be an invocation in the first place.
By Class of '98
December 18, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this
Corporal-
My bad. For some reason I thought Paul was converted by a vision of the Cross on his way to Damascus.
My mistake.
By Taxpayer
December 18, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this
Of course another approach to selecting the person to deliver the invocation would be to ask all who wish to be given the opportunity to place their name in the “hat” and then let Obama close his eyes and reach in the hat and pull out the name of the one that was meant to be. It’s all about faith, unless of course it’s not the right person. Then, it’s the work of the devil. And, who would we trust to ensure that it was not rigged. Lawyers representing all interests would have to be called in and each entrant’s slip of paper would have to be confirmed by all and all names would have to be checked to ensure that they occurred once and only once and all slips of paper would have to be measured and weighed and compared to all other slips and then there’s the hat….
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this
To Bosch
1) I hear you but He has it under control. The point is to be ready …..
*for ye know not what hour the watchman cometh ……
2) You dodged what Peter said (very late in his life) about Paul’s writings. He called them scripture.
Always your choice ………… God forces no one.
By AJC/DNC Management
December 18, 2008 8:50 PM | Link to this
Bosch: When you lump your belief in God in with a bunch of people that won’t eat a hamburger because they believe cows are God, well, you know?
Merry Christmas!
Cheryl- I know all of this is just a stupid accident, some molecules that didn’t even exist colliding with each other and producing an almost perfect world with only one creature that is aware of their own soul, but just on the off chance that God created this so that He could bring His beloved children into His Kingdom for eternity, how do you reckon the gays are going to help out with His little project?
I’m just wondering is all.
By Midori
December 18, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
So Corporal,
having lunch with Al Sharpton denotes “lack of common sense”?
note to self — never invite Corporal out for a burger.
By Uncle Fun
December 18, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
Class of ‘98, Well said. I also agree with Christians who don’t know the origin of the Bible and those who take scripture out of context. I have different issues with Pastor Warren but I’m not about to call him a Nazi or any other name. The fact remains that NO ONE is perfect and we are all sinners. It’s only by God’s Son that we have forgiveness.
Bosch, When did Paul contradict himself? The Bible NEVER contradicts itself. Be careful that you don’t misinterpret what different versus say and mean. I remember reading someones post saying that the Bible said it was okay to stone heretics and blasphemers. Again, just be careful about interpretation. Don’t just read one verse without reading what it means, what was going on at that place and time, who was saying it and when it was taking place.
By Goldie
December 18, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this
Hey Y’all! Long time, no post. Life’s been way too hectic around the homestead and workstead lately.
But my thoughts re: Obama and Rev. Warren — I believe Obama meant what he said when he stated that it’s important to keep a dialogue open, even if we disagree with each other about certain issues. I believe our New President is making a concious effort to include varying viewpoints for his inaugaral stage, just like he is doing with his selections for his cabinet. No more Rover/Gingrich-style of demonizing and hating other Americans simply because they don’t share the same viewpoints.
I think I really like our New President so far — what a breath of fresh political air. We may end up with a real “Uniter” this time.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this
To Class of ‘98
Yes it was your mistake. He was converted by direct words (scripture) in person from the Lord ….. and we find those same words in scripture.
You are kicking against the pricks as the Lord told Paul. Read it again.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this
to Midori
Doest thou forget Twana ??
By RW-(the original)
December 18, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
It’s odd how some people vigorously oppose a woman’s right to choice saying it’s taking a life — but come up on the very opposite side of the fence regarding the death penalty
Striker,
Get back to me the next time an unborn baby is convicted of first degree murder.
By Bosch
December 18, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
I didn’t dodge it, they didn’t like each other from what I’ve read and I don’t worry so much about what Peter or Paul wrote, like I said earlier, I care more about what the Big J had to say.
Andy,
Like I said, I don’t believe God is a cow, at least I hope not. I don’t think God can be defined and think its dangerous when folks start doing that.
Hey ya’ Goldie!
Off to watch the Office. Later.
By Taxpayer
December 18, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this
How can one know what hour the watchman cometh assuming the only reason for having him cometh in the first place is to fix the watch, man.
By Class of '98
December 18, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this
Paul was converted by an experience, not by reading text.
For many Christians such as myself, the Scripture re-inforces my faith, it did not create it.
Anyway, my entire argument was that Bible passages will not convince a non-beleiver.
If a Muslim knocks on your door and starts spouting verses from the Koran are you going to convert because “the Koran says so”?
I gotta run. It’s been fun.
By Midori
December 18, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this
Hi Goldie :)
welcome back; we’ve missed you :)
By Cheryl
December 18, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this
The Corporal wrote: To Class of ‘98
You have been skipping Sunday School.
Paul and the early Christians were saved by Old Testament scripture which pointed forward to the Messiah just as the New Testament points back. No difference.
WHAT? Where in the world…. and I do mean The world did you EVER get that from.
Yeshua himself clearly stated…..”I AM the way, The Truth and the LIFE…… NO Man cometh unto the FATHER but by me…… NO MAN was ever saved by Old Testament scripture, all are saved through propitiation, which was served by Jesus the Christ and the Cross and his burial and ressurection….. There is no other way, there never was…There never will be….. That’s what the BIBLE really says, That is what The Christ, and Paul, and every other disciple ever said….. Any other gospel is false, and that’s also what the Bible says, and is damnable!
That being said, no one can know the father, but by Christ….. and no one can ever know the mind of the Father, even Jesus himself, asked him to change his mind about the Crucifixion, if he so willed, but he didn’t. Do not pretend to know that mind. You cannot do it. And you cannot say how he feels about anything…. He hates sin, and yet he loves us but we are born with a sin nature, and are All sinners. and one day will return his son to reign. that’s all you know for sure if you are a Christian, and that has to be enough. All that is left is for you to follow the Great Commandment, and love all Others as Christ has loved you. No room for hating, or discriminating in that, there just isn’t room or anyplace for it in a True Christian Life!
Find a real shepherd to lead your study, not one who tells you nice stories, and really learn how to be a Christian, but Warning… Christ was very liberal, and very liberating!
By Bud Wiser
December 18, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this
I think that Dr Kevorkian should give the invocation, since the brain dead/entitlement crowd/publicly educated masses elected this tool last month, so it could be considered an assisted suicide.
No need to worry about states allowing assisted suicides anymore since te country committed it Nov 4.
Rev. Warren could be there to preside over the dead.
By AJC/DNC Management
December 18, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this
Cheryl- Go now and sin no more.
~~~~~
Class of 98- Not to take sides, and I know you are ducking a touchy debate, but re read Deuteronomy Chapter 30 Verses 11- 16, whoever does not understand does not want to understand.
By CJ
December 18, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this
As a gay man, I am upset at Obama’s choice. Our nation is filled with a number of fantastic, non-controversial preachers that he could have chosen from. Why this shmuck? Very, very disappointing.
By RW-(the original)
December 18, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this
Good news just doesn’t get enough time in the media.
Rapist surprised to find victim is ardent Second Amendment supporter
By vegan valley girl
December 18, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this
I certainly hope God isn’t a cow. I worked on a farm, and cows are dumb and meant to be eaten - preferably between a buttery bun with cheese, onions, mustard and ketchup!
Yum, yum.
gross. just so grooooowsss. maybe He is?
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
To Cheryl
Your words: NO MAN was ever saved by Old Testament scripture.
Please read Isaiah 53 and what did Philip explain to the Ethiopian ?
… And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia … was sitting in his chariot reading Esaias the prophet…. Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus ……..
Cheryl - I am not trying to be unkind here but ………..
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
To Striker
That one is very easy.
An innocent life vs. a vicious criminal
To Bosch
They did have a falling out early on but it was Peter’s fault. He tried to add something to what constitutes salvation (keepiing the law also) which Paul confronted him as wrong. Peter backed down. It was a good example to show how easily false doctrine can creep in.
By Cheryl
December 18, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this
By AJC/DNC Management wrote:
Cheryl- Go now and sin no more.
LOL, Thanks, I try everyday, but I always fall short, but I keep trying. It’s sad to read all of the posts from day to day, so many professing “Christians” who can spout off scripture, like that means something, but not an ounce of compassion in their words. Nothing but hate, and anger,fear, more hate, name calling and defamatory statements. nothing Christian EVER comes out, except to spout off some over rehearsed scripture, which means NOTHING! No standing up for the weak, nor the poor, nothing but negative attacks, and spite for those who have less good fortune than you, or those who are different. You know HIS people by their fruits, and there’s alot of rotten fruit on this blog.
Christ said, that the day, when he returns, we ALL will stand before him, and many would say “Lord Lord” and he will say “Depart from me, you workers of iniquities, I never knew you!” Everyday, when I read the posts here, I think of that. The way you hate his children, ALL of whom are his, and are called according to HIS Purpose, not yours, (Gay People & Enemies included) and you never have a compassionate thing to say, there is nothing Christlike about your brand of Christianity.
If you want to live by the Law of the Old Testament, then you will die and be judged by the Law, but if you want to live under the New Covenant, which is in Christ Jesus, then you have to leave behind “The LAW” and follow Christ. That means living in love and compassion, because THATS what he said, and because that’s what God did for us, he gave us grace and love, he did not give us what we deserved.
Maybe in 2009, when all we have left is what we really need, Those who profess Christianity, can become more Christlike, and live according to their own divine purpose and let others live theirs in peace. Maybe we should try to remember what this season represents, not a baby in a manger, but a WAY of LIVING in LOVE!
Happy Holiday’s to all, and prepare for the Next chapter of our History!
I can hardly wait!
By Taxpayer
December 18, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
If a bomb falls from the sky and explodes near a pregnant woman and shocks and awes her unborn child to death, was the child murdered and if yes then by whom, the bomb maker, the bomb dropper, the order giver, who?
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this
*To Taxpayer
Ask Bosch. He says it’s just a lump of cells so it’s a moot point.
To All
President-elect Barack Obama’s incoming chief of staff Rahm Emanuel had a deeper involvement in pressing for a U.S. Senate seat appointment than previously reported, the Sun-Times has learned. Emanuel had direct discussions about the seat with Gov. Blagojevich, who is is accused of trying to auction it to the highest bidder. Hummmmm ……..
And ……. Hummmmm …… again:
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The U.N. General Assembly split over the issue of gay rights on Thursday after a European-drafted statement calling for decriminalization of homosexuality prompted an Arab-backed one opposing it.
By Taxpayer
December 18, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this
Well,
I assume you will not be discussing the unborn babies any more since you have deemed this scenario a moot point.
By Ted Striker
December 18, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this
RW —
Sounds like you’re one of the people I was referring to: vigorously opposed to woman’s choice purporting that it’s murder — while vigorously supporting the death penalty as punishment for murder. Okay.
Do you have a daughter? A wife? A girlfriend? Female co-workers? Sisters? Female neighbors? Female friends? Is it possible any of the females you know have ever had an abortion?
By your standards, they need to be convicted of first degree murder and then summarily executed as a punishment for murder.
By Cheryl
December 18, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
Corporal wrote:
Cheryl - I am not trying to be unkind here but ………..
Cheryl Wrote:
But What? Go on……. He preached JESUS, who was sent to fulfill the law, who was the WORD….. In the beginning, there was the word, and the word was in God, and the word was GOD…… NO Man was ever saved by OLD Testament SCRIPTURE, no man is saved by NEW TESTAMENT Scripture, man is saved by Grace, which is in Christ Jesus.
There was no salvation in the Old Testament, there was judgement, but not Salvation, which is undeserved grace, grace comes to us through CHRIST…… There were those who did not die, but were taken up, but there was not Salvation. That came with the NEW Covenant, on Calvary.
BUT WHAT? That is what Christianity IS, the way made to bring MAN BACK TO GOD, to stop the separation at Death……, and not getting that point which is the ONLY point, my friend is detrimental to your health…long term health that is…….
According to the BIBLE that is…… Be unkind if you feel it is necessary, but be right when you are….. It is what I believe, maybe not what you believe, I see, but then again, nobody said you had to either. and that brings us back to the off-topic-topic of Why it’s wrong to use “Gods Laws” to govern our nation, everybody sees it different, nobody alive today, knows who’s interpretation is right. We all just roll our own dice, and find out in the end.
Peace to you Corporal and all.
:-)
By low country boil
December 18, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this
man in black
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this
To Cheryl
You are getting all worked up over semantics and are arguing with yourself.
Go back and read your posts. You said “no man was ever saved by O.T. scripture” and then you say “he preached Jesus” from Isaiah chapter 53. Last time I looked, Isaiah was still in the O.T.
All I said all along was that one could use the O.T. to point to the Messiah! That’s what Stephen did.
By Ted Striker
December 18, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this
Corporal — Your position is noted. You favor murder charges and prosecution to the death for women having undergone abortion.
By RW-(the original)
December 18, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this
Striker,
You read a lot into a comment and I seriously doubt you’re worth addressing, but nothing in my comment to you leads to your conclusion that I am adamantly against choice and certainly doesn’t lead you to your claim that I view abortion under any circumstance is murder.
Furthermore, nothing I wrote would indicate to a normal thinking person that I was vigorously supporting the death penalty.
Corporal cut to the chase at 9:48, but I gain more enjoyment by baiting idiots like you to respond the way you did at 10:06.
If you’re up to the task please show where my words support your conclusions.
By Algonquin J. Calhoun
December 18, 2008 10:58 PM | Link to this
This sort of friendship across political points of view is not new. Jerry Falwell and Ted Kennedy were good friends. Ted was the guest speaker at a couple of graduations at Liberty University. I don’t see the reason for any divisiveness because of Obama’s choice. It’s not the choice I would have made but I’m not being inaugurated. He is! Hell, it could have been worse. Rev. Wright could be doing the invocating. Mr. Bookman, it appears Sunday School has broken out here!
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this
To Striker
Let’s walk you through this:
1) This was your original statement to me:
It’s odd how some people vigorously oppose a woman’s right to choice saying it’s taking a life — but come up on the very opposite side of the fence regarding the death penalty.
2) I replied that “it’s easy. Innocent life vs. vicious criminal” and then you replied:
3) Corporal — Your position is noted. You favor murder charges and prosecution to the death for women having undergone abortion.
Now, what is your point or where is your logic in these ramblings? Where do you find that I stated we should prosecute mothers for their abotions ?
Taxpayer
I was through for the night because no one would debate (just name calling) but then the above irrational rant came down the pike.
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 11:15 PM | Link to this
To Algonquin J. Calhoun
And yes Sunday School has broken out here because the thread is religious in nature ……. you know, invocations !
Or are we supposed to talk about invocations without invoking God?
P.S. Did you know the Kingfish and Lightnin’ ?
By The Corporal
December 18, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this
Serious off topic Subjet:
I was watching the news tonight and would really would like some rational opinions on this.
Obviously, the Inauguration will be of an historic proportion. I am truly worried that the government will not limit the number of people coming into D.C. If the 3-4 million figure is even close to correct we could be looking at a serious problem if there is any kind of even minor incident or attack.
Just imagine a million people on the mall (due to the crowd size they have already announced no screening there) and someone starts cranking off rounds. There could be hundreds of people killed from the panic stampede alone (especially children).
I’m just saying, politics aside that someone needs to make a decision the same as a fire marshall would in a crowded room.
No more.
By Logic school
December 18, 2008 11:25 PM | Link to this
Neither of us can legally “marry” another man.
That’s equal rights, if you ask me.
This is equivalent to suggesting that religious freedom = Everyone has the right to be a Christian, just like me. It’s logically inconsistent when you consider that the ACTUAL issue is not “the right to marry a member of the opposite sex” but “the right to marry the person with whom I want to spend my life”.
This is a perfect case…well, perhaps a bit slanted…of “history being written by the victors”.
When we boil the question down to its basics, it comes down to our right to form a union with someone we want to spend the rest of our lives with, and to form legal bonds with. The gender of the person is a structural consideration rather than the primary consideration. If gender were the primary consideration, we would simply marry the first member of the opposite gender that happened along. However, we don’t, we reserve marriage - in theory - for people with whom we have formed a powerful emotional bond.
Of COURSE, for most people, the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with and share legal bonds with ALSO means someone of the opposite sex.
However, that is NOT the primary concern. When marriage is contemplated by the average person, they don’t think…”Good, I can marry someone of the opposite sex”. No, they think “Good, I can marry the *person I love”.
By RTW
December 18, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this
Hey Dems! It’s your turn to rationalize unpopular choices. Enjoy the next 4 years! Everybody wants something new. That flies in the face of history. Real change takes time. Generations, really. With our limited time on this earth, idealism leads to realism. Study history. The human experience rarely changes. We’re born, we grow, we experience, we’re influenced…and hopefully we form our OWN opinions based on that history. Technology changes. Politics change. Environments change. But living your own life, although affected by your own experiences and influences, does not. We all go through awareness, discovery, understanding, disappointment, happiness and acceptance (or not). The root meaning in life lies in how we live it. And how we leave it. The greatest gift is choice. We choose who we want to be. Most people choose badly.
By RTW
December 18, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this
By Logic school: “When marriage is contemplated by the average person, they don’t think…”Good, I can marry someone of the opposite sex”. No, they think “Good, I can marry the *person I love”.
By that logic, we would be all incestual.
By Rob
December 18, 2008 11:57 PM | Link to this
Wow. I’m starting to get really p** toward gays and lesbians. Why don’t they go f* off together in the closet - we don’t want to know about their sick, perverted lifestyles. The President of the US has MUCH more important things to consider.
By Algonquin J. Calhoun
December 19, 2008 12:12 AM | Link to this
Corporal, get htose sideburns trimmed and those thumbs along the seams of those pants when you’re at attention. You are at attention, aren’t you?
Can’t you do some secular invocating without bringing a deity into this? Pastor Warren is going to do some invoking a lot of people are going to take umbrage at. it’s alright with me. I’m not going to pay any attention to anything he says. No disrespect to him. My reaction would be the same whomever got up there and did the pontificational duties. Truthfully, I’m not going to watch one second of any of the pomp and circumstance twiddling and twaddling. What matters to me is getting the present squatter out of the White House and on his way to the village that’s been missing their idiot for the past eight years.
Indeed, I did know Lightnin’ and the Kingfish. Two of my favorite people.
By The Corporal
December 19, 2008 12:35 AM | Link to this
* Algonquin J. Calhoun*
Aye, aye sir, but you can’t invocate without a deity ……….. :o)
in⋅vo⋅ca⋅tion – noun 1. the act of invoking or calling upon a deity, spirit, etc., for aid, protection, inspiration, or the like; supplication.
By Ted Striker
December 19, 2008 12:35 AM | Link to this
RW –
You responded to my comment, even duplicating it for reference. You called me by name. You quoted my words. I raised a topic; you took it up. It’s reasonable to deduce you felt qualified to speak to that topic, yes?
Now you’re saying that you’ve been misunderstood. You’re claiming someone put words in your mouth. Yes, yes, definitely. Someone certainly did.
That someone was you.
You’re the one who dove into the gentle waters of reasonable discourse and splashed around. You’re the one who framed your response using the coordinates of my map. You’re the one who internalized my topic for your own expository views. I comprende, mi amigo.
I also get that your discomfort has zilch, nado, nothing to do with me. Maybe It’s it’s your private anxiety in grasping at beliefs suddenly conflicted. Perhaps you’re embarrassed to feel shown up in a public forum (not my intention). Or that you’re unexpectedly less convinced of some ‘absolute truth’ that you once thought was indisputable.
I can’t answer your own private questions and wouldn’t dream of it. Truth? I wouldn’t try to persuade or dissuade you one way or the other on this topic. You seem by some accounts to be a thinking man. So, think! You can however, be certain of one thing. I won’t resort to the insults and ad hominem attacks that seem so comfortable to you. In closing, RW — my best holiday wishes to you this season. Put your brain to good use.
TS
By The Corporal
December 19, 2008 12:38 AM | Link to this
To Ted Striker
Are you you on the 13th floor at Grady?
By Frederick Douglass
December 19, 2008 12:57 AM | Link to this
All I know is that the collective IQ of Dallas Texas is about to take a nose dive come Jan. 20th 2009.
By Ted Striker
December 19, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this
Corporal –
Sorry for delay responding…I just saw your post.
You seem to make genuine efforts to respond clearly and succinctly to folks, whether you agree or disagree with their views. That is respected and appreciated.
Here’s the rub. You infer circumstance A — abortion — is the taking of innocent lives. You infer circumstance B — death penalty — is suitable punishment for someone who takes innocent lives. (According to other posts of yours, the death penalty is also appropriate for thieves, like Bernie Madoff, yes?).
In your words, “It’s easy. Innocent life vs. vicious criminal.” By your definitions, abortion is the taking of an innocent life – a morally reprehensible act and a violation God’s will. You’ve previously expressed a belief abortion should be illegal. Are you backing up from that now? Are you saying that abortion, as unpleasant and undesirable as it is, should remain legal, i.e. free from prosecution? Are you now saying “hey, maybe it ISN’T murder after all”? That certainly sounds like what you might be saying.
Is it that you’ve seen more of the thorny slope of reality and accordingly you’re a bit less convinced and hard core about abortion being murder?
By Chad Harris
December 19, 2008 1:52 AM | Link to this
Corporal—
You’re right. There won’t be much security for people crowded into DC for the inauguration. There is never much security. The Bush administration has been incompetent at it. You watched the 3000 people burn to death or jump to death and the several hundred fire personnel die when the Bush administration was warned repeatedly about a specific attack of planes into buildings. Read Jim Bamford’s 2nd book. After W panicked and read The Little Goat he flew around the country afraid to return to Washington.
I spoke directly to Richard Clarke a few months ago. He said point blank when I asked him that he warned Condi several different ways and several different venues that he had intelligence reports of am imminent attack on US buildings with planes by Bin Ladin. They were that specific. And Condi completely ignored him and wouldn’t lift a finger to get intercepted wire taps (the ones that don’t tap you and me) translated. She got them translated within 48 hours of the burning in Tribeca.
It’s no different now. Welcome to the US.
The inauguration is a prime terrorist target given shrub’s incompetence at security and everything else.
I’d call it the Katrina 8 years because that’s what it has been.
Chertoff has done an imbecilic job of supplying security to the American people.
By AJC/DNC Management
December 19, 2008 5:45 AM | Link to this
By Cheryl December 18, 2008 9:49 PM Christ said, that the day, when he returns, we ALL will stand before him, and many would say “Lord Lord” and he will say “Depart from me, you workers of iniquities, I never knew you!” Everyday, when I read the posts here, I think of that. The way you hate his children, ALL of whom are his, and are called according to HIS Purpose, not yours, (Gay People & Enemies included) and you never have a compassionate thing to say, there is nothing Christlike about your brand of Christianity.
This is rather convenient, if you don’t agree with what someone else says then it must be hate speech and they are going to hell because of it, hahaha.
Ever heard of the Pharisees, Cheryl?
By AJC/DNC Management
December 19, 2008 5:54 AM | Link to this
CHICAGO — President-elect Barack Obama attempted today to clear himself and his staff of any taint connected with charges the Illinois governor put Obama’s Senate seat up for sale, saying he was “absolutely certain” there was no involvement with the alleged dealmaking.
Uh-huh:
Emanuel talked directly to gov: source DEEPER ROLE? | Pushed Jarrett for Senate seat -SunTimes
By spankmonkey
December 19, 2008 6:27 AM | Link to this
I find that those who proclaim thier thier christianity the loudest, are usually not very christian at all. Guilty dogs bark the loudest, and with a couple ya’ll here we need ear plugs…
By Mrs. Godzilla
December 19, 2008 7:09 AM | Link to this
I don’t have a problem with Rick Warren. He get’s the small slot at the start, the biggie, the benediction goes to the Reverend D. Joseph Lowery.
Anyway, we did without either for the 144 years between Washington and FDR, which as a strong believer in the separation of church and state, would be my choice.
By Constructive Feedback
December 19, 2008 7:13 AM | Link to this
Jay Bookman - your analysis is preposterous.
As expected you use this opportunity to shift the debate from “Gay Marriage” and its merits over to the Republican Party and how Obama might make your dreams come true by dismantling it with such a move.
Mr. Bookman - why don’t you work to rebut Rev Warren’s argument that every religious culture has defined marriage as a relationship between man and woman? In America we slipped up and adopted “Judeo-Christian principles, a set of values that have endured for thousands of years.
You and others seem to be making it up as you go along.
By Mrs. Godzilla
December 19, 2008 7:36 AM | Link to this
Rev. Warren’s argument is false.
Although state-recognized same-sex marriage is a relatively new phenomenon in Western society, there is a long history of same-sex unions around the world. Various types of same-sex unions have existed, ranging from informal, unsanctioned relationships to highly ritualized unions. The first country to allow same sex marriage was the Netherlands.
By John
December 19, 2008 7:42 AM | Link to this
The gay community had better get on-board with the President, they have no where else to go. They already have a losing streak and they need new leadership to help define and focus on the real issues. As long as they continue to let the “flamers” define them they will lose the public opinion battle.
By Fred
December 19, 2008 7:49 AM | Link to this
I agree that both parties are a bunch of interest groups cobbled together to serve their individual ends. The big difference is that on the left, if you don’t agree, they try to silence your dissenting voice, drive you from the public life, have you removed from your job or put you out of business. The anti prop 8 crowd’s attack of the El Coyote restaurant’s manager over a personal $100 donation is a stellar example of left wing “tolerance”. Unfortunately, we as a nation have forgotten who we are and what we stand for. That slide started decades ago.
By SoBashMe
December 19, 2008 7:50 AM | Link to this
GAYS grow the F&^k up!
I’m a Democrat, I’m Black, I don’t have a problem if someone wants to live their life being with someone of the same sex. I don’t condone it, but hey if that’s what you want to do…
Have your legal civil unions if you want, stay the hell out of marriage. Homosexuality is not “normal” so don’t try to make it out to be. This isn’t about rights, it’s about your agenda. …And stop trying to hijack the Civil Rights movement! Just because someone doesn’t agree with your lifestyle doesn’t mean they HATE you, or are afraid of you (as your oft misapplication of the term “homophobia” so demonstrates). I’m scared of snakes, but not you.
By DB, Gwinnettian
December 19, 2008 7:51 AM | Link to this
Way upthread we heard:
“Jeremiah Wright is the racist bigot. Not Warren.”
Cite, please. And no guilt-by-association crap, no claiming “Well, the church sold this book that I heard from Aunt Gladys has stuff in it that sounds not-all-that-nice…”
Something actually uttered, on the record, from Jeremiah Wright, that is racially bigoted against people who do not look like him.
I hear this “racist church” business a lot from conservatives (including, hilariously, Pat Buchanan). But never with any evidence.
Presumably Uncle Fun’s not online, but the offer’s open to anyone.
By DB, Gwinnettian
December 19, 2008 7:58 AM | Link to this
“Rev. Warren’s argument is false.”
Well, Rick Warren is a fat, warmongering liar. Figured I’d go on the record with that.
The fat part, he could do something about although it can be tough for some. Still, if he’s all about personal responsibility you’d think this guy, with his fabulous wealth and power, could hire personal trainers and nutritional experts to keep him on the straight and narrow and set an example for folks.
The warmongering liar business is a personal choice he’s made, and there’s no earthly reason any sane person should pay him any heed, save as a convenient rhetorical punching bag.
That said, I’m relatively certain that, per usual, Obama’s political calculus will prove correct. Two minutes hate = money in the bank when it comes time to push for extremely expensive, game-changing environmental/energy legislation.
It’s politics; it ain’t beanbag.
By DB, Gwinnettian
December 19, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this
“Have your legal civil unions if you want, stay the hell out of marriage.”
SoBashMe (good nym! me likee! Wish I’d grabbed it!), fact is, marriage IS a legal civil union. I’m sorry if the notion of those guys and gals who do icky things getting married is offensive to you, but then I don’t much care to think of any number of icky hetero couples (Bob + Liddy Dole + boner pills come to mind.)
Were you to strip the word “marriage” out of the legal code in order to make legal civil unions their equivalent, it’d be a nightmare. That’s why there’s a push to legalize gay marriage.
Seriously, are you under the impression (fed by such well-known liars as Rick Warren) that churches would be forced to perform such ceremonies, and that churches would be targeted for hate crime prosecution if they continued to inveigh against gay marriage?
If that were a realistic prospect, consider this: the Roman Catholic Church has, far as I know, never been hauled into court for inveighing against divorce.
By Shawny
December 19, 2008 8:12 AM | Link to this
Bookman, in your second paragraph, you said, “If you don’t think gay Americans should be able to marry, say so.”
Well, duh, Obama did say so. When asked the direct question during one of the last 2 debates, he said that he supports the rights of gay couples (union), but not gay marriage. Were you listening, or were you all ga ga with your rose colored ears?
So, he picks a Christian to do an invocation. MOST Christians believe marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman. Warren does, and also is tolerant of gay rights, which is exactly as Obama has positioned himself.
pay attention. Sounds like the gay activitists weren’t paying attention either. But then again, if you were an Obama supporter, you weren’t really dissecting what he was saying anyway, just awash in lust over your candidate.
By Jeff
December 19, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this
If the selection of Jerry Fallwell wannabee Rick Warren is a “dialogue,” gay men and lesbians want to know where our place is at the inaugural table.
By Mara
December 19, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this
Rick Warren has compared being gay to pedophilia and incest. He supports a “pray-away-the-gay” conversion philisophy, refuses to meet/talk/work with Christian groups like “Soulforce” simply because they welcome gays. He actively worked to negate the fait accompli legal marriages of gay couples in California. In that light he is no different from the preachers who used the Word of God to rail against mixed-race marriages.
That being said, if…IF…Obama follows through with his promises to the gay community (repealing DOMA, repealing DADT, implementing national civil union legislation etc) I’ll buy into his “were all in this together” inclusive rhetoric and give grave consideration to the idea that even the most nauseating bigot has some worth.
If he fails to follow through, we’ll know him for the pandering, back-stabbing politician he really is.
By Wyld Byll
December 19, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this
Look, the whole homosexual marriage thing is not about whether, as they call themselves, a couple of queers ought to be able to marry each other. And its not about whether queers, as they call themselves, in committed relationships should have rights equivilent to those of spouses, all most all Americans are ok with that. The homosexual marriage push by activists, pardon the pun, is a back door way to make homosexuality be considered as a “normative” behaviour. And, most of American just don’t buy homosexuality as a normative behavior, most Americans believe that, if not a sin against nature, its unnatural behaviour.
By gadem
December 19, 2008 8:58 AM | Link to this
I’m a democrat, and although I don’t agree with how Warren delivers his message, I do agree with his marriage. In my humble opinion, homosexuality is a mental disease in some way, shape or form. Prayer really does change things. If prayer can cure sickness, why can’t it cure homosexuality?
By bj
December 19, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
I wish Barry had the stones to put Rev Wright up, now that would have been funny. “Gay Bashers” is a little a bit of an overstatement don’t ya think?
Hey Jay, is it this weekend of next weekend that ya’ll will quietly announce that Rahm is stepping down. Don’t admins usually wait until they are actually sworn in before the scandals start? Some kind of new speed record I guess.
Bj
By The Corporal
December 19, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
To Striker
I hear you and I won’t duck a tough question.
If someone intentionally kills a “fetus” today in the womb (i.e., a mugger kicks the woman in the stomach) is he charged with feticide? Yep.
Why? Just because the mother wanted the baby vs. didn’t want it? What if she was on the way to an abortion clinic when it happened? Would that be a defense to murder?
If I were king, the abortion doctors (who violate their oath everyday) or anyone else who killed an innocent life would be charged. Yes. For sure.
This must be stopped. We don’t tolerate one person in slavery in this country anymore and we shouldn’t tolerate one abortion. A life is a life.
Have I answered your question?
By Paul
December 19, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
G’morning, Mrs. Godzilla
Evening last Suixante and I briefly discussed this. I repeated how I think people get hung up on word “marriage” rather than focusing on concept. He responded many see use of any noun other that ‘marriage’ as discrimination. So there’s the sticking point between the two sides - at least those with the money to keep the fight going.
As I understand it, people can get married by civil or religious authorities and have it recognized as legal by the state. I don’t know of any other act a minister can perform and have it recognized by the state as legally binding. They can’t give driver’s tests, certify a building is up to code or issue voting licenses, for example. Just marry folks.
I see the sensitivity some have to wanting to use the same noun as everyone else, but it strikes me if the issue were taken out of the religious arena tempers would settle down. The religious opponents would not have an objection (okay, they’ll probably come up with something, just not this word thing). Let gays have a civil union, called that, with all the rights, responsibilities and obligations as marriage. The state will not recognize the legality of ceremonies performed by ministers unless they apply to the state for that authority. This will prevent lawsuits by gay activists against certain churches who refuse to perform gay unions (some aren’t happy unless there’s a cause to litigate). Let the churches decide what they will or won’t do. Unions performed by civil authorities will follow the same procedures as marriages for heterosexual couples.
Leastwise, that’s how I see it.
DB 7:58
[[Rick Warren is… fat]]
And that relates, how, to his ideas, character or beliefs?
By Call it Like it is
December 19, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this
Uncle Fun,
Amen Brother, keep’em coming.
Robin Hood even knows whats right and whats wrong!
Enough Said!
By Bosch
December 19, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Morning Paul and all - I’ve made a rhyme.
Anywho, I think gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry just like the rest of us, and I feel that to deny them that is discriminatory.
However, I feel that marriage is over-rated. I think we as a society really need to work on what it means to be married. Really.
I grow tired of people who say that being homosexual is a sin, and totally ignore the horrible things that some hetero people do.
In the state of Georgia, you can be “married” simply by presenting yourself as a married couple - buy a house together, get a joint checking account, say, “hey this is my husband/wife.”
When I’ve gone to the hospital with the other Bosch, or vice versa, the doctors and nurses don’t ask to see our marriage license to make sure we can speak for one another. I don’t have to carry it around in my pocket.
I think it is discriminatory for homosexuals to not be afforded the same thing as heterosexuals, but the three gay couples I know who are married, they are married - in their hearts, and also on paper if the law is still valid in California, and just because some ones says they aren’t married because THEY don’t believe in it would have absolutely no bearing on how they feel.
I read an article a while back that said that in Europe the instances of unwed mothers is skyrocketing - but that’s due to the fact that many people in these countries where they collected this data simply aren’t getting married, they don’t see the need for a ceremony.
Anywho, my two cents today.
By Paul
December 19, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
Hey Bosch
More like, your four cents?
:-)
I think this issue has hit a stone wall - with both sides. So I said to get over the word and say heterosexuals in a church or civil get married and homosexuals in a civil or possibly church get civil union.
One gets a chocolate milkshake. One gets a milkshake with chocolate. One person’s a secretary, another is an administrative assistant. One person has an SUV. Another has a crossover. One person has a pet. Another has a nonhuman household member. One person believes in God. Another person believes in an Eternal Force.
If we can’t even compromise on nouns, do we really think ‘we’ can bring the Palestinians, Arabs, Persians and Israelis to come to a lasting peace agreement, hmmm?
By RealityKing
December 19, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
Rick Warren is expressing what Obama himself believes, is there any doubt that?? This is just Obama’s new way of text messaging.
Change you can believe in…
By rkgt
December 19, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
UNCLE FUN - only black churches can get involved politically. it is in the bible ans constitution.
By Shawny
December 19, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
Gads, what an idiot! Bookman says, “In many ways, the Republican Party of the last 20 years has been a collection of unrelated interest groups joined in an unholy alliance of necessity. “
Well, lets see…lib/dems are WIDELY supported by gays, welfare class, minorities, elderly, illegals, secular/ atheists, baby killers (yet defendants of real killers). .. what do these groups have in common?
By kitty
December 19, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
Warren was a good compromise in my opinion. I define a good compromise where both sides of the issue are equally upset with the outcome. THAT is a good compromise. I think we all know you can’t please everyone. The right is equally upset with Warren for working with Obama on some issues and the left is upset with Obama for working with Warren on some issues. See, perfect compromise. :)
By DB, Gwinnettian
December 19, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
“And that relates, how, to his ideas, character or beliefs?”
Paul, fair question. I thought I made it pretty clear that this was the most forgivable of his various failings and, by inference, that his being fat was merely something I enjoyed gratuitously adding to the pile-on. Obviously the dishonesty and the decidedly un-Christian desire to wage war and even assassinate foreign leaders beats an admittedly not-all-that-horrible weight problem.
Although having said that, I think there is something to my stated notion that a guy who expects others to have a “purpose driven life” ought to be able to keep his own weight under control. I suspect if I were to investigate, Rick’s probably covered this topic somewhere. I welcome anyone familiar with his work to show me the way if he has.
By RW-(the original)
December 19, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
I won’t resort to the insults and ad hominem attacks
That’s downright laughable, Striker. Fortunately for you the evidence gets flushed down the memory hole around here.
By DB, Gwinnettian
December 19, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
RW, I see you are back, and no, I didn’t blow off your comment yesterday about my apparent transgression of using a “b’sterdized version of another conservative poster” (paraphrasing).
In fact I wanted to get this out in the open, trivial though it may seem.
All I can say about that this choice wasn’t intended to be irritating to you, or even a swipe at RB from Gwinnett who has not, far as I know, ever complained to me about using a nym that somewhat resembles his own. Yes, I was distinguishing myself from another guy from Gwinnett who posts here, but I didn’t think it crossed the line into nym-mockery or nym-stealing.
Truth is, RB’s really not on my radar much—he’s kind of an infrequent poster, and I was mostly looking for a handle that more accurately reflected who I was and where I was from.
But if RB thinks I’m out of line I’ll drop it and adopt something else. I don’t see every comments thread, so if you spot such a complaint let me know; if I see him around I’ll ask him directly if he’s bothered. Fair enough?
By Snafu
December 19, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
The Corporal wrote “This must be stopped. We don’t tolerate one person in slavery in this country anymore and we shouldn’t tolerate one abortion’
What planet are you on? There is still slavery in this country its just modernized, you have to work for things that are free. You have to pay taxes to illegal entities, your government ensures you are keep in line by fear, imprisonment, etc. You say we should not tolerate abortion but yet you tolerate wars…humm.double standards! According to your statement killing is killing right?
Someone brought up Rev Wright and said he was a racist. In what manner. I know you just wanted to show your true colors but really. Religion has no place in Government and the religious n*tjobs need to crawl under the rocks. Fairies are mythical.
By Uncle Fun
December 19, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
DB, Gwinnettian, Ever heard of “black theology?” Yeah, neither have I. It’s no where to be found in any Bible. It’s made up garbage just like Kwanza. Jerimiah Wrights church preaches it.
This is what it says: Liberation theology as it has expressed itself in the African-American community seeks to find a way to make the gospel relevant to black people who must struggle daily under the burden of white oppression. The question that confronts these black theologians is not one that is easily answered. “What if anything does the Christian gospel have to say to powerless black men,” to use James Cone’s words, whose existence is “threatened on a daily basis by the insidious tentacles of white power?” If the gospel has nothing to say to people as they confront the daily realities of life, it is a lifeless message. If Christianity is not real for blacks, then they will reject it.
Now, if you can tell me how that is not racist then I’d love to hear it. They, meaning black theologians, put skin color above Jesus, God and everything else.
HELLO RACISM.
Now, please tell me how Rick Warren is a racist or bigot? If you say its his stance against homosexuality then by all means Obama, Hillary, Joe Biden and more than have the democrat party are bigots. Thanks and have a nice Christmas.
By Paul
December 19, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
DB 10:11
Thanks. I give Pres-elect Obama credit for keeping his word during the campaign - to be inclusive - not, as I think some thought, meaning “convert them all to our side or shut them out.” Seems he’s going for some common ground, or at least some not-too-minefield infested ground, works with people when he can, agrees to disagree at other times.
The other way strikes me more as a repeat of Pres Bush’s first term.
By Call it Like it is
December 19, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
Yea Paul,
We could not have anything that mirrors the Current President.
Give me a break. Can’t wait to see what the Savior, Socialist, Robin Hood, Barry Obama does in his short 4 year term.
He is already surrounded by Thugs, Hate America, corrupt people as it is.
Uncle Fun,
Chime on in.
By Vick
December 19, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
So all of Obama’s gay supporters get thrown under the bus… great. I don’t see him asking any anti-semites or racists to share the stage with him on his big day… I guess hating gay people is still in vogue in America.
By DB, Gwinnettian
December 19, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
Sorry, Uncle. Nothing from Wright. That was the challenge. Nice try, but you lose.
And I don’t have to tell you how “Rick Warren is a racist or bigot” since I did not call him either of those things.
By SaveOurRepublic
December 19, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
Cheryl @ 20:44 (12/18) - You’re absolutely right regarding Warren’s “seeker driven”/social gospel/emerging church platform. In my estimation, he’s a false prophet with his apostate “Purpose Driven” pseudo theology.
From a political standpoint, Warren (like “Bacrock Obuma” & fellow traver “Juan McAmnasty”) is a hardcore Globalist pawn. He’s a member of the CFR who’s in league with the UN, Davos WEF, (globalist minded) TED & African Union. He’s also the leader of the Globalist P.E.A.C.E intuitive Warren has become a senior agent of the Globalist Elite’s “religious” wing.
http://livingjourney.wordpress.com/2006/11/06/emerging-church-rick-warren-and-the-new-world-order/
By Ted Striker
December 19, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this
Corporal, sir. —
You didn’t duck and you did answer. We may not agree that abortion should be a criminal act but we agree on other things. And in the scheme of things a diversity of opinion is a strength and hallmark of our nation. Again, thanks for answering.
RW — I’m sorry I can’t play at insults and innuendo with you today, or any other day. I have bigger fish to fry.
By The Corporal
December 19, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
To Ted Stiker
Always good to disagree without being disagreeable.
However, you really didn’t even ask me the toughest question you could have. I always have to remind those I am debating of this.
Want to know what that is?
By Ted Striker
December 19, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Corporal,
I was never debating you. Your beliefs are the result of your intellect, experience, conscience, convictions, and faith. Nothing anyone says to you here should — or will — outweigh the sum of those factors, in and of itself.
I’m thankful for that, and it’s one of the reasons I’d support your right to disagree with me as often as you like — just like I’d do for anyone else in this country. Merry Christmas, Corporal. And let there be peace on earth.
By dw
December 19, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
To Bosch, Midori, Cheryl,…
Based on your interpretions, you like anarchy, and laws are unnecessary, as everyone can kinda figure out what is right for them. Cool, let’s get rid of all the laws in the U.S., especially if they could remotely have any moral basis. You know that stealing thing that the Bible says don’t do it, well screw that cause somebody will not think that is what God meant, atleast not for them. So stealing is now okay according to your logic. No more lawyers needed. Disband Congress, as no more laws needed. No more police, as everyone gets to define what is right anyhow, so there is no lawbreaking.
Don’t you worry your little liberal heads a bit though, because it is only a matter a time before the gays/lesbians can have the title of “married”. But it won’t be marriage in reality, just in name. Symantics at best. Then everyone can stop hearing the whining.
Maybe our time would be better spent by arguing that “marriage” should be called “partnership”, then heterosexuals will be on the outside. I want my rights to dissolve the word marriage and just have partnership. Please get on that right away.
The only thing I remotely think you are close on, is telling a non-Christian about Christian ideas can like talking “greek” to someone. But if you don’t like it, say “thank you, but I disagree”, instead of saying “Christians,you can’t state your thoughts”.
By CLR Williams
December 19, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
Inland Valley Daily Bulletin (Ontario, CA) Thursday, December 18, 2008 Page A7, Opinion Guest Columnist: Renford Reese, Ph.D.
Obama’s Win Reflects Nation’s Good, Bad Barack Obama’s historic victory is among the nation’s highest and lowest points. It is a high point for obvious reasons. Millions of people transcended race and coalesced to elect the nation’s first black president. It is a low point because there are people adamantly resistant to having a black Commander-in-Chief. His victory has spawned a fervent patriotism, which reflects the good, the bad, and the ugly in America.
The Good: According to a recent CNN poll, seventy-nine percent approve of Obama’s performance so far during transition, with 18 percent disapproving. The poll indicates that 79 percent of the public thinks Obama will do a good job as president. The transition seems to be remarkably smooth and respectful. President Bush and his wife Laura were wonderfully receptive on the Obamas first visit to the White House. President Bush has made quite a few gracious comments about the significance of Obama’s victory. This type of grace and respect reflects all that is good about America.
The Bad: At the same time Obama’s multiethnic coalition was energetically celebrating his victory, hate crimes were occurring across the nation. After the election, there were the schoolchildren in Idaho chanting “Assassinate Obama,” racial epithets sprayed on cars and homes, cross burnings, and palpable anger from coast to coast. After my November 9 commentary in this newspaper I received a typewriter-typed letter, which was a thinly masked threat to the life of the president-elect. The letter stated that “You are happy now but you will not be for long because he will not serve his full term. Then we will be happy. Remember That!” I immediately contacted the FBI who put me in contact with the secret service and I delivered the letter to them. The tragedy of the election will be reflected in the dramatic increase in activities for the secret service.
The Ugly: While the world has become familiar with the ubiquitous Ugly American abroad progressives see the same characteristics in people at home: arrogant, hyper-patriotic, nationalistic, xenophobic, racially biased, always angry at and out to get the “other.” There are those among us who continue to peddle hate. Camouflaged in a patriotic bravado, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity continue to spew a unique hatred for our president-elect to their unwitting followers. This calculated divisiveness could not be more unpatriotic. The hate-tinged daily commentaries encourage disunity and undermine the esprit de corps of the American ideal.
On Hannity’s December 8 radio show he stated that, “Our country has survived bad presidents before and will survive this one (Obama).” He went on to say, “I don’t know what this guy is going to do. I don’t know if he knows.” How can we hate what we don’t know unless we are hateful?
Hannity’s ad for his radio show includes excerpts of Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s incendiary comments about America. Hannity, however, seems to be totally oblivious to his commonality with Wright. Wright preached the passionate truth as he saw it about America, which he probably thought was his patriotic duty. Hannity preaches his passionate truth about America because he thinks it is his patriotic duty. The hatefulness of each brand of their truths is destructive.
Of course, I do not know if the person that wrote the letter to me threatening Obama listens to Hannity. Irrespective of whether they do or not, Hannity must know that his unremitting venom directed towards the president-elect can bring Obama harm. Especially during economic downturns, people look to rhetorical leaders to find a scapegoat.
There will be a point in the Obama administration when his actions will justify criticism—maybe even harsh criticism. It is our patriotic duty to make him accountable for his actions. But today, he has not made one policy, vetoed one bill, implemented one executive order, yet, hate by some is consistently being leveled towards him—this is unpatriotic.
As Americans, we must embrace the good, educate the bad, and rebel against the ugly in our society. The recent poll stating that 79 percent of Americans think that Obama will do a good job as President means that we are on the right track.
Renford Reese, Ph.D., is a professor in the political science department and director of the Colorful Flags program at Cal Poly Pomona. He is the author of American Bravado (2008), Prison Race (2006), and the widely discussed American Paradox: Young Black Men (2004). See his work at: RenfordReese
By The Corporal
December 19, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
To Ted Striker
Merry Christmas (I mean - Merry Cultural Awareness Season) to you too.
By Uncle Fun
December 19, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this
DB, Gwinnettian, Either your brain is the IQ of a carrot or you are just flat out stupid. Black theology is taught at Obamas church. Can you not read? Now, how is Rick Warren a racist and a bigot? You do have to tell me because I’ve given you detail in to what the Revvvvvvvvvv Wright preaches. SKIN COLOR ABOVE ALL ELSE! That IS racism. Promoting your own race over another is RACISM!
By Call It Like It Is
December 20, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this
Oh yea.
Hannity is right on target with his facts about Wright, Barry Obama, Ayers, and the like. So get over it! If any one is racist, it’s Wright, and our own Cynthina Tucker. Yes, that’s right. How come we can never respond to her liberal spewing? Funny how the main stream media will lable Rick Warren while Wright & Flagger and his associations with the RACIST Farrakkahan gets the FREE Pass!
Get over it!
Enough Said!
By Thad Charris
December 20, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
No, Call, not ‘nuff said. Do you know how many Hannities were editors in the south during slavery? Can you imagine the inhumane suffering they inflicted upon the slaves as they spun justification for the peculiar institution? That our country is exposed to Rushannity at all is a disgrace. That some Americans support his spin is a travesty. That opinions like yours see the light of day makes this blog a pigpen.
‘muff said.
By Call It Like It Is
December 20, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this
Calls um as I sees um.
Truth Hurts!
Once again!
Enough Said!