Home > Jay Bookman > Archives > 2008 > December > 01 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USThe blowback on torture
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Writing in The Washington Post, the leader of the U.S. interrogation team that helped track down and kill terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi talks about the use of torture and abuse by other American officials in Iraq, and its deadly consequences for U.S. soldiers:
“I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq.
It’s no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me — unless you don’t count American soldiers as Americans.”
Experts in counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency stress the importance of what they call “the say-do gap,” the gap between what we say and what we actually do. The larger that gap, the easier it is to recruit terrorists against us. The testimony of the anonymous interrogator in his Post piece suggests that the use of torture created a massive “say-do gap” that probably contributed to the deaths of thousands of American soldiers.
In his just-concluded remarks introducing his national security team, President-elect Obama tried to address that issue directly:
“We will show the world once more that America is relentless in defense of our people, steady in advancing our interests, and committed to the ideals that shine as a beacon to the world: democracy and justice; opportunity and unyielding hope - because American values are America’s greatest export to the world.”
He has the “say” part down. Come Jan. 20, we and the rest of the world can begin to judge the “do” part as well.
Comments
By AJC/DNC Management
December 1, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
“I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq.
Considering that most of these terrorists that “flocked” to Iraq have been slaughtered like dogs, perhaps we should make torture US policy, no?
By scrappy
December 1, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
sluaghtered like dogs
Perhaps, likely not. But the point was that they killed our guys. I am sure the families of the fallen troops would not agree with your argument.
By ByteMe
December 1, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
Yes, Mgmt, it worked really well for Russia when they invaded and tried to hold Afghanistan using terror and torture policies….
Our current Homeland Security Secretary actually thinks that the model for Homeland Security should be 24’s Jack Bauer.
A TV fantasy show.
Every serious interrogator will tell you: torture does not work. You can’t ever be sure the information is true when the person is giving you the information under duress. More often than not, the person will lie just to get the torture to end.
Of course, “serious” hasn’t been a term anyone knowledgeable would use for the Bush Administration’s “War on Terror”.
Only the morally screwed up would think that terrorism OR torture is appropriate human behavior.
By ByteMe
December 1, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
Just to add: I think the model for the Homeland Security’s TSA workers should be Charlie’s Angels, but that’s likely just a personal preference.
By AF
December 1, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
There is some talk of there being a real investigation into how the torture policy got developed and disseminated in the Bush administration. I hope it gets done. Top level people, government and military, who participated in the change in policy toward torture need to be identified and pilloried in the press.
Another devastating Bush legacy.
By AJC/DNC Management
December 1, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
3000 people were tortured and killed at the WTC and Pentagon, why do you libs not whine about that?
~~~~~
Actual Drudge Headline-
TWO CONSERVATIVES CHARGED WITH REVIVING HOUSE GOP…
Why do I have no trouble imagining this as a future headline?
By Midori
December 1, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this
3000 people were tortured and killed at the WTC and Pentagon, why do you libs not whine about that?
maybe because you do enough whining for all of us, combined?
By Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
December 1, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
When Matt Alexander states, “I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.”, I’d take it with a grain of salt for several reasons. First, we don’t know whether the statements he heard from terrorists were reflected the actual actions of his detainees or, rather, these were propaganda statements that were drilled into these devils in their Al Qaeda training camps. Next, we know not what lies in the heart of Matt Alexander and which interests he now serves, maybe he intends to run for congress in a liberal Massachusetts district or he wants a position in the Obama administration. Not trying to trash Alexander, but we just don’t know his motivation and, frankly, none of those with whom I have served and none of those whom I have known that returned from war have written an op-ed piece in the Washington Post, well, except John Kerry.
After 911, we were told that we were attacked because our troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia. Today, were are told that we are targetted because of “… the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.” The question I must ask is what did India do to earn its recent terrorist attacks. Is not 1/3rd of India Muslim? Don’t Indian Muslims freely practice their religion. Hasn’t India, since the days of Nehru and for most of its existence, been a leader in the third world block that opposes Israel. While the liberals breathlessly come up with reasons to rationalize why the US policy has caused terrorist attacks, maybe someone can please tell me: a) what exactly India did to earn its terrorist attack; and b) why we whould expect the terrorists to back off know that we are led by an infidel, i.e. the son of a Muslim who has renounced Islam and testified to his Christianity.
By RW-(the original)
December 1, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this
What Jay B doesn’t tell you is that “Mathew Alexander” is selling a book and the premise of his book undermines his own argument. All one needs do is look up a few simple time lines, but why expect a “journalist” to do that.
See y’all upstairs at happy hour!
By getalife
December 1, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
“I don’t think we’re headed to recession. But no question, we’re in a slowdown.”
w, dead wrong as usual.
By Truly Inspirational
December 1, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
Most excellent whining from the right-wingers today. Keep up the good work, Jay.
By getalife
December 1, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this
“I refused to participate in such practices, and a month later, I extended that prohibition to the team of interrogators I was assigned to lead. I taught the members of my unit a new methodology — one based on building rapport with suspects, showing cultural understanding and using good old-fashioned brainpower to tease out information. I personally conducted more than 300 interrogations, and I supervised more than 1,000. The methods my team used are not classified (they’re listed in the unclassified Field Manual), but the way we used them was, I like to think, unique. We got to know our enemies, we learned to negotiate with them, and we adapted criminal investigative techniques to our work (something that the Field Manual permits, under the concept of “ruses and trickery”). It worked. Our efforts started a chain of successes that ultimately led to Zarqawi.”
Nice work.
By Taxpayer
December 1, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
I see that the NBER has confirmed what many of us (or, at least those of us that don’t have our heads stuck up some Republican politician’s buttocks) had already believed to be the case: The U.S. economy has been in a recession since December 2007, the National Bureau of Economic Research said Monday.
By ByteMe
December 1, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this
Love it when the rightwingnuts try to discredit a member of the military and a real American patriot. Just shows everyone their true colors.
By "The Corporal"
December 1, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
Is it torture for conservatives to have to live under an Obama administration? Where is the ACLU and the U.N. when I need them?
By Copyleft
December 1, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this
Don’t worry, Corporal; unlike the previous administration, we’ll still allow our political opponents their full Constitutional rights.
Just one more example of how liberals are better than you….
By "The Corporal"
December 1, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this
To Copyleft
That’s not the kind of torture I meant but that’s o.k.
P.S.
I wonder if Obama is going to cancell those 20,000 U.S. troops taking over our country as soon as he gets into office ……….
I didn’t think you libs liked stuff like that.
Hummmmmm …. :o)
By AJC/DNC Management
December 1, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Wanna see the libs wig entirely out and start insanely babbling?:
Several thousand supporters waited in the cold to file into the James Brown Arena in Augusta. Vendors sold bright pink “Palin 2012” T-shirts and “Palin for President: You Go Girl” buttons. She was greeted like a rock star with chants of “Sa-rah!”
bwa
By Fear No Evil, No
December 1, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
I see that Palin is in Georgia stumping for Chambliss. Surely, listening to Palin is true torture for any sane person but that’s a story that will wait for another time. For now, I’ll just speculate a little on her true motivation for coming to Georgia.
I think Sarah must have agreed to come down and stump for Saxby — even though he’s one of the hated good old boys like McCain — with the hope that he’ll push for the development of an aircraft that’s more to her liking. I like to refer to such a craft as the FU2-Rapture. I just have a feeling that Sarah would do just about anything to get her claws on a craft like that especially if it came equipped with a special class of missile known as the Omega series. With a weapon such as that, she would probably be able to look into Putin’s eyes and see what real fear looks like — the fear of Sarah within arm’s reach of the button. How do you spell torture? S-A-R-A-H
By Midori
December 1, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
Andy,
I just read your 2:33, and would like to report that I have neither wigged out entirely, nor do I have a sudden urge to babble insanely.
By RealityKing
December 1, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
Radical Muslim fighters don’t need a pretense to fight SATAN…, surely lead US interrogator know this??
No obviously, it was the agenda driven war coverage itself that was responsible for more than half of US and Iraqi deaths. Aub Graib and Gitmo are no different because it was the progressive MSM that dubiously rushed to falsely labeled it ‘systemactic torture’. And now, studies are showing that increased violence closely followed the progressive war agenda. Whenever, where ever liberal columists, pundits and senators blindly called brave volunteers cold blooded killers, so too there more and more innocent people died. But of course, Jay feels no responsibility in verifing his sources. Just like this one…
By Paul
December 1, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
An entire article, along with several of the guy’s book reviews (of course, he’s writing a book) yet I didn’t find examples of ‘torture.’ Must be like pornography – you can’t define it but you know it when you see it.
But I did notice in his article he spoke how interrogators pushed to the limit the Army Field Manual on Interrogations, the standard held by our Democratic Congress, signed into law by Pres Bush.
Anyone see the irony, yet? We had a ‘bad’ situation. Democratic Congress responds with hearings, witnesses, reports, drafts, and finally, legislation. Laying out, in law, what we can do. Except the interrogators “push the boundaries” (whatever that means). But on to the irony. Remember the subprime fiasco? All the charges at the Bush Administration over deregulation and how Democrats would bring back Regulation and Oversight?
Well, here in the world of interrogations, they gave us Regulation. But apparently forgot about the Oversight. Anyone know how many hearings Waxman or Frank or anyone held after the law was passed to see how things were going? Anyone? Just one little hearing?
Oversight gives way to the next headline. Pathetic.
By Logical Dude
December 1, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
AJC/DNC & Wyld Byl, So, you attack the person with the message, and not the message itself? I agree that when the war started, it was before Gitmo and Abu Graib were even known. that was years later. STILL, torture is used for recruiting purposes and will garner many more terrorists than if the US maintains the high ground and follows the rules of law that we ourselves pushed for.
Do you really believe that torture is good? What if there happened to be a democratic president at the time? I am SURE you would decry any form of torture as un-American and would demand an investigation and call for heads to roll. I would do that for ANY administration. You have to look past party or president, and look at what we as a country stand for.
By GodHatesTrash
December 1, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
Regarding the notion that we are “slaughtering” our enemies in Iraq put forth by one of the RightWingnuts:
While it is true that hundreds of thousands of people have died in Iraq, the estimate of enemy insurgent/combatant/terrorist deaths is somewhere between 12,000 and 20,000, including over a thousand suicide bombers. Roughly 4000 of these casualties are considered to be Al Qaeda members.
The “coalition” has lost around 4500 killed, and the Iraqi security forces have lost over 8500.
Sad and sobering to think that the greatest army in the world is having trouble maintaining a 1:1 kill ratio against a ragtag army of misfits.
Invariably, patience beats hubris and arrogance, over time.
By catlady
December 1, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
What is our Palin of the day? What “incredible” thing has she said today? I am sorely in need of a laugh.
I have little hope that the people of Georgia will show some small degree of common sense and vote the ne’re do well Saxby Chambliss out of office. He is INCAPABLE and UNWILLING to represent the interests of the taxpayers of Georgia. He does, however, represent HIS OWN interests quite well.
Look at his record. Then “reward” him by voting him OUT and back into the real world. Let him “enjoy” the world he helped make for us (when it didn’t interfere with his golf game).
For those of you who vote for him: help us all. Just give your money directly to him. He will put i t with the lobbyists’ money and continue to live the high life.
Anyone remember the old Bob Horner ad where he says “Ouch, my wrist”? Old Saxby perfected the “Ouch, my knee” when his country needed him. Taught his family how to avoid service as well. From someone whose grandfathers, father, father in law, and exhusband all served, I have little patience with “You go in my place” Saxby Chambliss.
By Truly Inspirational
December 1, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
Torture for the Republican voter in Georgia comes around again tomorrow. They want so much to do their civic duty and vote but their candidate in the Senate runoff is Saxby Chambliss. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Go ahead, you loyal Republicans, and hold your nose and pick the liberal blood sucker Saxby to represent you for SIX MORE YEARS. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
By jason
December 2, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this
the saw movies and episodes shows like 24 desensitized the majority of americans to torture.
By Patty K
December 3, 2008 7:24 AM | Link to this
Obama is failing the American People on BOTH the “say” and the “do” fronts.
We Torture. The public knows it. The impeachophobes on the Hill know it. It is a truth that forces Obama, and every other American, to choose sides. Condemn the War Criminals in the White House by demanding impeachment or Protect them by allowing Pelosi’s “off the table” edict to stand.
Obama has chosen to Protect the War Criminals. By failing to call for immediate impeachment and removal, he is saying “Bush is right” and/or “Americans are unprincipled cowards who refuse to actually Do Something to defend the principles we give lip service to.”
We don’t need to wait to see if Obama “makes good” on his promises to stand as a “beacon of democracy and justice” and to “restore” the law he is refusing to enforce. His refusal to impeach negates those promises. Without impeachment, the pretense that the Democratic leadership is actually Doing Something about torture is “a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
We are Citizens; Not Subjects. An executive who claims the power to “give back” or “restore” law should be as horrifying to us as one who claims the power to break law with impunity. The power, and the duty to defend our sovereign authority by removing a tyrant lies with Congress and Congress alone.
There is no substitute for impeachment. Justice demands prosecution, but after-the-fact prosecution does absolutely NOTHING to demonstrate our ability to uphold our laws as a nation, IN REAL TIME, when it actually matters. If Congress refuses to say NO to torture, why would anyone trust the United States to enforce ANY promise we make in treaty or law.
At the conclusion of his Washington Post article, the leader of the interrogation team tells us he is “optimistic” because “Obama has promised to outlaw the practice of torture.” Like so many other victims of “beltway blindness” he apparently fails to recognize that a promise to outlaw something that is ALREADY outlawed is a promise to DO NOTHING.
Failure to question such nonsense is what we get when otherwise rational people don’t bother to question the self-defeating prophecies and senseless group think emanating from the beltway. Sometimes I can’t help but wonder “With friends like this, who needs enemies?”
As long as Bush and Cheney occupy the White House, it is not “too late” to impeach. If people like Mr. Bookman, Jonathan Turley, Keith Olbermann, Jane Mayer, Ron Suskind, and the many other “good guys” out there would just stop talking about the need for some future prosecution or truth commission and start talking about the need to Impeach Right Now, we could see the resistance to impeachment crumble so fast it would leave the DC “talking heads” speechless.