By GodHatesTrash

November 17, 2008 6:55 AM | Link to this

Rather than plow $700B to prop up all these disastrously run companies, use the money to fund a national health insurance system. And make it against the law for employers to fund their employees’ health insurance.

For Detroit, this would immediately improve their balance sheets.

By copy leftwing nutjob

November 17, 2008 7:08 AM | Link to this

These automaker have contracts negotiated with the United Auto Workers that impose huge costs.

The average hourly cost per worker in this country is about $28.48.

For these auto makers, it’s $73. And for the Japanese auto companies working here in the United States, it’s $48.

The union has price their workers out of a job.

By AJC/DNC Management

November 17, 2008 7:12 AM | Link to this

Basic sound economic policy, know what the problems are and correct them-

That’s simply untrue. Detroit was struggling badly long before the financial crunch hit, with long-simmering problems that can be traced to mistakes by both labor and management.

By not domestically producing oil and keeping the price of energy affordable, the government destroyed the largest segment of the auto makers profits, that being light trucks and SUVs.

By mandating CAFE fuel standards, the government forced the automakers to spend needless money complying and building cars that consumers don’t want.

The unions constantly raising the costs of labor, so that it is nearly double that of the foreign automakers, add a cost to each vehicle that prices it out of the market.

Capital gains tax rates?

Business tax rates?

Dismissing the real problems in favor of “mistakes made by labor and management” guarantees that after blowing through the first 50 Billion, the automakers will be back for more.

And more.

And more.

By bob jones

November 17, 2008 7:16 AM | Link to this

Saving the Auto Industry

It seems apparent that the government will be looking to help the auto industry. However, as both the Tom Friedman of the NY Times and Paul Ingrassia of the Wall Street Journal commented this week, you should beware of giving money back to the same folks and culture that created the problem. Therefore I suggest:

For the next 4 years, give a rebate of the lesser of $10,000 cash or 75% of the real and monitored invoiced price of the automobile DIRECTLY to the consumer who purchases VEHICLES THAT COME OFF AMERICAN ASSEMBLY LINES and only under the following conditions:

a. This could apply to any manufacturer of vehicles, large or startup, that manufactures vehicles in the USA and not just GM, Ford , or Chrysler. – increases competition b. Any car that currently achieves 30 miles per gallon or better and then increasing 2.5 miles per gallon EVERY year in January for the next 4 years c. Any vehicle that runs on at least 80% alternative fuels - ethanol, natural gas, biofuels, hydrogen, electric, etc. - This should also progressively increase to 100% within 4 years. Any vehicle that runs on 100% alternative fuel should get a 90% rebate d. A similar rebate of the lesser of $25,000 cash or 75% should go to American manufactured trucks, semi’s, motor homes, boats, tractors, farm machinery, bulldozers, fork lifts, etc. and any engine based vehicles and heavy construction equipment that are American made and have achieved upgraded energy efficient standards. Their standards should be based upon a 4-year graduated scale of that will also achieve energy independence for those vehicles in 4 years. Again any vehicle in this category that runs on 100% alternative fuel should get a 90% rebate. e. This rebate should be in the form of a 1% interest only loan back to the manufacturers for the first 4 years and then 1% plus principle payback over the next 15 years.

This plan will definitely work immediately and benefit the country in many ways: A. It is less wasteful more trusting to put demands on the manufacturer through the purchasing and demand based channel than going through the supplier channel B. The entire channel from the purchaser receiving the rebate to the manufacturer, to the worker at the manufacturing plant to the parts company, the sales representative, the dealership, etc. are all in the Tax Channel and will pay federal taxes on the money directly received by the purchaser from their rebate and also from the manufacturer and various people associated with the sale of that vehicle. So the rebate will not end up being even close to the direct amount sent out, but it needs to be sizable enough to attract sales and change behavior quickly.
C. The extra sales will generate local municipal sales and auto registration and other local desperately needed tax revenues D. We know that rebates work to stimulate sales - Just ask the auto industry E. We put the money right where you want it - buying AMERICAN vehicles and restoring an industry F. It FORCES the auto companies to make the cars and trucks of the future as demanded by the consumer. It encourages American start up to increase competition for the autos of the future G. It forces the Oil Companies to start offering and distributing the energy products America needs at the service station level. With lower oil prices resulting in lower gasoline prices, there is no pressure for the Oil Companies or the auto industry to change as we all await the next crisis I. We immediately domesticate the energy supply with a locally based energy system to fuel our vehicles. This will save billions of dollars, no matter what the cost of imported fuel may be. J. It will obviously stimulate sales that will upgrade the standards of car and truck fleets which will also increase safety on the roads. K. This type of job stimulation of the auto industry will necessitate bringing back those plants that have closed down which will revive many of the municipalities. Direct infusion of cash to the Companies will only make for continued consolidation of their industries. This is a revenue generating, new product based plan and not a cost saving slashing one that they are currently using to protect the existing structure. To increase production domestically to gain sales, the companies will be forced to use their idle closed down assets. L. When you run the numbers of how much will be really given, it will be far more than this direct rebate appears to be. M. The only way to grow the economy and get out of debt is to sell American made products that generate good paying American jobs and get taxes from those workers. The American auto industry is the right investment when done the right way.
N. There is also a significant and immediate savings in environmental costs and expenditures to regulate and pay for improving air standards.

By Joey

November 17, 2008 7:27 AM | Link to this

The Union Members should ask themselves the same questions that I asked my Brotherhood of Way Employees Father over 30 years ago.

Who are the highest paid members of the Union? Which union member has the most benefits? Which union members have the biggest homes and big new cars and send their children to private schools and colleges? And who sits down with Management for drinks and dinner and dancing?

Now who is taking care of you (and the other laborers)? Dad the answer is nobody is taking care of you.

By G

November 17, 2008 7:44 AM | Link to this

American automakers have had decades to change - remember the gas shortages of the early and mid 70’s?

The ‘Big 3’ have actually fought against fuel efficiency standards, and American consumers have gone along with them - buying gas hogs.

Why should the government bail-out every industry that cries boo-hoo?

They need to re-tool and produce new, greener vehicles.

Maybe a loan, but please, not another bail-out.

By Copyleft

November 17, 2008 7:49 AM | Link to this

GHT has a good suggestion, although it’s not directly related to the problems in the auto industry itself. But relieving employers of the healthcare-costs expense via national healthcare would help all industries.

Of course, the same auto-industry executives who are now crying for a bailout are the same ones who took home HUGE salaries and bonuses while sending lobbyists to Congress telling them to “stay out of our business, don’t regulate us, don’t bother us with fuel-efficiency concerns or emissions rules or anything else that’s best for America. We’ll do it all ourselves.”

I suggest we take them at their word. They wanted a hands-off approach, so now they should sink or swim on their own.

By Maggie Thatcher fan

November 17, 2008 7:52 AM | Link to this

Back in the 1970’s we should have implemented this solution: In addition to the Federal Reserve note, we need regional “central bank” notes, not unlike Thatcher’s insistence on preserving the British Pound alongside of the Euro. Instead of just greenbacks, we’d have “rainbow money.” A “forex” (foreign currency exchange) would create liquidity, but instead of losing the Rust Belt and 400 (!) of the Fortune 500 companies that were located within 100 miles of Cleveland. It is said that there are “9 nations of North America”, meaning 9 economic regions, and each such region deserves its own currency, and more importantly, its own central bank interest rate. When the 1970’s cost push inflation and real estate bubble was occuring in California the Federal Reserve staunched the inflation without consideration to saving the Rust Belt, which went to China. What were we thinking? and why haven’t we fixed it yet?

Although it made a lot of money for China speculators back then, we lost the jobs and the homeland security infrastructure. Bad idea. So, whatever aid package is done, how about we also implement regional currencies (and this might just be localized swap instruments) and regional interest rate policies? We could even go back on a gold standard nationally, if we could successfully tweak each of the “9 nations” (software and logging in the northwest, airplane manufacturing in the southwest, grain growers of the upper midwest, the Cleveland-Detroit manufacturing region, retirement and entertainment in the southeast, etc.) or whatever functional economies that we determine we have. We could even have an offshore currency, the one used as the world’s reserve currency.

One size does NOT fit all— one currency and one interest rate does not solve our economic growth problems, and we should go back to diversity, and let our hardworking arbitrage computers find exchange rates, and we could use gold as a standard again. The math in the econometrics models would start working again.

Mr Greenspan, is this not the paradigm you are lacking?

By RW-(the original)

November 17, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this

How about we just let them avail themselves of the Federal program that already exists to give them the breathing room they need and the ability to refine all of those business relationships. Chapter 11.

By Joey

November 17, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

RW (the original) at 8:22.

You are exactly right. Chapter 11 exist for a reason.

By southfulton

November 17, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

I tend to favor something like Bob Jones is expressing. Why can’t we give consumers a huge tax credit or a stipend to go and buy american cars so we don’t actually ahve to give the automakers any money but we can spur the economy and hopefully put some money in the automaker’s waller.

By im4ball

November 17, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

When was the last time any one saw anything original from a U.S. Automaker? All you see are bodies stlyes copied from foreign manufacturers like that is going to make Americans purchase thier cars.

It’s time for these companies to restructure and the only way that is going to happen is for they to deal with their own financial woes.

In the short term would be issues with layoffs that would ripple throughout the entire U.S. economy as not only the automakers would be affected but also their suppliers, auto sellers and loan companies. However, there are several ways this would eventually be resolved.

Based on the fact that there is still a market for the autos 1. A new company or companies would rise out of the ashes of the old. 2. Foreign automakers would buy up the remains of the old companies. Which ever happens, production would flow and people would be rehired.

And, the absolutly best thing to (hopefully) happen would be the downsizing or even disolution of the UAW which is an entity who’s time has come and gone and who is hurting the companies and the people it pretends to protect.

While it may hurt for a short time, it’s time to let these companies sink or swim on their own.

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

You’re going to see a lot of yes, but general statements from him. Just like his wimpy failure to vote in the Illinois Senate.

By AJC/DNC Management

November 17, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

Things are certainly bad. It looks like third-quarter gross domestic product growth will be revised deep into negative territory. The data in hand suggest that fourth-quarter GDP will drop at a rate of as much as 4 percent.-Bloomberg

Are we going to bail everybody out?

By LOLO

November 17, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

Dang Jay, I actually agree with you. Yes, the labor organizations and management have killed the industry. It’s hard to innovate and produce better quality products within the United States like the foreign competition is doing when all the potential R&D funds are allocated for $95/hr assembly line inspectors. Let the fossils fail and let new indutry free from the binds of unions proper and fill the void. Toyota would be the first to hire experienced Detroit auto workers…for less $.

By Paul

November 17, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

Interesting. So far, no unconditional support for a loan.

Looks like “oversight and regulation” is finally sinking in.

And if this is going to be a regular feature of Pres-elect Obama - “show me your plan” - lots and lots of groups and agencies are going to have lots and lots of problems.

Oh, minor point - bit of wordsmithing - last Saturday - Hillary Clinton standing at a podium as SecState - she’d stand at a lectern. Podiums are for standing on, to elevate the speaker (or orchestra conductor). From pes pedis - referencing feet. Not many politicians want to be seen as short and in need of a boost.

By getalife

November 17, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

gop to Detroit- Drop dead. Good for them.

Congress is back to throw our money at bad decisions.

Rewarding failure is not change, that was gop.

By TN Gelding

November 17, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

AJC/DNC Management

November 17, 2008 7:12 AM

The worst thing the Clinton Administration did was allow SUVs to be classified as trucks to circumvent CAFE standards.

What to do?

From e-mail archives:

Monday, November 17, 2008 12:16 AM

We can’t let GM and Ford go out of business. National health insurance would get that monkey off of their backs and the BPGC could assume their pension obligations. They need to go ahead and start producing their concept cars, too. Plus they need to retrofit all their existing vehicles with a simple gas-saving device.

By DB, Gwinnettian

November 17, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

To paraphrase what Obama had said about our invasion of Iraq: I’d like us to be as careful about intervening to prop up automakers, as we were careless in funnelling a trillion dollars to banking institutions this summer.

I want to see a variety of plans discussed publicly, with a clear understanding of the costs and benefits involved. I don’t claim to know what would produce the best outcome five, ten years from now, but I do know that we need to be thinking about that timeline, rather than just the next quarter.

Having written this, my inclination is to use the likelihood of rather strict government (actually, judicial) control that would follow from allowing the automakers to fall into Chapter 11, with very real hardships felt top to bottom within the industry and its suppliers as leverage to permit something like a “taxpayer’s seat” on the board of directors for these corporations in exchange for financial help. Put bluntly, I’d have to seriously threaten to allow them to fall into bankruptcy and be willing to have my bluff called if it came to that. As for what changes I would impose on the companies if I were given that “seat:” I would presume that the companies and their product are an essential part of our country’s infrastructure. Cars are, after all, the way a majority of Americans get from Point A to Point B rather than rail, trolley or bus; so long as that’s the case we all have some interest in how these products are brought to market and what types of vehicles are encouraged/discouraged.

My inclination would be to seriously encourage plug-in hybrids running on flex fuels, since it uses technology available here and now and creates the best chance to wean ourselves off at least some petroleum based fuels. There’d be a ton of fussing from people who just love their monster trucks and SUVs, who would protest mightily any tax surcharges or production mandates, but I think we’re at the public tipping point on public acceptability those beasts now, anyway.

Basically, our vehicles would look a lot more like what you’ve seen being driven in Western Europe over the past decade-plus. They’d sound different, though, because the Euros have hitched their fortunes more to conventional internal combustion engines, albeit with a lot of nice, fuel-efficient turbo-diesel models.

If this seems far-reaching, well, it’s because our reasons for helping the Big Three need to be visionary and holistic. I don’t want this to be just another pointless installment payment on failure.

By Goldie

November 17, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

Our New President is correct — no blank checks! It’s past time that our American automakers get serious about producing fuel-efficient non-gas-guzzlers to wean us off of our oil addiction, once and for all! We should only help the Big Three with stipulations that the CEOs and other execs are fired without their golden parachutes, and a whole new management team gets to work on producing 21st century products!

By ByteMe

November 17, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

I’d offer them a lifeline, but only under the following conditions:

~~~

Even if you threw money at the automakers, the problem is more systemic, because the credit is not available for people to purchase autos. Having more cash isn’t going to get people to buy more cars if they can’t get financing. Bottom line is that unless the government plans to carry the automakers for 2-3 years while the credit markets get sorted out, they will likely go bankrupt anyway. Might as well do it now and lower their cost structure while we are in a recession.

By Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

November 17, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

For the liberal sheople sniffing President Obama’s flank, let me lay this one out for you. Obama won because of organized labor. The Democrats won majorities in Congress because of organized labor. Obama and the Democrats owe organized labor and the chit has been called. While POTUS (President Obama of the US) speaks in the high minded generalisms of the campaign. His flying monkeys (i.e) Barney Frank are out there trying to “back door” a bail out for oranized labor. The car companies can’t be fixed unless labor and legacy costs are reduced; Organzied Labor will not let labor or legacy costs be reduced; and Organized Labor owns Obam,a and the Deomcrats. W should veto anything (short of DIP financiang for a prepackaged bankruptcy that reduced labor and legacy costs to a level below foreign owned us factories) and let us see is Obama has the nuts to do what is right for the country or if he is merely a partisan shill (regardles of rhetoric or, in his words, actually Duval Patrick’s words, “words, just words) that is owned lock, stock, and barrel by organized labor and ready to sell the rest of America down the river.

By TN Gelding

November 17, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

AJC/DNC Management

November 17, 2008 7:12 AM

Is it OK if we bury you in one of your Escalades?

And have the other two converted to condos for the homeless?

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

Everyone stand up and holler for the Union

Let’s give the Brotherhood a cheer

Everyone stand up and holler for the Union

We ain’t hit a lick all year !!!

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

OH NO!! ORGANIZED LABOR

Please dear lord, please protect me from deranged drill press operators! Don’t let assembly line workers any where near me! I live in fear of pipe fitters and electricians, plumbers and autoworkers.

By TN Gelding

November 17, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

From my e-mail buddy (USAF) this morning.

How to bail out GM.

What about buying up most existing inventory and shipping it to our OPEC “friends” and Alaska?

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

To Mrs. G

Have you ever been a member of a union? You know, not the wimpy NEA but the type that uses physical intimidation and even a little muscle out back of the shop now and then?

I have.

By williebkind

November 17, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

Jay where can I find that OBAMA is a legal citizen? I can not find anywhere that Obama is a legal citizen. Now is that not a good story? Why are you not reporting such a deception if it is true or not..

By TN Gelding

November 17, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

Another Time-ly article.

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

To Williebkind

Don’t hold your breath but this Supreme Court website (Berg vs. Obama Docket 08-570) shows the court (Judge Souter) is awaiting a response on December 1st.

That response is a valid certified copy of Obama’s birth certificate. The Supreme Court ruled previously not to delay the election but they yet await the birth certificate.

It will be interesting to see what happens if Obama defies the Supreme Court order.

http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08-570.htm

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

Actually Corporal, I never needed the benfits of a union. The work that my grandfather did on the streets of Chicago in the 20’s and 30’s provided all the protection I have needed to date.

‘Course for every union thug….there were a couple of well paid union busters with a club and a pistol. Is that how you started out?

williebkind

Where can we find out if YOU are a legal US citizen? You birth certificate may have been forged by your parents. Is yo’ mamma really yo’ mamma? And just who is your daddy?

By RealityKing

November 17, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

The Unions will drive this bailout through Congress no matter what we think, that’s the rewards for voting democratic these days. Unless of course.., you still dubiously believe that the American auto industry is a good investment.

By HUH?

November 17, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

By AJC/DNC Management

November 17, 2008 7:12 AM | Link to this

“By not domestically producing oil and keeping the price of energy affordable, the government destroyed the largest segment of the auto makers profits, that being light trucks and SUVs.”

You CANNOT be serious - you think the biggest problem is that we aren’t producing the oil needed to power the continued watefulness of gas guzzling vehicles!! That is an example of the selfish, greedy, “I got mine, to h* with the everybody else” mentality that has gotten America into this problem.

“building cars that consumers don’t want.”

You better START wanting them - they are what the rest of the world is driving and the only way for the US to remain competitive and rebuild our economy. Join the rest of us in the 21st Century.

And don’t give me the “some people need trucks” - of course they do, but most people who aare driving SUVs and pickups do so by choice, not because their livelihood demands it.

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

Reality King….

I haven’t thought of the American auto industry as a good investment in the decades that I have had to choose a Japanese or German car in order to get better than average gas mileage and reliability.

Republican thinking at the top of the industry got us Hummers and TownCars and mega pick ups that swallow gas and belch noxious fumes.

The only part of the industry worth saving are the workers.

Saving the working class most certainly is one of the benefits of voting democratic these days.

By AJC/DNC Management

November 17, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

By HUH? November 17, 2008 10:38 AM You CANNOT be serious - you think the biggest problem is that we aren’t producing the oil needed to power the continued watefulness of gas guzzling vehicles!! That is an example of the selfish, greedy, “I got mine, to h with the everybody else” mentality that has gotten America into this problem.*

Blah, blah, blah.

America wasn’t built with the Tonka Toys you play with in your sandbox.

You’ll figure it out.

The hard way.

By Richard

November 17, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

The solution is pretty easy:

Give them $100 billion with the condition of no more gas powered cars.

By BDAtlanta

November 17, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this

You can’t force innovation on these companies.

These companies got the wake up call in the early 70’s and 30 years later they are still not able to compete with the best the Japanese have to offer? Bankruptcy and let them re-org. They will come back eventually. We can buy Japanese cars until then (well, we already are…)

Use some of the money to help retrain the workers.

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this

To Mrs. G.

Looks like you’ve had a pretty protected life.

Unions used to be a necessary evil but the time has come when they are now the unnecessary evil.

Let me ask you, are you for secret balloting for Union organizing?

By BDAtlanta

November 17, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Is my bailout check in the mail? Gotta get me some bailout!!

I need to get this 52” flat screen TV for the bowl games coming up next month..and Larry the Cable Guy has a new box set coming out…

By Nickel & Dime = Change

November 17, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

The only part of the industry worth saving are the workers

Correction…the only part of the industry worth saving is the jobs. It has been proven that these companies cannot survive under their current business model. File Chapter 11, tear up the contracts and start over. The UAW has proven they do not want to be a part of the solution.

By williebkind

November 17, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

By Mrs. Godzilla:

Yes I can prove I am American citizen. My family dates back to the late 1700’s. Also, I had a top secret clearance with the United States Army. That required more investigation of my past than you have done for Obama. Is he a legal citizen? The president must be a citizen. Do you know that?

By williebkind

November 17, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

Mrs. Godzilla:

Yes I can prove I am American citizen. My family dates back to the late 1700’s. Also, I had a top secret clearance with the United States Army. That required more investigation of my past than you have done for Obama. Is he a legal citizen? The president must be a citizen. Do you know that?

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

williebkind

Yep, learned it in 3rd grade civics.

Later in life learned that crackpots can stir up a tempest in a teapot.

By the way, my family was here 100 years before yours….Granny registered my sisters and I with the DAR when we were born.

Kissinger and Albright had top secret clearance too….they were foriegn born.

Corporal

No need to dance around the employee free choice act dude….yes, I support it as is as does the afl-cio and the seiu.

I had a protected life when I needed protection. Now I provide protection for those who need it. Ain’t it wonderful how that works?

By williebkind

November 17, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

Godzilla: Wow third grade civics…that means you did not attend public schools…yes those mentioned did have clearances and they had a background check to verify. I see you want me to play by the rules but you do not. It figures.

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

williebkind

no sir convent educated, BVM’s and SoJ’s. 17 years…read the Prince in 6th grade….

what exactly does this nonsense sentence mean? “I see you want me to play by the rules but you do not. It figures.”

Whaaaat?

Please try and make sense.

By RealityKing

November 17, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

Obviously Mrs. Godzilla is one of those thousands of ex-auto workers that’s now collecting early retirement. And when did early retirement become a union benefit back by the US government??

By williebkind

November 17, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

I am sorry I was multitasking when I wrote that however there is not excuse for it. I wanted to say—it is not a concern for your party to skip a few rules…like the president must be a citizen but you would demand that any other party prove their candidates qualifications on the spot. Do you remember the group your party sent to Alaska? Is that not different standards/different rules? You will have to excuse me but I am a product of public schools. I guess my parents needed vouchers. But I do like conversing with you educated liberals. You are the educators! Why is it not a concern for you that Obama has not a provided legal citizenship?

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

To Mrs. G.

Then I find it hard to believe that you (a patriotic American) would not support free choice (secret ballot) vs. intimidation.

Hard to fathom ………… you suprised me on that one.

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

williebkind

Obama’s birth certificate was released and verified. Berg wears a tin foil fedora.

Click here

Unless of course you think the State of Hawaii is in on the conspiracy?

Are you refering to the parachuting lawyers quip from an Op-Ed that was a joke?

Click here

corporal

I suspect that the unions themselves, who support the measure know what is best in their situation.

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

To Mrs. G

BIRTH CERTIFICATE

This is from the Official Supreme Court site. Please explain the December 1st request date.

http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08-570.htm

P.S. I spent a good part of my career regarding forged, altered, counterfeit and false documents. Someone needs to produce the original to the Supreme Court for authentication as to its face and its content.

UNION VOTING

You really surprise me on this one. It’s not like you to so flippantly disregard democracy in union voting. Sad.

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

Coporal

Are you telling me you buy into the birth certificate conspiracy theory?

Really?

Talk about sad.

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

corporal

do you think that means the Supreme Court will take away Hawaii’s statehood?

Buy Reynolds wrap - the choice for the finest in tin foil hats!

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

To Mrs. G.

I didn’t say I believed anything. I am only looking for evidence that satisfies me. I simply asked you to explain the December 1st request date by Judge Souter. Can you not answer the question?

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

To Mrs. G.

P.S. Who do you think killed President Kennedy ?

By GodHatesTrash

November 17, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Well, with the nutjobs and idjits they allow in the Secret Service, it could have been anybody…

By Abomi Nation

November 17, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

Who was that person that kept saying around here that Obama couldn’t get a security clearance? Those were the days.

I swear this guy also said he was some kind of secret government agent or something, and knew how the government worked when it came to these types of “security” issues. I think his blog name was James.

Anyway these crack pots and their silly fantasies. (I think Obama’s dog ate the birth certificate btw.)

Oh my God Conservatives! Maybe Obama’s birth certificate is with President Bush’s military records! We will never see it again.

I’ve heard that on the back of Obama’s birth certificate is proof of Hillary’s 43 person murder rampage she committed a few years back. Again, WOW.

It must be found!!!

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 17, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

corporal

Can’t answer the question….but I’m not too terribly worried about it.

Can you explain it? If so please do.

I suspect the Supreme Court will trust the State of Hawaii.

Can you imagine the looks on the faces of Scalia and Thomas if they get invaded by mad hula dancers?

I’ll go with the consenus on the Kennedy assasination. Oswald.

Although I think somebody here claimed to be on the grassy knoll that day last week.

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

To GodHatesTrash

If you want to take me on that’s fine but that’s was a pretty unpatriotic statement toward a lot of men and women who gave their lives for this country in that organization. But coming from you it doesn’t surprise me.

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

To Mrs. G.

BIRTH CERTIFICATE

It is my understanding:

1) A “Mr. Berg” filed suit to stop/suspend the 11/4 election based on his claim of Obama’s non-citizenship and the Supreme Court denied the request.

2) However, Justice Souter left open and continued the case pending receipt of the requested the birth certificate from the State of Hawaii by December 1st. The website address I gave above showing that is the Supreme Court’s website (not a news item).

3) A “certified” copy of the birth certificate was released to the press months back. However, news reports at the time indicated it was missing items normally on birth certificates of that time frame including the hospital and delivery doctor of record. There were many other questions about the birth certificate but that may or may not be addressed by Justice Souter.

4) Concerning your point about trust, I assume the State of Hawaii will comply with the request of the Supreme Court.

KENNEDY

I am happy to learn you are not a “conspiracy theorist” on that one. By the way, did you know (most people don’t or won’t bring it up) that Oswald got his job at the Texas School Book Depository weeks before it was announced the President was coming to Dallas let alone that the parade route (announced the day before) was coming by his building.

Hummmmmmm…………..

By "The Corporal"

November 17, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

To AbomiNation

You do err my son.

If he were a government employee he could in all probability not get a Top Secret clearance and based on his admitted cocaine use he could not become a Secret Service agent.

Since he was elected President that does not apply as he does not have to pass a security clearance as president.

Any other points you wish to make?

Corporal James

By Jack Chen

November 19, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

We should spend $25 Billion for US consumers instant rebate of $5,000 to buy fuel efficient cars (>30MPG). That would create an incentive for consumers and give Automakers enough production volume ( 5 Million cars) to survive instead of putting that money into a drain for layoff and downsize.

It is simple, quick and effective. All parties (Auto Makers, UAW and consumers) will be happy.

By Steve

November 26, 2008 12:00 AM | Link to this

The CEOs were not honest. Their crisis did not just happen because of the credit crisis. They have been losing billions for years. It doesn’t matter what the volume of autos sold is because they lose money on what they sell due to their labor costs. The quality went down due to their outrageous labor costs and benefits. They will never make a profit unless they can undo the UAW contracts. The CEOs can’t even decide to stop making a particular car and switch to another to meet market demands because the UAW’s contract dictates what models will be made, how many and where. No company can operate like this. These problems are the result of the UAW union. It is not the business of Congress to use taxpayer’s money to prolong corporate losses so that the UAW workers can be overpaid. UAW needs a reality check. These companies will never be profitable and will never be able to pay back the money. Numerous other companies are going under. You don’t see them demanding handouts from Congress. News for the UAW. The UAW is not special. No rewards for the UAW who destroyed the big 3. Get a real job and learn how the rest of Americans live.

By Karen

December 9, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

Why is bankruptcy not an option? It should be, the auto industry needs serious restructuring.

Let’s not forget, that if the goverment offers billions in supsidies, it has a global effect. If Japan subsidized their auto industry with billion…the trade sanctions imposed by the US would be HUGE. We can not expect the same will not happen in reverse. To not take that into account is simply foolish.