By Taxpayer

November 7, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this

What gave it away, Jay.

By AJC/DNC Management

November 7, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

Gee, I thought the mere thought of an Oblahma presidency was supposed to “part the seas” and fill the money trees full of greenbacks?

It’s almost as though America is taking steps to protect itself from Thee Anointed One.

By Taxpayer

November 7, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this

Andy,

The seas are parted and the money trees are being planted. We have yet to determine time to maturity for those greenbacks. We’ll keep you posted.

By tcoach

November 7, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

Italic: Retail sales fell as well, particularly at the upper end. Nordstrom, for example, reported that its same-store sales fell 15.7 percent in October. Something tells me Santa’s sleigh will be a little light this year

Guess that top 5% is starting to shrink.

So does this mean we will be raising the percentage of those getting tax increases, or does it mean some are not going to get as big of a check back?

By Zach

November 7, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

On a more positive note, maybe Andy will lose his computer or internet connection..

By RealityKing

November 7, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this

But aren’t you feeling inspired now Jay??

Welcome to socialistic revolution baby!!

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 7, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

I see that the GOP KoolAid drinkers think it’s “just add water”.

That’s the same kind of thinking that got us into this mess.

Take a chill pill dudes, it will be a while till we see relief.

It takes time to shovel away 8 years of bulldookey.

By RealityKing

November 7, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

Have no fear Jay…, the liberal messiah is about to speak>>>

“Obama confers with advisers on crisis. Following a meeting with his transition economic advisory board, the president-elect will hold his first post-election press conference.”

By findog

November 7, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

In the Gainesville Times this Thursday there were twelve jobs advertised and fourteen pages of foreclosure notices. That trend has held steady for the last month.

By Abomi Nation

November 7, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

Nordstrom, for example, reported that its same-store sales fell 15.7 percent in October.

Well that serves them right. Their sales are down about the same as the liberal AJC.

If Nordstrom weren’t so damn liberal they wouldn’t be losing so many customers. Customers are rejecting their liberal clothing. Too many minorities now work in their stores. They no longer sell those cute little button hats women used to wear to church. You never find conservative clothing there. Their 2 for 1 sales promote welfare.

By RealityKing

November 7, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

I predict that Obama will elegantly convey the sincerity of his new liberalistic approaches to “fixing” our market crisis.., and that the market will then drop sharply to finish down about 382 points. Takers??

By GayGrayGeek

November 7, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Mrs. G, so you soooooo right. Just as “Rome wasn’t built in a day”, it’s going to take a while for America to recover from the antics of Duh-Bya And The Coconuts.

Things will start getting better in late January, but “better” is far, far different from “well”. A point that the Paleocon Wingnuts either miss, or just flat-out ignore. I’d venture the latter, since most of ‘em can’t be bothered with concepts like “demonstrable facts” and “verifiable truth” and instead - like RK and Andy - just parrot Faux Noise invective.

By Midori

November 7, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

hey haters!!

the president elect will be giving a press conference — coming up on CNN.

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 7, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

GGG

Right On Dude!

The GOP even tried “instant” vice president and we see how well that worked out.

By Swami Dave

November 7, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Anyone who deludes themselves into believing that the events since Wednesday are completely a result of the election results is living outside the realm of reality.

Likewise, anyone who deludes themselves into the belief that none of them are a response by individuals and groups reorganizing, reprioritizing, and restructuring their economic / financial situations in response to policies that were the basic platform of Senator Obama is equally disconnected from reality.

Frankly, so long as the opposing groups continue to act like rabid monkeys angrily flinging “stuff” between equally confining cages instead of focusing on the bigger problems (like captivity), our odds of resolving them are dim. Personally, I, while being no moderate voice, have better things to do & can be of much greater use than being a “flinger”.

-Swami Dave

By Zach

November 7, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

If you look at the heat maps of foreclosures around the metro area, it doesn’t look good. They are widespread over all the areas.

Regardless what BurgerKing says, it’s affecting everyone, no matter what location you are in.

By Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

November 7, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Its just stunning that the do nothing Democrat congressional leadership could drive the great Bush economy into the toilet so quickly. Even more stunning that the center-right would stay home and let a coalition of kids, minorities, under or unemployed, and peverts vote to give firm control of all three legislative branches to the Democrats. Well, I guess the next four years will get pretty dark before Sarah shows us the silverlining and the path to our shining city on the hill.

By G

November 7, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

It’s going to take a long, long time for this country to recover from the dastardly deeds of Bush and Co. I am so glad we have intelligent and calm President-elect Obama to take the reins.

I just wish Bush and his crowd would get out of the way right this very minute and let President-elect Obama start the clean-up.

By @@

November 7, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

Hopefully jay, the uneducated among us won’t fall for the “Buy one - get one free” or “50% off the 2nd Item” deals……..which they are not btw.

It’s important to know the cost of the original item so as to avoid getting shafted by the bargain filler.

But what’s done is done…..

I’ve always been a smart shopper although I do it as seldom as possible. I’d rather put my money in a true savings account where it will sustain me through the tumultuous times.

By Bushwhacked

November 7, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

The thing to do would be to start on impeachment proceedings, put W and Dick in Guantanamo, and let the adults step in and take over.

By Allison

November 7, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

@@, funny you mentioned that. I just saw something like that at Kohl’s last weekend, ridiculous prices hiked up on a buy 1-get another for $1 deal for towels.

By Dusty

November 7, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

Well, I will just wait for the next speech.

I am sure Obama is going to make a…CHANGE…!!! YES!!!!

Soon as January rolls around, he is going to tell us what it is. A BIG CHANGE!! Yes sir, that’s it. No flip flopping here. If he’s said it once, he’ll say it again. THE BIG CHANGE is here, somewhere, out there, over yonder, just about and mighty soon. No more guessing. IT’S CHANGE!!

Thank you, Sen. Obama.

By It's Shake and Bake and I Helped

November 7, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

Hey, Mrs. G, regarding the “instant” VP thing, do you think they just forgot to add the water.

By AmVet

November 7, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

I, for one, am loving this new center-right obsession! Apparently the banal, misused term “conservative” has fallen out of favor with the non-conservative conservatives!

For example, that neolithic numskull Bill Kristol of Faux News says this is a “center-right” nation.

What an idiot. The neo-cons are SO far removed from the center, they couldn’t see it with Sarah Palin’s binoculars.

So who in their right mind would trust them to accurately assess anything of import?

This nation is LIBERAL. It always has been and always will be.

Deal with it losers…

By Tell It Like It Is

November 7, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

Have you Obama bashers not realized that the economy was in bad shape long before now? You seem to know everything else with your onipotence. We need to trust our leaders who are trying to limit the pain.The pain will be very severe. I believe that this is a lot worse than we suspect.

By David

November 7, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

I’m glad to see the old guard didn’t fail my expectations in damning Obama before he’s even in office.

“Real Americans”, my @ss.

By AJC/DNC Management

November 7, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

By Tell It Like It Is November 7, 2008 2:45 PM Have you Obama bashers not realized that the economy was in bad shape long before now?

Yes we do, in fact I believe the Dow was up at 13,000 when Klinton conceded to the Financial Wizard.

It does seem so long ago.

By sunshine and thunder

November 7, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

JAY

Thank goodnes W’s tax cuts added 8 million jobs over the last 7 years.

Hey, I’ve got an idea! Let’s tax every small businessman who dares to increase his workforce.

LOL.

Why is it that when a private company fails it goes out of business, but when a government program fails it gets more money?

By ByteMe

November 7, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

The agency also sharply revised September’s jobless figures, saying that the preliminary estimate of 159,000 jobs lost that month was far off, and there were 284,000 workers tossed into the ranks of the unemployed that month. It revised August estimates of 73,000 job losses to 127,000.

Note to all: today’s number will be revised downward as well. The birth/death model the BLS uses added 7000 jobs in construction to the total. Anyone out there want to defend the concept of 7000 more jobs in construction since last month? I sure don’t. I think when they revise, the 240K will look more like 350K.

By GreenJeans

November 7, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

Mrs G: My favorite new quote is “It takes time to shovel away 8 years of bulldookey.”

Since George W. Bush was also my governor back in Texas, it seems as if I’ve spent over a quarter of my life trying to scrape this bulldookey off my shoes.

By tcoach

November 7, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

I see that there are people complaining about those bashing or commenting against Obama.

There have been 7 post against Obama( I counted mine I knew some would say it was)

While ther have been 10 in favor of Obama and I did not include Jay.

That is 41% and I am sure McCain recieved more than that as his percentage.

So why would anyone expect those who voted for McCain to suddenly forget the reasons they didn’t like Obama?

This is as of 2:47 and there were another 9 post that were not in favor or opposition.

By Bosch

November 7, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Does anybody have any thoughts on whether or not to re-adjust mortgages to reflect the diminished values?

Does anyone think this is good? Bad?

Just curious.

I think traditional “stimulus packages” where you send everybody a check is worthless.

But if you could readjust your mortgage to reflect it’s current value would be good for homeowners and force those who created this mess (banks/mortgag companies) bear some of the responsibility. They are getting taxpayer money to cover some of their losses.

I know that would have consequences, everything does, but I would like to know others opinions who know more about this kind of thing than I.

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 7, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Oh sunshine and thunder

WRONG-O

Bush created 4.8 million jobs while ‘tax and spend’ Clinton created 23 million.

With links to the Dept Of Labor

By Bosch

November 7, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

Nichols found guilty, well duh!

By leni

November 7, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

Used to rush home from school in MA to watch JFK Friday news conferences. Just saw Obama’s .Aaaarrgh! He is no JFK. And that nasty Nancy Reagan crack is way below the dignity of a president. No class!

By AmVet

November 7, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

s & t,

Why is it that when a private company fails it goes out of business, but when a government program fails it gets more money?

What?

Actually, that is extremely hard to square with recent realities given the “socialists” in the White House and on Capitol Hill, wouldn’t you say?

Apparently these “private companies” are not going to be allowed to fail, no matter how criminally and ineptly they were run by the swindlers and speculators.

To the tune of $700 Billion of OUR money.

The Three Principles of Capitalism.

1) If you own it, you control it. But not so for the investors and shareholders of these corporations who have little, if any real say. And certainly no control.

2) You are free to fail. Unless of course if you’re big enough and then you apparently qualify for a “bailout”. Perhaps you missed that part.

3) Capitalism should not coerce/pay off our government to “buy” at giveaway prices our land, our resources and our many assets.

These belong to the people and are for our commonwealth.

The people’s sovereignty is superior to the interests of non-patriotic giant multinationals and their owners - Wall Street.

Those of you on the far right and far left may never open your eyes to the realities of this corporate destruction of capitalism.

But you certainly are going to share in the results…

By sunshine and thunder

November 7, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

MRS GODZILLA

No. Neither Clinton nor Bush created any jobs. Free citizens created all of the jobs (except government jobs) and Clinton’s were dot com bubble jobs that had nothing to do with reality as we found out.

Bush’s jobs, OTOH, were real and permanent. Not created by go go companies with no earnings. I’m sure you will cite some left wing blog with your 4.8 million nonsense but here’s a statistic from the Bureau of Labor Statistics

By MorningStar

November 7, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

Evidentally many who continue to deny this economic mess, fail to read or observe.

It’s easy to sit on the butskins and regurgitate platitudes when one is older than the hills of Bagdad (nothin’ wrong with that), with a retirement check, a disability check, a spouse who works and earns, a trust fund etc. etc.

However, you might try checking your local newspaper to see how many homes are under foreclosure. Within these homes are children who need healthcare, food, clothing, and education.

We’ve BEEN in a recession. So much has been kept under wraps until AFTER the election. Oh, scuse me, I guess Obama, who will not take office until mid Jan. is responsible for this wretched mess we’re in.

I wouldn’t have his job for megabucks. Or perhaps Jimmy Carter is responsible for this mess? LOL!!!!

“CORPORAL” @ 1:18PM….Nope, I’m not on another planet. I’m right here in the good ole U S of A, and I have plenty of friends and family who voted for Obama. They all voted for O because they felt he was the best choice, in lieu of the mess we’re in. I find the problems facing Obama overwhelming. If this man, with his outstanding organizational skills, knowledge, compassion, and obvious extremely high IQ cannot solve this problem, it can’t be solved!!!

PAUL @ 11:54AM. You are correct in that it’s a positive Obama is aware of his shortcomings. We all have them. How many Managers, Supervisors, or anyone in a leadership role regardless of how small, have we known who failed to recognize their shortcomings, and fell into the pitts. Any smart leader surrounds himself/herself with capable people.

The pathetic soul who is afraid of the one more knowledgeable than himself/herself will fall by the wayside. We’ve all known those.

By Leni

November 7, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

@@, aka the otHER MAN, got tHESSEence of my post.

danke

By sunshine and thunder

November 7, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

AMVET

The bailout was a bipartisan action. Seems like I remember the anti bailout crowd being pretty bipartisan also.

What, you know of a government program that has failed and went out of business? Do tell?

And be sure and ask the stockholders of Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Wachovia, IndyMac and Washington Mutual how it feels to get “bailed out”.

By Swami Dave

November 7, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

Bosch:

I think that allowing a “readjustment” to mortgages in light of the current situation might be possible if we set some specific guidelines.

Mortgages are a contract and adherence / support for that relationship needs to be key. The end result of any effort made must be the repayment of principal and interest to the lender. Assuming that as a key principle, we avoid the problems of individuals using the situation to delay payments that they should be making or worse, staying in homes without paying their bills.

That said……

On interest rates, if mortgages are going to be adjusted from the perspective of rates (specifically transitioning the open-ended readjustment at the core of adjustable instruments), they should be readjusted to current rates (possibly some premium as exchange to the lender for their willingness to transition to the fixed instrument). Many of the programs started as “teaser” rates, but these should not be the rates to which they are adjusted. At the core of this problem was mortgages underwritten that the borrowers could have not been expected to repay & we need to prevent this recurrence in the future.

On valuation of the property (and resetting the value to a “current” value - assuming it is lower), this could be allowable under a very specific circumstance. In the event that the mortgage is “revalued”, the reduced principal balance is not forgiven or “shorted”, but instead transitioned to a zero coupon mortgage with some fixed rate of interest that can be paid during closing of a sale.

Essentially, if $50K is “adjusted”, that amount is transitioned to a zero coupon junior lien (no payments required until a closing during a sale or some similar exchange event). If the borrower sells the house in 5 years after which we can expect that appreciation should have occurred, the zero coupon lien is satisfied just like any other encumbrance during closing & the homeowner receives any difference as results on the sale.

And lest anyone choose to start highlighting all the problems and individual situations that have to be addressed….yes, I know. This would not resolve all situations (I understand that), nor would it completely eliminate the opportunity for some to attempt to abuse it.

However, -I- think that it could serve as an initial framework from which a workable plan could be developed. It defines some key principles that we want to achieve as means to address some of the high-level obstacles that we are trying to overcome.

Thoughts anyone?

-Swami Dave

By Mrs. Godzilla

November 7, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

But Sunshine and Thunder

You just said it was the Bush tax cuts not free citizens.

As far as the crazy right wing site you linked to (funny ain’t it) it ain’t telling the truth.

Not yet, anyway.

Here dear

By Bosch

November 7, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

Thanks Swami Dave,

I think something like that is a much better use of money than cutting everybody another check.

By leni

November 7, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

mea culpa, maxima,etc,etc forgot to dele the extra “e”

By AmVet

November 7, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

s & t,

What, you know of a government program that has failed and went out of business? Do tell?

Sorry, I’m missing something here. Can you show me exactly where I ever posited such a stupid notion?

Your assertion “that when a private company fails it goes out of business” is simply incorrect on an enormous scale now.

As I said, accept the realities, or don’t. It matters not to me.

But no matter your choice, I will not give a free pass to all those that turned a blind eye and allowed this crime to happen.

A crime that will never see justice, thanks in large part to Mssrs. Bush and Obama, nor paid for by those gangster capitalists that participated in that “sustained orgy of excess and reckless behavior”.

With OUR money.

By Nickel and dime = Change

November 7, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

Swami Dave - Very insightful and intelligent response. It is possible to accomplish a great deal by resetting the amortization back to original term. Accompanied that with a rate reduction, rather than principal forgiveness, and you help both the borrower and the lender. There were some bad lenders out there, but the borrowers all signed a contract and most (I know not all) knew what they were getting into. The key phrase in your response is “Mortgages are a contract and adherence / support for that relationship needs to be key.” Communication between lender and borrower is paramount. Like you said, it won’t solve every situation out there, but it would solve most.

By sunshine and thunder

November 7, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this

MRS GODZILLA

You wrote:

You just said it was the Bush tax cuts not free citizens.

Think, please, before you post.

Here’s the link to the BLS site and the unemployment rate

You linked me to a PDF of the latest employment report. I’m not arguing that we aren’t facing a recession. I’m maintaining that Bush’s tax cuts helped in adding 8 million new jobs over the last 7 years.

The best way to create jobs and also wealth (all the better to tax you with my dear) is to let free citizens keep their money and be rewarded for their entrepreneurial endeavors.

The current GDP revision was the first shrinkage of that number since the Clinton recession which Bush inherited.

The sub prime crisis was the perfect storm of a combination of loose Federal Reserve policy and government encouragement of Bush’s “ownership society” via FNMA/FHLMC, CRA, lax oversight and revolutionary financial vehicles to create funding.

By Swami Dave

November 7, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

Bosch / Nickel & Dime:

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I agree that sending another check will probably serve minimal purposes. Likewise, setting up the guiding principles that support the framework we are trying to accomplish would be serve attempts to achieve a resolution.

-Swami Dave

By AmVet

November 7, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

…but obviously, a lot of the shelter dogs are mutts like me,” Obama said.

This guys stock just went up a bunch with me!

The difference between the “center-right” crowd and other Americans - we can laugh at ourselves.

By sunshine and thunder

November 7, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

AMVET

Hey, it was you who took issue with my quote. Are you now saying that government allows its programs to fail or that private business can’t fail because it will be bailed out?

Believe me, without the bailout there would have been a run on banks from coast to coast. The entire interbank lending market was frozen. Your money market fund was in dire jeopardy. Is that what you want?

By Midori

November 7, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

LOL, AmVet — I suppose us mutts must stick together :)

(not calling “you” a mutt) :)

By AmVet

November 7, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Midori, Oh I AM a mutt alright! A classic one at that. Part Jewish, part Gentile. Part German, part WASP.

s & t,

Are you now saying that government allows its programs to fail or that private business can’t fail because it will be bailed out?

What is so difficult about comprehending standard written English?

I already answered your first bizarre attempt to speak for me - “What, you know of a government program that has failed and went out of business? Do tell”?. But since it seems to have eluded your acumen, I’ll do so again, Can you show me exactly where I ever posited such a stupid notion?

Can you not grasp that basic answer?

Your assertion “that when a private company fails it goes out of business” is simply incorrect on an enormous scale now.

The only minor change I would add is “Your blanket assertion…” but that does not fundamentally change the salient point.

I will say that you have this penchant for trying to put words in other people’s mouths is a particularly sophomoric ruse.

And a shame as you have some really valid points that I could learn from were it not for that particularly distasteful tactic.

So stop the silly games and we can continue to discuss why that closed-door, backroom “deal” between George W. Bush and the Congressional Democrats, with NO public hearings, is the ultimate insult to the American people.

Or don’t. Again, I don’t much care. I do not suffer fools gladly…

By @@

November 7, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Oh look! AmVet’s feelin’ kinda like………….a little Frisky?

By sunshine and thunder

November 7, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

AMVET

You wrote:

Or don’t. Again, I don’t much care. I do not suffer fools gladly.

Stop with the droopy ears and sad eyes. If you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. YOU came to me with an outrageous claim and I simply was responding. I didn’t realize it was going to cause a dysfunctional misinterpretation from you.

I’m not putting words into anyone’s mouth. I would assume you could speak for yourself. You are trying so valiantly to hold up some sort of face when, in fact, you are avoiding the issue with your platitudes.

We are neither amused nor impressed.

Anytime you want to discuss the issue of government vs. private business approach me in some way other than as a third grader in a playground argument.

Remember, you started this ridiculous conversation and then took it down to your base level. I’m not going to follow you down there.

By AmVet

November 7, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

s & t, the response I expected. (Note that pronoun. Who is the “we” in “we” are neither amused or impressed? See what I mean about your speaking for others? Clearly you believe your argument, as one person, by itself, is insufficient?)

You made a statement. I said it was incorrect. And it is.

End of story…

By TN Gelding

November 7, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

Those revisions are suspicious to me.

Think they might have wanted to hold off the true figures until after the election?

What about an appeal from a joint Bush/Obama video conference with the CEOs of the S&P 500 for a voluntary 6 month moratorium on layoffs? It’s very costly to fire and rehire workers.

These are perilous times that require new thinking, no matter how shallow.

By sunshine and thunder

November 7, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this

You made a statement. I said it was incorrect. And it is.

Sorry AMVET. I’m here to debate the issues, not argue with someone who stomps their feet and claims they’re right no matter what.

I asked you some bonafide questions during our exchange and you have chosen to ignore them.

That tells me that your knowledge of the subject is limited.

Yes. End of story.

By Not to worry

November 7, 2008 11:12 PM | Link to this

Jay, not to worry. For example, from your posting - “…those are Americans with children to feed and mortgages to pay and hospital bills to worry about…”.

Soon Obama’s wealth redistribution aka tax cut will go into effect and the sun will be brighter, the air will smell cleaner, birds will be chirping, etc….courtesy of the true tax payers!!!

By TN Gelding

November 7, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this

You true tax payers are paying for some of the guns.

The rest of us are paying for some of the butter.

And we’re borrowing at least a trillion dollars this fiscal year to cover paying for the rest of both.