Jay Bookman

By Mrs. Godzilla

September 12, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

Jesus wept.

By Chris

September 12, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

These are the same folks who were against the abolition of slavery and the civil rights movement.

By Truth

September 12, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

I just ask God to forgive you Jay because you know not what you say or do. You should know where these comments are gonna go.

By TW

September 12, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

Being that reason starts with the truth, and today’s ‘Evangelical’ has no problem being led with mistruth, how is one to conclude any kind of a pattern or deduce any kind of logic at all? It is painfully obvious that today’s rightwinger has not only destroyed the Republican Party, but they have seriously soiled the Church as well.

By Swami Dave

September 12, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Jay:

This probably just highlights the fact that many people respond in knee-jerk fashions to most any question or issue. They have rarely thought out the situations from a philosophical / moral / ethical framework.

I suspect that you could get a similar divergence if you asked college students the same question and then rephrased the subsequent one with the caveat that the to-be-tortured individual “knew” the details of an immediate terrorist attack.

I would say that we agree that there is alot of “meat on the bone”, but I suspect that the biggest “chewing” could be focused on the fact that too many (right / left / middle / red / blue / moderate) rarely question why they believe or do anything. They instead just instinctively respond to situations as they arise (a poor model for how to navigate through life - in my opinion).

-Swami Dave

By CJ

September 12, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Actually this is good news to me.

Of course, the capacity for and the application of empathy is the prerequisite to the golden rule. I had come to the conclusion that nearly all among the Christian right simply lacked such capacity. However, it appears that some of them, at least, just need to be reminded from time to time. Good to know.

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

Well, gee, Jay, what do you expect from people who think that God is some kind of Zeus like old guy who sits on a golden throne - somewhere in the sky and sends people that he doesn’t like, or who don’t bow down and worship him to a fire pit where they can roast in eternal misery.

So, to them, waterboarding or whatever doesn’t seem so bad.

By Cooljay

September 12, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

All you can conclude from the poll of the evangelical right is that the poll results rely entirely on how a question is phrased, and who the respondants are.

Polls are all nonsense. People act in their own self interests. If sending electricity through an AL QUeda operative’s gonads will stop the next 911, then I say the red wire goes on the positive terminal, and the black wire goes on the negative terminal, and the golden rule be damned.

‘muff said

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

Woops forgot this part to my 2:55:

Logic isn’t necessarily the evangelicals’ strong point.

By thefishermen

September 12, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

Yes.., I too fail to love my brother as myself 9 out of 10 times. Thank God for Jesus.

By Taxpayer

September 12, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

Jay,

I see you have been on a roll. I guess I shouldn’t take such long lunch breaks — Not. Now, I’m two topics behind. Anyway,

Republicans think that torture is justified all the time. Hence our subjection to the likes of McCain and Palin as replacements for the failures of the Republican party for the last two terms, Bush and Cheney.

By Truth

September 12, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this

See Jay…. Bosch has already started.

By JAY BOOKMAN

September 12, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

So Truth, I need to be forgiven by God for opening the door to Bosch’s comment? I need your prayers for that?

By Swami Dave

September 12, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

One question Jay:

Was the focus of this post the philosophical / moral / ethical attitudes toward torture or a discussion of how people think (or dont)?

…or was it how apparently a number of people interpreted it as “evidence” that white, southern evangelicals are idiots, hypocrites, or both?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but from many of the posts so far, I do know where their attitudes lie.

Just so everyone knows, I will be watching for Jay’s response so feel free to answer on his behalf only if your fingers need the exercise. I probably won’t read it.

-Swami Dave

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

Truth,

I’m not calling anyone names - I’m just saying that evangelicals are void of logic.

Can you tell me where heaven is? What about hell?

Because if you can explain the location of those two places in a logical manner, I’m ready to listen.

By Markkens

September 12, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

Often, the justification for “torture” is to obtain information someone is unwilling to divulge.

I have no problem with applying psychological pressure.

I do have a problem with physical damage.

Waterboard ‘em, don’t let ‘em sleep, but leave their fingernails alone.

By thefishermen

September 12, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

There is meaning to Jay’s columns, our lives, and yes, this day.

We’re just a flash in the cosmic pan of mere chance. Torture, Jay’s opinion of it, and yes, even the sun in the sky above us all have no meaning whatsoever.

It still takes faith to believe either one..

By man

September 12, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

Just a few things that we have washed our hands of so to speak, by letting the government do our work - good and bad.

By AJC/DNC Management

September 12, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

Define “torture” please.

By jasper

September 12, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

Bosch - Heaven is about 45 minutes southwest of Greenville, SC. Hell is just below Columbia, SC, seperated by a screen door.

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Truth,

Forgot - of course my comments are in my opinion only - I don’t guess you’ve noticed, I’m not much into name calling (although I like to tease Dusty sometimes - but she always gets me back).

I happen to be a Christian.

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

Truth,

Forgot - of course my comments are in my opinion only - I don’t guess you’ve noticed, I’m not much into name calling (although I like to tease Dusty sometimes - but she always gets me back).

I happen to be a Christian.

By Truth

September 12, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

Jay…. Bosch…. I am not a perfect person by any means. I don’t fully understand every bit of christianity. I do “feel” that Jay created a topic the he knew people would give people the forum to ridicule God. I am not trying to start an argument because all that would do is push you two further away from Him and His word. Just know that God and the whole Heaven/Hell thing is hard to understand… beyond our comprehension as human beings. That is why it is called faith. Please know that no matter what, God still loves both of you!

By Taxpayer

September 12, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

Jay,

I scanned the referenced paper and I did not notice what the form of torture was that these evangelically religious ones were commenting on. Maybe it doesn’t matter to them but I would want to know if it takes the form of watching another state of the union from Bush, reading another one of Hindu Dave’s most eloquent dissertations, etc. Whatever form it was, I’m sure it was something that they simply could not tolerate as Christians.

By jasper

September 12, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

Just below my fish symbol, I have this bumper sticker,

“I’d rather be Waterboarding”

By getalife wingnuts

September 12, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

Torture is a war crime and should be prosecuted.

Just another blatant example, like stolen freedoms, of how obl has won and changed our country.

wingnuts have lost the ability to determine right from wrong.

Evil doers, if you will. Its a sin.

By Swami Dave

September 12, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this

Interesting Bosch.

I suspect that we can interpret your postulate as “reality as defined by what we know”.

That is a dangerous theory indeed since, by definition, our knowledge has been, is, and (I suspect) always will be limited.

Most Americans can’t tell you where Afganistan or Belize are, but both exist.

Glad your willing to listen though. smile

-Swami Dave

By Ray

September 12, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

Those honest, loving, accepting Christians

By Dennis

September 12, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

As a non-Christian (non-religious) white southerner, I submit that most of us would not agree on exactly what constitutes torture. One person’s harsh questioning tactics are another’s torture.

However, we can all agree that there are plenty of governments, quasi-governments, and members of certain religions who hand out torture daily. Often to the innocent. They whip people with canes, they stone women to death, they circumsize young girls against their will, they cut off the heads of their announced enemies and they strap bombs to children and send them into crowds to die. All the time saying we have the right to practice our religion.

After doing all this, these same creatures cry torture when someone strips them down to their underware, or pours water up their nose.

Give me a break.

By getalife wingnuts

September 12, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

And how in the world can they call themselves pro life and warmonger?

Bombing innocent babies is not pro life.

Its post term abortion.

By Swami Dave

September 12, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

Glad to be entertaining you Taxpayer! My wife might consider listening to my “eloquent dissertations” torture too! LOL

-SD

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

Swami Dave,

You can interpret it however you want. That’s your right as a human being.

You’re right - our knowledge has it’s limits and the past, when man didn’t know something, they filled that void of knowledge with superstition and “god’s doing.”

If you look at Jesus Christ - a simple country rabbi, who preached that everyone was equal and deserving of “God’s love” - I’m sorry, but I do not see how anyone could interpret that basic message of Christianity and twist it into that it’s okay to torture some of the ones we don’t like.

By thefishermen

September 12, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

The is a hint of heaven and hells location in the Parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man..

In Hades, where he was being tormented, the rich man looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. He called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.’ But Abraham said, …. Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us. ‘”

But Jesus said it best in John 3:12..

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Oh, and Swami,

That “interesting theory” from earlier is called transcendentalism.

By getalife wingnuts

September 12, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

Well Dennis,

The ones that submitted to “pouring water up their noses” stated it was torture and never want our troops to be waterboarded.

Sad you do.

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

Dennis,

Yet how many Christians here in this country think it’s okay to allow the homeless to wonder the streets mumbling to themselves, or make someone chose between getting treated for an illness or going bankrupt.

Or letting an elderly person have to chose between medication and electricity, or better yet, food.

Oh, I forget, they are all just losers.

By RW-(the original)

September 12, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure why Jay didn’t lump in the 16% that said rarely justified since they’re still justifying something. What they’re justifying I have no idea since “torture” isn’t defined and I didn’t even see the actual questions that were asked.

Why is it that on a near daily basis we’re given one set of data supported by a link, although in this case a very poor one, that’s contrasted against some other set of data that isn’t supported by a link?

Not only don’t I know what they’re calling torture, I’m not even sure what makes someone an evangelical.

Do you think they put enough caveats at the bottom of this survey?

The margin of error for the total sample is +/- 4.5% at the 95% confidence interval. In addition to sampling error surveys may also be subject to error or bias due to question wording, context and order effects. The data was weighted using demographic weighting parameters derived from the Religious Landscape Survey

By getalife wingnuts

September 12, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

5 Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong And why there should be no exceptions.

By Truth

September 12, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

Bosch… It isnt that it is ok. In fact “Christians” are some of the most charitable people in the world. We cant help everyone and many of those people made choices in their lives that have put them where thay are today. Listen, I am not where I want to be in life, but I know that choices that I have made throughout my life had led me to where I am. It is my job to make the changes to better my life. Mine and only mine.

By Apostled

September 12, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

Torture? Jesus was tortured, scouraged, strung up, and forced to carry a cross, subject to the taunts of the average person who happened to be watching the parade as Jesus carried his cross.

I’ll bet corporal duhng would have had a field day against Jesus, the rebel, with all his Rush Limbaugh dittohead copycat moronisms that he tortures anyone dumb enough to read anything he writes with.

Torture is the human way. That was the point of Jesus’s life: to show us being ourselves with our monkey awareness of justice and righteousness concerning a man who spoke in parables and talked about love, but who lacked the common street smarts of self-serving fools, thieves and tyrants.

I tell you all this day: God gets more worship out of a rock being a rock than any of your shouted prayers and grand tithings!!

Behold thyselves, Andung, corporal, glenn and all who blog on the right: Behold thy destiny in HELLLLLLLLLL!!!!

By **"The Corporal"**

September 12, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this

Jay

This is for all of you pristine novices out there who have never been involved in this sort of thing ………. kind of like you guys who badmouth the quarterback and you have never thrown a pass in a game in your life ………

As an evangelical Christian I am against torture but you throw out the word without defining it ………..

For example:

1) Once in Vietnam I had to guard two Viet Cong “suspects” all night. We put them in an enclosed barbed wire fence where they huddled down for the night. That would not have been “torture” but I went and got them a canteen of water, some C-Rats and a blanket anyway. They took it but would probably have killed me the first chance they got ……….

2) What I went through during USMC boot camp in 1966 (not to mention escape and evasion training when I got caught could be defined as torture. I personally think the terrorist prisoners in our control have it better than I had in boot camp and certainly compared to what I endured in the leech infested jungle in Vietnam.

3) That said: torture must be defined. If you are talking sleep deprivation, psychological/drug methods, living in a hot tent, lousy food, etc. (been there done that) - bring it on - especially if it saves lives.

If you are talking specific physical pain, beatings, waterboarding, etc., etc., then that’s where I personally draw the line.

4) Bottom Line - you don’t coddle prisoners but there is a line you don’t cross either.

P.S. A barking, snarling German Sheppard dog in front of a prisoner is NOT necessarily torture. Depends on the circumstance and reason.

War is Hell

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

Truth,

Oh, okay, they didn’t PLAN well, so screw them.

So, I guess these people:

“They whip people with canes, they stone women to death, they circumsize young girls against their will, they cut off the heads of their announced enemies and they strap bombs to children and send them into crowds to die”

Well, they could have moved, right? Why do they stay in situations where this could happen to them? Sounds like poor planning to me.

By ByteMe

September 12, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

I think the survey just shows that as humans we can keep two separate and conflicting thoughts in our heads and reconcile them when we need to, but hold onto both thoughts tightly and separately when we don’t want to reconcile them.

Example: abortion and the death penalty. It’s consistent to be PRO both or ANTI both, but not PRO one and not the other and yet you’ll find a large majority of people who are PRO one and ANTI the other. The ones who are PRO one and ANTI the other will use tortured logic to justify their position, but the reality is that death is death (or not, depending on which one you’re PRO) and the justifications are just your way to reconcile two conflicting ideas.

By Truth

September 12, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

“The Corporal” …. AMEN

By hussein smith

September 12, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

I don’t think Jay deserves the criticism that he posted this because he wanted to ridicule God. The post isn’t about God, but those who CLAIM to obey his teachings and speak for Him. A Christian with a closed mind probably won’t stay a real Christian for long. If we think our God thinks torture’s OK, chances are the other side will too. A Christian who accuses God of bringing war isn’t worthy of calling herself a Christian — or vice president.

By T

September 12, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

Oh, no. I agree with the Corporal. If you need info thats going to save lives begging pretty please might not work.

By getalife wingnuts

September 12, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

GFY (Good for you) “private”:

If you are talking specific physical pain, beatings, waterboarding, etc., etc., then that’s where I personally draw the line.

Its a war crime and has been prosecuted before.

Do you think they should be held accountable for this war crime?

By GodHatesTrash

September 12, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Good to see someone finally addressing the real issue of this election - the dark soul of the American voter.

The Southern Baptist cult was started because other Baptists renounced slavery, but the Southern Baptists loved slavery, dehumanizing other human beings. They loved beating, torturing and, especially, raping their fellow humans, so they split from the northern Baptists.

Their ‘religion’ is merely a collection of primitive and stupid superstition. Blood and violence and, especially, the enslavement of the human mind by ignorance remains central to membership in their cult. Many Southern Baptist preachers are proud members of KKK, even in the 21st century. Disgusting. Other evangelical denominations share the Southern Baptist history of segregation, violence, and stupidity marketed as religious belief.

These devils mock Jesus Christ every time they say His name.

No matter who is elected in November, these devils will still be with us….

By N-GA

September 12, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

Jay,

Please close this thread down now! It’s only a matter of time before the uber-nationalists who post here start fantasizing about torture.

Wasn’t Torquemada a Christian?

Wasn’t Mengele a Christian?

There are a couple of posters here who would jump at the chance to play grand inquisitor at Guantanamo.

Jay…you KNOW who they are!

By Taxpayer

September 12, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

Now, how many of you out there were subjected to tortures as a child in Church?

“Sit still and pay attention and don’t make me take you outside,” mom said. “Yes ma’am,” I replied. “Stop it…No, you stop it…No, you,” we teased.
Ker THUMP, went the Bible right down over my head followed by my brother and two sisters. “I SAID QUIET,” mom loudly whispered, and we knew from the tone that it was our last chance to endure one form of torture before another even worse form would be dished out — and it was our choice.

By mike hussein smith

September 12, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

Gosh, Corporal, turning softie in your old age? Your discourse on torture wasn’t scary like I thought it would be. But the United States has ascribed to the Geneva Conventions, which — thanks to the handy prompt from Getalife — states that: “no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment.” Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention (1949) asserts that “no physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war,” and “persons taking no active part in the hostilities … shall in all circumstances be treated humanely.” Waterboarding is a means of coersion, plain and simple. (And please don’t bore us with the Gonzo argument that “enemy combatants” are not included under the Conventions.)

By Truth

September 12, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

GodHatesTrash…. I go to a Souther Baptist Church and guess what…. It is full of whites and blacks. And no matter what hate you preach here on this blog, we all still love you! ;)

By RW-(the original)

September 12, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

Oh no Jay, shut down your discussion board before someone tries to discuss things on it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Example: abortion and the death penalty. It’s consistent to be PRO both or ANTI both, but not PRO one and not the other and yet you’ll find a large majority of people who are PRO one and ANTI the other

ByteMe,

That’s ridiculous. On one side we’re talking about an innocent life being snuffed out before they ever had the opportunity to walk the earth and on the other we’re talking about administering the death penalty to someone that had the opportunity to walk the earth and chose to become a felon of the worst possible kind.

By Paul

September 12, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

Bosch 2:55

I have it on good authority that Zeus is not an old guy.

This is not meant as a diversion, but more of an illustration when comparing the more ‘conservative’ elements of two groups: ever seen poll results taken from Mideast populations on if killing those who don’t believe as they believe, or insult the God they believe in is justified? Surprisingly, the answer is ‘zero.’ You read that right – ‘zero.’ Because to fundamentalist Moslems, it isn’t justified – it’s required! And if the killing involves torture, more’s the better!

Couple of ways to speculate (‘cause that’s all it is). First guess is, I think Swami Dave is onto something in his first paragraph at 2:43. Second is, to the extent evangelicals are similar to fundamentalists in their treatment of scripture, they may have difficulty in reconciling absolute statements with the conditions of life. Of course, same is true of those who aren’t of that faith – nothing personal, Mrs. Godzilla, but it appears to me that is illustrated by your response (heartfelt tho it may be) at 2:35.

Bosch, this may sound flip – but bear with me. If certain procedures my son went through, without anesthesia, by the way, were necessary to save his life, is it moral to forgo those same procedures on someone so the lives of thousands could be saved? (the ticking bomb scenario addressed by Dershowitz in his book “Why terrorism works”). Ramirez did a great political cartoon – a certain politician addressing a crowd and saying “I promise never to pour water up someone’s nose for 30 seconds to save thousands of lives.”

Another speculation is responses change when the action is personalized, not abstract. In any event, Jay sure knows how to keep those counter numbers up!

Now let’s ask the same question to other groups – agnostics, atheists, pick your religion or lack thereof. Or do we assume they have higher moral reasoning than evangelicals and so the responses would differ significantly?

Your 3:19

You may want to ask Obama. I believe Church of Christ is fundamentalist. And from their growth, pretty evangelical, too.

AJC/DNC Mnagement 3:25

[[Define “torture” please.]]

According to the Democratic majority and President Bush, it’s any means to obtain information not specifically listed in the Army Manual for Interrogations.

Bosch 3:46

[[If you look at Jesus Christ - a simple country rabbi]]

Are you saying Jesus was…. Jewish?!!?

Your 3:53

[[Oh, I forget, they are all just losers.}}

That’s right, ‘cause God loves a winner!

We’re on a tag-team roll, today.

[[Well, they could have moved, right? Why do they stay in situations where this could happen to them? Sounds like poor planning to me.]]

Let’em pull themselves up by their bootstraps!

TGIF

By WillM

September 12, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

Define ‘evengelical’ please.

By Magenta

September 12, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

Swami Dave said: This probably just highlights the fact that many people respond in knee-jerk fashions to most any question or issue. They have rarely thought out the situations from a philosophical / moral / ethical framework.

How very true! In high school in the 1970s, a friend of mine and I were discussing a hot item in the news: “Do you approve of abortion?” We both answered yes because we identified ourselves as feminists and that was the “correct” answer.

“Do you approve of birth control?” We both answered no, because the lower middle-class suburbanites we actually were “knew” that any girl who uses birth control has to be a slut!

Digging deeper almost always reveals more, and it’s fascinating.

By Paul

September 12, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

N-GA

I’m kinda interested to read how many address the issue (ascribing to a philosophy with tenets on personal behavior, who are willing to seemingly violate those tenets, or change their attitudes based upon personal involvement).

But I’m also kinda guessing most of the responses will be to describe actions and justify or condemn them.

By Bosch

September 12, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this

Paul,

For an old guy, Zeus sure did get around didn’t he?

What was it I said the other day? Something like “fundamentalism ruins everything!”

I still believe that.

Jesus was Jewish? Oh yeah, he was! GASP!

I’d like to respond a little more but duty calls.

Have a good weekend and stay dry!

By AJC/DNC Management

September 12, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

You capture some Islamic terrorist like God’sTrash and you find documents on this scumbag that describe a place for a group to meet, assemble a bomb and drive to an undisclosed location to explode it. The time for the meeting is noon that day and you captured this filthy maggot at 10:30 a.m.

Kisses for the maggot?

By Taxpayer

September 12, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

All this talk about abortions and death penalties and justifications for killing just leads to all sorts of interesting thoughts. Of course, my all time favorite is dropping a bomb on some innocent civilian’s head. BOOM. Didn’t see that one coming. I guess that form of killing is OK as long as no one calls it terrorism — just call it collateral damage or God’s will being done through his disciples.

By Paul

September 12, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Bosch

Have a good weekend!

A thought before you go: from Dick Morris’s latest column:

[[For two weeks, Democrats and their media allies have leveled scorching fire at Sarah Palin. It’s not having much effect, but they keep at it anyway.

The latest Fox News poll shows Palin with a 54-27 favorable/unfavorable ratio, which compares well with Barack Obama’s 57-36, John McCain’s 60-33 and Joe Biden’s 51-29. (Of the four, she’s the most popular).]]

What’s that definition of ‘insanity’ again? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Stay dry!

By getalife wingnuts

September 12, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Here is some video from by back yard of Hurricane Ike

By ByteMe

September 12, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

RW: Not ridiculous at all, and as I pointed out, you’ve gone and used your own tortured logic to try to reconcile the two positions. Death is death, it’s as simple as that. Doesn’t matter whether it’s a fetus or a full-grown human. It’s still death and the taking of a human life.

You’re not alone in your justifications, by the way. Doesn’t make the justifications less ridiculous, but it does mean you have a lot of company.

By Truth

September 12, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

Whith all of this religious talk I feel the need to ask forgivness before I go up to the North Ga mountians for an all weekend bachelor party. Lord, please forgive me. Nobody is perfect…

By Dusty

September 12, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

Well, what is this? Jay Bookman’s Sunday School lesson? Is Bookman a Christian? Why is he bringing in ‘“Christians” and not muslims, Buddists, Hindus,etc??

That’s not hard to tell. Majority of Republicans are “Christians”. As to “Evangelicals”, all Christians are supposed to be evangelical. Go into the world and preach the gospel. That is an admonition to all followers of Christ.

Ah but the question is TORTURE which ranges from reading Bookman’s editorials to being burned at the stake.

Wartime torture if against all rules of our military. Punishment follows the failure to follow those rules. A very few of our military are now serving prison time for breaking regulations.

Under what circumstances would a Christian allow or perform torture?THAT IS THE QUESTION. I can’t imagine NOT torturing if it would save my family or perhaps millions of people. I hope I am NEVER faced with such a choice.

Christian view on torture? It is an abomination from Hell. If you want to know more about it, ask McCain. Perhaps Bookman would find that an interesting subject on which to elaborate..the story of a brave man, tortured for serving his country.

By N-GA

September 12, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

Paul,

Perhaps this issue should be debated in the context of “What would Jesus do?”.

By mike hussein smith

September 12, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

That’s an angry-looking sky, Getalife. Hope things don’t get too rough for you.

By N-GA

September 12, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

McCain is the mother of all flip-floppers

By GodHatesTrash

September 12, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

While employed by an international agency operating out of Northern Virginia, I had the opportunity to participate in information gathering sessions with several foreign nationals in various countries around the world.

While these sessions were often held in secure facilities, and our guests were often initially non-cooperative, never once did we even use restraints.

In fact, I participated in a quite congenial meeting at a lovely French restaurant in Istanbul with a gentleman who had been high up with a competitive organization based out of Bucharest. We showed him some pictures we had been able to gather of other members of his organization at their homes. This made him quite garrulous and he gave us lots of very useful information that we were able to use to abruptly reduce his organization’s number of active employees, with no collateral damage. We enjoyed our wine and the escargot, and the beautiful Beirut women…

But this kind of work is not work for cowboys, or crazies, or paranoid ex-military types, for sure, although many of my associates had DOD or DOD-related experience. No, most of the fine people I worked with were fellow Ivy Leaguers, several cuts above the norm.

It is difficult to explain the fine work we did within this organization to the less educated and the provincial, so I won’t say any more here. I did have a lot of fun, having first worked there during the Carter years, and then again during the 1990s - on my last assignment, gathering competitive information for my employer in Southeast Asia, I played a German sex tourist, making several 6-8 week trips over a period of years. It was fun!

I will say that, proudly, my unit never made a mistake. We did what we did with NO collateral damage, and with NO fanfare. Whenever possible, we sought to discredit our competition, not eliminate it. One gentleman with strong fundamnentalist ties was quite surprised when the local gendarmes found a stash of kiddie porn in his Madras bungalow. A young Iranian in Damascus got in big trouble when his higher ups were presented with pictures of the young man getting busy with a male British tourist. Photoshopping, in the days before photoshop…

(I would think, if torture worked, that after torturing people for seven years and a day, that someone would have coughed up Osama by now.

But they haven’t.

Damn cowboys. But gathering intelligence has never been a redneck strong suit, has it?)

By getalife wingnuts

September 12, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

mike,

Its been like that all day long but starting to pick up some major gusts.

I will post another before dark.

By Taxpayer

September 12, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

Republicans of today remind me too much of the dentist in Marathon Man.

By TW

September 12, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

Jay - I’m kind of surprised that the percentage of those saying it was rarely or never justified went up after injecting the Golden Rule. Seems to me like it would go down amongst the self righteous, being that they have done nothing worthy of torture - so what if it happens to someobody else? Unless, the presence of skeletons in closets rattled their cages.

By Paul

September 12, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

N-GA

[[Perhaps this issue should be debated in the context of “What would Jesus do?”.]]

Then the debate would be over.

By Dusty

September 12, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

Interesting story, GHT, but what you pictured is called blackmail. What’s it got to do with a Christian’s view on terror? Blackmail may be a form of torture but I don’t think the Inqusition would have bothered with it.

Uh oh. Next Bookman will be saying “This aint no Inquisition” while the media “tortures” Sarah Palin. Yes indeed. What is the liberal view on torturing Sarah Palin?????

By GodHatesTrash

September 12, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this

The Golden Rule added to the mix is interesting, but makes sense if you understand redneck psyche.

Being raised in abuse-filled homes, worshipping a phony abusive version of god and steeped in an overall culture of violence and abuse, they think torturing and abusing others makes them more like their parents, and, disgustingly, more god-like.

Their god kicks asses, takes names, he is a redneck Vishnu, the destroyer.

These people want a bloodbath and the end of the world.

By jasper

September 12, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this

Gotta go libbies. Closing thought of the day.

If you’re 20 and a conservative, you don’t have a heart. If you’re 50 and a liberal, you don’t have a brain.

By TW

September 12, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

If you’re 20 and a conservative, you don’t have a heart. If you’re 50 and a liberal, you don’t have a brain.

• unless you have kids, in which case it kind of puts a damper on that whole rightwing ‘give the future the finger’ business…

By Ray

September 12, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

The Corporal mentions his RVN experiences with the VC and it rings a bell. I would often watch a Huey rise into the air with two VC in the pod. When the copter got about 500 ft above the ground, you could see one of the VC being thrown out of the side door and make a rather long trip to the ground with a decided splat. It was often an incentive for the other one to talk. Saved a lot of American lives.

By AJC/DNC Management

September 12, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

al-Gitmo: Why don’t you put down the doobie and paint your fence?

~~~~~

Well, well, look at the brave hearted liberals, they have the mealy mouth tough talk for Christians, that’s for sure, but remain eerily silent when faced with the difficult scenarios.

These are the same chicken hearts that would close their windows on the screams of some little old lady getting raped by gangbangers on the street below but would then pound their chests at the cops when they showed up to stomp on the gangbangers.

Such courage.

Cowards all.

And yes, I thank God that you spineless wonders are not the ones protecting this great nation.

By Dusty

September 12, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

Paul,

You might also ask “Would Jesus save one and lose millions of others by doing it?”

Losing yourself is sacrificial. I don’t know about saving one thus losing millions.

This question is not new. Truman decided losing two Japanese cities was the sacrifice to save millions of American troops. Was he wrong? I don’t think Truman was ever totally satisfied with his decision.

By RW-(the original)

September 12, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this

ByteMe,

I disagree.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) — Saudi Arabia’s top judiciary official has issued a religious decree saying it is permissible to kill the owners of satellite TV networks that broadcast immoral content.

By AJC/DNC Management

September 12, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this

Good one, RW, the very people that the wormy liberals propagandize for.

By Dusty

September 12, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this

GHT,5:22

Let’s put it this way. YOU LIE. There is no redneck psyche except in your head. Don’t place your warped gangland philosophy on the South. It dwells in the minds of people like you. It is not geographical.

Maybe you will grow up or recover one of these days. But I am afraid that you are too far GONE.

By getalife wingnuts

September 12, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

Andy,

Treated lumber and Gustav painted that fence. They don’t paint fences down here.

RW,

Our friends the Saudis.

Geez.

By N-GA

September 12, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

Paul,

It doesn’t take long for the “convenient” Christians start questioning Jesus’ teachings. That darn book just doesn’t take into account “conditions on the ground”.

By Paul

September 12, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this

Dusty

I get a bit uncomfortable with the entire ‘what would Jesus do?” scenario. I see Him operating on a different level - and don’t presuppose to even guess at what He would do. I have a difficult enough time being concerned with what I would do.

By RW-(the original)

September 12, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

getalife,

Actually the Saudis that are more friendly with us include the ones that would be the target of that fatwa.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Barack Obama flings a memorial rose at Ground Zero like he’s a kid tossing pennies into a fountain at the shopping mall — or a spectator tossing flowers at a bullfight.

I just saw the cover of the AJC-Fishwrapper edition. Apparently they are as clueless as Barry over there. I think the cover photo is the same as the first one at the link.

By Paul

September 12, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this

Pleasant weekend, all -

By "The Corporal"

September 12, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

To Mike Hussein Smith

1) Sorry, but they are not really “prisoners that fall under the Geneva Convention”. Why? Their out of uniform.

During WWII’s Battle of the Bulge, German soldiers were caught “out of uniform” and in U.S. uniforms posing as M.P.’s to subvert our troop movements.

Eisenhower had them all shot the very next day without any trial, hearing or ACLU representation…….. :o)

Terrorists do not represent the armed forces of any country and therefore whatever we decide to do to be nice or not is up to us …………

2) Here is an intersting Bible verse that I believe applies here.

Hosea 8:7 “They sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.”

Terrorists sow and what they reap is what they deserve.

By "The Corporal"

September 12, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this

P.S.

Somewhere up above someone mentioned some very evil people from history and opined that they were Christians.

Well, not necessarily.

Jesus said, Not everyone who calls Me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

By Ray

September 12, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

Bottom line…..

Most of you who are posting on this blog have never been out of a safe environment, especially one where people are shooting at you. It changes your perspective somewhat. Most are interested in just getting home intact and if any information can be gotten, sometimes by most any means, it makes getting home intact more of a reality. It is easy for some to judge from an armchair or a TV set but when reality hits you in the butt everything changes. There is no Christian perspective, no ACLU spin, no reading of someone’s rights, just self preservation.

By "The Corporal"

September 12, 2008 7:37 PM | Link to this

To Ray

Truer words were never spoken. We have many opiners but few who have seen the elephant.

Semper Fi

By @@

September 12, 2008 7:37 PM | Link to this

Easy enough Jay. You would be the first one to argue that taxes are levied to provide for the greater good. The scriptures clearly state that it must be so:

Romans 13:1 “Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God.”

Now! On to torture:

Deuteronomy 25:1 “If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.”

Deuteronomy 25:2 “And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.”

God knows what exists within the heart of the individual. If the motives are just, then so is the individual in God’s eyes.

That’s why I have a big problem with abortion on demand.

We each stand alone before God in his judgment.

By @@

September 12, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this

Oops! one more thing Jay.

That’s why our leaders seek to define torture. Once the definition is clear, it becomes accepted practice or “law” if you will. Individuals may, however, have differing opinions. It’s their prerogative, but not legal in the definition.

By "The Corporal"

September 12, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

On a slightly related subject I heard today that ZerObama was making fun of McCains internet skills.

I wonder if ZerObama has ever tried to land a fighter jet, on a carrier, at night, in choppy seas and bad weather ………….Oh, this is too laughable !!

By RealityKing

September 12, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

If my brothers should suspect that I am building, using, or training others in terror techinques to kill innocence. Then I fully expect them to torture me until they are confident that I and all my terrorist friends no longer remain a threat, even if that means my death. Just as I would do to them..

By Ray

September 12, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

Arm chair warriors easily jump to criticize what is proper and what we expect from those that do, not those that sit. Those that sit have a spin like a lot of libs in telling others what is appropriate but not wanting to participate in the reality of conflict and it’s consequences. Bookman can easily pose irrelevant questions about fantasy scenarios but he has never gotten out from behind a desk at AJC, which alone, blunts his perspective. Have you ever served, Jay? If you have, I will retract all that I have said to your behalf. But if not, you are as full of sh* as most of you armchair warriors who do not have a clue about how life is really lived in harms way. McCain is a good example of a good man who has proven his merit, whether he liked it or not. He has his warts but he is a saint compared to all of the whiners, misfits, hangers on and just plain sh*s on this blog. You should all be half as good as this man. Then maybe you would understand what a real man is all about.

By GodHatesTrash

September 12, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this

Now Corporal, Hensley-McCain was not much of a pilot - he managed to destroy 5 of the taxpayers’ planes during his naval career.

By GodHatesTrash

September 12, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

The Corporal mentions his RVN experiences with the VC and it rings a bell. I would often watch a Huey rise into the air with two VC in the pod. When the copter got about 500 ft above the ground, you could see one of the VC being thrown out of the side door and make a rather long trip to the ground with a decided splat. It was often an incentive for the other one to talk. Saved a lot of American lives.

Senator Hensley-McCain is grateful that a psychopath like you wasn’t on his interrogation team.

By Ray

September 12, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this

Trash,

You are a perfect example of someone who have never done much of anything for this country other than complain and criticize those who have made great sacrifice. Doesn’t it bother you to be such a suck a** do nothing complainer? People like you deserve a place in hell. Wonder how you would have faired in the Hilton? I can only guess.

By "The Corporal"

September 12, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this

To GodHatesTrash

Here is an interesting passage from the best book about Vietnam I have ever read (Once a Warrior King by David Donovan):

“I have the sense from time to time that I am not alone, and I suspect that despite the limited understanding we have of events in distant places, there will always be those among us who have the gleam of the quest in their eyes. They are people of every sex and station and the yearn to be challenged to a cause. They will always be looking for that wrong to right, that ill to cure, that song to sing; and there will always be those who will go to arms in aid of the helpless and the downtrodden. Ignoring the political issues of the moment, these people will champion the weak and the poor in the face of evil and tyranny. And no matter what the outcome, in their romantic hearts they will always keep the secret, if secret it must be, that they are better men for having held the lamp beside the golden door”.

I don’t expect you to understand this but what makes me feel good about this country is that people like Senator McCain and myself were willing to give our lives for people like you to have the right to be the ungrateful jerks you are. Sounds funny but true.

But that’s o.k. Continue to be who you are. In a weird sort of way it validates and makes what we did even more meaningful to us.

Someday I hope you will come around.

God bless ………..

By sunshine and thunder

September 12, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this

TO: JAY

Actually this is a sick thread from a sick wing nut.

No one wants to use torture just like I’m sure you would claim that no one wants to steal money from those who are productive and give it to those who aren’t.

Yet you would vote first for people who would do that for the greater good.

Am I wrong?

Torture, as it is practiced by America, does not rob one of life or limb.

But the greater good is served if it saves lives.

Right?

By GodHatesTrash

September 12, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this

You greatly exaggerate your place in the grand scheme of things, Corporal.

The North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong were never ever a threat to me or my country. A few million Vietnamese people ended up dead as collateral damage to our misguided, mismanaged attempt to ‘save’ them. And some 58,000 Americans also died during this fiasco.

(It was a stupid war, fought horrifically stupidly. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig.)

That “gleam” in your eye is pure insanity and bloodlust, plain and simple.

It must truly suck to live in your world of paralyzing fear and fantasy/insanity.

By "The Corporal"

September 13, 2008 12:00 AM | Link to this

To GodHatesTrash

“If there was immorality in the war in Vietnam, it was that a democratic nation called her citizens to war, had them killed by the tens of thousands, and then, like a faithless lover, turned and scorned the survivors. Oh, perfidious nation!”

History and our Maker will judge between you and I.

I sincerely wish you well …….. adieu.

By GodHatesTrash

September 13, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this

Corporal, the American people gave the US military $584B and several years and you still couldn’t deliver a victory.

Your country doesn’t blame you, but you don’t get to blame your country.

By GodHatesTrash

September 13, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Ray, the organization I was involved with in northern Virginia had a policy of actively promoting American security and business interests on a global scale. We had a demanding customer who wanted us to work with their most difficult competitors. Sometimes the work was dangerous, although our careful planning, expertise, training, and patience often made my job seem easy, in retrospect.

In my unit, there were no hotheads, no sadists, no torturers, no ‘thousand yard stares’ (you and the good Corporal would not have made it). People who were those or had those didn’t get hired, at least not in my group, people who became those ended up in the home office pushing paper.

It was the most ego-free group of people that I have ever been involved with. We were patient and friendly with each other, and the people that we met around the world (on every continent, except Antarctica).

On several of my assignments, though, I was instructed to kill myself in lieu of capture or in the event of discovery (depending on the assignment parameters) and was given the means to do so. Unlike Senator Hensley-McCain, my orders did not give me the luxury of capture by the enemy.

So, your point, if you have one, is moot anyway.

Run along now, freak.

By "The Corporal"

September 13, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

To GodHatesTrash

A few years back one of our former officers was in Hanoi riding in a limo with a North Vietnamese General and he stated, “You know General, you never really defeated us on the battlefield.” The old General thought for awhile and then he said, “You may be correct but it is also irrelevant.”

You and I have had some good back and forth lately but seriously if you don’t know the history of how our hands were tied in that war, etc., etc. then any further dicussion is hopeless.

You would have had to have been there as the old saying goes ………..

God bless ……….

By Dennis

September 13, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Belated response to GetalifeWingnuts and Bosch from Dennis.

GW - How many of those who submitted to waterboarding would choose multiple doses of waterboarding over the options of caning, stoning, straping on a bomb or loosing their head?

Bosch - As I wrote, I am not a Christian, however, I suspect that it is the Christian communty rather than non-Christians who feed and house and provide other needed comforts (food, clothing, transportation, work, cash)to the homeless.

Bosch - I get the feeling that you, like me, had an unhappy experience with church in your younger days. A message for you; something that it took me a few years to realize. It was not all Christians nor all Churches that caused your or my distrust. Part of it was even my fault.

By Ron

September 13, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this

Evangelicals have abrogated any critical thinking skills they possibly possessed on the alter of their respective house of deceit - especially southern baptists. They are steeped in the words and nonsense of manipulating preachers (professional liars) that they are mere robotons incapable of any thought. I would rather take the word of a hooker than a preacher. Asking any of these dimwits a question that requires intellectual consideration is an exercise in futility. Our country has become poisoned and polluted by these charlatans.

By EB

September 14, 2008 1:06 AM | Link to this

Torture doesn’t work. It’s not like the movies. Experience has taught us that torturing people gives false information or no information.

With that in mind, we’re selling our souls for… what, now?