Home > Jay Bookman > Archives > 2008 > July > 02 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USRumsfeld’s torturous defense
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Thursday’s column….
In May of 2004, a grave Donald Rumsfeld stood before the TV cameras and condemned the pictures of abuse emerging from the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad.
“The images that we’ve seen that include U.S. forces are deeply disturbing, both because of the fundamental unacceptability of what they depicted and because the actions by U.S. military personnel in those photos do not in any way represent the values of our country or of the armed forces,” Rumsfeld told the world.
Over the next few days, Rumsfeld would further condemn the abuse as “totally unacceptable and unAmerican,” then as “blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.” He also made a promise that the guilty would be punished, a promise seemingly kept when seven enlisted personnel were later sentenced to prison.
Today, though, it is hard to fully describe the hypocrisy and cynicism of Rumsfeld’s performance. As he stood there telling the world he was shocked, shocked at what transpired at Abu Ghraib, he did so knowing that he himself had authorized more serious acts of torture on a much larger scale.
He himself had approved acts that he called unacceptable and unAmerican. He himself had ordered treatment that was, in his words, sadistic, cruel and inhuman.
In fact, Major Gen. Anthony Taguba, the Army officer appointed by Rumsfeld to investigate the scandal at Abu Ghraib, now believes that in light of ongoing disclosures, “there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”
That is not a charge to be made lightly, but as the facts become clear, it becomes harder and harder to reach a contrary conclusion.
For example, it is telling that the initiative for torture does not seem to have come from interrogators frustrated at not getting information through legal means. To the contrary, the idea seems to have initiated very early in the top levels of government, from men such as Rumsfeld and Vice President Cheney, who then drove sometimes reluctant subordinates to accept the practice.
In the process, they ignored protests from interrogation experts at the FBI and elsewhere who insisted that less extreme approaches would be more fruitful and extract more accurate information. They also squelched objections that the practice was immoral and counter to American values and law.
The narrative that is emerging suggests that to Rumsfeld and others, torture was not something they felt forced to do, but rather something they wanted to do against those they blamed for Sept. 11. And while an instinct for such vengeance may be natural, it is an instinct that civilized nations refuse to sanction, as Rumsfeld acknowledged by condemning the abuse exposed at Abu Ghraib.
According to reports in The New York Times, the torture techniques implemented with high-level approval at Guantanamo and elsewhere had been borrowed from techniques used by communist China against captured Americans during the Korean War. Back then, we accurately condemned those techniques as torture and stressed that they produced false confessions. And when we used the same techniques, they produced the same results.
Back in the summer of 2002, you may recall, the federal government issued a series of odd security alerts, warning that terrorists were first going to target malls, then banks, then apartment buildings. Each warning produced a flurry of panic, but none ever panned out. That’s because they were products of the ongoing torture of an al Qaida member of already questionable sanity who was telling interrogators whatever they wanted to hear, just as our captured servicemen had.
Four years ago, Rumsfeld advised the country to be patient, assuring them that justice would be done to those who had broken our laws regarding torture.
“These things are complicated; they take some time,” he said. “The system works.”
Well, he better hope not.
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Comments
By Swiftboat McCain Now
July 2, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
The International Criminal Court in The Hague awaits Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, Mr. Rumsfeld, Secretaries of State Powell and Rice, and untold other subordinates.
Oh, wait. The Bush administration deratified the treaty wherein we would opt into the ICC.
In criminal law, that’s call malice aforethought.
By Reality Check
July 2, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
When will people realize that this is war?Whether or not you agree with Cheney/Rumsfeld/anybody with an “R” after their names should be irrelevent. Do you think that these guys sit in some dark, smoke filled room to try and see how they can torture someone without anybody finding out? C’mon, get real. Cheney would much rather be shooting quail (or lawyers) than worrying about how to gather information from potential terrorists. When will people realize that this is a religious war? The Western mind cannot come to grips with that fact; we call it a war on terror. In fact, it is not a war on terror, but a war on Islamic radicalism. The same people who are beheading anyone they can in the name of Islam, if given the chance, would wipe us (infidels/non Muslims) from the face of the earth with a nuke! That is what we are facing, and that is why we need to let our military, our CIA, etc do what they do best; that is proctecting our country. Times are changing and until folks can comprehend what we are truly facing more of the same (radical Islam) should be expected. Fight fire with fire. Do you not think it is warrented to gather information, by whatever means necessesary, to save lives? If one of these Islamic murderers had knowledge of another attack, do you think they are going to play nice and respond to our Mr. Nice Guy tactics? Maybe if we say pretty please. Some folks need a reality check.
By Abundant Pundit
July 2, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
Reality Check is a dangerous troll. We are living on the razor’s edge of Islamic Truth and Islamist Terror. Bush himself mispronounced the threat so many times that one cannot blame Islam for striking christianity first.
We are the product of the Crusades. It was the Crusades that produced our ancestoral lore about Aladdin and the Forty Thieves. All the myths about secret tunnels and Islamic supernatural powers, flying carpets, and magic lanterns. all came from the Crusades.
Reality Check is the modern living embodiment of the ignorance that still believes in these fairy tales and disney cartoons. ANd that is what is driving our foreign policy concerning the billions of Islamic Hoards that only want to worship in peace.
They only want to be left alone to worship Allah, and Cheney would have destroy ourselves to stop them cold.
Great job, Jay Bookman
By alan
July 2, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
Jay —
Be careful. You will be branded a “communist”, and “unpatriotic” by Hannity and his ilk on FOX.
Now when I run for office in the near future, I will have to publicly explain my past associations with you, and come out to denounce, disown, and reject you.
Alan
By Believer
July 2, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
Do not worry, Alan. You will only need to denounce certain keystrokes made by the radical, Jay. His teachings, i.e., opinions, overall will remain intact and unknown by all save for his loyal band of bloggers. That is until the day before your long-awaited day at the polls. Then, a Dust-laden stranger will come forth spreading the word — the truth — swiftly, from a never before seen luxury cabin cruiser. It will all be history after that fateful moment. So, prepare yourself appropriately — don’t quit your day job.
By JAY BOOKMAN
July 2, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this
Yeah Alan, because it’s been at least, what, an hour or two since someone called me a commie?
I was overdue. I was missing the love.
By TW
July 2, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this
Frederick Douglass, the renowned abolitionist, began life as a slave on Maryland’s Eastern Shore. When his owner had trouble with the young, unruly slave, Douglass was sent to Edward Covey, a notorious “slave breaker.” Covey’s plantation, where physical and psychological torture were standard, was called Mount Misery. Douglass eventually fought back, escaped to the North and went on to change the world. Today Mount Misery is owned by Donald Rumsfeld, the outgoing secretary of defense.
It is ironic that this notorious plantation run by a practiced torturer would now be owned by Rumsfeld, himself accused as the man principally responsible for the U.S. military’s program of torture and detention.
The words of Donald Rumsfeld have proven themselves good for nothing. His actions define him perfectly.
By Bud Wiser
July 2, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this
I was pretty much with you until I got to the part about “According to reports in The New York Times…”, then it became pretty clear what was going on here. You couldn’t defeat him, you couldn’t impeach him, now you will try to prosecute him after he’s out of office.
How pathetic and small you people are. Like the emperor said in the Star Wars movie - “I can feel the hate swelling within you.” Life indeed imitates art.
Your hate makes you forget that we are fighting people who would gleefully behead your wife and children before your very eyes, people that have already murdered thousands of innocents via their attacks on the WTC, the USS Cole, the Marine barracks in Beirut. These are the same animals that beheaded Daniel Pearl on video, then published it…the same animals who dragged dead American soldiers through the streets of Baghdad before dumping them over the side of a bridge…the same animals that partied in the streets after 911.
And your presumptive candidate wants to make nice with these animals, thinking that if we play grab-a$$ with them, they will be nice to us in return. It makes me ill.
I am no fan of John McCain, he is a pathetic offering by a pathetic political party. But Obama is dangerous, and unfortunately we have so little to choose from in opposition. He wants to model as his offering in universal heath care a proven failure in health care systems that have already bankrupted Great Britain, and will do so to Canada soon enough. Teddy Kennedy got his MRI for his brain cancer the next day; in Canada scheduling for such a procedure takes about 10 weeks. He flew to Duke Medical Center in NC and met with a leading doctor in the field, Dr Stephen Friedman. Under Obama’s plan, that simply would not be an option…you would go where your plan manager, or government bureaucrat, would tell you, or not go at all. Then, you would die.
The hypocrisy of it all is ludicrous. And still people swoon over the Messiah Barak. A similar brain scan administered to Kennedy for Obama supporters would probably reveal actual absence of brain tissue.
By Dusty
July 2, 2008 6:20 PM | Link to this
Did some one say that a “Dust laden stranger would come with the word…..from a luxury cabin cruiser.”
Now, you are talking my language. any ol’ word. If you meant “Dusty will come in a cabin cruiser” I am all for that. But hurry. July is already here and I haven’t seen a single cabin cruiser. Water wings ahoy, I am ready. Let’s go!!
By Taxpayer
July 2, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this
Bud, I think you were none the Wiser to choose the evil emperor’s words — the words he used against “good”, as portrayed by young Skywalker, in the movie. I personally would have assumed that the emperor is analogous to [a perhaps once good but changed by hate] Rumsfeld and “good” is the rule of law. Of course, that’s just my opinion. There’s really no deep-seated hatred or anything like that lurking in between the lines.
By arcticredriver
July 2, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this
The comments of the ironically named respondent “Reality Check” contains a very serious misconception.
Abandoning the traditional respect for the rule of law and the presumption of innocence does not make the public safer. It makes the public much less safe. Following the recommendation of the FBI and heroes like Alberto Mora, to confine the interrogation techniques to humane and restrained “rapport-building” would have helped enhance public safety.
Crossing the border into what Cheney called “the dark side” has multiplied the number of confessions and denunciations. But none of those coerced confessions and denunciations is reliable.
These false confessions and denunciations are not merely worthless. The false confessions and denunciations have been very deeply damaging to public safety, because, acting on this polluted intelligence we squandered precious counter-terrorism resources on threats that were not real threats. There are limits to the resources we can devote to counter-terrorism. And, if we spend them on false threats, because we believed false confessions, we won’t have the resources to deal with some real threats.
Benjamin Franklin said it best — those who would sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither.
By Taxpayer
July 2, 2008 6:46 PM | Link to this
Perhaps I am a little too “obtuse” with my choice of words from time to time. I’ll try to elucidate w.r.t. a particular sentence of apparent interest: “a Dust-laden stranger will come forth spreading the word — the truth — swiftly, from a never before seen luxury cabin cruiser”.
Granted, there are many ways to re-state this sentence even for myself and I’m the author. But, here’s one approximation: “An old, all but forgotten relic suddenly appears from the distant past carrying a supposed message of truth while sporting around in a vessel that is surely beyond the recently rag-clothed bums means.” I must admit though that the capital d was thrown in as an afterthought just in case you know who happened to be lurking nearby. Also, I just could not help but toss in the swift boat reference. It just seems so fitting given the approaching election and the anticipations that are Oh So steadily building and waiting — It’s all about the [crescend]O. Dontcha know.
By Abundant Pundit
July 2, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this
Hillary 08: It could happen!
Osama Bin Laden 08: Hey, Al Queda’s gotta eat too.
Ahmajinidahd 08: Nuke, schmuke, what’s a few gamma rays amoung shia militia?
McCain 08: The terrorists are terror mongerers who cause terror and stuff. I wouldn’t surrender to them, the Vietnamese were bad enough… the N. Vietnamese weren’t terrorists, but Jane Fonda was.
Obama 08: Have you had enough, America?
By Copyleft
July 2, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this
I knew enlightened Bush-backers would point out the error in your reasoning, Jay.
You see, it doesn’t MATTER if we torture prisoners… because there are Bad Guys who Behead People! And that means any principles or honor we used to have must be sacrificed to defeat them (even if it doesn’t work), “by whatever means necessary.”
And why? To protect our ideals of American freedom, of course! We just can’t afford to actually FOLLOW them when the chips are down. Silly, idealistic man; Americans don’t actually MEAN it when they say they’re committed to freedom. They just want to be safe from the Scary Bad Men.
By mike
July 2, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this
Mr. Bookman, I had no idea you were such a candy-a$$. Reading your articles is akin to reading something a 5th grade girl would write. Some of you wimpy liberals need to grow a set. Heck we would all be dead if you were ptotcting us.
By JAY BOOKMAN
July 2, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
Ah yes, torturing helpless prisoners as proof of manhood.
Well, I guess some people take confirmation wherever they find it…
By Mike's Homie
July 2, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this
Y-y-yeah! B-b-bookman is a c-c-candyass and he writes like a g-g-girl, and if he were p-p-protecting us we’d all be d-d-dead!
By Been There Done That
July 2, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this
Abundant Pundit is abundantly ignorant. Having been to the Iraqi desert twice, I feel uniquely qualified to chime in on this subject. I would venture to guess that the Pundit has never been anywhere near a war zone or ever worn a uniform for that matter. Instead, he basks in the freedom provided and protected by others who are willing to die for his/her right to hold a contrary opinion.
Contrary to what the Pundit would have us believe, we are not fighting against people that simply want to worship Allah in peace. We are fighting against an enemy that wants EVERY non-believer dead. Period.
We are at war with an enemy the likes of which we have never seen before - that is an enemy that values death more than we value life. Think about that statement for a moment and then tell me how you would propose prosecuting a war against them.
And Pundit, while you’re at it, keep in mind that 19 muslims who just wanted to worship Allah in peace started this war by hijacking four commercial airliners and killing almost 4,000 people on American soil.
Pundit, you are frighteningly ignorant but in two months I will return to Iraq and defend your right to be such.
Semper Fidelis
By Michael
July 3, 2008 5:47 AM | Link to this
It seems to me that anyone who could watch or listen to Rumsfeld for more than about a minute and not figure out that he really is a colossally evil monster on a par with Hannibal Lechter would have to be an idiot or another monster.
By mike
July 3, 2008 6:23 AM | Link to this
Oh, let’s all just have a group hug, then maybe the terrorists will have a change of heart and leave us alone. Yeah right.
By GodHatesTrash
July 3, 2008 6:36 AM | Link to this
It will be interesting to see what happens next year if Obama wins the election and Bush is willing to give up the White House. February and March next year could see many many House and Senate hearings, subpoenas, and indictments - Rummy, Karl/a Rove, Cheney come immediately to mind…
Then there are the international tribunals - don’t expect any of the Bushies to be doing much international travel, except maybe to Saudi, where they’ve been bought and paid for. I envision that over the next few years there will be indictments from international courts for Rummy and Bush, and, like General Pinochet, they’ll have to be real careful if the leave American soil.
Come 12:01 PM January 20, 2009; Dumbya can’t pardon anyone either. Oops!
By Bud Wiser
July 3, 2008 7:04 AM | Link to this
I like the group hug idea with the terrorists! I really do!! It would give us the chance to pull the piano wire out of our pockets, wrap around their smelly animal necks, and with the proper application of force, let them meet Allah.
I bet Daniel Pearl would approve.
By Constructive Feedback
July 3, 2008 7:30 AM | Link to this
Mr Bookman could you help me out on something? I notice that when it comes to editorializing on the actions of the “two groups of EQUAL human beings” and their actions in Iraq the world media only focuses on what the Americans and their partners are doing. Again I say “world media” because the press in Germany, Italy and elsewhere can’t claim as you might that they are simply keeping THEIR government honest and thus don’t have any influence upon the Americans.
I wonder Mr. Bookman - where as you skewer the American military for their action in Iraq and Gitmo DESPITE having a framework of standards that they must live up to and having evidence that certain standards, when put in REAL WORLD ACTION, departing from the book in which they were written and executed by actual people, were fallen short of….where is your continued commitment to vocalizing about the other set of “equal human beings”? Are they VICTIMS of the American aggressor in your mind and thus whatever they do they are justified because they are “defending” themselves?
In truth I believe that you and others don’t have any particular standards for these other “equal human beings”. With your ideology you need people who “give a damn about what you think” and who are attempting to live up to a given standard”. Being a part of this system - you can hammer them for haven “fallen short” of that line which you monitor.
But wait Mr. Bookman! What about the other side? Where is your track record for holding them up to a certain standard? Do you figure they translate your columns and read them?
Do you see how neutralized you are? If a group does not commit themselves to any sort of order then your words are WORTHLESS to them and thus YOU don’t even bother to comment. Instead you seek to achieve your goals through managing the people who “Do give a damn about their integrity” though just not to your standard as you sit in the press box rather than on the field of play.
Don’t you feel “intellectually superior” Mr. Bookman? I await your Pulitzer prize winning series called “Al Queda: They Knowingly Violated Their Own Standards”
By Mike
July 3, 2008 7:36 AM | Link to this
I guess Bookman has no interest in reporting the increasingly good news from Iraq, so he blathers about 2004.
It’s not a surprise, as Bookman and the rest of the partisan liberals at the AJC spoke out so stronlgy against the surge. Now that the surge is clearly a success (lowest casualty count two months in a row, 15 of 18 benchmarks reached, etc), they just think if they ignore the good news, people will forget how wrong they were.
The “news”room is doing its fair share too. Try finding news about the lower casualty rates or progess on benchmarks on the AJC. You won’t because the partisan liberals who run the AJC have no interest in reporting of any news that conflicts with their liberal activism.
By Believer
July 3, 2008 7:39 AM | Link to this
That distraught, brainwashed little Muslim beat you to the punch there, Bud. For her Wiser accomplices equipped her with sufficient explosives to take you and many others with her to meet your maker and her little bomb probably had a little fail-safe device to ensure detonation at the proper time. People who get cocky get caught off guard. Don’t get caught off guard.
By the way, what do you think about the Oklahoma bombing. Was it the work of an Islamic terrorist sleeper cell. If only Rumsfeld had been there to extract the truth.
By Pat
July 3, 2008 7:41 AM | Link to this
Sure everybody’s hot and eager to torture and kill terrorists for revenge, or just for fun - whether it results in bogus info or not. Sadly, we’re lousy at capturing them. More sadly, we’re very good at capturing people kidnapped by Arab warloads and sold to US authorities as “terrorists” … as well as hapless European citizens on their way to weddings, etc. Even Bush admin. officials admit now that 95% of the Gitmo detainees are of little or no threat - or at least, they WERE til we tortured them and inflamed a new generation of enraged Muslims. Now, yeah, it’s a huge problem. Bush admin memos admit “we may be creating more terrorists than we are capturing.” Ya think? Idiots! As to mushy terrorist-hugging “liberals” trying to get Bush for war crimes - bottom line, we don’t have to. Our allies are quietly assembling legal cases as we speak. Bush Cheney, Rusmfeld & Co. may well leave office as wanted men - not because of warrants sworn against them by radical enemy countries, but by decree of U.S. allies. The shame & irreparable damage these thugs have brought on us all is infuriating. As to standard “this is war, so anything goes” BS, this nation has faced massive threats, including that of nuclear annihilation, without losing the human decency that distinguishes us from our enemies. If you’re willing to trade your liberties under this Constitution,imprison without trial and torture anyone randomly declared to be an enemy to feel “safe,” you are a gutless coward who doesn’t deserve freedom. Where are people’s guts and courage? After 9/11, we should have laughed at Bin Ladin: “That’s it? That’s the best you could do, after years of planning? Knock down a couple of office buildings with our planes?” But no, we’re stuck with Alfred E. Neuman, eager to prove his manhood by attacking the wrong country. Our kids, grandkids and generations of descendents will be paying for Bush’s actions long after he leaves office; in the Arab/Muslim world, grudges and revenge last THOUSANDS of years.
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 7:59 AM | Link to this
A lot of wingnut comments. For those rational folks just checking in, I’ll spare you the stupidity and give you the essentials:
Bud @ 6.30: “You libruls love terrists and the NYTimes is a commie rag.”
Mike @ 9.30: “I have a small peener.”
Been There @ 11.10 “Since nobody else ever in human history did suicide attacks, nope, never happened before—let’s do stupid stuff that doesn’t work.”
Con Feedback @ 7.30: “At least we’re not as evil as them Al-Kaidens. Why don’t you write a column about that Jay, huh?”
By ron
July 3, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this
I would like to know what Obama’s subject of conversation will be when he sits down with people that are willing to get up in the morning,have breakfast,and then fly an airplane into a building with the intent of killing innocent people.What do you talk about?What is the common ground that leads to conversation?
By Copyleft
July 3, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this
“Of COURSE we torture the Bad Men and then claim we didn’t! What do you expect us to do, talk with them and have a group hug?”
See, there’s the problem, Jay. You just don’t understand that torturing people and lying about it is OKAY when WE do it! That’s what makes America great!
By Bud Wiser
July 3, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this
Yes, Believer, I would have been caught off guard. Dam. I knew it would be too good to be true. You just can’t get a good group hug any more. We tried it at my group meeting of Persons with Multiple Personality Disorders last week, but no one knew who was hugging who.
As far as the Oklahoma City bombing, that murderous sick little b******* has been properly dealt with, and que sera sera. I was piloting a commercial airliner that day from Dallas/Fort Worth to Oklahoma City, and the mess on the radios trting to get in there was nothing compared to the mess on the ground. McVeigh got what was coming to him, but not in the proper manner. I shall never forget the newspaper picture of the fireman in tears, carrying the lifeless body of a baby from the rubble.
There is a very special place in Hell for McVeigh and all others like him.
Ans as far as Pat the Poster Child for the morons of the world, gutless wonders like you never cease to amaze me that you have the amount of brain power to type, when you and all of the other Muslim apologists somehow twist your version of the ‘truth’ that makes America at fault for everything that is wrong with the world. Pat, are you a Muslim? Your capacity for self flagellation, tears, and anger lead me to believe that you are one; either that, or you are among the legions of cowards that are incapable of defending even yourself. You are a dimwit indeed. Pray that no Islamic fascist comes for you, because you will then curl into the fetal position, sob like a baby, and probably say something like “God help me” when in fact, your disdain for the very help you could have gotten from the military was cursed by you at the time it was being applied.
Your type of cowardice should be thrown to the very wolves that you think want to make nice with you. You disgust me.
.
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
Ron, do try to keep these folks straight. The nutballs running Iran—you know, the nation that the GOP would have you believe we Can’t Possibly Negotiate With—they’re not of the same religion affiliation as the guys who actually flew those plans into those towers.
And it’s pretty rich hearing you bring that up in this context, given that we’re going to try Khalid Sheik Muhammad for supposedly masterminding this attack.
While, apparently, we are funding the very same crazy-violent-extremist Sunni group, the Baluchi, in Iran whence he came.
You really think that Obama proposal to set up a framework for diplomatic relations with a nation of 80 million people, who haven’t invaded another country in three hundred years, is crazier than what we’ve been up to for the last seven years over there?
By Craig
July 3, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
Sorry, “been there”, but I don’t believe you. No real Marine would trash the laws and the Constitution of the United States like you want to.
Go back to your war games in the woods with your redneck pals.
By Been There Done That
July 3, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
Craig - I am currently at Children’s Healthcare here in Atlanta trying to deal with a medical emergency involving my 9-year-old son. If you possess the stones to make your challenge face to face, you can find me in the ICU. I would imagine my attire will make me easy to spot.
I dare you.
By Eric1
July 3, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this
The real terrorists on our shores are homegrown and they’re being protected by the likes of the Supremes and the NRA. I’m much more fearful of some gun nut down the street than I am of an unstable hermit 7000 miles away. It’s easy for Dubya to claim he’s protecting us when the threat is imaginary. But he’s done a lousy job of protecting us from the real threats right here at home. When he and Cheney and Rumsfeld, etc end up in prison we should declare a World Holiday.
By Buck
July 3, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this
Sorry, according to my gay brother a bunch of naked men piled on top of each other looks more like a party at a gay bar than torture. Why don’t we ask the WWII vets about torture under the Japs. That was torture. Hell Bookman, you and your liberal weenie bros might actually like what went on at Abu Ghraib…..
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this
Craig @ 8.24, I tend to take those who claim they’ve been Over There at their word unless there’s some glaringly obvious reason to believe otherwise.
Been There, assuming you are who you claim to be, my prayers are with your son. As a father, I hope never to know what you’re dealing with.
But you’re wrong about Muslim fundamentalists being unique in their willingness to kill themselves and innocents to further their own cause. Our nation has faced such insanity before, and we almost certainly will again after this threat has been neutralized.
Bud @ 8.13, you can cry “cowardice” all you like, it doesn’t make this Administration any more manly, or right.
Actually, I can think of few things less cowardly, not to mention lazy, than torturing defenseless, neutralized individuals in hopes of coercing false confessions.
But don’t take my word for it. Take that “coward” General Petraus’, here.
By Mike
July 3, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
Look at the moronic hate speech coming from the liberals on this board. So much for liberals being “tolerant” or “intellectual”, let alone mature.
If folks like “HillbillyRagger” and”CopyLeft” think low of me, I know I must be doing something right.
By Blind Homer
July 3, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
The object of war is to kill the enemy before he kills you. There is no moral high ground and acting as if there is only puts you at a strategic disadvantage relative to your enemy. Thank god we still have men like ‘been there’ that understand the reality of war. Thanks ‘been there’ for fighting for Bookman and Craig and the rest of these cowards.
By Goldie
July 3, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
{{What do you talk about?What is the common ground that leads to conversation?}}
Ron @ 8:01 — maybe you should ask your guy Dubya why he didn’t sit down with his friends from SAUDI ARABIA and discuss how they could allow all those SAUDIS attack our country? Don’t you believe that there’s “common ground” there for that conversation???
By Been There Done That
July 3, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
Hillbilly - I never claimed that suicide bombers were a unique obstacle. However, dealing with religeous zealots that, as I said, value death more than we value life, is indeed unique.
BTW - Thanks for the thoughts and prayers regarding my son. He is out of the woods but faces a long recovery from injuries suffered in a car accident.
Semper Fidelis
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
Brilliant! By all means, Buck @ 9:08, let’s do “ask the WWII vets about torture under the Japs”.
You do realize we executed those Japanese officers who were responsible for torturing them, right?
And that the specific method cited in the trials was water torture?
From the link:
*Here’s the testimony of two Americans imprisoned by the Japanese:
“They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness.”
And from the second prisoner: “They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air… . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.”
As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the “water cure” to question Filipino guerrillas.*
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this
Blind Homer:
If you are so Machiavellian regarding war “any means necessary” and you believe that torture is acceptable, then do you think it is acceptable for our soldiers to be tortured in war?
No, I would imagine not. It is fellows like you that would cry the loudest over the treatment of American soldiers, but would not think twice about torturing some “un-american” Islamist.
When are we, as Americans, going to pull our heads out of our asses and realize that we are not alone in this world? There are other countries out there and if we want to be who we claim to be, respected and admired, we need to grow up and act like a country worthy of respect.
You know, my mother always taught me “do onto others, as you would have done to you.” If we enagage in torture, then we should STFU when other countries do it to our citizens!
However, there is a better choice. I say lets lead by example.
By Buck
July 3, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this
Been There, hope all is well with your son, you and your family. Thanks for your service. My dad served in WWII, Korea, Vietnam with the Corps and was a D.I. for some time. I can assure you all as a kid growing up I went through “training” that was far tougher than the prisoners at Abu. Semper Fi Marine.
By Sean Hannity
July 3, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this
America, The bestest greatest country on Earth!!,
Now repeat over and over with eagles and flags sweeping across the screen.
By ron
July 3, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
Hillbilly ragger,I simply asked what the topic of conversation would likely be.What do you talk about when you sit with a group willing to send their children out to blow themselves up at the local market.How do you address a group willing to kill their daughters to proect their own “honor”?What sort of dialogue do you have with people that cut the throats of their enemies?
We need to treat these people in a humane way?Why?Tell me why.Because it’e the honorable thing to do?It’s the American way to be nice?Tell me Hillbilly,I’m listening.
By Abundant Pundit
July 3, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this
Wait, been there done that, take care of your son first. “Doctor, will my son be okay, he’s not been very well lately, but he’s not as sick as the Liberal whiners. My son has a fever, will he need a prescription? I’ll make sure he takes his meds, doctor, unlike Liberals who never take their meds and act insane like the socialist scum they are! I hate disease and democrats, doctor, they are commies, and need killin’.”
You are a funny guy, beenthere. You’re using Wifi? What a country! Happy 4th of July, sir. I respect your two tours of Iraq. I am a child of war. War lives in people. It’s in my father, and contaminates everything he ever did or said to me.
Brief History of Islam vs Christianity: 911. Osama did it! CIA found him in Afghanistan. Bush ordered Rummy to attack. Rummy refused. Delayed ten full weeks. Foiled CIA. OBL excaped. Conclusion: Cheney ordered Rummy to stand down, becoming defacto commander in chief, which is treason, and something nobody voted for, (two presidents). Cheney’s motivation: If OBL had been captured and al queda destroyed, then voters would have expected our troops to come home, and never supported an adventure into Iraq. Period. Goodbye all those billions in no-bid defense contracts.
If you can explain and understand that history to yourself and still support the Iraq War, then you’re a better Christian/Patriot than I.
Islam vs Christianity. Crusades? We’ll call it a draw. World War One? British occupation of Iraq (1920s and 1930s)? British finally bug out and leave the Sunnis in charge, (the Sunnis wore western attire). Sunnis persecute Shias for 3/4 of a century at the West’s total approval. Who’s the bad guy there? Where does christianity deploy christian ethics superior to Islamic survival reprisals? The Shia wont trust us now after 75 years of western sponsored terror from Bathist Sunnis. Saddam Hussein was our biggest ally over there. Remember? We still have to pay the Sunnis not to kill Shia civilians. We are paying bribes for the surge’s success. You know that, right? We can never leave Iraq now because of that. Iraq is our 51st state. We’ll always pay those bribes for sunni insurgents to stand down.
Desert Storm in 1991: Gen. Frank’s footdragging cost us total victory and was indirectly responsible for the mess in Iraq today. Check out what Gen. Franks did after being ordered by Schwartzkoff to attack. He sat. It’s Schwartzkoff’s fault for not firing him on the spot and sending someone else to lead the attack.
But when a general hears orders to attack, he needs to attack, whether or not he thinks all his troop have all their kit bags and dry socks. It was criminal. I will never forgive Gen. Franks for that. (not the same Franks in 2003)
But you dont care about military history or the complications of war. You dont reserve your hatred for terrorists, instead, you hate other americans who dont understand your convoluted attitudes about the flag, Christianity, and Islam.
Islam has every right to share this planet with us. If you want to destroy the world because of Islam’s lunatic fringe, just like they want to destroy the world because of Christianity’s lunatic fringe, then you can understand why Christianity and Islam are equivalent. No diff. Same. They both want to destroy the world.
When Christians and Islamics look at each other, they are looking in a mirror.
When you and the Christian/Islamic lunatic fringe understand that, the world will be saved.
Have you hugged a mullah today?
By Mike
July 3, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this
Let me respond to Hillbilly Ragger’s comment as he responded to mine:
Hillbilly Ragger @ 9.25: “I have a small peener.”
See! Now I am an intellectual like him!
Wow! That feels great. Here I’ve been wasting all my time writing posts that involve facts and avoid ad hominem attacks. Hillbilly Ragger has show me how to save time by resorting to hateful Pavlovian responses to any who don’t share my personal views.
By Buck
July 3, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this
Hillbilly, your name speaks for itself. Go find your sister.
By Bud Weiser
July 3, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this
BURB…. Oh sorry everyone, just knockin back my second six pack of Buds for the mornin. Hey does anyone have a liver they are not using?
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this
BTDT @ 9.19, I’ll grant that the religious component to the zealotry may be unique, but after all’s summed up, is it really any different than the zealotry of the kamikaze or more desperate elements of the NVA?
Anyway, glad to hear your boy is over the worst.
By GodHatesTrash
July 3, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
Jay touched on it in his column - and it’s evident in most of the posters here - that there’s a thirst for revenge, and for those revenge-needing arrogant animals, who cares how many innocent civilians and babies killed killed or maimed, or how many other Americans get killed (Rummy and none of these chickenhawks are actually in Iraq getting their revenge needs filled, are they?).
There’s also the considerable contingent that just like blood and torture. It’s very southern and redneck to enjoy the discomfort of other human beings and animals - dogfighting, bear-baiting, lynching, cockfighting, are all more common in the south than anywhere else. Of course, so is domestic violence, murder, rape, incest, etc. etc. - I could, unfortunately, go on and on and on…
By Bud Wiser
July 3, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
Hillbilly, how did you make the jump from me calling out Pat a cowardly whining blob, to “cry ‘cowardice’ all you like, it doesn’t make this Administration any more manly, or right.”? Not once have I mentioned the incompetent boobs in Washington, yet you draw a strange, long line to connect the two. I just don’t get it. Are you just trying to make a point and simply do not know how?
Maybe you want to have a wiener roast with the Islamic fascist murderous animals; cook some marshmallows over the fire and sing songs, convince them that we are not really the bad guys. Then you and your new buds can part ways and be friends forever. Your blogs are always the same….tiresome parrot talk from your models at the Daily Kos or the Huffington Post. Try to use your head for something other that a hat rack and at least come up with something original, if you can.
By Buck
July 3, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Has anyone ever died from waterboarding? What about what the Japs did on the Burma road, or with the many soldiers and civilians they tortured then executed? I will take the waterboarding over having my head cut off with a Jap sword any day. Hillbilly, I am sure just spending a day with you is far worse than waterboarding…..
By Been There Done That
July 3, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
Pundit, in the treatise you posted at 9:34 you said, “You dont reserve your hatred for terrorists, instead, you hate other americans who dont understand your convoluted attitudes about the flag, Christianity, and Islam.”
First, you disrespect your fellow countrymen by failing to capitalize the “A” in Americans.
Secondly, I believe I specifically stated that I, as well as the brave men who serve under me, are willing to serve and die to defend your right to have a contrary political opinion.
You should examine the words of others more carefully before being so quick to criticize.
Civil discourse is healthy for America because it enables those of us who engage in it to be more fully informed on a given issue. Blindly criticizing someone simply because they don’t share your myopic political viewpoints serves no positive end.
My son just woke up so with that I will bid you all farewell and wish you all - regardless of political affiliation - a very happy and healthy Independence Day holiday.
Semper Fidelis
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
Mike @ 9.34: “Hateful?”
Get over yourself. I don’t hate you, or anyone else in here. I do find some of the arguments repulsive, others just kind of pathetic, and still others just flat-out made-up junk, but I don’t waste my energy hating the little electrons encountered on the Internets.
One last note before I run, to Ron @ 9.32, since you asked nicely—
I can’t answer that, because you keep moving the target. You bring up Obama, I guess, because you’re upset on account of his willingness to bring diplomacy more to the forefront of our efforts to neutralize the perceived threat from Iran’s government pursuit of a uranium enrichment program. Fair enough, if you want to argue that point.
But then you start going on about “a group willing to kill their daughters” and “people that cut the throats of their enemies”, and I just don’t know what you’re talking about.
Maybe this would be the time to ask—just what have you been led to believe Obama is proposing to do? Do you have a cite?
Anyone else of a rational bent want to talk to Ron in my absence? I just can’t hang out here, but I will check back later.
By Blind Homer
July 3, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
Shrew - While I am unhappy with any suffering by our soldiers I don’t question the ethics of their treatment during war. I don’t condemn the invaded and occupied Iragis for defending themselves with IED’s and any other tactics, as I will do the same when the Chinese come over here. You have very nice ethics, but you are out of touch with reality living the comfortable life people like ‘been there’ have preserved for you. Most of the world regards us with some combination of fear, envy, and hatred despite our myriad attempts to lead by example. Islamic terrorists aren’t swayed one bit by our generous rebuilding of Iraqi schools, hospitals and infrastructure. I like the Golden Rule too, but when the other party doesn’t reciprocate I change to treating them the way they treat me! The Japs deserved the firebombing of Tokyo and the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima because they attacked us first. Don’t tread on me!
By GOPs got to go
July 3, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
Excellent post at 9:34 Pundit.
How conveniently we forget that we supplied Saddam with weapons and supported him when we were then calling Khomeini the “devil”.
We did the same in Afghanistan with the Mushadeen against the Soviets.
America under the Shrub, the “Do as we say, Not as we do Country.”
By Abundant Pundit
July 3, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
If you say semper fidelis one more time……
By rmorrow
July 3, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
GOPs got to go -
Maybe if your didn’t get your historical “facts” from someplace other than the Wikipedia or liberal blogs, you wouldn’t be so ignorant (like the rest of your liberal bretheren).
By Old Salt
July 3, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this
I just finished reading all of the comments on the board above and I must say it really leaves me speechless. I served for 21 years in the USN Submarine Service, but do not wear a flag pin and do not subscribe to torture as acceptable behavior for Americans. Does that make me unpatriotic? I also believe based on a preponderance of evidence that top levels in our government including Cheney/Rumsfield are complicit in this torture. At Nuremburg American judges convicted Germans for being guilty of the same sort of behavior.
I love my country with all my heart; however that does not hinder me in questioning it when it is wrong. That freedom is granted to me under the constitution and by the heroic actions of others who have served before me. As to the “They do it, so why can’t we?” argument; I will always remember when a young boy; my mother saying, when I wanted to do something that was dangerous or just wrong and I used the argument “but Billy does it,” and her reply, “If Billy jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would you?” I think that might just be apropos here.
By Copyleft
July 3, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
Ron sums it up nicely, even though he doesn’t realize it:
We need to treat these people in a humane way?Why?Tell me why.Because it’e the honorable thing to do?It’s the American way to be nice?
Exactly, Ron. We behave honorably and with principle because—get ready—we’re honorable and have principles. What our ENEMIES do doesn’t matter. What WE do in response does.
That IS the American way. It’s a shame so many people seem to have forgotten that in their fear and anger.
By Rummy
July 3, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Now let me just make one thing perfectly clear. A man shakes another man’s hand in order to size him up. Did you see the pain in his eyes as I squeezed the blood out of his fingers. It was torture, pure torture.
By Dave
July 3, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
When I read this article this makes me think of Lindsey English and the other patsy guards who are still in prison in regards to Abu Ghairb. The right thing to do would be to give them a pardon for being led astray by those above them like Rumsfield. Will this happen it is doubtful as it might offend the Muslims who are our supposed allies. We will just leave them in jail and pretend these patsies got out of hand rather than give them a pardon they probably deserve. In a way like Scooter Libby they were just following orders and being pawns to their superiors. Pawns are always there to be sacrificed like in a chess game they always have a shorter life span than the kings and queens may.
By Abundant Pundit
July 3, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
Yes Old Salt, that DOES make you unpatriotic. I order you be tied to a yard arm, given 50 lashes with a cat-o-nine-tails, then keelhauled and made to walk the plank. (then we’ll bury the treasure).
Because, to be a real american, sir, you have to be a pirate first, then a connoiseur of torture. Why do you think the television series called “24” was such a hit, because we ourselves would stick a lit cigarette into a captive’s eye if we thought we could subvert another 911. I would. You would, (wait, you’ve been keelhauled, you’re off duty for a while), anyone would.
Why cant we admit that we need our laws, our government, our triumvirate of congress, white house and supreme court to have checks and balances so that one man doesn’t become king?
I want 2B king, dont you? It’s good 2b the king. Ask mel brooks.
“It’s good to be the king.”
Torture is probably necessary when 911 is at stake and there’s no time for psychology or mamby pamby footsy tootsy with an Islamist piece of scum who may know how to stop the 911.
I think partisanship spin on torture ruin the political atmosphere which would allow for a more informed and discriminating electorate.
I do. I really do.
By Taxpayer
July 3, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
My, aren’t some of us abundantly pungent this morning. Argh!
By ron
July 3, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Copyleft,Ron realizes what he did.He simply listed all the reasons in question form.He knows that Americans are the principled ones.He knows that torture is against the Geneva convention.He knows that Americans have placed themselves on such a high pedastal that any hint of an abberation during war time toward not being Mr. Nice Guy sends people into raving fits of anxiety.I’m reading this morning about so called Americans willing to turn their President over to be tried for war crimes.I’m reading about a Presidedntial candidate that wants to sit down and discuss issues with people that have proven themselves to be less than human.I’m simply trying to discover how serious all you people really are.
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
Ron,
how have the Iranians proved themseleves to be “less than human”? Just because you think all muslims are scum does not make them any less deserving of respect.
And yes, I think our government should be punished for war crimes. Committing torture is wrong and against the Geneva Convention that we signed. Our administration puts itself on a pedestal and says that Saddam had to do because he was an evil dictator, and because he committed crimes against his own people, I.E. TORTURE, and we denounce him as evil. Then our administration goes and does the same damn thing. Of course, many like you think that if they are another countries citizens, who gives a damn. I call that hypocritical.
Either we are against torture, or we are not. It’s black and white. There is no grey.
By CherokeeDave
July 3, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Jay: Scenario Unfolding. News Flash AJC’s entire Editorial Board and over 600 employees are held hostage by the notorious “Copycat” a right-wing conservative christian southern terrorist trained in the secret bombing-education camp of The First Baptist Church of Woodstock, that bastion of liberal lefties, Cherokee County. The boardroom is laced with C-4 tied to the a smaller bomb in the basement of the AJC corporate offices. Jay Bookman has CopyLeft held at pencil point and is demanding the codes to the diffuse the bombs and potentially save the lives of hundreds. He thinks, now how can I get this information from Copyleft, it’s set to go off in two hours. What should I do ??? 1.) Contact the local ATL ACLU office and get permission to ask him politically correct questions. 2.) Order him a bible, a minister to visit and noon-day meal with the hopes to effectively “negotiate” with him to get the codes. 3.) Contact Congress and let them discuss what appropriate measures can be legally OK. 4.) OR, POSSIBLY, MAYBE use a technigue with some “history” of working called Waterboarding (that has only been used at Club Gitmo on the record less then 10 times since all the left media hyberbole started) and SOLVE problem.
But knowing the parties involved, Cynthia and Mike would want you to “peacefully” and in a “non-profiling”way gently discuss the situation with CopyLeft so as not to hurt his feelings.
Hoops, new development. Jay Bookmans wife and children have been found tied up next to bomb in the basement. Now Jay: Do you want Obama negotiating or Don Rumsfield ??? Let’s see, what will your answer be ??
By Abundant Pundit
July 3, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
Well!
By Blind Homer
July 3, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
Copyleft - Exactly when did behaving nicely, in wartime, become the American way? After we revolted against the legal British authorities, frequently using guerilla tactics, to create this country? When we took the rest of it from the natives, you know those plains Indians that tried to teach us to fight morally by counting coup while we shot them and slaughtered their women and children? When we fought against ourselves over economic differences? The firebombing of Tokyo, burning 100,000 innocent women and children to death in a single evening? The nukes we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The massacre of 400 mostly women and children at My Lai? War is hell, it shouldn’t be fought nicely, it should be avoided whenever possible and fought decisively when it’s unavoidable.
By Copyleft
July 3, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
Ron: We’re quite serious. We want to see our country stick to its principles, and stand or fall by them too.
Torturing prisoners—and then lying about it—is not what America’s about. And if that makes us less “safe,” I’m fine with it. Better to die free than live as a cowardly savage.
By Copyleft
July 3, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
Dave: Here’s another scenario for you.
North Korea has nukes and hasn’t decided whether to use them on us. Who do you want responding to that situation—“Bring ‘em on” Bush, or someone with a brain?
Oh, wait—it turns out even BUSH recognized the need for diplomacy rather than cowboy bravado! Oh well. Looks like the warmongering-stupidity approach fails either way.
By GOPs got to go
July 3, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
rmorrow,
DUH, I am old enough to remember the headlines in the papers and covers of Time magazine in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s.
Oh sorry, I know those are Liberal rags and not up to Faux news standards of excellence in journalism.
Let O’Reily put his Peabody from “Extra” on display
By CherokeeDave
July 3, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
CopyLeft: Sorry friend, it was Bush’s resolute approach and tough stance for over 4 years that brought NK back in line. The diplomacy was secondary and has at least for the present slowed the NK nuke processing down. Should we trust them, no way. Unlike what your hero’s Clinton and Albright didn’t do and in the end, gave away the program. You just plain hate Bush without any factual basis except your continual CNN soundbite responses. You can’t argue the results: How many POST 9/11 attacks have we had on our soil since the middle east efforts have effectively disrupted the terrorist cells worldwide. AND, emphasis on AND, your media (not mine) refuse to broadcast all the outstanding results that have taken hold in Irag BECAUSE it will make Bush (who you hate) look right and on target with his administrations goals for a democratic structure. Open your eyes and look beyond the CNN screen but I don’t think you have the common sense to move beyond whatever baggage your carrying for the conservative successes. Final Note: Regarding Lucko’s cartoon today. Notice the jab at unemployment levels. Yet, the percentages compared to Clinton term are exactly less to the same over the 8 year stretch. BUT your media groups ignore it.
By Believer
July 3, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
Well, first of all let me just say that I’m not much for conspiracy theories or that sort of thing because I know they’re not theories or at least not all of them. Take that alien technology for example but that’s another story. That said, wouldn’t it really be sad to find out one day in the future that this whole thing with us invading Iraq turned out to be the end result of an elaborate plan by some angry former KGB agents that decided to pay back the US for Rumsfeld’s, Cheny’s, and others past involvements in Iraq and Afghanistan. Wouldn’t it. You know, there might just be some truth to that old saying, “You reap what you sow.”
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this
Cherokee Dave,
If you beleive that the fact that we have had no terrorist attacks on our soil since 9/11 is due only to Bush, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
Terrorist cells are down? How about the report I just saw in a right-leaning news source about the Taliban resurgence in Afganistan. You know, the country that is harboring the person who really killed our people?
Also, what about Saudi Arabia, that country where 11 of 19 hijackers were from? Why don’t we target their terrorist cells? (oh, because then Bush and Co couldn’t make money from their friends there).
And there is no way to win a war that shouldn’t have been started in the first place, surge or no surge. And as soon as you sheep start realizing this the better off we will be.
By Bud Wiser
July 3, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
AHA! I finally figured it out! It was really bothering me to read a lot of the blogs on Bookman’s site from folks like GaLiberal, CJ, Pat, GodHatesTrash, et al, that were professing things about our President, our military, and government rants about god knows what. The depth of vile hatred, combined with an apparent lack of intelligence, was just a conundrum. Does there really exist such people that would so completely and totally throw the reins of our government, our future, our children’s future, into the unproven and untested hands of someone with such a far left appeal as Barak Obama? I know that the welfare toads, bureaucrats, no-job-experience-ever-in-my-life (but I can teach) academia, and government workers in general would, because they consist primarily of life’s losers, or socialists, or those sucking on the government teat. But the ordinary Joe? That is when it hit me…..
You guys have to be Republican plants! No one can be as totally and completely stupid to believe the crap you spout, without doing it as a diversionary tactic! Very clever indeed. But I would recommend reining it in a little, because even the average person coming out of Georgia public schools would find your statements totally unbelievable after a while. And the name calling of those you disagree (tee hee) with should probably be cut back, too. We just want to make the left become exposed to the light of day on the error of their ways, not to be made to look like the moronic tools you guys are so successfully portraying.
But….good work! I really like your efforts! Keep it up, but control, you must learn control.
By Copyleft
July 3, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
CDave: You seem to be desperately ignoring a few facts yourself, in the hopes they’ll go away—or that Americans will forget about them. Facts like:
Osama bin Laden, the guy who attacked us on 9/11, remains at large… after Bush SWORE to bring him to justice.
Iraq had no WMDs and was no threat to us—as our needless invasion proved beyond a doubt.
Terrorism incidents worldwide have increased since our foolish little Iraq blunder.
Thousands of Americans, and TENS of thousands of Iraqis, have died in this silly crusade… all for nothing.
And the bill for this blunder: A cool TRILLION dollars.
Those are some facts for you to chew on as the Democrats cruise to an easy victory this November. Here’s hoping President Obama has enough of a majority in Congress behind him to start fixing the mess your bully-boy created.
And finally: Torture remains wrong. It’s cowardly, it’s illegal, and it’ un-American. THAT’S a fact you can’t ignore, no matter how hard you try.
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this
Ron, I’m back and I will ask again: just what have you been led to believe Obama is proposing to do? Do you have a cite?
I ask because instead of answering me, you’ve posted:
“I’m reading about a Presidedntial candidate that wants to sit down and discuss issues with people that have proven themselves to be less than human.”
Which “less than human” people are these, Ron? And just what has Obama actually proposed that has you so upset about it?
Here, I’ll even point you to Obama’s web page about Iran. What is he proposing, there, that is so troubling?
I’ll quote the money graf:
“Obama would offer the Iranian regime a choice. If Iran abandons its nuclear program and support for terrorism, we will offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization, economic investments, and a move toward normal diplomatic relations. If Iran continues its troubling behavior, we will step up our economic pressure and political isolation. Seeking this kind of comprehensive settlement with Iran is our best way to make progress.”
If you want to argue this, go ahead. I’ll listen.
(Of course, none of this is even remotely related to what Jay’s published in today’s column, but since you went there, I’ll follow.)
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
Hey Bud:
You may need to cut back on the beer. We couldn’t possibly be republican plants because we can think for ourselves.
By Abundant Pundit
July 3, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
4 trillion barrels of oil in the ground.
100 billion barrels of oil used by world.
100 x 10 years is one trillion.
we have 40 years of oil left. No wonder the futures market is exploding.
Buy oil futures.
By Been There Done That
July 3, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
I’ve got a moment and thought I would share an “informed” opinion on the subject of torture and war zone interrogation.
I do not have any stars on my collar (yet) and thus can not claim to be privy to all of the necessary intel on this subject. Having said that, I dare say I have more first-hand knowledge than others on this board.
Have there been prisoners tortured? Yes. Have some – possibly many – of those episodes been unjust? Yes, without question. Should those responsible be subjected to courts martial? Absolutely – and most have (others still await adjudication). On the other hand, have some of the episodes of “torture” been merited? Yes, without question. Have some of those episodes yielded invaluable intel that has led to the prevention of future loss of life? Yes, without question.
The U.S. employed the use of two atomic warheads in WWII. Could the loss of civilian life from the blast itself and the resulting radiation sickness be considered “torture”? I think most Japanese citizens would say yes. However, did the use of those bombs save more lives than they took? I think so and I am supported by most historians on the subject.
I guess what I’m getting at is that the justification of military tactics is frequently a matter of perspective. The line between right and wrong is very easy to see in your living room. It’s not quite so clear on the battlefield.
Until you have served in a “hot” battlefield, you will never understand the rationale behind battlefield interrogation techniques. The need to extract information – immediately – becomes paramount because two minutes later that very same information may be used to kill you. Do some of our troops carry this too far? Sure. That’s human nature. It happens. I’m not saying it’s right but it happens.
Sorry for the long post and to Hillbilly… Semper Fidelis
By Bud Wiser
July 3, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
Cut back on the beer? Are you MAD?????
By Blind Homer
July 3, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
Clever - In your 11:04 you attempt to equate waterboarding a dozen known/suspected terrorists with Saddam using nerve gas on thousands of Kurds during peacetime. Does anyone else refer to you as clever? By the same logic Truman nuked two whole cities but never stood trial at Nuremburg or Tokyo and yet some of you think BushCo will be convicted of war crimes for waterboarding? Clever and cleverer!
By ron
July 3, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
Hillbilly,I have simply been led to believe that Obama wants to sit down and bore the Iranians to death with diplomacy.Should he be elected President,I predict that he’ll still be talking when they test their first nuke. Let’s see if they close the Straits of Hormuz here in the near future.Should they try that maneuver,we won’t be talking a lot.
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
Blind:
Ok, so I guess gassing the Kurds would have been ok if it was wartime?
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
“Should he be elected President,I predict that he’ll still be talking when they test their first nuke.”
I don’t believe that’s at all likely, and I think pushing diplomacy is far less risky than funneling hundreds of millions of dollars to support violent fringe-group Iranians thugs as we’re doing right now…but we’ll see.
“Let’s see if they close the Straits of Hormuz here in the near future. Should they try that maneuver,we won’t be talking a lot.”
They could try, but it’d be nearly as suicidal for the Iranians as, oh, bombing Israel.
Anyway, thanks for your reply.
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
Also, Blind,
Truman not being prosecuted just shows the typical American Hypocrisy. It’s ok for us, but not for anyone else. If another country had developed the bomb first and dropped it on two American cities, you better believe they would have been tried as criminals.
Also, to the winners go the spoils. So since the Allies won, none of them were willling to call a spade a spade and admit it was probably not the best idea.
By RepublicanPlant
July 3, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
I’m trying to maintain a low profile while I conduct my subversive operations here on Bookman’s blog so I’ll try not to draw undue attention to myself. I sure hope no one here is smart enough to figure out who I am or what I’m up to here. Anyway, where did I leave off. Oh, yes,
99 barrels of oil in the ground, 99 barrels of oil, Pump one out and have no doubt, There’s just 98 barrels of oil in the ground.
Now, tell me where you have those barrels of oil hidden. I know you have more, where are they. Glug, glug, glug.
By Buck
July 3, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this
Torture=forced reading of a Jay Bookman column.
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
no one’s forcing you Buck. Its still a free country. (for the time being anyway)
By Believer
July 3, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this
Thanks for your willingness to share your wisdom so freely there, Buck. Tell me, what do you think has been going through Rumsfeld’s mind in the year’s since his involvement with Saddam. Do you think that he’s living out his own personal hell, surely a torture of sorts, or does he have no regrets and would do it all over again with no changes? Any thoughts on that? I’d be inclined to believe that he’d like to take back that publicized handshake. Of course, that’s just my opinion.
By Blind Homer
July 3, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this
Clever - Heck yeah man, all’s fair in love and war! You’re right on about the winners too. Once in awhile they punish some nobody like Calley for My Lai and the half dozen or so guards at Abu, but the big boys don’t get in harm’s way and don’t get prosecuted, as long as they win. The winners chopped up Germany because they’d been naughty and lost twice, but we didn’t exactly pillage the country. After the war we’re nice again, like in the Marshall Plan where we rebuild what we just got through blowing up. Doesn’t make sense to me. As a one big happy world kind of guy I’m sure you recognize and love the UN, but the truth is it started as just the winners of WWII, the Allies, trying to legitimize and legalize their use of power. But tell me this, was it okay to firebomb and nuke the Japs because of Pearl or the Bataan death march or should we have fought nice and honorably with them too?
By GodHatesTrash
July 3, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
Ever notice that the filth that defends torture are the same filth that defend racism, sexism, and homophobia?
Of course, many of them beat their wives and kids, too.
You know, if seven years of being tortured and beaten are qualifications for being President, then there are probably about a million women in Georgia who should be running.
Mrs. Wiser 08 Campaign Committee, anyone?
By Swiftboat McCain Now
July 3, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this
Sure wish we could just send all the gun lovin’ nutcases in the U.S. over to Iraq and Afghanistan, and let them play cowboy to their heart’s content.
Of course, like in America, they would probably kill more innocent victims than veritable terrorists, but like the nuts say, keel em all en let Gawd sort em out.
By CherokeeDave
July 3, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this
Re: CleverShrew, Hillybilly ragger, CopyLet and all the other Bookman subordinates; I hope for the sake of this great country that the likes of you and clan never get in positions requiring tough decision-making, balanced common sense and miliatry / civilian strategy. This great ship would be sunk in a week. To go back and bandy about the “fallacy” of Truman’s decision borders on the absurd. You don’t know the classifiend data, the conditions after Pearl, the estimates of 4-6 additional years of a protracted war in the Pacific or more importantly the anticipated losses of over 1 million american military with the continuence of the war. (That they started lest you forget.) Those two bombs SAVED american lives AND brought Japan to its knees. Lest we forget, Japan INVADED every country but China and demanded IMPERIAL servitude along with making slaves of other asian citizens. They pillaged, raped and murdered across the Asian contnent and you don’t even care how close we came to speaking Japanese in this country. And you morons try to make out like “Oh, we were at fault for dropping the bomb”. Those two bombs not only stopped a critical war against evil dead in its tracks but it FREED 4 - 6 other countries already held in slavery to Japan. You people make me sick.
I don’t agree with all the decisions Bush has made, but we needed a leader that wouldn’t falter in the midst of “polarized” nation where 50% of the population has short term memory loss. We’ve lost our will for the very reason that the general population gets beaten into submission from an agenda driven news media that is 1000 times more politically conspiritorial then Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield or Rove combined in a lifetime.
Tell me liberal left trio: Why do your left leaning Networks refuse to produce and show “historical” documentaries on 9/11 and periodically broadcast these events into our homes. For the very reason that even in all of the logistic mistakes made, the decision was the right one for this nation and the middle east. And to remind the nation of the damage done by terrorist on our soil would keep the support going. Get Real, Get Right and Vote Republican. (Period)
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this
Blind:
Fighting with honor should always be part of the war plan. Do I think we should have not retailiated for Pearl Harbor or Bataan? No, I think we had every right to do so. (At least in that one we picked the right country, the one that actually did the bombing) However, do I think we should have chosen the two sites we did in Japan to drop the bomb on? I am not sure. Personally I think we should have stuck to millitary targets. I mean Pearl Harbor was awful, but it was a Navy Base. They didn’t choose the Hawaii Hilton where civillians are. But would that have stopped the war? No way of knowing.
As for the UN, you nailed that one. And no, actually I am not the biggest fan. Not because of the principles of the UN, but beacuse the leading countries have manipulted the organization for their own selfish acts. First and foremost the US.
By Blind Homer
July 3, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
Swift - No thanks, I’m staying here with my Glock and 12 guage. But if you accidentally come creeping through my front door I’m going to keep firing until you’re spread over a large area. Than I’m going to hunt down your kids and their kids and put them beneath my sword so that you and your seed perish from the earth forever! Happy 4th to you all, no matter who you’re voting for! Born in fire and blood 234 years ago we’re still bathing in blood today, and mostly someone else’s! Because that’s always been the cost of freedom. May Allah and the peace-loving Muslims everywhere bless America! Peace, love, and out.
By Clever Shrew
July 3, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this
Hey Cherokee Dave,
I have watched “historical” documentaries on 9/11. I noticed that when they showed the terrorists that hijacked the plane that 11 of 19 were Saudi Arabian. I noticed that Osama Bin Laden was responsible. I noted that we then invaded Iraq.
Huh? How come Saddam is dead but we “can’t find” Osama? Explain that to me, please, because it just doesn’t make sense.
I mean even in your post you noted that we bombed Japan that bombed us. We got it right back in ‘45 with less technology and intelligence corps. How could we get it wrong in ‘02?
By Believer
July 3, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this
CherokeeDave,
You raise valid questions regarding the media and their dissemination of historically relevent information — especially information that pertains to Bookman’s topic. Perhaps you would be so kind as to review the information on the following web page and provide us with your insight on the matter:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2773
By Joe
July 3, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
More idiot logic from Jay. I really don’t care how information is extracted by the intelligence community. It’s none of my business and it’s none of the media’s business. I didn’t realize that the media was entitled to all national security secrets anyway. All I care about is being protected from the crazys that want to hurt me and my family. I personnaly think the actions by those soldiers at Abu Ghraib were bad but it’s no worse than the ridiculous debacles you see here in gay pride events…….
By hillbilly ragger
July 3, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
Joe @ 2.40, are you under the impression that the photos you’ve been permitted to see from Abu Ghraib represent the extent of the horrors that were done there?
You do realize that there is video, plus thousands of photos that have never been released to the public, including at least one act of child rape?
By Jay
July 3, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” - George Orwell
By Algonquin J. Calhoun
July 3, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush and lots of others are war criminals and should be brought to trial before a world jury. These people have broken the laws of the United States and the laws of decency. I hope the world will rise up and conduct a trial of these atrocious liars and murderers!
By GOPs got to go
July 3, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this
I for one am really looking forward to the Rapture. Give me boils and bugs over Dusty and Bud Weiser any day of the week.
I have large cans of Raid I am stockpiling along with my aloe cream. AAHH just think of it, no more holier than thou diatribes….. Please hurry Nov 3rd so we can get on with fulfilling scripture.
By Craig
July 3, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this
Okay hillbilly fair enough.
Been there, best of luck with your son.
But you’re still wrong - and I will say it again. Any marine I have ever known has more respect for the laws of our country than you evidenced in your post.
By Lane Randall
July 4, 2008 1:09 AM | Link to this
After lying us into an utterly unnecessary and disastrous war with a country that wasn’t threatening us, violating FISA and other laws wholesale, outing American secret agents — and thereby condemning God knows how many others to death — out of petty spite for being opposed, politicizing the Justice Department and deciding whom to prosecute or not solely on the basis of partisan advantage, etc, etc, etc, outrages like these have become so routine with this administration that we have almost come to expect them!
Far more than even Richard Nixon, George W Bush is precisely what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they wrote impeachment into the Constitution: a president who is completely out of control, who openly declares himself and his “unitary executive” presidency to be above the laws and the Constitution of the United States, and who blatantly violates our Constitution, statutes and fundamental national values with open and obvious contempt on an almost daily basis.
I very much fear that our nation will come to regret not holding Bush and his cronies accountable, in any form or fashion, for his and their assorted high crimes, misdemeanors and assaults on everything we are about as a people, and for the indelible stain they’ve placed on our history and our form of government.
When the Republicans impeached Bill Clinton (and earlier, Andrew Johnson) for purely partisan purposes and on the flimsiest of grounds, they lowered the bar for impeachment about as close to the floor as it’s possible for it to approach. But by not even so much as censuring Bush or Cheney — much less impeaching and removing them from office — when by their actions they have all but demanded that congress do so, can any future criminal president ever be held to account with a straight face?
By Shelly
July 5, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
I don’t rember the terrorists who attacked us concerned about the pain that was inflicted on human life. The children who lost parents, the sons/daughters burning alive in those towers, others who jumped and those brave souls who downed that airplane in Penn. When was the last time America attacked anybody? We come to the aid of others with one thing in mind……peace and the sanctity of life. Torture?????….how about some credit for the great things our country does and the soliders that risk life and limb defending us. Those murders in Abu Grab want to KILL us all. If they know something hold them down and inflict pain until they talk…..Oh, but wait. That is cruel. Lets wait for one of them to cut somebodys head off and then try and talk about why America just provoked them over some ice tea ( only after they have some private time to pray of course ). After all, we simply don’t understand. Americans love freedom, family, religon, sports and want to live in peace. These murders dwell on means to attack and kill. For some reason we are to blame for all of this?????
By NRB
July 5, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
welcome to the topys-turvy world of Liberal Land!
According to Democrats, the terrorists are good and our troops are bad.
Criminals are poor disenfranchised and misunderstood, and cops are of course bad.
It’s okay to kill a baby, but not a baby raper or a murderer.
Oh yes folks, the upside down world of La-La-Liberal land is a thrill ride not for the squeamish!
Hey, AJC, every wonder why readership is down? Could it be because of your anti-American, anti-white, anti-capitalist garbage that this publication spews out?
I have my champagne bottle primed and ready for when you socialists finally get run out of town. Happy 4th! Not that you celebrate it…
By Constuctive Feedback
July 5, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
@GodHatesTrash:
If the Democrats do take over as you say next year and withdraw our troops while holding Congressional inquiries this would be the best thing to slap down the Democrats. You see as they are focusing in on the past…..the present is going to come upon them. America will see that our enemies don’t follow a partisan political script. Please allow your most partisan blowhards to lead the way. Please do.
We are going to see them go after the Bush Administration far more aggressively than any of them were willing to go after Al Queda. This will make great theater.
By Dennis
July 5, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this
Quoting from Jay Bookman’s column, “In fact, Major Gen. Anthony Taguba, the Army officer appointed by Rumsfeld to investigate the scandal at Abu Ghraib, now believes that in light of ongoing disclosures, “there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.” we are left to wonder what Jim Wooten will have to say about this. But most likely, he’ll remain quiet.
And we can bet Saxby Chambliss and Johnny Isakson will be quiet about it, too.
You don’t have to be a blind conservtive not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.
By Copyleft
July 7, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this
I really don’t care how information is extracted by the intelligence community. It’s none of my business and it’s none of the media’s business…. All I care about is being protected from the crazys that want to hurt me and my family.
There you have the modern Republican, folks: flag in the air and head in the sand. “The government can do whatever it wants, as long as I feel SAFE!” Sure, what’s two centuries of freedom and honor really worth, anyway?