Home > Jay Bookman > Archives > 2008 > June > 30 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USWes Clark’s “insult” to John McCain
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Oh brother.
Wesley Clark, a retired four-star Army general and Obama supporter, is being attacked for statements made on “Face the Nation” Sunday regarding Sen. John McCain. (See the video here.)
“I certainly honor (McCain’s) service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces as a prisoner of war,” Clark said in his opening remarks.
Clark then went to dispute McCain’s claim of extensive experience with strategic issues, noting that in his political and military careers McCain had never handled major executive responsibility and had little experience in decision-making roles.
“Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down,” host Bob Schieffer said.
“I don’t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president,” Clark responded.
Ohmigod, can you believe he said such a thing!!!
As an objective statement of fact, Clark is of course correct. As proof, consider the case of the late James Stockdale.
Stockdale, like McCain, was a Navy aviator shot down over Vietnam and imprisoned in the Hanoi Hilton. Like McCain, he was a brave man — in Stockdale’s case a Medal of Honor winner — who later rose to admiral. He served his nation with great courage and distinction.
In 1992, however, Stockdale was named by Ross Perot as his running mate on the Reform Party ticket. And on the campaign trail, the brave and honorable admiral quickly proved himself to be in way over his head as a candidate for national office, as he himself later acknowledged.
Riding in a fighter jet and getting shot down did not qualify Stockdale to be president.
Back in 1999, by the way, Stockdale wrote a piece for the New York Times to address rumors then being spread by some in the Republican presidential primary that McCain’s time in the Hanoi Hilton had somehow warped his personality.
“I am not surprised by reports that Senator John McCain’s political enemies have been spreading rumors that his famous temper is a sign of a broader “instability” caused by his imprisonment in Vietnam,” Stockdale wrote. “In fact, a few weeks ago I received a call from an old friend who is also close to the George W. Bush campaign soliciting comments on Mr. McCain’s ‘weaknesses.’ As I told that caller, I think John McCain is solid as a rock.”
I should also note that many of the Republicans claiming to be so shocked and appalled were probably giggling with glee when GOP delegates to the 2004 convention wore fake Purple Hearts to make fun of John Kerry’s war wounds.
Meanwhile, what are we going to do to salvage the situations in Afghanistan and Pakistan? What do we do next in Iraq? How can we address our longterm economic challenges? How can we adjust faster to $4 gasoline?
.JPG)
-1.JPG)
Services »
Comments
By DeKalb Voter
June 30, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
You must have really long arms to reach so far into the bottom of the barrel to dig up what some old has been used up hack such as Clark has to say. Didn’t America send him packing in a prior election? Do you think anyone cares what this old hack has to say? This is the best you got? He is whoring for a job.
By rightytighty
June 30, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
Funny that you should leave Iran off that list, as if a nuclear armed Iran is no danger to our economic future…, freudian slip Jay??
By rightytighty
June 30, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
Don’t worry Jay.., Barack Obama is going to magically sweet talk the Taliban out of Afghanistan, Osama out of Pakistan, terrorists out of Iraq, Saudi Arabia out of more oil and single handily resolve all our economic woes that were brought on by that nasty Bush administration.
Because.., he’s a liberal rock star! Yes he can!!
By JOs
June 30, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
McCain shouldn’t act like criticizing a person’s record is insulting. In fact, we need more analysis of substantive issues like analysis of issues and records.
By Jim S.
June 30, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
John McCain has clearly made great sacrifices for the sake of this country and deserves all the respect that comes with his honorable military service. General Clark’s point is legitimate for discussion and people can judge whether or not the type of military service Senator McCain had is equivalent to that of a General Eisenhour or others who’ve served in upper level leadership roles. I am someone who has often said that the McCain of 2000 would have won the general election had he run as an independent and I would have been hard-pressed to vote against him. Sadly, that John McCain has had to backtrack and kiss up to the so called ‘christian’ right and the ‘voodoo economics’ crowd, among others. While Senator McCain remains a fine man, I think our nation hungers for a major shift from the truly embarassing current administration and he simply does not provide that in his 2008 version.
By Frederick Douglass
June 30, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
Trillions spent like a drunken Texas Air National Guard pilot on a three day pass in Nogales, and no one can see the irony. We’re sinking fast with this conservatism crap.
By Blind Homer
June 30, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
Our problems are oil dependency and deficit spending. We need to withdraw from all military positions that do not pose an immediate threat, pass a balanced budget amendment, and become the world leader in alternative energy.
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
Here’s the irony. Few people know how inherently dangerous it is just to learn to fly a fighter jet (McCain, President Bush or anyone else) let alone go to combat in one. This is due to all weather flying, night flying, tactical manuevers, etc.. Take a look at the training stats if you don’t believe me. Nothing is more dangerous in the military involving “non-combat” than fighter jet training especially the carrier landings. The John Kerry “swift-boating” espisode is not a fair comparison as Kerry had some real issues to explain. “Ashley” (and Frederick Douglas) should be ashamed of himself.
By Jay's brother
June 30, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this
I have no qualm in Clark’s assertion that being a prisoner of war does not qualify him for president. That he was able to survive it and go on to a distinguished public career does say alot for his character—something most Americans still place great importance in. As a conservative, I have many issues to take up against McCain, but tested character and leadership is not one of them. What separates him from Obama is that Obama has never been tested to such a degree. He has voted “present” in countless bills as a future hedge on issues, he has never run a buisness, never managed a govermental organization, etc etc. “Change” and “new blood” is fine, just so long as that person has actually done something—ala Bobby Jindal of LA
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
And everyone is forgetting one thing. Obama could NEVER qualify for a top secret clearance as a government employee or contractor due to his current and past association with known domestic terrorists. Yet he may be elected president. Talk about a “Trojan Horse”.
By Bosch
June 30, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
Known domestic terrorists? Oh please, do tell.
By Pee'er Pressure
June 30, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
Watch McCain step lightly about his military record.
Clark’s goal is not Hanoi Hilton. It’s not whether McCain’s service qualifies him 2B prez.
No, Clark is setting up a national revisit to the catastrophe McCain caused on the aircraft carrier Forrestal, during Nam.
Lets let America decide whether that hot dog wet-started his jet and cooked a sidewinder on the jet behind him causing it to fire into refueling planes across the deck.
McCain wont talk about it, and that’s about to change. McCain’s campaign will sink when those videos get out in circulation.
Everyone forgot about this until I kept bringing it up, you know. I saw the video. Wet Starting was one of the Top Gun hotdog thinks that brash arrogant pilots did against the rules to show what amazing uberstunts they were. McCain couldn’t resist playing that wetstart gag with that armed jet right behind him on that carrier deck. Of Course McCain didn’t know the sidewinder would just go off like that, of course, it wasn’t McCain’s fault, and he shouldn’t accept responsibility for his prank and by not accepting responsibility for his foolishness, he will make a great president, no?
Mccain 08: Just let him back on a carrier deck. He’ll know what to do.
By ws
June 30, 2008 5:33 PM | Link to this
The Corporal ,
Please define “association”.
Thanks to the idiots on Fox, our political discourse has now descended into middle school levels.
Yes, yes, you sat on the same bus with Pol Pot 20 years ago, denounce him now, or else, you are a communist.
Yeah, you touched the gas pump used by someone called “Adolf”, cut your hands off now, or else you are a terrorist.
Yes, you heard someone criticize our red, white, and blue. If you don’t cut your ears off, you are not a patriot.
…on and on and on. When does this nonesense end?
ws
By GaLiberal
June 30, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this
I read recently that the Vietnam officer in charge of the Hanoi Hilton endorsed McCain for President. So McCain now has the Communist endorsement. In the article, this person also said McCain was always cheerful and smiling which calls into question McCain’s claims that he was tortured. He also said that McCain helped him with his English. Better English would be a good tool when interrogating prisoners. Apparently, McCain was assisting the enemy while he was a prisoner of war.
Of course, I believe none of this. I want to demonstrate how you can twist anyone’s credentials into a negative. McCain being a fighter jock that got shot down proves he wasn’t a very good pilot but that has no bearing on being President. Has McCain been involved in high-level strategy decisions on the reckless and unnecessary Iraq war? No. And neither had Obama. So on this topic they are dead even. McCain crows about how many times he’s visited Iraq and how safe it really is. Of course, the route was cleared for McCain and he had an armed military contingent and had to wear battle dress. Oh so very safe. So McCain reaches a false conclusion and uses it to attack Obama. So McCain and Obama are even on this one too. For all the bluster about McCain’s foreign policy experience, when you get right down to it, he has no more than Obama.
When you vote Rethuglicon, you vote against your own best interests. And McCain’s posturing on foreign policy is living proof.
By Stewart Nusbaumer
June 30, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this
you think this is an insult? how about what the Republicans did to John Kerry? now that was insulting! how about when on the floor of the Republican convention they mocked the Purple Heart of all veterans! even those who are KIA! i will never forget the unpatriotic Party for that. never!
By Abomi Nation
June 30, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this
The Corporal, its not Obama you need to worry about, its John McCain!
Do some research on the 2000 election. According to the Bush campaign John McCain is the “Manchurian Candidate.”
When McCain was a prisoner of war he was brain washed. When he is sworn in, the communists have programed McCain to turn us all in to commies.
This all came to light in the 1999 campaign for the Republican nomination. Bush and Karl Rove would never lie or mislead us. Never ever, ever! They have always put America first.
Please everyone, we must not allow McCain to turn us all into communists. Because of the brainwashing McCain is not eligible for a top secret clearance. Yet he may be elected president.
OH……MY……GOD!!!!!!!
By JRL
June 30, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this
Hey Nusbaumer - Kerry did it to himself. Based on the nature of his injury and mine I would not be able to carry all my Purple Hearts - God help us - the democrats sure won’t.
By CJ
June 30, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
Bookman said: “I should also note that many of the Republicans claiming to be so shocked and appalled were probably giggling with glee when GOP delegates to the 2004 convention wore fake Purple Hearts to make fun of John Kerry’s war wounds.”
What’s disappointing is that it’s not just Republicans who are claiming to be shocked and appalled…it’s also the so-called liberal media (aka: McCain’s base).
By sunshine and thunder
June 30, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this
Well it seems that Mr Clark has something in common with the examples you cite Jay. He failed as a commander and he failed as a candidate.
Now that’s someone who’s opinion I could cite - if I was trying to REALLY stretch.
By Joseph Kenrick
June 30, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this
I find it a little curious when folks talk about qualifications. Bush was appointed a director of Harken and signed a document that he would not sell off the shares of stock given to him. He did, however, sell his stock against his word.
Who was the purchaser? None other than Moon Sun Myung, a korean genius who knows what cheap traitors the bushes are.
McCain had his balls cut off in Nam, no doubt about it.
(Has McCain ever run a business on his own? I haven’t heard of one, please enlighten me.)
I’m tired of all these silver-spoon fed pigs thinking they know what Americans live like.
They just want to send your kids off to war and give you a check for $5,000.
Not a bad price to clean the gene pool.
By Ms. Tucker If UR Nasty
June 30, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this
www.wclt.com/news/articledetail.cfm?articleid=23261 Peruse this site at your own risk, then compare Mccain and Obama.
By peg
June 30, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this
I don’t understand what the fuss is about. Wes Clark said something that was both true and irrelevant. John McCain has not had executive experience. It is also true that Barack Obama hasn’t had executive experience. And despite attempts to declare the opposite, neither has Hillary Clinton. George W. Bush had some executive experience. Jack Kennedy did not. Hmmmmm. Should we get a Constitutional Amendment and elect Bush again? Get real.
By ron
June 30, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
Wesley Clark said something that didn’t need saying.That’s all that happened.
We apparently need more of the same in Iraq.It’s working.Things are improving rapidly.The Iraqi’s are minding their own store more and more.
In Afghanistan,I guess we just keep killing until the Afghan government decides who’s side it’s on.
Don’t adjust too quickly to $4 gas.It will be $5 gas soon enough.$6 gas comes after $5 gas.Opec is perdicting $170 a barrell soon.
By herb
June 30, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this
Get out of town; Wes Clark is an educated moron. I went to a school with him he was Number 1 in the class but had a hard time finding his way to and from class. McCain has a wealth of experience, attended all of the military advanced schools that Clark did, and, if he hadn’t had the misforture of being shot down, he might have had some of Clark’s jobs. Clark was always in the shadows or making the wrong decisions. Chalk it up to being a Rhoads Scholar like his sole mate Bill Clinton.
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this
To ws:
Association means acquaintances, friends, worked on his campaign, he has been to their home, etc., etc.
Things I would have lost my clearance for involing just plain old crooks.
But not to worry. Bill Clinton could not have gotten the clearance either for his unexplained visits to the Russian Embassy while he was a student at Oxford.
Democrats always have problems with security clearances especially for the staff postions at the White House. Republicans, almost never.
Believe me, I know !!!
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
To ObamiNation:
Well, if it came right down to it I would rather have a brainwashed “commie” than a brainwashed “closet Muslim” ………… :o)
By dave
June 30, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this
Jay, your daddy must be REAL pround of you…
By ViewFromMidtown
June 30, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this
Come on everyone; are you really forgetting John McCain’s biggest accomplishment? Dumping his first wife and marrying his mistress, Cindy - only heir to a beer fortune and 17 years his junior. Nothing like scoring a trophy wife and sugar mama in one stroke!
Then daddy-in-law makes him a VP in his company and he starts making friends with people like Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings & Loan. Cindy’s money and all those connections got him his seat in Congress and off he goes!
By hillbilly ragger
June 30, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this
Hey, “Corporal” @ 5:08, who gave us:
Kerry had some real issues to explain.
No, he didn’t.
You want to explain something, explain this, pr!ck.
By Texas Dem
June 30, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
Bullseye! The rats are scattering and squealing at once! Didn’t realize this was all that powerful til I read what the wing-nuts are are saying.
In the words of De Gaulle, “Continue.”
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
To Hillbilly ragger:
Let me put it this way. In the unit and branch I was in we “worshipped” our officers because they were leaders. For most of Kerry’s subordinates to “hand him up” in later years is incredible. In addition, writing yourself up for your own purple heart is a no no ….. Sorry.
I have seen the elephant. Have you?
By GodHatesTrash
June 30, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this
I’m calling Herb out - you say you went to school with Wes Clark - Clark went to West Point and Oxford - my guess is if you attended either of those institutions you would know that it’s “soul mate”, not “sole mate”, and “Rhode’s scholar”, not Rhoads.
McCain, despite being the son and grandson of admirals, finished 4th from the bottom in his class at Annapolis, and, along with the plane the North Vietnamese shot down, he trashed four other planes with his antics, including some hotdogging on the deck of the Forrestal that resulted in the deaths of over 100 seamen.
Any soldier, if that’s what you are/were, we know spelling ain’t your strong suit. If somehow you were in Clark’s class, he was at the top - and you were at the bottom. No wonder you’re for McCain.
By Abomi Nation
June 30, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this
Oh yea Herb. McCain is some genius.
He ranked 894th out of 899 at the Naval Academy.
Wow, yea, pure genius. A real scholar.
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this
To GodHatesTrash:
You are truly a knuclehead. McCain’s aircraft on the Forrestal was hit by an errant rocket from another plane. He was lucky to escape with his life. He had nothing to do with initiating the accident. You need to go back in your hole.
By Winslo
June 30, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
To AbomiNation, GodHatesTrash, et al:
What you guys are forgetting is that finishing near the bottom at West Point is like an “A” most other colleges and univesities. Do you actually realize how hard it is there academically not to mention the other tremendous drains on your study time. You pampered guys have no clue …………….
By DumbAmericans
June 30, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this
You silly dumb Americans never cease to amaze me. McCain graduated at the bottom of his class. He is naturally a fool and time will not correct this fact.
hey who cares at the end of the day David Rockefeller still controls the show regardless of who wins.
watch the dollar crash and burn the rest of the year. buy gold people. rome is on fire.
Communism is alive and well in the good ol USA.
By hillbilly ragger
June 30, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
Corporal, you’re making stuff up again about Kerry.
“most of Kerry’s subordinates” did NOT “‘hand him up’ in later years.” None of the Sh!t Float Liars were on the boat with Kerry, save for one (1).
Corporal, you’re in a hole. Stop digging. Or just stop lying.
I know it’s hard—you got into this habit by forwarding lies about Obama via email, and now you’re in here, repeating those lies.
You’re going to get called on them. We’re not putting up with this crap in 2008, and no moronic appeals to jingoistic, blind loyalty to a failed Administration are going to cut it this time around.
Or hadn’t you noticed?
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 9:35 PM | Link to this
To HillBilly Ragger:
You are ignoring the points. I know it’s hard but ……..
1) West Point vs. most other colleges ???
2) Your Buddy GodHatesTrash had it all wrong about McCain and the Forrestal (just look it up).
3) And Yes ! The Swift-Boat heros did in fact cost Kerry the election ! They deserve a medal for that because he (Kerry) called me a “baby killer”. I would like to see him do it to my face!
By Winslo
June 30, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this
Kerry was a disgrace to the Navy and the uniform of the United States which he trashed during his false testimony on Captitol Hill. I wish I had run into him back then.
By Jay's brother
June 30, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this
If Barack Obama was a WHITE first term senator 6 yrs removed from the Illinois State Legislature, with a resume similar to Obama and his name was instead Barton O’Bannon, do you really think he would be the Democratic nominee who beat HRC??
Didn’t think so. Race tops experience, achievement, character, and everything else. Affirmative action is alive and well in politics of today’s America
By GodHatesTrash
June 30, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this
McCain spent most of his adult life drunk and w-horing until the North Vietnamese shut him down. He was hotdogging on the crowded deck of the carrier Forrestal, causing a rocket on the plane behind him to burn off, which started fires and explosions that killed over 100 seamen before it was over. Immediately after the fire, the ship commander removed him from the ship to keep the swabbies from killing him - McCain never set foot on the Forrestal again, the only unhurt person to receive this treatment.
Only the fact that his father was the Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet prevented him from being court-martialed out of the service or into the brig.
By kakdee
June 30, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this
At Jay’s brother, June 30, 2008 10:15 PM -
Achievement, experience, and all the other “qualifications” you cite are relative. So, the question is how much experience, and achievements are good enough? For example, in my opinion, anybody who wants the job of the highest office in this country must have a Phd., and also be a political researcher (My view ONLY).
Another American’s view of who is best qualified might be someone who knows basic economics. So, whose qualifications should we go with exactly??
THAT IS WHY OUR FOUNDING FATHERS WISELY STATED THE “QUALIFICATIONS” FOR THE PRESIDENCY IN OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS.
We don’t need ADDITIONAL “qualifications” than what our founding fathers stated. In other words, if “WE THE PEOPLE”, DECIDE TO ELECT SOMEONE WHO JUST GOT OUT OF COLLEGE AS PRESIDENT, THEN SO BE IT. That is the beauty of Jeffersonian democracy.
It has nothing to do with affirmative action, skin color, etc. because every person will have his/her own definition of “BEST QUALIFIED”.
In fact, some of our founding fathers argued that the people will be better served by a person WHO HAS NO EXPERIENCE IN POLITICS AT ALL.
QUESTION: WHAT DID THE “TOWER-HIGH” EXPERIENCE OF BUSH, RUMSFELD, AND CHENEY DO FOR US AFTER 8 YEARS??? WHY DO YOU WANT TO USE THE SAME CRITERIA TO SLELCT THE NEXT CANDIDATE. USE YOUR HEAD !
kakdee
By GodHatesTrash
June 30, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this
Here’s the link to the 132 deaths that McCain caused by his negligent arrogant hotdogging
132 names on the wall in DC - put there by Captain John S. McCain III.
By rightheadgoo
June 30, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this
yahoo yahoo green head all tom this glass black microsoft kitchen
By GodHatesTrash
June 30, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this
The McCain Navy Record: John Sidney McCain III entered the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis, Maryland in 1954. Young McCain wanted to become an admiral. He planned to be the “first son and grandson of four star admirals” to achieve such a distinction. But that was not to be. McCain III possessed none of the innate character and discipline traits that helped mold his father and grandfather into great military leaders.
His father, John S. “Junior” McCain, and grandfather, John S. McCain, Sr., were famous four-star Admirals in the U.S. Navy. His father commanded U.S. forces in Europe before becoming commander of American forces fighting in Vietnam. His grandfather commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945. Both men became highly influential in U.S. Navy operations.
At the Academy, aside being known as a “rowdy, raunchy, underachiever” who resented authority, Cadet McCain became infamous as a leader among his fellow midshipmen for organizing “off-Yard activities” and hard drinking parties. Robert Timberg wrote in his book, The Nightingale’s Song, that “being on liberty with John McCain was like being in a train wreck.”
McCain’s grades were “marginal.” He drew so many demerits for breaking curfew and other discipline issues that he graduated fifth from the bottom of the class of 1958. Despite his low “class standing,” and no doubt because of the influence of his family of famous Admirals, McCain was leap-frogged ahead of more qualified applicants and granted a coveted slot to be trained as a navy pilot.
Good Party Animal - Bad Pilot: He spent the next two and a half years as a “naval aviator in training” at Naval Air Station Pensacola in Florida and Naval Air Station Corpus Christi in Texas, flying A-1 Skyraiders.
While a pilot trainee, McCain continued to party hard. He drove a Corvette and dated an exotic dancer named “Marie the Flame of Florida.” Timberg wrote that McCain “learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn’t love it.”
McCain Lost Five Military Aircraft: McCain, the “below par” pilot, eventually lost 5 military aircraft, the first during a training flight in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while trying to land. The Navy ignored the crash and graduated McCain in 1960.
While deployed in the Mediterranean, the hard partying McCain lost a second aircraft. Timberg described the crash: “Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral.”
Unscathed, McCain returned to Pensacola Station where he was promoted to flight instructor for Naval Air Station Meridian in Mississippi. The airfield at Meridian, McCain Field, was named in honor of McCain’s grandfather.
In 1964 McCain became involved with Carol Shepp, a model from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, he had met at Annapolis. They were married in Philadelphia on July 3, 1965.
Flight instructor McCain lost a third aircraft while flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game. Timberg wrote that McCain radioed, “I’ve got a flameout” before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain parachuted onto a beach moments before his plane slammed into a clump of trees.
The Navy dismissed the crash as “unavoidable” and assigned McCain to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal in December 1966, which was patrolling the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean. In Spring 1967, the Forrestal was assigned to join the Operation Rolling Thunder bombing campaign against North Vietnam.
McCain lost his fourth plane on board the Forrestal on July 29, 1967 when a rocket inadvertently slammed into his bomb laden jet. McCain escaped, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors. McCain was transferred from the badly damaged Forrestal to the USS Oriskany. Shortly afterwards, on Oct. 26, 1967, he was shot down and captured by the Vietnamese.
By Will Jones
June 30, 2008 11:29 PM | Link to this
On page 188 of his autobiography “Faith of My Fathers,” McCain admits his incompetence failing to “jink” to avoid the SAM he KNEW was on course to hit him.
We also know he betrayed the mother of his children who waited faithfully for him while a POW, by having an adulterous affair, among others, with the woman to whom he is now married.
We also know the woman who fornicated with a married man and destroyed his marriage is the daughter of a Mafia-frontman.
The Forrestal tragedy on top of all that, particularly his immediate transfer from the ship, has resonance; so too do the accounts of his collaboration with his captors in NVN.
McCain obviously lacks grace and dignity…any watching his antics on TV can see that. Honor seems to be in short supply as well.
Know America’s Foundational Whig Truths
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 11:39 PM | Link to this
To GodHatesTrash:
Listen, if you hate McCain that’s fine. Don’t vote for him.
But your ignorance on the Forrestal incident is astounding. The rocket was from another jet about 50 yds. away from McCain. The rocket hit McCains plane and started the fuel fire. McCain was already in his jet doing his pre-flight for a mission and had nothing to do with the accident.
Did you not read (or comprehend) your own link?
Hey, if any of you guys are buddies with GodHatesTrash you had better rescue him on this one. I noticed you have been quiet but he is really emabarrassing himself on this one.
By The Corporal
June 30, 2008 11:46 PM | Link to this
To GodHatesTrash:
HERE’S YOUR HISTORY LESSON BUDDY………
1) FALSE ACCUSATION BY GODHATESTRASH
By GodHatesTrash
June 30, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this
Here’s the link to the 132 deaths that McCain caused by his negligent arrogant hotdogging
2) INCIDENT ON THE FORRESTAL (JUST GOOGLE IT)
About 10:50 (local time) on the 29th, while preparations for a second strike were being made near 19°9′5″N, 107°23′5″E, an unguided 5-inch Mk-32 “Zuni” rocket, one of four contained in a LAU-10 underwing rocket pod mounted on a F-4 Phantom II, was accidentally fired due to an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power.
The rocket flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on a A-4 Skyhawk awaiting launch, either aircraft No. 405, piloted by LCDR Fred D. White, or No. 416, piloted by future U.S. Senator and Presidential candidate, LCDR John McCain.
3) YOUR CREDIBILITY JUST WENT DOWN THE TUBES.
By Jay's brother
June 30, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this
So kakdee, you seem to be saying that anyone who promises everything and speaks well should be president if the brain dead electorate elects him so—I don’t disagree with that. So in my opinion it’s the citizens duty to not be braindead and not buy hook, line, and sinker about some vague references to “change” and “hope” from a smooth talker. I prefer a more thoughtful evaluation of the president wannabe. So tell me what major landmark legislation Obama as crafted that he is known for. Explain why he voted “present” for countless important bills—was it b/c he wasn’t well informed of the issues or not particularly interested or was that politically calculated for a future presidential bid. Where was his judgment in associating himself with Rev. Wright et al. I mean if Oprah had the wits to distance herself from Wrights venomous remarks and quit the church why didn’t he? No, what you seem to be saying is that that the substance of a persons career history doesn’t matter—this can only mean that you must work in goverment. In the real world it doesn’t work that way. You must think you are voting for president of your kids kindergarten class.
By catlady16
July 1, 2008 12:03 AM | Link to this
Wes Clark’s credentials as a retired four-star general and NATO commander qualify him to make this judgment. Though we recognize and honor Sen. McCain’s service to and suffering for our country, we must not put a halo over it.
McCain’s military history is replete with reckless acts, including crashing more than one fighter jet. His military record and, more importantly, temperament are legitimate issues for discussion—and causes for concern—in selecting our next president and commander-in-chief.
An 81-year-old friend of mine comes from a Navy family and married military men twice. Her brother and only sibling, who (like McCain) was a Navy fighter pilot on a carrier, lost his life when his plane went down, not in Vietnam but in the Korean War. She said virtually the same thing as Gen. Clark about McCain’s level of military service qualifying him (or not) for the presidency—before Clark’s statements were reported in the media. Let’s not forget that several retired military leaders went much farther than Clark in calling McCain “unfit for duty” as commander-in-chief because of his impulsiveness and volatile temper.
We must not give McCain’s military record more weight than it measures in evaluating him for the presidency. His Senate record and temperament are more revealing.
By Hillbilly Deluxe
July 1, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this
There was an earlier comment that John McCain’s being shot down proves he wasn’t a good fighter pilot. Getting shot down doesn’t prove any such thing. Many fighter pilots in all wars get shot down including some of the aces. Baron Manfred von Richthofen would be a prime example.
As to what kind of fighter pilot John McCain was I have no idea. I’ve never been a fighter pilot and am not fit to judge. I’m guessing very few people are.
On a similar note about half of the Medal of Honor winners receive their awards posthumously. The fact they lose their lives doesn’t mean they weren’t skilled soldiers.
By Susan
July 1, 2008 12:15 AM | Link to this
I don’t think that being a POW makes a person a candidate for any office. What does speak volumes about McCain is that he endured this captivity without going completely crazy and losing all sense of direction with his life after being released. Instead he picked himself up, put the body back together as best as possible, and went on to have a very successful and seemingly fulfilling life. As a nation, as a human, we should applaud this special plus about his character that allowed him to rise above an episode in his life that easily could have consumed his life. McCain was challenged like very few of us will ever be challenged and passed with flying colors. I cannot say that Barack has had any such challenge and thus we will not know if pressures mount exactly how Barack will handle the job of being president.
It is clear to me that Wesley Clark’s remarks were given the green light from the Obama camp. It is the typical campaign crap we have all grown to hate and that Barack swore he would not engage in. Barack can try to distance himself all day long from these comments, but I am certain he was well aware of what Clark intended to say. It is what Obama would like to say but instead is letting somebody else do his dirty work. All you Barack supporters should be angry that your candidate has gone back on his word(actually many times) to be the first to “change” the tone of Washington. There is no change and that is really the issue. I do love how the left is proud of Clark and his words of wisdom, but they have absolutely no respect for David Petraeus because he doesn’t represent their view on the war with Iraq. I always liked Clark and in fact was certain Hillary was going to choose him for the VP spot which I thought might be helpful to her. Now I loathe Clark and find his words and insinuations to be despicable.
By kakdee
July 1, 2008 12:54 AM | Link to this
Jay’s brother , June 30, 2008 11:48 PM -
You are just parroting the same mantra conservative cheerleaders rant about on FOX.
But you conveniently ignored my question. What did the “extensive experiences” of Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney do for us after 8 years ?
Please don’t tell me about what people Barack Obama know have done or said. Tell me what Barack Obama himself has done wrong. If ALLL Rev. Wright preached was the 3 looping soundbites Hannity played regularly, then surely, we must see more. Wright preached for over 30 years so we should see AT LEAST 1000 OF SUCH SOUNDBITES IF THAT WAS ALLL HE PREACHED FOR THE 20YEARS THAT OBAMA KNEW HIM AS THE SURROGATES ON FOX WANT US TO BELIEVE.
MY UNCLE HAD THE WITS TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM A CHURCH WHOSE PRIESTS PRIVATELY ABUSED CHILDREN FOR ABOUT 50YEARS…and WORSE OF ALL, covered the acts up! DOES EVERY CONGRESSMAN WHO STILL REMAINS A MEMBER OF THAT CHURCH NOT HAVE “THE RIGHT JUDGEMENT” TO LEAD ???
And oh, I’m sure the character of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld mattered that was why they were put into office a second time, right??? Tell that to your kids in kindergarten class.
kakdee
By daughterofnawpow
July 1, 2008 2:42 AM | Link to this
As a daughter of a nam pow I would like to say that McCain’s time spent in a pow camp does not qualify him to be our president but it sure as hell helps with the pressures he is going to have to endure from the public, congress, foreign relationships and our military. Think about it think about what this man went through when he was in his twenties and tell me if you think Obama could with stand some of the tortures McCain, my father and hundreds of other men went through. And for those of you who will say it couldn’t have been so bad just because you saw Rescue Dawn, believe me when I tell you; those men were nice if the worst thing that happened is they got locked up every night and had very little food to eat. McCain went through things 10 times worse. If people think that great communication skills and “new blood” is what makes a great president; not your morals and character and what trials and tribulations you had to go through to build up those morals and character. Then I guess I am going to vote for a man with character and great strength which gave him his character. I’m voting for the POW! Our country deserves his service as our President!
By karen
July 1, 2008 4:59 AM | Link to this
* HUH? *
What General Clark said is true. Period.
McCain’s heroic personal sacrifice is completely separate from his lack of experience making strategic war decisions.
Nothing can lessen the fact that McCain’s war against Iraq (and Iran?) detracted from the pursuit of al Qaeda. He doesn’t even understand it in retrospect, and it is by FAR the most important strategic decision he’s made.
McCain’s foreign policies are dangerous for America.
And that’s the truth.
By Copyleft
July 1, 2008 7:42 AM | Link to this
Clark: Former general and NATO commander.
McCain: Pilot who lost his plane and got captured.
Now, what was that about credibility and experience…?
By hillbilly ragger
July 1, 2008 7:42 AM | Link to this
Corporal @ 9.35, you are lying again.
Kerry did not call you a “baby killer”.
Keep on lying, and I will keep on calling you on your BS. (Furthermore, you seem unable to distinguish between the words “Ragger” and “Deluxe.”)
Winslo @ 9.40, cite an instance where Kerry gave “false” testimony, in his 1971 appearance before the Senate committee or anywhere else at any other time.
Susan @ 12.15, you write “I am certain he (Obama) was well aware of what Clark intended to say” — really?
As an Obama supporter, all I can say is “would that it were so. Y’see, given that Wes Clark’s controversial statement was in direct response to a question by Bob Schieffer, that’d mean Obama is such a brilliant prognosticator that he knew Bob Schieffer would opine ““Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down”?
Or that maybe the Obama campaign has hired Bob Schieffer as a secret agent.
I think Obama’s pretty good. I don’t think he’s that good.
By hillbilly ragger
July 1, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this
CopyLeft, about Wes Clark—few seem to credit him here with not just leadership capability, but with bravery, himself. Don’t forget that Clark took four 7.62 rounds of enemy fire from an AK47 in his right shoulder, right hand, right hip, and right leg, while in Viet Nam.
Seems there’s this 1995 incident in the Balkans everyone here’s forgotten about as well (from the wiki, although it’s cited left and right):
While the team was driving along a mountain road during the first week, the road gave way, and one of the vehicles fell over a cliff carrying passengers including Holbrooke’s deputy, Robert Frasure, a deputy assistant Secretary of Defense, Joseph Kruzel, and Air Force Colonel Nelson Drew. Clark and Holbrooke attempted to crawl down the mountain, but were driven back by sniper fire. Once the fire ceased, Clark rappelled down the mountain to collect the bodies of two dead Americans left by Bosnian forces that had taken the wounded to a nearby hospital.
Go ahead, McCain supporters—
call this man “some old has been used up hack” (DeKalb Voter @ 4.48).
Say that “He failed as a commander” (sunshine @ 6.36).
Say that he’s “an educated moron” (herb @ 7.39).
Hell, even turn on the guy, as Susan @ 12.45 does, and say that you now “loathe” him, on account of his honest response to a direct line of inquiry from a TV host.
See where it gets you this time.
I repeat: 2008 ain’t 2004.
By Truth
July 1, 2008 8:14 AM | Link to this
All of this talk is gonna come back to bite Barak Hussein in his butt!
By Jay's brother
July 1, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this
So Kakdee
Let’s agree for arguments sake that you are correct that Bush did not have the qualifications to be president—much like Obama is now. Does that mean b/c America made a mistake in choosing an inexperienced conservative president that it’s ok to do so now? Why? B/c Obama is a liberal? Seems pretty childish to me. I think most Americans agree that the substance in the body of work of a particular candidate is important. So please answer this and not dodge this: Why did Obama vote “present” on countless bills? What major landmark legislation did he personally craft and push for? Why did he promise to take public funds and then break that? (did he not know when he made that promise that the well funded right wing “hate machine” exist?)
By hillbilly hussein ragger
July 1, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this
“Truth”, cite something. Anything. Give it a try.
What “talk” is “gonna come back to bite” the next President of the United States, Barack Obama?
Oh, and do go on playing up the “Hussein” middle name. More of us are adopting it onscreen. Hell, I’ll do it too, just to p!ss you off.
Like it? I may keep it for awhile.
By Truth
July 1, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this
You want me to cite something??? How about this…
“The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.” —Winston Churchill
Let’s just say I don’t care too much for all of you muslim sympathizers…:)
By WFC
July 1, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this
This blog conversation is living evidence that a large segment of the American population isn’t competent to elect a dog-catcher, much less a president. None of this BS will help solve the very real problems America faces in 2008.
By WFC
July 1, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this
This blog conversation is living evidence that a large segment of the American population isn’t competent to elect a dog-catcher, much less a president. None of this BS will help solve the very real problems America faces in 2008.
By hillbilly hussein ragger
July 1, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
Jay’s brother @ 8.28, you’re not exactly starting on the right foot when your very first question contains the mush-word “countless.”
Obama’s record in the state legislature and in the US Senate is a matter of public record. If you want to make a claim that he abstained from taking a position more often than is the norm, make it. If you want to sound real impressive and give us just the raw number of times he’s voted “present” without any context, that’s acceptable, I suppose (albeit weasel-y.)
But don’t give us this “countless bills” crap.
If you can’t be honest in your questioning, how can you expect an honest answer, from Kakdee or anyone else?
By JW
July 1, 2008 8:54 AM | Link to this
Thanks for bringing up 2004 and how the GOP treated Kerry’s service. They also did the same thing withe Gore’s. All of the cry babies sound so disingeneous. What the GOP really can’t believe is that the Democrats have a candidate with a backbone who is ready and willing to go toe-to-toe with all of their antics.
By JW
July 1, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
DeKalb Voter wrote:
June 30, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
You must have really long arms to reach so far into the bottom of the barrel to dig up what some old has been used up hack such as Clark has to say. Didn’t America send him packing in a prior election? Do you think anyone cares what this old hack has to say? This is the best you got? He is whoring for a job.Are you talking about Clark or McCain? The shoe fits both.
By hillbilly hussein ragger
July 1, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this
Hey, “Truth,” you’re damn right I’m a “muslim sympathizer.” You got a problem with that?
Last I checked, your Preznit referred to Islam as a “religion of peace.” we were supposed to be over there in Iraq to help a predominantly Muslim country find its way to peace and democracy. Remember?
Which means your Preznit is a “muslim sympathizer” too.
WTF is your problem, anyway? Dropped on your head at birth?
By Truth
July 1, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
My problem is that I am a hard working American that loves his country. My grandfathers fought for the freedom that I cherish so dearly and I refuse to let the anti-American socialist who are muslim sympathizers take it away! When anyone like the “Preznit” says that they say it becasue they have to be politically correct to make all of you happy. We all know the muslim religion isn’t peaceful at all.
….and why are you so angry?
By James
July 1, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this
To GodHatesTrash:
HERE’S YOUR HISTORY LESSON BUDDY………
1) FALSE ACCUSATION BY GODHATESTRASH
By GodHatesTrash
June 30, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this
Here’s the link to the 132 deaths that McCain caused by his negligent arrogant hotdogging
2) INCIDENT ON THE FORRESTAL (JUST GOOGLE IT)
About 10:50 (local time) on the 29th, while preparations for a second strike were being made near 19°9′5″N, 107°23′5″E, an unguided 5-inch Mk-32 “Zuni” rocket, one of four contained in a LAU-10 underwing rocket pod mounted on a F-4 Phantom II, was accidentally fired due to an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power.
The rocket flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on a A-4 Skyhawk awaiting launch, either aircraft No. 405, piloted by LCDR Fred D. White, or No. 416, piloted by future U.S. Senator and Presidential candidate, LCDR John McCain.
3) YOUR CREDIBILITY JUST WENT DOWN THE TUBES.
I’m waiting …………….
By GOPs got to go
July 1, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
Trichotillomania, Word of the day today. Certainly describes what I want to do when I read all this nonsensical banter.
Hillbilly Ragger has it right. What ever Wes Clark had to say was from Wes Clark. Thinking Obama has the ability to somehow predict questions coming for an interviewer is absurd. Unless of course it was a questioned posed to Bush at his invitation only Q & A sessions.
I plan on voting for Obama. With that said, I do not think that McCain is a bad person or incapable of leading. I applaud any one who served this Country, especially one who endured the Hanoi Hilton for any length of time. He served, which is more than can be said of Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld or there respective children.
I do think that the office of President of the US of A needs to be held by someone with above average intelligence. I believe there is some thing to the reputation of the all out hard, party guy that is probably true of McCain. Is West Point a difficult school, yes. Does it compare to Harvard, no.
Clearly Iraq is a debacle. Anyone who can not see that is blind, stupid or both. I think whom ever wins the election is in for deep dodo from the Iraq mistake. Even the Military top brass have said as much recently, stating that Tommy Franks had grossly under estimated the troops needed to occupy the country. I think Hillary had the best and most informed plan for exiting Iraq, which is one reason I believe she should be on the ticket or given a cabinet post.
Come on people, we are all Americans as are the Candidates. They all love this country. That silliness needs to be but to bed.
By hillbilly hussein ragger
July 1, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this
WFC @ 8.44, while I’m somewhat partial to what you posted— well, no, it isn’t.
This blog conversation is precisely representative of the types of people who trouble themselves to click on a link within an online editorial and mix it up with others.
It is representative of nothing more or less than that.
By James
July 1, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this
To HillBilly Ragger:
I must assume at your ignorance that you have never even watched the entire tape of his testimony.
By hillbilly hussein ragger
July 1, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this
Got to go @ 9.13, yeah. Like you say.
It probably shouldn’t be necessary, but I’ll go on record as condemning anyone who calls into question McCain’s own love for his country. For the record, I find much of what God Hates Trash rather repulsive; while a man’s service history deserves to be reviewed and considered, the trashy way you’re presenting that history is little better than the way the Sh!t Float Liars manipulated events and accounts in order to slime John Kerry.
Truth @ 9.09, I’m angry here in part because Kerry was, and is, a good man who was stabbed in the back by a cadre of well-financed thugs. John McCain knows this, too (and to his credit, he strongly condemned the Sh!t Float Liars’ ads in 2004.)
Seeing those lies repeated here, four years on… well let’s just say I’m not going to be sweetness and light.
By hillbilly hussein ragger
July 1, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this
James, I have read the entire transcript of Kerry’s 1971 testimony, yes.
Where is the “false testimony?”
He was there to (among other things) pass along the accounts of fellow Vietnam veterans who’d experienced the kinds of horrors while carrying out what had become a largely pointless mission over there.
If you believe that those accounts themselves were “false” then take it up with the soldiers who provided them, not with Kerry.
By Eric1
July 1, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this
Wes Clark was right.
By Truth
July 1, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this
HILBILLY RAGGER
Kerry was stabbed in the back????? He stabbed every soldier in Vietnam in the back!!!! He is sooooo far from a good man.
By typicalwhiteperson
July 1, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
Being a state senator from illinois, US senator for two years and oh I forgot COMMUNITY ORGANIZER now thats quite a resume’ for President of the US
By hillbilly ragger
July 1, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
Truth, cite, please, when and where John Kerry “stabbed every soldier in Vietnam in the back”.
By Goldie
July 1, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
I, too, am a hard working American that loves her country. My grandfathers fought for the freedom that I cherish so dearly and I refuse to let the right-wingnut extremists continue to bankrupt and take this country down to its knees any longer!
Obama/Clark ‘08!
By Goldie
July 1, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this
And being a 30-year Senator who was a member of the Keating Five, now THAT’S quite a resume’ for President of the USA…
By smartwhiteperson
July 1, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
That Wes Clark’s vanilla remark was able to so hurt McSame only confirms the old birds ‘emotional old man syndrome.’ While it’s one thing to wear a diaper, non stop bawling might get in the way of the job.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
The planes involved were preparing to takeoff for sorties over North Vietnam. McCain “wet-started” his plane, sending a huge flame towards the plane behind him on deck, setting off a rocket that fired.
Then John “Jonas” McCain III then went from hot dog to scared rabbit - in his panic to leave his plane, he hit a switch that dropped his bombload into the flaming fuel on the deck. These bombs caused the second explosion.
The other pilot died in the fires. McCain emerged unscathed. Then McCain became the only non-injured sailor evacuated from the Forrestal. He never returned to that ship, immediately reassigned to the Oriskany (and the only sailor transferred off the ship) by John McCain Jr., his pappy.
By TW
July 1, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
GodHatesTrash - surely you jest!
Do the sh!t float veterans know about any of this????
By The Corporal
July 1, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
To HillBillyRagger, GodHatesTrash, et al:
You guys are beyond help. I’m not trying to be unkind but I really do think you need counseling.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
McCain was at Ground Zero of the Forrestal Fire, and the very first man on the scene. He doesn’t get scratched.
134 men died fighting that fire that day. McCain unscratched… no wonder they took him off the ship - he would have been fragged…
By Nobama
July 1, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
In just a few weeks, Obama surrogates all have some things derogative to say about McCain’s military service. Then Obama denounces their comments. Post-political….my rear end. Hypocrite coward…that’s Obama. Politics as usual…Yep…Obama too. No one should be foolish enough to see Obama as somehow above the hard knuckled politics of Chicago. He is just a hypocrite for pretending to be so.
Wes Clark…military hack for sale.
Jay Bookman…willingly cooperates with the smear. No charge
By The Corproal
July 1, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this
To GodHatesTrash:
As I said - you need counseling.
P.S. They don’t normally issues grenades on aircraft carriers. He would have had to have been thrown overboard. But since you never served (or if you did you didn’t pay attention) I guess you wouldn’t know that.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
Despite his actions that day, McCain 2008 whitewashes this so that you would think he was some kind of hero…
By hillbilly ragger
July 1, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
Corporal, or is it “Corpoal” — having trouble keeping your sockpuppets straight, are you?
Just for the record: You can’t provide an example of Kerry’s “false testimony.” Nor can you back up your claim that he called you a “baby killer.”
By Mike
July 1, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Having served in the military doesn’t automatically qualify anyone for the presidency or any other public office, but it does seem odd that Wesley Clark certainly played his up when he ran in ‘04.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
After a decade working for and with defense contractors on large scale communications and weapons development projects, I worked for a large government organization with a strong international presence based out of northern VA for awhile in the ’90s until 2002, on projects related to Eastern Europe, the former Soviet republics, the PRC and South Asia/Middle East.
Yes, what I’ve been involved with related to national security and defense is not the same as that which might be experienced by, say, a Marine or US Army corporal, typically.
Which is definitely what General Clark, a four-star General with experience directing strategic commands, and experience as Supreme Allied Commmander of NATO, is trying to say about everyone’s favorite captive, John S. McCain III’s claim to defense expertise. Seven years in the Hanoi Hilton was not much of a learning environment, as least related to military strategy and command.
By the way, is it you that likes to use the term “I’ve seen the elephant”?
I do too, every time I take a leak. Bada-BUMP!
(I was using the term fragged as a generic for soldiers/seamen killing their officers. )
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
Mike, being Supreme Commander of NATO is qualitatively a higher - that is better - level of experience than - a) crashing 5 planes and spending 7 years in a POW camp, or even b) winning a Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts on a riverboat. General Wesley Clark is an accomplished soldier and manager, that’s the only way you get the positions he got. Lt. Commander John S. McCain III got his positions because his daddy was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr and his granddaddy was Admiral John S. McCain. And he got to be a US Senator by throwing over his first wife for a rich woman.
America can’t survive the arrogant incompetence of another legacy, another Bush.
By TW
July 1, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this
Being that the last time out the GOP went with the guy who his underneath his daddy’s bed during Viet Nam, going with the guy who got shot down this time is still a step up.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
True TW. And, since McCain was in lockdown for seven years, he couldn’t go AWOL either, like the Chickenhawk in Chief did.
No cocaine in the Hanoi Hilton either. And no drunk driving around Kennebunkport.
But, let’s face it - it’s damn near impossible to be a more worthless piece of crap than George Dumbya Bush.
By Goldie
July 1, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
There’s probably plenty of AZ citizens who understand too well just how much McBush is just another con-man:
The story of “the Keating Five” has become a scandal rivaling Teapot Dome and Watergate. The outcome will be decided, not in a courtroom, but probably on national television.— Those who survive will be the sociopaths who can tell a lie with the most sincere, straight face. You are especially adept at this.
And I wonder if McBush’s ex-wife might have anything to add about his sociopathic tendencies? Anyone???
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
Great link, Goldie. McCain’s character is weak, weak, weak.
He leaves his first wife because she was crippled in a car wreck. Weak.
He calls his current wife the c-word and a trollop - in front of reporters. Weak.
He cut quid pro quo deals with glad-handing scum like Charlie Keating. Weak. Weak. Weak.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
Actually, IMHO, McCain is probably right about Cindy, you just don’t say those kinds of things about your wife, and certainly not in public.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this
I was just wondering - if McCain ends up in the WH, do you think Cindy will move in her pool boys?
By The good side
July 1, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
Replubicans really need to grow up!
When Mr. Rove started that rumor about Mr. McClain having an illegitmate child you all voted for Mr. Bush.
Now when Mr. Rove did that I did not see all you righteous people speaking out against an outright lie.
It is amazing the double standard mind set in this country.
We have someone talking about affirmative action with just that you can become the CEO of General Electric, Microsoft etc. As if that is all you need to become something great in this country.
Mr. McClain is a fine,heroic American but he does not have leadership qualities.
Poorly ran campaign year after year. That is the first start any of you dummies should look at when selecting a THE PRESIDENT who can run a campaign because if you cannot run your campaigm how are you going to run the country!
Please tell me how does that work!
By TW
July 1, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Trash - Especially if he called her that back when she was heavy into her drug addiction. Really, though, if it was the stress of the Keating Five Scandal that turned her into a pill head, than McSame owns part of that, too.
Shame on McSame for chasing Cindy into the oxy bottle.
Shame.
By Slick
July 1, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this
Wesley Clark did not “insult” or “dis” John McCain. He told the truth in response to a question he was asked. Serving as a POW does not improve ones qualifications to be president, nor does getting shot down over enemy territory.
Sounds like truth to me…
And one more time: McCain was NOT a FIGHTER pilot. He was an ATTACK pilot. There is a big difference between the two.
And being the best pilot in a squadron does not qualify one to be the Commander. Many other qualities and skills are necessary, and airmanship is only one of them.
By The Corporal
July 1, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
To GodHatesTrash:
Sorry I misspelled Corporal (Corpoal). Sometimes when I type fast it’s like when I shoot on full auto. Every once in awhile you miss the head shot.
“Proud to have served for others who are kept by better men than themselves” ……… pssst. “and they know it” ………
By Jay's brother
July 1, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
Hillbilly,
Since you have artfully dodged the question I posed to Kakdee earlier by diverting attention to the term “countless” times, HRC own campaign during the primary season point out that Obama voted 129 times to vote “present” instead of taking a position. Is that “countless” enough for you. Now putting that diversionary tactic on your part aside, I will pose once again the question to you and Kakdee:
So please answer this and not dodge this: Why did Obama vote “present” on countless bills? What major landmark legislation did he personally craft and push for? Why did he promise to take public funds and then break that? (did he not know when he made that promise that the well funded right wing “hate machine” exist?)
Let’s see if you have some intelligent explanations instead of unintelligent insults.
By rightytighty
July 1, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
The constitution is our obvious guide on the qualifications of the presidency. No.., being a fighter pilot is not one of them. But it wasn’t what Clark said that was so troubling; it was the hateful smear of a way in which he said it. And that coming from a four star US General, retired or not, is unacceptable..
By The good side
July 1, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
TO Jay’s Brother,
Can you tell me what Mr. McClan has done in 30 years of service?
For Mr. Obama again since you don’t want to recognize real game.
Co-wrote a bill to stop NUCLEAR prolification in rogue countries.
Wrote a bill to fund the World heatlh organization to stop avain flu and other diseases.
Organize a incredible campaign based upon new ideas and adding new people to defeat one of the most historic political figures in the US.
Mr. McClain did defeat (Romney I tell you anything you want to hear for your vote)
Or Huckleby I do knw much about foreign policy or the economy but I woud like to get your vote.
Sometimes Jay’s brother we have to acknowledge we need new leadership and Mr. Obama has the intellect plus the team building skills to lead this country.
Look at Mr. Obama team he has assembled!
Don’t hate congratalute!
By rightytighty
July 1, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
McCain’s actions during his military service showed great character in the face of an unthinkable situations, which is what is needed to lead this country.
Obama’s actions in the face of a little flack over religion. Gave up his curch, pastor of over 20 years and grandmother. Character references!?
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
Better stay off of full auto there, Corporal - you’ll blow your feet to smithereens the way you shoot.
Seen any elephants today? Lots of ‘em I bet.
You are so just like your mother.
By Jay's brother
July 1, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
Good side:
Gosh, after 6 yrs in the Senate, you bring up TWO whole obscure bills co-authored by Obama and some subjective statement about a historic campaign with “new ideas”.
You’re right. I’m so sorry. With a resume like that, how could I DARE question his qualification for president. You also dodged the issue of “present” voting 129 times and breaking a campaign promise to accept public funds
By Richard
July 1, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
At least John McCain served this country with honor. Who did Obama serve? He just started wearing the American Flag pin due to crticisms and what is his problem with the pledge of allegiance. I feel if anyone is to lead America this person must have been led himself. For General Clark what has Obama promised you in return for your idiotic statements about one of Americas heroes?
By The Corporal
July 1, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
To GodHatesTrash:
I have determined you are a teenager. That explains a lot.
No harm done.
By Winslo
July 1, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
Hey GodHatestrash guy …….
do you even know what that elephant thing is Corporal is talking about ?
By The good side
July 1, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
Once again please tell me what Mr. McClain has done?
Did you defend Mr. McClain when Bush and Rove started he had a child out of wedlock?
C’mon quit being jealous! It is time for a change and we have to do it now!
Look at this country the Republicans and Democrats have allow the border to be open for years because they all represent business interests.
That is why you should never elect a person who is already wealthy.Their goal is to bring in laws to benefit their business interest.
Wake-up America we will be left with poor an rich.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
Winslo, alot of you GOPers like to look for the elephants in the airport mens room - you know, like Larry Craig ;->
By Winslo
July 1, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this
To GodHatesTrash:
Hey, I just wanted to know and I thought you did the way you guys were going back and forth. What the heck does it mean?
By Frederick Douglass
July 1, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this
Grassy Knoll shooter identified: Forensic anthropologists attached to the Texas Rangers have tentatively determined the identity of the alleged “Grassy Knoll” shooter. Formerly existing only in the minds of conspiracy theorists, the “Grassy Knoll” shooter has long been dismissed as pure folly by conventional thinkers. However; recent cold case snooping has uncovered proof that an Iowa couple visiting Texas with their 2 1/2 year old bi-racial grandson might have been involved. The names of the couple has been deemed unimportant since the tot apparently acted alone under his own volition. Authorities close to the case would only say that the errant youth is now an Illinois senator seeking to become the first of his race to occupy the White house.
By GodHatesTrash
July 1, 2008 9:07 PM | Link to this
Some people who have been to war (or near a war, or who were in the service while a war was going on) like to romanticize it, and “seen the elephant” is one of the euphemisms they use to mean that they’ve been in battle.
Hint: use the google on the internets. Even Dumbya can do it, or so he says.
By Hillbilly Deluxe
July 1, 2008 9:07 PM | Link to this
What politician isn’t a con man?
By Mike S
July 1, 2008 11:42 PM | Link to this
Look at the video carefully: Clark was returning the sneer thrown at him by Bob Schieffer. Clark, who was wounded 4 times in Vietnam, already had said he respected McCain for his service. But he was, in effect, merely a high-tech pencil pusher, clicking on a button to drop his payload as directed by his superiors.
By Evan
July 2, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
John Sidney McCain III entered the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis, Maryland in 1954. Young McCain wanted to become an admiral. He planned to be the “first son and grandson of four star admirals” to achieve such a distinction. But that was not to be. McCain III possessed none of the innate character and discipline traits that helped mold his father and grandfather into great military leaders.
His father, John S. “Junior” McCain, and grandfather, John S. McCain, Sr., were famous four-star Admirals in the U.S. Navy. His father commanded U.S. forces in Europe before becoming commander of American forces fighting in Vietnam. His grandfather commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945. Both men became highly influential in U.S. Navy operations.
At the Academy, aside being known as a “rowdy, raunchy, underachiever” who resented authority, Midshipman McCain became infamous as a leader among his fellow midshipmen for organizing “off-Yard activities” and hard drinking parties. Robert Timberg wrote in his book, The Nightingale’s Song, that “being on liberty with John McCain was like being in a train wreck.”
McCain’s grades were “marginal.” He drew so many demerits for breaking curfew and other discipline issues that he graduated fifth from the bottom of the class of 1958. Despite his low “class standing,” and no doubt because of the influence of his family of famous Admirals, McCain was leap-frogged ahead of more qualified applicants and granted a coveted slot to be trained as a navy pilot.
Good Party Animal - Bad Pilot:
He spent the next two and a half years as a “naval aviator in training” at Naval Air Station Pensacola in Florida and Naval Air Station Corpus Christi in Texas, flying A-1 Skyraiders.
While a pilot trainee, McCain continued to party hard. He drove a Corvette and dated an exotic dancer named “Marie the Flame of Florida.” Timberg wrote that McCain “learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn’t love it.”
McCain Lost Five Military Aircraft
McCain, the “below par” pilot, eventually lost 5 military aircraft, the first during a training flight in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while trying to land. The Navy ignored the crash and graduated McCain in 1960.
While deployed in the Mediterranean, the hard partying McCain lost a second aircraft. Timberg described the crash: “Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral.”
Unscathed, McCain returned to Pensacola Station where he was promoted to flight instructor for Naval Air Station Meridian in Mississippi. The airfield at Meridian, McCain Field, was named in honor of McCain’s grandfather.
In 1964 McCain became involved with Carol Shepp, a model from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, he had met at Annapolis. They were married in Philadelphia on July 3, 1965.
Flight instructor McCain lost a third aircraft while flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game. Timberg wrote that McCain radioed, “I’ve got a flameout” before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain parachuted onto a beach moments before his plane slammed into a clump of trees.
The Navy dismissed the crash as “unavoidable” and assigned McCain to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal in December 1966, which was patrolling the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean. In Spring 1967, the Forrestal was assigned to join the Operation Rolling Thunder bombing campaign against North Vietnam.
McCain lost his fourth plane on board the Forrestal on July 29, 1967 when a rocket inadvertently slammed into his bomb laden jet. McCain escaped, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors. McCain was transferred from the badly damaged Forrestal to the USS Oriskany. Shortly afterwards, on Oct. 26, 1967, he was shot down and captured by the Vietnamese.
Post-POW Years: Political Ambition and a New, Young, Rich Wife
Upon his release from North Vietnam and return to the United States in 1973, McCain reunited with his wife, Carol, who had been permanently crippled in a car accident while he was a POW.
Still yearning to become an admiral, McCain enrolled in the National War College at Fort McNair in Washington, D.C. and underwent physical therapy in order to fly again. The Navy excused his permanent disabilities and reinstated him to flight status, effectively positioning him for promotion.
Timberg described McCain’s advancement: “in the fall of 1974, McCain was transferred to Jacksonville as the executive officer of Replacement Air Group 174, the long-sought flying billet at last a reality. A few months later, he assumed command of the RAG, which trained pilots and crews for carrier deployments. The assignment was controversial, some calling it favoritism, a sop to the famous son of a famous father and grandfather, since he had not first commanded a squadron, the usual career path.”
While Executive Officer and later as Squadron Commander McCain used his authority to arrange frequent flights that allowed him to carouse with subordinates and “engage in extra-marital affairs.”
This was a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice rules against adultery and fraternization with subordinates. But, as with all his other past behaviors, McCain was never penalized; instead he always got away with his transgressions.
Timberg wrote, “Off duty, usually on routine cross-country flights to Yuma and El Centro, John started carousing and running around with women. To make matters worse, some of the women with whom he was linked by rumor were subordinates … At the time the rumors were so widespread that, true or not, they became part of McCain’s persona, impossible not to take note of.”
In early 1977, Admiral Jim Holloway, Chief of Naval Operations promoted McCain to captain and transferred him from his command position “to Washington as the number-two man in the Navy’s Senate liaison office. McCain was promptly given total control of the office. It wasn’t long before the “fun loving and irreverent” McCain had turned the liaison office into a “late-afternoon gathering spot where senators and staffers, usually from the Armed Services and Foreign Relations committees, would drop in for a drink and the chance to unwind.”
In 1979, while attending a military reception in Hawaii, McCain met and fell in love with Cindy Lou Hensley, 17 years his junior, who was the daughter of James W. Hensley, a wealthy Anheuser-Busch distributor from Phoenix, Arizona. McCain filed for and obtained an uncontested divorce from his wife in Florida on April 2, 1980 and promptly married Cindy on May 17, 1980.
He resigned from the Navy in 1981 and went to work for his father-in-law in Phoenix; where he used the opportunity to make powerful and wealthy friends in Arizona including banker Charles Keating and Duke Tully, the editor-in-chief of the Arizona Republic. Keating was later convicted of fraud, racketeering, and conspiracy and Tully was disgraced for concocting a phony military record of combat in Korea and Vietnam including medals for heroism.
McCain ran for Arizona’s First Congressional District in 1982. McCain won the congressional seat. In 1987 McCain was elected to the Senate.
By wisk
July 2, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this
Governor Frank Keating posted an interesting response defending John McCain at TheRelevantElephant.com
By Will Jones
July 3, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
When asked how his experiences in Vietnam would help him as president, McCain was stumped, uttering “Please”…”please.”
“Bachelor” Senator Graham had to jump in and bail him out.
That McCain had no answer with almost forty years to think about it is extremely telling about which side of history he sits.
Th. Jefferson and Dr. King teach Americans how to think about history and Vietnam.
We were sent there as catspaw for the interests served by the traitors who assassinated our Commander-in-Chief, six weeks after NSAM263 ordered our military withdrawal: that which America’s Founder, Mr. Jefferson, identified as “the real Anti-Christ.”
McCain, raised by Roman Catholics, growing up on Capitol Hill currying favor with “bachelor” Senators and powerful Congressmen, is a Tory, with no sense of the lesson of Vietnam: false war is treason and the Bushes have been fronting for the Vatican-banker Rockefellers, who built Standard Oil on unredressed murder and arson, for five generations.
As he collaborated with the North Vietnamese to improve his lot then, he betrayed his faithful wife to marry the Mob and now fronts for the corrupt, treasonous faction which committed 9-11 to send us to false war now. He is no patriot, and no man.
P.S. In his autobiography he admits the circumstances of his being shot down: martial incompetence. Whether he, in fact, caused the conflagration on the Forrestal remains to be proved. The “wet-start” explanation coheres. Any eyewitnesses of the flame from his jet cooking off the Zuni on the F-4 directly behind him? Or were they all killed by the bombs McCain dropped on the deck?
P.P.S. The Keatings are in the same tier of Roman Catholic Fifth Column clans as the Buckleys, Carrolls, Booths, and the Mob.
By Abundant Pundit
July 3, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this
McCain’s wet start was his only mistake, but he wont admit it.
The sidewinder probably dislodged the bombs under his jet. That’s not his fault, he didnt’ do that on purpose.
He needs to admit his role in the catastrophe, and then maybe he’ll be fit 2B our prez.
Maybe.
By plcapeli
July 3, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
bookman i think you are an agent fro the fascists , i learned of your deviance upon reading your shameful and unfair obit on george carlin, i will forever think of you this way and will tellother of your shamefull allegances
By swede
July 3, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
I agree, McCain was shot down and became a prisoner of war. Many others have been shot down. A true hero in my mind is Audry Murphy. Marines that raised the flag at Iwo Jima. Ted Williams who served in WW2 and Korea. So please don’t make McCain more than what he is, an unlucky guy who got shoot down and became a prisoner. The true hero’s are the guys and gals who have lost limb’s and the ones that didn’t come back.
By eliana
July 4, 2008 8:19 PM | Link to this
Ladies and gentlemen of the press, thank you for meeting me at this Captain D’s Seafood Kitchen as I elaborate on the comments of my client, Wesley Clark.
First off, Gen. Clark’s comments were taken wildly out of context. Yes, he said, “I don’t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president,” but also unspoken and implied is that Sen. McCain failed to find his way back to friendly territory like you see in the movies all the time. What message are we sending to our hopeful, cinephile youth if we elect this kind of quitter?
See more here: http://www.236.com/news/2008/07/03/theworldsworstprguyspins6_7512.php
By kevin knapp
July 22, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
clarks comments are right on.i dont care if somebody has been in the military or not.in this testosterone driven dumbass country,(see terrorist fist jab.),we need brains and clever diplomacy.neither mccain,or the current monkey in the whitehouse are capable of either.