Home > Jay Bookman > Archives > 2008 > May > 30 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USVolunteer or draftee? What’s the difference?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Whenever the conversation turns to the toll taken by our twin wars in Iraq and Afghanistan — the more than 4,000 dead, the tens of thousands with post-traumatic stress syndrome, the many thousands with permanent brain injuries — someone always points out that, well, they volunteered for it.
I’ve never understood that. If those soldiers and Marines had been drafted, would their sacrifice be any greater? Is the death of an enlistee somehow less tragic than that of a draftee, as in Vietnam? Do their loved ones grieve any less?
The real difference is political. As long as we can tell ourselves that they volunteered for this, we can worry less about them. And we all know what would happen if we suddenly had to turn to a draft to fill out the ranks in Iraq and Afghanistan: The war would be over, or at least the part of it occurring in Iraq. And you do have to question the morality of a war that we sustain only as long as most of our kids are protected against having to fight in it.
In effect, we are doing just what we did in the early years of Vietnam with college draft deferments, before we acknowledged the immorality of the practice. We are protecting our elite, college-bound students from serving, while their less-educated peers with from less affluent backgrounds bear the brunt of the fighting and dying.
Explain to me how that is right.
Comments
By Thor
May 30, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
I believe in the draft, if done fairly. Too many families don’t care about the war because it doesn’t effect them. After all, their son has plans to head off to UGA this fall and start a good job when he graduates. Why should they care about a war - it doesn’t effect them.
Re-instate the draft. Rather than place a flag on your car or a yellow ribbon in “support”, make everyone serve
By Servedmyfour
May 30, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this
I support a military service draft. I also support a larger and stronger military. We will need it to defend our own cities and borders after we flee Iraq.
By atlpaddy
May 30, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this
Jay, surely you understand that many patriotic Americans, such as RealityKing and others on this blog, better serve the Republican war effort from the safety of their parent’s basement, behind their computer keyboards with powdered donuts easily within reach.
By Thor
May 30, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
Most people in suburbian can tell you all about their favorite football team in detail or about who won American Idol. Very few know what’s going on in Iraq. I don’t care what your position is, too many people just don’t care while our soldiers get blown up every day and die.
Its disgusting - apathy.
By Eric1
May 30, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
“We’ll need it to protect our own cities and borders after we flee Iraq”??? What in the hell does that mean? Who helped you get dressed in the mornings while you ‘servedmyfour’? Einstein!
By ga_tech_92
May 30, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
“I believe in the draft, if done fairly.” The second half of this statement is the absolutely inarguable problem with the draft. One thing history shows is that people of influence absolutely DO have connections and ability to avoid things like the draft. Similarly, I’ve known people who are convinced that they were drafted because some bitter person reported them falsely as being childless or similar. The bottom line is, unless we are in dire straights, there should never ever be a draft. It was shown to be immoral during Vietnam. Are we as a people stupid enough to repeat any immoral practice? Are we stupid enough to GIVE people of influence one more system that they can abuse. You might say, ‘well if it was done fairly’, but I say, GROW UP…politics and people of influence NEVER do things fairly. You are only opening up a system which will be able to allow people of influence MORE ability to pick and choose people to go risk their lives in war. Do you really think that the politician X’s son will be drafted? Grow up. Don’t ever ever ever think that reinstating something that was proven immoral is a good idea … and never ever be stupid enough to think that politics or the world is fair. At least now, these people of influence can only risk the lives of people who volunteered. Granted, their lives are just as valuable as anyone elses, I would suggest their lives are MORE valuable because of the honor in their hearts to volunteer….however….reinstating a draft would only put more lives at risk and create yet ONE MORE system for people of influence to abuse. Don’t be short-sighted. Don’t repeat an immoral history’s practice. I think Thomas Jefferson said it well, “Most bad government has grown out of too much government”. Can we eventually learn that we need LESS GOVERNMENT, not more??? This country grows weaker and weaker every year, as the government grows larger. It’s not a coincidence.
By Thor
May 30, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this
Do what the Israeli’s do: everyone must serve a hitch in the military.
The American people are disconnected with this war and simply do not care anymore.
By RealityKing
May 30, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this
The college draft deferment is just that.., a max 4 year deferment to give you time to graduate college. At which point you will be promptly drafted in the military as an OFFICER. You do understand the need for military officers right?
By Thor
May 30, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
Hey RealityKing,
Osama Bin Laden: Sunni or Shiite?
By ga_tech_92
May 30, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
I’m strongly against ‘everyone must serve a hitch’; however, history and my gut tell me that politicians and people of great influence will find someway around that for THEIR loved ones. So, effectively, it will punish all the wrong people. Let people volunteer, if they so choose to do so. Otherwise, you are opening even more people’s lives up for abuse. We need to remove 90% of government positions and never replace them. Changing the parts doesn’t fix problems, it only changes them. Remove the parts permanently…but…that will never happen…will it…we are doomed because politicians are in business to make promises to get elected……..politicians are NOT (almost without exception) in business to do what’s best for the country.
A good analogy is this: Think of a house as a country. Think of the people in that house as the people in said country. Now, lets imagine that there are two people (parents) vying for political power in the house (hand). Let’s also imagine that this is decided by voting.
Parent1 says: If you vote me into power, I’ll make sure you study harder than you ever have, because that’s good for you. I’ll make sure you continue getting your allowance, but I’ll make sure you save more of it, because you’ve been wasting it and it’s important to learn good saving habits. I’ll make sure you watch less TV and video games, because they are in no way good for you. I’ll make sure you stick to your bed time, exercise more, and eat more healthy food, because that’s good for you. Vote for me!
Parent2 says: Kids, did you hear Parent1? Wow, he thinks this is medieval times or something, you aren’t surfs; you are people who need to live and love life! When you vote for me, I’ll increase your allowance and you can spend it anyway you want. I’ll let you stay up an extra hour late every night; you are mature enough to stay up later. I think you are doing great in school, so you can spend half an hour less on homework each night. You can eat what you want; I’ll let you pick our meals. Vote for me!
Who do you think is good for that country?…who do you think will be elected? That is what is wrong with politics…it’s about getting elected…not about what’s best for people. People will not vote for what they really need…they will vote for what they WANT for their individual short-term desires. (on average) And…by the way…when you start with all the hand outs to get elected (more allowance, any meal, no bedtime, etc)…good luck EVER taking those things back….over time…more and more things that are bad for a country are put into place, just because they appeal to individuals self centered desires….not for the overall benefit of the country. Handouts, government jobs, bigger government, these are what are going to slowly continue to weaken our country.
Have a nice day
By WFC
May 30, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this
DEAR THOR: Been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt. You useless war-mongers will NOT send my son to Iraq unless his platoon is commanded by Jenna Bush. I was a poor, powerless kid back in the day. That’s not the situation anymore.
By ga_tech_92
May 30, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
Correction:
I’m strongly against ‘everyone must serve a hitch’; however, history and my gut tell me that politicians and people of great influence will find someway around that for THEIR loved ones.
Should have read:
I’m NOT strongly against ‘everyone must serve a hitch’; however, history and my gut tell me that politicians and people of great influence will find someway around that for THEIR loved ones.
By Charles
May 30, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
Such typical Liberal B.S. - class envy, volunteerism vs. draft, etc. The founding fathers would be disappointed with what has become of this country’s apathy and Socialist agenda that’s being pushed by the mainstream press. Ben Franklin would probably take a torch to places like the AJC.
By ga_tech_92
May 30, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
TJ on socialism:
“Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have … The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.”
Not enough people care, so we are doomed to fall like Rome and every other society.
By Copyleft
May 30, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
Apparently, patriots like Charles find the notion of serving our country disasteful and offensive. Sorry to hear that.
By RealityKing
May 30, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
Bin Laden was raised as a devout Sunni Muslim.
I do not live in my parents basement because my Father threw me out at 19, a long time ago which is now why I’m too old for Uncle Sam’s A team. The best ever fielded in the history of the world.
And yes, I do fully support freedom for the oppressed, everywhere! My muscles may not be as sharply defined as they once were, but my mind and tongue are shaper than ever.., no drafting needed.
By Matthew
May 30, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
Jay, you ignored the part where some fringe liberal says “Bush murdered these kids, they didn’t sign up for war!”
Regardless, they signed up for the military. That doesn’t make it less tragic, it just refutes the idiotic attempts by people like you to paint a picture of Bush picking random young people off the street and slaughtering them.
Jay, when people like you quit trying to use military personnel (most of whom probably don’t agree with you) to defend your political leanings, this distinction goes away. But instead, we have radical liberals using the lives of American soldiers as ammunition in their spiteful war against this administration.
By rene
May 30, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
question:
if a draft occurs will it be male only?
By swolf4810
May 30, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
The problem with the draft is it has never really been done fairly. Remember Viet Nam?
By Jay Bookman
May 30, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
To Rene: Yes.
By Charles
May 30, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
Hey Copyleft,
I served 2 years active duty in the Air Force and 4 in the Air National Guard - to help protect YOUR rights to spew whatever lies you want here. But idiots like you don’t think it’s ‘serving’ if you are in the National Guard. Oh well, like *$&holes everyone has an opinion.
By GOPs got to go
May 30, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
Well we are looking at the perfect example of strings being pulled back in the 60’s with our dear old Shrub in the White House. But I do feel so much better knowing he is not golfing. I have felt this country needs a draft for a long time now. That way the flag pin wearing “Christians” might have to actually feel some pain from this chosen war, and not just the pain at the gas pump while they fill up their Hummers.
By ga_tech_92
May 30, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
rene, nice can of worms you might have opened there :)
equal treatment topic
By GOPs got to go
May 30, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
Geez, GT 92,
Could you cut down on the garrolus diatribe a little? You are giving me a headache trying to read that much
By ga_tech_92
May 30, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this
Draft = one more thing subject to abuse by politicians and those of influence. If you think our men and women are being taken advantage of now in a war, wait until you give those of influence the ability to draft your son, while secretively protecting their own son from the draft. Don’t be fooled into thinking a draft would be fair.
By Fred
May 30, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
Jay,
The point to saying that they volunteered is that these kids have shown their support for these wars and this country by serving their country. These are not poor and uneducated kids. That is not what the stats tell us and it’s not been my experience. All the kids that I know that have served or are serving are educated and from middle class families. I like your columns, Jay, even though I seldom agree with your views but I think this one cheapens the sacrifice made by our soldiers. I have a 3 year old and an 8 year old. Both boys. Both will have my support should they choose to join the military.
By ga_tech_92
May 30, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing and is a freedom. A freedom that many brave men and women made the ultimate sacrifice for. Out of respect for them, I’ll not edit my thoughts or freedoms for you.
If you get a headache from reading the small amount of text on this page, then I would suggest a doctor. If you are just being whiny, then I’m not surprised. Alternately, try a Tylenol, they work in a pinch.
I think the correct spelling is actually “garrulous”.
Thanks for contributing your ideas, but don’t be a hypocrite. If you express yourself, then don’t ask other people to silence themselves (or “cut down a little”). Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing, even if we don’t agree.
Have a nice day.
By Fred
May 30, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
Hey, gatech92 -
LET IT RIP!
By RDS
May 30, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
To Bookman we(us who serve) must be less educated, after all, we do not agree with his leftist views so by default we are less educated. The liberal mind continues to amaze me.
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this
Why worry about the draft? I think we should fight our enemy over here on our own soil. Why should we go country to country destroying an enemy that wants to kill us so bad? Why should we send our men/women over seas away from their resources to fight our own enemy - sounds pretty damn cowardly to me. I say, bring ‘em over here, cut off their resources, and let every one own it. It would be much more cost effective too. Hell, I might even buy a gun or two if there was the possibility of al-Qaeda marching down my street.
Since this war is so g******* important to us all - we need to step up to the plate and let us all have a hand in it!
By RealityKing
May 30, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
Anyone recall 9/11…? Bosch??
By zorro
May 30, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this
Just another ploy from the liberal left for more intensified anti war rhetoric which cannot get any traction on a grand scale in this country, which was the case Vietnam. Wake up lefties we are winning this war,because you have nothing to pick at it, Iraqis are now fighting back on their own with success, unlike the spineless ARVN Vietnam. You’re mad because the war dead are not being broadcasted like it was by Walter Kronkite every nite circa 1968 CBS. All you’re MSNBC,CNN,CBS,ABC can’t report enough negativity so Jay Bookman has to come up with something like this. Wake up they want to be in Iraq these young people would even go into Combat if Obama or Clinton were in office, even though you will find most military is republican. I think god we have young people who have enough values to do something like this instead of a generation of young people who voice there anti war opinions, then can be just in time to watch the next episode of american idol. Please, if you don’t have a strong argument about the war, don’t bring up something as idiotic as this volunteer vs draft nonsense. You know jay not every parent out there is a Cindy Sheehan, and by the way who put a gun to her sons head to join anyway, he chose it along with her blessing. Gulf War Vet Operation Desert Storm 1991, I’m out.
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
RealityKing,
What does Iraq have to do with 9/11?
That was 7 years ago, and we’re still running around trying to kill our enemy. We didn’t fight them that day, they attacked us and ran (or rather disintegrated).
That’s not a war, that was a cowardly act. And we should not follow suit by being cowards and destroying sovreign countries that had nothing to do with 9/11 in an attempt to defeat our enemy.
By smack
May 30, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
Bosch -
France had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor but we tore up a lot of their country. You kill your enemy where you can find them or you fight them in your own streets. I say kill them before they get here.
By ghost rider
May 30, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
By RealityKing
May 30, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
Anyone recall 9/11…? Bosch??
RealityKing…What is your point?
NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE was an Iraqi!
So again your point?
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
Jay Bookman, Why is it that every election dems like to bring up the draft to scare people in to voting for dems? Democrats brought on the draft during Vietnam. Dems got us in to Vietnam and Dems lost us Vietnam. Libs love to talk about Republicans being scare mongers yet it is you who are trying to bring about fear. Just like social security. Republicans have yet to take away SS or bring about the draft.
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
And another thing smack,
What is the difference between fighting al-Qaeda in the streets of Iraq verses fighting them here in our own streets?
My sweet mother would give all the soldiers lemonade and cookies when they pass on patrol. I’ll bet they’d like that, they probably don’t get that in Baghdad.
By dirty harry
May 30, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
By smack
May 30, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
SMACK…Your methaphor is without merit.
First…to compare Pearl Harbor with France is downright ludricous!
Any Japanese running around France’s countryside that you know of?
Two different wars my friend one in the far east .. the other in Europe.
I would suggest you go back to high school and finish your history course..You obviously failed!
By smack
May 30, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
Bosch-
Ya know, sometimes I think we ought to pull our troops out of all these other countries and strip all the foreign aid from countries who hate us anyway. I do think you are right about cells already being here. If you’re going to get a gun, you best do it before the next election while they are still legal….
By ga_tech_92
May 30, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
The Truth, I love it! :)
By RealityKing
May 30, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Al-Qaeda(Atta in particular) was marching down your Atlanta street 7 years ago Bosch. And you didn’t even recognize him! Bought that gun yet??
And way, way before that…, you might recall 10 years of patroling missle filled no-fly zones over Iraq? Or how about 17 meaningless UN resolutions??
History will show that the US invaded Iraq to end Saddam’s dreams of building nuclear bombs to dominate the M.E…, period. The neo-progressive’s attempt to frame the war as illegal will be little more than a footnote, describing how the media’s focus on war negatives aided the enemy..
free the oppressed
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
gatech92, If more people would engage and take on liberalism we would be off. Jay Bookman is a hack editor who has three different topics to write about. Race, Hating Bush, and evil conservatives. Those are the three. On any given day, the topic will be about one of the three. Just the other day he called me a pathetic white person because I didn’t see race as he does. It’s unfortunate that he couldn’t get a job licking Keith Olbermans shoes so he has to write for a hack newspaper who’s sales are in the tank.
By ghost rider
May 30, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
MR TRUTH..I don’t think so! As in truth..
The democrats never brought on the draft during Vietnam.
When I was eighteen years old the first thing I had to do was register for the draft. And this was in 1961..When did we began to build up our forces to deploy for another useless war (1965) I know I was there!
The draft was instituted many years before…I would guess about 1940..Remember the second world war?
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
ghost rider, And during BOTH of those wars who was the president? A DEMOCRAT.
Kennedy-President who got us in to Vietnam.
Roosevelt-President who got us in to WW2.
Both Democrats.
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this
RealityKing,
I think you have a very ironic name.
smack,
I’m glad you can recognize sarcasm, and I feel the same way. I think our focuses are out of whack, and our priorities should be here at home.
We have a geographical advantage that most around the world do not share - in other words, it’s hard to get here, and while our finest have been overseas - we’ve left the motherland vulnerable for infiltration. Bad planning.
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
The Truth,
I think it was Hitler who declared war on us first - so it was actually a Nazi that got us into WWII, and the Japanese, I don’t recall what political party the Japanese emperor was - I think he was just called the Emperor.
Why are we talking about WWII for Christ’s sake?
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Bosch, You’re correct. And, on 911 we were attacked by radical islam. Except this time, Bush didn’t call for a military draft. Still hasn’t. My point is that Democrats are the ones who’ve issued the draft and not the Republican presidents. Ever.
By Taxpayer
May 30, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Of course, it’s not right Jay. If you look closely, you’ll even see signs that others know it’s not right also. They’re the ones pushing for higher pay or offering to give up something themselves such as golf. I believe that we need leaders that are willing to lead us into battle personally. Any war truly worth fighting should be worth the fight for everyone — not just the few, the proud, …In fact, I’d be willing to fall in right behind such a leader even though I am well past my prime. Oh, for such a leader.
By ghost rider
May 30, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
Again you speak not to the truth.
Kennedy died in 1963…See any correlation with your so called expertise.
It was Lyndon Johnson who got us into the Vietnam quaqmire…Richard Nixon who ended the nonsense, not a democrat as you state!
Yes, FDR was president at the time we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. After which Germany declared war on us….What would you have FDR do?
Match set point!
Getting close to cocktail hour…BUH BYE.
By ron
May 30, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
Jay,Not everyone hides behind a college deferrment.Not everyone runs off to Canada at the sound of a gunshot.Many people vounteer.They go because they want to.Today’s military is all volunteer.They’re there because they want to be there.West Pointers are certainly educated.Aren’t they?I was in with volunteers that were college men.They took a break to serve their country.People do that you know.Not everyone sits on their A$$ and watches.Today’s military isn’t made up of the less fortunate,nor the uneducated.It’s made up of good men and good women who realize that someone has to serve.So the rest of you are free to sit home and not only not support them,but to actually criticize and belittle them.You’re free to do that because there’s always someone that will go in your stead.Like me.And my son.And my son’s wife.Don’t worry Jay,we’ll always go.Wewon’t wait for the draft.That’s the difference.
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
The Truth,
You’re right. My theory on that is because they know their own sons and daughters and hell, maybe even themselves, may have to don a uniform and join the fight.
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
ghost rider, Kennedy got us in to Vietnam. Democrats caved to the hippies and therefore made it impossible to win. Any war is impossible to win when your own people wuss out. I’m for winning wars and not being a total baby. FDR had no choice but at the same time we had the entire country on the troops side. Liberals and Democrats see the troops as a lower class of people. Hillary used troops to carry her bags in the White House. Howard Dean says that military personnel are dumb people. The state of California, all liberal, wants the military banned from the entire state. I’d rather have someone who actually served his/her country running the country than someone who despises their country such as Obama and Hillary. And yes, they hate America.
By Jay Bookman
May 30, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Ron, if everybody joined up for the reasons you suggest, the military wouldn’t have to offer enlistment bonuses of up to $40,000 just to fill the ranks.
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
I knew it! It’s the hippies fault!
Those damn nasty, smelly, patouchlie smelling weirdos.
By ghost rider
May 30, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
PUTZ…I got to go, but you made my case on FDR for me….Jeez!
You my friend seem obtuse, If you want to go back. It was Eisenhouer who began an advisory program in Vietnam. The year 1954. After Kennedy was elected in 1961 he continued the program…Have you ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin?
To tell you the TRUTH. TRUTH, my patience is wearing thin with your lack of History knowledge…Now give me some reference on all the other goofy statements you made in that little screed…and, leave the keyboard to grown-ups!
Go on I’ll have a cocktail while I wait….
By gttim
May 30, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
I served 2 years active duty in the Air Force and 4 in the Air National Guard - to help protect YOUR rights to spew whatever lies you want here.
Explain to me how you protected my rights? I never get this. My rights were not gotten by soldiers, they were gotten by normal people who stood up to the government- England at that time. This included printers, silversmiths, farmers and writers. They have been protected by the ACLU, protesters and liberals. The military has always been apart of the government that has tried to curtail my rights, like the GOP is doing again. It was the National Guard that shot and killed protesters at Kent State. Explain exactly how the military has protected my freedom of speech, and my civil rights? I have great respect for soldiers, but you need to check out a few history books from the library.
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
ghost rider,
Is it cocktail time already?
By ghost rider
May 30, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
By Bosch
May 30, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Yes..It’s Friday and, with idiots like TRUTH to contend with a well mixed cocktail is apropos at this time.
By the way I’m still waiting for his FACTS!
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
ghost rider, Your patience? I could care less about your patience. My point was that DEMOCRATS issued the draft. Get it? All this talk about how republicans are gonna do this and that is ridiculous if you have no proof of it. Every 4 years, the democrats bring up the draft and SS to get votes.
By ghost rider
May 30, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
ghost rider, Your patience? I could care less about your patience. My point was that DEMOCRATS issued the draft. TRUTH…you are lying again, you said “Democrats brought on the draft during Vietnam.”
This is becoming a moot point, (NOW, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION, TRUTH)the draft was established in 1940…Got it? Not in the 60’s, but in the 40’s…not to hard to understand is it?
By ghost rider
May 30, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
By the way MR. TRUTH .. Where on this blog have I said, and this is your quote (“All this talk about how republicans are gonna do this and that is ridiculous if you have no proof of it.”)
It’s not there is it? So you are lying again MR. TRUTH!
By Willie
May 30, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
I am the seventh son of seven sons. We all were drafted. In aggregate we served 30 months in combat. No casualties among us. Only one of us graduated high school and that was me. I did get a AA degree in the military. There are good and bad things with the draft. Opportunity is one of the good things. Last I checked there are more people without a college education than there are those with it. Sorely you mostly hear from those who have it. Travel is another good thing. You can see America and see different cultures. I recommend you stay home and not go abroad. My family killed to many of those suckers and you might not be too welcomed. We must put each other first and always put America ahead of the rest. Pull together. I remember the draft and rich kids got drafted. I do not believe that many will get to avoid serving. I say give it a chance.
By The Truth
May 30, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
ghost rider, Never said that you brought up republicans. It’s what Jay Bookman was eluding to. The talk of republicans was from what the dems do when the election comes around. They do it every time. Kerry and Edwards were saying it in 04 and I’ve heard Howard Dean talking about it now. Why else would Jay bring it up?
By gg
May 30, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
Who declared the college-bound as elite? Who thinks in terms of some groups being elite and other groups not being elite? What does that say about you?
By Gil
May 30, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
Every conscription law ever passed (except one) in the US was passed by a Democrat controlled Congress and signed by a Democrat President. The sole exception was the sainted Abraham Loncoln’s.
By Redneck
May 30, 2008 5:33 PM | Link to this
Jay, you might be right on the 40 grand to enlist but I don’t see a problem with it.
What I do have a problem with is the 40 grand of taxpayers money annually that goes to support the 20 year old brood sow with the 5 little illigits and her sperm donors in the projects.
Any comment?
By Taxpayer
May 30, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this
I see a problem with the 40 grand to enlist and the projects. Neither is appropriate.
By Mike
May 30, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
If Bookman really thinks the current situation is “immoral”, why isnt his still an advocate of the Afghan War?
Because he has two standards for behavior: one for folks that share his narrow views and one for everyone else. That’s why folks like Bookman feel comfortable calling Iraq War supporters “chickenhawks”, despite the fact that they support the Afghan War and have not performed military service.
The truth is I don’t think Bookman or Tucker really care about what is “right” at all. They just want to attack anyone who is too stupid or evil to share their narrow views.
By Jay Bookman
May 30, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this
Redneck, I hope you don’t seriously think that payments to the family you describe amount to anything close to $40,000….
I also think you’re changing the subject, but….
By Jay Bookman
May 30, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this
… in Illinois, the only state I could quickly find data on, the average TANF payment — TANF being the replacement for welfare — was $243 a month.
By GOPs got to go
May 30, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
GT 92,
You just like the sound of your type writer too much, blah, blah blah….. When your commentary exceeds the length of the original post by 10, you might have over done it.
By Political Foreskin
May 30, 2008 6:58 PM | Link to this
Jay, I know this is only a blog, but you’ve been taking shortcuts with your conclusions lately in your articles. You said the other day that “the US will pay for Iraq for years and years”, but dont say how. What are the consequences of Iraq in our future? What will we be paying?
Today, you claim that with a draft, the Iraq War will be over. How? By what process?
I know you’re busy, but I dont think a journalist should be allowed to write C papers. I teach 8th grade english and this would only get a C.
Sorry, but I really have a problem with lazy writing. I guess I’m kind of Fiend that way. I’ve got Wooten so mad at me that he’s virtually stopped appearing in his own blog. But I cant help myself. Wooten makes the most aggregious syntactical errors I’ve ever witnessed in an adult. Add in the fact that he’s got his old military buddies acting as thugs threatening any contrarians on his blog and you’ve got a real mess over there. The same sociopaths are blogging on this forum too. They always start out nice, and then when they realize how easily they are outclassed in formal debate, they revert to the Wooten style of foam-mouthed threats and oaths of revenge. It’s the pathos of witnessing a bunch of rats not abandoning a sinking ship, but cursing god as they go down with it. Conservatism is flotsam.
This blog will be toast very very soon. Wooten’s thugs will want revenge for sinking conservative fortunes. But till then, blog on, my fine friend.
By JAY BOOKMAN
May 30, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this
Many ways, PF. It will take a decade to repair the damage done to the military, as it did after Vietnam, and we’ve strenthened rather than weakened the hand of Iran. In economic terms, generations of Americans will pay higher taxes to repay the debts we’ve incurred. Diplomatically, the crediblity we lost in this debacle may never be recovered. And we’ve exacerbated a Shiaa/Sunni conflict that could add significantly to the instability of a region already deeply unstable.
By ron
May 30, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this
Jay,as near as I can find out,the $40,000 enlistment bonus is for some very highly specialized skills.Certain nuclear skills were mentioned.Private business pays similar bonuses for skills also.It’s called high salaries.What I said before stands.
By JAY BOOKMAN
May 30, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
40K is the max, Ron. The standard is 20K, I believe, with additions from there, including an additional bonus for reporting immediately, I believe.
By Taxpayer
May 30, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
Yet another sad thing about this Iraq “War” is that history could have taught us not to do what we have done. Look at the Soviet “war” in Afghanistan.
By ron
May 30, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this
Jay,You really need to find the charts and see what they’re paying the bonuses for.Here’s one.
Army,no prior service,six year enlistment,explosive ordinance disposal specialist.$16,000.This guy walks around and defuses unexploded bombs.Nice job,Huh?For $2666 a year bonus.Want to sign up?that’s $222 a month.
By Taxpayer
May 30, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this
I’ve stated before that the US invasion of Afghanistan, after 9/11/2001, was (and still is) easily justified. If I had been of age, I would have volunteered for service myself. Iraq is an entirely different situation. It wreaks of an arrogance at the highest levels within our government. I made a poor choice when I voted for Bush yet I still believe that Kerry and Gore were not the correct choices either. The “lesser of the Evils” just isn’t good enough. Sometimes I think that being young and naive isn’t — Oops. I mean, wasn’t — such a bad thing.
By Copyleft
May 30, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this
Charles: And evidently you didn’t learn much from your service, especially about American values.
Suggesting that Franklin would “burn down the AJC,” even if he disagreed with it, is laughable. Franklin valued a free press and especially the importance of dissent and debate. And he wasn’t just a liberal, he was a RADICAL.
Franklin was not a neoconservative or Republican icon; he thought dissent was a GOOD thing, a healthy expression of democracy, rather than the Seventh Sign of the Apocalypse as cowardly Bush-supporters do.
No, the only one who would make Franklin sad is jackbooted faux-patriots like you and TheLies.
By Redneck
May 30, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this
Jay, first off, you brought up the 40 grand being offered to young people to enlist in the miliary. Having read your writings for a number of years I don’t think you hold the military in high regards. At best you tolerate them and consider them a necessary evil.
Jay, you disappoint me with your lame post regarding TANF. Surely your comprehension is better than what you have exhibited. Are you really that naive to think that the brood sow only gets TANF. Lets see, she gets free housing, she gets food stamps, the illigits get free lunches at school, she and the illigits get free medical care, and she gets free utilities. The value and cost to the taxpayers for what is being provided is at least 40 grand. There are other costs involved that we have not even mentioned. What would you guess is the cost to administer those programs that she is leeching off of? Easily at least 10 grand per family.
Yeah, she makes 40 grand a year and don’t even have to get off her back!!
By Jay Bookman
May 30, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this
REDNECK: I don’t hold the military in high regard? Hmmm. I’d like to see you back that claim up. Cite something in my writings to substantiate that. I’m sure you cannot.
I grew up in a military family. My father was career military — 28 years; my mother joined as well, but back then she had to leave the service upon marriage. I was born on a military base and graduated from high school on a military base. I have always considered the military my extended family.
We were enlisted folks, and proud of it. I come from a long line of rednecks. But you know what? We were raised better — much better — than to call another human being a breeding sow.
Some people give rednecks a bad name.
By Mike
May 31, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this
We are protecting our elite, college-bound students from serving, while their less-educated peers with from less affluent backgrounds bear the brunt of the fighting and dying…… The quote above is ignorant and elitist. Do you know anyone who is personally in an enlisted combat role in the Army/Marines. Sure their are some under-educated troops, and their are some from poor families. On the whole though, for the shooters: they test out with above average intelligence & are caucasions from above average income families. Check the stats & don’t believe the hype. They enlist because they want to serve their country and be a part of something bigger than themselves. As opposed to becoming a snot-nosed frat boys while there is a war going on.
By ALAN
May 31, 2008 1:19 AM | Link to this
PLEASE SIGN EVERYONE UP AND SEE HOW QUICKLY OPINIONS CHANGE. STICKING RIBBONS ON YOUR VEHICLES IS SOO EASY TO DO !!
BRING BACK THE DRAFT ASAP…IT WILL STRENGTHEN THE MILITARY FORCE WITH MORE PERSONELL. WE WILL NOT BE STRETCHED THIN ANYMORE AND CAN FIGHT 100 WARS CONCURRENTLY !!!
alan
By D
May 31, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this
I am rather disturbed by what I am reading here. I will admit that I am not a soldier etc and don’t think I would have volunteered either, for a variety of reasons none of which are due to any lack of patriotism. Our men and women in uniform are, I believe, the bravest Americans. The situation in Afghanistan is truly a just war. I do have a problem that we got distracted by Iraq. Bush kept saying we got 75% or 80% of Al Qaeda etc….. the problem is we fell short of getting 100% and by going to Iraq, those that were left were able to spread like a cancer. I do find it interesting, however, that if you look at a map of where we are currently at war, there is a country in between that I think may be part of a larger objective and I fear what may happen to our troops over there if that comes to pass. As far as a comment earlier saying how our military hasn’t protected our rights and the ACLU has, the ACLU can’t do it alone. Sometimes the lawyers do need some help. God Bless our troops and remember, less than 8 months till Jan 20. I only hope that we can fix what we broke sooner rather than later.
By GodHatesTrash
May 31, 2008 5:32 AM | Link to this
Wouldn’t it be great if all these warblogging warmongers would get their obese butts down to their local Army recruiter and themselves over to Iraq?
But, let’s face it, they are all spineless yellow cowards, and would you really want to be the soldier stuck in a foxhole with one of these jellyfish creeps?
By Jay Bookman
May 31, 2008 7:06 AM | Link to this
No Mike, it is not elitist. How many of those who have enlisted have college degrees? How many of those who have enlisted put off realistic college plans — UGA acceptance, Ga Tech acceptance — in order to serve their country?
Not very many. In fact, if you look at the data, the Army in particular is having to take more and more kids who lack a high school diploma.
By the way, I don’t take education as a marker of intelligence. There are an awful lot of kids in the military just as naturally smart as those trotting off to Harvard; they just didn’t get the same opportunities.
By GodHatesTrash
May 31, 2008 7:36 AM | Link to this
What a bunch of morons these warmongers are - they have the morals of marauding chimpanzees, and are far less intelligent.
Small wonder then, why the rest of the world thinks we are crazy, when we allow this kind of vicious stupid cowardly trash to elect our leaders… Bush is a symptom, the real problem is the animals that elected that incompetent criminal fool.
God have mercy on this country before it is too late.
By James
May 31, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this
Mr. Bookman:
You are “right on” on this one. A volunteer army is a mercenary army. That doesn’t take away from the valor of the individual troops but it does affect national policy. You run a war with a draft (as you should) and your policy will more accurately reflect the will of the people !!! Military leaders don’t like the draft as they say they don’t get the best troops. B.S. !! Everyone calls Vietnam the “great draft war” which is so false. The rate was 25%. The rate in WWII was 66+% and we did just fine !!!
One more thing. I think the draft is the right way to go but I am dead set against it unless it is totally RANDOM. In other words, third year medical students at Harvard make great medics and corpsmen (NO EXCEPTIONS) and women must be drafted comensurate with the military’s needs.
Cpl. James India, 3rd Bn., 4th Marines Vietnam (1967-68)
By Redneck
May 31, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
Jay, I will try to keep this short. First from one military retiree, me, to another military retiree, your father, I thank him for his service and having my back much as I had his back during my service. I agree that it was an assumption on my part that you have a dislike of the military. Even after reading your post I can’t see how my assumption is wrong. You have openly supported two of the biggest traitors to the military, Bill Clinton and John Kerry, in the history of this nation. You have also openly said that you believe as they do. You can’t have it both ways just as the person in congress who spouts the lie “I support the troops but I hate the war.”
I really wish you wouldn’t call yourself a “redneck.” You are going to give you a bad name.
Finally, as to the brood sow. Well, if it walks like an animal, breeds like an animal, can’t support itself like an animal, has multiple partners like an animal, then I think it meets the criteria to be called a brood sow.
See you on the FairTax(TM) blog.
By Redneck
May 31, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
GodHates Trash, if your name was true, you would not even be here.
Finally, if you think this country is so screwed up, get your happy arse in the street and move to another country.
Oh, I’m sorry. I had forgotten that you can’t get your welfare check if you move out of country!!!
By GodHatesTrash
May 31, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this
Now now, Redneck, you silly inbred cretin. Most folks in this country who are on welfare are drunken hillbillies just like you.
By Jay Bookman
May 31, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
Hey Trash and Redneck:
Why don’t we create a blog just for you two to go off and cuss and fuss at each other, so more civil folk can have a place to actually talk about things?
Anybody else for that? Because it get’s pretty damn tiresome.
By Jamie
May 31, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
Explain to me how you protected my rights? I never get this. My rights were not gotten by soldiers, they were gotten by normal people who stood up to the government- England at that time.
I suggest the author of this post go back and review their high school history textbook. Recall something called the REVOLUTIONARY WAR??
By GodHatesTrash
May 31, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Well Jay, it’s quite customary on the AJC blogs for some of the (il)literati thinkers on the right to censor communications and restrict posters, so I guess you can do what you have to do. It is also quite customary for the rightwing yokels that post on the AJC blogs to impugn the patriotism of decent Americans such as myself. But let’s step back…
“Civil” is the root word for “civilization”.
Let’s face it, many of the regular rightwingnut posters here have the brains, morals, and ethics of something that slithers under a rock, so why waste civil discussion on such, especially when they seem so incapable, and so adamantly against, acting like civilized human beings? These folks love war, they hate basic decency, they love the vengeance murder of innocents, and like jackals and hyenas they believe in the survival of the fittest… Think about what kind of people post the vicious vacuous rightwing blather and nonsense here day after day - would you want your children anywhere near them??
And after all, Redneck is the one who felt inspired to personally attack me, I merely responded on his level, which is of course, the lowest of the low…
(Alas, America is full of people that are proud of their ignorance and stupidity, and celebrate their lack of a decent education and their laziness and drunkenness, hence certain screen names.
I find these things deplorable. Disgusting. Completely uncivilized.)
By Jay Bookman
May 31, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
To Trash:
So, your approach is different from theirs in what way exactly?
By GodHatesTrash
May 31, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
You’re right, my approach differs from yours.
Let me give you an analogy. At Yerkes Primate Research Center, they have made a concerted effort to teach our fellow primates how to communicate. My understanding is that there are some apes that have learned 500 or so words, and through use of symbol machines, have actually learned how to construct very basic sentences.
However, so far no one is trying to teach them to read Shakespeare, let alone discuss it.
You think our rightwingnut friends are capable of civil discussion. But you can’t show me ever where they did that.
As soon as the folks at Yerkes get the great apes and chimps to put on a performance of King Lear, or Othello, or even Caddyshack, or The Three Stooges, then your “dialog” approach to “civil” discussion with rightwing nuts might be worth an investigation.
Until then, I, GHT, just operate from the terrible truth about these folks. Based on their violent history, their fear-filled cowardly natures, and their embrace of viciousness, vengeance, and ignorance, they are incapable of civilized anything.
By Joel Edge
May 31, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
If you give money to an organization, that is called charity, if someone takes money from you at the point of a gun, that is called robbery. Volunteers give freely. It’s why most military would rather not revive the draft.
By William L. Fell
May 31, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
Why has no one brought up the fact that a very low percentage of Congress’ children and/or close relatives are in uniform in Iraq. That points out to me that the people who patriotically volunteer to go to Iraq are dupes. The draft should be initiated for any war so everyone can share the horror of war. Why weren’t W’s kids in uniform? Barbara didn’t raise any fools. Imbeciles, yes, but not fools.
By active duty
May 31, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
We have a military at war and a nation at the mall.
By Kendall
June 1, 2008 1:01 AM | Link to this
Where on earth do you get your statistics? We are protecting our elite, college-bound students from serving, while their less-educated peers with from less affluent backgrounds bear the brunt of the fighting and dying.
Where do you get that nonsense? Is it one of those “everybody knows” things? For crying out loud if you’re going to say something, substantiate it. It’s called attribution.
I’m thinking maybe you didn’t do any research because if you had then you could cite or attribute the source of something more definitive — it would be right at your fingertips, right?
I call shenanigans. Tell us what study or survey you’re getting this crap from.
By GodHatesTrash
June 1, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
You know, Jay, it appears that some of the rightwingnut jackanapes posters here don’t even know how to use the google on the internets, and they expect you to do it for them.
Why bother? Like the moron that lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington DC, they really don’t care what the facts or the truth are. They are living in their own private Idahos, full of fear and contempt for human civilization, sociopathic egomaniacs.
Of course, “dialog and discuss: with them, if you must.
You might also enjoy trying to push a bathtub full of spaghetti through a drinkstraw.
By Michael
June 1, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
Why is it immoral for less educated people to serve in the military? Why is it less moral for someone to go to college instead? If my son or daughter serves or does not serve in the military why is it Jay Bookman’s business? If you are uneducated and don’t want to join the military find something else to do. What? Have all of the grocery stores closed?
By gman
June 1, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
As a retired US Soldier with 2 sond serving in the 82nd Airborne Division I can tell you a return to the draft would be a disaster for the US Army. I spent 12 long hard years recruiting and can tell you a volunteer is much prefered over a draftee. I recruited young people that wanted to serve, many were honor students, senior class presidents, eagle scouts, and star athletes. Above all THEY WANTED TO BE THERE> Many people say we need a draft so that the rich would serve. Well what good would they be if they come with an attitude and do the minimum just to get by. Draftees for the most part have served this country well. Towards the end of Vietnam the majority were rich college boys who basically were worthless as soldiers,(not all fit this description).The draft in Vietnam especially after 1968 damn near destroyed the US Army.I was a part of the generation of NCO’s that rebuilt the US ARMY from the ashes of Vietnam into A CRACK fighting force second to none on this planet. SO FORGET THE DRAFT. 85% of draftees left the Army compared to a 50% reup rate today.
By Clay
June 1, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
This whole blog is a crock. Jay stated the other day: “The soldiers going off to Iraq today were 12 years old when the Twin Towers went down. Just thought you’d want to know.” The response was: Hey they signed up to go. They volunteered. Don’t act like “we’re” sending them off to war—because they signed up. Now Jay is trying to spin it back around. He got caught making a stupid comment that he obviously didn’t think about before he wrote it—and Jay is embarrassed that he could make such a dumb and obvious observation.
By dbm
June 1, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this
In some contexts, it would not be very relevant to bring up the point that they volunteered. In response to Jay’s fourth paragraph, it becomes very relevant to bring up the point that they volunteered.
By dbm
June 2, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this
Are you sure a draft would end the Iraq war? It didn’t end the Vietnam war, certainly not quickly. What the combination of Vietnam and the draft did do was to tear the country apart. It also created confusion about whether physical aggression should be allowed on college campuses. In one respect, a draft makes it easier to fight a misguided or bungled war, since the government can get people to fight without having to persuade them that it’s worth it.
By dbm
June 2, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
There were riots in New York because people were being drafted to fight in the Civil War. Does this make the Union cause in the Civil War immoral? I put it to you that it is the draft that is immoral. This is a separate issue from the morality or immorality of this war or that.
By dbm
June 3, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this
“In effect, we are doing just what we did in the early years of Vietnam with college draft deferments, before we acknowledged the immorality of the practice. We are protecting our elite, college-bound students from serving, while their less-educated peers with from less affluent backgrounds bear the brunt of the fighting and dying. Explain to me how that is right.”
Jay, you are confusing the issue of whether we should be fighting this war with the issue of who serves and how it is decided.
If we should not be fighting this war, then what is happening to our troops is a horrible waste regardless of who or what they are or how they were chosen.
Any draft is a form of slavery and is evil. The only just, right way to choose who fights is to have a volunteer military and let people choose themselves. We must accept that some people will be more likely to volunteer than others.
Police work is noble, necessary, and dangerous. If we were to draft people to serve as police, there might be quite a rebellion, but this does not make police work immoral. It would be silly to argue that there is an injustice because the police who are laying their lives on the line for us are not a random sample of society. It would be just as silly to argue so if there were something serious and systemic wrong with the police or their mission that cried out for reform. Such an argument is equally silly whether applied to the police or the military.