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DEL.ICIO.USFlaws and honor in Hall of Fame voting
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Las Vegas — It must have been easier to escape old Alcatraz than it is to get into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Its gates are zealously — and jealously guarded.
This is the fellowship that Joe DiMaggio couldn’t make in the first round. Or the second. Or the third. Nine members of the Baseball Writers of America, the voting constituency, passed over Henry Aaron.
Look, it’s not the Supreme Court. It’s about baseball, the national pastime. A sport.
Guys who hit supremely well, and pitch, and field baseballs hit at them. It has nothing to do with saving lives, or winning wars. Though I must say that team budgets are beginning to near the size of a third-world economy.
But in Las Vegas this week, we were not there to find fault and correct flaws. It was a sort of extra-inning electorate, to open the sacred hall of Cooperstown to some worthies who otherwise had not been admitted. There were two clusters of players to be considered, Post-WWII and Pre-WWII, 1943 being the line of division.
All 64 living members of the Hall had dealt with the post-war candidates. Our group, seven members of the Hall and five labeled as historians, some members of the press and keepers of records, had two lively sessions before voting on the players who broke into the major leagues before WWII.
The Hall of Fame voters were Phil Niekro, Bobby Doerr, Duke Snider, Robin Roberts, Dick Williams, Don Sutton and Ralph Kiner. The 10 candidates we considered were Wes Ferrell, Mickey Vernon, Allie Reynolds, Joe Gordon. Carl Mays, Sherry Magee, Vern Stephens, Bucky Walters, and two from the dark ages of the l800s, Bill Dahlen, an infielder and later manager, and Deacon White, a catcher.
Vernon passed away just this year, otherwise all other candidates have been long gone. So the scene was set and the floor was open for opinion, of which there no shortage.
The main purpose of this belated vote has never been stated, but it would appear that the Hall of Fame organizers felt there were so many candidates who had come close, and “fallen through the cracks,” as it was put, that it was time to give them one more chance. This had never been done before, and it was apparent there was hope that a whole new class might be inducted.
Ron Santo, Jim Kaat, Gil Hodges and Maury Wills had come close over the years, but in the end, not one member of the group considered by the 64 living members made it, and that included Joe Torre, who was considered as a player.
This had to be disappointing to Jane Forbes Clark, chairman of the Hall, and Jeff Idelson, the president. It was interesting to be among, and to hear player-members of the Hall of Fame talk about the candidates, most of whom few had known.
Say this, there was little said that was not upgrading, though some of our group had never seen some of the candidates play.
Only one candidate made it, Joe Gordon, second baseman for the Yankees and Indians, a stellar fielder who hit with power, played on six World Series teams, most valuable player one season and a nine-time All-Star. He also figured in the only kind trade known to man, manager for manager in 1960, swapped to Detroit for Jimmy Dykes.
We delegates were allowed to vote for four, and mine went to Ferrell, Vernon, Walters and in the end, Gordon. Something Bobby Doerr had said, a Hall of Fame second baseman himself, swayed me. “There were times I used to wish I was as good as he was,” he said, an honorable admission that I took seriously, and admired him for it.
In retrospect, inspiring experience that it was, I regret that the Hall of Fame wasn’t further endowed with more than one new member able to share this “greatest honor in the game.”
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By Hoosier Aaron
December 12, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
Mr. Bisher -
Let me say that -
There is no good reason why Gil Hodges is not in the Hall of Fame.
And that has nothing to do with the fact that Gil was a fellow Southern Indiana Hoosier. :^)
When he retired he had more career home runs than any National League right handed hitter. He had more RBI than any player during the 1950’s. He was quite possibly the best fielding 1B of all-time.
If character counts against you - then you it should count for you as well.
“Gil Hodges is a Hall of Fame man.” — Roy Companella
“If you had a son, it would be a great thing to have him grow up to be just like Gil Hodges.” — Pee Wee Reese
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
By Eddie
December 12, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
Of those currently eligible to be voted upon, my first vote would go to Bert Blyleven. He is not my favorite player of those eligible (that would be Dale Murphy), but he is, in my opinion, far and away the class of those currently eligible (and yes, I am including the me-first Ricky Henderson).
As for those that you had the opportunity to vote for, I agree with you. It’s a shame that more people are not inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.
I would say that almost all of the people mentioned in your article that I have heard of should be in.
Too little credit is given to those from the early days of the game.
Appropriate and long overdue recognition has been given to Negro Leagues ballplayers, but there are many deserving candidates from the early days of the game who have been forgotten.
I am glad that the powers that be at least gave these folks a second chance, but it would have been nice if more had been “allowed” to join the HOF club.
By don
December 12, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
The truth is that neither Bobby Doerr nor Joe Gordon (nor a lot of others) belong in the Hall of Fame. It has been diluted far too much by all these borderline inductees.
By D.S.
December 13, 2008 1:03 AM | Link to this
Really Don? Then you must have never seen Ron Santo play.
By R Dizzle
December 13, 2008 1:29 AM | Link to this
I realize this is a post about the HOF, but could not find another page to post this on. It makes me ill that AJ not only went to the SKANKS for a little more money, but maybe also because of the fact that his wife does not fly. What F’in difference does that make, they were in Toronto last year, and she had to drive up there from Maryland. Call me and idiot, but I have to believe that the drive to Toronto from Maryland is much farther than the drive to the ATL; Quit blaming it on his wife, and just admit that he is a greedy b*** like the rest of them.
By Vermont 39
December 13, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
I didn’t want to see us get an under achieving until free agent year pitcher “who had health issues “for any price.
2 - If a player isn’t elected by those who saw him play, what makes him more eligible later???
By Hillbilly Deluxe
December 13, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
I believe both Gil Hodges and Ron Santo belong in the Hall of Fame. Of the latter day players who’ve been overlooked, how can Andre Dawson not be in. His numbers are better than Gary Carter’s and he was a better player in every category except self-promotion.
By GordonGuy
December 13, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
What bugs me most about this is the fact that current HOF’s are the ones keeping some of these other post-WWII players out. There’s no way they couldn’ve decided that no one, not one person, was eligible for the past two votes. It’s almost as if they have decided that they are the arbiters of what is HOF worthy…AFTER they made it. Ron Santo deserves the honor, no matter what Mike Schmidt or any of these other guys say. I wonder how they would feel if the roles were reversed and they were the ones on the outside looking in. As you say, Furman, this is not the Supreme Court. It is baseball. The HOF should be ashamed of the way things are going. This is almost as bad as the BCS! Which reminds me, what are the only sports that do not have a playoff? Boxing, horse racing, and NCAA Division I football. ‘Nuff said.
By Ken Stallings
December 14, 2008 3:18 AM | Link to this
Furman,
It is time that baseball radically alter how players are voted for the hall of fame. The current system has been too long abused by narrow-minded people who see themselves more as bouncers at a club than as people given a duty to preserve baseball’s rich history by immortalizing the best players of every generation.
Within the last 20 years the process of selection has gotten so difficult, with so many well deserving players omitted, that the process seems to overshadow the result. Crassly, it seems many a part of the process like it that way! It seems they wish to be the stars, the ones receiving the attention, vice doing the job they have the honor to perform.
Gil Hodges not in the hall of fame is a sickness. Dale Murphy not in the hall of fame is a sickness. Andre Dawson not in the hall of fame is a sickness. Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, Jim Kaat should be there. There was no excuse that Don Sutton with over 300 wins had to endure years of frustration.
It is time for a simple approach. Baseball above all other sports is a statistical sport. Every aspect is measured and has been over generations. A player’s admission should be based upon one criteria, an objective comparison of the player’s performance on the field relative his contemporary players.
If the statistical balance of his performance ranks him among the top 5% of players within the span of his career, then he should be elected. No personality contests, no inflated egos of voters, just a purely objective consideration on the actual merits.
By Terrible Truth
December 14, 2008 7:59 AM | Link to this
As long as Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and their ilk are kept out, I’m good.
By Dan Ronan
December 14, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this
It is disheartening that great players including Ron Santon, Bert Blyleven, Jim Kaat and others have been overlooked by the HOF voters. These players were leaders on the field, in the clubhouse and had long, stellar careers. Blyleven and Kaat are two of the winningest pitchers in the history of the game and yet the HOF doors are locked. As a young man, I saw Ron Santo play for the Cubs and from early 60’s through the mid-70’s he was one of the best 3rd basemen, behind Schmidt, but equal to Robinson. And Santo played with a serious illness - diabetes - for most of his career and kept it secret, because he was afraid of how the team would react and if he could be declared medically ineligible. The great baseball stat man Bill James says Santo is one of the top 100 players of all time and yet the HOF voters have said no. Santo is the model of the superior fielding third baseman who hits for power, drives in runs and can change a game with a diving catch down the 3rd base line or a 3 run homer. Ask HOF’er Fergie Jenkins what a great player Santo was. On and off the field Ron Santo is also the embodiment of a leader, raising tens of millions of dollars for medical research and becoming an even more beloved figure to baseball fans on Radio/Television. The current voting/selection procedure is hopelessly BROKEN, it’s become nothing more than a popularity contest, like what you’d see among the most exclusive, ego-crazed, spoiled teenagers. The HOF needs to bring back the system it had several years ago with the “Veteran’s Committee.” Those honorable voters (retired baseball broadcasters, writers and great players) usually got it right. Yes, there should be a mention on the Inductee’s plaque, selected by the Veteran’s Committee in year ——. There’s nothing wrong with that, but the current voting system has become a joke and needs repair now.
By buster
December 14, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
jack morris needs to be in the hall. how many times did he take his teams to the world series.
By bill
December 14, 2008 7:32 PM | Link to this
If you use the worst piycher as a base line then Mily Pappas , Jack Morris and anyone else with 200 victories belongsin. The worst pitcher in the hall, Don Drysdale. Mediocre stats two hundred losses, and his scoreless innings streak was save when an umpire ruled a hit batsman did not try to get out of the way. He is in the hall because he played for the Dodgers and weny media afterwards.
By Hillbilly Deluxe
December 14, 2008 9:07 PM | Link to this
I agree with the criteria that the late Joe Falls said he used for casting his ballot. Was the player in question a dominant player at his position in his era? If he was, put him in.
By grandbob
December 15, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this
Jim Kaat and Bert Blyleven both belong there. It is a shame they are not. They both could have won well over 300 games with better teams. They did it with consistant lower level teams, and did it with grace. Put them where they belong - with the best. Davey Concepcion also belongs, but gets no consideration, like Gil Hodges. Shame, Shame !!
By MP
December 15, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this
The need for this discussion is another reason I have lost a lot of my love for baseball. I still love the game, but the people involved (players, media, owners, the commish) make it difficult.
If baseball truly is the “American pastime” it should be about inclusion, rather than exclusion. THE NFL is getting it right. They vote in 5-10 players every year. Why should a fan be deprived of seeing a player he/she grew up with, who has the stats and the name recognition, of getting into the HOF?
By Sautee Dawg
December 15, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this
Flaws and Honor, speaking of this event in Las Vegas, saw Pete Rose there last year at one of the malls signing autographs, showing some age but still looked tough enough to play.
By CJ
December 16, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
I’m with the multiple posters above who said that Ron Santo should have made it. It breaks my heart to see him excluded time and time again. If anybody has earned a spot in the HOF, he has.
By Nockerupper
December 17, 2008 7:29 AM | Link to this
Dale Murphy had a lifetime .262 average & 398 home runs. Great centerfielder and two MVP seasons, and overall outstanding human being.
He is not a Hall of Fame candidate based on his career numbers. I’m a 40-year Braves fan, but the Hall should be reserved for the elite of the game.
By cadarius
December 17, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
i wont to learn how to play
By Ken Stallings
December 17, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Dale Murphy played in a dead ball era before steroids juiced up the game. He played in stadiums designed for football first which meant they had huge outfields. Put Murphy in the band boxes we see today and he would have cleared 400 with ease.
Murphy’s batting average declined rapidly near the end of his career when he was playing injured. More to that point, he never took drugs to recover from those injuries.
I won’t even mention the effect steroids would have had on his power because with Murphy if you guaranteed him a first ballot HOF election, he would still have refused to take them.
Who’s more deserving? Someone like Murphy who played in a pitching dominant era who hit 398 and quite rather than get the last two? Or someone like Sammy Sosa or Mark McQuire who would have otherwise had stats less than Murphy but who ushered in a corrupt era where 30 home runs no longer meant what it did when Murphy and Schmidt were the only players who consistently did it in the NL?
By harleyman
December 18, 2008 7:05 AM | Link to this
Compare Murphy’s stats excluding the last few years of his career compared to Ryne Sandberg’s for instance who just walked away early from the game. I think you will find they are comparable. One’s in, one’s not. Looks like Murphy is being penalized for playing too long. Also, being good for the game just doesn’t seem to matter. Hit 500 homeruns juiced up on ‘roids with no defensive skills and your in. Nowadays, the voting carries as much credibility as the BCS football polls.
By Don Schmelz
December 18, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
I was 13 yrs. old and living about 20mi East of Cleveland in 1948 when Joe Gordon came to the Indians from the Yankees (oh yes the Yankees were as hated then in Cleveland as they are now). But the Cleveland fans were so desperate for an American League Pennant and World Series that Gordon was very well received, and he didn’t disappoint. He combined with Lou Boudreau at shortstop (also the Indians “boy Manager”) for the best double play combination in baseball. The Indians beat Boston in a one game playoff that year and won the World Series. Gordon played out his remaining years in Cleveland and was a class act until he retired. I’m not quite as old as you are but I’ve seen my share of “baseball up close and personal” and I’ve yet to see a better second baseman even in his waning years. You voted for the right guy.
By Hoosier Aaron
December 18, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
By today’s standards - does this pitcher deserve to be in Cooperstown?
Played 12 season. 1st 7 seasons record - 54 - 53 Next 5 seasons - 111 - 34 Career ERA 3.62 Career record - 165 - 87
By today’s voting standards there is NO way this pitcher gets in.
Greatness lasted only 5 years. 165 wins does not make you a Hall of Famer.
They’ve said of Murph - greatest was too short to deserve Hall of Fame status. 398 home runs is not a Hall of Famer.
Murph was second in the decade of the ‘80’s in home runs and RBI - behind only Mike Schmidt and Eddie Murray.
The above stats are those of Sandy Koufax.
I’m not saying that Koufax is not a Hall of Famer…he most certainly is one of the greatest (if on the greatest) left handers of all time. But - by today’s voting standards he does not get in.
By Reid in EAV
December 18, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
I must point out that in prohibiting its eligible BBWAA members to vote (such as one David O’Brien), the AJC isn’t helping.
By PUTTING ON THE FOIL
December 19, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this
FIRE WADDELL
By ben
December 20, 2008 1:11 AM | Link to this
FIRE WADDELL
T-Bird coda out of the way, Murph was a stud in an era of duds. Maybe he gets in. I really hope skip makes it someday. Chipper, is he the new Murph?
FIRE WADDELL
By CRM
December 24, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
I agree with some here that today’s standards for entering the Hall are to easy to achieve. This is the Hall of Fame we’re talking about. It should not be easy to get in. Only the very top tier players should make it. I’m as big a Dale Murphy fan as anybody out there, but Murph’s just not a Hall of Famer. A career .262 batting average should not qualify unless the home run and RBI stats are just eye-popping. I’m sorry to say that while Murph had good stats in those areas they aren’t enough to offset a mediocre batting average.
The biggest thing about the Hall of Fame that irritates me is that people like Barroid Bonds, who couldn’t play the game fairly, will get in while a man like Pete Rose who played it not only fairly, but also passionately and extremely well will be left out because of something that probably dozens of other that played or managed the game have done but never got caught doing. As long as Pete Rose is left out of the Hall, it’s all a sham anyway.
By Barry Cohen
January 3, 2009 6:31 AM | Link to this
I am most fortunate to have enjoyed seeing the play of both RON SANTO and DALE MURPHY. Both superstars in every category. Both played in baseball markets that failed to promote these fine gentlemen to the level of historicsl dominence required for HOF inclusion. Notwithstanding, I believe baseball will be best served by reoognition of players at these levels as "ambassadors of baseball" or some other term that looks beyond personal statistics,team statistics and media marketto recognize extraordinary social contributions that elevated the sport of baseball to its highest status. The unselfishness, generosity and kindness of RON SANTA, DAQLE MURPHY and others are contributions that keep our nations attention to this game.By Bob LaCivita
January 10, 2009 1:10 AM | Link to this
I, too, was lucky enough to actually see Ron Santo and Dale Murphy play. They were both quite dominant players during their eras - no steroids, no “juiced balls”, no 32 teams. The HOF has been a joke for a long time, not just fro these 2 players, but a number of others (Hodges, Kaat, etc.) who are obviously being blackballed for what reason, I don’t know. Lesser players are in, better players are out - go figure. These “fans” that come up with stupid excuses as to whay these players don’t belong have no clue as to the game, the times, or the players. Hey, Mike Schmidt only hit .267 in a lower quality pitching era than Santo, so why not kick him out? Joe Morgan didn’t hit as many homers as Murphy, so why is he there? Come on - top players of an era should be honored for their careers, period.