Furman Bisher

By Mike De la Hoz

December 5, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

Amen Mr. Bisher:

Sorry to see what has become of this franchise, where they salivate over trading for a below .500 pitcher and where the signing of a back-up catcher is considered big news. I am afraid as bare as the cupboard is these days, will be a long time before this sorry bunch sniffs the playoffs again.

By Wayne

December 5, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

The cupboards were bare when Big John left KC and they were bare when he stepped down as GM. KC has never recovered and it will take the Braves a long long time. Don’t trade just to acquire a pitcher unless it is a very good one. Build from within. The Tex trade was a major error when you did not have the pitching to back it up. BUILD FROM WITHIN.

By BMF

December 5, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

I think most people are reacting negatively to the Vazquez trade but I like it. Yeah, I don’t like trading away very good looking young players for middle age pitchers whose best days might be behind him, but I still think this will work. In the end, this trade was Vazquez for Flowers. What do we have here? A proven, durable, albeit mediocre pitcher, but who should (based on track record) be able to give us 30 starts and presumably 200 innings. Even if it’s mediocre 200 innings, I’d still take it versus what we’ve had to trot out to the mound the last couple seasons. And what of Flowers? He had a great 20 games in the AFL…big deal. He hasn’t even played above A ball I believe. We already have a catcher in McCann, and from what I’ve read, Flowers was horrible defensively. So, we trade him to the AL where he might have a better chance to break into the bigs in 2-3 yrs, or he might flame out entirely, who knows. Let’s give Vazquez a chance.

By CW

December 5, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

It was easier to build from within back in 1990 as the Braves had been horrible the two decades prior with only a few teams worth a damn during 20+ years in Atlanta. It didn’t matter that young arms were rushed to the minors and games were lost getting experience. They weren’t winning much anyway.

Right now the Braves are stuck in limbo. The organization and fans still remember the glory years of 14 straight division titles even though the last vestiges of that era are sliding towards retirement.

In modern baseball it seems like you have one of two paths to choose towards success. 1. Spend vast amounts of money stockpiling talent like the Yanks, BoSox and now Cubs or 2. Strike it rich every blue moon with a collection of young, low-priced talent even though you know that success means you can’t afford to keep the team together for more than two or three years.

The Braves clearly can’t spend the money to join the first group, but are unwilling to dump high-salary veterans to undertake a true rebuilding campaign.

I just can’t see this middle road getting us anywhere better than the last two years anytime soon.

By Chris

December 5, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

I totally agree and thank you for this wonderful article. This is what no one seems to want to say right now! The Braves are in real trouble when they are trading talent for 4+ ERA pitchers who are supposed to top our rotation this coming up season. It’s going to be a long long wait for the playoffs for this team. That is unless Arthur Blank were to buy this team and pump money back in to it. Come on Mr. Blank PLEASE!!

By Wayne in UT

December 5, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

You need to retire. Did you notice that the Braves currently have 2 players ranked in the top 25 minor leaguers in all of baseball.

go back to your rocking chair.

By Marc

December 5, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Seriously? The man has been on the job for one year.

Go away, Furman.

By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)

December 5, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Yes Sir, this blogger is in total agreement. There is a reason us old farts have been around the block more than a time or two. Wisdom comes with age, although, it’s not helping with my temperament.

Trade the future to win now. It doesn’t add up. The last three seasons don’t support this philosophy.

By gayle

December 5, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

With the additions of Vasquez and possibly Burnett, the Braves are doing little more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

This franchise needs REAL changes - the kind that Arthur Blank was bold enough to do to the Falcons - and look where they are less than a year after hitting rock bottom.

Until the franchise has the guts and courage to face the real shortcomings of this team, the fans can expect to be watching only football come October.

By Tyler

December 5, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this

This is a good move for what the Braves are trying to accomplish, a win now trade. They gave up minor league propects for a pitcher that will win double digits and put up 200+ innings.

The prospects they gave up are just that: prospects. There is no way of telling that these guys will be great major leaguers or someone who will never play an inning. Lillibridge sucks, Flowers had a good year at A ball and the AFL, and the two other prospects are too young to give any thought to. Flowers is still a couple years away from quality big league playing time.

This is a good deal for the Braves. Yes Flowers has a big up side to be a power hitting player in the majors, but he will never play here in Atlanta as a catcher, and no you just can’t throw the idea of moving him to first base as a way around the position conflict with Brian McCann.

By moboman

December 5, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

I dont think Vasquez was a bad aquisition, but we paid too much. When a kid shows as much potential as Flowers has recently, you make someone else “overpay” to get him. He may or may not pan out in the majors, but at this point in his development, after that AZ showing, you get more value than what we got for him.

By amicusterrae

December 5, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

The Wainwright trade looks bad in hindsight, but he is one of the few prospects the Braves have traded over the years that has developed into a good player.
Maybe Flowers will join that short list, but he is just a prospect that can absolutely crush mistakes and has weak defense. You can’t just rely solely on the farm if you want to be a consistently good team. The homegrown nucleus that fueled the Braves recent dominance was historic. And, even so, it took fill-ins from elsewhere via trade or free agency to make it succeed. How good would the Braves have been without Pendleton, McGriff, and Maddux, just to name a few? Even Smoltz was not a Braves draft pick. The biggest difference with the current team is that the last few waves of minor leaguers have not been stellar (apart from McCann who could be a HOFer).

By moboman

December 5, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Flowers should have been part of a Peavy deal.

And keep on keepin on Furman, your still the best columnist ever!!!

By ASN

December 5, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

I know that a lot of people feel skeptical about the Vazquez trade. But, if the Braves had signed Vazquez after getting a true Ace (say Peavy or AJ), the Vazquez deal would be gravy and no one would be complaining. He’s simply a middle of the rotation guy who will play hard. No one expects him to be the #1 guy. Let’s wait for the Braves to make all of their moves this offseason, and then we can pass judgment.

By steve

December 5, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

The braves do need a couple of starting pitchers; they also need at least 2 power hitters and so far all we seem to hear about is pitching , we will lose a lot of 4-3 games if we do not come up with some more hitting . I hated to see us lose Flowers as he appeared to be one of our future stars.

By Brian

December 5, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this

CW, I agree with you, because this team won all those years and it’s fresh in a lot of people’s mind, you can’t just dismantle that kind of team and expect people to stick around and wait it out- at least it makes it a hell of a lot harder to do! Attendance plays a huge part in teams not wanting to go the rebuilding route, plus we’re really not that far away from being a very good team, trading for a Vazquez is NOT a big deal and DAMNIT, we need Burnett or some top pitcher to take over for awhile!!

By Kenneth Simpson

December 5, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this

I agree with you 100%. The trade for Vasquez I feel will be a bust. They traded a good player in Flowers who has power and is a catcher which the braves have very few of on farm because they have given them all away. It makes me sick to think they rented JD and gave away 2 starting pitchers and as you said Wainright is the ace of the cardinals staff. I hope Flowers does well and comes back to haunt the braves somewhere down the road. The braves just don’t have enough sense to bring up the young players and let them play. They had play someone like Corky Miller who hit about 1/2 his weight and give Salty away and now Flowers. On the AJC wedsite the reported is saying the braves will admit they have a little ways to go to be the dominant beast they once were and she pointed out Flowers as one of the bright superstars the braves have. I got news for her, he will star somewhere else long after Vasquez and his inflated ERA is gone and probably after the braves finish last for 5-6 seasons. I once liked the idea of them finishing last so they could get good draft picks they don’t have sense enough to keep them so why bother drafting them. They will just give them away for a rental player for one year or some washed up pitcher. They will trade Hanson before its over with, mark my word!

By Hillbilly Deluxe

December 5, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

This trade reminds me of the Len Barker deal.

By Saff

December 5, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

Wow the negativity of most of you people. I can say the Braves farm system is still one of the best in all of baseball. McCann, Francouer, Johnson, Escobar they are young and diden’t come up that long ago. Also look at the talent on the way Jordan Schafer, Gorky, Tommy Hanson, Jayson Heyward, Freddie Freeman and so on. Last season was awful and mostly because of all of the injuries no team and i mean NO TEAM could have survived that. With the winter meetings less than a week away big moves are ahead lets wait and see what moves ther Braves can make to mix in an ace to carry the staff and a power hitting left feilder. GO BRAVES!!

By MSC Brave

December 5, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

I disagree! The Braves have spent the last few years trying to pull a rabbit (aka: all star) out of their hat and aside from Kelly Johnson and Brian McCann, they haven’t done anything with anyone from down on the Farm.

The Braves need to make a couple of big moves to go with the talent they already have. If they can get another proven starter we should be good.

Hopefully Frank takes it one step further and signs the likes of Adam Dunn and puts a smasher in the middle of the lineup.

The only real concern I have after all that is said and done is Where is our Closer going to come from?

By Big Mac

December 5, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

The Braves were so good during the 14 Pennant runs primarily because they had tons of development in their system…TRUE, however, it was also because the other teams in the division were so bad. They would win tons of games 3-2 and so on, but only if their ace was up against the other teams #3 or so because hitting was (is) so bad. Once in power, other teams started to hold up for a ransom during trades and Schuerholz did a VERY poor job in getting an equal return for 1 player. I do not remember very many trades where we got multiple players in return for someone. Now the farm system is filled with holes and kids with plenty of POTENTIAL, but will not ever get to produce at the MLB level because now we have young guys in place who are struggling from being forced to play everyday too early in their development. Bisher is an old fossil and he has it all wrong; it’s not Wren, but Schuerholtz who put us in this position. The only thing Wren can do is fire Pendleton before he ruins the young players like Francouer or Escobar who used to be able to hit…he ruined Giles’ career and put him out of the game at 28.

By Kenneth Simpson

December 5, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

Amen to Hillbilly Deluxe. It also reminds me of the Len Barker so called trade too. Remember Brett Butler? He was a sparkplug for years and what did Len Barker do? They also gave Cleveland a pretty good 3rd baseman in the deal I think his name was Brook Jacoby. Brett Butler was a sparkplug for Cleveland, the Giants, and the Dodgers and maybe another team but I am not sure.

By wow

December 5, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

Furman, how about you let Vazquez play a game in the NL before you start ripping this trade? I remember when a bunch of whiners (you are probably included) said that the Andy Marte for Edgar Renteria trade was terrible but look at where Marte is now. No where. Renteria did everything in his power to make us great those two seasons and it was certainly no fault of his own that the team didn’t play better. Point in case, Vazquez could easily be in the mid to low 3 ERA range this season while Flowers could never pan out.

P.S WE TRADED FOR JURRJENS

By used cars

December 5, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

What about this deal is similar to Barker….A pitcher for prospects…not really because Butler was no longer a prospect, he was a player….To compare a rookie league pitcher and Flowers to AAA studs Jacoby and Behanna is a stretch…To compare Vazquez, who has been a healthy and productive starter on a consistent basis for almost 10 years to a one-year wonder like Barker is a bigger stretch..Barker was brought in down the stretch because the Dodgers got Rick Honeycutt, who as a ground ball pitcher would have been perfect for “The Launching Pad”, instead Torre, Gibson, et al went after an injury prone flyball pitcher in Barker..

By Hoosier Aaron

December 5, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this

I think to a certain degree - the Bravos are a victim of their own success.

Finishing in first place for 14 straight years - results in some very low first round picks - plus those picks are not protected when we signed a free agent.

When you are in the pennant race for 14 or more years - come July 31 - you are a “buyer” not a “seller” - therefore good prospects are leaving to obtain major league talent to help in the playoffs. It takes talent to get talent.

With that being said - our starting line-up on Opening Day 2009 could be -

C- McCann 2nd - Johnson SS - Escobar 3B - Jones RF- Franceour CF - Schafer

6 of 8 eight “regulars” are home grown.

Not to slam our pitching coach - but Leo might of had something to do with the success of pitchers during his time here too…I personally think he did.

By Maniac is accurate

December 5, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

Tex for Saltamachia was a pretty even swap, though if he wasn’t seen as a longterm 1B, I wouldn’t have made the deal. You could have gotten a good starting pitcher for Salty. And, to me, Flowers seems like too strong a prospect to give up for Vasquez, but I like adding him to the rotation. I just think Flowers will be an All-Star in a few years and that Vasquez might not help us anymore than Dick Ruthven did back in the day.

By David

December 5, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

If the Braves want to wait 2-3 years until their farm system turns into major league talent, and not even be in contention during that time, then fine. Don’t trade for Vasquez, don’t sign Burnett. The fact of the matter is by acquiring these two pitches, the Braves have put themselves in a better position to win now and in no way altered their farm system’s potential.

Tyler Flowers isn’t even one of the Braves top-5 prospects. That is how deep their farm system goes. He is a catcher. As far as I am concerned Brian McCann is not only the best catcher in the league, but will be an Atlanta Brave through 2012. For those who argue that Flowers could play first, that argument has no ground. Kotchman is an affordable solution for the next two season before Frederick Freeman is ready. For those who don’t know who this guy is, you should do your research. He was the Braves second pick behind Jason Heyward (don’t even get me started on his future in left field).

If the Braves don’t get Burnett, I’m afraid what Wren will give up to get an ace. That is when we can talk about how Wren handles his farm system. Until then, all Brave fans need to be patient, hope for some good luck this season, and understand that by 2011, the 3-4 punch of Heyward and Freeman will make opposing pitchers terrified.

By Jerry

December 5, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

Lillibridge is going to be a good player. He has good defense but struggled on his hitting. Thats what you do when you first start out in the majors.

I would try and sign the Ibanez for a couple of years but try and move Heyward in sooner. I would rather see Heyward than Schafer.

I ask you this. If McCann gets hurt who will be our cather.

Can we count on Frenchy bouncing back from a horrible year. We hope he does but how many years did we watch Andruw be right on the brink of getting it when he would swing at one in the dirt and go back to step one for 2 months.

If we had 40 million and had included Flowers in the Peavy trade we would have gotten him and had 24 million, then get Javier Vasquez would have left us 13 million to get that outfielder. Ibanez.

We need someone to come in here and fire this team up. That’s right Rah Rah.

I wish we had brought Don Baylor back as the hitting coach and future successor to Cox. Please retire sir.

McCann is our man and he needs to call people out if needed. I don’t care who it is.

Chipper has one more year and who do we have to take his place.

Would Maddux come out of retirement to come back to the Braves for one final year for say $8 million. He’s an innings eatter.

What has happened to Brad Penny.

Kotchman at 1st Johnson at 2nd Escobar at short Chipper at 3rd Frenchy in right Anderson in center McCann at catcher Ibanez in left utility outfielders in Heyward and Schafer utility catcher in Ross utility infielders in Infante and Prado

That leaves room for 13 pitchers

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 5, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

Mr. Bisher,

With all due respect, this is a bit of an embarrassing article for an Atlanta sportswriter to write. It frankly shows a bit of an ignorance regarding the home team. Trading one top prospect equates to “failing to keep the farm stocked”??? That’s simply not the case.

In case you haven’t noticed, the Braves would have Jake Peavy if not for Frank Wren’s flat-out refusal to trade Tommy Hanson. He has also refused to trade Jason Heyward, and there are other prospects that he has indicated are pretty close to untouchable — Freddie Freeman, Jordan Schaefer, Gorkys Hernandez, Julio Teheran. See Hoosier Aaron’s 5:23pm post for homegrown players on the major league club.

By the way, it’s unlikely that Tyler Flowers would have a spot in Atlanta — Brian McCann is going to be Atlanta’s catcher for a while, and Freddie Freeman is a strong candidate to be the club’s future 1B.

So please, before writing another article in which you criticize something about a team, do your homework first.

By fieldofdreams

December 5, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this

I agree: Frank is Wren over his head.

By Cooper S

December 5, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

No offense, but please tell me this is a joke. The Braves have arguable the third best system in baseball. They have elite talent (Heyward, Hanson, Freeman) and significant depth. Absolutely absurd.

By Jeff321

December 5, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

Furman is the only one at this paper that speaks the truth!

The only part he left out was getting rid of Bobby Cox. Notice how Bobby Cox just loves Vazquez? I don’t suppose he had anything to do with bringing this sub par pitcher to Atlanta, eh?

By N. Tyler Ayers

December 5, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

I am so glad that someone has said it. Wren is acting like 32 year old pitchers with injury problems will somehow not get injured all season long. Also, the fact that he is STUPID and trades one of the hotter prospects in Flowers but ALSO throws in other prospects that would be usefull this season. AHHHHHHHHH FIRE WREN NOW!!!!

By Jeff321

December 5, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

No spot for Flowers on this team? Fine. So, why not give him away for crap. Oh wait, we already did.

By Nick

December 5, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Hmmm interesting stuff given that as where we currently stand in regards to the 2009 potential starting lineup:

1B: Casey Kotchman (trade) 2B: Kelly Johnson: “homegrown” SS: Yunel Escobar: “homegrown” 3B: Chipper Jones: “homegrown” C: Brian McCann: “homegrown” RF: Jeff Francouer: “homegrown” CF: Jordan Schaffer: “homegrown” LF: Matt Diaz (trade) / Rain Ludwick (trade) / ? (trade) / Heyward “homegrown”

SP - A.J. Burnett / Peavy (trade) SP- Javy Vazquez (trade) SP - Jair Jurrjens (trade) SP - Jorge Campillo SP - Tommy Hanson / Jo Jo Reyes /Charlie Morton “homegrown”

I’m seeing quite a few names that have come up solely through the Braves minor league system there. Maybe I miscounted though…

By matt

December 5, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this

Amen!!! Vasquez has proven nothing other than he’s a sub .500 pitcher with an almost 5.0 ERA. We just traded our hottest prospect next to Hanson for him?!?!?!?!?!?! But you wouldn’t trade him for a pitcher 1 year removed from winning the Cy Young?!?!?!?!? WTF?!?!?!

By Randy S

December 5, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

Tyler Flowers has played zero games above A-ball. So he is supposed to be our first baseman this year?

In addition to the home grown talent that kicked off the run of division championships, the Braves signed a few free agents that yall might remember: Terry Pendleton, Sid Bream, Rafael Belliard, to aleeser extent Deion Sanders and later Greg Maddux. And also traded for Otis Nixon, Alejandro Pena and Charlie Liebrandt and later Fred McGriff.

The claim that the Braves didn’t sign or trade for players that helped them is as absurd as saying that the farm is in disarray. The Braves have one of the best-stocked farm systems (even after the Tex trade) by any (informed) observer’s opinion.

By LivininAL

December 5, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this

Im so tired so still seeing people recall the 14 division titles…Ee played better than 4 other weak teams in the division. Anyone noticed how much the Phillies Marllins Mets have improved or the last few years? They are not getting it all from the farm. Those days are gone. With free agency there is no loyalty. Better get some more pitching from somewhere…or next year will be worse.

By MattyO

December 5, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this

Wren has been the GM for how long? He’s failing to keep the farm stocked? Are you serious? Ever heard of Tommy Hanson, Jason Heyward, Freddie Freeman, Jordan Schafer, Julio Teheran….? Just because he traded Flowers, who wouldn’t have anywhere to play and is still a ways away from the big leagues. Vazquez in no ace but he doesn’t have to be. You need a guy like him in a rotation. Right now the team is on the verge of their young talent making an impact in Atlanta. You can’t have young guys coming up every year. I think Wren is doing a good job filling up the farm system, especially this year’s past draft. Sounds like a lot of good arms in there. I understand what Bisher is trying to say, build from within, but I think Wren understands that and that is what he is doing. But building from within also means using pieces to trade that immediate help the team. So the article was a nice try but not very credible. Go Braves!

By Apollo

December 5, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

Ridiculous article.

By Apollo

December 5, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this

I could have this guy’s job and I’m not yet 18. The Braves have an awesome farmsystem, and didn’t deal but one highly touted guy to get Vazquez. And that guy was very much blocked. Bisher is looking like the fair weather fan’s reporter. So enjoy it, fair weather fans.

By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)

December 5, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this

Apollo, get ready revel in another R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S losing season. Bisher is right. I watched the press conference today. Seeing Cox ,Vasquez and Wren sitting side by side brought one thing to mind.

The THREE STOOGES. Mo, Larry and Curly.

By Mekons5

December 5, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this

Oh, come on. Our system is healthy, we have at least six terrific prospects and several good ones, young pitching, very young pitching in the rookie leagues, etc.

We’ve given up some good prospects for immediate help, but the only ones we’re likely to truly regret are Wainwright and Andrus. In both cases, they filled gaping holes in our team. We would not have won one year without J.D. Drew, and Tex did everything we needed, but the rest of the team fell apart.

With Schafer, Heyward, Freeman, Gorkys, Hanson, Rohrbaugh, Locke, etc. on the way, we are in good shape.

As for Burnett and Vazquez, I’ve seen both pitch frequently, living in Chicago. Both have great stuff and one weakness: losing focus at key times. The Braves have been very, very good at keeping pitchers focused.

I really get sick of this doom and gloom. We’re probably not going to win this coming year, but we will come close and will be positioned to win big in 2010.

If we get Burnett and Hanson makes the team and Frenchy plays like he did as a rookie, it might even come faster.

By Marty

December 5, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this

What a silly contention. I’m glad that the fools who have enjoyed lambasting the Vazquez trade and whining about the sad state of affairs of the Brave have somewhere to complain to each other now, though; maybe they’ll stay here instead of bothering the rest of us.

By Nelson

December 5, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

I think Big Mac has a good point!!!. I don’t know why they don’t make an offer to Don Baylor, remember he made Chipper hit homeruns hitting righty. Terry P. is a good guy, but as far as I know he has not solved not even one problem yet when a hitter is in a deep slump, and we had plenty of guys in that situation.

By Nelson

December 5, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this

As far as they don’t trade Yunel I’m happy, I like the move, Vazquez is an inning eater, we need one badly to rest the bullpen!

By Royceb

December 5, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this

Kinda hard to compare stocking the farm system now after so many top finishes to the crop coming up in the early 90’s when the Braves were mostly getting one of the top five picks in the draft every year.

Can’t draft another Chipper Jones when you are drafting 18th!

By Pickens

December 5, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

Everyone RELAX! Vasquez is a number 3 guy. If we get Burnett or Peavy then we have a foundation for our pitching staff. Burnett, Jurrjens, Wasquez, Smoltz, Glavine, Morton, or Campillo. Frank Wren has done a great job in my opinion and he does everything under the radar. I agree the trade for Tex two years ago sort of washed away our farm system but we have recovered b drafting well. With the likes of Schaffer, Hernandez, Heyward, Hanson, Locke, Freeman, etc. we have a solid base for the future. Another thing that gets overlooked is that Wren did not trade away 2 to 3 prospects for Peavy because he realized he couldn’t be impatitent and pull the trigger and he needs to recieve credit for that.!!

By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)

December 5, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this

Mike Hampton is gone and Vasquez has taken his place.

Hampton was 2-3 with an ERA of 3.72 in his last ten starts with nine of them being quality starts.

Vasquez was 4-6 with an ERA of 4.48 with five quality starts in ten trips to the mound.

To think that the Braves starting pitching is better right now than when the season ended is the epitome of blind optimism.

By Pickens

December 5, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

Coach,

What do you know about Braves baseball? I seriously would like to know your thoughts on how Frank Wren can do a better job building a championship caliber team? I’m pretty for sure your ideas are hopeless!

By Curtis

December 5, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this

WOW. Frank Wrens been on the job for a year!!! Who is this writer? Does he own a tv? Hard to restock the farm when your trying to contend and you’ve only been the GM for a year. Plus does he know that Vazquez had a terrible year in a HR haven against superior AL talent. Flowers is blocked by McCann and Freeman is a better 1b prospect. Flowers had nowhere to go. Lillibridge is an average SS prospect not a cant miss superstar and the other 2 are toss ups.

By Chris

December 5, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

Some valid points, but seems a little over-simplified. Smoltz and Maddux weren’t from the Braves’ farm system, and they were certainly key parts of the Braves success for years. On hindsight, we all agree that the Tex trade was a bad idea, but at the time most of us thought it gave the Braves a chance to get to the playoffs in 2007, and we were for that.

I think that from a fan’s perspective, one of the biggest draws to using your farm system instead of trading them away is the excitement that comes when the kids get promoted to the bigs—it can be almost as exciting for the fans as it is for the players. When Hansen comes up to pitch his first game, that would be more tempting to come see than just about any veteran pitcher.

But I do still like the Vazquez trade. I know we all got real starry-eyed about Flowers and his hot streak, but in reality, the only we know for sure is that he isn’t ready yet. On the other hand, the last few months notwithstanding, we know Vazquez is a durable quality pitcher.

I have noticed that over the last few years it doesn’t seem like as many Braves minor leagers are getting as much press as other teams, but with Hansen, Heyward, and Freeman, that is changing. Also, they are all just prospects when they are scouted, and no one can always predict who the real stars will be a few years from now.

By Jay Jay

December 5, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

This is pretty silly considering the Braves are thought to have one of the top minor league systems in the game. If the Braves are failing here then the 25 teams with worse systems than them are just flat out dying.

By Gregory M Smith

December 5, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this

Kenneth Simpson….If ignorance is bliss you must be one happy mofo. Tyler Flowers is a DH in the American league. the Brqaves did not give up 2 starters in the JD deal. Get a life. I think you are a closet Mets fan

By Hawes

December 5, 2008 11:13 PM | Link to this

Oh, we’re developing talent alright. Just ask the Texas Rangers, they’re loving our talent right now.

By justafan

December 5, 2008 11:50 PM | Link to this

Agree, Agree, Agree. But you missed another point The Braves will never win again with Bobby Cox. His time has past. The Braves need new blood. Someone like Smoltz would be a good mgr. and put some life back in the Braves. Now rip me up.

By jlb

December 6, 2008 12:11 AM | Link to this

I think Furman has it about right, no matter how any given trade works out. The farm has produced some position players, yes, but no starting pitchers. Chuck James had the most success recently, and now he’s out with shoulder problems. We are hoping that the group of Jo Jo, Morton, Parr, Lerew, et al will yield at least one or two ML pitchers. But the problem there is that, even if a few do catch on, it could well be with other teams. The Top 50 Prospects show Neftali Feliz among them, in the Texas system due to the Teixeira trade, and Matt Harrison is already in the Texas rotation. Furman mentioned Adam Wainwright. And Kyle Davies turned in a creditable performance for KC last season as well. Meanwhile, the Braves pursue Burnett, as if he is the second coming of Koufax. This organization has given up on its own young players. As soon as they show any signs of promise, they become trading chips. The results speak for themselves.

By bobh

December 6, 2008 12:12 AM | Link to this

I am an Atlanta Braves fan living in St. Louis. After watching Ryan Ludwig last year, I can tell you that he would make a fine addition to the Braves outfield.

By DMBJAMS

December 6, 2008 12:16 AM | Link to this

This column was a painful read.

By jlb

December 6, 2008 12:20 AM | Link to this

As for drafting position, it might be worth noting that Brandon Webb was an 8th rounder and Peavy was a 15th round pick. Braves took Francouer ahead of Matt Cain. Talent is available, and the Braves have gotten some of it. They just don’t bring it to the ML level.

By R. F******* Henderson

December 6, 2008 12:20 AM | Link to this

Blaming Wren for not keeping the system stocked is extremely weak considering he’s been through one amateur draft. Add to that that there is still exceptional to quality talent in the system in Tommy Hanson, Jason Heyward, Jordan Schafer, Freddie Freeman, Cole Rohrbough, Julio Teheran, Jeffrey Locke, Kris Medlen and Cody Johnson.

You can knock on Vazquez’s inflated ERA, but it’s somewhat mistelling in that he consistently has great control numbers, is relatively difficult to hit, and has some of the best FIP numbers out there. The guy consistently throws up 200 innings and 200 K’s. And if you’re ignorant enough to knock his being a sub-.500 pitcher, the guy once went 10-13 while throwing up a 3.91, followed by a mere 13-12 after throwing 3.24 ball all year for terrible Montreal teams. Next to saves, wins are the most worthless “statistic” out there.

As much as I hate to see Flowers go, he had nowhere to play as he was blocked by Schafer, Freeman is a comparable to better 1B prospect, and Flowers was 22—23 next year—and still in A ball.

Even though in retrospect the Tex trade looks bad, consider that Andrus was and still is blocked by Yunel Escobar, Salty was blocked by McCann and he was probably an average bat at 1B at best, and Feliz was an 18 year old fresh off his first season of Rookie ball, and as most anyone can tell you projecting young pitchers from A-ball up is a crapshoot given the attrition that an organization can take. Doesn’t make the trade any better now, but the move was and to some extent still is justified.

If you want to compare Burnett’s injury history to somebody, choose someone better than Adam Wainwright, who lost 12 to 13 starts to the DL last year, missed most of 2004 in the minors with an injury, and has misses time here and there throughout his minor league career. Sure it’s not Tommy John, but I would say he compares better to the infamous Mike Hampton and his strained quads/pecks/shoulders more than Burnett’s reconstructive elbow surgery. That, and without J.D. Drew in 2004, who had an All-Star and perhaps even MVP type year, the Braves likely miss the playoffs.

In addition, of Bisher’s examples, only Lopez was a signing. Vazquez (TR CWS-Flowers), Ortiz (TR SF-Damian Moss), and Hampton (TR FLA-Spooneybarger) were all acquired with pre-existing contracts using pieces of this so-called weak farm system. It’s incredibly difficult to have any journalistic credibility if you 1: don’t know the extent of the talent currently in the system that you are openly criticizing and 2: can’t even provide solid facts in your argument.

-R. F******* Henderson iamjacksbb.blogspot.com

By bravesfanbob

December 6, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this

While I think the importance of developing talent in the minor leagues is high, it doesn’t translate into major league wins. Look at the San Francisco Giants organization. They have won more games, division titles, and league championships in the minor leagues in the last 3 years than any other organization in baseball. And while it is beginning to translate into wins in the majors, but they are having to sign free agents to be able to compete in a not very good division. People who pay for the tickets at Turner Field do not care how our minor leagues are faring, as long as the big club is winning. Last year is a perfect example. They go 72-90, and attendance was the worst since 1990. Do you think attendance would have stayed high if management would have said to the fans, “We’re sorry about the way things are going this year. But we want you to continue to keep coming out, because we have a wonderful farm system.” In a word…NO! Frank Wren is playing the hand he was dealt. He was left a team in transition. He had 4 pitchers on his staff last year who had won 20 games at least once, (Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton, and Hudson), and it’s possible that NONE of them will be back….Smoltz may be back later, but probably in the bullpen. So since we don’t have the great young arms in the minors, you use what you have to get the best you can. Will Vasquez be great? I don’t think so. But will he be good, and be a workhorse? Absolutely! And his coming to the Braves before the free agents begin to sign tells them that the Braves want to do what they need to do to win now. A.J. Burnett will be MUCH more likely to sign since we traded for Vasquez. Also, it shows San Diego that we are not going to worry about Jake Pevey. And seeing the offer that we made Burnett may make the Padres act fast to close a deal with the Braves before Burnett signs.

The whole thing in a nutshell is that the minors filled with talent is a very nice thing, but a winning team in the majors is what puts butts in the seats. Frank Wren is trying to do that. Furman, you’re not very often off base, but you got picked off on this one.

By Bravestillidie

December 6, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this

Normally I’m not into name calling, but Bisher, you sir, are an idiot.

I notice you appear to be sticking the blame on Frank Wren but your two biggest examples are trades that were made before Frank took over in October of 2007.

This is just anoth space filler in my opinion, go find something notworthy to write about. If this is your best attempt at a baseball article then leave it to Mr. O’Brien who knows what he is talking about, whereas you so obviously do not.

“The end is nigh” quoth Furman Bisher….stick a sock in it.

Go Braves.

BTID

By Smurf

December 6, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this

The Braves still have talent in the minors and didn’t trade the true untouchables like Hanson, Schaeffer[?-sp], etc. The farm system isn’t just for producing players for the big team—it’s for producing talent to trade for proven pros. People said the sky was falling when Chen, Marte, Bowie, Betemit, that 100mph throwing guy to BAL, etc were dealt. All were destined for the HOF or the all star game every year. All prospects don’t pan out nor is a great team gonna be wholly home grown. The Braves won big w/ homegrown stars and by dealing others for Grissom, McGriff, Pena, Devereaux, and so on.

By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)

December 6, 2008 1:48 AM | Link to this

Frank Wren has been on the job for the better part of the last nine years with the Braves. Eight as the assistant GM to John Schuerholz and one as the GM himself. He deserves some of the blame. But not all of it.

Wren made two very astute trades last year followed by four more so far. Some of the trades have been successful while others have not.

First, the Renteria for Jurrjens and Hernandez was a slam dunk success.

Second, the Jose Ascanio for Omar Infante, Will Ohman trade was highway robbery. The Cubs were held up and cleaned out.

Third, the Joey Devine, Jamie Richmond for Mark Kotsay trade was a mistake. Billy Beane got the best end of this deal.

Fourth, the signing of Tom Glavine blew up in Wren’s face. But it wasn’t his fault, injuries are an unwanted and unpredictable part of the game.

Fifth, Javier Vasquez is an inning eating, durable, underachieving career disappointment who will take some heat off the bullpen. Jon Garland could have done the same without the loss of four young players.

Sixth, David Ross is an excellent pick up. He plays great defense, brings instant veteran leadership, calls a good game, has a rocket arm and some pop in his bat.

By Chop Chop

December 6, 2008 2:13 AM | Link to this

Good job, Furman. I don’t know if you even read these blogs, but whether you do or not, you deserve credit for writing about stuff like this at age 90. The punks who are giving you lip don’t understand how ridiculous it is to whine. You were born a week before Armistice Day, for Pete’s sake. Lord knows I only hope I’ll be around with a lucid mind at that age.

By Billy

December 6, 2008 3:02 AM | Link to this

Bisher, I am afraid you are just uninformed. Keep up the lack of research.

By R. F. Henderson

December 6, 2008 4:55 AM | Link to this

Jon Garland couldn’t replicate anything close to what Vazquez can do on a year to year basis. Garland allows way more base runners, as represented by a career WHIP more than a tenth higher than Vazquez. They walk about the same amount of batters, give up HR at about the same rate, and both eat innings and that’d about as comparable as they are. Vazquez strikes out about twice the hitters Garland does and is way less hittable. Garland is the product of the defense behind him. His breakthrough year didn’t come until 2005 after the Sox replaced Ben Davis, Willie Harris, Jose Valentin, and Carlos Lee with Pierzynski, Tad Iguchi, Uribe, and Podsednik. His DIPS are inferior to Vazquez which is why he can be anywhere from good (2005) to horrendous (2008) any given year. That, and I guarantee you he makes a hell of a lot more than the $11.5 mil Vazquez is getting the next two years in this free agent market.

By richbrave

December 6, 2008 7:31 AM | Link to this

BISHER:

JOHN SMOLTZ is not “….home-grown produce.” He was traded for by using DOYLE ALEXANDER as the bait.

By Mark

December 6, 2008 7:35 AM | Link to this

maybe things will be okay

By Bartman

December 6, 2008 7:41 AM | Link to this

Yes to the Smurf! Furman….nice article and it is good for discussion…but that’s it. The team of the 90’s+ did have some home grown talent. But it was also a mix of free agents, Pendelton, Bream, various backend pitchers and trades, McGriff, Grissom. Also, as we all know, Smoltz was a product of a trade as well. This team will have the same. We will have our homegrown players at catcher, 2nd base, 3rd base, shortstop and right field with highly rated prospects coming for 1st and the outfield. I will agree that the Tex trade was a waste. If we couldn’t gaurntee signing that guy for 5 years, that deal should have never been done. The Rangers did a killer job in that trade. Loosing Flowers on the surface stinks. I saw him take batting practice in spring training. He made EVERYONE turn their heads. Cox, Chipper…fans….he crushed…anyway, we do need servicable arms and Vasquez is that. Also, we got more than just Kotchman for Tex. Watch out for the two arms we got in that deal as well…

By Kenneth Simpson

December 6, 2008 7:53 AM | Link to this

Gregory M. Smith-The last time I noticed Jason Marquis was a starting pitcher for the Cubs and before that he started for the Cardinals. He along with Adam Wainright and Ray King went to the Cardinals for the JD rental.

By Jeff R

December 6, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this

Amen, Furman… it’s all about building from within.

By Corb

December 6, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

FURMAN: DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU TYPE!!

By man of peace

December 6, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

Bisher what’s your problem? It’s nearly impossible for any farm system to produce a Cy Young winner.There’s no guarantee that any prospect will have success in the majors. The braves were lucky to have Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and Avery at the same time. 3 of which will go to the Hall of Fame and only 2 were produced by the braves farm system. You should track all the supposed great talent the Braves have traded away. You’d be surprised at the lack of success. Tony Tarasco (supposedly the next Robert Clemente)? Melvin Nieves? David Nied? Jason Marquis has been inconsistent. The list goes on. Who from the trade for Texiera has been successful? Saltalamacchia? It’s 50/50 for any prospect. The problem is sports has become “WIN NOW” or suffer the consequences. No one has patience for rebuilding. Just because the Braves last few trades haven’t worked out and put the Braves in the playoffs, isn’t reason to imply the team has lost it’s focus at the farm level. 3 years without a playoff? Get over it. How many teams have gone 5, 10 , 15 years with no playoffs?

By ED

December 6, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

I think the problem is in the scouting dept. Outside of Wainwright who is last good arm to be traded away?? Harrison may turn out to be a good arm and Minor may but outside of that name one good pitcher that was grown in the ATL farm system to excel away from the ATL. It’s easy to sit here and raise cain about the moves that are made but at least they are trying to compete. If Wren and the braves were sitting back doing nothing we would all be mad as h*. The cubburd is not bare at all. We have some of the best talent in the MLB in our farm system. Wren has identified a hand full of players that he will not part with. People are mad that we parted with Flowers but where was he going to play?? Cather?? I don’t think so. First?? Kotchman is under control for 4 more years and is he better than Freddie Freeman?? I don’t think so. Corner Outfield?? Yeah that is just what we need a defensive liability like Pat Burrell or Adam Dunn. This is a kid that was considered the 6th or 7th best prospect we have. His value is high coming off of his fall league performance. Now was the time to trade him. Consider that we got a middle of the rotation guy for a player who may have never played for ATL and is two years away at best. Lillabridge will be a utility guy at best. He refused to go play in the fall league after a terrible season last year. Do we want a guy who is obviously content with hitting .220 in AAA?? I could go on and on about other trades and players that left but I will not bore everyone. We need the scouts to hunker down and find some elite arms. But Wren is doing a very good job and J.S. did a great job too.

By bravo 1

December 6, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

sounds like Terence Mooore’s idiotic babble to me. Now we have the 2 worst sports writters in the country.

By Larry A

December 6, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

I think you are suffering from memory issues.

John Smoltz came from Detroit. Greg Maddux came from Chicago. The only pitcher the Braves “developed” was Glavine and they went and got Maddux because they decided Glavine would not be a top flight “Ace” if you recall.

Steve Avery lasted for two years before he hurt his arm and he was never more than good - certainly never excellent.

Then there is a long line of traded for 4 slot starters. Along with other stop gap positions like CF(otis nixon, marquis grissom etc), 1b (McGriff, Galleraga).

It is frustrating when the people who follow this stuff everyday continue to create the misconception that the Braves farm system was ever some kind of magic production place. The fact is they have produced a fair number of role players over the years, and a few stars. A few have met good success other places (Dye, Bradley for example). Very few of our pitchers have had continued success elsewhere - some have had a good year here or there.

The fact is they got lucky with Maddux and Smoltz. Teamed with Glavine, they carried the team for a decade. If the braves had truly been smart, they would have traded the three of them when they had high market value and gotten some good young pitchers in return but they did not - they let them fade away into the sunset and got basically nothing back in return. Earl Weaver retired from the Orioles for the same reason, the pitchers were getting old and management refused to trade them when they had value and could have brought a high return. Within two years of his retirement, the Orioles “Big Three” in the late 70s, Jim Palmer was done, Scott MacGregor was completely ineffective and Mike Flannagan was relegated to bullpen.

The Braves should have traded Chipper a couple years ago for the same reason, he is about used up and someone may think they can milk a couple years out of him and maybe win a championship with him, and give up good young talent for it. You don’t hold onto these aging stars until they are ineffective, you trade them when they have value.

By JonKK

December 6, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

This column surprised me. As a Cubs fan I wish that system had as many strong prospects. Minor League Baseball just released their top 50 prospects — Heyward and Hanson are in the top 25. There are 30 organizations, so that’s outstanding. (Yes, Feliz and Andrus are in the top 25 too.)

Baseball Prospect is currently examining top prospects. They list Heyward and Hanson as 5-Star Prospects and Schafer, Hernandez and Freeman as 4-Star Prospects. Right behind them are Teheran and Rohrbough.

Maybe there weren’t many top-line prospects coming up in the past few years, but I’m sorry sir, I don’t think you know the current system that well.

By Bravo4.4

December 6, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

I agree with ED. Flowers even said he wouldn’t want to play first anyways and we aren’t looking too bad right now (Farm-wise). I mean, compare us to the Cub’s farm system. And, like ED said, at least they are trying to do something. If they just stuck with this team we have now, we won’t go anywhere. He’s trying to make something happen.

By Wally Butts, Frank Sinkwich, Bobby Jones, the good old days before those people were allowed to play

December 6, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

Bisher:

Why is the new pitcher Senor Vasquez instead of Mr. Vasquez? What is this peculiar commitment you have to needing to include some reference to a player’s nationality or ethnicity instead of just writing about the subject at hand and veering into the land of good ol boy with thinly veiled contempt toward athletes who do not look like you?

Just a thought.

Maybe it’s because employing that dog-eared device is what you and your legions of shallow thinkers assume passes for actual research. Bulletin!!! (I am sure you remember when that was relevant notice of something important in media), it ain’t research.

Before slapping this gibberish together, you might have wanted to turn on the magic word processor — computer to those of us in 2008 — and take a gander at mlb.com (7 keystrokes and hit enter) where Heyward and Freeman are listed among baseball’s top 50 prospects. And there are more than that in the system so Wren is dealing from a position of strength.

It would be helpful to you and instructive to everyone else if you taped some keywords into Google (that’s a search engine, Bisher) once in a while, or at the very least checked baseball-related websites before wasting the precious, dwindling resources on your sports pages with navel-gazing nostalgia. It’s about making wise decision about the future for the Braves and similarly for everyone out here.

Join us.

By BigB

December 6, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

Furman, you really have no idea what your talking about..Do you watch baseball? Do you read and or comprehend statistics?Lets ask this question. . Isn’t it time for matlock?

By Samuel Alex

December 6, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

Here is my take on the recent trade. I kind of like the trade because we got a proven number 3 or 4 pitcher. Yes we gave up on Tyler Flowers but remember a few years ago when the Braves traded away a highly proven rookie in Andy Marte. Weel were is marte now. I don’t think he is burning up the AL.

By Steve

December 6, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

As usual, Mr Bisher has no ideas of his own, only critcisms. We gave up Flowers and a bunch of garbage in exchange for a solid #3 starter. What should the Braves do? Sit back and resign themselves to losing?

Also, the Braves did not sign Javier Vazquez, Russ Ortiz or Mike Hampton. They traded for those three players.

By Banjodr

December 6, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

Seems like someone so “in the know” would remember that the teams built from within in the 90s were with draft picks from the horrible 80’s teams and a lot of them. Now after the big run in the 90’s we have to build via trade in some cases and free agents deals in others. No one knows how this will pan out.

By JEB

December 6, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

FURMAN: A bad job on the farm?? OK let’s do a refresher here. We have Francouer in RF, the probability of Jordan Schafer in CF, Chipper at 3b, Yunel at SS, KJ at 2b, and McCann at catcher, Boyer in the bullpen, (and Moylan our farm system scouted and found), Morton, Reyes, Chuck James - are all on our current roster from our farm sytem. Also, a slew of coveted pitchers and position players that all of baseball wants RIGHT now in OUR farm system.

Right… the farm is in terrible condition. Not to mention the envy of all of baseball.

Someone wake Furman up and give him updated info!

By Earl

December 6, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

How can you possibly blame Wren for the condition of the Brave’s farm system? He has only been the GM for one year. Good grief!!!!!!!!! You say they have a depleted farm system but them you give those type accalade to Flowers. Give Wren credit that he didn’t have to trade away any of his pitching prospects, or at least what can be considered prospects at this time. Personally, I think the Braves farm system is loaded and this last trade didn’t affect that one ioda.

By Kal

December 6, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

This is the most absurd article anyone can write. Atlanta has one of the best farm system in all of MLB and if Furman doesn’t remember, Frank Wren took over the reins only a year ago. Other than Glavine, Avery and Millwood, Atlanta didn’t produce too many superstar pitchers. But, due to a great farm, we were able to trade for great players and kept winning for a long time.

By spotts

December 6, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

The Braves haven’t developed anyone recently? What about McCann? Or Escobar? Or Kelly? I’d take them over Javy, Blauser, and Lemke (the “hotshots” you listed).

How is the farm system not good now? There’s several players I’m excited about seeing soon. Tommy Hanson is about to be a stud, and in a few years Jason Heyward probably will be too. And there’s the others that are always listed (Schafer, Gorkys, Freeman) plus some others you don’t hear about too much (Rohrbough and Locke….big K pitchers).

And with the possible exception of Andrus, we didn’t give up much for Tex. Salty’s been a bust so far, Harrison seems about average, etc.

By Bob McBrayer

December 6, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Regardless of rhetoric, Dean Bisher is directionally correct as he most always is … and has been for some time now … those who pick his words miss his point(s), methinks.

We each have our view … I grew up watching the likes of Gene Verble and Country Brown … and Hank Williams too … long before free agency. Began reading Fruman in 1950, methinks …

Before reading his latest, I posted comments on theoldbarbershop about Vazquez … and later about AJ Burnett … and just now about David Ross.

I used different words and didn’t say it nearly as well as Mr. Bisher … but it was directionally the same, methinks … ” … Of course we want to see our heroes … those what have excited us and given us our magic moments … there may be exceptions but most of those were either home grown or came to us early in their careers … “our boys” … Dusty Baker, Dale Murphy, Bob Horner, the Jones’ boys … Larry and Andruw, Rafael Furcal, Felix Millan, David Justice, Javy Lopez, Ralph Garr, Phil Niekro, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Mark Wohlers … and Hank Aaron too.

This onion has many layers and besides, the fact that I buy young plants rather than plant the seeds don’t make my tomatoes “store bought” … they’re still home growed.

By Bob McBrayer

December 6, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

I hit the post key prematurely …

Those who would deride Mr. Bisher are sorely misguided … so doing bespeaks much and diminishes any possible import that might otherwise be given to your comments.

By Yo

December 6, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

Tyler can play first base, but then he loses his value. His big selling point is that he’s a good catcher with raw, raw power. He’s only played A-ball; too many people are anointing him already.

We signed Vazquez? I think we traded for him.

We did give up Neftali Feliz in the deal along with Andrus — those are the two biggest names succeeding as prospects. Salty doesn’t look as good, neither does Harrison, I’m pretty sure Jones is stinking it up.

Wren has had one draft and one year as GM. GIve him time before you attack his inability to develop ballplayers.

By JT

December 6, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this

Never have I agreed with you MORE Furman !! Since his elevation to GM, I have been watching Wren’s moves with increasing pain .. The man has NO baseball instincts what-so-ever ! Sure, John had spoiled us rotten with his magical touch, but this track record of Wren’s is sadly reaching the highest levels of incompetency .. John, while you may have had the ” Midas Touch ” for making great deals that always seemed strengthen the Braves, your choice ( if it was indeed your choice ) of your successor is an abysmal failure that will haunt the Braves for years to come !! Grrrrrrrrr !

By JT

December 6, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Never have I agreed with you MORE Furman !! Since his elevation to GM, I have been watching Wren’s moves with increasing pain .. The man has NO baseball instincts what-so-ever ! Sure, John had spoiled us rotten with his magical touch, but this track record of Wren’s is sadly reaching the highest levels of incompetency .. John, while you may have had the ” Midas Touch ” for making great deals that always seemed strengthen the Braves, your choice ( if it was indeed your choice ) of your successor is an abysmal failure that will haunt the Braves for years to come !! Grrrrrrrrr !

By toad

December 6, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Furman. You’re dead wrong. You don’t follow Braves baseball closely enough to even have an opinion.

By kcbraves

December 6, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

JT what are you smoking? because honestly id love to get down on some of that. Wren has done a more than adequate job thus far in his tenure as gm. it was just a little over year ago that he stole jurrjens and gorkys from detroit for renteria. I believe that he got absolutely the best he could back from the angels for the half season of teixeira. Now he acquires an above average pitcher for a catcher whos never played above A-ball and youre gonna b!tch and moan and question his competency? especially when we already have the best offensive catcher in the game already in atlanta? That makes absolutely no sense to me. so maybe you can explain to me JT where this incompetence comes from because i seriously would love to hear it

By rick marcin

December 6, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

Some decent points made by KC Brave. I have not followed the Braves farm team moves as diligently as when I lived in Atlanta and owned season tickets for 15 years but still follow the Braves along with my Tigers (ughh) and now Royals ughh+1) Wren did make smart moves stealing Jurrjens from Detroit but I’m not sure it was his “smarts” or Dombrowski’s ignorance. This is the same Detroit GM whi demanded Dontrelle Willis in the Cabrera for our 5 best young players and then gave Willis $23M. I don’t recall but assume it WAS NOT Wren who may the decision to trade our young talent for Texeira? A trade most everyone who know baseball knew would not change the fact that our pitching stunk. We knew Texeira would never sign. I’m not a fan of Vasquez per say but agree with KC Brave that we are not giving away all that it appears (hopefully not). Though my good friend in Alpharetta coached Flowers for 10 years, and disagrees with me, this guy was a nothing a few years ago until the “juice”. I would have like to see them trade him to Detroit who really needed a catcher and if he panned out at least one of my teams benefited. I sure hope, for his sake, Smoltz ends up somewhere else. Even if healthy, he will be wasted in Atlanta. Lastly, going after Burnett is silly. It will be another Hampton. Speaking of Hampton, does anyone know if the Braves made him a decent offer? If they did and he still bolted I say what a LOSER…

By Thomas

December 6, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this

This was an absolutely horrible article. We did not sign Vazquez (aquired in a trade) and Smoltz was not a product of our system (traded from Tigers). Plus, our system is VERY well stocked. According to MLB.com’s Top 50 prospects we have the third best system with the #3 Jason Heyward, #24 Tommy Hanson, and #38 Freddy Freeman and Schafer would make 4 of them if not for the HGH thing. We have two young Latin thrower in Teheran and Delgado with huge upside and two more very high ceiling southpaws a few years away in Rohrbaugh and Locke. You cite Vazquez’s W-L record as a measure of his value?

This pile of word vomit was wrong from start to finish. You should be ashamed.

By techer head

December 7, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this

Bisher, please do a little research before you write about the braves farm system agian. according to most scouts we have one of the deepest farms in the league. we have three players in the top fifty and we will have atleast 3 moore in the top 100. we are the only team that has the depth in the minors to trade for peavy. how can you write this article?

By Brandon

December 7, 2008 12:45 AM | Link to this

This article is ridiculous and tremendously inaccurate, something I would expect from a 15 yr old Met fan. Our team was magnificent during the 90s, but that dominance couldn’t last forever. We are moving onto a new ERA of Braves (McCann, Francouer, Jurrjens, Heyward, Hanson, Schafer, etc.)…most from within our system. Wren has done a terrific job so far…especially prying away Jurrjens and Hernandez from the Tigers for Renteria. We received a needed durability pitcher for level a few level A prospects and a utility player (Flowers was expendable due to McCann) He has also done a terrific job drafting…our farm system is one of the top in baseball, and with most of our “top prospects” still in lower levels, it could be the very best by the end of next season…Horrible article…

By Furman Bisher

December 7, 2008 5:07 AM | Link to this

I think my adult diaper, not the Braves farm system, is failing! Somebody please pass me my bedpan! Has anybody seen my Jitterbug phone?!

By grafe

December 7, 2008 5:13 AM | Link to this

while i didn’t like giving up flowers for him the vazquez trade shouldn’t be too bad, getting out of the al and the white sox stadium should help him in atlanta, he has some good peripherals. also ortiz was a good pickup, only gave up damian moss and i think a prospect who never amounted to anything and he gave the braves a year and a half of decent pitching, that last half being when he completely fell apart

By richbrave

December 7, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

rick marcin:

My understanding was that the BRAVES offer was BETTER than the one he took from HOUSTON. Makes me wonder how may of those “injuries” were real and how many were MEMOREX.

By richbrave

December 7, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

NICK:

You could add that JORGE CAMPILLO was “homegrown” and not utilized, so went outside the organization ultimately returning last year.

By Robert

December 7, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

Irrelevent what happens in the minors as long as the big club is managed by an idiot

Get rid of Cox. That should be the ONLY priority for now. Do the major retooling before you start the little tinkerings

Once that HUGE problem is solved (so easily) then we can focus on the myriad other problems, all of which pale in comparison to Cox’s idiocy and utter incompetence

By Robert

December 7, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

By the way, Mr Bisher knows more about baseball than the rest of the AJC writers combined - including that hack company mouthpiece OBrien

Furman Bisher was writing stuff about players like Ty Cobb (maybe you heard of him) long before most of the current players or fans were even a gleam in their daddy’s eye

By MT Braves Fan

December 7, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Furman, do you not believe Frank Wren when he talks about the “next wave of talent” about to reach the big club? Granted, they are just prospects right now, but Schafer, Freeman, Heyward, Hanson, Medlen, Locke, G. Hernandez are all currently in the Braves farm system, right? If even a few of them turn out to be productive major league players, I’d say the farm system is in pretty good shape. As far as the lower levels of the system, I’d say it’s a bit early to be pronouncing whether those guys are going to amount to anything. Given the wave of talent that’s coming, I’d say the system is fine. How many MLB players does it have to produce to be in “good shape?” Even the great Braves teams of the early and mid 90’s needed outside help. Give me a break, let’s see what the system brings us over the next couple years before we hang Frank Wren for ruining the farm system.

By richbrave

December 7, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

MT:

YES. WREN is doing a good job so far.

By Apollo

December 7, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

“By the way, Mr Bisher knows more about baseball than the rest of the AJC writers combined - including that hack company mouthpiece OBrien

Furman Bisher was writing stuff about players like Ty Cobb (maybe you heard of him) long before most of the current players or fans were even a gleam in their daddy’s eye” Robert: Ever heard of dementia?

By Erik

December 7, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this

Mr. Bisher you should try doing a little research before you write articles. Do not use misleading facts in an attempt to convince your audience you are right.

First off one of “Homegrown stars” wasn’t homegrown at all. John Smoltz was traded in 1987 to the braves after being drafted, scouted and developed by the Detroit Tigers. The following year he made his ML debut with Atlanta.

Secondly you cite Russ Ortiz, Albie Lopez, and Mike Hampton as failures and reasons we should stick with home talent. Atlanta traded for Russ Ortiz in 2002 for Damian Moss and Merkin Valdez. Moss( who was homegrown talent) pitched two seasons after he was traded and failed to have an ERA under 5 in both those seasons. Valdez has only pitched 17 innings since being traded in 2002. Meanwhile In Ortiz’s first year he went 21-7 with a 3.8 ERA and finished 4th in Cy Young Voting. The Following year he went 15-9 with with a 4.16 ERA. That is 36 wins with a sub 4 ERA over 2 years. That was an amazing trade for the Braves. Albie Lopez was a middle reliever signed to an affordable one year deal. He had a 4.3 ERA in 50 IP. Hampton was a failure because of unforeseeable injuries.

Mr. Bisher your tendency cite examples from 4 and 5 years ago in the hopes that people won’t remember whether you were right gives journalists a bad name. Next time you write an article do the appropriate research.

By Mike Phillips

December 7, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

The Braves may want to look in their backyard for some talent. Their are plenty of legitimate baseball players in Atlanta and Georgia to choose from. They may also point some of those scouts at some of these exciting African American baseball players coming in to the major leagues (ie. David Price, BJ Upton, Delmond Young etc.) How many top African American prospects do the Braves have in their system? I suspect none!

By prattvillenolzfan

December 8, 2008 7:49 AM | Link to this

I see the AJC is now taking the approach my beloved Noles, Braves and Penn State is doing…

Keeping out of touch, over-the-hill, aging men around simply because because they’ve “earned” the right to go out on their terms…….

By Bill

December 8, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this

When Furman is dining alone, there’s more baseball IQ at the table than all the combined knowledge of those who call him names here.

By MATT

December 8, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this

While there are very valid points by some of the posts above, but we are forgetting a few things: not only did the Braves get Vasquez, but we also got Boone Logan who is a young lefty reliever which is hard to come by. One other thing not to forget when it comes to Vasquez is that he had a pretty good year going last year with over 200 strikeouts and 200 innings and it only really got bad after his supposed friend and coach criticized him for not being a big game pitcher and his ERA shot to over 11.00 so that makes his ERA a little inflated plus he was pitching in a hitters park and in the American League so back in the National League East where he was very good not too long ago for the Expos and a change of scenery and a more positive environment would really do him well. About what we gave up: Tyler Flowers can hit the ball a mile and that is about it. He never really played much first base and that had very little interest in moving him there especially with Freddie Freeman already there. his defense is not that great at catcher and there is no telling what he would do against Major League pitching. Brent Lillibridge was a prospect that we got from Pittsburgh in the Laroche trade and could not hit so that really doesn’t count as giving up the farm and he in no way was ever going to be an option as the starter maybe just a utility infielder. The other prospects are kind of wait and see guys. We also can’t forget that a lot of the Braves early succes came from people we picked up in trades lest we even forget last year that we traded Renteria for Jurrjens and hernandez so building the farm back up and prospects are always hard to judge because they are so unproven. The Braves have had many busts so Just because Flowers is performing well in the minors does not mean that he will do the same for the White Socks. We must also remember that the Braves have a $100 million pay roll so losing and building the prospects isn’t exactly an options especially when, now berfore I say this I want everyone to remember that I have been Braves fan all of my life, we Braves fans are not the best at supporting our team. We needed these few bad years, we got so complacent and said well they’re just going to make it to the playoffs and then not finish. Let’s also not forget that most of the team that the Braves have are farm players and we need to stop forgetting that just this time last year we were praising Jeff Francoeur as the next franchise player to take Chipper Jones spot as the most popular Brave and then he has one bad year because we want to see him play every game and he wants to play every game it caught up with him. He is still a great player and he will continue to be and the next wave of players coming up will give us a nice core, but we need those veterans to come in and give us some stability until these next greats are ready. Remember that the Braves hit a new level when we spent the money to get Greg Maddux and then later traded for Fred Mcgriff so these are neccessary deals to again try to make it to the World Series. The Braves were just a few better breaks just two years ago from making it to the playoffs so we need not write them off so early and give Frank wren some time because I think he will be a good one. He was not the one that made the Texiera trade so we can’t put that one on him and that was not a bad trade because we all called John a genius again for making that deal and it was what we needed at that time. We want these guys to keep building the farm and then we criticize them for not making the big deal as we did almost every year that all we got at the trade deadline was guys like Terry mullholland and Jose Hernandez and Andy Ashby. We don’t say anything about some of the prospects we traded that haven’t worked out for those teams I mean for every Adam Wainwright, there are even more Bruce Chens, Horacio Ramirez’s and Wilson Betimitz so just wait before we try to make this deal a bust or success, but we always want to analyze it now so that will have to be the way it goes, but just remember some of your comments when mid season we are a player away from winning the East and Frank Wren either makes a deal or not.

By Gary

December 8, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

It’s a little early to jump all over Wren for this when Smotlz, Glavine, Moylan and Hudson all had season ending arm/shoulder surgeries. I realize our staff is getting older but the talk would be markedly different if those things hadn’t happened and so would the teams priorities.

By Blobie

December 8, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

Freeman, Heyward, Hanson, Hernandez make up a group that should be solid and possibly stars at the major league level. The minor league system is pretty good, but the Teixeira trade set us back a lot while making Texas the top farm system in baseball. That trade will haunt us for years. The other trades and moves by Wren have for the most part been good or at least tolerable. I was not glad about the Vasquez trade, but it didn’t really upset me either. We need pitching and Vasquez is better than what we finished last season with. I believe Hampton will have the numbers Vasquez will have this season, but he chose Houston. I can also see not wanting that SOB back even if he is a nice SOB. If we could get a solid year from Glavin and Smoltz much of our problems would be solved from the pitching side of the ball. Wow, how big of an “if” is that? This team needs a lot of help, but even the Champion Phillies and choker Mets have problems. We have more and less money. We need some career years, health, and another big time pitcher this time around. Help is on the way if we keep most of the farm in our farm.

By MATT

December 8, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this

Sorry for the grammatical errors in my last post, I am sending this at work, but one thing that everyone keeps bringing up against Wren is the Texiera trade, but he did not make that trade he made the one that sent him to the Angels, not the one that brought him here so he shouldn’t be held accountable for that nor should his legacy already be decided after one year. Wren is a great GM and he learned from the best just give him time and remember how long it took Schurholz to get to that status. The Braves are in good hands and will be fine.

By richbrave

December 8, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this

MIKE PHILLIPS:

Uh, JASON HEYWOOD. BRANDON JONES was a top 100 prospect although he has had mixed results in the pros. From what I have seen personally, a non-hustle play on a LF roller and his bat have clouded his future here not his skin color. Your less than subtle inferences of racial discrimination do not wash. It may be your mind that needs a cleansing.

By joe

December 8, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

When Furman is dining alone, there’s more baseball IQ at the table than all the combined knowledge of those who call him names here.

That’s also the number of people who thinks he’s actually relevent…..

JUST HIM

By don

December 8, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

It is refreshing to read all these comments from fans who, long after the fact, realize what the tragedy of the Teixeira trade. while you are at it, add the Drew trade to the mix. As I recall, I was shamelessly criticized when I opposed the trades from the time they were discussed.

The Braves have had good prospects (Just look at the projections for Andrus, Feliz, Harrison, etc and check out Wainwright and Marquis- you might want to add in Zach Miner to the equation).

Thye truth is, regardless of who is responsible, the Braves have been severely robbed in these trades.

As for B. Jones and Heyward? ther is no comparison. Heyward is a far superior prospect.

By Bill

December 8, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

By joe When Furman is dining alone, there’s more baseball IQ at the table than all the combined knowledge of those who call him names here.

That’s also the number of people who thinks he’s actually relevent…..<<

If so, that would be the exact number of people who are wrong. I’ve never understood how so many people could know so much about baseball and sports writing and yet be unemployed in those fields.

By JamieSanders

December 8, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

The amount of negetivity towards Vazquez has been a bit puzzling to me. It’s not like the Braves FO is claiming they got an ace and that we’re done.

And as far as the farm, who besides Wainright has really turned into a bad trade thus far?

By MATT

December 8, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

The Drew trade was not a bad trade. He was one of the main reasons that we made it to the playoffs because that was before Andrew went on his tear and Chipper was still battling injuries even more than now and Marquis was ridiculously inconsistant and has been since I mean he would be the Cubs wouldn’t even want to keep him as a back end rotation member and Wainwright has been good, but he has battled injuries lately and you do have to give up something to get something, but by no means was it a bad trade. the Texiera trade put butts in the seats and if it had been more successful, he may still be here so we traded a catcher that we couldn’t use and the Rangers are trying now to trade him and we gave up a shortstop in andrus and we already have plenty of talen there and at the time we had Renteria and Escobar so why not trade from something that we have an overflow of. So again we have to give up young pitching to get something that we needed and do not forget that we got Mahay and the service he gave plus the draft pick. The Braves have not been screwed or robbed or anything from these trades because if nothing else they put butts in the seats and provided the revenue for the team we get to see this year and again look at some of the deals other teams have made and just be glad that we cheer for the Braves. We have probably the most players that make it from the minors to the bigs I mean look at the other teams that are beginning to make the same decisions that the Braves have been making. As long as we are talking about prior trades let’s talk about the Sheffield trade, did anyone call that one a bust? We get Sheffield for Brian Jordan who was in decline and Odalis Perez and then we got draft picks from Sheffield so not all of our trades have been bad if any of them have been bad. Again to defend Wren, he was the one that Renteria so that deffinitely benefited the Braves and he also made the trade that brought in Will Ohman and Omar Infante. Anyone want to call that a mistake? So just give the man some time to build his influence and experience because people want to play for the Braves because they are a classy organization. the only difference between the Braves and the Red Sox is money so just remember that if the Braves go out and spend some money, they are trying to do what all of us have been calling for for years so let’s be consistent, do we want prospects or high-profile free agents. we got mad when they didn’t try to get Jason Giambi and Alex Rodriguez and bring back Sheffield and Vladimir Guerrerro so we have to just be consistent in what we want from the front office. Let’s just go ahead and define it now: WE WANT TO WIN and that is what Frank Wren wants to do as well as still with the organization as president Schurholz and Bobby Cox and everyone else so let’s just see what happens.

By stupup74

December 8, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Mr. Bisher,

Mr. Wren isn’t doing ALOT of things right, keep up the good work.

By Doris

December 8, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

I think everyone is forgetting the impact that a hitting coach like Leo Mazzone has on a pitching staff. I am sure if you asked any of the all-star pitchers we had in our hay day, they would tell you that Leo was a major factor in their success.

By Ron

December 8, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

Please,

Wren has only been on the job for about a year now and you are blaming him for all of what you think is wrong with the Braves farm system. You even make it is sound as if the Jair Jurrjens was a bad deal! I did not like the Teixiera, trade, mainly did not want them to give up Salty. But looking back, Salty has done nothing in the bigs so far. This whole article is a little strange IMO. By the way, MLB this week has 3 Braves farmhands ranked in the top 50 farmhands in all of baseball. Kind of rips apart the basis of your article.

By Evan

December 8, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

Why all the Vazquez bashing? The guy has been hit pretty hard in the AL, yeah. Is there any optimism out there that he can make a resurgence in the NL. Either way, the past 3 years indicate a need for an innings eater. Bravo Frank Wren. Don’t stop there though, go get us Jon Garland. PLEASE.

By Evan

December 8, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

Why all the Vazquez bashing? The guy has been hit pretty hard in the AL, yeah. Is there any optimism out there that he can make a resurgence in the NL. Either way, the past 3 years indicate a need for an innings eater. Bravo Frank Wren. Don’t stop there though, go get us Jon Garland. PLEASE.

By Evan

December 8, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

Why all the Vazquez bashing? The guy has been hit pretty hard in the AL, yeah. Is there any optimism out there that he can make a resurgence in the NL. Either way, the past 3 years indicate a need for an innings eater. Bravo Frank Wren. Don’t stop there though, go get us Jon Garland. PLEASE.

By 22oz

December 8, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

I don’t know why everyone is wasting time telling Furman how wrong this article is. If he can’t do research for an article, do you really think he’s reading responses on a blog?

By proeye

December 8, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

I don’t know if this has been said yet but I’m not going to review all the posts to find out:

*BISHER, YOU NEED TO RETIRE *

By GL

December 8, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

The farm system seems to be in good shape. Look at the players that are just a minor amount of time from being major leaguers. We just lack power. The only power is from Chipples and McCann. Neither of them will probably play a full season again in their career though.

We can have all of the talent in the world. However, with Cox at the helm, we third place at best.

By Scott

December 8, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

Outside of Wainwright, who is hardly an ace by any measure, what Braves pitching prospect has panned out in the last decade? Our farm system, at least for pitching prospects, is not what it used to be.

Tyler Flowers is a catching prospect and to say he can play first base is an assumption. Yes, unloading all that talent for Texiera was stupid and Kasey Kotchman is not the answer at first base for the Braves. But Vazquez is a good addition, yes he struggled down the stretch last season, but he was at odds with Ozzie, and we desperately needed the pitching. McCann has catcher locked up for the next 6 years so it was a good deal. Now let’s forget about A.J. and go get Peavy.

By Patrick

December 8, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

This trade was essential for the Braves. It acts to entice free-agent possibles like Burnett while giving up a player that the Braves already have covered with an All-Star. Flowers had only single-A ball under his belt. With Vazquez, a chance at Raul Ibanez (20+ homeruns for the outfield), and the news that Smoltz may be healthy again to be a starter, Burnett would see a strong supporting cast that would give them the chance to be division champs again without giving up Hanson who could be a 4th or 5th starter by the end of the year and the possibility of giving the Braves a chance at 3 great starters in Jurjjens, Burnett, and Hanson like the days of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz.

By George

December 8, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

Mr. Bisher,

Very accurate description of the club. Once again you have proven why you are dean of the sportswriters in Atlanta, Ga.

By Mike in Savannah

December 8, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

I’ll have to disagree with you on this one. The Braves have had talent roll through. You’ve named several, old and new, including Wainwright. He came up through Atlanta’s farm system. So has McCann, Francouer (who’s star has fallen), Kelly Johnson, Martin Prado (who could be a starter on another team), Dan Meyer (who was traded away), Joey Devine (who was traded away), Saltalamaccia (who was traded away). I agree that there has not been any recent pitching on the farm, but to generalize the Brave’s farm system as deteriorating and depleted is a stretch.

By Dixie Dawg

December 8, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

I haven’t really been impressed with Frank Wren as a GM. He was ran out of Baltimore. We really do need new owners who are going to pour money into this organization, preferably, local ownership, the kind Ted used to have, so we’ll have that “home feel” again. I’m not looking at the 09 season to be a good one. Face it, as long as Liberty Media, Frank Wren, and Bobby Cox are still in control, the Braves are going to be the laughing stock of MLB. Just like the good ole days of the 80’s.

By richbrave

December 8, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

22OZ:

Probably not. He seems to delight in throwing trash out there however.

By elliwg6

December 8, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Bisher…

At least get the facts correct when you write and article. Instead of sending it to an editor, send it to someone who actually follows the club so they can tell you where you are wrong. Also, the Senor Vazquez comment really approaches the line for racism. Just what exactly are you implying?

By elliwg6

December 8, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Bisher…

At least get the facts correct when you write and article. Instead of sending it to an editor, send it to someone who actually follows the club so they can tell you where you are wrong. Also, the Senor Vazquez comment really approaches the line for racism. Just what exactly are you implying?

By matt

December 8, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

Come on dude. Thanks for the encouraging information. Go back to sleep

By matt

December 8, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

Come on dude. Thanks for the encouraging information. Go back to sleep

By Zibby

December 8, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this

I remember when Furman Bisher used to be Furman Bisher… but then again I can remember when Krystals were 5 cents a piece, they lighted the Great Tree on the bridge at Rich’s downtown and Atlanta had NO professional sports teams… that’s all gone with the wind and perhaps Mr. Bisher should consider the merits of going fishing with Larry Munson and calling it a day…

You can blame Wren all you want, but he inherited what he inherited and that’s that…

The problem is really this - With corporate ownership such as it is with Liberty Media and Time Warner before that, “the suits” didn’t get it, won’t get it and it ain’t going happen again in terms of playoff caliber teams until you have a single owner with loads of money to play with and an ego to match…

You can trace the downfall scale from the time Turner was booted off the Board of TW and that’s that…

If the team is to play on the scale of the Twins or the A’s then you have to reconfigure everything any way and it doesn’t matter who the current GM is…

The Rays did it right… but for how long? Greed is a funny thing and sooner or later everyone will be greedy there and the train will jump the tracks and well, here we go again…

And for the record, I was there for the very first game in 1966 at Fulton County Stadium…they lost that night…

Been with this team when it made no sense whatsoever to be a fan…

Give Wren a break… he’s not the problem.

By LivininAL

December 8, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this

At the rate Smoltz is progressing …we might be stronger than people think!

By Diamonddog

December 8, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this

With all these comments about a catcher, the Braves have a great catcher behind McCann in Clint Sammons.

By richbrave

December 8, 2008 11:00 PM | Link to this

DIAMONDDOG:

Not right now. Maybe in a few. The coaching staff here in RICHMOND protected SAMMONS in the line-up by batting him in the 6 and 7 holes most of the year. His offense and defense came a little unglued in the latter portions of the season. I don’t know if going to ATLANTA had anything to do with that or not. But I’d hold off a bit on the “great” adjectives to describe SAMMONS’ play at this point.

By richbrave

December 8, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this

ZIBBY:

Right on about TURNER and his tenure here in ATLANTA. Took him a while to figure things out, but once he got things rollin’ they were exemplery. BTW, I saw a blur about two months ago regarding a reprise by TED on the ownership thing. Seems LIBERTY wants out after the 2011 season. But that little dust-up seems to have gone away. So who knows.

By rbb0420

December 9, 2008 1:51 AM | Link to this

The guy that wrote this article is an old fool . All of his complaints [with the exception of tex] were done by wrens predicessor . Perhaps someone should pay a little more attention to what comes out of their mouth .

By scottbravesfan

December 9, 2008 2:29 AM | Link to this

The Braves minor leagues are stacked with prospects.And they just had a huge run in 2005 with the Baby Braves. It’s not the Braves fault that most of them became busts, besides McCann and Kelly Johnson. We just had breakout seasons from Escobar and Jurrjens. And guys like Tommy Hanson and Jason Heyward are waiting in the wings. Do you honestly expect every player that the Braves draft to be superstars? The Braves got lucky in the 1990’s with their draft picks. It doesn’t happen very often that a team fields almost exclusively from their minor league talent and everyone of them be good. If so the Pittsburgh Pirates would be contenders every year and it wouldn’t have taken the Rays 10 years of awful baseball to finally get to the World Series.

By richbrave

December 9, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

rbb0420:

My understanding is that JS pulled the trigger on the TEX deal. FRANK WREN was on the leaving end of the deal.

scottbraves fan:

JJ came over from DETROIT. Probably not a good idea to intermingle him in the post with others who are “homegrown produce.”

There’s “CHIP” JONES of course. And don’t forget CHARLIE MORTON. I really think he’ll become a solid #3 in the rotation after ‘09. Still that’s just 5 or 6 guys from the farm not 13 to 15 which is probably what BISHER had in mind.

Also remember, this is the first time in a long while that we’ve pick inside the top ten in the draft. That makes a big difference in the talent coming up.

By richbrave

December 9, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this

JUIRJENS, VASQUEZ, CAMPILLO, MORTON, REYES. Our in house starting five. YIKES.! Where’s that BURNETT offer sheet.?

By john

December 9, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

Reading alot of these articles the last 2 years and seeing how alot of the these fans act is depressing..

David Justice was right.. most of Atlanta fans are fair weather… but I bet all of you boo birds applauded when he hit his solo shot…

I’m a braves fan who looks at the positive aspects of the last seasons. 2005-2007 Atlanta had a combined record of 163-161.. better than the Cubs and many other “contenders now”… last season if we wouldve won HALF of the 1 run road games.. we wouldve been in first place. RELAX!!!!! we don’t need lights out pitching and monster home run hitters! We need pitching anchors who take strain off the bullpen and give Atlanta a fighting chance rather than have us down 3 runs in the 2nd inning. We also need a slight upgrade in production from the outfield. Injuries and slumps were just ridiculous last season and most braves fans are ready to pull the plug.

Shut your mouths spoiled babies!!!

By brandon

December 9, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Do you know we recently had 3 guys in the top 50 Minor League Prospects??? I guess that is a fail…

By SL3

December 9, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

I hope Flowers doesn’t turn into another Ryan Howard. 1st base should be a power hitter and Kotchman didn’t impress me. The Braves don’t have the money to compete with free agent signings so we have to use the Marlins MO. We are offering Burnett a 4 year contract and maybe 5 years with his injury history? I see another Hampton fiasco. We need young guns that you develop like the Hanson kid. Paying insane contracts for players past their prime is not the way to go. I am tired of paying $7 for a beer and $5 for a hotdog on top of the $45 ticket for a decent seat so a pitcher can earn $250,000 per game.

By SL3

December 9, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this

Math mistake. Burnett at 15 million a yr would be more like $500,000 per start and that is if the guy stays healthy. Big IF. And people are complaining about CEO pay. Guy pitches 6 or 7 innings for 2 hours and makes that kind of money. With the economy in the tank I think the fans need a cut in ticket prices and that means the players shouldn’t be offered these enormous contracts anymore.

By Jamie

December 10, 2008 2:52 AM | Link to this

Vasquez has very solid career numbers…over 2,000 K’s…is in his early 30’s…has gone to the mound for 200 plus every year…and has been pitching in maybe the best hitters park in the AL…you better look at Carlos Silva, and then you will relize that JV is not such a bad deal for the money…and Tyler Flowers has done what again??? Give me a break!

By Ryan

December 10, 2008 8:30 AM | Link to this

There is nothing wrong with the farm system. Of the names you listed only Chipper, Glavine and Smoltz are/were prizes. Smoltz however was not a product of our farm system. We acquired him in a trade. The rest were average players who had a few good years. Kelly Johnson, Escobar and McCann compare to Blauser Lemke and Lopez. Our pitching fell apart last year with some old arms failing which is to be expected but not all at once. No one thought that Hudson, Moylan, Soriano and Gonzalez would be hurt this badly. Reyes and Morton have all the talent scouts look for but are unable to throw consistently for some reason. As for Flowers, we have a great farm raised catcher. No he cannot play first-remember Klesko screwed that up for everyone.

By Dr. Vajajay

December 10, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this

Is there anything more superficially mundane and munch-time mealy-mouthed than a football-season-timed baseball report like this one? So what? Write about these clowns in May when they’ve had a few starts and we can all get interested in the race for the pennant. Duh, I think warm beer and cold hotdogs are good and pitching beats hitting and bobbycox makes bonehead decisions out there all day long…

We should have three world series rings. We won the minnesota series, except Cox forgot to drill his players about running the bases. We also had the yankees till Cox let that fastball genius throw an offspeed pitch. WHY? Just fire it in there and go home champs. But no. Cox is too busy breaking his wife’s heart to care about his fan’s hearts.

I can point to the blade of grass, the crystal of ice, the drop of sweat, the cheatin’ referee that led to all of the Atlanta franchises being losers losers losers. (did I mention that all atlanta sports franchises are losers?)

I watch sports. I observe coaches. I read sports journalists. That’s why I’m uniquely qualified to comment here. I am the loose ball foul of blog. I am the hat-trick of rimshots. I am the stitching in the seams.

I dont just eat, breath and drink sports. I am the Snap Crackle Pop of Crunch Time, I am the hell in the Hail Mary, the punt in the bunt, and yes, that’s right, I am the Doctor VaJajay of sportswriting! (cheerleader reference).

First Bisher writes about Falcons, then he writes about Hawks, then thrashers, then braves, HEY pick a .500 team and stick with them!

By Abner

December 10, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

I wish Bisher would write a column on the very first baseball game ever played, seeing as he was there.

By richbrave

December 10, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

There are no “I’s” in DR. VAJAJAY so why does your post have a dozen. Lots of folks do what you do DR. Its not unique. But most people are not as insufferably smug about it as you are. How’s that ego hangin’.

By Dr. Vajajay

December 11, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Glad you liked the material, Sparky. Feel free to steal. Then folks’ll think that YOU’RE the genius instead of the triangulating ball-sac guidance system your chin truly is.

bwa haw

By richbrave

December 11, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

Sticks and stones, fool. Sticks and stones…Yawn.

By Dr. Vajajay

December 12, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

zzzzz

By Skydawg

December 12, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

It’s funny, that DOB who is the beat writer for the Braves reports exactly the opposite. That the Braves farm system is once again stockpiling talent. Perhaps that is why some of the talent that has been traded away lately was lets says..expendable. The farm system is fine and still one of the best in baseball. Unfortunately the farm system game takes a little more time than the Yankees of the world that spend at free will. The Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Phillies and Dodgers are destroying baseball by their rampant unchecked spending.

By Mark B

December 13, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this

I disagree for the fact that the Braves stunk before John came to town. Back than they were getting top draft picks every year because they’re record was bad. Look at Tampa Bay now. The Braves were so good in the 90’s and early 2000’s that they always drafted near the bottom. The Braves do have some talent in the minor leagues but like Big John proved back in the early 90’s, you have to have some veteran presence to help teach the prospects when they do come up. Peavy would be a great addition, especially because of his contract, but don’t sell the farm to get him. What about Bedard, He maybe available.