Home > The Barr Code > Archives > 2008 > February > 06 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USReal ID Act a real intrusion on rights, privacy
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
With the announcement last month by Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff of the final implementing regulations for the much-delayed Real ID Act, the debate over this thinly veiled national identification card project moved into high gear.
The federal government for several years now has been fighting a guerrilla action with citizen groups and a number of state legislatures over imposing on the states and the citizenry this privacy-intrusive and costly mandate. With the announcement Jan. 11 of the final regulations, the debate is fully joined and pits those who support the principle of states’ rights against the legions of Big Government advocates.
Big Government advocates are personified by the current Bush administration, favoring central control of virtually every facet of activity in our society, from education to transportation and from the plumbing in our bathrooms to the bulbs in our lamps. While the Real ID debate shares some elements with its sister debate concerning voter ID, mixing the two as if two sides of the same coin dilutes the host of fundamental constitutional concerns and responsibilities affected by the Real ID Act program now being forced down the throats of the states.
Let’s leave aside for the moment the underlying federalism question — where does the federal government get the power to dictate to the states who can get a driver’s license? — to focus on civil liberties that would be undercut by the Real ID Act.
If, as proposed in the law, a person must have a Real ID Act-compliant card in order to access a federal building, access any regulated or interstate mode of transportation, or obtain any federal benefit, then we have surrendered to the federal government (that is, federal bureaucrats) the power to deny citizens all manner of activities guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. Consider:
A person not possessing a Real ID Act-compliant identification card could not enter any federal building, or an office of his or her congressman or senator or the U.S. Capitol. This effectively denies that person their fundamental rights to assembly and to petition the government as guaranteed in the First Amendment.
A person seeking to exercise their right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment could henceforth be denied that ability if they do not possess a precious Real ID card, because the federal bureaucracy known as the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives probably will decree that such a form of identification is necessary to meet federal requirements for purchasing a firearm.
Very possibly the Real ID card will be required in order to vote in any election for federal office.
A veteran may be denied access to a VA hospital because he or she lacks the requisite Real ID card, perhaps because they did not have the money required to purchase it or because they could not locate the background forms the Department of Homeland Security required to obtain one.
A business traveler, unable to afford to travel by private jet, is denied the ability to make a living because their job requires air travel and they do not have a Real ID card — even though they demonstrably pose no danger whatsoever to their fellow travelers.
Even though individual states, such as Georgia, may provide greater legal protection for private information of its residents than other states or the federal government, this will mean nothing in the Real ID Act world, because all the data under that law will be subject to the lower federal standards, thereby subjecting residents to a higher likelihood of identity theft than they would risk under the laws of their state.
And, they would have no recourse to correct erroneous data, or prevent identity theft pursuant to the Real ID regulations.
On the other side of the ledger, arguing in favor of this intrusive and expensive federal mandate, are hollow promises of “security” — not freedom or liberty — but “safety,” the promise of which trumps all else in this post-9/11 world, at least for this Congress and this administration. I, for one, commend the state of Georgia and those other states that are standing against this assault on states’ rights and the Bill of Rights.
Commenting is closed but will reopen Thursday morning.
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By Jeff
February 6, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this
Is this the third or fourth ajc.com blog I am kicking off???
Anyways….
Mr. Barr: While I can’t say I’ve ALWAYS supported you (one memorable time back in HS when you were supposed to show up for some event at my school, I was completely disgusted, but was duty bound to show up - I was in the band), over the years our politics have grown closer together. To the point that I am glad we finally have a TRUE conservative here on the ajc.com blogs.
On today’s topic: Wasn’t one of the reasons for going from the Articles of Confederation to the Constitution freedom of movement between the states? Why then does the federal government now decide that it can limit such movement??
As far as travel goes: My wife and I go on cruises a lot (well, she goes a lot, I started when I married her fourth months ago). Because of this RealID act, we must get a passport or not be allowed to go on a vacation. This unwarranted federal intervention is thus making my life more complicated, all in the nebulous goal of ‘safety’.
Perhaps another of our Founding Fathers truly was wise:
‘Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither’ - Ben Franklin
By bubbatech02
February 6, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
If we would control our stupid boarders, we wouldnt need this crap. Anyone that is for open boarders and amnesty should not complain about the national id system. because the crazy lefties want to let everyone into our country legally without documentation, the feds are forced to move the first line of protection for us back from the boarder to our buildings and transportation systems.
Strong immigration laws, and enforcement of those laws, would prevent this.
By Brooke
February 6, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this
I can honestly say that this really, really scares me. I’m concerned that the Goverment is trying to rule us rather than work with us.
By 2008
February 6, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this
I don’t see what the big fuss is about. WE have SS #’s, DL’s with pictures and we have to have passports to travel abroad…why is this such a big deal. I also agree with bubbatech, if we did a better job of controlling our borders and actually enforced Visa’s this might not be necessary….
By LeftyAndy
February 6, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
It’s not necessarily the “lefies” who got us into this mess. The “rightie” congress and administration are who got us where we are now, with the RealID act and with the porous borders.
How many billion$ less would it have been to secure our ports and strengthen our borders than it has been to get into an endless war? ALL started by republicans… You’re right bubba, Strong immigration laws, and enforcement of those laws, would prevent this, but the admin doesn’t want that. They want chaos.
By bubbatech
February 6, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this
TO LEFTY ANDY:
While I do not agree with your statement that the republicans want chaos and that they got us into this mess (just look at the result of Clinton’s lax foreign policy, i.e. 9/11 and the failure to kill bin Laden), I do apologize for my crazy lefties remark. I do not agree with your statement about the war (that is for another blog and could go on for days). I do agree that the republicans have been pitiful in securing our boarders. I was quite disappointed when Bush supported the amnesty bill. We now have a frontrunner that supports amnesty, and that scares the crap out of me.
Overall, both parties have been pathetic. I dont like big government…strike that, I hate and distrust big government (my libertarian side coming out).
By 2008
February 6, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
LeftAndy - This was not ALL started by Republicans, both administrations have had a hand in this mess. The Dems don’t want to mess with that Hispanic vote. Both parties pander to such political correctness, that’s why we’re in this mess.
By jct
February 6, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this
I always chuckle when I here folks ‘discuss’ stronger immigration laws. We already have laws and those are not being enforced. Why create new laws? Either enforce the laws we already have on the books or make a guest program.
Most people want the laws but don’t discuss the financial cost of enforcing closing the border. It will affect all of us who travel outside the US.
This Real ID is scary. Left or Right does not matter. It’s an affront to the Constitution.
By Elaine
February 6, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this
Mr. Barr,
Great article. You were once my Congressional representative - however, I never voted for you because you were way too “right” for me; it seemed you cared more about getting Bill Clinton out of office than addressing the needs of our district. Glad to see you’ve come to the middle on many things and are now what I call a true conservative.
Keep up the good work!
By Jeff
February 6, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
Elaine:
You and I once lived relatively close to each other, and felt the same.
We disagree SLIGHTLY now - I don’t think Mr. Barr has come to the middle, I think that the Republican Party has moved VASTLY to the left while claiming to be on the right.
By Tater
February 6, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this
Be curious to see how the Federal Government, which has shown to be inept in everything except the military, plans on implementing this. Their unique style of failing in every program is known throughout the world, something that I am distressed about, but not surprised.
Does this mean the deceased house pets who get social security benefits will need a RealID card?
Just kidding…or am I…
By Mia
February 6, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
Might as well go ahead and implant the “id chip” and be done with it
By Amy
February 6, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
States were never meant to do everything the federal government tells them to for fear of losing federal money, including issues like driver’s licenses requirements. Government should be local. Since when did the federal government start passing unfunded mandates for driver’s licenses, education, health care, and general “health and welfare” issues without the worries states have for balancing budgets?
By JLT
February 6, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
To bubbatech02 It was GW Bush who, when asked about Bin Laden, said and I quote “I don’t think about him much, I really don’t”. GW has had almost 8 years to go after this guy and has done nothing. I get sick of every comment from the right starting with “but Clinton”. Clinton has been out of office for 8 years. What has improved? Until the right abandons this obsessive hatred of the Clintons, who by the way, were very moderate, we will never work together to solve the real problems confronting our nation, including border security.
By Ron
February 6, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
Once REAL ID becomes firmly entrenched,it will be impossible to move in this country without one.It will become your inside the borders passport.Without it you will not be able to complete any transaction involving money at any legitimate location.Hotels,motels,banks,supermarkets,shopping malls,and anyone else collecting any form of payment will require you to produce your REAL ID.The government has a real interest in knowing where you are and what you are buying.Ten years after it’s inception we will be at this level.
By Curious
February 6, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Can’t you see that this partisan finger pointing is what has gotten into this pickle in the 1st place?
Tell me what is solved by saying the Repubs or the Dems are responsible? NOTHING.
The government is supposed to be for the people, by the people. All of this finger pointing is pointless and is exactly why nothing ever gets done.
If you are a proud american citizen that wants to bring about change - stop bellyaching and pick up the phone / click ‘New’ in your email reader and contact your representatives. DO SOMETHING.
I don’t give a damn who sent us to Iraq, why the economy blows, who is responsible for the illegals - it just needs to be fixed. Not for the glory or honor of being the one who fixed it but rather because it needs to be done.
I have a hard time being labeled anything - I do not subscribe to the belief that everything either political party does is always right. I am disheartened by all of the foolishness that is prevalent in Washington, in the media and across the country.
Good day folks!
By jay
February 6, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
The Real ID Act should have received more media play years ago when Bush was trying to sneak it into the bill that help fund the war. In other words, if you don’t vote for the Real ID Act you are voting against giving the troops in Iraq the money they need to operate.
Here is the problem with the Real ID Act. Consider once all the states are compliant and the databases are in place Homeland Security will have access to all US Citizens peronal information (Home Address, SSN, Medical, Income, Credit History etc) without the appropriate oversight. I think this is dangerous because the more information collected on an individual the more power you have over that person. For example, currently the police department has access to just enough information needed to execute a speeding ticket. However, if you place all of the personal information in one place any government entity can look up or have access to personal info that they were not privy to in the past. The Police will be able to see your credit report, access your bank and credit card accounts etc. And who is going to oversee and make sure the officials in the Homeland Security Dept are not abusing this info or selling it etc? What happens if the databases are hacked?
I truly believe the Real ID Act is the end to true freedom in America.
By john
February 6, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
I see no creadence to Bob Barr’s view.
By john
February 6, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
I see no creadence to Bob Barr’s view.
By NoID
February 6, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this
Let’s not forget that if this passes, the REAL ID will become the most forged document in American history, and the database holding the information will become the biggest target for hackers and other criminals. What security is this buying us?
Bottom line is that this will create more problems than it solves, and violates most of the Constitution to boot.
By Nan
February 6, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
I never thought I’d find myself agreeing with Bob Barr, but on this issue I do. It’s not going to do a darn thing to help with the so-called illegal immigration problem (wnat to stop illegal immigrants? Punish employers who hire them so the jobs will dry up, then they’ll stop coming), it’s already creating major headaches for all government agencies and the states, and it won’t keep us safer. I can remember when true conservatives (which was most of the Republican Party) railed against the notion of a national ID or any encroachment on states’ rights — where did those people go? Now the worst excesses of government on record are coming from the Bush administration in Washington.
By j.d.
February 6, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this
Our political leaders have forgotten that their oath is to protect and defend the Constitution and to faithfully execute the laws. They are not obligated to create a problem and then create a solution based on safety and security. In fact, I would suggest that the Constitution prohibits such action. Is anyone willing to talk impeachment?
By Ron
February 6, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this
Go aHead j.d. This is The Peach State,impeach away.
By Political Mongrel
February 6, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
Let’s not forget that papers were required to travel anywhere in the old Soviet Union. Without them you would be arrested, jailed, investigated, and sometimes left to rot for years.
It’s terribly dangerous that we are headed toward an state of central control of everyones personal information. Since the ID is just a tech update of the old concept, it gives “paper or plastic” a whole new meaning.
Now how long will it be until we see checkpoints at state lines where you have to show your ID? I resent like hell the idea that this is being done in the name of “protecting our borders”, “defense against terrorism”, and “freedom”. It smacks too much of “we had to destroy the village to save it.”
By ASA
February 6, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
Brave New World…you’ve got to wonder why in the world there is a need for a National ID card now? It might have made some sense during WWII - but, now? Just because of 9/11? I just don’t buy it.
By Charles
February 6, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
Pre-K, Kindergarten, grade school, middle school, high school, colleges and universities are organized to indoctrinate Americans into the New World Order. That’s why “education” has been assigned a god-like status in our country. It’s a creative way to have Americans enter into reeducation camps voluntarily and receive rewards to boot. The purpose of an enemy controlled education system is not to prepare us for a refined life or future, but primarily to brainwash us into stupidity ultimately leading to servitude.
The average American believes in big government, globalism, and world government. That’s too sophomoric. Have we lost the mental acuity to discern the positions which we have been “educated” to foster are calculated to deprive us of our God given freedom; and render the Constitution of the United States null and void? The Constitution of the United States is a nationalistic document, not global.
There is confusion, chaos, mayhem, and stupidity among our citizenry. I have very little compassion for suffering adults. Many are getting what they deserve no matter how dire their circumstances. There have been many credible people who understood the deception taking place in our society. They set up programs and invited us to take full advantage of them. Because of their altruistic concerns, some paid and are paying a tremendous price for their efforts i.e. prison, death, etc… But my heart aches for the children who will face the end game of a deceitful, painful, deliberately created hostile reality imposed upon us by the enemies of America; both foreign and domestic.
By OneForTheRoad
February 6, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
Something that seems to be missing from this discussion is the basis given by those pushing for this added protection. What comes to mind is the mentality that was displayed, for example, by the executives at my former place of employment. Their “concern” for safety took on a whole new light after this guy went to work at his trading company and started taking out individuals. All of a sudden, there were security guards and new company passes and even bullet-proof glass going in around the bosses office. I kid you not. These executives that I refer to are of the same ilk that are in these government offices that need protection. Of course, we also have to remember the powder scare and the need to protect important people against such things. Perhaps their studies have shown that a national ID card is the most cost-effective means to peace of mind.
By Whatsthebigdeal
February 6, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this
What’s the problem? I don’t have a problem showing my ID. You show your id to get on a plane or buy alcohol. Who cares about the other stuff.
By Barbara
February 6, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this
In case you aren’t aware, the FBI has all the information on you since the day you were born. It’s in a database, and believe me, if you’re not breaking the law, they don’t spend their time randomly looking for people to pick on. You just aren’t that important. I have no problem with another ID. As “Whatsthebigdeal” stated, you have to show your ID for particular purchases or transactions anyway.
I’d rather be protected by our government having the means to catch those that would do us harm. It’s not a matter of losing civil liberties, it’s a matter of a little more inconvenience than we’re used to in this country. 911 changed a lot of things, so just get used to it. You want to crack down on illegal immigration, this is another avenue (along with enforcing current laws) in which to do that.
Bottom line is; if you aren’t a criminal, you don’t have anything to worry about.
By Mike Szedon
February 6, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
“…if you aren’t a criminal, you don’t have anything to worry about…” concerning the RealID card. That’s just what the Nazis said about “papers” and what the Russians said about internal passports. Just because I’m not a criminal, doesn’t mean that I should have to prove that every time I want to cash a check, rent a room, buy beer, cross state lines, enter a gov’t building, drive a car, etc. The Real ID is nothing but Big Brother’s attempt to track and record the actions of citizens, period. Illegal immigrants, real criminals, fugitives, and the like won’t have one and won’t be on the radar anyway. It’s honest people who will be treated like criminals under this plan, honest people whose data will be hacked, honest people who will be at the mercy of an inept, over-expensive, clueless federal agency. Only the people honest enough to get the Real ID card will be treated like second-class citizens , in exchange for surrendering yet more constitutional freedoms in the name of “security.”
Anyone who approves of this DESERVES to be treated like a criminal.
By JCH
February 6, 2008 7:24 PM | Link to this
Barbara’s comments are spot on. The FBI and CIA probably know what kind of diapers your mom used on your paranoid butt.
“Mike” has a file on him a mile thick - and none of it good. Criminal, financial, etal… Watch out what you have on your computer Mikey! And FYI, your mom obviously put your disposable diapers over your face. Lack of oxygen to the brain is evident by your comments.
Scared of RealID - criminals should be…
By Emily
February 6, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this
Mike: You are so RIGHT! Thanks for spelling it out for the clueless on this blog…
By Eric
February 6, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this
Thank you for addressing this issue, Mr. Barr! I hope citizens everywhere will stand up for their rights and not give away the very freedoms we are trying to preserve. It is telling that Real ID is ignored by the presidential candidates - testament that we should beware centralized government.
By zeke
February 6, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this
What has become of Bob Barr? He once was an avid conservative, but, now has turned into a liberal leaning nut!
By P
February 6, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this
It doesn’t matter if you think this Real ID will give you some (misguided and misplaced) sense of security: IT’S UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND UNAMERICAN!
By matt
February 7, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this
here is the real answer to your column how honestly gives a damn. why does it scare people that you have to get a federal id. many people have lost there lives over countries that are just ignorate in understaning our views and beleives. my beleive is the government is not going to watch where or what you do… what are you afraid of. they may find you in an area you shouldn’t be in like cruising in a park or picking up a prostitue. myself, i am for the all state id. i have nothing to hide, i am not breaking any laws. i know that no one is watching or is going to watch my movements or actions because i obey the laws of the land. guys and chicks grow up and realize we are in a world that is only getting more violent and we need to a more secure country in the USA. think about it. and for the morons that mention voting and showing and id. it is a law that we all are to carry a photo id with us at all times. so do not give me that crap that it is a violation of civil rights to ask for a id when voting… we have to get over the little things that we cry about and focus on real life issues. what about the unemployement rate, jobs being moved overseas, young kids on the street do to being thrown out by familes. lets worry about getting families back to where they need to be instead of worring about someone afriad of being placed somewhere where they should not be, by having an id that might track you ,,, give me a @#$%^*( break
By matt
February 7, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this
here is the real answer to your column how honestly gives a damn. why does it scare people that you have to get a federal id. many people have lost there lives over countries that are just ignorate in understaning our views and beleives. my beleive is the government is not going to watch where or what you do… what are you afraid of. they may find you in an area you shouldn’t be in like cruising in a park or picking up a prostitue. myself, i am for the all state id. i have nothing to hide, i am not breaking any laws. i know that no one is watching or is going to watch my movements or actions because i obey the laws of the land. guys and chicks grow up and realize we are in a world that is only getting more violent and we need to a more secure country in the USA. think about it. and for the morons that mention voting and showing and id. it is a law that we all are to carry a photo id with us at all times. so do not give me that crap that it is a violation of civil rights to ask for a id when voting… we have to get over the little things that we cry about and focus on real life issues. what about the unemployement rate, jobs being moved overseas, young kids on the street do to being thrown out by familes. lets worry about getting families back to where they need to be instead of worring about someone afriad of being placed somewhere where they should not be, by having an id that might track you ,,, give me a @#$%^*( break
By matt
February 7, 2008 12:28 AM | Link to this
add on
if you use your visa or mastercard or fly on the plane or take a vacation anywhere out of usa the federal government know where you are and what you are buying and do they care NO come on peoplpe think about it.
By f(x) = 36x^2
February 7, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this
Honestly, I would love to see what all of you rabid anti-immigrant folks would do when the kind of laws you want enacted create a massive collapse of the US economy, and when you can’t eat the foods you depend on.
Like it or not, the “illegals” (you understand that immigration laws are civil, not criminal, right?) you hate are the ones who harvest a substantial portion of the agricultural crops in this country. They also are responsible for much of the basic menial labor in this country.
Let’s be real - you don’t hate them because they “broke the law”. YOu hate them because they aren’t White. Most of you are racist idiots who didn’t even graduate from high school. Not only are you utterly incapable of understanding BASIC economics, you would simply stare blankly if someone tried to explain it to you.
Yeah, there’s a reason that the US ranks at the bottom of education when compared to other Western nations.
By AmericanConstitutionalist
February 7, 2008 3:32 AM | Link to this
The Real ID is pre-cursor to eventual mandatory microchip implantation. For any doubters, they’re currently doing involuntary chipping of prisoners in the UK, and the slope to include everyone is all so slippery. As Americans, we need to quit buying into the phony, smokescreen of the Left/Right paradigm, and realize that both GOP and DNC “leadership” are controlled by the same masters. Whether it be open borders, NAFTA, the coming North American Union or the REAL ID, we’ve been sold out by the Globalist puppets in DC!
http://infowars.com/cashless_society.htm#rfid
By Dr. Kaplan
February 7, 2008 3:33 AM | Link to this
you must SEE.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVEPlxwlzCE&feature=related
By Dr. Kaplan
February 7, 2008 3:33 AM | Link to this
you must SEE.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVEPlxwlzCE&feature=related
By AmericanConstitutionalist
February 7, 2008 4:11 AM | Link to this
Dr.Kaplan, thank you for the outstanding video interview link! The late Aaron Russo was a great patriot and his last documentary/film “America Freedom to Fascism” was a masterpiece. Most Americans have no idea about the Globalist Elite and their long-time control of the political systems, Corporate world & “Sheepletainment” industry. I’m afraid we’re quickly witnessing the rise of Orwell’s “Oceania” here in our Constitutional Republic. :(
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=America+Freedom+to+Fascism&total=759&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
By Jeff
February 7, 2008 6:10 AM | Link to this
Matt:
Secure from what? Outside threats?
A better idea than REALID would be to pull the American military OUT of forward operating bases and restationed along the entire border of the US. Let the Army/Air Force handle all land based threats and the Navy/Coast Guard handle all water based threats. (Air threats would be handled by whatever forces are guarding the direction of incursion.) Have the USMC stationed within quick striking distance of all borders to repel any invasion forces that get past the Army/Navy/Air Force.
THEN our borders would be secure AND we would be ‘safe’ from all outside threats.
But such LOGICAL thinking of a policy of secure borders and a foreign policy of non-interventionism isn’t within the mental grasp of the wackos in Washington or the sheeples of the American public.
By Bill
February 7, 2008 6:20 AM | Link to this
I can’t decide whether I am beginning to agree with Bob Barr’s views or if Bob Barr is beginning to agree with mine. Ten years ago, I would have said impossible, never, no way. As for many of the comments here, I consider them to be stupid and ignorant.
By ROSEMARY
February 7, 2008 6:28 AM | Link to this
This reminds me of WWII Europe with the question, “Where are your papers?”. This plan only benefits “Big Brother”. We have drivers licenses’,state ID cards and passports—-make them more secure and there’s no need for yet ANOTHER ID.
By Bitter EX democrackkk
February 7, 2008 7:18 AM | Link to this
EVERYONE in America should watch the great film on DVD ‘Freedom to Fascism’ by the late great Aaron Russo! www.Freedomtofascism.com
order several for gifts.
also: www.Hillarythemovie.com
order several for gifts
also: www.ERRvideo.com
three EXCELLENT movies that need WIDESPREAD exposure to the clueless masses!!!
By Copyleft
February 7, 2008 8:09 AM | Link to this
Matt exemplifies the greatest threat to our freedoms… lazy thinking.
The notion that “Only criminals care about their rights, I’ve got nothing to hide from the government” is far more dangerous to our society than any number of terrorists, illegal immigrants, or anthrax mailers.
By Susan Cater
February 7, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
After reading your article about the negatives of having a national ID I just had to comment. If our American government enforced the laws we have on the books maybe you would be right. But since we have no idea how many people are in our country or if any one of these unknown free loaders, is paying taxes this April, I have to disagree with you on the national ID issue. We let more people come into this country because we have a “shortage of labor”. Are we short on people? Who knows. I have to use my drivers license number, or social security number for every thing you listed as a negative for the national ID. Are these numbers secure, safe, not easy to falsify? No. But my life is now depended on them forever-from my first day of employment to my last day of collecting social security. Is this big business trying to get cheap labor-more green cards, because of our lack of knowledge of how many people are in the labor force. My security is at risk and our financial tax base is at risk if we don’t know how many Americans we have. Since it’s an election year, who knows how many non-documented illegal got to vote since our ID system is a failure.
By Copyleft
February 7, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
And since you want security (apparently, mostly financial security), you’re willing to discard your freedoms and your privacy.
Fortunately, a lot of Americans made a different choice—in 1776, and again today.
By JG
February 7, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
This won’t bolster financial/identity security either. It will have an RFID transmitter imbedded in the card, just like new US passports, which allows anybody with a scanner (which can be purchased privately) to read your personal information off that card. So now crooks only have to walk within 10-15 feet of you instead of having to pick-pocket you. This applies to all RFID technology, all new credit cards and debit cards included.
By Rossi
February 7, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this
To the commenter who said open borders are becasue of the lefties, I beg to differ. Take a look at the link below. Besides open borders aren’t the problem - ever since NAFTA caused people to lose their jobs in Mexico the influx has been increasing. These people are trying to survive. What would you do if you had no options?
http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/030507rodrigueznaupavingsovereignty.html
By Rossi
February 7, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this
Yes, I realize Clinton signed NAFTA but Bush is happily in compliance as well.
By nafta
February 13, 2008 4:52 AM | Link to this
The Real ID will merge with the Social Security card, and become a way to authorize people to work. The Real ID act has some language to make building the border wall easier. So, this argument about a stronger wall eliminating the Real ID is contradicted by reality. Real ID goes hand-in-hand with the border wall.
By James Anderson Merritt
February 13, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Let’s consider that you only need ID and membership cards if you need to prove entitlement to a benefit. If you don’t demand anything from anyone, you don’t need a card (or other way to demonstrate entitlement status).
Now, just stop to consider the broad array of things that the government is either providing or regulating. At one time, not very long ago, people used to provide most or all of those things for themselves, and without benefit of regulation, “protective” or otherwise. Today, however, we must ask for and receive permission from an authority. With the Real ID card, it will be easier than ever for authority to deny permission.
This is the exact opposite of freedom. But how to avoid it, when we pass silly laws that make it a crime, simply to be occupying space on the wrong side of a border, or to give someone a job unless they can prove “right” (actually, entitlement) to work in this country? Once such laws exist, forces will inexorably converge on a mechanism that most efficiently facilitates enforcement of the law — FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE ENFORCERS. In this case, that is a national ID, internal passport, or whatever you want to call it.
Consider the concept of “open borders.” Just assume we had them for a moment. Just assume that anyone who crossed the border would be welcome for business, tourism, or even for an indefinite stay. What would be so bad about that? That they would stuff ballot boxes at election time? Swell the welfare rolls or school enrollment? Fill our emergency rooms to bursting and bankruptcy? Take our jobs?
I’m not being facetious or rhetorical here. I think we must avoid sabre-rattling and jingoism, and look objectively and honestly at what the real problems of “open borders” would be, then work to eliminate those problems. Because “open borders” is equivalent to “no reason for an ID card.” That is to say, if it is not a crime for peaceful people to come here for travel, work, or even indefinitely-long residence, then they AND WE don’t need “papers” to prove our right to be and work (make a living) here. If this idea horrifies you, then you are going to have to swallow the bitter pill: to keep others out by force, you will need to submit to measures such as RealID. Are we really so afraid of “the others” — do they really pose such a threat, as to justify you giving up even that much of your freedom, not to mention authorizing your government to take that freedom from ME, your citizen neighbor?
It may be necessary to be a citizen and prove one’s citizenship, in order to participate in our public policymaking institutions — voting, elected office, etc. But whenever you are required to “prove who you are” in order just to get along in life, that’s a palpable reduction in liberty — especially if you can only obtain the required “proof” by satisfying and humoring a central authority.
There are more intelligent and effective ways to deal with the things that people fear when they hear “open borders,” than simply to lock down the borders. I don’t think we should tolerate criminals or invaders. The very meaning of our border is that we can keep those who forcefully oppose us and our way of life on the other side. Let’s get serious about that, but we will find that task to be much easier and less expensive, if we let peaceful people alone, and quit declaring them to be “illegal.” Our growing “protect the borders” mania has prompted us to draw a very silly line in the sand. Let’s rub that out and start over from a sane and reasonable position.
By musings
February 13, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
Political mongrel is right. This is sovietization of our country. The person who said the key to controlling our borders lies in prosecuting employers who hire illegals is also right.
But I wonder what the employer would say in his own defense if prosecuted? Would he say that he was fooled by phony ID? And who’s to say Real ID won’t be counterfeited somewhere in China like a twenty-dollar bill? It is not magic. Would the employer merely pay a fine and go on hiring illegals, the way truckers pay for driving overweight cargo?
But the question about how this is all going to work should be hammered out by We the People, not imposed on us from above by the “Rulers”. That’s the problem with all of this. Our “Homeland” is a foreigner’s word. Our top-down government is the neocon’s socialistic creation, playing on security and fear, fear, fear.
If we don’t push back, and soon, without worrying about political correctness, the cowardly sovietization will proceed and strangle the life out of this country.
As for “secure borders”, I really think the problem is not so much terrorists, who can come in on passports and visas, from Saudi Arabia, with no questions asked, First Class. The problem is getting mixed up with the growing presence of low wage workers (and families) from Mexico. Let’s call things by their right names. What is drawing them here? Employment. Who is drawing them here? People who are able to hire them cheaply and get rich as entrepreneurs or to make the bottom line grow in their publicly traded company. The people who sneak over the border actually work. How long is it since you picked a row of strawberries or hacked down a bunch of asparagus (the worst, according to an illegal I have known)? Yes, talk to these people. They are here to live as peasants and quite frankly, our salad bars are possible with their cheap and miserable work.
By James Anderson Merritt
February 13, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
I just wanted to agree with “musings” about a couple of things:
Yes indeed, “homeland” seems like a foreigner’s term, invented by a non-American to give us a label to use. I would have expected something like “Department of Domestic Security,” at least. What does it say about our “rulers,” that they don’t even bother to give their authoritarian agencies titles that “sound right” to American ears?
The more that foreigners can come here and work in the open, in the full light of day, without having to worry about DHS, “La Migra,” etc., rounding them up and deporting them, the more they will demand better wages and conditions. This will help end sweatshops and sex-slave operations, to name just two unsavory “employers” of imported labor. It may also cause prices to rise, as wages and benefits rise. But the good news there is that existing American residents and citizens will be more competitive in the labor market against the foreigners. What’s not to like about that?
The key is to reshape our government and entitlements programs to ensure that everyone, native-born, naturalized, and foreigner, pull their own weight and the weight of their dependents. Dismantling of entitlements can’t happen all at once, of course. But I would rather have incremental dismantling of the entitlements structure than incremental implementation of RealID and subsequent incremental restrictions on liberties that proliferation of RealID will enable. Wouldn’t you?