Chatter

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

I don’t think the ramp is a problem…in fact, I was very distressed in 1996 when the HOV lanes went in and the ramp became HOV only. I had used it for over 5 years on my commute from Marietta to Coca-Cola. Getting off at Northside at that ramp shaved over 10 minutes taking the Howell Mill/Northside combo exit ramp that is like a breech birth! It seems VERY identified as an HOV exit to Northside drive.

By juustine

March 2, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

YES!!!! the problem is the signs onthe freeway are not clear. When you are moving at that speed you cannot see the sign. But the state is too cheap to write EXIT EXIT EXIT ONLY on the ground in bold yellow letters.

By Geoffrey

March 2, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

My wife and I frequently carpool to work and use that off ramp. It is well marked and the same as any other ramp that exits to the right.

By Erika

March 2, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

It is absolutely a problem. The signs are extremely confusing, and although I live less than a mile from that exit and always go through there, I still get irritated at the inefficient and badly designed layout of that whole intersection. Something needs to be done about it.

By ANGELA FLEMISTER

March 2, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

ABOLUTELY…………………IT IS SAD THAT IT TOOK THIS TRAGEDY TO BRING LIGHT TO THIS EXIT PROBLEM.

By Renee

March 2, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

Yes it is. It is a speed trap when entering the highway there as well. Police wait to pull large amounts of cars over to ticket them for HOV violations. The lanes are not marked large enough or clear enough. The HOV exit and entrance are small signs and hard to see in traffic or when it isn’t daylight.

By ANGELA FLEMISTER

March 2, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

ABSOLUTELY…………………IT IS SAD THAT IT TOOK THIS TRAGEDY TO BRING LIGHT TO THIS EXIT PROBLEM.

By Geoffrey

March 2, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

juustine, are you talking about the same exit? It is marked exactly the same as any other exit and is not “exit only” as you said. Unless you meant that once your on the exit it becomes exit only. But then again all exits are “exit only” once you drive up them. The road is smooth and even at that exit requiring you to make a deliberate left turn to take the ramp. How is this more dangerous than any other exit ramp?

By Greg

March 2, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

This is the same ramp that a drunk used to access the highway and drive the wrong way, killing a family a few years back. The northbound ramp is used almost everyday by the local police as a “ticket trap” because they know that the signage is so confusing that many people mistakenly use the HOV-only ramp to get onto 75N. Something needs to be done here. The current configuration is misleading and dangerous.

By DBH 1

March 2, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

Don’t forget this is the same interchange that a drunk driver entered the freeway the wrong way several years ago and traveled several miles northbound before crashing killing several people. Even though that driver was impaired, it does indicate that there is a problem with the design.

By Pam

March 2, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Based on the reported speed of the driver as he exited the ramp, my first guess was he thought he was still on the interstate and didn’t realize he was exiting. Either that or he was sleeping and the sleeping theory has already been proven otherwise. The HOV lanes are not the best thought-out design for people who are not familiar with ATL roads. I really do believe it was the design of the HOV exit lane that cause this tragic situation.

By slim

March 2, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Let’s see, this ramp has been an HOV exit for how many years?? 10?? and how many accidents have there been like this?? one??

If the signage was truly bad, there would have been more accidents like the one seen today, or possibly involving vehicles flying up the ramp, into traffic, but not quite going over the bridge.

This was a case of egregious bus driver error. You just DON’T fly up the ramp and assume it allows you to go straight unless you’ve driven it before to confirm.

By Drew

March 2, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

A very cheap solution is to put rumble strips at the base of the exit to alert you that you have to stop ahead. Depending on the actual length of the ramp this could have given the driver enough time to stop before going off the other side of the bridge or to at least dramatically slow down. Simple and inexpesive!!

By Carl G

March 2, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

First it was Comair in Lexington, where the signs were disregarded. Now the HOV exit lane signs were disregarded and again people died through others negligence. Be it bus drivers or pilots there is just too much complacency. This bus driver and the surviving Comair pilot should spend twenty years in prison to wake up the next person about their responsibility.

By alfonso the great

March 2, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

The HOV lanes are not clearly marked and the police sit there and wait for those who don’t see the signs to enter the highway and then they ticket them. It is a scam. And my friends in the police department will gladly tell you so.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Geoffrey - a road “smooth and even” doesn’t make it a safe exit. Are the signs large enough to see at a given speed? Can it be seen in the pre-dawn darkness? Can an out of state driver not used to Atlanta area roads make sense of the signs and exit? Remember this situation may seem very different to someone who does not use this exit every day like local commuters do.

By Dave

March 2, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

That exit and the northbound entrance ramp are both problems. The northbound entrance ramp is designed for the sole purpose of raising revenue. Anyone who denies that is kidding himself. The problem with the southbound ramp is that it doesn’t seem like an exit ramp. I’ve mistakenly found myself on that ramp without realizing it. Once I actually had to go ahead and exit. It was embarrassing but I was able to stop before doing what the bus did. I can see how a bus driver who is unfamiliar with the area, driving in the darkness, could make that mistake. The real surprise to me is that this hasn’t happened many times before.

By Joe

March 2, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

I have lived in Atlanta since before these ramps were converted to HOV and I think that they are marked as well as any others. However, the HOV ramp at Northside Drive is just north of the HOV exit lane to the downtown connector. I wonder if the driver of the bus mistakenly thought he was on that exit instead? At 5:30 am (in the dark) it could be a plausible explanation, especially since the bus driver apparently did not try to stop.

By Ann

March 2, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

That entire exit interchange is confusing. I have never used the HOV exit ramp, but on time I almost turned into from Northside drive by mistake.

Even if you are familiar with the area, it can be confusing because the signs are few and far between. On northside drive some of the signs are faded or hidden behind overgrown bushes.

Of course, if you exit here every single day, it is not confusing. duh

At the very least, there should be the “slow down” strips installed on the ramp because it is short. If you take it by mistake, then at least you would have warning.

By DJ

March 2, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

The exit is clearly marked. Any driver w/a bit of common sense and perception would see that. Those that don’t believe it shouldn’t be driving.

By ricardo

March 2, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

This type of layout is confusing to drive on. People get tickets pretty often and police knows about it.So they wait for you down the ramp instead of trying to prevent. nice yeah Hello??People who drive on that area everyday may not notice it because they get used to the same commute and makes it a mecanical drive but it is not well designed and the signage is confusing no doubt.

By Native

March 2, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

YES! I fully believe this accident happened b/c of this HOV/exit lane confusion. It’s awful. It’s always been a problem but no one’s cared enough to even think about it until now. So very sad.

By Anais

March 2, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

Yes! When I first moved here I had almost gotten in to an accident right in that same area. There are so many places in Atlanta (& the outskirts) that are not well lit, no signs (or street signs for that matter), nor are they painted very often so you can see the lines properly. Half of the time people do stupid things b/c there are no signs indicating what is going to happen (a merge for example) until it’s too late and then that person freaks out and follows the sign last minute and nearly kills everyone in their path. I know b/c I have been that person a couple times and it makes me mad. I used to wonder how someone could drive the worng way on the highway…there are some spots in Atlanta that make it perfectly easy. Again, I cannot remember where right at this point but when I first moved here I nearly went down the wrong ramp to 75. I made a U-turn once I realized what I had done. Someone older or paying less attention might not be that lucky.

By Brian

March 2, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

I’ve driven I-75 into the city for 27 years now. I’ve seen all the traffic improvements over the years and this one is still confusing to me, especially when driving the HOV lane. I tragic that such a horrible accident has resulted from this poor design. I suggest it be closed until fully investigated.

By Phyllis

March 2, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Atlanta highways and interstates are a disgrace. Lack of signs, lanes end without any signs, construction goes on with lanes closed that you don’t see until you are on top of the workers. Atlanta needs to get on board with the times. Paint the pavement indicating turns so that anyone from any country will understand.

By Monica

March 2, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

This exit is not very well marked as coming to an end at the top of Northside. As someone from out of town, I can see where this could have been a mistake - a costly one at that. Posted signs to reduce speed could have helped this situation. I feel for the team and its members.

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Greg…No one is ‘mistakenly’ taking that ramp not knowing that it is HOV!!! They are jerks breaking the law trying to get ahead of everyone else since the law doesn’t apply to them!! Just like gore violators that try to sideswip me as they enter the freeway. I am glad to see them get pulled over.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Carl - regarding the bus driver, unfortunately he died in the accident so he won’t be spending time in prison. Are you possibly “blaming the victim” here?

By Tommy

March 2, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Try entering I-75 from North Side Dr. when you are not from the Atlanta area. I was down there this past Saturday for the motorcyle show and nearly went southbound into traffic when I wanted to go north bound. One time I entered I-75 from North Side Dr. into the HOV lane north bound and drove in it a couple of miles before I ever realized I was in the wrong lane. The system is not designed real well to me. In places like Boston the HOV lanes are completely seperated from regular traffic by a barrier wall and the direction are changed for morning and evening rush hour which makes it safer and better. Down here they tried to get fancy and failed. Spent more money and got a poorer product.

By Common Sense

March 2, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

its only a problem at 5:30 am when you have been driving all night and may be a little sleep deprived…then your attention spam is reduced and your concentration is too. At that point I don’t care how the system is designed you may be in trouble. I drive the route everyday, it is very clearly marked and well lit at night.

By Ellen

March 2, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

As an Atlanta newcomer, I found this exit very confusing. It’s an honest mistake that anyone unfamiliar with the area could make.

By FNU

March 2, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

It is not obvious when dark, and left exits are not the norm. Also, there is only a stop sign at the top, so there is no reinforcing illuminated indicator that they need to decelerate quickly and stop. A person not from here, and following along the inside left line to stay in their lane could easily continue up the exit if distracted, especially if they are enjoying the skyline at night as they come around the corner of I75 southbound at that location.

Left exits in other states/cities usually get some kind of special indication and color so motorists know to start getting to the left instead of the right, and short exit ramps usually have extra signage to ensure motorists understand they must decelerate rapidly.

By Nancy

March 2, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

The exit off 75 onto Northside isn’t so much a problem as the cloverleaf that dumps you onto 75 South from Northside. You have exactly one car length to merge into traffic from the Howell Mill feeder, with no place to go if someone turns out to be in you blind spot except a concrete abuttment. It sound like the bus either lost its brakes or its transmission was caught in high gear, though, if not both.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

Great idea Drew. Rumble strips are a good solution. That would warn anyone who mistakenly got off at that HOV exit to stop quick.

By Connie

March 2, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

The design of that Northside exit is a problem for regular Atlanta drivers. Just imagine not being from the Metro Area and driving in the HOV lane at night. The bus driver thought he was still on the interstate and did not realize he was not until he saw the fence on the overpass. What a tragedy.

By j

March 2, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

The only problems with Atlanta roads are the morons that inhabit all of our roads. I’m sorry that people were hurt and killed but I guarantee that it had nothing to do with roads or signs all to do with skill and understanding. Atlanta is not confusing. If people just understand that if they know they need to exit EVERY DAY at the Cheshire Bridge exit, try to make sure that you’re in the far right lane around the time you get to N Druid. Don’t switch 6 lanes and cause a pile up right at the Cheshire Bridge exit. You go this way every day. Be prepared. All of us need to prepare. That’s the problem. If you goof, there’s always the next exit to correct this issue. Here’s what I see on a regular basis. This week has been chock full of immigrants not understanding the rules of the road or better yet, the “culture” of the road. Riding in the far-left lane on 85 nb at 7:15am while doing 55mph isn’t smart. This causes a back-up which develops into road rage. This morning (maybe some of you remember) at 7:15am 85 nb around 285 was the aqua-green Grand Prix doing 50mph in the fast lane. This driver had the nerve to flash the bird at me as I went by. This was unprovoked. Don’t be a traffic moron. Between the ladder-stacker vans and box trucks doing less that average speed in the fast lanes, all of our roads can be hazardous. It’s not the roads, it’s the people. The other memorable one this week was on Sidney Marcus turning left on to Piedmont in front of the Chik Fillet. Only 3 cars made it through the stop light turn arrow as this guy was READING the newspaper. I honked motioning for him to go and he took the time to properly fold his paper and then proceed with driving. When the next light caught us, he took the paper back out and began reading. He left about 3 car-lengths between his car and the one in front of him. This caused a back-up on Piedmont as this caused cars to block the intersection not to mention the people that broke into line at an angle causing more back-ups. The lights turned green and guess what? We sat there. I had to honk again. He threw his hands in the air as if asking “WHAT????”
WHAT???? Drive you idiot. I do not have road-rage. I have idiot rage.

The public needs to start reporting poor drivers to law enforcement. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Come on law enforcement, we need a little help here.

By Zach

March 2, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

I’ve traveled this road thousands of times, and I agree with Joe; if the driver had taken this route before, he may have been thinking he was further down where the HOV lane runs alongside the I-85 northbound ramp before suddenly cutting away to the south (esp.”suddenly” for a vehicle the of the bus’s size). This would explain the speed, but don’t forget how high up bus drivers sit; they have a much better view of the oncoming road. Odd that he wouldn’t have noticed the opposite ramp going down on his left, which looks very much like an on-ramp, and the fending at the top, the right angle of the bridge, etc. And isn’t there a stop sign at the top of the ramp? No one’s realized, this area’s not dark at all; it’s one of the best illuminated freeways inside the city.

By FlyJets

March 2, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

YES! The HOV lane exit is VERY CONFUSING. I can almost imagine what would have been the last sec. of the driver. Thought that was the HOV lane and took off on the ramp. THe last sec he must have realized there’s a wall and can’t do a thing crashed the wall. My heart goes out to the everyone who lost love ones in this tragic accident. May God Bless their souls. The HOV lane and poor marking are to blame in this accident.

By Chris

March 2, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

People are complaining about two issues; the signage for 1) entering the northbound HOV on ramp to I-75N as well as 2) the southbound HOV exit onto Northside drive where the accident occurred.

For 1), I agree. The signage is horrible and it’s easy to turn onto the HOV-only northbound onramp by accident (and be greeted by a police officer).

For 2, the signage marking the exit is adequate. Furthermore, there are dual signs on the ramp that warn about the approaching stop sign at the end of the ramp as well as a stop sign at the end.

By Jeff

March 2, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

I bet the bus driver thought he was at the 75-85 interchange just south of Howell Mill where the HOV lane veers to the left. The 75-85 interchange is the one that is screwed up.

By PlusSizeModel

March 2, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

I can’t imagine the ramp was the problem. I mean, the driver had to know he was exiting given the incline, not to mention the STOP SIGN! We must be looking at either mechanical error or a death wish on the part of the driver. Blaming the signage is just silly. On a side note: odd that god would kill christian college kids.

By Byron

March 2, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

I think it is really insensitive of the AJC to have the photos of the dead lying on the side of the road posted on the website. Someone in authority should remove them immediately and express regrets to families of those lost in this tragic accodent.

By Fishtales

March 2, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Common sense…why don’t you get some and read the report before spouting off. It was NOT some tired driver…he had just taken over the weheel an hour earlier.

By Suzan

March 2, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

When I was a new resident of this area, if my daughter hadn’t been with me I would have had a problem with that exit. To this day, I have to tell myself that that’s the HOV exit, and I’m a fairly good driver and very observant. The signage stinks. I don’t believe the bus driver realized what he was doing. Don’t condemn him, he and his wife were both killed. Think about his family and the families of the others and pray for them.

By Luis Hidalgo

March 2, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Yes this exit is a trap,if you drive from another Estate. They are not familiar whit this exit.

By Me!

March 2, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

Geoffrey, you ask, “how is this different from any other lane?” It isn’t any different. That’s the problem. I’ve been living in Atl for 6 moonths and I’ve never experienced roads and highways like the ones here EVER. There’s been many times that I’m driving straight and end up in a turning or exit lane and have to turn or exit when I don’t plan to. Whomever came up with this needs their head examined.

By PlusSizeModel

March 2, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

I might add that there’s no limit to what people will blame on someone else when something goes wrong. There’s no way the lack of signage was the problem. How someone could be “confused” when you go from a six lane freeway onto one isolated lane on an incline and a stop sign at the end of it is beyond me. Like I said: meachanical failure or driver death wish, period. You whining idiots make me shake my head ruefully.

By Me!

March 2, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

The roads here are designed for people who’ve lived in Atl all their life and not for newcomers and outsiders.

By Sad Story

March 2, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

Would it make sense to have a flashing yellow light at the end of the ramp?

Are the stop signs large enough, and does the elevation and lighting make the stop signs visible enough? Are there stop signs on both sides of the road, or only one side. At that intersection, I think there is only one at the far right side.

One factor is that in areas where there are fewer businesses, like that part of Northside drive, it’s less obvious that you’re exiting the highway.

Also, the HOV exits tend to be very long, very straight, and they use few signs.

This was driver error. Did the road design cause the crash? No. Could better signage or a flashing yellow light have prevented it? I say yes.

Rumble strips are an excellent suggestion, as others have noted.

My thoughts and prayers go to those kids and their parents.

By John M. Davis

March 2, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

I have come close to mistaking the exit at Northside Drive as a continuation of the express lane because of the dimond markings and the almost straight drive onto the ramp. It is understandable that a driver unfamiliar with the road might miss the signs in the dark of night, particularly going at a regular interstate speed.

By Don

March 2, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

The road system in georgia is terribe!!!!!!!!! That whole area should be redone. Try to get to I85 from the Northside how many lanes do you have to get across. The ramp that the bus took should have been an entrance ramp to 75s. The driver thought he was in the HOV lane thats why he did not stop for the sign. I have talked to the DOT many times and there are many mistakes that we the people have to pay for. To many people paid for this mistake.

By Tony

March 2, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

6 people died this morning what other message does the DOT need to get rid of this problem.

By Maggie

March 2, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

Absolutely!! It is a very confusing exit and I can easily understand how somehow not familiar with the road, in the dark, early in the morning could think it was a continuation of the HOV lane. I don’t think the driver realized they had exited the freeway until it was too late. From an eyewitness report the bus did not slow down once on the exit ramp. It is such a tragedy.

By K

March 2, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

This intersection is a problem for a lot of people. I don’t believe it is marked well at all. Just because people who live in the area or drive by frequently, have it figured it out doesn’t mean others can figure out where there coming and going on that overpass. I lived off Northside Drive right there near the overpass for years and I was constantly dodging drivers who couldn’t navigate it and I was involved in an accident, which totaled my car, because the other driver was confused by the signs and couldn’t figure out where she was going.

I have always thought the overpass was poorly designed and potentially dangerous (though I never imagined this type of accident). The screwed up design of the HOV lanes and the overpass are moot point, they’re built, they’re there, DOT isn’t going to rip it down. They deperately need to re-examine the signage.

God bless the families affected by this tragedy!

By momma

March 2, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

It’s a confusing lane and dangerous as is getting onto 75 from the entrance down the road and watching the fools try to get all the way over for 85. Atlanta roads aren’t designed well and that HOV exit and entrance is just flat out stupid. Why does the HOV people need a separate entrance and exit anyway, when you can just work your way over when you see the HOV lane with the broken dashed lines. That’s another problem, people racing to the HOV lane even when it’s a solid line. Just slow down and wait or get up a lot earlier. My prayers go out to the bus drivers family regardless of the mistake, he’s human, and so were the other lives lost.

By Diana

March 2, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Aother city I’ve visited (Houston?) has HOV lanes that run down the center of the interstate (meaning that they are entered onto from the left lane) and are accessible by an “on-ramp” type entrances. Perhaps the bus driver missed the “exit” sign and thought he was merely continuing onto a restricted-access section of the HOV lane?

However you look at this, it’s a combination of driver error and non-standard interstate highway design.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Plus size - assume the driver saw the stop sign at the top of the ramp - by that time it is too late to stop unless you’re going maybe 25 to 35 mph.

By mike

March 2, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Sadly, its the american way today, lets blame someone else. Lets blame the HOV lane, City of Atlanta, GDOT, Bus company, tire manufacturer, Hey how adout the driver of the bus, maybe he was at fault and is to blame. I know thats difficult for alot of people to try and grasp.

By Scott

March 2, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Ya think…..

By j.p.

March 2, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Just curious about the intersection there. From what I heard so far there is only a stop sign at the top of the ramp? That just doesn’t seem sufficient enough on an exit ramp that is that short and I am too surprised that this is the first such incident.

FWIW, it appears that the driver was only operating the bus for an hour.

By Zach

March 2, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Enough of the design bashing; that’s completely irrelevant. This man was a trained driver operating a huge passenger vehicle, not some grandma out for a Sunday spin.

I say confusion, fatigue, excessive (possibly) speed, and distraction were the cause of this horrific accident.

And yes, the image of the victims lying on the concrete is completely inappropriate; they should be removed.

By Tonya

March 2, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

After reading this, I have to agree with what almost everyone has said on this post. Yes, most of the time there are idiots driving on ATL roads and have no common sense or knowledge on driving; however, as someone who is not from the ATL area, driving in ATL IS confusing. I can easily see why the HOV exit could be confusing to someone who is not from here. ATL does not have enough signage to let drivers know what is coming up ahead. It’s not until you are practically upon your exit that you realize what is happening. Left exiting or entering is just CRAZY! Also, some of the designs of ATL roads are too short. Exiting Howell Mill from 75N is case in point. You have maybe 50ft to exit while at the same time someone is entering. Clearly a poor design. Driving in ATL - poor design and idiot drivers are the reasons for our accidents.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

I think Joe nailed it:

However, the HOV ramp at Northside Drive is just north of the HOV exit lane to the downtown connector. I wonder if the driver of the bus mistakenly thought he was on that exit instead?

The driver may not have been familiar with Atlanta, but may have been told that, in order to stay in the HOV lane, he needed to exit left as he approached downtown.

By Gus

March 2, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

This looks to be a case of driver error, plain and simple. However, this exit should be more clearly marked to ensure that no one ever makes this misstake again.

By Melissa

March 2, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

YES it is a HUGE problem. Three years ago I wrote a letter to the AJC about that exit after a young mother got on I-75 going the wrong way and got killed. Several deaths have happened because of that ramp not being clearly marked. Someone out there look at the stats - that ramp is dangerous and needs to be closed!

By Andrew

March 2, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

There are several bad ramps off of I-75.
The worst has to be I-75S to I-85N. I call the dirt pit behind the curve ‘The Landing Zone’ because of all of the car parts left there from past wrecks.

Even worse,2nd 285W exit comes to mind. A couple of years ago they added a sign that looks like a cursive Q, but you only know what the sign means if you’ve been around that exit before. If you don’t know the exit, you are all of a sudden faced with a sharp right turn and very little markings. Again, there is an area right behind this curve full of car debris.

As for the left exits in the HOV lanes, I could see how someone would get confused. Seems like the words “LANE ENDS 200 FEET” wouldn’t have been that expensive. Maybe even a red flasher at the top of the ramp.

By Jennifer

March 2, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

I certainly sympathize with everyone who lost their lives in this horrible accident. I have never had a problem with that ramp, and I remember when it was installed 10 years ago. It’s hard for me to fathom that someone could go up that ramp at 60 or 70 miles an hour and believe that such a sharp incline would still be part of an interstate. I’m also confused as to why there are no signs of the bus braking before it happened. Like someone else said, this ramp hasn’t caused problems for 10 years. You can’t redo everything on the interstates due to error by one driver.

By ATL Driver

March 2, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

Sadly, this accident costs four young people and a married couple (the bus driver and his wife) their lives. Do we have bad roads in Atlanta? Yes, of course. Was this wreck caused by bad markings/signage? I’d bet it played some role in the tragedy. Let’s all remember, though, that this is what it was — a tragedy. The parents of four kids woke up this morning to learn that their child was dead. Students awakened to news that their classmates were injured or dead. A small close-knit school will suffer the grief of this tragedy for some time. So for the person who noted that “God killed Christian kids,” remember — we all die at some point, Christian or not. For the commenters who are vehemently blaming the bus driver — remember that he too was human, just like the rest of us who have all made a mistake at one time or another. Is the road where the tragedy occurred confusing? In my opinion, yes. And we’ll likely see changes made in the next decade to make this section of highway less dangerous. But the most important thing to remember here is that four young people and two adults lost their lives early this morning, and the world of their friends and family will be forever changed. Like most Atlantans, my heart goes out to these people. I hope that the message they get from all of us is one of caring, not one of blame and arrogance.

By So Sad

March 2, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

I agree with Byron…To see the bodies of the students lying on the ground should be removed from the website. I lost my son almost two years ago and I could not imagine looking at the photos and seeing my child lying there.

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

I feel for the parents and surviving kids…and the family of the bus driver. But that ramp does have a pretty significant incline… AND a stop sign at the end…and concrete walls on each side. The driver should have either noticed the difference in incline or how totally different the lane was to the freeway. At least in enough time that he could have stopped before the fence. According to the reports, there we no skid marks anywhere on Northside at all. That means no reaction at all…and that is at least a 100 yard distance.

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

C’mon Mike. I’ve driven enough around here and elsewhere to know that poor roadway and signage design are definitely responsible for a host of accidents. The comments make clear that poor design and signage are at least a part of the problem. Sure, lets acknowledge that the driver may have been partly culpable, but good roadway design would not lead to that kind of accident except for the most drunk of drivers.

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

and why should the bus worry about using the HOV lane anyway? Not like at 5:30am (yes, even in Atlanta) there was much traffic at all in any of the other 5 lanes…

By mjones

March 2, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

This particular area is a problem. My daily commute is from the West side so my experience with 75 is limited. The ONLY time I have used the Northside entry to 75N was returning from an appointment at Piedmont Hospital. I missed the ramp to enter; turned around down the street to came back and mistakenly used the HOV entrance ramp. Yes, a (not so friendly)cop was waiting and told me “ignorance was no excuse.” However, there was a line of ignorant drivers behind me! Apparently I was not the only one who did not see the sign, which leads me to believe it is not clearly marked. I also recall tall bushes while trying to find a sign. I can see how someone not familiar with Atlanta combined with driving in the dark would have a problem if the exit ramp is as poorly marked. My prayers are with the families involved.

By casey

March 2, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

The obvious answer is that it was a combination of driver error and a confusing exit ramp.

By Jeff Tingle

March 2, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

As a trucker that has run all 48 States and Canada, I find Atlanta one of the WORST for commercial vehicles. Actually, I’ve never been inside I-285 on I-75 and I believe the “Thru trucks must use I-285” restriction is as much for our protection as much as Atlantans wanting to keep away from trucks. IMHO, the design of on/off ramps contribute to traffic accidents FAR more than officials are willing to admit. Truck lane restrictions are UNSAFE and are solely a revenue enhancement tool. My biggest fear in Atlanta was that I’d be SO wrapped up in staying with the ever-changing truck lanes that I’d hit another vehicle…

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

I think it was entirely appropriate to show the dead bodies on the concrete. That’s the ultimate reality of the world’s most stupid transportation system. Primates should not be driving anything that dangerous. Just look at the stats. That photo should wake all of us up to start thinking “outside of the car (or in this case, bus).”

By BJ

March 2, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

I agree. The signage is horrible and it’s easy to turn onto the HOV-only northbound onramp by accident. I too have been greeted by an officer.

By People

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure if everyone grasps this, but the FEDERAL interstates are not designed just for local understanding. I don’t mean to diminish what happened today, but all this “if you’re not from here, this is really confusing” talk is ludicrous. DC/Washington’s interstate layout is different, Dallas’ system is different, etc. I don’t drive to/through those cities expecting them to follow the “Atlanta” formula. I pay attention and adjust accordingly. For those of you who’ve PYSICALLY been in ATL all your lives, there are MANY exits on the left in large cities.

By Elaine

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I’ve thought the exit was a problem as soon as it was built…over 10 years ago…before it was HOV. Generally speaking, none of us are accustomed to exiting to the left, in the middle of the freeway. It’s just not the norm. And on top of that, the ramp is not really long enough to decelerate from “fast lane” speeds to a complete stop at the stop sign. And those of us who may drive it every day in an average vehicle don’t know what it may have been like for someone not accustomed to the interchange driving a CHARTER BUS to try to slow down and navigate that precarious spot. Those things don’t slow down/stop/hairpin turn like average vehicles do.

Yes, this was the exact same interchange that confused a driver into entering I75 the wrong way. That accident was in the dark as well.

So sad…

By Katie

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Well it’s too bad that the bus driver and his wife, and four young baseball players had to die. I’m sure the bus driver would rather be in prison for his negligence rather than have the blood of five other innocent people on his hands.

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I think it was entirely appropriate to show the dead bodies on the concrete. That’s the ultimate reality of the world’s most stupid transportation system. Primates should not be driving anything that dangerous. Just look at the stats. That photo should wake all of us up to start thinking “outside of the car (or in this case, bus).”

By Driver

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I am not familiar with this exit ramp at all, but it seems to me that judging from the number of people on here that have said it is confusing or a problem, that some people would find it difficult to figure out, especially someone not familiar with the road. I notice that most of the people saying it is not a problem are people who drive on it frequently. Obviously, if it confuses some of these bloggers, it could have very well confused the bus driver. Folks like to think it is always human error, that way it separates it from being something that could happen to them, because they’re supposedly “smarter.”

By People

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure if everyone grasps this, but the FEDERAL interstates are not designed just for local understanding. I don’t mean to diminish what happened today, but all this “if you’re not from here, this is really confusing” talk is ludicrous. DC/Washington’s interstate layout is different, Dallas’ system is different, etc. I don’t drive to/through those cities expecting them to follow the “Atlanta” formula. I pay attention and adjust accordingly. For those of you who’ve PHYSICALLY been in ATL all your lives, note that there are MANY exits on the left in large cities.

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I think it was entirely appropriate to show the dead bodies on the concrete. That’s the ultimate reality of the world’s most stupid transportation system. Primates should not be driving anything that dangerous. Just look at the stats. That photo should wake all of us up to start thinking “outside of the car (or in this case, bus).”

By Jack

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

If any good come from this tragedy, let it be a vast upgrading of highway exit signage on high-volume roads in the metro area. I think we’ve all been surprised in traffic when the lane suddenly exits almost without warning. Maybe this horrible crash will awaken GA-DOT to the need for better advance notice at exits everywhere.

By MLJ

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

It’s absolutely a problem. Just because there aren’t MORE accidents there doesn’t mean it’s not a dicey place. I live 2 blocks away and I encounter confused drivers EVERY time I’m in that area. Near misses just mean that motorists got off lucky.

When I first moved here, I too got confused and entered the highway from the HOV on-ramp instead of the regular one. Thank goodness I didn’t not get a ticket.

We also have to remember that that route is marked for folks coming from I-75 south to the Georgia Dome, Congress Center and Phillips Arena. You have people who are unfamiliar with the area over there all the time.

Better signage and a flashing yellow off that off-ramp would make a HUGE difference.

By Chris

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Not to put any blame on the bus driver, as some have, we don’t know the whole story. The truth is we need to be more careful out there…EVERYONE! Maybe there was driver fault, bu tthe fact remains we have all messed up, or made a mistake like driving. Lets take a lesson from this and be more aware of how we are driving and pay less attention to our cell phones, computers, and other distractions.

By Dre

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

If you’re paying attention to what you’re doing, there is NO EXCUSE to exit the freeway by mistake and at a high rate of speed like that. Now if you’re sleepy, impaired, or just flat out stupid, yes you might have a problem with that exit.

By holly

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

This just looks like an unfortunate set of circumstances, maybe the driver wasn’t 100% paying attention and the exit is a bit odd and not the best layout. Given that there was no attempt to brake it seems more than clear he thought he was still on the interstate up until just before he went over. And echoing others, I was absolutely stunned to see the picture of the victims (without any warning), dead bodies of what we know to be kids laying out on the interstate under bloody sheets with their bare feet sticking out, AJC take it down. You know families of the victims could be checking local news sources for information and that isn’t what they need to be seeing from a photo link from the front page of our paper. Come on.

By Pizen

March 2, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Well, given that the bus was traveling “at highway speed” according to GHP, 100 yards would be covered in no time. And let’s assume the driver realized his mistake as he shot up the ramp - there’s no way that bus is going to come to a stop in that limited distance. I’ve driven in several large cities, and I think that in general, the signage, lighting, and overall road striping/marking in Atlanta is poor by comparison. And the intersection designs are even worse. Others have commented on the 75SB entrance from Howell Mill and the 75SB exit for I-85; what about the Midtown workers trying to get to GA 400? How about some lights and better signage at the 85NB exit to N Druid Hills? California’s systems of road markings, rumble strips, signage, etc. might be overkill to some, but I wonder if overkill is really possible. I’d just as soon spend some dollars and do it right.

By Dee

March 2, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

I think the ramp may be confusing for drivers who arent familiar with the highway. They were traveling from another state, so the bus driver obviously wasnt familiar with the ramp. I think it is a terrible tragedy, and placing the blame will not erase this tragedy, but the city should ensure that proper signs are posted, if they feel that was the case, in order to prevent something like this from happening again. But, lets be real, the city of Atlanta can put up as many signs and motorists would probably still zoom past so fast without paying attention, the driving in Atlanta is horrible.

By Erica

March 2, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

It is definitely dangerous. I was just saying how dangerous it is to a friend last week. The signs are too close to the exit. You don’t know what mistake you’ve made until it’s too late. It’s just like the signage for the 75/85N split. There are daily accidents due to signage being too close to the division of the highway. People change lanes at the last minute and have accidents. The person who said that people know that they are illegally going into the HOV lane from Northside Dr. are mistaken. I’m sure people do do that, but it is also very easy to make that mistake and once you do it’s too late. Non-Atlantans can’t be expected to know all of the kooky things about our highways. Another very dangerous intersection is the ramp onto Langford Parkway Eastbound from 285S.

By E

March 2, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Yep, everybody speeds in that location and the signs are quite confusing, especially if you are trying to get on 85 North just past the Northside exit. Definitely not well-designed.

By Sharon

March 2, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

No, the exit isn’t a problem. I travel that route often and there are signs that clearly state it is an exit. There are no HOV lanes at that point. The question is how fast was the driver going not to notice that he was getting off the highway and not to be able to stop in time?

By Pat

March 2, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

I almost the same experience on this ramp 5 years ago when I move here from Texas. First of all a left exit is unusual in itself. Secondly, there is an HOV sign on the exit which I mistook for the actual direction of the HOV lane. Halfway up the ramp I realized there was a stop sign. NOT GOOD PLANNING. And finally, any city that has its major highways going west to go east and east to go west like the 75/85 north interchange, should not be surprised by this screwup in design.

And to the guy who said it has only happened once in 10 years I can only say that he should call the parents of the kids that were killed and explain it to them because he is obviously a perfect driver and this would not have happened had he been at the wheel. Give me a break.

By Tonya

March 2, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Well said!

By Ross

March 2, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

We had ramps like this in St. Louis but they were all heavily marked with flashing yellow lights and signs. The first time I exited this ramp on my motorcycle I was thinking how dangerous it could be if you weren’t familiar with it, because to all appearances it is just a highway lane - no curves or warning lights or anything. Yes, it is well marked as an exit but the very design requires of a lot of “STOP THIS MEANS YOU” and flashing lights.

-drl

By Too sad

March 2, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Did the driver use a GPS navigation unit? Maybe the nav unit got it wrong and it directed him to turn left too early?

The HOV lane for 75 south splits off to the left from I-75 about 1/4 mile South of Northside.

To change the subject: Mark my words, there will be bad fatal crash on GA-400 with those bus lanes. Whoever thought THAT was a good idea probably was the one who designed those stupid HOV lanes and their weird on and off ramps.

By Houston

March 2, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Is it a problem? If a bus drives off a bridge at 60 mph without attempting to stop, then it’s a problem.

By Patty

March 2, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Its very dangerous exit. I almost had a wreck twice before I realized how the exit worked. Traffic is so bad and vehicles fly on that part of I-75. If you are new to the area I can see how this wreck happened. I have traveled I-75 for 45 years going into Atlanta from North Marietta and still travel most weekends. When I heard about the accident this morning on TV, I said I bet this had happened due to that Exit.

This is only one of many bad exits around Atlanta and Metro Atlanta.

By Lewis

March 2, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

I’ve never been confused by this exit. From the HOV lane you exit left and the signs clearly state that. Plus, the lighting is adequate in that area.

I heard that the bus never attempted to slow down. It that’s true, I assume driver error or mechanical failure. The exit layout is fine in my opinion.

By Ron Fritz

March 2, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

On a dark, rainy night, to someone passing through Atlanta, I think a left hand HOV only exit after miles and miles of nothing but right hand exits is an accident waiting to happen again.

By Michelle

March 2, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

I don’t get downtown that often. When I do, it can be very confusing and dangerous if you are not used to driving down that way. And I have lived in GA for 15 years!!! The signs are getting better, but there is definitely room for more improvement.

By S

March 2, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

I’ve lived in ATL long enough to know that the signs aren’t exactly accurate. I’ve seen signs that’ll say you have a mile and quarter to an exit when in reality it’s a half mile to a mile. So if you don’t live here, that’s an exit you’ll miss.

That Northside HOV exit blends in with the lane itself.  At that hour of the morning, anyone can roll right off it before they figure out what they've done.  So just imagine what someone who isn't from around here will do.

 Personally I don't think you should have an exit coming out of a fast lane to begin with.

By Jason

March 2, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

I could potentially understand why the driver of the bus could have been confused. I do recall that the signage there is a little lacking, and many other metro areas have elevated carpool lanes above freeways (the 110 freeway in Los Angeles, for example).

Someone not familiar with the layout of the Northside exit could easily have assumed the incline was nothing more than the carpool lane starting to run above the freeway - hence, no slowdown on the incline.

By joe

March 2, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Terrible tragedy, one that could have been avoided. I too have used the Northside entrance & exit ramps and have never been confused by them. I guess an out of towner might get a bit confused, but how could the driver not have noticed he was the only 1 going uphill off I-75 towards a bridge? What, did he think his lane was the only lane that magically jumps OVER the bridge? C’mon people….this was just inconceivable driver error. If it was bad design, you would’ve seen this type of accident there many times by this point. Chalk it up to another tour bus using excessive speed mixed with inattentive driving resulting in a horrible fatal accident.

By julie

March 2, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Are you kidding me? YES, it’s a bad design. It is an AWFUL and dangerous design, even for people such as myself - a native Atlantan. Not only are the exits from 75 North and Southbound in that area confusing, the Nothbound HOV only lane from Northside Drive is ridiculous. Even trying to exit onto Northside Drive heading North on 75 is dangerous because you have to get over, over, over quickly while people are trying to get ONTO 75…..it’s extremely dangerous.What were they thinking - and who are they, exactly? I think we have a right to know who the designers of this dangerous morass are, don’t you?

By atlantaroy

March 2, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

Anyone new to the are would be confused based on signage. I used to drive in at 530am down 75S. Once out of Cobb Country there were no lights. It was like entering a moonscape. I’m not familiar with that specific intersection because I never get off there but I do know that in general many of the exits are confusing. Example 75 south using HOV then needing to get interstate 20 having to cross 6 lanes of traffic. And I love that hairpin curve from 75S to 85N. Ridiculous.

By Native Atlantan

March 2, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

That entrance/exit configuration has been a problem since it was opened. There have been numerous wrong way drivers enter 75 north from that exit from 75 south. If many will remember 1992 or 1993 (not sure of the dates), but that was the same exit ramp that a drunk driver entered onto and drove all the way to the South Loop in Marietta before finally plowed head on into a family on vacation on Memorial Day weekend killing all of them.

The state has closed that ramp for years and re-opened it when the HOV lanes were open. It need to be permanently shutdown. If you need to get to Northside Drive use the Howell Mill Drive exit.

State of Georgia open your eyes and close that exit today. That whole Northside Drive and Howell Mill Road on/off system is ridiculous.

God be with the family’s of the injured and killed this morning

By Uhhh Sharon....

March 2, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Ahem, Sharon. You are lost. Get a map. You state “There are no HOV lanes at that point” Hellooo….he was in a HOV lane and he took an HOV exit. Are you the lady in the Prius who tried to ram me on the 17th street I-75 exit this morning?

By gtfan

March 2, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Ummmm… it’s obviously a ramp, it risies above the rest of the highway, and you have to merge left to take it.

Don’t see how it can be any more ovbious than that.

By Kathleen

March 2, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Not clearly marked? I see people every day turn right on red when there are 3 signs at an intersection telling you that you can not turn right on red. I bet their excuse when they get a ticket is that it is not clearly marked.

By Vince

March 2, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

I knew exactly what happened before I even learned of the route the bus had taken. I pictured it in my head as the only way the bus could have ended up where it did. He ran up the HOV ramp, ran out of room, and flipped over the wall.

Carelessness? Maybe. Fatigue? Maybe. Poor Signage? Maybe. Poor Lighting? Maybe. Poor HOV lane design? No question in my mind.

I have always thought the reason the HOV lanes were installed in Atlanta was so the GA DOT wouldn’t lose federal funding due to conformity laws, and not because someone had a great idea and put a well-designed plan into action. They threw a plan together, narrowed all the lanes, painted some stripes, and proclaimed “We’ve got HOV lanes.”

It is just an opinion (as our all of these posts), but I think the HOV lanes in Atlanta are poorly designed. It makes no sense to me to tell someone in the HOV lane they cannot get out of that lane because there is a double white stripe. It’s like Les Nessman’s office on WKRP. Exiting to the right-hand exit ramps is asking for trouble as well. You can’t get to any of the intersecting interstates from the HOV lanes. I could go on.

But hey, “We’ve got HOV lanes” (and we get to keep our federal funding to poor more concrete).

By atlantaroy

March 2, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

I to love the “it only happened once comment” . Many of the HOV exits are totally screwed up. None of us have any idea how many accidents have happened there. I love the hairpin from 75S to 85N. Also if you are traveling 75 S in the HOV and have to get on I20 by crossing 6 lanes of traffic is ridiculous. Anyone driving that stretch for the first time would be confused!!!

By MadSmoker

March 2, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

PlusSizeModel try driving that route tomorrow morning. If you watch the bright yellow line on the left side of the HOV Lane, you will notice that is continues smoothly up the exit ramp to the left. Easy to follow. What’s missing and hard to see is the dashed white line (its worn away) that continues straight on the interstate. Rumble strips on the ramp would have prevented this accident.

By Eric

March 2, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

If people would just pay attention, none of this would be a problem.

By dsl

March 2, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Pat, what are you talking about? The 75/85 interchange isn’t east/west. I can’t really believe I’m responding to this blog since all the AJC will do is take all the responses and write an article about how the ramp design caused the accident. The driver’s dead so we’ll never know, and all the speculating in the world won’t change that.

By j

March 2, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Not just the Northside Drive HOV lane exit, but all of the HOV exits AND entrances onto the highway into the HOV lanes (think getting on 85 N at Lindbergh) are accidents waiting to happen. They are Dangerous with a capital D, and I can’t believe the designers of these roads could be unaware of their potential for fatal accidents.

By slim

March 2, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

I hate to ask, but I’ll go ahead and ask: was the driver Muslim?? this whole thing reminds me of the Egypt Air plane crash 2 or 3 years ago…

By Anais

March 2, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

Not to mention the HOV lanes never leave you with enough time to exit off them before they are double solid lines. If you are not from around here and do not know exactly what exit you are getting off at- that ccan make you rip through the solid lines and get over several lanes to your exit. This is stupid. There are so many other instances I could mention….

By MadSmoker

March 2, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

The Southbound exit for Northside Drive is deceptive, especially in poor visibility conditions.

What’s worse is the next exit, that hairpin curve from 75 South to 85 North.

There is a debris field there from so many people running off. The curve lies is visually deceptive because you don’t clearly see the actual pavement until you are very close.

After the bridge with the near-comical warning signs, you go for a ways and then only one sign points to where the road goes, and that one is on the wrong side of the highway.

We need better signs, yellow ones with arrows outlining the curve. This simple fix seems insurmountabel yet we we have shiny new signs on every bridge, interchange and highway which glorify some obscure elected officials. Thanks goverment.

By RWH

March 2, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

The comments made signal a time for something to change. Saddly, it took lives for those who knows much about such dangerous thing such as that to have happen. Children should live to take our place instead of leaving at such a young age. Now, will something be done to correct what I am hearing about that part of the highway? Let’s not let this same sort of thing be repeated as we know, that is a highly traveled highway.

By Steven Schindler, P.E.

March 2, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

As a professional highway engineer, I can tell you that the common “Jersey” concrete barriers (railings) on bridges are not tall enough to prevent vehicles with a high center of gravity such as busses, semi trucks, or SUV’s from flipping right over them and going off the edge. This is a major problem nationwide. The current design for the “Jersey” barrier is decades old. The average height of vehicles is higher than it used to be with all the trucks and SUV’s on the roads these days. Just look at the recent school bus accident in Huntsville, AL on Interstate 565 as another example of a high center of gravity vehicle flipping right over a concrete barrier bridge railing. It’s well past time for the Federal Highway Administration to pursue improved concrete barrier designs.

With the HOV ramp ending directly on the center of the Northside overpass bridge, there is no room for error if a tall vehicle makes a mistake when trying to turn right or left, and if the driver overshoots the turn for one reason or another, what happened today can easily be the result.

By Jean

March 2, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

The signage at that particular area - Northside and I-75 - is confusing. My first, second, and third trips to the medical office complex caused frustration on Northside and trying to get on 75S has caused me to almost get hit by another car getting in the correct lane, signs are to close to the exit, and on a number of occasions, I have had to go down Northside and turn around to get to the south exit ramp. I am not familiar with the HOV ramps in that area but that was certainly a tragedy - God bless all the families involved.

By Scott

March 2, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

After reading a number of these comments, it’s a sad testament that you all have drivers licenses. It’s no wonder the traffic in Atlanta is so horrible.

By GT

March 2, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

There was death on the highway today. Guy wasn’t drunk or as far as we can tell anything but trying to get from A to Z. “The only problems with Atlanta roads are the morons that inhabit all of our roads” was the quote from some real moron before the bodies are cold. If a man hasn’t got respect for human life how you going to explain the necessity to safeguard it?

By Lyn and Wesley Vann

March 2, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Just yesterday my husband and I took Northside Drive home to escape the evening logjam on the connector. When we turned onto the northbound HOV entrance to I-75 my husband said, “this is so confusing and dangerous. They ought to do something.” You can imagine our horror to awaken this morning to this horrible tragedy. We’ve been sick about it all day.

By Steven Schindler, P.E.

March 2, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

Further comments from a Professional Engineer:

the ramp should have had rumble strips across the pavement to help alert drivers of what is apparently only a STOP sign (which should have a flashing red light above it) at the top of the ramp where it runs into the overpass bridge.

I’ve driven across the USA and have been looking at highway signs for years. Georgia’s are among the very worst.

By Chris

March 2, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

HUMAN ERROR!

This is another example that speed kills and so does not paying attention.

Flashing lights and speed humps to make you snap out of the hwy hypnosis must be installed to keep this from happening.

At the 85 / 75 split the HOV lane for 75 goes to the left and 85 is a sharp curve but a car each month or more flips and crashes at this curve even with the speed humps and flashing lights that state to go 35 MPH.

SPEED KILLS!

By JFZ

March 2, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

The problem isn’t the signage, the ramp, the amount of light provided overhead (my car came with headlights), the rumble strips or any other excuse. The problem is that drivers don’t pay attention; they’re eating their breakfast, drinking their coffee, talking on their cell phone, looking for CD’s on the floor, reading a newspaper, having conversations with others. If drivers actually concentrated on driving there wouldn’t be tragic accidents. And for those who aggregiously disregard the safety and welfare of others; for all of you who maintain ramps are bad because drunk drivers keep turning into them; let’s actually punish people.

By RissaMom

March 2, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

I live in the suburbs and when i go to midotwn and downtown ATL, the signage is so confusing and quite scary expecially when it is dark. I can see how the driver might have continued (without braking) thinking he was on interstate. Please, please let this be an impetus for our DOT to improve signage for our residents and out-of-towners.

By kay

March 2, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

Um, duh…there have been a number of wrong way accidents there and at least one other fatality that I can think of offhand. In fact, this same issue was discussed on the news then about that ramp. You gotta consider everyone that will be using the ramp; even though it may be perfectly clear to some and most of us have never had an accident there, people are being hurt and killed there. Calling the drivers dumb, etc. doesn’t contribute anything.

By Marky Mark

March 2, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! Stop playing the blame game here…how many THOUSANDS of out of state motorists have driven down I-75, used the HOV lanes, and not screwed up on that ramp? This is a tragedy, but if this exit ramp were such a menace, wouldn’t there have been more tragedies?

The city and state is responsible for some really goofy design blunders when it comes to Atlanta roads. But this ramp isn’t one of them. HOV lanes are one of the few positives when it comes to interstate driving in Atlanta. I’ve used this same ramp many times, and it’s curious to me how a person couldn’t know that the dotted line denotes an exit ramp. It’s the same concept on any street, those dotted lines are not there just for decoration.

Why do people in this country so insist on finding a scapegoat at all costs? That weasel Jim Strickland was on WSB today before the bodies of those poor peopel were even cold, desperately trying to stir the pot and blame the design of the ramp for the tragedy. You people are just playing into his hands, creating hysteria where there should only be sympathy.

By Ben

March 2, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

I think a lot of you are missing the point entirely. The bus driver surely didn’t realize he was driving in an exit. Right passed the Northside exit is the HOV ramp that goes over the 2 lanes that connect to 85-N and continues down the Connector. The signs for the connection to 85-N and the HOV ramp that continues on the connector appear well before the Northside exit, so the driver surely thought he was on the one lane ramp to stay on 75-S and NOT on a freeway exit. That explains why there are not tire marks from the brakes and it explains why there was radical swerving at the last second. Being 5:30am, it was still dark and he probably didn’t see that the lane he was in has a dead end until the last second.

If it were daytime, he would’ve clearly been able to see that he was headed for offramp that dead ends at a bridge. At night though, and with poor lighting, it’s a very easy mistake to make.

By GB

March 2, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

Definately yes! That exit is very confusing for people who aren’t familiar with the design of the exit - particularly when driving in the dark. When the bus driver suddenly found himself off the interstate, with no return access, he had no where to go but straight through the rail and right off the bridge. This could have been avoided with better signage. So very sad.

By Ben

March 2, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

I think a lot of you are missing the point entirely. The bus driver surely didn’t realize he was driving in an exit. Right passed the Northside exit is the HOV ramp that goes over the 2 lanes that connect to 85-N and continues down the Connector. The signs for the connection to 85-N and the HOV ramp that continues on the connector appear well before the Northside exit, so the driver surely thought he was on the one lane ramp to stay on 75-S and NOT on a freeway exit. That explains why there are not tire marks from the brakes and it explains why there was radical swerving at the last second. Being 5:30am, it was still dark and he probably didn’t see that the lane he was in has a dead end until the last second.

If it were daytime, he would’ve clearly been able to see that he was headed for offramp that dead ends at a bridge. At night though, and with poor lighting, it’s a very easy mistake to make.

By Jim

March 2, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

Back when the blog was on a different topic, some people were asking how to help. That blog has disappeared now. But if those who were asking before have found their way to this blog, they may want to know that the Red Cross has a center set up at the Marriott Marquis downtown where they are giving comfort, meals and mental health support. Just FYI.

By ch

March 2, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

A few months ago I went to Atlanta for work. I tried entering I-75 from North Side Dr. and nearly went southbound into traffic when I wanted to go north bound. I slowed down enough and got onto the I-75N ramp where the cops were pulling everyone over. I did not see any signs but one saying I-75N (which was the HOV ramp)! Police officers had to tell me how to get on not using the HOV ramp which I saw no signs for! When you are not from the downtown Atlanta area you don’t know these highway ramps. The system is not designed well unless you drive that way everyday!

By Kerington

March 2, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

The exit is horrible especially coming the other way, if your on northside, and your trying to get on the expressway going north you end up accidently getting on HOV because there are no other signs and you end up getting tickets because of it. So I think they should change it!!!!!

Thanks Georgia!!!!!!!!!:(

By harold

March 2, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

saw on the drudge report that the diebold computer navigation system told him he was left-exiting at the 75/85 split to stay on 75/85 south

this illustrates the danger of these navigation systems. they are always telling people wrong things, well this time it got everyone killed

just think what has been done to our elections by this company

By Just some guy

March 2, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

I would love to have a few minutes alone with the sadistic b*stard who designed the entrance/exit ramps along that entire stretch of I-75. Ridiculous.

By Elaine Johnson

March 2, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

Driving in Atl is very challenging, even for a professional driver.. I know of too many roads that are dangerous and signs being posted too late to make a decision. I’m not familiar with that exit but my bet is the road is deceiving.. its very dangerous driving here and everyone thinks the interstate is a race track. maybe something will be done…the focus is definitely in the wrong place here in atlanta..

By Jennifer

March 2, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

I think it’s well marked but I am also used to it. Someone coming from out of town may not be aware of the change (obviously). However, it is clearly marked. I agree it is a tragedy and I feel terrible for everyone involved. However, there are hundreds of thousands, probably millions by now, who have traveled on the same road and not had a problem.

By rochie

March 2, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

its clear it 2 things: human error or the guy wanted to do this. how could u be a professional bus driver and take a ramp without slowing down at all. the police said there was NO attempt to stop.

By Lucia

March 2, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

No this exit is not a problem. It just requires that drivers pay attention to where they are and what they are doing. It is clearly marked and a good driver would have realized what was happening.

By harold

March 2, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

OUR ENTIRE ROAD SYSTEM SHOULD BE EXPLODED LIKE IRAQS

WE MUST BUILT TRANSIT NOW AND STOP BUILDING A CITY FOR MOTOR VEHCILES

BUILD FOR PEOPLE INSTEAD SO PEOPLE CAN LIVE

WHY DO WE KEEP GIVING CARS ALL THE RIGHTS???

SUNNI PERDUE THIS IS BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS FOR REFUSING TO HELP ATLANTA WITH RAIL

By GeorgiaYankeesFan

March 2, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

ABSOLUTELY! There are a ton of on ramp and exits like this around Atlanta. I just drove past the accident site about an hour ago and I can easily see how the driver could easily mistake that exit for a roadway. Even if he thought it was an exit he probably thought it was like a typical exit ramp that would lead to a light or easier merge. This exit really needs to be better marked or perhaps permanently blocked off, it might inconvenience folks to exit right at that exit but better that than the tragedy we saw today.

By Terpfan

March 2, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

I live in DC/Baltimore area and in Atlanta frequently. The interstate system is not much different in Atlanta as it is in DC or Baltimore. I do see one huge difference. The speed people drive on I-85 and I-75 is crazy. I cannot believe the excessive speed that people drive in Atlanta. It seems the average speed is about 75-85. Here that gets you a ticket.

By Rob

March 2, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

Joe, you hit the nail on the head with this statement from earlier. In fact, I was just thinking on Saturday about this very scenario. The Northside exit sign has the HOV diamond on it. That could be confusing. In any case, the driver should not have been at full highway speed.

By Joe

March 2, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

I have lived in Atlanta since before these ramps were converted to HOV and I think that they are marked as well as any others. However, the HOV ramp at Northside Drive is just north of the HOV exit lane to the downtown connector. I wonder if the driver of the bus mistakenly thought he was on that exit instead? At 5:30 am (in the dark) it could be a plausible explanation, especially since the bus driver apparently did not try to stop.

By iworkonnorthsidedrive

March 2, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

if you dont have to circumnavigate that intersection on a regular basis you have no room to talk - i work on northside drive and that intersection is a disaster waiting to happen - i’m surprised it didnt happen earlier - i hope the families of the victims sue the georgia d.o.t.’s socks off - the ga dot needs to get a clue - that’s not the only super dangerous and poorly planned intersection in metro atlanta either

By Dan

March 2, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

The driver was probably from Ohio. If this was his first trip through the city, it may have been somewhat confusing. I’ve travelled all the interstates in the northeast and I have rarely, if ever, encountered a left hand exit ramp. If you need an exit ramp off a HOV lane, have it swerve to the right as normal. It may take more money to make two separate ramps for exit and entrance ramps for the HOV lanes, but at least the driving habits of all drivers will be respected in their consistency. I wonder many left hand exits are in Ohio.

By Lisa

March 2, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

This is a terribly confusing exit, as most of our highways are and I have lived here since 1972. That being said, I am certain that for a driver who is not familiar with our confusing designs could make the mistake that apparently they did. Unfortunately, the driver, his wife, and 4 others were killed and I guess we can all sit her and speculate what happened but we will really never know. I vote - in an effort to prevent a tragedy like this in the future, and just as a precautionary, the GA DOT should add the rumble strips and a yellow flashing caution light at the off ramp. Perhaps an incident like this could be avoided in the future. I pray for all of those children, coaches, and their families. This is just so sad.

By JAMIE

March 2, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

The atlanta freeway system is the worst in the United States. It is a poorly designed hodgepodge of add-ons and compromises due to underfunding and poorly planned growth. atlanta freeways are almost impossible for natives to navigate and it is a miracle that anyone from out of the area makes it through here alive. There are accidents and deaths on atlanta freeways daily-many of which never even make the news. What happened today is a total and complete waste of human life and as far as I am concerned the blame rests squarely with the engineers at the DOT-I hope you people sleep well tonight.

By ok

March 2, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

Ben is right and you also need to keep something in mind : We had HEAVY rain in this area of Atlanta for more than 18 hrs. This morning the roads were still wet and some were floded. I am deeply touched by the tragedy but all the factors just combined for the fatal chain of reaction. Place yourself in the shoes of the driver and please let his soul rest in peace.

By Andy

March 2, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

I’ve always said there are too many people with driver’s licenses in America. I’m sure about 70% of you idiots shouldn’t be operating a motor vehicle. BUT, instead the USA is this warped place where death and destruction rules, and people will continue on their Satanic-Baptist ways. I hope more of you bastards kill yourself, then go meat your Satanic Majesty in Hell…

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

It is interesting to me how many times folks are commenting on the HOV ENTRANCE ramp from Northside Dr. to 75 north…..and how confused they are. This accident did not happen on the entrance ramp to 75 but FROM 75 to Northside.

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

Over 40,000 people die in auto accidents in this country each year. Thousands more are injured. If that many soldiers died in Iraq…well, you know what I mean. So many people say of dead soldiers “He died for a noble cause.” One can’t really say that for the poor guy who gets killed in a car accident “He was going to Home Depot to return some warped lumber.” If we can put a men on the Moon and bring them back, rovers on Mars and drive them around from hundreds of thousands of miles away, why can we find a way to use our roads but leave the driving to automation? If we converted our primate-controlled vehicles to automatically controlled, fixed-trajectory “pods,” we would not have this problem. Every solution offered on this string presumes that humans will always be the ones operating the vehicles. We could even give the contracts for such a system to the very companies that make our own WMD. Why not give the citizen what he wants (privacy, convenience, comfort) AND safety. Think pods.

By Bill

March 2, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

Scroll up a bit and re-read Marky Mark’s comment.

It is the most intelligent take on this page.

Sometimes accidents happen. On this scale, they are truly tragic. Please at least take a minute - one minute - to consider that before resuming your witch hunt. I know most of you truly won’t be happy until someone loses their job over this, and that is troubling.

By Daylight Come

March 2, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

Whether it’s confusing to you or not confusing to you personally, you are cold if you can’t recognize it may be confusing to someone else and what would it hurt to err ont the side of over-signage in anticipation of that person is confused? Better safe than sorry, right. The way people drive like bats out of hell in Atlanta and on interstates does not leave much time to anticipate the unknown or expected up ahead.

By John

March 2, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this

The signage is more confusing getting on the highway than getting off. You hear all the time about people trying to get on 75N via the HOV entrance (whether it be from confusion due to a first timer or someone who has not been in the area in awhile and didn’t realize the ramp is now HOV). Once you enter, there is no way to turn back and of course the cops are always waiting the nab you.

And then people who know not to use the HOV miss the entrance because they expect it to be on the opposite side and not a loop around.

By Shannon

March 2, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

From the very first time I saw one of these left-side HOV exit ramps I felt that they would one day be a problem. The Northside Drive exit is not clearly marked and is very confusing, especially I would imagine to someone who is not from the Atlanta area or doesn’t drive this route very often, especially if it is still dark out as it was this morning.

By Talkingrock

March 2, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

Judging by the previous responses and the number of accidents, it sounds like lots of people have problems with the HOV ramps on Northside Drive. They are confusing especially if you’re not familiar with the area. As an Atlanta resident for 43 years I remember other fatal accidents involving this exact, same ramp. (people coming from Northside trying to head north on 75, but mistakenly taking the southbound on ramp because the ramps are side by side, thus resulting in fatal head-on collisions) Even though I use these ramps and it would extend my travel time, I would be happy if they closed them down to save lives. It would be the responsible thing to do.

By JMS

March 2, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

I grew up here in Atlanta and remember when they reworked the bridge and put in that ramp. It’s extremely confusing for someone unfamiliar with it and I can see how the driver of the bus thought he was still on the highway. It is a poorly designed bridge and ramp. The DOT should take a long hard look at doing something about it.

By Becky

March 2, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

In almost every other state, all exits are on the right, not the left. Very odd design. I think the bus driver thought he was still on 75S and just kept going and when he realized, it was too late.

By Jozef

March 2, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

The area around the Northside exit is difficult by itself. 75SB is sloping downwards, which causes most drivers to go faster than they’d otherwise go. In addition, this causes the exit ramp to be much less steep than most other ramps that go up to an overpass. This reason should be enough to install some “overkill” warning signs, such as the already mention rumble stripes, a clear sign that the HOV lane goes downhill (instead, there’s an HOV sign right at the exit), and road paintings that visually divide the exit from the HOV. If I remember the last time I got confused there, there was a line along the edge of the road, but no roads markings that would alert me that I was about to enter a highway exit.

By Bill

March 2, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

These are the kinds of things that happen when environmentalists and politicians get mixed up in highway design and engineering. HOV lanes and left exits both break the cardinal rule of “slower traffic keep right.”

While the bus driver was ultimately responsible for the accident, he had plenty of help from poor highway design.

By KVallery

March 2, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

I know this exit well, and it is confusing….especially to a newcomer. Atlanta’s signs are slightly placed a little different than most cities I visited. When I first moved here 6 yrs ago that exit often scared me and I am not a timid driver. I don’t know if this is why the driver went over, but I am a witness to thinking it was a normal exit and then being forced to move over, Atlanta has a few exits like that. Such a sad trajedy regardless.

By CJ

March 2, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Yes, the ramp is a problem! I just returned from California. Out there it is very common for HOV lanes to turn into an aerial bridge which is an express route without all of the exit lanes available to the standard interestate. This is a common design everywhere but Atlanta (Atlanta really should do this too to speed up traffic). I don’t blame the bus driver at all. Even once this ramp reaches Northside Drive there is no traffic or caution light, just a little stop sign. I only expect stop signs at exit ramps out in the country.

By BW

March 2, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Those HOV lanes are nothing but a way for the police to collect revenue. They dont stop drivers on the ramp for safety reasons. 1 person vs 2 getting on the expressway there doesnt create a safety issue.

By APD Ofc.

March 2, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

As an APD officer, I have to say that the Northside interchanges are very confusing. I don’t think it is because of an elaborate plan to increase revenue, but simply due to an attempt to retro-fit the highway for HOV lanes.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this

All of Metro ATL has terrible signage there are accidents waiting to happen all over. My heart goes out to the families. We need to get out this small town thinking…”I made it through why can’t you”. I was born in GA, but come from a military family; I have lived all over the USA and Europe too, and I think GA DOT need to clean house……where are the white regulatory signs? The only ones you see are the fines for throwing trash;. what about the ‘Lights on when Raining’ signs.

By SteveC

March 2, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

Georgia’s highway signage, especially on Interstates, is truly pathetic. So amateurish and confusing! Is it due to laziness in the DOT, stupidity (dimwitted DOT rednecks hiring their dimwitted relatives?), poor eyesight, lack of funds (no; they waste millions on unnecessary roads now) or do they just have no clue? And, no, I’m not from out of state. Born and raised in Georgia.

By Don

March 2, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

Katie at 3:04 time talking about how lucky the driver is to be dead. sorry to say you are an idiot

By DumbassLiberal

March 2, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

The problem is the HOV lanes!! This attempt at reverse social engineering is a complete failure. Not only is it not getting more people to car pool, it is causing us to use more fuel by adding to the congestion in the non-HOV lanes. HOV lanes contribute to global warming more than they help reduce it. How many more have to die before we end this failed experiment?

By Stephen

March 2, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

The BusDriver(traveling in HOV lane) mistook the “HOV Exit” sign for a “maintain in HOV” directional sign.

He obeyed the sign/arrow thinking it would keep him traveling southbound on 75.

Doesn’t this make sense?

By edward

March 2, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

Use Windows Live Local Aerial view to eximine the area. This is a HOV exit. You will see two side by side HOV diamond markers on the pavement about 20 yards after the split. At night you might think the diamond marker on the exit indicates you are still on the expressway. You have about 300 yards from the split to the STOP but only about two bus lengths from the STOP markers on the pavement before the STOP which could be to late for a fully loaded motor coach.

By Karen Cook

March 2, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

Yes, I think that Northside Drive exit is terrible. I am from Ohio and I know that the interstates there do not have no left-hand exits. If you are not familiar with Georgia interstates, you will be doomed. I pray that something like this will never happen again.

By wayne

March 2, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

Wow there are a lot of stupid drivers chiming in on this one. Confusing or not, it EXTREMELY evident that it is actually an exit, especially once you’re on it. It may not be the one you meant to take, and yes, cops use the entrance as a revenue source, but if you’re arguing that it’s confusing whether or not it is an actual exit, you’re an idiot. Please turn in your license and get the hell off the roads.

By GLENN

March 2, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

The MAIN problem on the Interstates in Atlanta is that folks forget that the speed limit is “55”!!!!!!!!!!! Obviously, and tragically, this bus driver took the curve too fast and didn’t have the braking capacity to slow his vehicle down in time. It is a very sad consequence of excessive speed by a huge, bulky, bus :-( Thank God the bus did NOT land on a vehicle traveling below the bridge!!!

People need to slow the heck down!!!!! SLOW DOWN, SLOW DOWN….Especially when you are from out of town and not familiar with the exits….

By Karen Cook

March 2, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

Just wanted to add that Ohio interstates do not have HOV lanes. Just pray for the survivoring people and hope that they will be healed.

By An Observer

March 2, 2007 5:25 PM | Link to this

The question waw “Have YOU had any problems?” It is interesting to me that MOST of those that have NOT had a problem are male and most that have had a problem are female. No PC here just observing.

By lisa

March 2, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this

The lane is clearly marked. However, it does present a problem to the driver who is not paying attention. We all need to pay more attention to road markings especially if we are in an unfamiliar area.

By Josie

March 2, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

Yes, particularly:

*The HOV and “regular” entrances to 75 northbound from Northside Drive. It’s not clear until too late that one is HOV access only. And once you start that turn, you just have to GO — even though you’re startled to suddenly realize you’re in an HOV lane and you didn’t intend to be.

*The HOV exit from 75 southbound to Northside, and that lane of 75 that continues southbound. It makes no sense and I have often commented about that to friends as I’ve driven past it. I have ended up exiting in error there, myself. However, having lived in the area for years, I realized what I did immediately and knew to stop. An out-of-towner could easily get confused.

By alan

March 2, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

As a daily commuter, it is confusing especially at 65 + mph and I especially view it as a problem for visitors.

Improve the signage!!! As with most DOT decisions, there has to be a death to cause change.

By JT

March 2, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

Atlanta is the darkest metro city I have ever driven in. If they would use the streetlights again it would make a difference. Remember when the State and Fulton county couldn’t decide who would pay so they don’t use them anymore? All of Cobb County and Fulton on I-75 needs the lights back.

By Jody D

March 2, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

It is so sad that among the first comments are things like dj’s saying that if someone can’t figure it out, then they ought not to be driving. It’s the atlanta way, right dj? i’m caffeine-cranked, upwardly mobile and i’ll drive any speed i want over 80 any time any day in any lane, and people from out of state better get out of my way. While i don’t believe that another driver caused this - i’m with the GPS telling him to exit left too soon - i do think it’s appropriate and fitting that if such a thing had to happen, it would happen on our bloodbath freeway system here in the every days opening day metropolitan international city.

By daylight come

March 2, 2007 5:38 PM | Link to this

wayne, how nice that you expect everyone to be just like you and have such insight to everything and the way it really is and that you can say with certainty for everyone what is EXTREMELY evident …. may we all one day get the grace and mercy and insight that has been bestowed upon you. Or may we be graciously spared from that. See, it’s an individual thing - I’ll pass on your type mentality.

By edward

March 2, 2007 5:39 PM | Link to this

THE IDIOTS WHO DESIGNED THIS EXIT WITHOUT A STOP LIGHT OR SOME INDICATION THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE A TURN SHOULD ALL BE FIRED, I HOPE ALL OF THE FAMILIES FILE A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT SO THE EXIT WILL BE MODIFIED AND ACCIDENTS LIKE THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN, HOW IS A PERSON FROM ANOTHER STATE SUPPOSE TO KNOW YOUR ROAD SYSTEM WITH INADEQUATE ROAD SIGN INDICATIONS.

By Susan

March 2, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Everytime I head from Marietta to Macon to visit family, which is 4-5 times a year, as I come up on this exit, for just a split second or two, I am confused. For just a few seconds my brain tries to process the HOV markings and I wonder if the HOV goes to the left…then I realize, no, it continues straight. Despite making the Macon trip several times a year with family…it still throws me off a bit, and that is in broad daylight. If that can happen to me, having lived in Metro Atlanta for 20+ years, I can certainly see how it could happen to someone from out of town. I definitely feel the exit is confusing and a hazard. If something isn’t changed, this type of tragedy is bound to happen again.

By gib3

March 2, 2007 5:44 PM | Link to this

Tackling Atlanta’s highway signage is a challenge for the most seasoned driver and is a complete mismatch for a stranger who has not had enough sleep. In searching the various stories of the accident I read, buried in one of the accounts, that the bus had been driving all night when the accident happened. I am afraid what we will find from the NTSB accident investigation is a sleep deprived bus driver making a tragic miscalculation at 70 miles per hour. Why church groups, ball teams and others who travel by bus allow themselves to be driven all night by anyone is beyond comprehension.

By Susan

March 2, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this

Gib 3…from what I’ve read, the driver was “fresh”…he had only been behind the wheel for about an hour…so they don’t think he was sleep deprived.

By CD

March 2, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this

The exits and entrance ramps on this bridge are confusing. It’s sad that it may take this trajedy to make a change.

By former ATLer

March 2, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

I lived right off this exit for more than two years. Anyone who is saying it is not problematic is just trying to be difficult or has no empathy/sympathy for other people. It is an AWFUL setup. The highways in general in ATL are rotten. Then add in very, very poor driving and fast driving. I’ve never seen so many accidents or heard of so many people killed on the roads as I did when I lived there. I remember crying when the HERO workers kept getting hit and killed trying to help drivers because other drivers couldn’t take two minutes to slow down past a crash. I wish your great state well in fixing these issues. (ps on this note- if you stopped building prisons, there might actually have money for other things).

Anyone who is saying the driver did this on purpose, I feel very badly for you.

PlusSizeModel, your comment about god and Christian kids? Perhaps the lesson you’ll take from this is that God doesn’t love any one person—or any religion—over any other.

May all of the loved ones of all of these families find peace someday.

By wrenn

March 2, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

I think its really inapproiate for there to be a picture of the dead students laying under sheets on this website..how insensitive is that? Someone needs to take that down. How would you feel if that was your child- thats a picture no parent wants to see.

By Freak

March 2, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this

I’ll take a Whataburger with cheese, large fries and a Diet Coke….

By Freak

March 2, 2007 6:01 PM | Link to this

I’ll take a Whataburger with cheese, large fries and a Diet Coke….

By Me

March 2, 2007 6:02 PM | Link to this

A simple idea gone wrong. How many times do you see an exit on the left side of the highway (HOV or Normal) that exits to an immediate stop (light or sign). The answer is very rarely unless your on I-75 or I-85 in Atlanta.

Normally left hand exits are only used from one limited access highway to another limited access highway. It’s easy for us to blame the driver because we know about these exits and have seen them even if we don’t use them. I’ll bet they will find out this driver had never driven thru Atlanta before. If you’ve never encountered this design before it is Very Confusing.

By Freak

March 2, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this

I’ll take a Whataburger with cheese, large fries and a Diet Coke….

By R U Serious

March 2, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this

For those who say Atl doesn’t have a problem properly making their highways, enterances, and exits I ask: How do you explain the Police Officer killed driving the WRONG WAY down the downtown connector just hours before this horrible tragedy?

By freako

March 2, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this

I’ll take a Whataburger with cheese, large fries and a Diet Coke…

By Claude Pearson

March 2, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this

The AJC does not investigate bad road design by the D.O.T. Will this tragedy sufficently motivate the AJC to ask tough questions of the Georgia D.O.T. Is the A.J.C. afraid to probe the Gerogia D.O.T. because of some commercial ties? Atlanta deserves better journalism.

By daylight come

March 2, 2007 6:08 PM | Link to this

At least those of you travelling by high horse don’t have to worry about anything like this happening to you as you drive down the interstate.

By daylight come

March 2, 2007 6:11 PM | Link to this

Did the brakes fail?

By John

March 2, 2007 6:15 PM | Link to this

These comments prove 90% should NOT be driving motor vehicles.

If you are confused by driving, you should NOT be driving.

For your own safety, and the safety of the 10% of us that ARE qualified to drive, please STAY OUT OF THE CAR! If there’s no bus in your neighborhood, that’s your own fault.

If you’re not capable of driving 100+ MPH on an interstate highway, you shouldn’t be on it. It’s as simple as that.

I honestly hope you kill yourself in a single vehicle crash before you have the chance to kill me.

By gipper

March 2, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this

I moved here from L.A. about three years ago and the first thing I noticed was overall poor road engineering designed as compared. This could have been prevented with simple bumper strips. It’s as if the engineers planned a lot of the roadwork as they went. I think the designed is reponsible for these deaths.

By Shawn

March 2, 2007 6:26 PM | Link to this

I had to find a blog to weigh in on this because I am so sad about this bus crash. YES! The entire stretch through Atlanta is a nightmare. I know no one wants to hear this, but I am originally from California and I am constantly ranting about GA highways, bad design and not enough cops and the fact that we are now paying the price for all the uncontrolled growth and poor planning of the 90’s.

I am so p** it took this tragedy to bring it to a head. Maybe now that the entire WORLD is looking at Atlanta and analyzing our crappy highways with hopped up CNN graphics and Google Earth - things will change.

Oh yeah - I forgot ATL drivers are the worst, meanest, wannabee NASCAR drivers in the US. I don’t think that was a factor in this accident but it still p** me off!

By GaLiberal

March 2, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this

This is what happens when you put Republicans in charge of running the government. They are too concerned with cutting taxes and screwing over the metro area to spend money putting up decent signage. Even those of us that have lived here for several years get confused. There have been several wrong-way drivers off of Northside Drive. It’s too bad that six people had to die because GA voters are more concerned with how much they pay in taxes. I guess you really can put a dollar value on human life. When you vote Republican, you vote against your own best interests.

By Tim

March 2, 2007 6:28 PM | Link to this

Of course. It’s terribly flawed. Of course, those of us who’ve used it for years KNOW where and what it is. But, if you’ve never been here before and you’re in that left lane, it can come up on you fast. AND there was the incident of the wrong way driver last year.

How many off ramps do you see in Atlanta against the center median? It’s terrible that these kids had to die to get someone’s attention.

By BFTB

March 2, 2007 6:31 PM | Link to this

My heart goes out to the families of the deceased and all the others on the bus. This is a very tragic event. One thing that should be learned by everyone is that you should slow your speed if you are not familiar with an area, in this case an exit ramp. Here in Atlanta, we are too quick to through a fit when someone slows down to see where they are going. Everyone needs to slow as the exit, and be courteous to those that enter the ramps.

By Shawn

March 2, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

I am so upset about this I had to weigh in. I know nobody wants to hear this - bit I am also from California I loathe Atlanta highways and drivers. The people who are saying its not bad must be the same a-holes who crawl up my rear going 90 at night in the dark on 400 during the rain.

I am so angry that this bus accident will now finally shed a light on Georgia highways. If only because the whole WORLD is looking at Atlanta thanks to the computer models, and google earth maps on CNN.

So this native Californian says - we need more cops, more lights, better signs and we need to deal with these mickey mouse retro-fitted highways and need better drivers ed in the schools.

Hey - Georgians! Tail-gating - BAD. Turn signal - GOOD. Simple rule but it works.

By concerned

March 2, 2007 6:37 PM | Link to this

Most definately. I remember the first few times I drove through ATL four years ago when I moved here. Being unfamiliar with roads & the HOV system in ATL, plus the rate of speed on the highways, and difficulty reading signs at that speed (much less the difficulty seeing them when there are large vehicles/trucks blocking your view) made it very difficult & stressful to manuever. There is a HUGE difference in how you percieve whether there is a problem when you drive the route frequently vs. when you are driving it for the first time, particularly in the dark.

By Shawn

March 2, 2007 6:39 PM | Link to this

John - 100 mphs through Atlanta. Yeah, ok - that’s practical. Go back to playing your Playstation NASCAR 2007.

By Steve

March 2, 2007 6:40 PM | Link to this

Drew has it right. Rumble strips. Maybe flashing yellow lights. How much does that cost and what if it saves one more life after the tragic loss of six. Make it happen GDOT.

By John

March 2, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this

Hey Shawn, sorry you can’t drive.

By the way, I’m not a NASCAR fan.

It’s impractical to drive 100 MPH?

How is it that the Germans do that on a regular basis?

Is it because Germans are better [trained] drivers than the typical beer-bellied American?

Yes, that’s exactly what it is.

America and Americans suck, so do you, that’s just that.

By Dennis

March 2, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this

John: 100 mph on the interstate? Gee, I wish I was that important to be somewhere in a hurry. Also a tacky comment at the end of your “blog” - especially after what happened today.

By Pat

March 2, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this

Some of the comments here sicken me more than the feeling I got when I saw the name on the bus and realized the good chance I’d know the driver, the carrier, and friends of friends of the victims. I’ve watched it all day before I was alerted to this website of mostly horse-shirt human beings. I-75 is an interstate that runs through Bluffton and the Atlanta interchange is not consistent with anything I’ve seen in the north half of the country. Hell, I’d never heard of an HOV before today. Some of the postings here elude to gossip and speculation. Please taste, before you chew. You never know what you may have to eat yourself someday. And shame on McDonalds Restaurants, who let Mrs. Nemire go from her job recently. Her hardwork ethic and decade plus years of service proved to earn her a wage “too high” to keep. Had it not been for that, she’d probably just be getting time off to reorganize her life as a widow.
Bless them Lord, they are together still.

By Cindy

March 2, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this

I do not drive in the HOV lane for the simple fact that I’ve never been able to figure out how it works. It’s very dangerous and especially to those who are from smaller towns with one small freeway or none at all. Those who say it is easy is used to driving in city lanes. What about those who don’t drive on freeways at all? When I moved from Alaska, who doesn’t even have a freeway, I was aghast.

By Shawn

March 2, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this

John - Have you driven on the Autobahn? Its made of special material, it requires a special license with extra taxes to pay for the highway, they meticulously maintain the highway, and they don’t talk on cell phones or eat or drink or even listen to music when they are driving on the Autobahn. So - tell me how that would work in ATL.

By Mike

March 2, 2007 7:12 PM | Link to this

Cindy, and any who find it confusing.

It IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to fully understand your driving and where your driving every time you start a vehicle. Anything else is pure ignorance and neglect. If you are driving in a area you dont know, do some research. It appears you have access to the WORLD WIDE WEB so you could have easily educated yourself to what a HOV lane is and how it functions. Driving a vehicle is a big responsibility as we have seen what happens when driver error is involved. The DOT does a very good job given the budget etc for marking and maintaining roads in the GA area. This exit was one of the first I ever took in GA when moving here. It didnt take a rocket scientist to understand what the signs meant and where to go when following the signs.

PLUS, if you dont know what HOV is(how in 2007 is beyond me) then stay OUT OF THEM so they are of use to the people they are designed for(everyday commuters)

RIP to those who paid dearly for another’s mistake.

By Don

March 2, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this

Yes - It is very poorly designed. It should have been closed years ago. Not only for this accident but I would venture a guess that there is at least one drunk driver that makes the wrong turn comeing from the “Atlanta Ballet” that gets on the southbound lane of I-75 going northbound.

By John

March 2, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this

It would work in Atlanta by eliminating 90% of the drivers from at least driving on the interstates, and arresting and imprisoning anyone caught eating, talking on their cell phone, or anything else that distracts them from driving.

You see, this is the problem with “democracy”. We go down to the lowest common denominator, which in America, is pretty low. We end up having breakfast, putting on makeup, reading the newspaper, and chatting with friends on the phone, all while attempting to drive on a limited access highway at the absurdly low speed of 70 MPH.

By Ted Montgomery

March 2, 2007 7:19 PM | Link to this

From a Falcon season ticket holder that goes that way to the home games, yes its a big problem.

I also drove a charter bus for many many years and the way the HOV lane works when you get to that area is not the best. I can see and understand what and why it happen.

Hes probley been driving in the hov lane from where it starts back at cobb county, hes running the speed limit and simply just stayed in the lane thinking it would continue. When you drive that many hours you focus on the road alot and miss signs for different reasons, Traffic, Lights, many reasons and if you have never been in a HOV lane and trying to read all the signs in that area I could see where it has confused drivers.

Its really sad that this has to happen before its looked at.

By Shawn

March 2, 2007 7:21 PM | Link to this

I think highways are the ultimate case for making things user-friendly. And one of the functions of the HOV lane is to carry buses through ATL.

And since ATL is a main artery for visitors travelling to Florida, don’t we owe it to the interstate travelers to make sure our highways are USER FRIENDLY.

And don’t get me started on all the strip club signs on 85 and 75 on the way to Florida. Yeah - welcome to Georgia, yankee. Betcha couldn’t tell you’re in the bible belt!

By Ted

March 2, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

You can tell mike has a heart , you tell them mike…

What a jerk

By kitten

March 2, 2007 7:28 PM | Link to this

i live on the southside, so i’m not as familiar with the area. but i can pretty much guarantee that there will be some sort of lawsuit.

my heart goes out to the families.

By Gerry

March 2, 2007 7:32 PM | Link to this

I think the problem in Atlanta is that you folks down there are some of the worst drivers anywhere in the country. I’ve lived there, and I’ve seen accidents there that left me scratching my head. Here in the San Francisco Area…we have freeway offramps and interchanges that are far worse than ANYTHING in Atlanta, and you never see the kind or frequency of accidents you see there. The Georgia DMV could take a lesson from the California DMV when it comes to who gets drivers licenses and who doesn’t.

By Shawn

March 2, 2007 7:34 PM | Link to this

I repeat - here in the REAL world not your utopia version - we do have to deal with the lowest common denominator.

John - I am guessing you aren’t even from Atlanta - by your comments. This was a real tragedy that took place on a really bad, busy stretch of highway.

And I’ll also tell you a secret, I also lived in DC where I didn’t even have a car and only rode the metro. I am PRO public transportation.

Also - I actually do drive 90 miles an hour - when the traffic permits. But I DO NOT talk on the phone, I don’t tailgate - I speed to get away from other drivers. I don’t have issue with your bavarian vision of a perfect highway system. But its NOT pracitcal and in the meantime, ATL highways are terrifying! By the way, I have a teenage boy who plays baseball and rides a bus all over - I see his face in the boys who died and I am devastated and scared!

By CantBelieveIt

March 2, 2007 7:40 PM | Link to this

I am one of those people that agrees that this exit/entrance is hazardous. I know through personal experience that it is used for revenue purposes in this great city, though it may not have been built with that intention. I have lived here for almost 1 year and everyone I know always comments on how “Bama” the road systems are here. To people from out of state, the road sysems here just don’t make sense. As far as the driver being or not being confused about this being an exit. I have been in several other major cities where an HOV lane actually turns into more of an HOV bridge. It takes you to over the highway for a few minutes then eventually merges back onto it well before an exit; giving you AMPLE time to get off should you need to. So if the driver was confused, I can see why. I really don’t think attacking him personally is going to help anyone feel better. I was deeply saddened to hear of this tragedy this morning along with the other fatality on the connector and the victims of the recent tornadoes. However; the purpose of this blog opportunity was not to give your “Professional opinion” of what caused the crash, but to simply comment on if you thought this particular exit was a problem. Again I say YES.

By accountability

March 2, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this

I would be willing to bet that most of the confusion that a lot of you apparently have on the roads would be eliminated by a simple reduction to the speed limit. It is difficult to see and process road sign information when you are driving out of habit and at speed 20-30 mph above the posted speed limit.

Is this road design ideal? No. But this accident was readily avoidable.
We will never know what really happened, but I cannot fathom how all of the warnings failed to get the attention of the bus driver, not to mention the slope of the ramp that clearly suggests you are no longer on an interstate.

By B. Robinson

March 3, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

ABSOLUTELY!! The Northside Drive HOV lane exit is very confusing. From the existing signage one can clearly see where out-of-towners passing through Atlanta would think that they need to bear to the left onto the HOV exit ramp. In my opinion, the DOT has done a poor job in clearly designating the HOV left-hand exits.

By go

March 3, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

I guess, although the signs meet minimum legal requirements, and although the many (probably a significant fraction) of other highway exits are worse: 82 previous accidents at that exit (some fatal) and the fact that a safety should always be the first priority and the fact that many drivers, even ones, don’t think as fast as they get older, I think all that show that more and larger signs and blinking lights are needed at that exit.

By van

March 3, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

There is a very big problem. If you are not familiar with the area, and even if you are sometimes, it can be very confusing. This is NOT the first accident at this same spot. This is just the first bus to go over the side. There have been 82 other identical accidents because it is not clearly marked. It’s terriable that it had to take a bus goving over the side for the DOT to look and say there ‘might’ be a problem.

By Robyn

March 3, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this

Why wait for something tragic to happen and then correct the problem. This exit is a problem for people that are not familiar with this road and for people that are not from Georgia. I was confused once when I was traveling this road in the HOV lane. If I was not paying attention and aware that Atlanta has tricky roads and exits it would have been ugly. This is definitely a problem that needs to be addressed.

By Julie

March 3, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this

I hope the right people of GA gets sued to the highest limit! GA is too cheap to spend money where money is needed. This should have never happened. Tell those parents that GA OFFICIALS who are in the position to make those decisions on cost of signage, that their decisions were “right.”. I know that excit, it’s an accident waiting to happen, and it has, over and over and over again!

By Julie

March 3, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

I hope the right people of GA gets sued to the highest limit! GA is too cheap to spend money where money is needed. This should have never happened. Tell those parents that GA OFFICIALS who are in the position to make those decisions on cost of signage, that their decisions were “right.”. I know that excit, it’s an accident waiting to happen, and it has, over and over and over again!

By Brian Jones

March 3, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

First of all let me say to all those who have lost someone my thoughts and prayers are with you and your friends and families.With that said let me be a little insensitive i am not very familiar with that particular exit but after watching the video if someone doesnt know they are exiting the did not deserve to have a drivers lis. how come when something tragic happens we start pointing fingers looking for our incompetant government to spend more money on. it is called and accident because it is exactly that the driver made a mistake and sadly people were killed. there are stop sign signs on the ramp. as far as the 82 other accidents i would be willing to bet they were caused by people on cell phones. the fact is it is to easy to get a drivers lis in ga and some people just dont need to be driving like you damn 70 yr olders who go 45 on the interstate get these old ass people off the road and also young hs kids who are killing themselves and other people thank you and will enjoy hearing people get mad at my post

By smitty

March 3, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

just watch the video of the exit ramp on this story….the sign is absolutely the problem……..the sign is a picture of the HOV symbol and in small letters it reads Northside drive and just below that it reads Buses/Carpools…..the HOV symbol is the most prominent feature of the sign, its not a true yellow, green or otherwise marked exit sign…. and traveling 60 mph at 5:30 in the morning its easily understandable that someone not familiar with atlanta roadways would mistake the ramp for a continuation of the HOV lane….add in a brief millisecond of inattention/distraction and you’ve got a disaster……and it’s obvious from reading the blogs that even people familiar with atlanta have trouble in that area, even in daylight…….

By Brian Jones

March 3, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

ok I finished my other post and john and julies post both caught my eye first of all i agree with some of johns post but guess what we are not a democracy we are a democatic republic. Julie let me first start by saying you are more than likely a bed wetting liberal and it is very obvious you are a complete head case. The right people in ga get sued were the right people in ga driving that bus noooooo. quit putting blame on others it was the drivers mistake i mean for god sakes the damn ramp is elevated not like u just stay on a level plane. I will say it agian if you think that exit is unsafe dont use it and even better get off the damn roads and use marta its smarta.

By annie

March 3, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

I say away for the news with what happen yesterday so i was not clear and when i see the video i can see how it happen and the confussion because everyone if not from here and even the folks that live here have problems with this exit….just something have to and need to be done…now is a shame all these people had to lose the lives

By Brian Jones

March 3, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

Sorry had to post after i read GAliberal’s post. Let me start by saying i did not vote for sonny i voted for garret michael hayes who more of us should have voted for. But to blame this on the Ga voters jst shows how damn stupid left wingers are let me guess if jim martin was governer this would have never happened because he would have had a plan like all these other dumb ass liberals. Once agian my point is validated liberals never take the blame for anything it is always someone elses false point the finger at someone else thats always easy. About the taxes how about lets adopt the fair tax so i can quit supporting sorry ass people like yourself who are to lazy to work or to stupid to figure out capitalism. here is an analogy of a democrate I just p** my pants but it wasnt my fault it was that damn dasani water i drank maybe i can find a way to sue coke for there water making me p** myself.

By Shaun

March 3, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

This is clearly a problem: as soon as I heard the news about the brake lights not being on, I knew that the driver thought he was still on the highway. Let me tell you, this exit is confusing to native Atlantans, imagine what it must look like to someone driving from Ohio early in the morning. As it is an exit that goes up in the middle of the north and southbound lanes, it can easily be mistaken for a highway overpass. It is one of the few exits that are designed that way in Atlanta and, in this case, I believe that the bad design has directly led to this tragedy.

By Jim Wood

March 3, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

I suspect that the driver was simply anticipating the lane shift that is 1/2 mile further South. HOV 75-S and HOV 85-N separate to the left from the four or five conventional lanes. The driver could have easily been distracted by something in the main lanes, thought he’d nearly missed the lane shift and became only more confused by the unfamiliar ramp. There’s also no indication that a full stop may be required in a few hundred yards.

By kenny87

March 3, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Like everything else in Atlanta, the city is too cheap or stupid to adequately mark the poorly designed exit with a few inexpensive signs to clear up any confusion. The incompetence of idiots running the governments in Atlanta and Georgia never cease to amaze me.

By Jim

March 3, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Obviously it was confusing to him. If some new, more clear, signage would keep just one other person from being “confused” and getting in an accident, it would be worth it.

By Kinpa

March 3, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

I think alot of people go on auto-pilot upon entering the HOV lane. Many times drivers in it are moving lower than several of the general use lanes to the right. I can see how someone driving in this mind-set could make that mistake however it takes some extreme inattention to then miss the stop ahead signs (both pavement and to the sides of the road) the stop signs and the rest of the lane markings and leave no sign of braking. Even if a driver is “fresh” at 4:30am when beginning a drive, it’s still an early hour and quite easy to zone out.

This is not to say that a better approach to signing and design of the ramp aren’t in order. In part what signing and road design do to some degree is compensate for potential and actual driver inadequacy. If tens of thousands of vehicles successfully navigate the area and one does not, then there may still be room for improvement.

By Serafino

March 3, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

It is not confusing. Watch the video on the AJC site. Not only did this driver ignore the signs that warned him he was on an exit, he ignored a stop sign and a 5-lane cross street. Jeez, it is the driver’s fault. Plain and simple. Blaming the state or the DOT or the Easter Bunny is just a blatant sign of a complete lack of intelligence.

By Barbara

March 3, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

Last weekend my husband and I were visiting in Atlanta and were on Northside Drive at the entrance HOV ramp to I-75 N. This is located next to the HOV exit ramp for I-75 S. I commented about how confusing the signs were. The wrong way sign to keep drivers from going onto the exit ramp is located in the middle of the off and on HOV ramps. You have to quickly look to your right to see if there is one there and then determine that you are going the proper way. I can see where someone could easily mistake the HOV off ramp into a continuation of I-75 S. We lived in Atlanta from 1971-1994, so it’s not like we aren’t familiar with I-75 N. This is an extremely dangerous area, especially if you don’t drive it frequently.

By ciyana

March 3, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

The signs are poor and confusing The big hov sign with the direction arrow show that you should keep to your left.. IT even says buses!!!! THIS is very confusing and especially so for out of state drivers where hov lanes sometimes keep away from the rest of the lanes… DOT ..please review these signs.. or are you waiting for another accident!!!!!! BY the way there is another confusing one after CHESIRE bridge on I85 south

By JC

March 3, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

I do not live in ATL - but know this exit and the city very well. HOV Exit? An exit is an exit is an exit - when I saw that video going up the ramp and I see the HOV emblem on the road and on the sign - I’m assuming I’m in an HOV lane. Especially if I am from a state where the exits are all on the right side of the road! And especially if it’s 5am and I’m reaching to turn down a heater, etc. Another example of why NOBODY likes to drive in Atlanta traffic. Go buy a gallon of paint and paint EXIT in big letters going up the ramp and STOP at the top - like normal cities do.

By Beth

March 3, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

I’m still wondering why the bus was in the HOV lane in the first place — there is no traffic on 75 at that time of morning. The driver would have had to move over several lanes to continue south on I-75, about a mile down the road.

There’s no need to be in the HOV lane when the highway is empty and you’re going to have to get in the right three lanes a mile down the road, anyway. Yeah, you guys who think he mixed up his exits are probably right, otherwise there’s just no rationale.

Moral of the story: Stay out of the HOV lane, unless you absolutely need to be in it.

As an aside, the only problem I have with Atlanta-area roads are the drivers on it. I’ve lived elsewhere, and I will grant you that Atlanta can get a little tricky at certain bits, but, you know what? All that wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t for the lousy drivers. Quit being so rude, aggressive, and hang up and drive, kthnx.

I’m really sorry about the accident — it’s always regrettable when folks lose their lives in senseless tragedies as these. Hopefully, though, this incident will make us all a bit more mindful of our own mortality, fully cognizant that a lapse or error in judgment on our parts could lead to the untimely demise of ourselves or innocent bystanders.

Drive safe, Atlanta.

By Ken K

March 3, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

I have worried about this exit for years. If you watch the video you can see that the “diamond” markings that designate an HOV lane continue to appear once you are on the exit ramp. This seems to signify that the ramp is a normal part of the HOV lane. The exit sign on the right is not particularly clear, and if you are driving a heavy vehicle such as a truck or a bus and a re going at a regular highway cruising speed, by the time you see the stop sign at the top of the ramp there is no way to stop before the intersection, inviting an accident with cross trafic, or possibly even going over the side, as the bus did. Left hand exits are always potentially treacherous as we are just not programmed to think that they will appear there. This is compounded by the HOV lane structure, as it can lead to even more confusion. Exits such as these need more urgent, in your face signage - possibly in orange or red, and should start in such a way well before the exit occurs. Let’s not use the excuse that “the signage was within normal guidelines”, let’s honor those who have suffered in this horrible tradegy by establishing new standards of safety.

By Dan

March 3, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

In the dark everything is just less clear, so why not just place a red blinking light? You see that on more places when you approach a stop sign. Would of course not have helped if the driver did fall asleep.

By CJ

March 3, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

75-South at that point is NOT a problem for those drivers that are use to it. However, if you are not familar with Atlanta’s 75 South or North it can be confusing. Further down 75-South, near the Famers Market exit when trying to get on from I-285 it can be a headache for some drivers. But, back up where that accident happened, the State can place more flashin lights to guide our guests thru our city with comfort.

By LaurieG

March 3, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

The usability community has picked up on the discussion. This was part of a post I added to our online discussion in that community yesterday:

My observations - That section of I-75 meanders through residential and in-town neighborhoods. There are trees on either side of the road, and it’s definitely an older section of freeway. Exits are a bit closer together, maybe making it difficult to give enough time for HOV lanes to exit and move to the right across the 3 or 4 lanes that are there in time. It’s the last exit on I-75 before 75 & 85 merge.

This is THE major artery from the NW side of Atlanta into downtown. Without an HOV lane, the commute would be that much more difficult. A few miles further south, the HOV lane takes a slightly different route than the through traffic/non-HOV traffic does when I-75 joins with I-85 through the heart of Midtown Atlanta. Sometime between the Northside Drive interchange and the I-85 interchange, the HOV lane even splits into two lanes to accomodate northbound and southbound I-85 drivers. In other words, that HOV lane has a number of quirks in a short period of time.

When you combine the two problems (limited real estate causing short exit times for required HOV lanes to support an unbelievable number of cars per day), I can see why the highway designers did what they did at that exit, comments about standards notwithstanding. The conclusion I had come to the first time I used that exit was that it was an afterthought - the designers having done what they could to fit in an exit for the HOV drivers.

Because the road meanders, it would be easy to be cruising along in the HOV lane, and suddenly find yourself going in a slightly different direction from the rest of the traffic and going up a fairly steep hill (up the exit ramp). You might not have questioned anything a few moments before when the HOV lane splits into a second lane (the through and exit lanes), because you might vaguely remember that this happens sometime prior to the I-85 interchange…You might also not have any initial concern because you might remember at some point, the HOV lane splits off from the main traffic lanes at I-85. Deadly assumptions, indeed, but I could see how it could happen.

Here’s a google satellite view of that interchange: http://tinyurl.com/2jtefp - if you toggle on the hybrid view, you can see the HOV lanes marked.

By MrHughes

March 3, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

As someone who drives down the HOV lane at that point everyday I have to say that the design of the ramp is not confusing. It’s called paying attention… He’s a professional driver. The fault of his accident is his alone and not the GDOT, the DOT’s engineer, or the maker of that bus. They make road signs understandable for people who are functionally illiterate. That basically means people with about a 2nd grade education. If you can’t understand them, slow down, get off the phone, stop messing with the radio, putting on makeup, reading the paper, watching dvds, and screaming at your bratty rug rats. Above all, please do those of us travelling on these dangerous streets a favor and take the bus down to the DMV to pick up a copy of your drivers manual while you are at it. The markings on the ground there make it clear it’s an exit. I’m sick of people blaming everyone else but the person responsible for this tragedy. The bus exited the HOV lane/highway and proceeded up an exit ramp without slowing down. No brainer…

By Vick

March 3, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

The Atlanta Police Dept knows everything about that exit is confusing so they use it as a trap to catch people who are confused that take the exit ETC. They have cop car after cop car waiting to pull people over there. Its pretty crappy that instead of fixing the confusion they still write tickets.

By Erica

March 3, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

Once again, let’s do the American tradition and pass the blame. How many signs do you need?? The lane is clearly marked HOV with lines and lettering reading HOV- LANE on the road. There are signs above the lane indicating where the exits are and that they are approaching. To get onto the HOV exit ramp to Northside Drive a driver has to veer to the left. Clearly the bus driver was not paying attention. Because the driver died in the accident, and can not be publicly blamed, for that would be insensitive, we have a game of “Let’s Find Someone to Blame”. It can’t be the driver, so that leaves the people who designed the on and off ramps. So, here we go again, with blaming anyone but the person who was driving the vehicle and the company who owned the bus and employed the driver. What a great way for an insurance company to avoid paying any damages for driver negligence to the victim’s families. Instead, let’s blame the state for the design of the Northside-Drive exit and on ramps so that the state of Georgia will have to pay out any potential lawsuit. This type of accident has only occurred once and once is not a clear sign of a design problem. Check the amount of time the driver was piloting the bus and if in fact the driver was alert. Age of the driver and health should be a factor. A drunk driver going the wrong way down the interstate does not deem the design a problem, the drunk driver was the problem. People get on the interstate and drive the wrong way on 85, 20, 400 etc. Northside Drive is what caused this accident or any other accident that occurred on the stretch of highway. The drivers are what caused the accidents.. All you whiners out there need to take responsibility for any mistake you make while driving on and off any interstate ramp. Prepare for getting on and off the interstate by being in the correct lane. If a driver is not familiar with a cities highway system, look for signs that clearly indicate where you are going. For those who use the Northside-Drive exit frequently and still get confused, or blame a speed trap, please put away the cell phone, food, make-up or whatever and watch where you are going! I hope you only made your driving error once and learned where the correct exit ramps and on ramps for your driving requirement are so that you do not make the same error in the future. Oh, and to the AJC, how insensitive to post pictures of the ones who died on the scene laying on the median with sheets over their bodies. These pictures should be removed from your web-sight. Let the game begin…

By Greg

March 3, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

Looking at the lane markings, it looks obvious this is an exit, however, I will say I do believe that the overhead exit sign should be changed.

Given that it is an exit, it should be a green guide sign, with the “Northside Dr” lettering in mixed case. The diamond HOV symbol should appear above or below the green exit sign, in black on white lettering. I can picture someone driving at high speeds not noticing the distinctive sign, presumably thinking it’s the same “this is the HOV lane” sign they’ve been seeing for the past several miles.

By DOT

March 3, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

Reading the sign left to right, and then considering that it happened at 4AM and driving at interstate speeds, I understand how the driver mistakenly exited. I know DOT will only give a raise to the people who designed this flawed system. Unfortunately, these same DOT people will have to carry these six tragic deaths to the end of their own lives.

By Mike

March 3, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

Phyllis…

Maybe we dont need the whole world or so many foreign drivers from other countries making our city highways a danger zone for the rest of us. Its the out of staters and transplants that drive the insane way that they do causing this confusion in the first place.

By Richard

March 3, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

I don’t see how it can be labeled confusing or people can think it is part of the continuing highway lane when an “EXIT” and “arrow” sign are BETWEEN the ramp and the actual HOV lane. If you see an “EXIT” and “arrow” to the right of the highway, do you always go down that exit ramp thinking it is part of the continuing lane? No. Why is your left side so confusing when the right side is not. (By the way, I am right-handed, so its not that.) I have passed by and/or used the ramp multiple times in the 8 years I have lived in the Atlanta area; its never been confusing. However, most drivers, obviously from the massive swerving occurring at most exists, don’t read signs early nor heed them. If drivers were PAYING ATTENTION TO DRIVING and reading all signs, fewer accidents would occur.

By Pete

March 3, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

Sure, it’s marked……. and has been quite a while. But this driver was a 1st timer, just passing thru…… we everyday commuters have the advantage of being familiar with it……I remember when I used it the first time, and it did seem a bit out of the ordinary, (it IS still out of the ordinary)only because interstate exits “ordinarily” are on the right side of the interstate. Does having two exits here truly make a difference in moving our volume of traffic more efficiently? At the price of six lives, I’d say it’s a steep price to pay, just to have a smoother flow of traffic. If it were your child being buried next week, would you feel differently? Let’s close that exit path. The next life saved just might be closer to home……………..

By Don

March 3, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

The HOV diamond is painted on the pavement in the exit lane. This is likely to give the impression that the HOV lane continues up the ramp. In driving the route last night after dark in heavy, fast-paced traffic, the split of the exit lane off the HOV lane is confusing and not adequately marked. Again…both lanes are marked with HOV diamonds…leading one to think either lane is a thorough lane.

By Richard

March 3, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Erica’s posting nearly says it all. Perfect! (By Erica, March 3, 2007 4:12 PM)

I would add, however, that the presence of a traffic signal/signage at the top of the ramp should also make someone take notice of a ramp and cross-street.

By Richard

March 3, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this

Erica’s posting nearly says it all. Perfect! (By Erica, March 3, 2007 4:12 PM)

I would add, however, that the presence of a traffic stop sign and turn lane markings on the ramp should also make someone take notice of a ramp and cross-street vs. being on an interstate highway.

By Melissa

March 3, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

I lived in Atlanta all of my life until 1996 when I moved to Columbus. From time to time I still visit Atlanta and I don’t see how anyone has time to look at signs, especially at night, when someone behind you trying to go 90+ mph is riding your bumper. Also, when you find yourself in the wrong lane, no one will let you move over so you’re stuck. I am not a slow driver either; but, I am sick and tired of all the NASCAR wanabees driving at reckless speeds in Atlanta and cutting in front of me.

By Mark

March 3, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

I don’t mean to sound cruel, but this exit didn’t cause the bus wreck. Maybe speed, and maybe a driver who either fell asleep at the wheel or was lulled into a state of inadequate alertness to be driving…that caused this accident.

By Cary

March 3, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

There is an I-75 South sign a few hundred yards before the Northside exit, and it is posted over the far left lane of the interstate. I suspect that the driver saw this sign and assumed that it directed him to bear left at the ramp to stay on I-75.

By Tommie Cato

March 3, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

I’m not form the area but watching you video feed of the exit I think I would be confused a little at night maybe some rumble strips on the ramp base would be a cost effective measure. Left exits are rare and should be more than just minimally marked.

By Redwing

March 3, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

I have driven from Tennessee down this highway many times. There is some uncertainty at this exit. However, by keeping your wits about you, you should not have a problem. Even if you get off there by mistake, the stops signs should cause you to hit your brakes. I cannot understand why the driver did not at least slow down. Coule he have had a heart attack?

By Jerry

March 3, 2007 5:08 PM | Link to this

No amount of signs,lights,or any other saftey devices are going to make up for human error.

By MrHughes

March 3, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

If he had a heart attack, then you know it’s the exit ramps fault. Diamonds painted on asphalt induce heart attacks…

GDOT cha ching money money mooooneeee

By Scott

March 3, 2007 5:14 PM | Link to this

I’m honestly shocked/surprised that an accident of this magnitude hasn’t happened before now in this place. Everyone will be quick to point the finger of blame at the driver of the bus, but I feel that DOT should shoulder their share of the blame too.

By Mike

March 3, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

Again… it all goes to show that weve let too many transplants come here and allow things to spiral out of control. This is what we get for allowing this gargabe. Our town has become a mini New York City and Its embarassing. And for ya’ll who are from out of state.. if you dont like our roads theres a simple solution… dont come here then!!!

By Harold

March 3, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

I am not familiar with the initials HOV. What does that mean if I get the chance to visit Atlanta?

By Harold

March 3, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

I am not familiar with the initials HOV. What does that mean if I get the chance to visit Atlanta?

By Jerry

March 3, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

A good question that should be included on drivers examinatioms nation wide (it means High Occupancy Vechiles) i hope you learn it before your atlanta visit.

By JC

March 3, 2007 6:04 PM | Link to this

Sad. Sad that people are dead and sad that people in ATL don’t understand the problem. Drive in other cities. I have driven all over and that LOOKS like an HOV lane - diamond in the center, and elevated as they are in most major cities. At 5am with a car or distraction on the right, you look down and see the diamond HOV in your lane going up the ramp as you have millions of other times - you glance at an oil guage giving you a problem and look up to see a fricken wall at 60 mph.

Mike - we do stay away. In large numbers - for good reason. If you live there you ARE familiar with the streets, but to not have your streets so that there IS NO QUESTION at 60 mph, is negligent, irresponsible, and possibly criminal.

The fact that there are 300 posts debating this, perhaps may be answer in itself. At 60 mph (which this video post is not) there should be NO QUESTION that you are on an exit.

Buzz strips, EXIT painted and HOV diamond signs and paint in the EXIT Lane, along with a flashing red light should all be installed.

If it was your kid on that baseball team, it would be exactly what you would want. Next time - it may just your kid.

By Bill Howard

March 3, 2007 6:34 PM | Link to this

This Missourian sent in a Vent a few years ago about the exit signs on I75 in your fair city. I took that same exit by mistake but, lucky, my wife and I spotted our error. Also driving westbound on I285 looking for the I75 north exit is also little confusing, why not have a sign there saying “to Chattanooga”. Once the correct exit is taken more confusion awaits where I75N and I85 north splits. Took that wrong turn, thanks to OnSTAR I got directed back to I75 north.

Actually Ray Charles probably could have designed those exits and signs as well as was done by sighted experts.

By fbluu

March 3, 2007 6:34 PM | Link to this

Yes its a problem because the sign under the exit sign states Buses and carpools only. He could have easily thought that was the way to go.

By Lynette

March 3, 2007 6:40 PM | Link to this

YES, this exit is a terrible problem. I live here but I’m from Chicago. It’s confusing to have this exit on the left. I’ve never seen anything like it. When I heard about this, I knew exactly what happened! If you’re not familiar with Atlanta it’s VERY CONFUSING. My prayers go out to everyone involved.

By David

March 3, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

This is the only exit like it from Ohio to Tampa.I work off this exit and know everyone who comes in gets confused coming on and off the exit. THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS THIS.They never did anything to make the signs any clearer, instead decided to make $ off it by making it a police trap. 6 deaths and numberous accidents later someone needs to take accountability. Follow the money! I don’t know where it goes, I’d like to see ajc reporters find out!

By Michael

March 3, 2007 6:44 PM | Link to this

Atlanta roads have a habit of becoming “left turn only” or “right turn only” well after you have committed to the lane you’re and then cannot get over. I am not familiar with this particular exit but from the above comments it appears to be the same way. I tell folks that to drive around Atlanta exit and on ramps you had better know where you are going before you get to the ramp because they are confusing.

I come from a region where we had cloverleaf ramps so most everything entered on the right. Then there was the Springfield/Tysons Corner area of I95 that was basically a death trap with crisscrossing lanes and hi speeds, like Ga 316 at 85 North.

By techfan

March 3, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this

The problem in my opinion is the exits onto 75 North & South from Northside drive.

Exit to 75North: The HOV exit and regular exit is confusing and on opposite sides. On top of that, the HOV exit is right next to the HOV onramp - so before you know it your travelling against southbound traffic.

Exit to 75South: The merger dumps you so far down that you have no time to merge almost 3 lanes to the left if you need to join 85North. Good luck if there is traffic.

I go to Tech, but quite frankly I think the civil engineers of the 70s and 80s were smoking crack. Hence why so many interchanges are being corrected today(i.e. 316& I85)

By Jill

March 3, 2007 6:56 PM | Link to this

No. Pay attention when you drive. That’s it.

By ChrisM

March 3, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this

The exit is definitely a problem. Coming south, it’s the first exit to the left, so an out-of-towner might not realize that it’s even possible to exit there. Yes, there are signs, but they are much smaller than the Big Green Signs that mark regular exits. There are no good alternatives to that left exit, but certainly Atlanta highway planners should look into improving clarity at the exit; you in-towners that are contending that the signs are adequate have clearly forgotten what it was like the first time you hit the Atlanta freeways.

By Hector

March 3, 2007 7:26 PM | Link to this

Bad design! The exit ramp bigest problem is that the south exiting drivers must compete with the drivers on Northside Dr the drivers heading north turning left in front of them going into the HOV north bound lanes. SOLTUION! Close the HOV entrance and exit and put a light on the regular southbound exit ramp at northside Dr. coordinating with the light at the north bound exit and entrance. DOT should admit the mistake, swallow its pride and make the change.

By james

March 3, 2007 7:28 PM | Link to this

Plain and simple, people , it was just an accident. Why, in our society, must we have someone or some agency to blame? That really gets me. Some things, inexplicably, just tragically happen.

By budman

March 3, 2007 7:28 PM | Link to this

I didn’t even want to read the other bloggers to write about engineering on that exit entrance ramp.That caused those poor boys deaths. Literally hundreds of lives were changed forever and ever on a cold morning in Atlanta…by inaction of a known traffic engineering snafu of design. Yes!!! I think the driver was not paying attention or never driven through Atlanta or what ever…but something!!! started a sequence of events that leads to fatal accidents. This intersection to North side Dr> gave signs of problems over a decade ago..more are dead and wasted because of attention to detail…Budman

By Ruben

March 3, 2007 7:35 PM | Link to this

Assuming that the exit sign on I-75 is not clear enough and you suddenly find yourself on the exit ramp…how can you not see those warning signs on both sides of the ramp alerting you of the Stop sign ahead? And what about the left and right turn signs on the pavement at the end of the ramp? I definitively think this caused was human error.

By Joe B

March 3, 2007 7:38 PM | Link to this

yes the exit is a problem. exiting to the left is unexpected. the driver probably thought he was continuing in the hov lane. if the exit remain as it is, there will be a similar incident.

By Hank

March 3, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this

The exit is not the issue. The driver had taken over an hour earlier so he was fresh. It is 4:30am in Atlanta on I-75 so it is not like they are people everywhere. He should have just been driving in a regular lane, guys. There is no need for him to even be in the HOV lane with traffic like it is at 4:30am in the morning. Think about that. It is driver error sad to say.

By Ann

March 3, 2007 8:07 PM | Link to this

I am from Ohio. We do not have HOV lanes. What does HOV stand for?

After watching the video of the exit I can see how the bus driver made a mistake. The signs are hard to read in th e daylight. I’d like to see a video of that ramp at 5:30 AM, starting from a mile away.

God bless the Bluffton baseball families.

By JC

March 3, 2007 8:16 PM | Link to this

“(AP) Investigators said the driver involved in Friday’s deadly bus crash in Georgia apparently mistook an exit ramp for a lane.”

Just as I would have - just as most of you have already.

If I was a lawyer I would take this pro bono and sue the snot out of the G-DOT.

While I was at it, unless the police have proof that they have concluded each day of heavy ticket writing with a letter to the DOT about how dangerous this areas is, I would nail them as well. They are supposed to be there to serve and protect. Instead they have sat at the top of this hill and written tickets for the last 10 years to every poor soul that has made this mistake.

It’s government gone bad. A well known hazzard and nothing done for years. And Stephen Henry with the DOT can honestly stand there and defend this?? Absurd.

FWIW - Buses usually always take the HOV lane through cities, regardless of the time of day. It’s what the HOV lane was designed for - and his right as a driver to do.

By mark

March 3, 2007 8:45 PM | Link to this

Anyone who lives in Atlanta knows this exit is poorly designed. The exist should be shut down and the DOT should work to correct the problem. A sad outcome to an engineering problem.

By DOT

March 3, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this

Certainly, my condolences go out to the families of the people killed in this accident.

Does anyone know how this fairly unique exit originated? Perhaps it was originally suggested to GDOT by a contractor with the resources to build it this way. It is certainly not your standard interstate exit.

Also, I wonder how many times people have gotten on (or almost gotten on) the I75 Northbound lanes while traveling Northbound by going down the wrong ramp here. Does that make sense?

If you have not watched the video feed yet, I encourage you to try it and see what you think.

By M. A.

March 3, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this

This lane is ABSOLUTELY confusing for anyone who doesn’t regularly drive this route. The diamonds and HOV indicators continuing up the ramp make it appear to be an HOV travelling lane. The addition of a surface texture like those used on highway shoulders would definitely alert drivers at all times of day that they are no longer in a travel lane and need to slow down. To Stephen Henry and GA DOT, don’t make excuses, fix the problem before another person dies as a result.

By Ronnie

March 3, 2007 8:58 PM | Link to this

Yes, the exit is the problem. There should be consistency amoung exits throughout the country on interstate highways. At interstate speeds it clearly looks like an extension of the HOV lane. HOV lanes were added after most of the highways were built with many unusual entances and exits.

For those who drive that area every day, it becomes normal and no doubt convenient to many, but for the poor soul who is unfamiliar with it, it is a tradegy waiting to happen - and it did.

By Carol

March 3, 2007 9:28 PM | Link to this

Yes, this is a dangerous exit ramp. Atlanta continues to have “egg on its face” since the ‘96 Olympics, and the beat goes on. The ramp should be closed, and the NTSB should do a study on left-hand exits in general to avoid senseless accidents in the future. I shudder to think how we look as a city to the rest of the country.

By Rae

March 3, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this

I am really sad about this, and can’t believe some of the exceedingly harsh and crude comments. The question for the blog is: have YOU had problems, not: can you fix the cause even before investigators have all of the evidence. BTW, I’ve driven in cities all across the states, & taken left-hand HOV exits in other cities. This exit is poor: the diamond on the exit lane, the small print, the phrase “buses and carpools” right at the exit…all this is not helpful. Some things still don’t make sense. So what caused the accident? I will wait to hear the report before passing judgement. And have compassion for all involved. God comfort them.

By Barbara

March 3, 2007 9:38 PM | Link to this

Absolutely - the ramp is extremely confusing to someone who doesn’t drive this stretch of 75 on a regular basis and especially to an out-of-town driver. That bus driver probably thought that the HOV lane was elevated like they are in other cities, it was an unfortunate mistake. However, I feel the DOT is to blame, just because the ramp meets federal requirements, it is still confusing!!

By Radar Love

March 3, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this

Anytime you drive through an unfamiliar major city, hold on to your hat! Man, I’ve had some hair-raising experiences in New Orleans, Houston, Dallas - Ft. Worth, to name three.

Driving through Atlanta is especially trecherous. There is never any law enforcement! People drive all over the lanes, speed like hell, tailgate like their time is more important than your LIFE. And they get away with it because there is almost zero police presence.

The signage is usually ridiculously lacking. It seems the roads are designed to be navigated by those who already know where they’re going. God help those that don’t.

I would like to see the Georgia State Patrol function like the California Highway Patrol. Task them to control the freeways. As for the signage, fire whoever is responsible for the current mess, and hire someone that knows what they’re doing.

By Thomas Wilson

March 3, 2007 10:39 PM | Link to this

I think the bus driver thought he was at the I-75/I-85 merge where the HOV separates to the left and then rejoins the main road. Someone not familiar with the two exits could easily have mistaken the Northside left exit for the tricky and unusual left routing for the HOV lane which is only half a mile down the road.

By Joe

March 3, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this

As tragic as this event is, we shouldn’t try to place the blame on the ramp design, the DOT, or any other possible culprits. If the driver of the bus had been alert and paying attention to what he was doing, there is absolutely no way this accident could have happened. That HOV exit is well-marked…how many signs does it need in order to catch the attention of motorists? In addition to the exit signage, there are the signs and road markings indicating the upcoming stop at the end of the ramp. I’m sorry for the victims and their families and friends, but the media is simply stirring up trouble as usual…and it’s playing on the emotions of the public. This is a horrible accident that could have been avoided - not with extra markings or signage - but with more alert and attentive driving.

By LuAnn

March 4, 2007 12:25 AM | Link to this

I’m from Ohio, a few minutes from Bluffton. I’ve also been to Atlanta dozens of times. The highways there are no more confusing than the highways in Ohio or in any other large city in any state. I’m trying to figure out how a driver does not realize he is driving uphill. I’m trying to figure out how he does not realize the multi-lane highway he was on a moment ago is now one lane. I’ve been lost in about every city I’ve ever driven in, but when I’m unsure, I slow down. I want to believe this was just bad luck, bad timing, something other than driver error, but the more I read, the more I think it’s the latter.

By Jay

March 4, 2007 1:21 AM | Link to this

Let’s not forget that the night before we had terrible weather. The driver was probably driving all night long, unfamiliar with local driving conditions, etc. I’ve read where an investigator stated that the driver hadn’t realized he had veered off the interstate. This has to be the case since an eyewitness stated that no brakes were applied and the bus was still going the same speed limit and showed no signs of slowing down. I think the whole configuration is horrible. They should shut it down.

By sam

March 4, 2007 1:25 AM | Link to this

First of all let’s not forget the fact that the driver was from out of town. He wasn’t familiar with Atlanta as all the locals are, not familiar with HOV lanes I suspect and not familiar with the intricacies of sign placements, road markings, and what have you at that particular spot. I can’t begin to imagine the horror he must have felt when, not being familiar with the area, he looked ahead to realize the interstate was gone! Such an awful, awful experience for everyone involved.

By John

March 4, 2007 1:42 AM | Link to this

If G-DOT Director of Operations Stephen Henry feels he’s done more that enough, he should move his desk to the sidewalk of Northside Drive opposite his stop sign.

I see a large HOV symbol on a sign with an arrow reading “Buses/Car Pools Only” and I see a large HOV diamond on a road that looks like it is going up an elevated HOV lane (as they do in most cities).

You check your gages, adjust the heater and look up to see that you are blasting through a stop sign at 60 mph headed for a concrete wall. Welcome to Atlanta.

At 60 mph you should not have confusion. If there is confusion, then no Mr. Henry, you haven’t done enough.

Clear EXIT signs, a flashing red light that says stop ahead (more that 200 feet from where you are going to stop!!), speed limit signs on the ramp, buzz strips at the start of the exit indicating you have left the travel lane, and no HOV road markings on an exit ramp are all indications you have done enough.

His comment that he feels he has done enough is the direct problem.

By H

March 4, 2007 2:56 AM | Link to this

DITTO!!!

By Robert

March 4, 2007 6:50 AM | Link to this

If anything, this exit could use a ‘lane ends/no return access’ sign. It is likely the driver exited erroneously and thought he could ‘get back on’ the other side…except there was no other side. True, this is the driver’s fault, he should have seen the multiple stop signs. But if we can add safety redundancy by adding an additional sign, let’s do it.

By Robert

March 4, 2007 6:55 AM | Link to this

One comment to those complaining about a ‘police trap’: those entering the wrong way would be going in the OPPOSITE direction that the bus went, so the signage in the opposite direction is irrelevant to the bus crash (although relevant to a ‘wrong-way driver’ story).

By Robert

March 4, 2007 7:03 AM | Link to this

Tommy, don’t tell me about Boston, where the Big-Dig contractors GLUED 3-ton concrete slabs to the ceiling (and which collapsed last year, killing a motorist, after only 7 years). The original design had called for steel, but the concrete contractor had to get his. And the epoxy glue contractor, too.

Atlanta is a major city and first off, the speed limit in-town is ‘55 mph’. Second, multiple signs indicated the bus should stop, yet there is no indication that the bus ever put on its brakes. Likely, the driver had assumed he could get back on the ‘return access’ ramp…except this was a T, there was no return ramp…

By Sue

March 4, 2007 8:01 AM | Link to this

My daughter moved to Atlanta 21 months ago. I visit often and can fully understand how this happened. I, too, thought that an exit ramp off the HOV lane was the actual HOV lane itself. She had to correct me and added that it is very confusing. You can just imagine how the not familiar with the area bus driver made the same mistake. Those of you who live in Atlanta and travel it daily know the road well but people from out of the area who do not have HOV lanes don’t. I am sure we can all imagine how the bus drivers family feels as well. This is so very trajic for everyone. Those exits need to labeled differently!

By Bruce

March 4, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

It’s simple. HOV lanes are absolutely needless and confusing to many drivers.

By Colin

March 4, 2007 8:56 AM | Link to this

I lived in Atlanta for five years, I’ve also lived in four other major metro areas and, by far, Atlanta has the WORST highway infrastructure in terms of ramps (mostly what’s called “suicide ramps” where merging traffic meets traffic trying to get off) and it’s signage. It’s typical southern mentality there… dumb! More proof, born and (inter)bred Georgian DOTers claiming there’s nothing wrong… with an exit ramp with 84 accidents? Hello! Wake up.

Had a good friend that lived at apartments right off Northside Drive and saw someone once barrel off that exit into traffic without stopping, the ramp is VERY short and, to a driver that doesn’t know it, you’re at the T of the intersection faster than probably any ramp in the city. Even then while living there I thought of that ramp as a deathtrap.

Regardless of the fact Atlanta has the worst highway ramps and markings and some of the worst, dumbest drivers (if you’re in the right hand lane and you need to turn left, go around the block you morons!), poster Joe nailed it, there is, in fact, an HOV exit just a little further up (near another huge accident maker, the 75 south to 85 north ramp that the dumb Georgian DOT made in such a way it’s a centerfuge, littered with car parts, you can’t take it at more than 15 MPH) and the bus driver may have thought he was getting on that one, confident in his driving skills, decided to turn off the part of the brain checking the signage to the ramp, and barrelled along.

By S. Ashanti

March 4, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this

I recall an incident of a car slamming to a stop at that exit and thought it strange. It was not until I was on 75 and saw the HOV exit and said to myself, “That’s not right, that can’t be, who designed that.” I think an easy remedy to try would be to resurface portions of the ramp with the bumpy road normally applied on shoulders, install flashing caution lights to alert one when exiting there. If the driver had suddenly heard the roar of bumpy road and saw flashing yellow or red lights, he might have been alerted to slow down and eventually stop in time to avert this tragedy. I guess it is true after all: HE WHO LEARNS MUST SUFFER.

By Stacey

March 4, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

As stated in the story, this layout is extremely rare, The Atl roadways are extremely confusing and difficult to maveuver if you are not familular with them. and even if you are they can be a challenge. A left hand HOV exit that comes to a dead stop does not exist in most states. As the story states, there have been over 80 other serious accidents as well as deaths at that same exit. How many people have to die or get seriously injured before you people open your eyes. Hopefully no one you love has it happen to them for you to wake up.

By Rose

March 4, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this

Yes it is a problem for someone that doesn’t live in Atlanta or someone who hasn’t taken that exit before. I just happen to take a trip to Rome, Georgia, on yesterday, and on my return to the city of Atlanta I took the HOV exit ramp. Without my knowledge of the accident, I too would’ve kept the same speed of the expressway and ran into the median. Despite there being signage saying it’s an HOV exit there needs to be signage to say Dead End (left and right turn only). This signage should began as earlier as you began taking the HOV exit lane.

By from404to803

March 4, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Schindler made a good point about the barriers…with the ramp ending with virtually no escape option in case any vehicle’s brakes fail or due to driver error, stronger barriers are needed to protect these vehicles. I wished these ramps were designed to continue forward across an intersection in case such event occurs. Its reduces the worst case risk down to that vehicle being T-boned if hit.

By Judy

March 4, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

We drive all over the country through many states and lafge cities. Both my husband and myself would rather drink gasoline than drive through ATL or Miami. These 2 cities have some of the most confusing and poorly marked roadways in the nation. Left exits are confusing for motorists who have never seen such.

On another note, some of the folks posting here should be ashamed of the insensitivity they are displaying.

By D.Ward

March 4, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

This tragedy is not a shock to me I think GDOT hires imbeciles. The rest of the world realises the cloverleaf interchange is the best design on interstates yet these idiots,continue to do left turn on and off the exit ramps,and people wonder why traffic is so bad WAKE UP FOOLS CLOVERLEAFS WORK BETTER.

By SLM

March 4, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Yes there are signs telling you that you’re exiting and to stop ahead, but I believe (and if I’m wrong please correct me) that none of these signs are until you first are getting on the ramp or until you are already on the ramp and that combined with a driver from out of town who is unfamiliar with this stretch of road and who is driving at night is a lethal mix.

By MD

March 4, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

YES! I think everyone involved should consider filing a lawsuit against the GA DOT. This should be considered a product liability case. This isn’t the first time there has been a problem with this ramp. There have been several occassions when sober motorists have used the exit ramp as an entrance ramp and proceeded to travel northbound in the southbound lanes of I-75. This tragedy should have never happened!

By Beth

March 4, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

All the same… stay out of the HOV lanes if you don’t need to be in them. No one holds a gun to anyone’s head and requires them to drive in them. At 5:30 in the morning, there isn’t traffic on 75 South, and therefore no real need to be driving on one.

The driver screwed up here. I’m really sorry that’s the case, because now he and his wife and those poor boys are dead, but unfortunately accidents happen.

Stay. Out. Of. HOV Lanes. if. you don’t. Understand. The signage.

Drive safe, y’all.

By Beth

March 4, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

Oh, and to those saying “Oh my gosh, it’s so confusing”:

I don’t get it. Granted, I have a good sense of direction, and I paid attention when my parents were driving, so that when I became a driver myself I pretty much already knew where to go.

But, seriously, how confusing can stuff be if you just follow the signs, or slow down if you’re having trouble seeing/understanding the signage?

I think people are just expecting all exits/expressway designs to be standard across the board, and whilst that would be ideal, it’s completely impractical. How about, instead of making assumptions and getting flustered when things aren’t exactly like we’d expect them to be, we stay alert and drive with vigilance and good judgment?

By smitty

March 4, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

because the signs are confusing, and if he got on the ramp thinking it was a continuation of the HOV lane (which looks to be the case), there wasn’t much time/distance to adjust once he realized his mistake….at 60 mph he covered nearly 100 ft/sec and that ramp looks pretty short…..and at 5 in the morning there are no other visual clues like other cars on the ramp and brake lights ahead or traffice crisscrossing ahead on northside dr……and even people from the area say the ramp is confusing…….and if its true that there have been muliptle accidents there, i’m sure it won’t be long before investigators ( and lawyers, especially the bus company’s) turn up evidence that junior engineers and other subordiantes have been trying to get changes done at that ramp over the years, only to be turned down by superiors on a power trip (Henry?) more worried about economics than saving lives and a couple of years from now, long after a few people have lost their jobs, we’ll hear about the millions being paid out in settlements

By Jerry

March 4, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

To one who knows, it is easy. To one who doesn’t it is hard. And when we don’t we must learn. unknown aut.

Folks who drive that 75 South route daily may see no problem but I have viewed the ramp video at least 100 times. In the blink of an eye a driver can make the wrong lane choice from the overhead signage. I read the word “Buses” on the overhead sign. It is for the left lane. The word “exit” is also on that overhead sigh but combined with the diamond symbol on road itself confused me until I had viewed the video 25 to 30 times. I now understand the symbols and the signage. I now know!! That bus driver only got ONE view on his trip up the ramp.

I do not know why the bus driver failed to stop at the top. A yawn, a hicup, a hair in an eye — any of which would be insignificant for it not on the end of a short ramp with unfamiliar instructions

By ray

March 4, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

I drive a charter bus for a living…the most important thing for a bus driver to do is to PAY ATTENTION TO THE SIGNS…it is very easy to exit onto the wrong road if you do not pay attention…the driver was not paying attention…besides…why was he traveling right through the city..in an HOV lane at 5am when there is little traffic..He shouldv’e been traveling in the center lane…the safest lane in you are in an unfamiliar city???…the bus shouldv’e taken 285 to bypass Atlanta…right?

By smitty

March 4, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

if i had to guess, incriminating emails, inter-office communications, personal memos, are being destroyed and saved at this very moment as well as over the past 48 hours

By Beth

March 4, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Right on, Ray @ 12:33.

By MrHughes

March 4, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

The video was started from the wrong point. Right before the sign that says buses/carpools HOV with the arrow is a sign above the correct lane that says I-75 with an arrow pointing straight down. The two signs are close enough to each other that the meaning of both is obvious! In addition, in the miles before the exit I’ve counted at least 3 signs that warn of an upcoming HOV exit to Northside Drive. Add to that the stop sign, the stop sign ahead sign, stop painted in big white reflective letters at the top of the intersection and stop ahead painted in big white reflective letters on the ramp, and it’s clear there was enough chances for a driver paying attention. The driver was not paying enough attention. Period!!

I don’t buy the he was turning the heater arguement. If you look down to adjust your heater and rear end someone you are still at fault because you are not paying attention. That’s not a legitmate excuse, and I’m beginning to wonder about how many points some of ya’ll have on your licenses.

When it is all said and done I think it is going to be interesting to see why six people died in this accident. I think the driver was having some kind of heart attack and they were likely trying to steer the bus off the road. It doesn’t make sense that 6 people died unless they were all at the front of the bus trying to help the driver stop it and weren’t paying attention to the signs because they were attending to the driver. After all, he was 70 years old…

By Fred

March 4, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Each HOV left exit lane should have the following minimum traffic control devices:

Each HOV Exit signs should be clearly marked with LARGE LETTERS EXIT ONLY.

EachHOV Exit lanes should have SPEED LIMIT signs,

The yellow sign warning motorist they are approaching a “STOP” sign should have a FLASHING AMBER LIGHT ON EACH SIGN.

The STOP signs at the end of each HOV Exit lane should be installed on BOTH the left and right side of the road.

ALL STOP SIGNS SHOULD HAVE DUAL FLASHING RED LIGHTS ON EACH SIGN.

RED REFLECTORS should be installed on the fence at the end of each HOV exit lane.

By Beth

March 4, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

Mr. Hughes,

Did you see the state of the bus? It was decimated. Did you see the way it fell, and the fact that it fell… And consider that not everyone was sitting in their seat upright. Some were sleeping on the floor or across seats.

I think it’s fortunate that more than six did not perish, considering all those factors…

By Ray

March 4, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Fred…I agree %100 with your 2nd through 6th points…BUT….the Northside Dr exit is not an EXIT ONLY lane…the lane splits and you veer to the left to exit…the HOV lane continues…if the lane actually came to an end…then YES…put a yellow bar under the green sign for Northside Dr, Exit only…

Additionally, if this driver really was 70 years old…he should’ve have the expertise to be aware of various highway configurations. I’m 37 yoa and have been driving a bus for 12 years….I ‘ve made some mistakes ref exiting a highway or getting onto another highway by accident…and it was always my fault.

By former ATLer

March 4, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

The AJC needs to investigate how many tickets the cops have given out in the same time period that the 82 accidents have happened. The cops obviously knew about it, and according to people on here who’ve alerted DOT, the state is very negligent. Criminally, but nothing will probably ever come of it.

Those saying this is not a poorly designed, dangerous exit need to GIVE IT UP. 82 accidents in 10 years. EIGHTY-TWO!!! Now that we know that figure, the issue is FINISHED. It IS a dangerous exit. End of discussion. You and your high-and-mighty holier-than-thou attitude is not appreciated. Did the driver make a mistake? Yes. But it wasn’t one that should’ve resulted in the loss of his, his love, and four young men’s lives. THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THE S** DESIGN.

And if one more person writes that he shouldn’t have been driving in the HOV lane, I’m going to come down there and slap you. Yes, there IS high volume even at 5:30am and YES, the sign said “BUSES.”

Again, I hope the families are doing well and know that your loved ones are now safe and looking out for you and you’ll see them again one day.

By Chuck

March 4, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

I drove from Mableton down I-75s on Saturday noon to pick up a friend at a downtown hotel and looked at the Northside exit on the left. I don’t think there is an exit speed-limit sign there — just ‘HOV’ exit. And exiting left is always counter-intuitive for me. When I returned my friend to the hotel, I went down the same way only this time the two left lanes were blocked and I assume this was to allow investigators to continue to work the scene of the accident.

I get the same ‘willys’ farther down I-75 where you stay left to make the connection to go into a curve to the right to get on I-75-85 north.

And there are too damned many signs to read driving 75-85 in the heart of ATL.

And the lanes are narrower than they were before the 1996 olympics.

Recipe for confusion and in this case, disaster.

By Cherie

March 4, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

It is a shame we live in a high tech area and can not get the traffic correct. There are SO many areas that are not clearly marked, signs in the wrong lanes, lines on the roads faded and unclear, all over Atlanta, even the people who drive in Atanta on a daily basis have problems. Can we start with the easy simple things to correct and move on to the more difficult ones?

By Brian

March 4, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

I’m still trying to figure out why a driver would go 70MPH up an incline when the rest of the highway is staying level. Did he not realize he was leaving the highway?

By Beth

March 4, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

yo, former ATL-er… since you don’t live in the area anymore, and obviously weren’t on the highway that morning at 5:30, I’ll clue you in —

there AIN’T that much traffic at 5:30 am. I don’t care that it’s Friday, the traffic doesn’t start to pick up until a little later. I know this, because I actually, :gasp: drive that way as I still live in these parts. So, no real need for the HOV lane, sorry. Yes, the driver’s dead, but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t wrong.

Holier-than-thou? High-and-mighty? Maybe so. But I can read signs and follow directions. I’m sorry that’s a struggle for you and some of the others, but there’s a solution for that. It’s called literacy and they hand it out in grade school.

82 accidents in 10 years tells me that there are a bunch of people driving unaware out there. I passed by the exit going down Northside every day of my life for several years, and occasionally people would come out real fast making stupid turns… but I don’t think that’s due to improper design, just crazy driving.

Read the signs, follow the directions, drive safe.

OK, this stuff has all been hashed to death — doesn’t really matter what we all think. The unfortunate thing is that several folks lost their lives and I hope we can all remember the uncertainty of life and make the most of what we’re given.

By LeVerta

March 4, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

That particular exit should have bold colored signs stating only right and left hand turns can be made off that exit with a giant STOP sign posted with flashing lights if necessary. For people who are from out of state or who do not live here, it would be helpful. I am so sorry that it took six people to lose their lives before the issue would me important enough to address. For all troublesome exits to understand with motorist should be a more designated way to communicate dead end, only left turn, only right turn with flashing STOP signs. My heart goes out to the families of the deceased.

By John

March 4, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

I was the one that posted the “heater comment” and checked back to see this discussion. I still can’t believe that some are not getting it.

People have a reasonable expectation to believe that signage and road hazards will be clearly marked.

Once I saw those signs, I would have made the assumption that I am entering an elevated HOV lane. You have to remember - you’re doing 60 mph in traffic!!

The survivors are lucky and the city is lucky. I shudder to think if this was a fully loaded fuel truck or a bus full of elderly. Worse - they are lucky traffic was able to stop when they landed on the road in front of them!!

200 feet is NOT ENOUGH time to stop a Pinto when you have given the driver the reasonable expectation to believe that they are on a HOV traffic lane! It had rained and was 5:30 in the morning.

Did the driver make a mistake? Yes. Contributing factor. But once you believe that you are in a single lane elevated HOV that is PRECISELY the time that you look down to see your gages, make a heater adjustment or pick your nose - only to look back and see a wall at 60 mph !!! We have all done this. I’m 40, have driven all over and I would have done this. Even if I saw the stop warning your mind may not register it, because it is UNEXPECTED, especially if three others signs before it tell you otherwise.

That video makes me nuts. How someone at the G-DOT did not see this train coming down the tracks is almost criminal.

By Wesley

March 4, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

I am from Atlanta and lived in Intown Atlanta with family in Marietta, so I always travelled south many times using that exit…I now live in CA. Here there are MANY HOV (carpool) lanes that go on to other freeways or routes by going up and over, so I can see the confusion if he saw the same in Ohio. Also, I know Atlanta has used the clustering of those little square bumps to make you realize you should stop or slow down…why not add those it is simple and even drivers asleep would feel and hear those as would each passenger of a car or bus.

By LeVerta

March 4, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Northside Drive off of the HOV lane (left sided exit) should be designated with flashing Stop sign, and bold colored signs designating only left hand or right hand turn onto Northside Drive for the safety of all motorists. I believe a Stop sign with a flashing light would have gotten the bus driver’s attention to slow down. If there are other problematic exits such as the Northside Drive exit, those need to be addressed in the same manner. It is a painful experience to lose six precious lives because of a freak accident. Department of Transportation, spend the extra money to make these problematic exits user-friendly. Do not let their death be in vain, this is a wake up call to Atlanta Georgia, something has to be done to slow down the traffic fatalities. My prayers are with the families of the deceased, this affects all of us, because those young men could have been our sons, nephews, grandsons, friends, or loved one. The bus driver and his wife are going to be greatly missed. May they all Rest In Peace.

By ChocolateKisses

March 4, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

*STOP THE MADNESS, USE BIGGER AND BETTER SIGNS at these problematic exits. *STOP SIGN with Flashing lights to signal during the night time until sunrise.

By Raven

March 4, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Anyone who thinks that stretch of I-75 is not confusing is in denial. I’ve lived in Atlanta all my life and it still confuses me. I am still crying for all those young men whose lives were snuffed out or futures stalled because of a bad design on I-75. 82 prior accidents and 48 on the ramp indicate that stretch of highway should have been an ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION SITE before 6 more people died. Hopefully, the ramp would be PERMANENTLY CLOSED and the HOV lane clearly identified.

By Tim

March 4, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

The exit is clearly marked. There is a double solid line on the right denoting the HOV status and a dotted line on the left denoting the exit lane veering off. This is basic roadway design. If you can’t figure it out, you should not be allowed to drive a commercial vehicle. Maybe he was driving too fast for conditions…who knows why he did not apply breaks but there are 2 “stop ahead” signs on the exit ramp plus the actual stop sign. No road is perfect, but this one is designed correctly.

People keep mentioning a drunk driver that got onto the interstate going the wrong direction at this exit but that is COMPLETELY different. That could happy at any exit…drunk people cannot read signs as well as sober people. That is why he is in jail.

As for the northbound entrance being a ticket trap…all the police are doing is enforcing the law. They stop people at rush hour because those are the people that are trying to cheat the system…there is no line to get onto I-75 from the HOV entrance, but the regular entrance is backed up. The people getting pulled over getting onto the interstate in the HOV entrance know exactly what they are doing…it is once again, well marked.

By JC

March 4, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

Tim is:

A) In denial B) A lifelong resident of Atlanta who has never driven in other cities C) A high ranking official with the G-DOT D) All of the above

By HarrryK

March 4, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

I find it distressing to hear that Georgia officials are quick to insist that there is no problem with the highway and/or the signage. In Ohio cities,drivers will often find interstate signs indicating lanes preceeding an exit marked “Exit” from which an exit will branch while providing a continuous lane for through traffic.Signage for “exit only” lanes are highlighted in gold. Any Phsycology 101 student can tell you that all white signs are inherently difficult to react to.They provide information ie.Speed limits or instructions.They would not illicit a cautious response like a yellow or red. Also,why no rumble strips?

By former ATLer

March 4, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

Beth-

Just because I don’t live there anymore doesn’t mean I’m not there all the time—I was just there two weeks ago and before that, about five weeks ago. And I was on the roads at about that time, 6am, and there was a high volume of vehicles. But it’s a MOOT POINT: the lane is for buses. It was a bus. The sign said “buses.” It was a bus.

As for literacy, I have two masters, so I think I have reading down pat (not that I think education equals intelligence, it doesn’t). But I can read well and am a great driver and my point is that it is a design that can still confuse. Obviously it has: EIGHTY-THREE accidents and EIGHT deaths. So sad. And sadder that there are still people arguing about whether or not it’s dangerous. What, do 100 people have to die before you people get it?!

By Tim

March 4, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

Tim is not a normal Atlanta idiot driver who can read signs and process information. JC is probably a uga grad.

By Tim

March 4, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

Just a few years ago, Windy Hill and Cobb Parkway was the most dangerous intersection in Georgia and close to the top for the U.S. There were a lot of accidents and a lot of deaths. Does this mean it was a poorly designed intersection? No, it is a plus sign…pretty basic. The reason it was dangerous was because people didn’t follow the rules. They ran red lights, tail gated and made just stupid human decisions. The road had nothing to do with that. How was it fixed…they added red-light cameras. Now people don’t do the stupid stuff because they know they will have to pay. Just like the cops at the northside HOV entrance…they are not trying to make money, they are trying to make it safer for all of us. In a capitalist society, the easiest way to do that is make people pay when they do something wrong. And guess WHAT…Windy Hill and Cobb Parkway has something like 90% less accidents than it use to have. And no JC, I don’t work for the DOT and I have driven other places…I did however, stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night :-)

By Harryk

March 4, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Tim, The exit is of poor design.

By JC

March 4, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

JC did not stay at the H.I. Express last night, nor did he attend UGA. JC did go to an aviation university and has his pilot’s license. I drive like I fly - very careful and observant at all times.

I will be the first to tell you that I would have easily made that same mistake. At 60 mph, you should have clear signage and NO QUESTION about what lies ahead, and ample warning to take corrective action. The sinage is confusing and given the right conditions, ANYONE could have done that.

If that was my kid on that bus, I would want clear exit signs, a flashing red light, buzz strips, and no HOV markers in the exit lane. If that was your kid on that bus - you would want the very same.

By Carla

March 4, 2007 5:17 PM | Link to this

It is truly amazing how many number of local folks that are aware of the exit configuration think the markers and layout are OK. I find that this exit would be classified as TRICKY after seeing this freeway video for the first time and not familier with the area at all. The Engineering team that approved this exit need some additional checks and balance systems implemented. How this freeway configuration passed is unbelievable. You would think the locals would insist upon safer highway designs and markings. Some local folks better wakeup and remember the same Engineers are planning future highways for your family travel needs.

By KC

March 4, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

Atlanta’s HOV lanes were designed as an afterthought and only because the Federal government threatened to cut funding if it wasn’t implemented. In addition, as a city, Atlanta is not known for being a well-planned development, although there are areas within Atlanta Metro that are. Atlanta is a sprawl that has grown from 1.5 million people to 5 million people in the past 25 years. Atlanta city planners didn’t have the luxury of time to plan for such an onslaught of new citizens seeking jobs and opportunity. So, it is not surprising that much of our road development is a reactive process mandated by the number of traffic accidents and fatalities.

Also, Atlanta is one of but a few cities in the U.S. where three (3) major interstates converge. Atlanta’s former name was Terminus and has become a hub for air and commercial trucking traffic. Many of the wrecks on the major interstates involve tractor trailers.

Atlanta roads/traffic are difficult for seasoned Atlanta drivers. Newcomers or inexperienced drivers will find traversing Atlanta roads to be daunting and or dangerous.

I propose that trucks and buses have there own dedicated lanes - a real HOV lane - without passenger cars and one that is thought out thoroughly and not an afterthought. Trucks and buses would have to pay a toll for the usage but could travel with less traffic. Another HOV lane could be designated for all passenger cars willing to pay an additional toll. Though I am not fond of additional tax I believe this would work - actually economically it is proven that this will work. Our roads will be safer and this creates additional funding (besides ticketing) for long-term, better design.

By Carla

March 4, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

KC:

It sounds like a good future plan. But, we are in the PRESENT. How about paying for road bumps and better SIGNS now. Even better, install a cage to block automobiles. Even BETTER, BETTER, BETTER, just CLOSE the exit. That would get my vote.

By garrett

March 4, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

After seeing that ramp and hearing that the bus had no mechanical failure you have to believe that driver had a death wish and went postal. That ramp is OBVIOUSLY not part of the freeway. There are TWO signs warning of the impending stop sign, and the ramp is on a significant incline, apart from the rest of the freeway lanes. That driver did the equivalent of shooting a bunch of people before he shot himself.

Closing the exit is an idiotic idea. This is the first time this has happened and there’s no reason to think it will happen again.

By Jim

March 4, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

The exit is what it is

By viv elena

March 4, 2007 7:12 PM | Link to this

To the person who says this exit is not a problem. That is because you’ve been using it for 10 years! But for those unfamiliar, it is confusing! There are also many other locations on Atlanta highways that do not have proper signage and are dangerous. Take for instance the toll area on 400 going South. You go from 6 lanes to 3 lanes without any warning signs. They finally just recently put some arrows on the pavement at the toll booth going North on 400, but not going South. Maybe it’s about time they started addressing the trouble spots on the Atlanta highways before another awful tragedy happens! I would like to know who is in charge of the highway engineering here?

By Connie

March 4, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this

Garrett, I can’t believe you had the odacity to put those thoughts in print. Going postal is obviously not the case. Anybody that knows Jerry Niemeyer knows it could never be. Shame on you.

By D.J.Jackson

March 4, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this

To all those idiots blaming the driver. First of all if you anything about long distance driving

TO ALL THOSE IDIOTS BLAMING THE DRIVER,IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LONG DISTANCE DRIVING.FIRST OF ALL DOT(DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION)YOU ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO DRIVE NO MORE THAN 10 HOURS. THE DRIVER HAD JUST RELIEVED ANOTHER DRIVER SO HE WAS NOT SLEEP.AND IF HE HAD LIVED I DON’T THINK HE WOULD BE HELD LIABLE.I CAN EASILY SEE HOW HE COULD HAVE MISTAKENLY THOUGHT HE WAS RIDING THE HOV LANE ON I-75.IT WAS VERY TRAGIC.MY HEARTS GOES OUT TO ALL THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES. SOME OF YOU NEED TO HOLD YOUR COMMENTS TO YOURSELF ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.

By DD

March 4, 2007 7:26 PM | Link to this

No, I think the Exit ramp is clearly marked and there are 2 indicators to let you know that you should prepare to stop up ahead. I believe that the driver was asleep and was not aware that he even left the freeway. I don’t understand how a concrete wall and chain-link fence could confuse anyone. even if you are not from Atlanta, a Stop sign means the same thing everywhere. this is truly a case of driver error, the sad part is that lives were lost, but it is truly a blessing that no one on the ground was killed also.

By AP

March 4, 2007 7:45 PM | Link to this

I have been crying for these victims for 2 days. I have lived in Atlanta all my life. I do not DARE travel I-75 or any of the other major interstates during rush for fear of my life. I know full well the changes that have occurred on our streets thru the years.

After reading all the information I can about this accident and viewing all videos on the travel path of the bus and the signs in place, I think that, though the driver was in error, it is not all his fault. I believe the signage was not clear for someone not in our area. Six lives have been lost. This is such a tragedy. I pray for the dead and for the survivors that must live with this memory the rest of their lives.

As an added fact, I have read several times about how “experienced” bus drivers know how to adjust to different highway designs. I read that the bus driver had not been a driver that long. He used to work somewhere else (not as a bus driver) and was retired from that job. I don’t think he had been driving that long. Thus, susceptible to highway traps such as this.

God bless all the lost souls in this terrible accident. :(

By Joe

March 4, 2007 8:07 PM | Link to this

I was in Atlanta just this past weekend - 24 hours after this accident. The primary roads around Atlanta are among the most confusing of any city I’ve been in (including Tampa, Orlando, Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, or Boston). Compared to other areas, these roads are poorly marked and, with the volume of traffic, the left hand exits are more than a little confusing.

By Jennie

March 4, 2007 8:22 PM | Link to this

I exited onto what I thought was a HOV lane in Houston, Texas. It was exactly like the one at Northside Drive. Little did I know I was entering an entrance ramp for the Sam Houston Toll Road. Luckily all I lost was a toll fee.

By MrHughes

March 4, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this

I really don’t think a flashing red light would have made a difference to this driver. Lets tally up what was there…

1) The stop sign at the stop of the ramp. Even illiterate people who have never seen a traffic light or an HOV lane can understand a stop sign.

2) Two stop sign ahead (200ft) signs on both sides of the roadway. See point one

3) Stop painted in big white reflective letters at the top of the intersection. See points one and two

4) Stop ahead painted in big white reflective letters on the ramp. Nothing confusing about either of those words…

5) A big concrete wall and the fence on top of it. (Which really does not make sense when the bus had no brake failure, but the driver never tried to apply the brakes)

Add all this on the ramp to the signage over the mile prior to the HOV exit and it’s clear that the driver was not paying attention. Maybe we should all make drivers wear headsets that tell them what’s happening on the road ahead instead of them actually having to pay attention. Then again, everyone would probally just hack into them and attach it to their radios, so they could rock the new Beyonce CD.

I don’t care if it was raining. That’s the DOT’s fault too right? They tell people to slow down after rain because they are driving too fast for conditions. The rain really wasn’t an issue though because the driver never tried to stop. You can tell that the bus tried to make a right onto Northside Dr by the way it fell. But, it’s still a case where the bus was going too fast for conditions. After all, that wasn’t a sports car. The speed limit is 55. The way that bus went over the wall and through the fence says to me that it was going 70 up the ramp. Let’s hope that’s not the DOT’s fault either.

Last time I checked people weren’t supposed to be sleeping on the floor/in an aisle inside a moving vehicle. That’s stupid!! The last time I checked we had a seat belt law in this state. I seriously doubt someone sleeping in a seat had that serious of an injury, or many more people on the bus would have died. The seats on this bus seemed fairly soft. All things considered, the bus didn’t look as bad as I expected after that impact. It’s very likely those that perished were at the front of the bus helping the driver and standing beyond the “operator only beyond this line” line…

By MrHughes

March 4, 2007 9:23 PM | Link to this

People that think that roads in Atlanta are confusing need to have about a refresher course in drivers ed, sleep with a manual under their pillow or super glue it to their themselves so they have it for handy reference.

Let’s remember that this was supposedly a professional driver.

By carla

March 4, 2007 9:37 PM | Link to this

About Garrett’s quote- ” This is the first time this has happened and there’s no reason to think it will happen again.”

Tell that to the families who lost their love ones in the Fort Worth water fountain a few years back. When an Engineer proposed installing automatic release/shutoff pumps prior to the incident, the Fort Worth city council voted it down stating since no one has died already, there is no reason to think it will happen. Sounds like your Texas cousins.

By Carla

March 4, 2007 10:05 PM | Link to this

1. Most of the drivers in this country usually exit the freeway at a higher rate of speed than the merging traffic.

2. Most of the drivers in the country know the merging traffic yields to the exiting freeway traffic.

3. The majority of freeway exits flow onto lanes that have an anticipated amount of pavement to slow down.

4. The majority of freeway exits have a margin of error allowance that will NOT suspend the automobile in the air onto ongoing traffic upon mistakes.

5. It is reasonable to assume this was a accident design waiting to happen and needed additional safety protection.

6. THIS IS A BAD FREEWAY EXIT DESIGN - END OF STORY.

By von

March 4, 2007 10:05 PM | Link to this

If you were heartless in your comments about this tragedy, then I really feel sorry for you. My prayers are with the families that lost love ones or have injured family members due to this tragedy. I can see a person thinking they are still on the HWY, that’s all I will say about that. As for you Beth, I don’t know where you live but in Atlanta GA at 5:30am we do have traffic downtown. I know because I am a former employee of The Navigator.

By von5889

March 4, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this

This post is for those of you that seem not to realize that people lost their love ones.

We are all entitle to our own opinion but let’s get real. Do you not realize that some of the families will read these post. What if it was your family would you still feel the same way? This was a tragedy let’s not forget that.

By Robert

March 5, 2007 12:03 AM | Link to this

GA Liberal,

Actually it is the LIBERALS that mandated HOV lanes, then cut off new road construction funding (due to ‘anti-pollution’ laws). So, you get what you mandated.

By Robert

March 5, 2007 12:08 AM | Link to this

Tim,

This driver was 65 years old, regularly drove a bus, and had driven this route many times before. To suggest he had ‘never been here before’ is silly. Most likely, it is the opposite…overconfidence can lure a driver into a false sense of security, and thus not pay attention…

By Robert

March 5, 2007 12:17 AM | Link to this

By Shawn

March 2, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

I am so upset about this I had to weigh in. I know nobody wants to hear this - bit I am also from California I loathe Atlanta highways and drivers. The people who are saying its not bad must be the same a-holes who crawl up my rear going 90 at night in the dark on 400 during the rain.

I am so angry that this bus accident will now finally shed a light on Georgia highways. If only because the whole WORLD is looking at Atlanta thanks to the computer models, and google earth maps on CNN.

So this native Californian says - we need more cops, more lights, better signs and we need to deal with these mickey mouse retro-fitted highways and need better drivers ed in the schools.

Hey - Georgians! Tail-gating - BAD. Turn signal - GOOD. Simple rule but it works.

Shawn,

Please go back to California, where you can enjoy your daily gang killings and drive-by shootings.

As LA has the world-record for WORST traffic, worst commute time, most pollution, and least auto alternatives, it is hardly in your prerogative to speak. It seems you are more concerned with elevating yourself above others than the six dead in the bus accident.

By Robert

March 5, 2007 12:25 AM | Link to this

By Pat

March 2, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this

Some of the comments here sicken me more than the feeling I got when I saw the name on the bus and realized the good chance I’d know the driver, the carrier, and friends of friends of the victims. I’ve watched it all day before I was alerted to this website of mostly horse-shirt human beings. I-75 is an interstate that runs through Bluffton and the Atlanta interchange is not consistent with anything I’ve seen in the north half of the country. Hell, I’d never heard of an HOV before today.

The above comment I find disturbing, once again falling back on that old ‘North-South’ divide. Hmm, so YOU’VE never heard of an HOV lane? Well, STAY OUT OF MAJOR CITIES and stick to the country. If you don’t want to go through Atlanta, take 1-285. And most of all, quit that “our deaths are more important” thing. Do I see any Ohioans worried about the 9 Georgians killed (and 10 in Alabama) in tornadoes the same day? Some of them were children…where is YOUR hospitality?

Thanks for your concern

By Robert

March 5, 2007 1:22 AM | Link to this

To Radar Love,

People wouldn’t TAILGATE if ‘slower traffic kept right.’ If you are going too slow, then what do you expect. Also, slower traffic in the way cuts fuel efficiency and makes the highways MORE dangerous because people then have to find a way around you, when all you had to do was MOVE OVER or not be in that lane in the first place.

But of course none of that has anything to do with the HOV lane exit. Clearly I think most agree they need better signage, but that’s it. Northside Dr, Howell Mill Rd, and I-85 are close together and so this left-hand exit may actually be safer, as no one has to cross lanes of traffic to exit. If someone died from trying to change lanes, no one would hear about it. The real problem is trying to go from Northside Dr to I-75 South and then cut across three lanes to i-85 North, they should add an overpass for that one.

Also, it may be that the bus driver had a heart attack…he was 65 and a bit overweight, it might have had nothing to do with the signs. Having been a professional driver and having travelled the route many times before, I find it hard to believe that poor signage was the reason for this accident.

Finally, I do empathize with the six deceased and it was painful to read the story where the EMT’s decided not to try resuscitation on the patient in the ambulance. I wish I hadn’t read that because now there is some doubt, maybe one more person could have been saved, I guess the decision was made in order to get ‘viable’ patients to the hospital but one never knows for sure if that other person would have made it.

By Robert

March 5, 2007 1:39 AM | Link to this

OK, one more comment..82 accidents in 10 years, with 8 fatalities (inc. the six killed in the bus)…averages to one accident every 45 days, less than one death/year. I’m sure there are more deaths/year elsewhere…it’s just that it’s not as exciting as a BUS going off a bridge.

Finally, we saw four students killed in Alabama when a school bus went off an overpass,

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/21/bus.crash/index.html

the ‘culprit’ that time was a car hitting the bus and lack of seat belts. It seems our need to blame is part of our need for power/control, to think it won’t happen again. But it will happen again.

Atlanta is a major challenge to drive in, just a warning to all, trying to go from I-20 west to I-75/85 North is a dangerous curve, I think there are a lot of dangerous-curve exits. Given that this exit was a straight exit (and thus not as dangerous), the only dangerous part was the “T” at the end. Simply more warning signs should be sufficient to put this problem to rest.

By Robert

March 5, 2007 1:45 AM | Link to this

By Rose

March 4, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this

Yes it is a problem for someone that doesn’t live in Atlanta or someone who hasn’t taken that exit before. I just happen to take a trip to Rome, Georgia, on yesterday, and on my return to the city of Atlanta I took the HOV exit ramp. Without my knowledge of the accident, I too would’ve kept the same speed of the expressway and ran into the median. Despite there being signage saying it’s an HOV exit there needs to be signage to say Dead End (left and right turn only). This signage should began as earlier as you began taking the HOV exit lane.

Thanks, Rose, for admitting YOU are part of the problem. Off-ramps are designed to give you a chance to SLOW DOWN to a COMPLETE STOP, at ANY EXIT RAMP, PERIOD. That you drive interstate-speed on a slow-down ramp is part of the problem.

By Robert

March 5, 2007 2:28 AM | Link to this

Thanks for all the 20-20 hindsight and knee-jerk reaction, people. And Carla, please hand in your driver’s license:

By Carla

March 4, 2007 10:05 PM | Link to this

Most of the drivers in this country usually exit the freeway at a higher rate of speed than the merging traffic.

(They’re not supposed to!)

Most of the drivers in the country know the merging traffic yields to the exiting freeway traffic.

(The law says the oncoming/merging traffic has the right of way…WRONG AGAIN!)

The majority of freeway exits flow onto lanes that have an anticipated amount of pavement to slow down.

300 feet was not significant?

The majority of freeway exits have a margin of error allowance that will NOT suspend the automobile in the air onto ongoing traffic upon mistakes.

(Not true, which is why most have slow-down signs. If this one didn’t, I’ll agree that is a fault.)

It is reasonable to assume this was a accident design waiting to happen and needed additional safety protection.

THIS IS A BAD FREEWAY EXIT DESIGN - END OF STORY.

Bad design or no, BAD DRIVERS can make any design worse. Let’s not forget Atlanta has several driving disadvantages…the hilly terrain (1000 ft above sea level) means the roads need to follow the curves and can’t be built in straight lines. But that’s also true for much of i-75 through Kentucky and Tennessee. Last but not least, many drivers of vehicles with high centers of gravity underestimate the risk of flipping…had the bus been going 55mph or less on the ramp and started slowing as it neared the end, I don’t see it flipping, as it had to cross SIX lanes of traffic, a center median, and a concrete barrier and to hit hard enough to flip over…

By Jim

March 5, 2007 2:57 AM | Link to this

As a former paramedic in Atlanta, I have a propensity to look at these issues with a preventive intent. Caveats: I have no special background in highway traffic safety, accident investigation or reconstruction, or other such fields. All sources of information upon which I base my response have been restricted to direct observation, Cable/TV news and the AJC. I no longer live in the Atlanta area and have not traveled this particular section of interstate in approximately 2 years. I have rarely had reason to take the Northside Drive exit at this location.

The signage at the location is reflective and static. The diamond pattern of the HOV lane tends to become one of many focal points for a driver. From the AJC “Interactive: A Driver’s Perspective” video, I cannot tell if there are rumble strips in place. The bi-lateral warning signs of the stop sign are about 300 feet from the stop point. At a constant speed of 60 mph (88 ft/sec), there is approximately 3.41 seconds to the stop point. A controlled deceleration from 60 mph to a dead stop within 300 feet would require conscious effort in a standard auto. The momentum of the laden bus would have required more distance.

To the average, local (Atlanta metro) driver, conditioned over time to anticipate the exit, generally aware of its specific traffic patterns (one cannot discount the advantageous alert given by brake-tapping vehicles ahead), and knowing where that exit is taking them, I am sure the signage appears sufficient.

For a non-local driver traveling during the wee hours of the morning, the signage appears insufficient. The large bus injects additional difficulty to all that a driver of a standard auto encounters. If traveling at normal expressway speeds, a brief scan of one’s side mirrors for traffic approaching from the rear is enough time elapsed to miss one set of warning signs. Glancing around for any traffic that may be approaching and/or merging from either the left or right sides forward of one’s field of view will take a little more time, and afford an additional opportunity to miss signage. I also believe the normal tendency of a driver, after taking any path different from the present one, is to check one’s speed.

Given a driver in an unfamiliar environment, relative darkness, an above-average vehicle mass, without benefit of “alerting” vehicle traffic ahead, the limited distances involved, and the current signage, the conditions conducive to such an accident were in place.

At the very least, there needs to be some form of flashing, warning lights at the earliest possible location at the point of exit onto the ramp. Additionally, if not already in place, “rumble strips” must be added. Either multiple, flashing caution lights, or a stop light, should be placed at the stop point of the exit ramp, where Northside Drive traffic crosses perpendicular to the direction of the exit ramp.

A seemingly related issue of the I-75 South HOV lane is the point a little farther south of the Northside Drive exit, and prior to the 14th Street area, where you can either continue south in the HOV lane, or take a sharp, curved exit to the right (I believe onto I-85…?). At this point, there has previously existed a significant, raised concrete area immediately south of the exit lane and parallel to the HOV lane. The concrete area’s height appears sufficient to cause most vehicles that may travel over it at speed to lose control, or cause a rollover. In the past, there have been skid marks and other indicators suggesting motorists have gone across this raised concrete area due to its poor design. If it still exists, a proactive move should be taken to address it now.

It would be very interesting to see a statistical breakdown of accidents at both the Northside Drive exit and the latter location. At a minimum, over a multi-year period, it should depict the number of accidents, fatalities, and injuries requiring transport. It should also include the weekday, time of day, and should be grouped by All, Metro, and Non-Metro Drivers. Such an analysis of both sights might provide all the incentive needed to make prudent changes. Otherwise, I believe both locations are accidents just waiting to happen…again.

By melis99

March 5, 2007 7:36 AM | Link to this

After reading the above remarks it is obvious that alot of Atlanta drivers are not paying attention to signs. This exit is clearly marked about a mile before the exit. There is also a stop sign at the top of the bridge which he fail to pay attention to, because there were no skid marks to show he tried to break. Traveling at the speed limit of the highway, 55mph, he should have been able to stop or at least seen the stop sign to hit the brakes. Also take into account the time of morning this occured and how long the driver was driving. Some questions to ask would be was he tired and briefly fell asleep? Was he on any medication? After driving a long time looking at nothing but highway can any of us say we would be 100% alert of all signs? Was he doing something else like talking on a cell phone, eating or deep in a conversation with his wife while driving? (Which would have taken his full attention from the road). There’s a lot of questions that we can ask about this accident that may be unanswered but the fact remains this exit has been there for quite some time and how many accidents have occured? How many people have mistaken this exit, still traveling 55 mph or above but still had time to see the stop sign and realize they were going the wrong way. I truely think if paying attention he should have known this was an exit.(It’s clearly marked). Think about it if you where confused about which way to go wouldn’t you at least slow down, if not try to stop, to be on the safe side if you were alert? This was truely a tragedy that these good people lost their lives but maybe we need to look into the amount of time these drivers have to drive with no break. The company pushes them to meet a schedule and they have to regardless of the cost. Having to drive 40 miles one way each day I see so many Bus and truck drivers that are just not paying attention. But then I can understand because after getting up at 4:00 in the morning and working 9-10 hours a day it’s hard to make a 40 mile trip back home.

By melis99

March 5, 2007 7:39 AM | Link to this

BTW for those that think it’s a signage problem, if he didn’t see the two exit signs 1 mile before or the stop sign at the top of the ramp he’s not going to see the other signs either.

By Miss P

March 5, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

You have to consider the driver had multiple facts working against him: one-it was dark, two-he was on an unfamiliar exit, three-he hadn’t been a professional driver very long, and four-he was smack dab in the middle of rush hour traffic (which in Atlanta is not very friendly).

What’s interesting is..I heard on channel 2 that over 80 accidents similar to the deadly bus crash has happened at this same exit. I would think that if this many drivers have made this same mistake, then obviously there is a problem. I think an effort should be made to improve the exit’s label.

By melis99

March 5, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

As a driver, having taken Georgia’s CDL licencing for commercial vehicles this driver, althrough new, should have been following proper precautions. According to Georgia’s CDL driving test, section 2 of the handbook, this driver should have been looking 12-15 seconds, which is a quarter of a mile on the highway. This in consideration he should have at least seen the stop sign at the top of the ramp in order to stop. Also in the handbook it states the driver has to be alert and pay attention to all road signs and be able to recognize them. If he was looking 12-15 seconds ahead he should have also seen the exit signs and if he was confused should have proceeded with caution by slowing down. http://www.dds.ga.gov/docs/forms/CDLmanual.pdf

By bob

March 5, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Exactly when did the bus leave Ohio and was the driver the only driver???

By HC

March 5, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

How many more innocent people have to die before the idiots at DOT fix this problem? I’m hoping the folks from Ohio sue the state of Georgia and the DOT until there noses bleed. There is no excuse for building a ramp like this!

By Dave

March 5, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Whether or not the exit off of 75 is confusing, it should be clear to any driver that one has to stop at the top of the ramp. There are “stop ahead” signs on both sides of the ramp and the word “stop” painted on the pavement twice or three times.

By Mark from NC

March 5, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

The ramp is NOT the problem. The problem is speeding drivers not paying to the signs. If drivers can’t read signs, they shouldn’t be driving in the first place. This is what tests are for.

Being that the bus driver was from out-of-town and totally unfamiliar with driving in the area, he should exercised common sense and caution and slowed down as he approached the end of the ramp.

The ramp didn’t cause the crash, another idiot driver not paying attention caused the crash.

By Cari Hedrick

March 5, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

This is exit is a problem. I am from Atlanta and have gotten off accidently on that ramp thinking I was still in the hov lane. This ramp absolutely needs a new design!

By michelle

March 5, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

i’m sitting here reading some of these comments with absolute disgust. honestly, some of you on your little pedestals need a lil bump to send you crashing down.

eyewitness/player on the bus officially reports that he was awoke and heard the driver’s wife screaming, “this isn’t the highway!”

some of you may be from atlanta or the burbs…and you know what it’s like to drive in a huge city with lots of traffic and lots of lanes. to someone from a small town it is a little bit different. yes, there should’ve been made an effort to scout the trip (for all we know, there was). however, things in real life and things on maps aren’t always the same. just take mapquest for example. WORST REFERENCE EVER for driving.

seriously. if it’s not big news or heartfelt for some of you folks, by all means, continue drinking your crappaccinos and go about your oh-so-important lives. i have a little compassion.

By Shawn

March 5, 2007 6:02 PM | Link to this

Hey Robert - Did you know California is actually comprised of other cities besides LA? Yep - its a really big state. I am from NoCal - so didn’t get a chance to witness a lot of drive-bys.

Georgia needs to get over itself and seek best-practices from CALTRANS and the CA Highway Patrol.

The fact that California experienced a lot of the same growing pains ATL has - 25 years ago - may yield some valuable lessons. However, Georgians are too short-sighted, selfish and stubborn to do that.

Loved the GDOT guy on CNN this morning. GDOT deserves the wrath of the world on this one.

PS: All you people who believe in Darwinism when it comes to driving on the ATL highways - hope your kids, parents, friends and others are always in the hands of drivers just as awesome as you are! God help them, if they aren’t.

By Carla

March 5, 2007 8:32 PM | Link to this

Shawn- that was a good one.

It seems to me that some local folks are taking this personal rather than dealing with the real issue. We cannot forget that lives were lost here. Some of the comments regarding heater, cell phone, sleeping etc. are to the extreme at this early date. Some of the suggestions might really help for DOT to take a look at this design rather than get personal.

I only hope no more lives will be lost before someone get off their bottom and really look at this.

It is a good thing that the majority of traffic on this part of the highway is the local folks who are already familiar with the design. That should drastically reduce the percentage of lost lives. Now how about caring for the rest of the country.

By smitty

March 5, 2007 8:41 PM | Link to this

its not rocket science and eventually it will come out that there have been recommendations to change this exit going way back…….all it will take is a few police reports from the dozens of accidents at this ramp where the driver is quoted as saying ” I thought I was still on the freeway and couldn’t stop in time” for negligence to be established on the part of the DOT and whoever else is responsible for that ridiculously designed exit……and the morons, especially those DOT officials, who continue to defend the ramp’s design in light of what happened deserve all that’s headed their way…….

By Shawn

March 5, 2007 9:24 PM | Link to this

Yeah - and I’ve lived in Atlanta for 10 years and take that route all the time on the way to the airport, about once a week.

Atlanta drivers are the angriest, most aggressive drivers anywhere. Angrier and more aggressive than Massholes and people from Miami. Add to that the hilly topography and its like Mr. Toads’ Wild Ride - into HELL - everytme I go to the airport!

Atlantans are totally laid back, cool and funny UNTIL you get them behind a wheel - and then they grow horns. (With a Jesus fish on the bumper).

By Shawn

March 5, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah - and Georgia just passed some law that allows gun owners to carry guns in their lap. http://www.wrdw.com/politics/headlines/5902446.html

These are the same psychos saying there’s nothing wrong with Georgia highways.

If it weren’t for the excellent standard of living, beautiful climate, spectacular food, great music scene, NICE people, ethnic diversity, incredible flora and fauna I’d move away from this hellhole.

By kB

March 5, 2007 10:43 PM | Link to this

Would one of you please explain to me why that professional bus driver with a hundred yards to look at them, drove through not one, but two, both sides of the road, reflective stop signs at the top of that ramp at 60 miles an hour? Have you ever drove through an exit ramp or any stop sign you could plainly see for a hundred yards without trying to hit the brakes? And would you do it with 35 souls sitting behind you. He was nodding off, went up the ramp as he was falling asleep. I don’t see any other explanation that makes any sense unless the M.E. finds evidence of a heart attack or stroke.

By ronp

March 6, 2007 4:16 AM | Link to this

Whether marked or not, it’s clear the driver believed he was in HOV lane.

Drew has the answer…put down the stopping strips and this won’t happen again.

By gnjaxon

March 6, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

It is obvious to me that several posters here have never been lost in a strange city or have never made a wrong turn in their life. Most people who enter that exit ramp are more than likely intending to use it and taking the whole ramp to slow their vehicle. Persons who take that exit by mistake may need to take evasive actions to correct the mistake and with a large vehicle such as a bus that becomes exponentially more difficult. For many of you familiar with the area, it might be more readily apparent that the wrong turn was made. For those unfamiliar with the area, that may not be a possibility until it is too late.

With a left hand exit, most people do not expect the road to suddenly end. They expect it to continue on in a different direction. There is only one left hand exit between Bluffton, OH and Knoxville TN along I-75. That exit is just south of Dayton. They prepare you for it with no less than two miles distance and the signs are clearly marked that you are leaving I-75. It is the same with the left hand exits in Indianapolis and Chicago.

The exit ramp is configured similar to the Express Lanes in Chicago. They are on the left hand side and take a separate route from normal traffic and continue on without a stop until it merges with traffic a few miles later. It is the only city within a 7 hour drive of Bluffton, OH that has anything similar to a HOV lane. In fact there is not one city within that seven hour drive that has a HOV lane. Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Columbus, OH, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Detroit do not use HOV or car pool lanes to control traffic flow. Unless it is a road splitting off, most of those cities have exits to the right. Left hand exits are for using an express lane or separating Interstates and highways.

I highly doubt the driver fell asleep. He took over only an hour before the accident. At least one of the students said he was not on the cell phone or eating. My only explanation is the bus driver made a wrong turn and did not realize, nor expect the road to T until it was too late. I anticipate that the NTSB will draw the same conclusion. The GDOT may think the ramp was not a factor, but at least 82 other people have made a similar mistake. Those are the unfortunate ones who happened to get into an accident. This is coming from someone who did not know the bus driver. I know two of the survivors.

By Consultant

March 6, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

The HOV lane at Northside Drive is very confusing and dangerous. The fact that there have been 82 accidents there since 1998 proves it. But there are many other bad exit and entry points on metro Atlanta freeways. Metro Atlanta has THE MOST poorly configured/marked freeways in the entire US. No other city is as confusing as this place. I’ve traveled all over this country and have lived here for 19 years. Somebody, please, replace the GaDOT!!

By DW

March 6, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this

The GDOT may be able to design roads in Mayberry but they should not be designing roads in an international city. Go to lenox and try to navigate that area for the first time. The 400/85 debacle a couple of years ago where they closed a lane on 400 N to “make it safer” exposed their incompetence. It took the everyday commuter to talk some common sense into them to get them to open the lane back up and make it an exit only lane. They claimed their “study” indicated that commuters would “learn” to use one lane only. This is the way they think. They should be thinking that people coming to and through our city are driving our roads for the first time and design them that way. Get your act together GDOT and learn from this tragedy, do your jobs and make our roads safer dang it!

By Shannon

March 6, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

Bob,

I don’t know this for sure, but from what I’ve read the bus left Ohio sometime Thursday (I’m guessing afternoon) and several people said that the driver had started driving at 4:30 a.m., just an hour before the accident and that he was “fresh” (meaning he had gotten plenty of rest), so I take that to mean that there was obviously another driver, but I don’t know for sure who … perhaps his wife or maybe another driver was on the bus.

Shannon

By H. Stan Boring

March 6, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

I read only one blog which mentioned weather conditions the night of the bus crash. I was driving in Atlanta earlier that night. It was raining heavily. Some street lights are distracting in the rain. Much of the roadways are asphalt, which soaks up headlights and reflects street lights when wet. A great deal of the painted stripes have been allowed to fade. It is very difficult to drive in those conditions when you are familiar with your route. I went past the scene the next morning shortly after it happend. My first thought was the bus driver thought he was still on the HOV lane. Rectifying the visibility and warning problems could have prevented this tragedy. The DOT sees “no problem”. They are setting up their legal position for the suits to follow. Don’t blame the driver. He was a victim of poor design and maintainence.

By ike

March 6, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

In my opinion the culprit most to blame for this sad accident is the left exit design. The DOTs throughout the nation should learn that regardless of flashing lights, road bumpers and signs, a short left exit from a fast lane as occured in this accident is confusing for a driver not familiar with the road. Such exit lanes should be closed throught the USA.

By Jon Swerens

March 6, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

I don’t know if left-hand exits should be closed, but they certainly must be marked with the standard green exit signs plus additional warnings.

I address my six concerns with the exit on my blog. Stop by and comment.

By clearly

March 6, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

I can’t believe the comments and all the theories about the “cause” of this tragic ACCIDENT. Clearly there is some confusion related to this intersection, as there have been many incidents there in the past. I think it’s ludicrous to place blame on the driver in a sense that had he lived, that he should go to prison. One of the players was quoted in saying that he awoke to the driver’s wife screaming “it’s not the road, it’s not the road”. Obviously, he made a mistake, he’s human. If anyone here has never made a mistake while driving, I hope you’re sharing your expertise so that it may benefit others. And to PLUS SIZE MODEL, Praise God that these players were Christians. They already had the most important thing they could ever have, a relationship with their PERFECT Heavenly Father. God doesn’t make mistakes. Many of the people, EMT’s, nurses and Dr.’s who worked on and with these players spoke of their integrity, their Faith, their strength and the way they were bound together. That’s no accident, it comes from something much deeper than just human nature, and something which offers peace that surpasses earthly understanding; The Love of God.

May God Bless those who are suffering right now and May He Bless each of you, too.

By Temp

March 6, 2007 10:33 PM | Link to this

The HOV system is confusing in Atlanta. The last time I drove south on I-75 downtown, I was in the HOV lane and wanted to exit to I-20 west. There was no exit for the HOV lane and I went about 5 miles before exiting and then had trouble doubleling back on I-75. It is probably not a problem for locals but for through travelers, it is confusing. I can’t immagine how confusing it must have looked at night.

By MM

March 7, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

I don’t think it’s an issue. I feel that a driver once they begin to elevate can tell it’s an exit and there is time to slow down. It’s very possible the driver may have dozed off or was sleeping, but we will never know, we can only make assumptions. I think everyone is just looking for something to blame to justify this tragic accident.

By CNE

March 7, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

I think it’s confusing. The right hand exits are the standard green signs with the “exit only” portion highlighted in yellow to tell you it’s an exit lane. It looks like the signs at that exit are the same white signs that identify the lane as HOV, they aren’t significantly different and may not alert drivers that it’s exit only. That intersection is not standard and can be very confusing. I’m not opposed to left exits, but in a city where most exits are right lane exits, signage needs to be bigger/better/more visable for exits that are the exception.

By Kathy

March 7, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

This exit is not a problem. With yellow signs advising of a Stop ahead, it seems clear to me that the driver was in a “zone” where he was focusing only on the road in front of him and not the surroundings. Flashing signs would call attention to it, for sure, but however tragically, this was a case of driver error.

By gakarmelpeach

March 7, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

This is exit is very confusing. Several years ago I was behind a driver who was in that lane to exit, evidently realizing that was not the exit they wanted over-corrected causing the elderly woman to lose control of the car and a major accident on I-75. For residents, this may not be a problem. For someone not familiar with the dual HOV and exit lanes this could be a problem.

By Dan

March 7, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

I moved out of the area several years ago, and I can see where at 5:30 in the morning this could be a problem with the signage especially. Even before it was an HOV exit it was kind of confusing to see a left hand exit there. It can be a problem in the darkness, but the exit does not need to be eliminated, but maybe lit up and a bit more signage…I think it this tragedy, we need to be thankful this didn’t happen a hour and a half or even an hour later

By Connie

March 7, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this

I am absolutely disgusted with many posts on this subject! I graduated from Bluffton College (now called Bluffton University) and you “uppity big city people” will never begin to understand anything regarding this tragedy. Someone mentioned that after driving all night, the driver was probably not paying attention. YOU need to be the one to wake up and read the paper. The driver had JUST relieved another driver about an hour earlier.
I am a school bus driver and whenever I have a charter trip, there are times the roads get confusing, but I have never experienced a situation such as what apparently happened with this driver. You people who think you know so much, ALSO do not realize that Bluffton sits in the middle of nowhere. Up here in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, etc., we don’t have many exits that go to the left of the main highway. The few that we have do NOT go practically parallel to the interstate. As for the driver, Bluffton had used him before and he was dearly loved. To suggest that he went postal is absolutely unforgiveable. Perhaps if your highway down there was better designed, six people would still be alive today and the other 29 wouldn’t be either in the hospital or attending funerals right now!

By Connie

March 7, 2007 8:29 PM | Link to this

Has Georgia ever heard of those rumble strips to alert a driver that there is a stop ahead? Has Georgia ever heard of putting a stop light in when when there is 6 lanes a driver crosss before hitting the concrete?

By Ken K

March 8, 2007 2:11 AM | Link to this

“State officials have said the ramp met all requirements when it was designed in 1982, and officials have no plans to make changes at the site.” Boy, I think that it’s time for state officials to show a little more compassion and concern - there are bound to be serious lawsuits coming out of this, and any sort of positive public relations effort is completely missing here. The exit design is obviously flawed, and this story is not going to just dry up and go away.

By ken K

March 8, 2007 2:15 AM | Link to this

“State officials have said the ramp met all requirements when it was designed in 1982, and officials have no plans to make changes at the site.” Boy, I think that it’s time for state officials to show a little more compassion and concern - there are bound to be serious lawsuits coming out of this, and any sort of positive public relations effort is completely missing here. The exit design is obviously flawed, and this story is not going to just dry up and go away.

By Merriam

March 8, 2007 7:05 AM | Link to this

I have an idea: how about we just eliminate the ramp (and others like it) and make ALL drivers go the long way around to their destination. THEN they can place another Blog whining about the DOT and them not having enough exits!! You people are soooo Brilliant!!!

By LiasMom

March 8, 2007 8:09 AM | Link to this

I love some of the examples that have been used to show how it’s a dangerous exit. Today’s article talked about someone who FELL ASLEEP while driving and then drifted into the lane. So, it’s the road’s fault that she fell asleep, and should have been designed for people who were asleep?

And, others talk about a DRUNK DRIVER who used the ramp to drive the wrong way. Well, that Drunk could easily have gone the wrong way on another street, instead. Again, it’s the ramp’s fault that the guy was drunk? There have been plenty of other ramps in Atlanta where drunks have gotten on the interstate and gone the wrong way, so it’s hardly an incident that can be attributed to be the fault of the ramp.

Millions of people have managed to correctly navigate the HOV lane and the ramp - including both locals and people travelling through town. The numbers of people that get confused are really minimal.

Yes, the crash was a tragedy, and it was horrible that it was a bus full of students. But, is that really any worse than a crash where only 1 person dies? It’s still a pointless loss-of-life. However, crashes do happen all of the time - in all types of situations, simply because people aren’t paying attention.

By Shirley

March 8, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this

When you live in the area and travel it daily, roads with left-lane exits are not a problem. However, for those of us not familiar with the area-it is a problem. A caution or stop light at the top of the ramp is NEEDED to help those who are not familiar with the area and especially to help travelers. Last week, a DOT official made a comment to CNN’s Miles O’Brian that “He does not think a stop light would have made a difference.” My comment to the DOT office—Ray Charles would have seen a blinking light. It’s all about saving lives!

By Key

March 8, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

I think that the video shows good markings on the ramp.. key word RAMP.. it goes up.. it’s been my experience that UP and off to the left or right is exit or curve or something out of the ordinary ahead.. Not to mention the exit sign.. the two yellow stop sign warning signs on either side of the ramp.. the signs in the street. and the fact the if you are paying attention you see that you are approaching a bridge ahead that intersects your lane.. maybe it needs to be more lit up in the darker hours some way, but in the daylight… it’s marked pretty well. I empathize with all involved in any accident on this exit, but I think it’s pretty clear. PEOPLE have a tendency to not read, especially when they are driving and they “know” where they are going. If more people paid attention less bad things would happen on the roads.

By Beth

March 8, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

Rumble strips are a good idea, like many folks have suggested. Maybe that would have helped in this case. If people feel like a flashing light would help, hey, throw that in, too.

I guess I’m included in the high-and-mighty group — and to those asking ‘Haven’t you ever driven in a strange city?!?!’ — yep, sure have. In many US states and even a Canadian province. And you know what I do when I’m not sure where I’m going? I get in the Slow-y McSlow lane [i.e. the far right lane, not any HOV lanes, even if they’re available] and I slow my butt down. If someone wants to hit me because of their impatience, then they are certainly welcome to pay for ensuing repairs. But I slow down and do what I have to do to get to where I’m going safely. God help me if I ever go flying down a ramp because I assume I know what I’m doing [even though I’ve never been there before.]

Hey, mistakes happen. I make them, we all do. I misjudged a distance in a parking lot the other day and tapped someone’s car. That’s unfortunate, but I believe in due diligence out on the interstate, especially when I’m somewhere unfamiliar — lives are at stake out there.

Also — I didn’t say there is zero traffic at that hour on 75 South, but there just ain’t a ton. If there is, then why weren’t more people hit by falling debris, or why weren’t more people sending in eyewitness testimony about what happen? There were some on the road, but it’s just not bumper-to-bumper at that point, and you know it. Not sufficient enough traffic to warrant HOV usage, in my opinion, but then I wasn’t the one making the trip planning decisions, so what do I know.

I’m also curious about trip planning, and why the I-285 bypass wasn’t taken, but knowing the answer to that won’t solve anything — I’m just curious.

[I’m also really glad the players and the families feel well-taken care of by the city, and there are still some players in 3 of our hospitals, so if anyone is up for sending cards or donations or something I bet they’d appreciate it — the names are of course still in the newspaper]

By Chris

March 8, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this

Both of these exits (south exit and north entrance) should be destroyed. There have been numerous accidents in the southbound exit lane, a few of them fatal, and the police constantly ticket people who accidentally get on the northbound entrance ramp. If this isn’t obvious proof that the exit/entrance are poorly marked then I don’t know what is.

By Beth

March 8, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

Key, I agree with you. We all need to pay more attention. When I saw the video, I will admit, at first I could see how it’d be a little confusing, as it’s parallel to the highway. But as you go farther and farther down the ramp and see the markings — or at least, you would see the markings if not going at an excessive rate of speed…

I feel really bad about the accident, and now I’m a little more nervous about riding motor coaches anywhere…

Let’s all try to be a bit more careful out there. I fully acknowledge that Atlanta doesn’t have the best system of roads in the world, so let’s all adjust our road warrior skills accordingly.

By jondoe

March 8, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

It seems we are saying that the exit is well marked, but could be clearer. A better sign and some rumble strips will solve any problems. And yes, we have to idiot-proof the roads, as we are all idiots at some point. Let’s hope our moment doesn’t come at high speed on an odd, unfamiliar exit in the dark. NSTB needs a year to investigate? Is that a joke?!?

By Chuck

March 8, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

Chris Maybe ALL roads in Atlanta sould be destroyed…there have been wrecks and fatalities on each and every highway in the city and probably most of the surface streets as well. If drunks can’t negotiate them, change ‘em. If drivers aren’t alert or pay attention enough, get rid of the roads, exits, parking lots…hell, let’s just get rid of everything on wheels!! You make zero sense…

By geb

March 8, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

I am familiar with the exit and have never had a problem with it myself. However, has the DOT considered that the ramp itself is too short so that there is not enough time for people to slow down when they realize they have exited? Are there reflectors and those big yellow and black signs on the bridge wall directly across?

My problem with Northside is more often from the northbound entrance ramp. Too many times have I been traveling north in the HOV lane and had to do some real defensive driving around someone confused about the ramp entering the freeway at too slow a speed and attempting to immediately change lanes because they turned down the ramp when they shouldn’t have.

By brent

March 8, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

I think the driver had been through Atlanta before & knew there was a strange left-side lane he would want just before getting downtown. He got over 1 exit too early, thinking that he was in the 75 South HOV lane that loops around to join 85 South’s HOV lane. That’s why he never slowed down. I hope it doesn’t take the NTSB a year to figure that out.

By Melissa

March 8, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

The exit is not the problem. The HOV lanes are the problem.

By Jennifer

March 8, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

When I first moved here it confused me once. After that, I got it. But I also didn’t go barreling through the stop sign at 60 mph. I realized my mistake and was able to fix the problem without any incident. I read the statements of the other folks who have had wrecks and I noticed a pattern. They aren’t from the area so they aren’t familiar with it. They were mostly older folks who may not have been able to see clearly, and one lady fell asleep!

Come on, folks. I am very, very sorry for the loss their families have suffered, but accidents happen. And, quite frankly, I don’t think almost 90 wrecks in a 10 year span is that bad considering there have been literally millions of cars pass through that direction without incident.

No one is screaming about how ridiculous the exit/entrace ramps are that are all over. You know, the ones where you have to hope the guy coming onto the interstate isn’t a complete bafoon while you are trying to take the exit ramp.

The driver of the bus was not tired. He had only been driving about 90 minutes, is what I have read and heard. He just became confused.

By Chris

March 8, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

Seriously, I do not think the exit design is as much as an issue as people not paying attention to the road. For those people that are not from Atlanta and claim “in our area of the country we dont have many left exits”, I have to note that even in Atlanta we do not have many left-hand exits (I can think of three off the top of my head out of how many?)

I think that better signage could be helpful, but its still up to the drivers to pay attention. I agree with Beth from above — if you’re in a strange city, on a strange road, you should be even more cautious and alert than you are normally.

Naturally, I think its tragic about the variety of accidents on this ramp -but people are inclined to blame “poor design” rather than “poor driving” in many circumstances. Just in the past year, I was involved in an accident that totalled my new car — I could blame the road in North Georgia, but in reality — it was my own fault for not paying attention to the weather, the car, and the road.

By Patrick

March 8, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

A red flashing light at the top of the ramp or a traffic light installation, if traffic counts are high enough to merit it, would be the absolute solution.

By Otha

March 8, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Exits should not be constructed based on drivers being familiar with the area. Whether a driver is from Atlanta or not is inconsequential. I live in Atlanta and I am not familiar with this exit. If only one life is lost due to confusion, IT’S TOO MUCH!!!!! Change the darn thing!

By David

March 9, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

Regardless of whether the exit goes left, or right off the highway, the exit signs and stripes on the road are the same. Not to mention, the “Exit (with arrow pointing left)” sign on the wall between the lanes. The overhead signs that say “Northside Drive (with arrow pointing left)”. On the ramp, 2 signs, on either side of the road that say “stop ahead 200 feet”, the white painted letters on the road that say “STOP AHEAD”, and the actual stop sign at the end of the ramp. The speed limit is 55. Even if you hit the ramp at 55, there is still enough time to stop….assuming you SEE all the signs. Witnesses said 60-70mph and no brake lights going up the ramp. The driver wasn’t paying attention, it’s as simple as that. No road is “idiot proof”.

By David

March 9, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Regardless of whether the exit goes left, or right off the highway, the exit signs and stripes on the road are the same. Not to mention, the “Exit (with arrow pointing left)” sign on the wall between the lanes. The overhead signs that say “Northside Drive (with arrow pointing left)”. On the ramp, 2 signs, on either side of the road that say “stop ahead 200 feet”, the white painted letters on the road that say “STOP AHEAD”, and the actual stop sign at the end of the ramp. The speed limit is 55. Even if you hit the ramp at 55, there is still enough time to stop….assuming you SEE all the signs. Witnesses said 60-70mph and no brake lights going up the ramp. The driver wasn’t paying attention, it’s as simple as that. No road is “idiot proof”.

By lesia

March 9, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

I truly believe that the bus driver was sure he was down the road about 1/2 mile ahead where a driver has the choice of exiting to go north on I-85 or continueing on to the far far left in the HOV lane and remaining on I-75. He thought he knew where he was. He did not need to read the signs and he did not need to stop or slow down as he was just going up the hill and around the corner and on down the highway. He was not where he thought he was. None of the others on the bus were awake to notice the signs and alert him or slow him down. He made a horrible mistake about where he was. He had driven this route before it was reported. It was dark and he confused his position. The exit ramp is fine. I go there all the time and It works great.

By Cheryl

March 9, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

This accident alone is enough evidence that this exit is a problem.

By Beck

March 9, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

In Re: to Holly (March2) There was a warning : Note: Some Graphic Images Included. It was shocking, none the less. One more comment: America, where is the Compassion here! May God Have Mercy! Remember, when You are pointing your finger at someone, there are 3 FINGERS pointing back at yourself. Prayers & Sympathy to All the Families & the Community. God Speed

By janice

March 9, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

You know it’s not rather the exit is a problem! The fact is a accident happened! In the city of Atlanta there are more accidents then I have ever seen in my life.I lived in California!!!! Most of us don’t pay attention that has lived here for many years and for the driver he was in unfamilier territory. I am sure he was a very experienced driver!!!! I speak from experience for when I first got here I was always almost in accidents due to not knowing which way to go and some of us drive like bats out of hell! I get lose here at least once a month and I have been here for three years. I pay close attention 99.9% but there is always that 1%.

By JustMe

March 9, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

Slim you Mrn! There have been nearly 100 accidents on this exit ramp. You are the typical uninformed obliviot

By Not stupid

March 9, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

For all of you who have tried to paint the bus driver as ignorant, please try to navigate the highways of Atlanta through the eyes of those of us who are not familiar with HOV lanes and such. We had to fly out of the Atlanta airport recently and fully realized how confusing the signs would be to ANYONE unfamiliar and unclear. You see the diamond symbol with an arrow pointing to exit. I am not stupid, ignorant, nor am I uneducated, but the natural reaction is to follow that as an HOV lane. By the grace of God, I am fortunate enough to live in rural northeast Georgia where the majority of folks truly do not understand the concept of the HOV lanes much less the signage involved. Instead of you uppity Attlantta (yes, I misspelled it purposefully) folks who dare look down your noses at those of us who are lucky enough to live somewhere traffic is not an issue, why don’t you get down on your knees and pray for the families of all involved. (By the way, when I grew up there we natives pronounced it more like “Alanna”) May God comfort all involved through loss or injury. My heart breaks for those who lost precious loved ones….

By LaurenW

March 10, 2007 8:03 AM | Link to this

I really hope the GDOT engineers get the chance to read this blog AND seriously take the suggestioins to heart.

Atlanta is blessed/cursed by having three interstates which cut through our city. The sheer volume of out-of-state drivers who must go through our city en route to somewhere else easily reaches the thousands per day. We MUST understand that they may not be familiar with our quirky road system. A left handed HOV Exit is not the norm in other cities. Most people would naturally follow an HOV diamond believing that is the SAFEST way to stay on the highway as it is limited to vehicles with multiple passengers and not prone to in-and-out traffic. The driver in this case obviously thought that the HOV Exit was a flyover exit which KEPT HIM ON the HOV lane. That is the NORM in other cities! Drivers know that if they want to exit in a city, they need to merge right and exit just like any other vehicle. (Which is how the majority of our exits work.) They do not EXPECT that a left-hand HOV lane (marked with a Diamond and the word Exit) means that the road stops — they think that the HOV lane CONTINUES on that lane and they follow the Diamond! “Driver Expectancy” is huge — what do drivers UNFAMILIAR with our city expect, based upon the exits they have already passed and based upon what they would find in other cities who have HOV lanes?

When I read that the Exit met the minimum requirements for signage, I get infuriated. The MINIMUM is just that — the MINIMUM! Get over the CYA mentality and realize that even though ONLY two accidents at that Exit have killed people, there have been hundreds of near misses in ten years!

By Bobbie S

March 10, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

My heart goes out to the families I also drive motor coach and travel 75 I see how this could happen but at that time of day why would the driver be in the hov lane

By tom

March 10, 2007 6:44 PM | Link to this

On Friday, I drove past the exit around 5 p.m. Although the sign says Northside Exit, it also says something to the effect of “Buses and Multi-occupant” cars only. I can only imagine what a bus driver unfamiliar with the terrain would have thought at 530 am when an exit in the diamond lane says “Buses only”. To my knowledge, there are no painted signs on the road that indicate it is an exit; there is nothing to alert the unaware to reduce their speed; and, nothing to warn of stop ahead. Although it was designed “by the book” it was designed poorly. To me, it is oblvious that the bus driver was taken completely by surprise and I clearly understand why.

By Joe from NJ

March 10, 2007 9:15 PM | Link to this

There should be rumble strips on that exit ramp since you are coming to a dead stop from highway speed. I know the pig headed DOT guys don’t want to admit that and say it meets federal guidelines but that ramp looks just like the HOV lane he should be in near the next exit. Now that 7 died in this crash they will install the correct Exit Only signs and maybe rumble strips like on many highways were you must lower you speed or come to a dead stop like the toll booths on many highways.

By Cbr from Atl

March 12, 2007 3:26 AM | Link to this

Rumble strips are a GREAT idea, Joe-from-NJ! My suggestion is more expensive: require a yellow or orange “highlighted” background on all HOV EXIT signs, and yellow or orange reflectors in the ramp lane, along with the words “EXIT EXIT STOP 100 yds. ahead. Furthermore, they should replace that little stop sign with 2 of those ENORMOUS stop signs at the top of the ramp. Maybe even put a big STOP sign on the fence on the south side of the Northside Dr. bridge. Lives are too precious to allow this HOV Exit to remain unchanged and have another out of town driver have the same deadly confusion.

By Judith Smith

March 12, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

I don’t think there is a problem with the ramp. I get off there everyday and the signs are clear, posted on your left and right. I think the bus driver had fallen aslept and woke up too late to stop the bus.

By AeroNautica0909

March 13, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

I’m a college student born and raised in New York and just moved to Georgia 3 years ago. I believe that Georgia highways are the best in the country.

But there’s one thing I believe that Georgia should do that New York does- put lights on every part of the highway. The ramp is marked in a satisfactory way. I do commend GDOT for planning to make upgrade the HOV ramps as a result of this very unfortunate event. However, the roads and ramps in Metro Atlanta do not have sufficient lighting. The signs do not have any lighting. There’s a possibility that at 5:30am the bus driver could not read the sign clearly since only the headlights reflect off of the sign. If lights are put on the signs that may assist drivers at night to see where they’re going.

By AeroNautica0909

March 13, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

I’m a college student born and raised in New York and just moved to Georgia 3 years ago. I believe that Georgia highways are the best in the country.

But there’s one thing I believe that Georgia should do that New York does- put lights on every part of the highway. The ramp is marked in a satisfactory way. I do commend GDOT for planning to make upgrade the HOV ramps as a result of this very unfortunate event. However, the roads and ramps in Metro Atlanta do not have sufficient lighting. The signs do not have any lighting. There’s a possibility that at 5:30am the bus driver could not read the sign clearly since only the headlights reflect off of the sign. If lights are put on the signs that may assist drivers at night to see where they’re going.

By Marie

March 13, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

One more change that would definitely cause people to take notice before the stop sign is to have the “bumps/cuts” in the lane that would vibrate the car prior to the stop sign (I’m sorry, I don’t know the correct terminalogy for these).

By AeroNautica0909

March 13, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

I’m a college student born and raised in New York and just moved to Georgia 3 years ago. I believe that Georgia highways are the best in the country.

But there’s one thing I believe that Georgia should do that New York does- put lights on every part of the highway. The ramp is marked in a satisfactory way. I do commend GDOT for planning to make upgrade the HOV ramps as a result of this very unfortunate event. However, the roads and ramps in Metro Atlanta do not have sufficient lighting. The signs do not have any lighting. There’s a possibility that at 5:30am the bus driver could not read the sign clearly since only the headlights reflect off of the sign. If lights are put on the signs that may assist drivers at night to see where they’re going.

By LaurenW

March 13, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

Glad to hear GDOT is making changes to the HOV Exit lanes at Northside and elsewhere. However, Rumble Strips are needed. They are universally recognized world-wide as indicators that the road is changing from a high-speed area to a stop sign or traffic light. THIS would insure that even those drivers who are marginally literate would understand.

By JR

March 13, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

The DOT should consider also adding those noisy strips that let drivers know when they’ve coming to a major intersection. I accidently took one of exits once, but at least it was daylight and I was familiar with the area. I was just not used to being in the HOV lane.

By Brenda

March 13, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

After all the changes are made with the signs, they should also name the bridge the Bluffton University Memorial Bridge in memory of this tragic event.

By cj

March 13, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

Reading the webpage about changes they are adding to the Northside 75south HOV lane ramp, RUMBLE STRIPS is not mentioned. I don’t know why?

They are adding a concrete median accross the northside rd in front of the ramp there. I guess that means buses will have 2 barriers to flip over instead of one now.. sigh cj

By Loretta

March 13, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

I recently sent a letter to the DOT Suggesting Rumble strips be added to the exit.The raised strips (Rumble strips)to alert the drivers of changes to come. A raised Island in the exit will not stop a vehichle at full speed. Most definatelly would not stop a bus. However the ridges would shake-up the driver as he approached the exit. DOT should consider the small change.

By Shae

March 13, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

If this would have happen to a group of any other people that would just been an accident. Rumors would have started that the bus could have been on a list of things. Any time there is an accident deal with these type of people changes are made. WHY? Well you can say that it happen to the token kid too. Let a bus full of black people go off the bridge. I know for a fact they wouldn’t make changes for them.

By Shae

March 13, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

If this would have happen to a group of any other people that would just been an accident. Rumors would have started that the bus driver could have been on a list of things. Any time there is an accident deal with these type of people changes are made. WHY? Well you can say that it happen to the token kid too. Let a bus full of black people go off the bridge. I know for a fact they wouldn’t make changes for them.

By keith

March 13, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Shae

Why don’t you get a life. HOSS

By Andy

March 13, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Some raised ribs or concrete ripples on the road surface at these types of exits (like the ones used approaching some stop signs on rural roads) would help alert drivers that they were to slow down. So even if they did go up the ramp by mistake at least they might slow down enough to avoid an accident.

By NATE

March 13, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

THEY ALSO NEED A FLASHING RED LIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE RAMP.

By SBradbury

March 14, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

The sign has a diamond (HOV) and the exit ramp has one also….does one not see how they would have thought it was the HOV lane? I cannot believe that they don’t plan to change the sign.

By Stage Mom

March 14, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

My 17 year old son remembers how EVERY TIME I took him to his auditions downtown , I always lamented about the HOV (diamond)being on the same sign as the exit ramp. He asked me, “don’t you wish you would have written complaint letters now?” Yes, yes, I do!

By zeke

March 14, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

The hov lanes are the problem! They need to be converted to standard lanes to improve traffic flow from 16% to 25% depending on the number of lanes total!! Get rid of hov lanes! They serve no usefull purpose!!!