Chatter

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

I don’t think the ramp is a problem…in fact, I was very distressed in 1996 when the HOV lanes went in and the ramp became HOV only. I had used it for over 5 years on my commute from Marietta to Coca-Cola. Getting off at Northside at that ramp shaved over 10 minutes taking the Howell Mill/Northside combo exit ramp that is like a breech birth! It seems VERY identified as an HOV exit to Northside drive.

By juustine

March 2, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

YES!!!! the problem is the signs onthe freeway are not clear. When you are moving at that speed you cannot see the sign. But the state is too cheap to write EXIT EXIT EXIT ONLY on the ground in bold yellow letters.

By Geoffrey

March 2, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

My wife and I frequently carpool to work and use that off ramp. It is well marked and the same as any other ramp that exits to the right.

By Erika

March 2, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

It is absolutely a problem. The signs are extremely confusing, and although I live less than a mile from that exit and always go through there, I still get irritated at the inefficient and badly designed layout of that whole intersection. Something needs to be done about it.

By ANGELA FLEMISTER

March 2, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

ABOLUTELY…………………IT IS SAD THAT IT TOOK THIS TRAGEDY TO BRING LIGHT TO THIS EXIT PROBLEM.

By Renee

March 2, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

Yes it is. It is a speed trap when entering the highway there as well. Police wait to pull large amounts of cars over to ticket them for HOV violations. The lanes are not marked large enough or clear enough. The HOV exit and entrance are small signs and hard to see in traffic or when it isn’t daylight.

By ANGELA FLEMISTER

March 2, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

ABSOLUTELY…………………IT IS SAD THAT IT TOOK THIS TRAGEDY TO BRING LIGHT TO THIS EXIT PROBLEM.

By Geoffrey

March 2, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

juustine, are you talking about the same exit? It is marked exactly the same as any other exit and is not “exit only” as you said. Unless you meant that once your on the exit it becomes exit only. But then again all exits are “exit only” once you drive up them. The road is smooth and even at that exit requiring you to make a deliberate left turn to take the ramp. How is this more dangerous than any other exit ramp?

By Greg

March 2, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

This is the same ramp that a drunk used to access the highway and drive the wrong way, killing a family a few years back. The northbound ramp is used almost everyday by the local police as a “ticket trap” because they know that the signage is so confusing that many people mistakenly use the HOV-only ramp to get onto 75N. Something needs to be done here. The current configuration is misleading and dangerous.

By DBH 1

March 2, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

Don’t forget this is the same interchange that a drunk driver entered the freeway the wrong way several years ago and traveled several miles northbound before crashing killing several people. Even though that driver was impaired, it does indicate that there is a problem with the design.

By Pam

March 2, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Based on the reported speed of the driver as he exited the ramp, my first guess was he thought he was still on the interstate and didn’t realize he was exiting. Either that or he was sleeping and the sleeping theory has already been proven otherwise. The HOV lanes are not the best thought-out design for people who are not familiar with ATL roads. I really do believe it was the design of the HOV exit lane that cause this tragic situation.

By slim

March 2, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Let’s see, this ramp has been an HOV exit for how many years?? 10?? and how many accidents have there been like this?? one??

If the signage was truly bad, there would have been more accidents like the one seen today, or possibly involving vehicles flying up the ramp, into traffic, but not quite going over the bridge.

This was a case of egregious bus driver error. You just DON’T fly up the ramp and assume it allows you to go straight unless you’ve driven it before to confirm.

By Drew

March 2, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

A very cheap solution is to put rumble strips at the base of the exit to alert you that you have to stop ahead. Depending on the actual length of the ramp this could have given the driver enough time to stop before going off the other side of the bridge or to at least dramatically slow down. Simple and inexpesive!!

By Carl G

March 2, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

First it was Comair in Lexington, where the signs were disregarded. Now the HOV exit lane signs were disregarded and again people died through others negligence. Be it bus drivers or pilots there is just too much complacency. This bus driver and the surviving Comair pilot should spend twenty years in prison to wake up the next person about their responsibility.

By alfonso the great

March 2, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

The HOV lanes are not clearly marked and the police sit there and wait for those who don’t see the signs to enter the highway and then they ticket them. It is a scam. And my friends in the police department will gladly tell you so.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Geoffrey - a road “smooth and even” doesn’t make it a safe exit. Are the signs large enough to see at a given speed? Can it be seen in the pre-dawn darkness? Can an out of state driver not used to Atlanta area roads make sense of the signs and exit? Remember this situation may seem very different to someone who does not use this exit every day like local commuters do.

By Dave

March 2, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

That exit and the northbound entrance ramp are both problems. The northbound entrance ramp is designed for the sole purpose of raising revenue. Anyone who denies that is kidding himself. The problem with the southbound ramp is that it doesn’t seem like an exit ramp. I’ve mistakenly found myself on that ramp without realizing it. Once I actually had to go ahead and exit. It was embarrassing but I was able to stop before doing what the bus did. I can see how a bus driver who is unfamiliar with the area, driving in the darkness, could make that mistake. The real surprise to me is that this hasn’t happened many times before.

By Joe

March 2, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

I have lived in Atlanta since before these ramps were converted to HOV and I think that they are marked as well as any others. However, the HOV ramp at Northside Drive is just north of the HOV exit lane to the downtown connector. I wonder if the driver of the bus mistakenly thought he was on that exit instead? At 5:30 am (in the dark) it could be a plausible explanation, especially since the bus driver apparently did not try to stop.

By Ann

March 2, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

That entire exit interchange is confusing. I have never used the HOV exit ramp, but on time I almost turned into from Northside drive by mistake.

Even if you are familiar with the area, it can be confusing because the signs are few and far between. On northside drive some of the signs are faded or hidden behind overgrown bushes.

Of course, if you exit here every single day, it is not confusing. duh

At the very least, there should be the “slow down” strips installed on the ramp because it is short. If you take it by mistake, then at least you would have warning.

By DJ

March 2, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

The exit is clearly marked. Any driver w/a bit of common sense and perception would see that. Those that don’t believe it shouldn’t be driving.

By ricardo

March 2, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

This type of layout is confusing to drive on. People get tickets pretty often and police knows about it.So they wait for you down the ramp instead of trying to prevent. nice yeah Hello??People who drive on that area everyday may not notice it because they get used to the same commute and makes it a mecanical drive but it is not well designed and the signage is confusing no doubt.

By Native

March 2, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

YES! I fully believe this accident happened b/c of this HOV/exit lane confusion. It’s awful. It’s always been a problem but no one’s cared enough to even think about it until now. So very sad.

By Anais

March 2, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

Yes! When I first moved here I had almost gotten in to an accident right in that same area. There are so many places in Atlanta (& the outskirts) that are not well lit, no signs (or street signs for that matter), nor are they painted very often so you can see the lines properly. Half of the time people do stupid things b/c there are no signs indicating what is going to happen (a merge for example) until it’s too late and then that person freaks out and follows the sign last minute and nearly kills everyone in their path. I know b/c I have been that person a couple times and it makes me mad. I used to wonder how someone could drive the worng way on the highway…there are some spots in Atlanta that make it perfectly easy. Again, I cannot remember where right at this point but when I first moved here I nearly went down the wrong ramp to 75. I made a U-turn once I realized what I had done. Someone older or paying less attention might not be that lucky.

By Brian

March 2, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

I’ve driven I-75 into the city for 27 years now. I’ve seen all the traffic improvements over the years and this one is still confusing to me, especially when driving the HOV lane. I tragic that such a horrible accident has resulted from this poor design. I suggest it be closed until fully investigated.

By Phyllis

March 2, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Atlanta highways and interstates are a disgrace. Lack of signs, lanes end without any signs, construction goes on with lanes closed that you don’t see until you are on top of the workers. Atlanta needs to get on board with the times. Paint the pavement indicating turns so that anyone from any country will understand.

By Monica

March 2, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

This exit is not very well marked as coming to an end at the top of Northside. As someone from out of town, I can see where this could have been a mistake - a costly one at that. Posted signs to reduce speed could have helped this situation. I feel for the team and its members.

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Greg…No one is ‘mistakenly’ taking that ramp not knowing that it is HOV!!! They are jerks breaking the law trying to get ahead of everyone else since the law doesn’t apply to them!! Just like gore violators that try to sideswip me as they enter the freeway. I am glad to see them get pulled over.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Carl - regarding the bus driver, unfortunately he died in the accident so he won’t be spending time in prison. Are you possibly “blaming the victim” here?

By Tommy

March 2, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Try entering I-75 from North Side Dr. when you are not from the Atlanta area. I was down there this past Saturday for the motorcyle show and nearly went southbound into traffic when I wanted to go north bound. One time I entered I-75 from North Side Dr. into the HOV lane north bound and drove in it a couple of miles before I ever realized I was in the wrong lane. The system is not designed real well to me. In places like Boston the HOV lanes are completely seperated from regular traffic by a barrier wall and the direction are changed for morning and evening rush hour which makes it safer and better. Down here they tried to get fancy and failed. Spent more money and got a poorer product.

By Common Sense

March 2, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

its only a problem at 5:30 am when you have been driving all night and may be a little sleep deprived…then your attention spam is reduced and your concentration is too. At that point I don’t care how the system is designed you may be in trouble. I drive the route everyday, it is very clearly marked and well lit at night.

By Ellen

March 2, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

As an Atlanta newcomer, I found this exit very confusing. It’s an honest mistake that anyone unfamiliar with the area could make.

By FNU

March 2, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

It is not obvious when dark, and left exits are not the norm. Also, there is only a stop sign at the top, so there is no reinforcing illuminated indicator that they need to decelerate quickly and stop. A person not from here, and following along the inside left line to stay in their lane could easily continue up the exit if distracted, especially if they are enjoying the skyline at night as they come around the corner of I75 southbound at that location.

Left exits in other states/cities usually get some kind of special indication and color so motorists know to start getting to the left instead of the right, and short exit ramps usually have extra signage to ensure motorists understand they must decelerate rapidly.

By Nancy

March 2, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

The exit off 75 onto Northside isn’t so much a problem as the cloverleaf that dumps you onto 75 South from Northside. You have exactly one car length to merge into traffic from the Howell Mill feeder, with no place to go if someone turns out to be in you blind spot except a concrete abuttment. It sound like the bus either lost its brakes or its transmission was caught in high gear, though, if not both.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

Great idea Drew. Rumble strips are a good solution. That would warn anyone who mistakenly got off at that HOV exit to stop quick.

By Connie

March 2, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

The design of that Northside exit is a problem for regular Atlanta drivers. Just imagine not being from the Metro Area and driving in the HOV lane at night. The bus driver thought he was still on the interstate and did not realize he was not until he saw the fence on the overpass. What a tragedy.

By j

March 2, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

The only problems with Atlanta roads are the morons that inhabit all of our roads. I’m sorry that people were hurt and killed but I guarantee that it had nothing to do with roads or signs all to do with skill and understanding. Atlanta is not confusing. If people just understand that if they know they need to exit EVERY DAY at the Cheshire Bridge exit, try to make sure that you’re in the far right lane around the time you get to N Druid. Don’t switch 6 lanes and cause a pile up right at the Cheshire Bridge exit. You go this way every day. Be prepared. All of us need to prepare. That’s the problem. If you goof, there’s always the next exit to correct this issue. Here’s what I see on a regular basis. This week has been chock full of immigrants not understanding the rules of the road or better yet, the “culture” of the road. Riding in the far-left lane on 85 nb at 7:15am while doing 55mph isn’t smart. This causes a back-up which develops into road rage. This morning (maybe some of you remember) at 7:15am 85 nb around 285 was the aqua-green Grand Prix doing 50mph in the fast lane. This driver had the nerve to flash the bird at me as I went by. This was unprovoked. Don’t be a traffic moron. Between the ladder-stacker vans and box trucks doing less that average speed in the fast lanes, all of our roads can be hazardous. It’s not the roads, it’s the people. The other memorable one this week was on Sidney Marcus turning left on to Piedmont in front of the Chik Fillet. Only 3 cars made it through the stop light turn arrow as this guy was READING the newspaper. I honked motioning for him to go and he took the time to properly fold his paper and then proceed with driving. When the next light caught us, he took the paper back out and began reading. He left about 3 car-lengths between his car and the one in front of him. This caused a back-up on Piedmont as this caused cars to block the intersection not to mention the people that broke into line at an angle causing more back-ups. The lights turned green and guess what? We sat there. I had to honk again. He threw his hands in the air as if asking “WHAT????”
WHAT???? Drive you idiot. I do not have road-rage. I have idiot rage.

The public needs to start reporting poor drivers to law enforcement. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Come on law enforcement, we need a little help here.

By Zach

March 2, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

I’ve traveled this road thousands of times, and I agree with Joe; if the driver had taken this route before, he may have been thinking he was further down where the HOV lane runs alongside the I-85 northbound ramp before suddenly cutting away to the south (esp.”suddenly” for a vehicle the of the bus’s size). This would explain the speed, but don’t forget how high up bus drivers sit; they have a much better view of the oncoming road. Odd that he wouldn’t have noticed the opposite ramp going down on his left, which looks very much like an on-ramp, and the fending at the top, the right angle of the bridge, etc. And isn’t there a stop sign at the top of the ramp? No one’s realized, this area’s not dark at all; it’s one of the best illuminated freeways inside the city.

By FlyJets

March 2, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

YES! The HOV lane exit is VERY CONFUSING. I can almost imagine what would have been the last sec. of the driver. Thought that was the HOV lane and took off on the ramp. THe last sec he must have realized there’s a wall and can’t do a thing crashed the wall. My heart goes out to the everyone who lost love ones in this tragic accident. May God Bless their souls. The HOV lane and poor marking are to blame in this accident.

By Chris

March 2, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

People are complaining about two issues; the signage for 1) entering the northbound HOV on ramp to I-75N as well as 2) the southbound HOV exit onto Northside drive where the accident occurred.

For 1), I agree. The signage is horrible and it’s easy to turn onto the HOV-only northbound onramp by accident (and be greeted by a police officer).

For 2, the signage marking the exit is adequate. Furthermore, there are dual signs on the ramp that warn about the approaching stop sign at the end of the ramp as well as a stop sign at the end.

By Jeff

March 2, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

I bet the bus driver thought he was at the 75-85 interchange just south of Howell Mill where the HOV lane veers to the left. The 75-85 interchange is the one that is screwed up.

By PlusSizeModel

March 2, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

I can’t imagine the ramp was the problem. I mean, the driver had to know he was exiting given the incline, not to mention the STOP SIGN! We must be looking at either mechanical error or a death wish on the part of the driver. Blaming the signage is just silly. On a side note: odd that god would kill christian college kids.

By Byron

March 2, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

I think it is really insensitive of the AJC to have the photos of the dead lying on the side of the road posted on the website. Someone in authority should remove them immediately and express regrets to families of those lost in this tragic accodent.

By Fishtales

March 2, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Common sense…why don’t you get some and read the report before spouting off. It was NOT some tired driver…he had just taken over the weheel an hour earlier.

By Suzan

March 2, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

When I was a new resident of this area, if my daughter hadn’t been with me I would have had a problem with that exit. To this day, I have to tell myself that that’s the HOV exit, and I’m a fairly good driver and very observant. The signage stinks. I don’t believe the bus driver realized what he was doing. Don’t condemn him, he and his wife were both killed. Think about his family and the families of the others and pray for them.

By Luis Hidalgo

March 2, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Yes this exit is a trap,if you drive from another Estate. They are not familiar whit this exit.

By Me!

March 2, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

Geoffrey, you ask, “how is this different from any other lane?” It isn’t any different. That’s the problem. I’ve been living in Atl for 6 moonths and I’ve never experienced roads and highways like the ones here EVER. There’s been many times that I’m driving straight and end up in a turning or exit lane and have to turn or exit when I don’t plan to. Whomever came up with this needs their head examined.

By PlusSizeModel

March 2, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

I might add that there’s no limit to what people will blame on someone else when something goes wrong. There’s no way the lack of signage was the problem. How someone could be “confused” when you go from a six lane freeway onto one isolated lane on an incline and a stop sign at the end of it is beyond me. Like I said: meachanical failure or driver death wish, period. You whining idiots make me shake my head ruefully.

By Me!

March 2, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

The roads here are designed for people who’ve lived in Atl all their life and not for newcomers and outsiders.

By Sad Story

March 2, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

Would it make sense to have a flashing yellow light at the end of the ramp?

Are the stop signs large enough, and does the elevation and lighting make the stop signs visible enough? Are there stop signs on both sides of the road, or only one side. At that intersection, I think there is only one at the far right side.

One factor is that in areas where there are fewer businesses, like that part of Northside drive, it’s less obvious that you’re exiting the highway.

Also, the HOV exits tend to be very long, very straight, and they use few signs.

This was driver error. Did the road design cause the crash? No. Could better signage or a flashing yellow light have prevented it? I say yes.

Rumble strips are an excellent suggestion, as others have noted.

My thoughts and prayers go to those kids and their parents.

By John M. Davis

March 2, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

I have come close to mistaking the exit at Northside Drive as a continuation of the express lane because of the dimond markings and the almost straight drive onto the ramp. It is understandable that a driver unfamiliar with the road might miss the signs in the dark of night, particularly going at a regular interstate speed.

By Don

March 2, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

The road system in georgia is terribe!!!!!!!!! That whole area should be redone. Try to get to I85 from the Northside how many lanes do you have to get across. The ramp that the bus took should have been an entrance ramp to 75s. The driver thought he was in the HOV lane thats why he did not stop for the sign. I have talked to the DOT many times and there are many mistakes that we the people have to pay for. To many people paid for this mistake.

By Tony

March 2, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

6 people died this morning what other message does the DOT need to get rid of this problem.

By Maggie

March 2, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

Absolutely!! It is a very confusing exit and I can easily understand how somehow not familiar with the road, in the dark, early in the morning could think it was a continuation of the HOV lane. I don’t think the driver realized they had exited the freeway until it was too late. From an eyewitness report the bus did not slow down once on the exit ramp. It is such a tragedy.

By K

March 2, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

This intersection is a problem for a lot of people. I don’t believe it is marked well at all. Just because people who live in the area or drive by frequently, have it figured it out doesn’t mean others can figure out where there coming and going on that overpass. I lived off Northside Drive right there near the overpass for years and I was constantly dodging drivers who couldn’t navigate it and I was involved in an accident, which totaled my car, because the other driver was confused by the signs and couldn’t figure out where she was going.

I have always thought the overpass was poorly designed and potentially dangerous (though I never imagined this type of accident). The screwed up design of the HOV lanes and the overpass are moot point, they’re built, they’re there, DOT isn’t going to rip it down. They deperately need to re-examine the signage.

God bless the families affected by this tragedy!

By momma

March 2, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

It’s a confusing lane and dangerous as is getting onto 75 from the entrance down the road and watching the fools try to get all the way over for 85. Atlanta roads aren’t designed well and that HOV exit and entrance is just flat out stupid. Why does the HOV people need a separate entrance and exit anyway, when you can just work your way over when you see the HOV lane with the broken dashed lines. That’s another problem, people racing to the HOV lane even when it’s a solid line. Just slow down and wait or get up a lot earlier. My prayers go out to the bus drivers family regardless of the mistake, he’s human, and so were the other lives lost.

By Diana

March 2, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Aother city I’ve visited (Houston?) has HOV lanes that run down the center of the interstate (meaning that they are entered onto from the left lane) and are accessible by an “on-ramp” type entrances. Perhaps the bus driver missed the “exit” sign and thought he was merely continuing onto a restricted-access section of the HOV lane?

However you look at this, it’s a combination of driver error and non-standard interstate highway design.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Plus size - assume the driver saw the stop sign at the top of the ramp - by that time it is too late to stop unless you’re going maybe 25 to 35 mph.

By mike

March 2, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Sadly, its the american way today, lets blame someone else. Lets blame the HOV lane, City of Atlanta, GDOT, Bus company, tire manufacturer, Hey how adout the driver of the bus, maybe he was at fault and is to blame. I know thats difficult for alot of people to try and grasp.

By Scott

March 2, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Ya think…..

By j.p.

March 2, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Just curious about the intersection there. From what I heard so far there is only a stop sign at the top of the ramp? That just doesn’t seem sufficient enough on an exit ramp that is that short and I am too surprised that this is the first such incident.

FWIW, it appears that the driver was only operating the bus for an hour.

By Zach

March 2, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Enough of the design bashing; that’s completely irrelevant. This man was a trained driver operating a huge passenger vehicle, not some grandma out for a Sunday spin.

I say confusion, fatigue, excessive (possibly) speed, and distraction were the cause of this horrific accident.

And yes, the image of the victims lying on the concrete is completely inappropriate; they should be removed.

By Tonya

March 2, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

After reading this, I have to agree with what almost everyone has said on this post. Yes, most of the time there are idiots driving on ATL roads and have no common sense or knowledge on driving; however, as someone who is not from the ATL area, driving in ATL IS confusing. I can easily see why the HOV exit could be confusing to someone who is not from here. ATL does not have enough signage to let drivers know what is coming up ahead. It’s not until you are practically upon your exit that you realize what is happening. Left exiting or entering is just CRAZY! Also, some of the designs of ATL roads are too short. Exiting Howell Mill from 75N is case in point. You have maybe 50ft to exit while at the same time someone is entering. Clearly a poor design. Driving in ATL - poor design and idiot drivers are the reasons for our accidents.

By Greg

March 2, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

I think Joe nailed it:

However, the HOV ramp at Northside Drive is just north of the HOV exit lane to the downtown connector. I wonder if the driver of the bus mistakenly thought he was on that exit instead?

The driver may not have been familiar with Atlanta, but may have been told that, in order to stay in the HOV lane, he needed to exit left as he approached downtown.

By Gus

March 2, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

This looks to be a case of driver error, plain and simple. However, this exit should be more clearly marked to ensure that no one ever makes this misstake again.

By Melissa

March 2, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

YES it is a HUGE problem. Three years ago I wrote a letter to the AJC about that exit after a young mother got on I-75 going the wrong way and got killed. Several deaths have happened because of that ramp not being clearly marked. Someone out there look at the stats - that ramp is dangerous and needs to be closed!

By Andrew

March 2, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

There are several bad ramps off of I-75.
The worst has to be I-75S to I-85N. I call the dirt pit behind the curve ‘The Landing Zone’ because of all of the car parts left there from past wrecks.

Even worse,2nd 285W exit comes to mind. A couple of years ago they added a sign that looks like a cursive Q, but you only know what the sign means if you’ve been around that exit before. If you don’t know the exit, you are all of a sudden faced with a sharp right turn and very little markings. Again, there is an area right behind this curve full of car debris.

As for the left exits in the HOV lanes, I could see how someone would get confused. Seems like the words “LANE ENDS 200 FEET” wouldn’t have been that expensive. Maybe even a red flasher at the top of the ramp.

By Jennifer

March 2, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

I certainly sympathize with everyone who lost their lives in this horrible accident. I have never had a problem with that ramp, and I remember when it was installed 10 years ago. It’s hard for me to fathom that someone could go up that ramp at 60 or 70 miles an hour and believe that such a sharp incline would still be part of an interstate. I’m also confused as to why there are no signs of the bus braking before it happened. Like someone else said, this ramp hasn’t caused problems for 10 years. You can’t redo everything on the interstates due to error by one driver.

By ATL Driver

March 2, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

Sadly, this accident costs four young people and a married couple (the bus driver and his wife) their lives. Do we have bad roads in Atlanta? Yes, of course. Was this wreck caused by bad markings/signage? I’d bet it played some role in the tragedy. Let’s all remember, though, that this is what it was — a tragedy. The parents of four kids woke up this morning to learn that their child was dead. Students awakened to news that their classmates were injured or dead. A small close-knit school will suffer the grief of this tragedy for some time. So for the person who noted that “God killed Christian kids,” remember — we all die at some point, Christian or not. For the commenters who are vehemently blaming the bus driver — remember that he too was human, just like the rest of us who have all made a mistake at one time or another. Is the road where the tragedy occurred confusing? In my opinion, yes. And we’ll likely see changes made in the next decade to make this section of highway less dangerous. But the most important thing to remember here is that four young people and two adults lost their lives early this morning, and the world of their friends and family will be forever changed. Like most Atlantans, my heart goes out to these people. I hope that the message they get from all of us is one of caring, not one of blame and arrogance.

By So Sad

March 2, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

I agree with Byron…To see the bodies of the students lying on the ground should be removed from the website. I lost my son almost two years ago and I could not imagine looking at the photos and seeing my child lying there.

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

I feel for the parents and surviving kids…and the family of the bus driver. But that ramp does have a pretty significant incline… AND a stop sign at the end…and concrete walls on each side. The driver should have either noticed the difference in incline or how totally different the lane was to the freeway. At least in enough time that he could have stopped before the fence. According to the reports, there we no skid marks anywhere on Northside at all. That means no reaction at all…and that is at least a 100 yard distance.

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

C’mon Mike. I’ve driven enough around here and elsewhere to know that poor roadway and signage design are definitely responsible for a host of accidents. The comments make clear that poor design and signage are at least a part of the problem. Sure, lets acknowledge that the driver may have been partly culpable, but good roadway design would not lead to that kind of accident except for the most drunk of drivers.

By Chuck

March 2, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

and why should the bus worry about using the HOV lane anyway? Not like at 5:30am (yes, even in Atlanta) there was much traffic at all in any of the other 5 lanes…

By mjones

March 2, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

This particular area is a problem. My daily commute is from the West side so my experience with 75 is limited. The ONLY time I have used the Northside entry to 75N was returning from an appointment at Piedmont Hospital. I missed the ramp to enter; turned around down the street to came back and mistakenly used the HOV entrance ramp. Yes, a (not so friendly)cop was waiting and told me “ignorance was no excuse.” However, there was a line of ignorant drivers behind me! Apparently I was not the only one who did not see the sign, which leads me to believe it is not clearly marked. I also recall tall bushes while trying to find a sign. I can see how someone not familiar with Atlanta combined with driving in the dark would have a problem if the exit ramp is as poorly marked. My prayers are with the families involved.

By casey

March 2, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

The obvious answer is that it was a combination of driver error and a confusing exit ramp.

By Jeff Tingle

March 2, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

As a trucker that has run all 48 States and Canada, I find Atlanta one of the WORST for commercial vehicles. Actually, I’ve never been inside I-285 on I-75 and I believe the “Thru trucks must use I-285” restriction is as much for our protection as much as Atlantans wanting to keep away from trucks. IMHO, the design of on/off ramps contribute to traffic accidents FAR more than officials are willing to admit. Truck lane restrictions are UNSAFE and are solely a revenue enhancement tool. My biggest fear in Atlanta was that I’d be SO wrapped up in staying with the ever-changing truck lanes that I’d hit another vehicle…

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

I think it was entirely appropriate to show the dead bodies on the concrete. That’s the ultimate reality of the world’s most stupid transportation system. Primates should not be driving anything that dangerous. Just look at the stats. That photo should wake all of us up to start thinking “outside of the car (or in this case, bus).”

By BJ

March 2, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

I agree. The signage is horrible and it’s easy to turn onto the HOV-only northbound onramp by accident. I too have been greeted by an officer.

By People

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure if everyone grasps this, but the FEDERAL interstates are not designed just for local understanding. I don’t mean to diminish what happened today, but all this “if you’re not from here, this is really confusing” talk is ludicrous. DC/Washington’s interstate layout is different, Dallas’ system is different, etc. I don’t drive to/through those cities expecting them to follow the “Atlanta” formula. I pay attention and adjust accordingly. For those of you who’ve PYSICALLY been in ATL all your lives, there are MANY exits on the left in large cities.

By Elaine

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I’ve thought the exit was a problem as soon as it was built…over 10 years ago…before it was HOV. Generally speaking, none of us are accustomed to exiting to the left, in the middle of the freeway. It’s just not the norm. And on top of that, the ramp is not really long enough to decelerate from “fast lane” speeds to a complete stop at the stop sign. And those of us who may drive it every day in an average vehicle don’t know what it may have been like for someone not accustomed to the interchange driving a CHARTER BUS to try to slow down and navigate that precarious spot. Those things don’t slow down/stop/hairpin turn like average vehicles do.

Yes, this was the exact same interchange that confused a driver into entering I75 the wrong way. That accident was in the dark as well.

So sad…

By Katie

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Well it’s too bad that the bus driver and his wife, and four young baseball players had to die. I’m sure the bus driver would rather be in prison for his negligence rather than have the blood of five other innocent people on his hands.

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I think it was entirely appropriate to show the dead bodies on the concrete. That’s the ultimate reality of the world’s most stupid transportation system. Primates should not be driving anything that dangerous. Just look at the stats. That photo should wake all of us up to start thinking “outside of the car (or in this case, bus).”

By Driver

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I am not familiar with this exit ramp at all, but it seems to me that judging from the number of people on here that have said it is confusing or a problem, that some people would find it difficult to figure out, especially someone not familiar with the road. I notice that most of the people saying it is not a problem are people who drive on it frequently. Obviously, if it confuses some of these bloggers, it could have very well confused the bus driver. Folks like to think it is always human error, that way it separates it from being something that could happen to them, because they’re supposedly “smarter.”

By People

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure if everyone grasps this, but the FEDERAL interstates are not designed just for local understanding. I don’t mean to diminish what happened today, but all this “if you’re not from here, this is really confusing” talk is ludicrous. DC/Washington’s interstate layout is different, Dallas’ system is different, etc. I don’t drive to/through those cities expecting them to follow the “Atlanta” formula. I pay attention and adjust accordingly. For those of you who’ve PHYSICALLY been in ATL all your lives, note that there are MANY exits on the left in large cities.

By Tancred

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

I think it was entirely appropriate to show the dead bodies on the concrete. That’s the ultimate reality of the world’s most stupid transportation system. Primates should not be driving anything that dangerous. Just look at the stats. That photo should wake all of us up to start thinking “outside of the car (or in this case, bus).”

By Jack

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

If any good come from this tragedy, let it be a vast upgrading of highway exit signage on high-volume roads in the metro area. I think we’ve all been surprised in traffic when the lane suddenly exits almost without warning. Maybe this horrible crash will awaken GA-DOT to the need for better advance notice at exits everywhere.

By MLJ

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

It’s absolutely a problem. Just because there aren’t MORE accidents there doesn’t mean it’s not a dicey place. I live 2 blocks away and I encounter confused drivers EVERY time I’m in that area. Near misses just mean that motorists got off lucky.

When I first moved here, I too got confused and entered the highway from the HOV on-ramp instead of the regular one. Thank goodness I didn’t not get a ticket.

We also have to remember that that route is marked for folks coming from I-75 south to the Georgia Dome, Congress Center and Phillips Arena. You have people who are unfamiliar with the area over there all the time.

Better signage and a flashing yellow off that off-ramp would make a HUGE difference.

By Chris

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Not to put any blame on the bus driver, as some have, we don’t know the whole story. The truth is we need to be more careful out there…EVERYONE! Maybe there was driver fault, bu tthe fact remains we have all messed up, or made a mistake like driving. Lets take a lesson from this and be more aware of how we are driving and pay less attention to our cell phones, computers, and other distractions.

By Dre

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

If you’re paying attention to what you’re doing, there is NO EXCUSE to exit the freeway by mistake and at a high rate of speed like that. Now if you’re sleepy, impaired, or just flat out stupid, yes you might have a problem with that exit.

By holly

March 2, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

This just looks like an unfortunate set of circumstances, maybe the driver wasn’t 100% paying attention and the exit is a bit odd and not the best layout. Given that there was no attempt to brake it seems more than clear he thought he was still on the interstate up until just before he went over. And echoing others, I was absolutely stunned to see the picture of the victims (without any warning), dead bodies of what we know to be kids laying out on the interstate under bloody sheets with their bare feet sticking out, AJC take it down. You know families of the victims could be checking local news sources for information and that isn’t what they need to be seeing from a photo link from the front page of our paper. Come on.

By Pizen

March 2, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Well, given that the bus was traveling “at highway speed” according to GHP, 100 yards would be covered in no time. And let’s assume the driver realized his mistake as he shot up the ramp - there’s no way that bus is going to come to a stop in that limited distance. I’ve driven in several large cities, and I think that in general, the signage, lighting, and overall road striping/marking in Atlanta is poor by comparison. And the intersection designs are even worse. Others have commented on the 75SB entrance from Howell Mill and the 75SB exit for I-85; what about the Midtown workers trying to get to GA 400? How about some lights and better signage at the 85NB exit to N Druid Hills? California’s systems of road markings, rumble strips, signage, etc. might be overkill to some, but I wonder if overkill is really possible. I’d just as soon spend some dollars and do it right.

By Dee

March 2, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

I think the ramp may be confusing for drivers who arent familiar with the highway. They were traveling from another state, so the bus driver obviously wasnt familiar with the ramp. I think it is a terrible tragedy, and placing the blame will not erase this tragedy, but the city should ensure that proper signs are posted, if they feel that was the case, in order to prevent something like this from happening again. But, lets be real, the city of Atlanta can put up as many signs and motorists would probably still zoom past so fast without paying attention, the driving in Atlanta is horrible.

By Erica

March 2, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

It is definitely dangerous. I was just saying how dangerous it is to a friend last week. The signs are too close to the exit. You don’t know what mistake you’ve made until it’s too late. It’s just like the signage for the 75/85N split. There are daily accidents due to signage being too close to the division of the highway. People change lanes at the last minute and have accidents. The person who said that people know that they are illegally going into the HOV lane from Northside Dr. are mistaken. I’m sure people do do that, but it is also very easy to make that mistake and once you do it’s too late. Non-Atlantans can’t be expected to know all of the kooky things about our highways. Another very dangerous intersection is the ramp onto Langford Parkway Eastbound from 285S.

By E

March 2, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Yep, everybody speeds in that location and the signs are quite confusing, especially if you are trying to get on 85 North just past the Northside exit. Definitely not well-designed.

By Sharon

March 2, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

No, the exit isn’t a problem. I travel that route often and there are signs that clearly state it is an exit. There are no HOV lanes at that point. The question is how fast was the driver going not to notice that he was getting off the highway and not to be able to stop in time?

By Pat

March 2, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

I almost the same experience on this ramp 5 years ago when I move here from Texas. First of all a left exit is unusual in itself. Secondly, there is an HOV sign on the exit which I mistook for the actual direction of the HOV lane. Halfway up the ramp I realized there was a stop sign. NOT GOOD PLANNING. And finally, any city that has its major highways going west to go east and east to go west like the 75/85 north interchange, should not be surprised by this screwup in design.

And to the guy who said it has only happened once in 10 years I can only say that he should call the parents of the kids that were killed and explain it to them because he is obviously a perfect driver and this would not have happened had he been at the wheel. Give me a break.

By Tonya

March 2, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Well said!

By Ross

March 2, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

We had ramps like this in St. Louis but they were all heavily marked with flashing yellow lights and signs. The first time I exited this ramp on my motorcycle I was thinking how dangerous it could be if you weren’t familiar with it, because to all appearances it is just a highway lane - no curves or warning lights or anything. Yes, it is well marked as an exit but the very design requires of a lot of “STOP THIS MEANS YOU” and flashing lights.

-drl

By Too sad

March 2, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Did the driver use a GPS navigation unit? Maybe the nav unit got it wrong and it directed him to turn left too early?

The HOV lane for 75 south splits off to the left from I-75 about 1/4 mile South of Northside.

To change the subject: Mark my words, there will be bad fatal crash on GA-400 with those bus lanes. Whoever thought THAT was a good idea probably was the one who designed those stupid HOV lanes and their weird on and off ramps.

By Houston

March 2, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Is it a problem? If a bus drives off a bridge at 60 mph without attempting to stop, then it’s a problem.

By Patty

March 2, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Its very dangerous exit. I almost had a wreck twice before I realized how the exit worked. Traffic is so bad and vehicles fly on that part of I-75. If you are new to the area I can see how this wreck happened. I have traveled I-75 for 45 years going into Atlanta from North Marietta and still travel most weekends. When I heard about the accident this morning on TV, I said I bet this had happened due to that Exit.

This is only one of many bad exits around Atlanta and Metro Atlanta.

By Lewis

March 2, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

I’ve never been confused by this exit. From the HOV lane you exit left and the signs clearly state that. Plus, the lighting is adequate in that area.

I heard that the bus never attempted to slow down. It that’s true, I assume driver error or mechanical failure. The exit layout is fine in my opinion.

By Ron Fritz

March 2, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

On a dark, rainy night, to someone passing through Atlanta, I think a left hand HOV only exit after miles and miles of nothing but right hand exits is an accident waiting to happen again.

By Michelle

March 2, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

I don’t get downtown that often. When I do, it can be very confusing and dangerous if you are not used to driving down that way. And I have lived in GA for 15 years!!! The signs are getting better, but there is definitely room for more improvement.

By S

March 2, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

I’ve lived in ATL long enough to know that the signs aren’t exactly accurate. I’ve seen signs that’ll say you have a mile and quarter to an exit when in reality it’s a half mile to a mile. So if you don’t live here, that’s an exit you’ll miss.

That Northside HOV exit blends in with the lane itself.  At that hour of the morning, anyone can roll right off it before they figure out what they've done.  So just imagine what someone who isn't from around here will do.

 Personally I don't think you should have an exit coming out of a fast lane to begin with.

By Jason

March 2, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

I could potentially understand why the driver of the bus could have been confused. I do recall that the signage there is a little lacking, and many other metro areas have elevated carpool lanes above freeways (the 110 freeway in Los Angeles, for example).

Someone not familiar with the layout of the Northside exit could easily have assumed the incline was nothing more than the carpool lane starting to run above the freeway - hence, no slowdown on the incline.

By joe

March 2, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Terrible tragedy, one that could have been avoided. I too have used the Northside entrance & exit ramps and have never been confused by them. I guess an out of towner might get a bit confused, but how could the driver not have noticed he was the only 1 going uphill off I-75 towards a bridge? What, did he think his lane was the only lane that magically jumps OVER the bridge? C’mon people….this was just inconceivable driver error. If it was bad design, you would’ve seen this type of accident there many times by this point. Chalk it up to another tour bus using excessive speed mixed with inattentive driving resulting in a horrible fatal accident.

By julie

March 2, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Are you kidding me? YES, it’s a bad design. It is an AWFUL and dangerous design, even for people such as myself - a native Atlantan. Not only are the exits from 75 North and Southbound in that area confusing, the Nothbound HOV only lane from Northside Drive is ridiculous. Even trying to exit onto Northside Drive heading North on 75 is dangerous because you have to get over, over, over quickly while people are trying to get ONTO 75…..it’s extremely dangerous.What were they thinking - and who are they, exactly? I think we have a right to know who the designers of this dangerous morass are, don’t you?