Talk of the Town

By Blackwolf

July 21, 2005 05:39 PM | Link to this

There is not much worse in Grand Theft Auto than in movies such as Natural Born Killers or Kill Bill. While I am a gamer and believe that Rockstar Games has done some innovative things in gaming (with open-ended gaming), I feel horrible that most of the time when I have to defend video games, I have to defend Rockstar Games. I do not enjoy how they lied about this particular issue, saying that the code was all added in by the modification and then backtracking. Rockstar has made it much more difficult for game companies everywhere because they tried to thumb their nose to everyone else.

That being said, I want to point out that it isn’t a “simple download” to unlock the content. The download is the easy part, it’s the actual installation and modification of the PC game that is more difficult, and if a child can find the download and install it successfully, chances are they can find much worse websites that have real porn instead of pixellated porn. (And BTW, the male is clothed in the PC version, and both parties are clothed in the console version that is unlockable via a third party device called an Action Replay.)

I played Doom when it first came out in 1993. I was 16, and I’ve never touched a gun that wasn’t at Q-Zar, before or since. I have a horrible aim. Yet, I’m a decent shot in a computer game. Why? Because using a keyboard and a mouse (or a console gamepad) is a lot different than actually holding a gun. I’m sure that watching network television would teach me how to hold and aim better than a computer game would.

I really think that it’s the parents’ responsibility to monitor what their child does. My parents did that with me, and felt I was mature enough to play Doom at 16. They were right. I’m a well rounded individual, and I still enjoy going into GTA and just letting off some steam, but I’m more into playing games like Katamari Damacy.

The ESRB ratings, although Rockstar went around them for that (and I think that’s very bad and Rockstar should be punished,) are more prominent than movie ratings. I picked up a DVD of Natural Born Killers, and there is no information on the front of the box as to the R-Rating. All it has on the front is a picture of the wholesome bartender in Cheers. Obviously, this must be a children’s movie that I can buy little Timmy, right? The rating is in small font on the back of the box. Contrast that to video game ratings, which are in the bottom left corner of every game box.

Do I think Rockstar should be punished for not doing proper Quality Assurance testing when they took out the feature but left the underlying code in? Sure. I’m a programmer and have left code in on applications that was unfinished or not needed in the final product, but it wasn’t anything like what Rockstar left in. Do I think all video games should be villified because of the actions of a single publisher? No more than I think the entire movie industry should be villified because of Oliver Stone or Quentin Tarentino.

By Concerned Parent

July 21, 2005 05:59 PM | Link to this

I appreciate the stores looking out for my family. However, if parents were parents, these games would not be a factor. I have an Xbox, GTA:SA and a 10 year old son. He knows that it is not a game for him. Walmart has it set up that if a questionable game or movie is purchased, it asks for ID. As time consuming as it might be, I thank them for the safety net. Stores shouldn’t have to take up the slack that parents fail to step up to.

By E. G. Salomon

July 21, 2005 06:50 PM | Link to this

As a casual gamer myself, I can say this issue’s pretty much 50/50 and much older than most people think.

It goes way back to the 90’s when games like “Mortal Kombat” (a fighting game in which you could kill your opponent in a rather flashy way after you defeat him/her) and “Night Trap” (an interactive “movie” in which you get to kill people in a “clever” way), first came out. From there, it has been a never-ending battle that eventually led to the creation of them (somewhat flawed) rating system.

Videogames can be a double edged weapon; they can be good and/or be bad for kids. On the positive side, they can help develop hand-eye coordination, cognizant thinking for problem solving, and of course, stress reliever. On the other hand, they can be bad for your health (and social life) when abused, can lead to addiction (like those hooked on online games like EverQuest and World of Warcraft), and in very rare cases, lead to bad examples (like shooting someone).

Lately videogames have been in a silent decay for a while, usually replacing essentials like gameplay and plots for things like flashy graphics, big explosions and the use of controversial topics like sex and gore (you know, just like Hollywood’s doing with movies lately); a really original and good game coming out every blue moon… The media itself has been shaping this image for years, because they know it is what is going to sell in the long run…

Should videogames have all the blame? In my opinion, no.

You see, the ESRB’s already doing enough warning unaware parents about what can you expect on games. We don’t need the government getting on everyone’s cases, because that’ll be usually worse. What we really need is parents and gamers alike taking responsibility for once of their own actions.

I can’t tell how many times I’ve seen a parent buy the latest version of GTA for their 8 year old kid. They need to understand that a videogame console is NOT a cheap babysitter. They need to get involved with their kids (playing with them if possible), make them understand what’s right and what’s wrong, the difference between fictional and real violence… You get the idea.

I can proudly say that my mother taught me values well, to the point that if I do something wrong, I must assume responsibility of my own actions and not blame the media, unlike some people out there.

In short, I’m just saying that it’s about time people be responsible about their own actions…

By tony b

July 21, 2005 09:47 PM | Link to this

to whom it may concern the content of video game now are for the older crowd any way that’s way they ask for i.d’s if an adult buys this game for a child they are stupid you have the control in what your child plays that why they put a parental advisory on everything

By raceman94

July 21, 2005 09:54 PM | Link to this

I agree with Blackwolf. GTA: San Andreas isn’t any worse than anything else on the shelf, movie or otherwise. And, does anyone else find it stange that it was Senator Clinton who made the biggest fuss over this? she’s about the most crooked peice of trash you will ever come across.

By Iridium

July 21, 2005 11:12 PM | Link to this

I recently read an essay by one of the survivors of the Columbine incident. I won’t copy all of it here, of course, but he made some excellent points about gaming, including (especially) the GTA series that I’ll add here.

The lure of these games, for most gamers, is not the sex or the violence, the reference to drugs, the ability to kill whomever or pick up hookers. The lure is the open endedness. These games were some of the first to give players such a wide variety of activities to participate in, and that is why they are so popular.

Myself (and the author of the essay), I have to admit that I have gone into the games and picked up a prostitute, and I have gone on shooting sprees. But these activities are short lived: once I had done them in the game, I saw that there was no real point in doing so, and gave it up. I don’t shoot every officer I come across in the game. The people who do enjoy the game solely for the purpose of killing officers, the stereotype of gamers that overreactive parents and legislators hold to so dearly, had problems with violence before they got to the game.

I’d also like to point out another game series, The Sims. The series is rated T for Teen, and is generally marketed at that demographic. The point is that you can create a family and control their everyday life. On the surface it seems fine, but nobody points out the “dark side” of them. For example, a patch that is vastly more common than the GTA one, removes the blurring that occurs when a sim undresses to use the toilet or to shower. Worse, in the online edition of the game, an underage woman ran a sort of digital brothel that had no sort of age verification and featured simulated child prostitution. Though this did arrive in the media, it was a very short lived story.

In the end, GTA is being picked on because it is popular for parents to pick on it. The real issue is irresponsoble parenting.

By jeremy

July 21, 2005 11:52 PM | Link to this

I think its terrible that in a game where you shoot people in the face, bang prostitutes, traffic drugs, steal cars, and terrorize police officers you have this kind of animated smut. Its terrible Rockstar would force this smut into our homes; with the aid of custom software modifications and a handful of access codes that could potentially be used with the purchase of a third party accessory.

By Rob

July 22, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this

When the right to censor music (through age verification indentfication and explicit langauge labels) was given the big federal daddy (to replace responsible parenting) why would he not also step in to monitor your children’s video games for you?

By BigD

July 22, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this

Jeremy, did you say Rockstar “forced” this into our household? Really? Gun to the head and everything? Sorry, that must have been traumatic!

By StealthWizard

July 22, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

With names like BlackWolf and Raceman94, it is obvious the only action they are going to see is from a video game. Good luck guys!

By Lee

July 22, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

I think that its sad that everytime something bad happens some people always want to blame music, movies, T.V., and video games. This is not a game for minors, it is clearly stated on the cover. Now b/c some people don’t want to or won’t pay attention to what their child is doing others have to suffer. I’m 22 and I would never let my 15 yr old little brother play GTA: SA. Most so called parents always want to blame everything and everyone else for their lack of parenting. Apparently they feel that it’s someone else’s responsiblity to watch their kids. If any parent bought their MINOR child this game and was later offended by its content they can not blame anyone but themselves. Bottom line if parents would actually act like parents we wouldn’t have this problem.

By Great Parent

July 22, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

Is it wrong that I asked for GTA: SA on my new born sons registry at Target?

By imamom

July 22, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

I’m a mom of 3 teen/pre-teen boys and am very careful about what games they play. I agree that it is the parents’ responsibility to know what their children are doing, but it is nice to know the safty nets are there; however, the safety nets aren’t everywhere. The parents have to make it a point to be involved and know what their kids are doing.

On this topic of M games, what’s your take on Halo? It’s also an M game that Teens think they should be able to play. I keep hearing “it’s not that bad.” My 11-y-o’s friend’s dad bought it for him. So it’s there whenever my son goes to his house. And whenever we go into the game store, they have it out there for them to play — no ID required. Just curious.

By Blackwolf

July 22, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this

With names like BlackWolf and Raceman94, it is obvious the only action they are going to see is from a video game. Good luck guys!

Sorry, “StealthWizard”. Just because you’re unsuccessful with a name like that doesn’t mean the rest of us are.

I am in approval of retailers carding minors to buy M-rated games in a voluntary manner, just like how movie theaters voluntarily card for R-rated movies. I don’t think the government should sign it into law, but I think retailers should step up and do it for the industry as a whole. Many do this already, and I applaud them. And I also applaud the parents that I see with their children actually taking the five seconds to read the label before blindingly walking up to the counter and buying whatever their kid handed them.

I would much rather make it more difficult for a 14 year old to buy GTA than for there not to be a GTA at all.

By Informed Reader

July 22, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

The concerned parents are freaked out about this one little game. It had the “M” rating which is just like an “R” rated movie. “R” rated movies have sex scenes yet If a video game has it the ignorant and already biased over-protective parents freak out about it. Then the game gets pulled off the shelves of every major chain which the parents are thankful for. The parents don’t have anything to worry if they were doing their job and not let their little kids play “M” rated games. But, the big companies have to pull this game of shelves just so that parents can do their job correctly. It is stupid that the “AO” rating is even a big deal and that companies won’t even sell it. Parents and other individuals find it scary that games are made with this label. This just reflects our society. Many people in this society, like Hilary, thinks video games are just as bad as alchohol and cigerrates. There is no study that even comes close to proving this. Our society is pretty much intolerant and close-minded about anything we find strange. Other countries, like England and Canada, do not have this problem. The problem is that many people in this country are so close-minded that things like violence in video games and sex are treated as horrendous. Maybe if parents would actually do their job we wouldn’t have this problem. Also, if our country wasn’t so ignorant and close-minded than this wouldn’t be an issue.

By Blackwolf

July 22, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Halo, to me, is comparable to a typical action movie. There is some blood (and alien, purple blood) and violence (it’s all about shooting the evil aliens) but that’s about it. And the blood isn’t all that bad, really…No guts spilling out or anything. But, because of the existence of violence and blood, it gets an M-rating, but to me personally it’s a LOT tamer than something like GTA or God of War.

If you would like some advice on your specific situation, I’d talk to the parents of your child’s friend about Halo and maybe they can shed some light on what they see in it that allows their child to play it. I do not have children, and every child is different anyway, so I can’t give a blanket opinion on if an 11-year old should play Halo. Some 11-year olds I would think it’s okay, others are not.

I applaud you for taking an active role and asking questions rather than immediately villifying. It’s refreshing.

By Chip

July 22, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

I am extremely upset to hear that R* had to halt production, lower their expected earnings, and hve their games ripped off the shelves ALL because of a computer hacker. The content was NOT accessible until this PatrickW jerk started tinkering with their code. The game is a Mature rated game that has sold 5 million copies worldwide. As an adult, I personally could care less what the rating is - I’d buy is as A.O. But I think R* got a VERY raw deal and even worse, that frigid witch Hillary Clinton comes out looking like SHE did this.

I went to the “hot coffee” mod page yesterday and there was a note posted by PatrickW that said “out of respect for Rockstar, I have removed the mod”. That guy better sleep with one eye open from now on. “Out of respect” my butt - you just royally screwed a major company with your hacking and I personally hope you are held accountable for your actions.

By Chip

July 22, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

And to stay somewhat on topic, I think parents are completely responsible for what games their children play. The ratings are there. The “M” rated games got that rating for a reason, be it language or graphic violence or sexual themes. GTA:SA IS an “M” rated game..and a VERY good one. Honestly, I think games like Gran Turismo 4 are almost “worse” because of the stress they can cause from losing a close race - LOL. Maybe it’s just me..haha.

By Jack Bear

July 22, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

People,

Maybe Quality Assurance failed, maybe not. The point is that the “Adult Only” code was designed for the game and left to be accessed. Given the power of the internet. Do you believe that this would stay hidden ?

1.) Parents wake up and take charge of your home life and children. 2.) Writers of game software, who in the world do you thank you are kidding ?

If the software people are going to play hide and seek with the code. Then they deserve to be legislated. Otherwise, clean your code. This should apply to all levels of programming. I rather have code that does as designed and not have cheats, codes and hacks that will present an issue or concern for me.

Jack Bear

By Kevin

July 22, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

Chip, are you serious? You are blaming the “computer hacker”? Please, tell me you are kidding! Let me guess, you are a Rockstar shareholder?

I think its pretty obvious Clinton is attaching herself to this issue to boost her stock with conservative voters. She has been hard at work convincing everyone that she is now a moderate. Extreme candidates seldom win elections.

By Kurtis R.E. Segars

July 22, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Thank God this game will be pulled from stores with a 17+ rating and replaced with an 18+ rating. For a minute there, I was worried I would have to parent my children.

By Blackwolf

July 22, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Kevin,

The reason he is blaming a “computer hacker” is because it was essentially hackers who edited game files that replaced the hooks to the game code that Rockstar Games removed. The problem here, and one that Rockstar should be punished for, is that they kept the actual code in. Whether they did it so they wouldn’t accidentally break other parts of the code by removing it (it happens, sadly) or on purpose so people could “find” it, it doesn’t matter, they should be punished for keeping it in there, and for deceiving the ESRB, other game developers, and the consumers.

Had the Dutch modder not gone through with a hex editor to the game files on the PC version, the content would never have been found. THAT is what Chip is referring to.

Now, before you ask me if I’m a Rockstar shareholder, I’m not. Rockstar has damaged the credibility and the reputation of EVERYONE who works in the game industry, and I think that they should be punished for it. It’s now going to be much harder to defend video games because of this stunt that one company has pulled. Now, we’re all “lazy software programmers.” Most people in the industry I know are upset and disappointed in Rockstar, because they know they’ll get the backlash from it, and they’re calling for something to be done to Rockstar.

I think something needs to be done about ROCKSTAR, not about video games in general, because the ESRB and the industry is not the problem - they were deceived just like the consumers were. It’s no coincidence that 95% of the time that video game violence or sex has been in the media, it’s been a Rockstar game. (Grand Theft Auto series, Manhunt, and State of Emergency are all by Rockstar. The sad part is, the last two games are genuinely bad games that aren’t really any fun at all, but they sold well based on the media attention of the shock value.)

By jennifer

July 22, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

How about parents start being parents.

I am a parent and I don’t purchase things I don’t want my kids to watch.

I had this conversation a few days ago when this ‘news’ first came out and I had a woman tell me she doesn’t have time to make sure of everything her little darling is doing because she works two jobs. So, now it’s society’s job to raise her kids? If it takes a village to raise a child - this villager is busy. Try raising your own kids. You raise yours the way you want and I will raise mine the way that I want.

Our society portrays violence as ok but as soon as someone has sex, or simulated sex, everyone loses their minds. Sex is completely natural and if we treated as such there are a lot of things that would be different. But, instead we treat it as dirty.

This makes me very upset. Parents always want an excuse to shield their little darlings from everything. How about not buying it for them? Ever try that one? How about not letting the computer babysit them?

Be parents!

By jennifer

July 22, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

I have Halo and my kids play Halo. They know the difference between reality and a video game just as they know the difference between a tv program and reality. It’s our jobs as parents to teach them this.

I don’t have an issue with them playing it (they are 11, 14, and 15). They started out playing Half-Life and there is blood shedding in it, too. It’s a little more ‘realistic’ if you want to consider it realistic but, again, they know the difference between reality and gaming.

But, in the end I suppose it is up to the parental unit(s) to know if their child is capable of handling such a game.

How about going over to the friend’s house and checking it out for yourself? That’s what I would do.

By Dennis

July 22, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

Next they will be pulling rap CDs off the shelf because of gang violence…. oh wait it already does but still sits on the shelf at your local CD store, and kids buy it with no trouble, even though it has a warning it, please if you think an AO sticker will stop kids from buying, you really need to think again…

By jeremy

July 22, 2005 09:00 PM | Link to this

BigD…little thing called sarcasm.

By Jill

July 23, 2005 02:09 AM | Link to this

Does anyone else find it hilarious that the game was pulled only AFTER the act of sex was involved? What about stealing cars? Shooting people in the head? Punching and kicking people? Isn’t, arguably, VIOLENCE worse that SEX? COME ON , HILARY! COME ON, PARENTS! You all are too skirmish. You’re only allowed to kill people in real life if you work on death row or you’re in the army (in defense, of course), and you’ve got to be at least 18 for that. This game should have been rated for 18 year olds to begin with. You can have sex legally in some states when you’re 16 or even younger.

By TN

July 23, 2005 06:37 PM | Link to this

This is the kind of crap that makes me hate the fact that I side w/ most liberals on many issues….I cannot stand to see dems, or republicans for that matter, pushing some stupid moral agenda….its a V-I-D-E-O game…it’s not real, it was already labeled mature content…..and if your child has a game labeled as such and they aren’t “mature” enough to play it, its your fault as a parent that they even have the damn game. Chances are most kids that play GTA have already seen their fill of porn via the net, get real people, I could’ve swore we had bigger things, a la Iraq, to deal with.

By Brian Curtis

July 25, 2005 07:37 AM | Link to this

Jill makes an excellent point. “We’re okay with exposing our kids to incredible and obscene amounts of violence… but now that there’s a hint of digital SEX involved, we’re outraged!”

Sheesh. Others have made the most important point already. You’re the parent; raising your kids is YOUR job, not anyone else’s.

By JD Usry

July 28, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

This is for the mom of the three boys. I am a 21 year old college student who enjoys video games occassionally. I applaud you on wanting to do what is right for your children and becoming involved in their activities.

I was nine years old when Mortal Kombat came out. I played the game at nine (without my parents consent) and it had no effect on me whatsoever. I believe that had my parents looked at the game with me and explained to me that it was inappropriate for a nine year old I would have understood. In your case, your children are a little older and Halo is a much tamer game. While I don’t plan on having children for a few more years, I believe I would allow them to play the Halo games.

The most important factor here is your involvement. If you approach your children about the game and let them know that violent behavior of any kind will not be tolerated then I think it is alright to let them have the game. Also, another good piece of advice (which was given earlier in this conversation) would be to talk to the parents of the child who is allowed to play the game.

Thanks again for being a good and loving mother, if only there were more like you.

By M.Ritval

July 29, 2005 06:43 PM | Link to this

I grew up during the 80-90's and played all those violent games out there like the original Doom, and watched slasher movies like Firday the 13th. I don't know how many remember but there was a big stink about this topic as well, back in the mid 80's I believe. According to the "experts" back then who were studying the problem I should have turned into some kind of psychopathic killer by now. The reason I obviously haven't is because my parents took the time to get me interested in other things. They taught me the difference between right and wrong, fantasy and reality. I have to applaud the others who have pointed out that too many parents these days are all too willing to blame others for the bad behavior of their children rather than look closer to home.